A tape cassette in a Ipad world.

[TheEdge07]

Horse Racing Needs A New Box (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/80722/horse-racing-needs-a-new-box?source=rss)

Great read

[Grits]

Well written opinion, and he's correct. Those "in charge"? They never have, and they never will, admit, that first, this is about gambling. Money and betting fuels "the show". Without it, there is no sport, there is no game, there is no show.

[jballscalls]

Well written opinion, and he's correct. Those "in charge"? They never have, and they never will, admit, that first, this is about gambling. Money and betting fuels "the show". Without it, there is no sport, there is no game, there is no show.

I'd be curious to know who you mean by "those in charge".

Just the other day my boss at our little track (he's "in charge") was telling someone who wanted to host a show horse event at the track "our customers are not here for the horses, they are here to bet on the horses."

I've worked at three tracks, all of which have taken the attitude that we are gambling facilities first and foremost.

[Grits]

Governing bodies which begin with the Jockey Club, the NTRA and Breeders' Cup. I cannot, and will not, speak for the writer of the piece, Mr.Carouthers.

[jballscalls]

Governing bodies which begin with the Jockey Club, the NTRA and Breeders' Cup. I cannot, and will not, speak for the writer of the piece, Mr.Carouthers.

As a smaller track, we really have no dealings with them, so I can't speak to that on a personal level.

[Grits]

"our customers are not here for the horses, they are here to bet on the horses."

You say that your track is small, but on this I can't agree. Regardless the size of the track.

Most of us, here, wager on horses. Speaking for myself, I love horses.. everything about them. I'm not only concerned about my bet. In other words, the horse is what drew me to the gambling.

People love competition, they love champions and they will come to see them. It doesn't matter whether that champion is Serena Williams, Lebron James, Rachel Alexandra or Wise Dan.

Clearly, as we know though, Saturday's champions are not the bread and butter of the gambler.

[jballscalls]

You say that your track is small, but on this I can't agree. Regardless the size of the track.

Most of us, here, wager on horses. Speaking for myself, I love horses.. everything about them. I'm not only concerned about my bet. In other words, the horse is what drew me to the gambling.

People love competition, they love champions and they will come to see them. It doesn't matter whether that champion is Serena Williams, Lebron James, Rachel Alexandra or Wise Dan.

Clearly, as we know though, Saturday's champions are not the bread and butter of the gambler.

I think many of us love the horses, my boss was more referring to what brings our customers out to the track. We've done show horse type things before and they don't garner any interest from our players. The overwhelming majority of them want a clean and comfortable place to bet on the races and don't care about frill promotions.

Interesting the horse is what drew you to gambling, I've heard it mostly the other way around, but I can certainly see how it can go your way as well.

appreciate the dialogue!

[SandyW]

Things would get much better for horse racing if those in charge can convince the public that gambling on the races is the only place that you can:

"WIN A LUMBER YARD WITH A TOOTHPICK."

[rastajenk]

The writer was all over the place, offering up a distilled version of what gets mentioned on places like this in thread after thread. I didn't find anything particularly insightful or new in this piece.

[pandy]

Horse Racing Needs A New Box (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/80722/horse-racing-needs-a-new-box?source=rss)

Great read

Good article. He's written similar articles before, read one in Horseplayer Magazine years ago, and he is correct on all counts.

[FocusWiz]

The article was very good.

I think horse racing does have an "image" problem which the industry has not made enough effort to correct. Family days are nice but they tend to hide the "wagering" aspect of the game.

In my youth, my parents wanted me to understand the nature of horse racing, the importance of the proper care of the horses, and the thinking behind wagering. They wanted me to understand that there are limits to what you wager on and how you bet on a race and how to respect the handicapping of other players. Without positive examples, the next generation will not necessarily learn the value of horse racing and it will remain foreign to them.

Lotteries and casinos are acceptable wagering, as are office pools on the Superbowl or the World Series. However, betting on the horses is often looked down upon by the general public. When I was in high school, my "Economics" teacher taught us how to read the Wall Street Journal. One day, I asked him after class why he did not teach us how to read the Daily Racing Form since most of his students would benefit more from that than the Wall Street Journal. His answer, "Because I would get fired." Playing the stock market (as opposed to actual investing) is also acceptable gambling.

I have friends who frequent casinos and ask me why I don't go to them (they think of me as a "numbers" person). When I say, I prefer playing the horses, the typical responses I get are generally rather negative. They think of throwing money into a machine as "fun" but playing the horses is "gambling."

Often I get the reaction, "Horse racing is fixed" as a reason they would rather throw quarters at a machine than bet on horses, but I think the issue goes much deeper. I will likely say something rather insulting next, so please forgive me. It is only my opinion, and really not a particularly strong one.

I think that most Americans want instant gratification and are not particularly interested in doing a lot of work prior to wagering.

They like the idea of watching a machine that doesn't pay off for a while and then playing it because it is now "due." They know that if they bet on the horses, the chances are not even across all runners and they would need to think first. Seeing a horse that never ever won and is now "due" would not work at the track. Their rationalization is that "races are fixed." Thinking is hard work. An interaction with a slot machine is almost therapeutic in its affect on the player. The interaction with a racing card is very different; to a neophyte, perhaps overwhelming. They bet on colors and names and numbers and hope for the best. Comparing it to Football, where your team plays every week or baseball where you might have watched or read about all 162 games, horse racing is very different. Few of us watch a single horse with the fervor that a fan watches a ballclub and they don't run as frequently as a ballclub plays. We gain insight by reading through the past performances. This is too much work for a two minute event in the minds of many.

A friend indicated that a race card is overly long for the modern American who wants a greater percentage of "action" in the day. Perhaps this is why Australia likes to rotate three tracks into a single day's programming event. By having a race every 10 minutes or so, more instant gratification is achieved. Waiting 30 minutes for a two-minute event is seen as "boring" to many (especially those who knew what their favorite color was before they arrived at the track).

I think horse racing needs to not only promote itself not just as a game, but as good, clean fun. We almost got there years ago when Steve Cauthen became a poster boy (My friend's daughter had a poster of him in her room....she did not even know anything about horse racing). It needs to be thrust into mainstream America, like casinos and lotteries. I don't know how we can achieve this, but it needs to be more acceptable and more accessible (as the article indicates).

Just my 2¢.

[Capper Al]

Good article. Thanks for sharing.

[Grits]

FocusWiz, your 2 cents is outstanding. Thank you for adding it!

[Dave Schwartz]

May I suggest that people take the time to comment below the article?

I did.

[JustRalph]

Matt Carothers dad, right?

[Stillriledup]

Matt Carothers dad, right?

Correct.

[cj]

Imagine if Powerball just advertised the excitement of vacuuming the ping pong balls from the hopper. That would really draw in the bucks! And better yet, before the drawing, lets do a feel good piece about the woman who is announcing the numbers that are coming out of the hopper!

That is exactly what horse racing does when they actually get exposure on television.

[Stillriledup]

Good writing by Gibson, we need more Gibson's in this game, he brought his son into the sport and Matt is also a credit to the industry, lots of racing passion in that family.

While i agree with most of what GC wrote, i have to ask about the idea that one of the "Reasons" that people supposedly don't bet racing is the learning curve and my question would be....why do people throw money into a random lottery but when it comes to horsebetting, they all of a sudden need to be "experts" in order to play?

I think that stems from the racing industry not putting the "7-11 lottery crowd" in a position to bet into horse racing's pools via the "quick pick" system. When i see someone buying megamillions tickets on quick pick i think "man, i'd love those dollars to go into the betting pools at the track"

Gibson is totally right when he says racing is just way behind the times, they're still living in 1970 and thinking they're a "take it or leave it" gambling game. If you had a complaint for your tracks GM in 1975 or 1980 they would tell you that if you don't like it, you can get in your car and drive 30 mins or an hour to the nearest other track and bet over there.

I think the "Arrogance" of the higher ups in the game has prevented them from "branching out" and really looking to find ways to create betting handle, introduce new people into the game and to love and cherish current customers so they don't leave the sport altogether.

You know, we can bump this thread in 10 years and remember "10 years ago" this piece and how it made some good and passionate points, but we had the "horseplayers panel" 10 years ago that made great suggestions and most or all of them fell on deaf ears.

Track owners are trying so hard to acquire slots and nurse the slots they have, that they have completely neglected the game...the only one who's actually cares about the game is Jeff Gural over at Meadowlands...but, i don't think its a coincidence that his "heavy handed" approach to having good quality betting races, kicking out the cheaters all stems from him NOT currently having slots. If he got slots, would he still be as vigilant?

64 bucks gets you the answer.

[MJC922]

I remember back in the 70s my mom talking about Forego, Ruffian, Seattle Slew etc and it just seemed back in those days it was more about the horses, even as a handicapper making a connection as a fan with the horses. These days you turn on the coverage for a big race and you hear far more about the connections and the challenges they've faced in their lives than many casual fans would ever want to know. News flash, the fans have challenges in their lives too, and often handicapping horses + gambling can be an escape from all of that. I think some changes in coverage would help. Watching Wise Dan get re-shod and fed a few apples probably would hold more interest for me than watching another Tom Hammond tear jerker, with all due respect to Tom.

[therussmeister]

The article was very good.


Often I get the reaction, "Horse racing is fixed" as a reason they would rather throw quarters at a machine than bet on horses.


Ironically, it's the slots that are fixed, and that should be your reply.

[Stillriledup]

Ironically, it's the slots that are fixed, and that should be your reply.

Actually the reply is that if you are very observant, the "fixing" can be beneficial if you're paying attention to which horses are "stiffed" and hidden in the back of the pack. To me, stiffing means that the PPs and the actual talent of the horses might not be one in the same...if everyone tried all the time, what you see is what you would get and everyone would have PPs that mirrored the actual talent of the runners.

Thru careful and tireless video analysis, i'm always looking for that one runner who is "hiding" in the back and has a much better horse than is being shown, that's some of the edge i'm looking for in this game.

[TheEdge07]

Actually the reply is that if you are very observant, the "fixing" can be beneficial if you're paying attention to which horses are "stiffed" and hidden in the back of the pack. To me, stiffing means that the PPs and the actual talent of the horses might not be one in the same...if everyone tried all the time, what you see is what you would get and everyone would have PPs that mirrored the actual talent of the runners.

Thru careful and tireless video analysis, i'm always looking for that one runner who is "hiding" in the back and has a much better horse than is being shown, that's some of the edge i'm looking for in this game.

If a trainer places a horse in a "prep" race not fully cranked could it be considered fixed?

[Stillriledup]

If a trainer places a horse in a "prep" race not fully cranked could it be considered fixed?

I mean, technically you're supposed to "try" and win at all times so by the letter of the law, i would say its probably dishonest as you're *supposed* to have your horse 100% cranked and ready to run as best as he can. But, we all know that none of that is viewed as fixing by the industry and no connections would ever be punished for not giving a 100% max effort in that situation. I believe that as a bettor, i don't view that as "fixing" i more view it as part of the sport, its just something we have to consider in our handicapping. If a grade 1 runner was showing up after 6 months to race in a race that was 1 month before the Breeders Cup (for example) i might think to myself that the connections might not have that horse fully cranked...it all depends on the situation.

[TheEdge07]

I mean, technically you're supposed to "try" and win at all times so by the letter of the law, i would say its probably dishonest as you're *supposed* to have your horse 100% cranked and ready to run as best as he can. But, we all know that none of that is viewed as fixing by the industry and no connections would ever be punished for not giving a 100% max effort in that situation. I believe that as a bettor, i don't view that as "fixing" i more view it as part of the sport, its just something we have to consider in our handicapping. If a grade 1 runner was showing up after 6 months to race in a race that was 1 month before the Breeders Cup (for example) i might think to myself that the connections might not have that horse fully cranked...it all depends on the situation.

But the casual fan may not know this information.

[Stillriledup]

But the casual fan may not know this information.

That's why it behooves a person to become more serious and less casual. Same holds true for casual investors in any other area of life, the more you know, the better off you are.

[thaskalos]

I'd be curious to know who you mean by "those in charge".

Just the other day my boss at our little track (he's "in charge") was telling someone who wanted to host a show horse event at the track "our customers are not here for the horses, they are here to bet on the horses."

I've worked at three tracks, all of which have taken the attitude that we are gambling facilities first and foremost.

If the racetrack bosses acknowledge that this is first and foremost a "gambling game"...then how can they allow the credibility and integrity issues that exist within it?

Do they know any other gambling games which thrive in spite of credibility and integrity issues?

I hear trainers and TV racing personalities stating that this game is "basically honest"...and that "only a few of the trainers cheat".

Is that good enough, at a time when other, more honest gambling options are widespread?

Would people ever choose to patronize a poker room where they knew that "only a few of the players cheated"?

[Stillriledup]

If the racetrack bosses acknowledge that this is first and foremost a "gambling game"...then how can they allow the credibility and integrity issues that exist within it?

Do they know any other gambling games which thrive in spite of credibility and integrity issues?

I hear trainers and TV racing personalities stating that this game is "basically honest"...and that "only a few of the trainers cheat".

Is that good enough, at a time when other, more honest gambling options are widespread?

Would people ever choose to patronize a poker room where they knew that "only a few of the players cheated"?

Those poker rooms in Vegas have camera everywhere with people watching everyone closely.....and because the players know this, the cheating is few and far between.

You can leave your chips MONEY on the table at a poker game, walk to the bathroom and not worry that someone is going to take them. In horse racing, you can't even leave your DRF and a bottle of water on a table or else someone will pull a heist.

That's the difference between racing and Poker/casino/Vegas. Its an integrity thing.

[thaskalos]

Those poker rooms in Vegas have camera everywhere with people watching everyone closely.....and because the players know this, the cheating is few and far between.

You can leave your chips MONEY on the table at a poker game, walk to the bathroom and not worry that someone is going to take them. In horse racing, you can't even leave your DRF and a bottle of water on a table or else someone will pull a heist.

That's the difference between racing and Poker/casino/Vegas. Its an integrity thing.

That's also the difference between an industry that considers its product to be "gambling"...and one that considers its product to be "entertainment".

In gambling...credibility and integrity are the end-alls...and no expense is spared in order to protect these precious commodities.

In "entertainment"...all the other operational problems are addressed first...and credibility and integrity are only minor concerns.

After all...the fans are only there to have a "good time". :rolleyes:

[pandy]

I agree that integrity is a big problem. Any time a horse wins, or runs for that matter, with some sort of illegal substance, the trainer is attempting to fix the race and this can be prosecuted as a felony based on the law that states that tampering with a parimutuel event is a felony. Unfortunately, racing doesn't go after these trainers the way they should.

Casinos do everything they can to keep the games honest. I actually think there is far less fraud in the casinos than there is on the major stock exchanges.

[Stillriledup]

I agree that integrity is a big problem. Any time a horse wins, or runs for that matter, with some sort of illegal substance, the trainer is attempting to fix the race and this can be prosecuted as a felony based on the law that states that tampering with a parimutuel event is a felony. Unfortunately, racing doesn't go after these trainers the way they should.

Casinos do everything they can to keep the games honest. I actually think there is far less fraud in the casinos than there is on the major stock exchanges.

They need to single out one trainer and go after him for race fixing. Pick out a "top" trainer who has many violations and haul him away in cuffs on breeders cup day. Force him to go thru the judicial system, that might put a scare in these other people who think about cheating.

[cj]

They need to single out one trainer and go after him for race fixing. Pick out a "top" trainer who has many violations and haul him away in cuffs on breeders cup day. Force him to go thru the judicial system, that might put a scare in these other people who think about cheating.

Really? I'm pretty sure I can go by some crack right by Remington any time of the day or night, and they crack down pretty hard on that. Hasn't stopped people from selling it. Nobody ever thinks he is the one that will be caught.

[Stillriledup]

Really? I'm pretty sure I can go by some crack right by Remington any time of the day or night, and they crack down pretty hard on that. Hasn't stopped people from selling it. Nobody ever thinks he is the one that will be caught.

If you have a better idea, i'm all ears. Racing hasnt been too keen on letting outside authorities come in and arrest lawbreakers, they want to handle everything "in house", the punishments are wrist slaps for the most part, there's no incentive for these cheaters to clean up their act, its beneficial to cheat, nobody is doing a thing about it.

[cj]

If you have a better idea, i'm all ears. Racing hasnt been too keen on letting outside authorities come in and arrest lawbreakers, they want to handle everything "in house", the punishments are wrist slaps for the most part, there's no incentive for these cheaters to clean up their act, its beneficial to cheat, nobody is doing a thing about it.

But you see, racing already did this. Remember a guy named Dutrow that now can't train for a decade or so? I haven't really noticed any decline in the level of alchemist trainers.

[Stillriledup]

But you see, racing already did this. Remember a guy named Dutrow that now can't train for a decade or so? I haven't really noticed any decline in the level of alchemist trainers.

But they didnt put him in jail or haul him away in cuffs. They just told him to essentially find another line of work...its akin to getting fired from you job, people get fired all the time and they go out and get new jobs.

[cj]

But they didnt put him in jail or haul him away in cuffs. They just told him to essentially find another line of work...its akin to getting fired from you job, people get fired all the time and they go out and get new jobs.

What job is he going to get making near the same money?

It would be tough to prove any of this in a court of law unless someone is caught red-handed. I like the Dutrow method better.

[PaceAdvantage]

It would be tough to prove any of this in a court of law unless someone is caught red-handed.A key point that is often forgotten....

[Stillriledup]

What job is he going to get making near the same money?

It would be tough to prove any of this in a court of law unless someone is caught red-handed. I like the Dutrow method better.

People in life get fired all the time...most of them start from square 1 and go out and try and find anyone who will hire them. Maybe he should have thought about how lucrative his job was before he made his "bosses" mad.

[Stillriledup]

A key point that is often forgotten....

But, even if you can't get some kind of criminal conviction, you can drag the guy thru the judicial system, you have the images and video of him being led away in cuffs and he has to go thru the embarrassment of being hauled off in front of an actual real life judge. Even if the guy gets off, i'll derive pleasure of the images of him being hauled off in front of the Breeders Cup tv cameras.

[TJDave]

Do they know any other gambling games which thrive in spite of credibility and integrity issues?


Do casinos tell patrons that they don't pay true odds...That the games are rigged against them?

[raybo]

I think there were 2 very good things included in the article, promoting/advertising the game, and embracing online wagering (the only growth segment in the industry the last time I checked).

The "tournament" element, likened to poker's, could not be shown live, for obvious reasons. If you show a tournament players picks before the race has run, that player is probably not going to appreciate it, especially if he is at the top of the rankings at the time, or finished well in the last tournament.

An element that the article did not mention was that racing is a paramutuel game, the more money you bet on a horse the lower the value of that investment. This is a big negative for growing the game.

[cj]

But, even if you can't get some kind of criminal conviction, you can drag the guy thru the judicial system, you have the images and video of him being led away in cuffs and he has to go thru the embarrassment of being hauled off in front of an actual real life judge. Even if the guy gets off, i'll derive pleasure of the images of him being hauled off in front of the Breeders Cup tv cameras.

Who is going to pay for that? The state? ROFLMAO.

[Stillriledup]

Who is going to pay for that? The state? ROFLMAO.

Maybe they can raise the takeout to pay for it. ;)

Besides, when they're hauling him off, they're thinking they will get a conviction...you haul first and ask questions later! :D

[thaskalos]

Do casinos tell patrons that they don't pay true odds...That the games are rigged against them?
Yes, they do.

[TJDave]

Yes, they do.

Where?

I don't recall ever seeing or a casino ever volunteering to provide such information.

[therussmeister]

They need to single out one trainer and go after him for race fixing. Pick out a "top" trainer who has many violations and haul him away in cuffs on breeders cup day. Force him to go thru the judicial system, that might put a scare in these other people who think about cheating.
Who's they? I really don't think the racing industry has any say in who gets charged with a felony, or how and when they are hauled away.

[thaskalos]

Where?

I don't recall ever seeing or a casino ever volunteering to provide such information.
I don't see your point. The worst kept secret in the gambling world is that the house needs to skew the odds in their favor in order to guarantee a profit for themselves. What player in his right mind would expect the house to deal out a totally "even" game...when everybody knows that sizable investments have been made and expenses must be met on the establishment side? The house needs to take their cut...and we all know and accept that.

But, along with taking that cut...the house must assume the responsibility of properly policing their game...in order to make sure that dishonesty does not enter into the picture. Horse racing has the distinction of being both, the most heavily taxed gambling game...AND the most dishonest -- and that's not a good combination to have.

Of course I've seen it reported that casinos shift the odds in their favor in order to secure a guaranteed profit. I've seen casinos report what they pay back on their slots...and I see right there on the roulette layout that there are 38 numbers, and I get paid only 35-1.

It's the price people pay in order to be presented with an honest game to play.

It's when people are charged a heavy price for a dishonest game, that I object.

A game cannot be "basically honest"; it's either honest...or it's not.

[JustRalph]

Where?

I don't recall ever seeing or a casino ever volunteering to provide such information.

I took a two day class on rigged carnival games once. We discussed a case where a carnival operator had signs posted at both ends of the midway that clearly stated " Carnival Games are always in favor of the carnival operator"

he beat the rap........... :lol:

[Stillriledup]

I don't see your point. The worst kept secret in the gambling world is that the house needs to skew the odds in their favor in order to guarantee a profit for themselves. What player in his right mind would expect the house to deal out a totally "even" game...when everybody knows that sizable investments have been made and expenses must be met on the establishment side? The house needs to take their cut...and we all know and accept that.

But, along with taking that cut...the house must assume the responsibility of properly policing their game...in order to make sure that dishonesty does not enter into the picture. Horse racing has the distinction of being both, the most heavily taxed gambling game...AND the most dishonest -- and that's not a good combination to have.

Of course I've seen it reported that casinos shift the odds in their favor in order to secure a guaranteed profit. I've seen casinos report what they pay back on their slots...and I see right there on the roulette layout that there are 38 numbers, and I get paid only 35-1.

It's the price people pay in order to be presented with an honest game to play.

It's when people are charged a heavy price for a dishonest game, that I object.

A game cannot be "basically honest"; it's either honest...or it's not.

David's point, i believe,is where is this information posted, in easy to read terms so that everyone can easily understand.

[thespaah]

Horse Racing Needs A New Box (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/80722/horse-racing-needs-a-new-box?source=rss)

Great read
The writer is correct. Racing needs a change in marketing strategy.

[Stillriledup]

The writer is correct. Racing needs a change in marketing strategy.

They also need a change in philosophy in how they treat people. They need to stop "looking down" on their customers as "lowly gamblers".

They have a lot of work to do in all areas. Its amazing to me how their arrogance gets in the way of actual profits. They money the industry is leaving on the table is staggering.

Horse racing higher ups needed to act as if they were the peons while the customers are royalty, they would have a lot more money in the kitty. Their ego has cost them quite a bit of money.

[rastajenk]

Do you know any racing "higher-ups"?