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OverlayHunter
09-20-2013, 03:41 PM
Does any ADW permit conditional place wagers?

green80
09-20-2013, 08:49 PM
betptc.com

OverlayHunter
09-20-2013, 11:04 PM
Thanks, green80.

Pensacola Pete
09-21-2013, 02:52 AM
Amwager does.

Ted Craven
09-21-2013, 10:34 AM
Does any ADW permit conditional place wagers?

Just to be clear, Amwager (and probably BetPTC as well) enables placing conditions on a wager made in ANY pool. The conditions can be:

1. minutes to post
2. depending on the Win odds for any horse (i.e. not just the horse you'd like to bet on) or $2 payout in any Exacta or Daily Double combination, including equal to, greater than, less than, between.

So you could make a Place bet, at 0 MTP, on a horse if its Win Odds were between 5 and 10-1. Or a Place bet if a Daily Double combo not involving this horse were to pay less than $25.

However, there is no facility to make a bet (in the Place pool or otherwise) depending on what a projected Place payout might be. I would like to see this ability for sure (or create it ...). You'd just need a 2 dimensional grid of calculated payouts, similar to an Exacta or DD grid, showing the Place payout depending on who the Winning horse was.

Not sure if this is what you were thinking, but the above is more detail about how Conditional wagering works, at least at AmWager (and at BetPTC, at least last I used it).

Cheers,

Ted

MJC922
09-21-2013, 12:07 PM
Just to be clear, Amwager (and probably BetPTC as well) enables placing conditions on a wager made in ANY pool. The conditions can be:

1. minutes to post
2. depending on the Win odds for any horse (i.e. not just the horse you'd like to bet on) or $2 payout in any Exacta or Daily Double combination, including equal to, greater than, less than, between.

So you could make a Place bet, at 0 MTP, on a horse if its Win Odds were between 5 and 10-1. Or a Place bet if a Daily Double combo not involving this horse were to pay less than $25.

However, there is no facility to make a bet (in the Place pool or otherwise) depending on what a projected Place payout might be. I would like to see this ability for sure (or create it ...). You'd just need a 2 dimensional grid of calculated payouts, similar to an Exacta or DD grid, showing the Place payout depending on who the Winning horse was.

Not sure if this is what you were thinking, but the above is more detail about how Conditional wagering works, at least at AmWager (and at BetPTC, at least last I used it).

Cheers,

Ted

Projected payouts are easy to generate but the issue is the money comes in so late I've found it useless to have this info.... I've seen the largest place overlay in the race turn into the largest place underlay while the race is in progress. Conditional bets should be offered on place and show based upon win odds (don't believe twinspires allows it though) but I suspect it would only make things worse.

What I would like to see offered is let's say in the exacta pool where you could invest an amount proportially on one horse over all of the others, not a traditional wheel but a wheel with variable amounts based upon the payoff at 0 MTP. This could be coded and the wagers quickly uploaded but I'm tired of having to code, I'd rather see it as a built-in option with the ADW of choice.

Ted Craven
09-21-2013, 12:54 PM
At AmWager, you can place a conditional bet in any pool (including Place and Show pools) based upon Win odds conditions.

Granted that late money would change a Place pool payout grid. Just like it does the Exatca grid.

At AmWager, you can create an Exacta Dutch (and in Win and Daily Double pools), with any number of horses on top and any on bottom such that the payoff is about the same for the amount invested, or - such that each Dutch returns about the same specified amount. Thus for the former, the payout varies as odds change up to the close of betting.

However, a Dutch cannot (currently) be made conditional - e.g. per your example. But it certainly could be, either by an innovative ADW or coded by oneself. I would like to see that too :) (e.g. create a Win, Exacta, DD or Place dutch, including changing the weightings per combo within your specified parameters, such that the minimum payout at x MTP is $ y; and if not, cancel either the individual offending components, or cancel everything).

Ted

Robert Goren
09-21-2013, 12:59 PM
If you think the %s jump around in the win pool as the gates open, you look at the place and show pools sometime. They are crazy.

davew
09-21-2013, 02:16 PM
I do not know how any ADW could put a conditional place bet, if it was dependent of place pay-off. I guess they could put it in off of percentage of place pool.

But if you want your bet placed if the place return would be $3.00 or higher, it does not seem possible to me.

green80
09-21-2013, 03:02 PM
you can not set a minimum payout on the place bet because it depends on the other horse that gets a place payout. You can make a place bet with the minimum win odds setting on your horse.

MJC922
09-21-2013, 03:17 PM
I do not know how any ADW could put a conditional place bet, if it was dependent of place pay-off. I guess they could put it in off of percentage of place pool.

But if you want your bet placed if the place return would be $3.00 or higher, it does not seem possible to me.

Certainly possible to base it upon the minimum place payoff, whether it's viable for the player is something else... too much volatility IMO. Now if AmTote or whomever aggregates all of these wagers could get off the antiquated two cups and a string backbone they're using to get offtrack money into the pools at something close to real-time it might become worthwhile. This late volatility is a self perpetuating issue in that people feel the need to wait until horses are loading up before they even place a bet which leads to an even greater jump after the bell. Has me looking into exactas just to gain some measure of stability.

BetPTC
09-27-2013, 12:39 PM
Correct, davew. The place or show conditional wagers, or even w/p, w/p/s or p/s, that you can make at BetPTC.com are based off the win odds.

DJofSD
09-27-2013, 01:15 PM
I tried conditional wagers using Twinspires when it was initially offered. My first and only experience was not good.

Before you try using conditional wagers, understand if there are any problems or even legitimate questions about your wager, why it did or did not get placed, etc., you will not get any substantial help. If you are looking for hard numbers such as odds at x minutes to post, you will not be able to get those. So, in other words, if you have a wager set to trigger at 3 minutes to post and the odds must be 3:1 or greater, and, the bet does not get placed but the results chart shows you runner went off at 3:1 then you just have to trust the computers that your bet did not get place because at 3 minutes to post, your horse was not 3:1 or greater.

Oh, and, post time when is that exactly? I recall when on track hearing the announcer tell the crowd the post time for the next race after announcing the just completed event. I always assumed conditional wagers were scheduled according to those post times determined by the stewards. But I don't know if that is true or not. Perhaps the conditional wagers are using the projected post times published in the days prior to the actual race. Who knows especially if races are delayed substantially.

So, be careful. You really should know those and other specifics before using a conditional wagering service from some one like Twinspires. "Trust me" -- I think not!