Wise Dan v. Lure

[andtheyreoff]

Who was better?

Wise Dan: http://www.equibase.com/profiles/Results.cfm?type=Horse&refno=7999682&registry=T

Lure: http://www.equibase.com/profiles/Results.cfm?type=Horse&refno=1249923&registry=T

[Some_One]

Well according to the Equibase figures they are virtually tied (1 pt career best dif).

[TheEdge07]

Dont think Lure had cupcake races..i maybe wrong but lure ran up against some real good horses.

[Shemp Howard]

Paradise Creek, Star of Cozzene, and Fourstars Allstar all found Lure to be too much to handle.

Dan wins easily but I doubt anyone will remember the allowance horses he leaves behind.

Not his fault.

[Track Phantom]

Paradise Creek, Star of Cozzene, and Fourstars Allstar all found Lure to be too much to handle.

Dan wins easily but I doubt anyone will remember the allowance horses he leaves behind.

Not his fault.

Agree. As great as Wise Dan is, he hasn't faced the likes of the runners you mentioned above, all of who were sensational turf runners.

Lure won over 2 million and twice won the BC Mile. Paradise Creek won over 3 million, multiple Grade 1's and the Arlington Million. Fourstars Allstar won 1.5 million and the Group 1 2000 Guineas.

Wise Dan has beaten a few like Obviously and Animal Kingdom but not much more (at least compared to those listed above).

[andtheyreoff]

Wise Dan has beaten a few like Obviously and Animal Kingdom but not much more (at least compared to those listed above).

Animal Kingdom is the only horse to win both the Kentucky Derby & the Dubai World Cup (albeit over different surfaces)- no small feat. Excelebration was also in that BC Mile field, and he's a multiple G1 winner in Europe. So Dan's beaten a few decent horses.

[SharpCat]

Animal Kingdom is the only horse to win both the Kentucky Derby & the Dubai World Cup (albeit over different surfaces)- no small feat. Excelebration was also in that BC Mile field, and he's a multiple G1 winner in Europe. So Dan's beaten a few decent horses.


Silver Charm won the Kentucky Derby & Dubai World Cup. Game on Dude beat more G1 horses in the Pacific Classic than Wise Dan has beaten in his 5 races combined.

[the little guy]

I'm sure Wise Dan would have beaten a lot of Grade 1 winners....if he wasn't so busy winning all the Grade 1s they could have won.

He's a great talent. Appreciate it.

[Stillriledup]

Here's the thing about greatness.

I don't put a heck of a lot of stock in "who you beat" because that requires owners of other really good horses to want to race against you. If people don't want "any part of you" that's not your fault and you shouldnt be penalized for something out of your control.

I like to rate horses as individuals and not say "so and so isnt great because they beat nothing".

[Some_One]

I'm sure Wise Dan would have beaten a lot of Grade 1 winners....if he wasn't so busy winning all the Grade 1s they could have won.

He's a great talent. Appreciate it.

Like the Arlington Million? oops, sorry...at least the Frankel connections made the step up to 10f after he won every possible G1 mile race he could in England.

[horses4courses]

Always love when people pose the question of comparing horses from different eras.
You can never be proven right or wrong, so it's pretty safe to fire away.
Strange how the horse from years past gets the higher rating 80% of the time.

[the little guy]

Like the Arlington Million? oops, sorry...at least the Frankel connections made the step up to 10f after he won every possible G1 mile race he could in England.

I'm sorry he didn't run in other races as well, and his trainer told me ( publicly ) that he wanted to run him in the Whitney, but that doesn't mean he isn't a great talent.

[thespaah]

Who was better?

Wise Dan: http://www.equibase.com/profiles/Results.cfm?type=Horse&refno=7999682&registry=T

Lure: http://www.equibase.com/profiles/Results.cfm?type=Horse&refno=1249923&registry=T
Can't do it.
Different eras. Different horses. Different track conditions.
There are so many variables.
Rather than attempting to compare them head to head,
the correct question is, which horse is better vs his OWN competition.

[Some_One]

I'm sorry he didn't run in other races as well, and his trainer told me ( publicly ) that he wanted to run him in the Whitney, but that doesn't mean he isn't a great talent.

I don't disagree he has great talent, but like Zenyatta or Black Caviar, gutless connections taint the record. I believe there is a quote saying something like you don't know how good you are until you fail. IMO the fact that the connections chose the Fourstardave and Firecracker should disqualify the horse from HOY consideration, one or two 'real' races should not be considered a HOY campaign.

[the little guy]

I don't disagree he has great talent, but like Zenyatta or Black Caviar, gutless connections taint the record. I believe there is a quote saying something like you don't know how good you are until you fail. IMO the fact that the connections chose the Fourstardave and Firecracker should disqualify the horse from HOY consideration, one or two 'real' races should not be considered a HOY campaign.


Who cares about Horse of the Year? Wise Dan is a tremendous talent. What do awards have to do with that? Was Zenyatta a better horse for being given Horse of the Year than she was the prior year when she wasn't?

Andy Beyer never won an Eclipse Award. Does that mean those that have are more important writers than him? Accomplishment is what matters. Awards? Next thing you're going to tell me is that The French Connection was a better movie than The Last Picture Show or A Clockwork Orange because it won the Oscar that year.

[SharpCat]

I don't disagree he has great talent, but like Zenyatta or Black Caviar, gutless connections taint the record. I believe there is a quote saying something like you don't know how good you are until you fail. IMO the fact that the connections chose the Fourstardave and Firecracker should disqualify the horse from HOY consideration, one or two 'real' races should not be considered a HOY campaign.


Would love to hear how the connections of Black Caviar were gutless. All but 2 of her races were in open company against males. She won at Ascot despite injuring herself during the race. Black Caviar won 22 consecutive graded races with 15 G1 victories.

[olddaddy]

Win a bunch of group races giving 10+lbs to the competition, then Ill say you are a great horse. Winning a bunch of even weighted races could just mean you are in a time period with not much out there.

[iceknight]

Who was better?

Wise Dan: http://www.equibase.com/profiles/Results.cfm?type=Horse&refno=7999682&registry=T

Lure: http://www.equibase.com/profiles/Results.cfm?type=Horse&refno=1249923&registry=T Wise Dan, by 2 lengths.

[dilanesp]

I don't put a heck of a lot of stock in "who you beat" because that requires owners of other really good horses to want to race against you. If people don't want "any part of you" that's not your fault and you shouldnt be penalized for something out of your control.

I think that's wrong. Owners who want to run against good competition can generally find a way to do it. The classic modern example of this is Cigar's career. Paulson shipped him everywhere to meet everyone, and as result his 16 race winning streak basically included his beating every good handicap horse in America at least once and in many cases multiple times.

In contrast, owners who want to duck competition can generally find a way to do it too. The classic example of this is Personal Ensign's career, in which she beat a couple of colts with distance and class limitations in the Whitney, Winning Colors in the Maskette, and Winning Colors and Goodbye Halo in the Breeders' Cup Distaff (ducking the BC Classic which had a tremendous field that year), and that's it. No Breeders' Cups the first two years, an average of 4 races a year, and mostly against small fields of tired New York stakes horses. There were always races available for Personal Ensign to run in if the Phippses wanted her to run against better competition. They didn't, so she didn't.

(As you can tell, I think Cigar has a somewhat stronger claim to greatness than Personal Ensign does.)

Cigar vs. Personal Ensign are sort of the two extremes, but there are plenty of horses whose connections went out of their way to seek out good competition over the course of at least a couple of seasons. Skip Away did it. Alysheba did it. John Henry did it. Spectacular Bid and Affirmed did it when I was a kid.

I haven't really deeply examined Wise Dan's record, but it does seem to me he's not running that often and there are plenty of races he COULD run in if his connections wanted to establish his greatness. Someone mentioned this year's Pacific Classic upthread, which seems a nice example (and he could probably do fine going turf-to-synthetic in it).

[dilanesp]

I don't disagree he has great talent, but like Zenyatta or Black Caviar, gutless connections taint the record. I believe there is a quote saying something like you don't know how good you are until you fail. IMO the fact that the connections chose the Fourstardave and Firecracker should disqualify the horse from HOY consideration, one or two 'real' races should not be considered a HOY campaign.

I think this comment is slightly unfair to Zenyatta. It's true that during the year she racked up wins against crap fields on synthetic tracks in California, but she did ship out to win two Apple Blossoms at Oaklawn on the dirt against legitimate horses, and, of course, her two BC Classics were both against spectacular fields and she's at worst tied with Alysheba for the second greatest accomplishment in the history of that race (a win and a photo finish loss, behind only Tiznow's two wins). Her connections rolled the dice a couple of times a year, and two of those rolls were huge gambles. Not great, I agree, but not nothing either.

[SharpCat]

I think that's wrong. Owners who want to run against good competition can generally find a way to do it. The classic modern example of this is Cigar's career. Paulson shipped him everywhere to meet everyone, and as result his 16 race winning streak basically included his beating every good handicap horse in America at least once and in many cases multiple times.

In contrast, owners who want to duck competition can generally find a way to do it too. The classic example of this is Personal Ensign's career, in which she beat a couple of colts with distance and class limitations in the Whitney, Winning Colors in the Maskette, and Winning Colors and Goodbye Halo in the Breeders' Cup Distaff (ducking the BC Classic which had a tremendous field that year), and that's it. No Breeders' Cups the first two years, an average of 4 races a year, and mostly against small fields of tired New York stakes horses. There were always races available for Personal Ensign to run in if the Phippses wanted her to run against better competition. They didn't, so she didn't.

(As you can tell, I think Cigar has a somewhat stronger claim to greatness than Personal Ensign does.)

Cigar vs. Personal Ensign are sort of the two extremes, but there are plenty of horses whose connections went out of their way to seek out good competition over the course of at least a couple of seasons. Skip Away did it. Alysheba did it. John Henry did it. Spectacular Bid and Affirmed did it when I was a kid.

I haven't really deeply examined Wise Dan's record, but it does seem to me he's not running that often and there are plenty of races he COULD run in if his connections wanted to establish his greatness. Someone mentioned this year's Pacific Classic upthread, which seems a nice example (and he could probably do fine going turf-to-synthetic in it).


Would have love to see Wise Dan vs Game on Dude in the Pacific Classic. Maybe they will meet up sometime next year.

[iceknight]

I haven't really deeply examined Wise Dan's record, but it does seem to me he's not running that often and there are plenty of races he COULD run in if his connections wanted to establish his greatness. Someone mentioned this year's Pacific Classic upthread, which seems a nice example (and he could probably do fine going turf-to-synthetic in it). POE ducked him,

Ron the Greek beat him by a neck.

[jk3521]

Right now , Wise Dan, because he's alive! :)

[cj]

Ron the Greek beat him by a neck.

With an absolute dream trip he beat him. Wise Dan was much the best that day. Check out where Fort Larned finished that day, and what he did in his next four races.

[the little guy]

It's funny to see revisionist history regarding Cigar. At the time, most people talked quite a bit about the weak competition he was facing, as essentially he came during a gap in good horses. Skip Away beat him the first time they met. No sane person would suggest that he could have put together any kind of streak against the likes of Skip Away, Gentlemen, Formal Gold, Wills Way, etc. Sometimes, timing is everything.

Not knocking Cigar, he was terrific, but if there were internet message boards back then, we could easily find pages and pages of people knocking his competition. Now, at least according to one person, the opposite is true.

[ronsmac]

Lure is one of my all time favorites, I made a huge bet on him, by my standards when he won his first Breeders Cup. With that being said I'd still say wise Dan is a better horse.

[TheEdge07]

It's funny to see revisionist history regarding Cigar. At the time, most people talked quite a bit about the weak competition he was facing, as essentially he came during a gap in good horses. Skip Away beat him the first time they met. No sane person would suggest that he could have put together any kind of streak against the likes of Skip Away, Gentlemen, Formal Gold, Wills Way, etc. Sometimes, timing is everything.

Not knocking Cigar, he was terrific, but if there were internet message boards back then, we could easily find pages and pages of people knocking his competition. Now, at least according to one person, the opposite is true.

What about his analysis on the great Personal Ensign?

[the little guy]

What about his analysis on the great Personal Ensign?

I saw he claimed Personal Ensign "ducked" the BC Classic that year, a race which featured two Phipps runners, one of whom finished second, and laughed. He also failed to point out that she came back on 8 days rest, as a 3YO, and buried older horses in the Beldame.

Any horse's record can be taken apart. Who cares?

[TheEdge07]

I saw he claimed Personal Ensign "ducked" the BC Classic that year, a race which featured two Phipps runners, one of whom finished second, and laughed. He also failed to point out that she came back on 8 days rest, as a 3YO, and buried older horses in the Beldame.

Any horse's record can be taken apart. Who cares?

He mentioned no BC for PE first two years wasnt she racing on.screws?Also mentioned PE racing against small fields is Shug to blame for who shows up?

The game has changed horses run less..

[Tom]

Not knocking Cigar, he was terrific, but if there were internet message boards back then, we could easily find pages and pages of people knocking his competition. Now, at least according to one person, the opposite is true.

Back then, we held these discussions at the track bar, and for the most part, we were all much more cordial and mindful of what we said than on the internet. Because it is harder to punch out someone on the internet!:D

[johnhannibalsmith]

... Next thing you're going to tell me is that The French Connection was a better movie than ... A Clockwork Orange because it won the Oscar that year.

Most choodessny bit of sarky posted in a good long time!

[Valuist]

Who was the better turf miling mare? Miesque or Goldikova? I'd side with Miesque. Goldikova had pretty good trips in her BC races, and Miesque won one of her BC Miles over a rock hard course, and the other over the soggy, bog-like CD course.

[jk3521]

The career of Wise Dan isn't over yet. So maybe it is too soon to say which horse was best. He may prove in the future that he was better.

[classhandicapper]

I'm sure Wise Dan would have beaten a lot of Grade 1 winners....if he wasn't so busy winning all the Grade 1s they could have won.

He's a great talent. Appreciate it.

I said a similar thing about another top horse. It's a valid point. When one horse dominates a division, it has a tendency to make the rest of the division look less accomplished.

All that said, if you put a gun to my head I'd take Lure. Not so much that I believe he was clearly better. I just think US turf racing was generally stronger back then than it is now and he faced a particularly good group (including some good imports). Somewhere along the line, with foreigners buying so many of the top US horses, IMO the quality of our turf racing declined a bit. People recognize that it's not as strong as top Euro racing now, but I'm not so sure people realize that it may have been better at one time.

There's no doubt he's a special talent though.

Let's revisit this after BC Mile this year.

Hopefully he'll have a chance to prove even more if the Euros send of a few of their best milers. Then there's always next year!

[iceknight]

With an absolute dream trip he beat him. Wise Dan was much the best that day. Check out where Fort Larned finished that day, and what he did in his next four races. Umm.. I thought I was supporting Wise Dan when I said Ron The Greek (only) beat him by a neck.. :confused:

[classhandicapper]

It's funny to see revisionist history regarding Cigar. At the time, most people talked quite a bit about the weak competition he was facing, as essentially he came during a gap in good horses. Skip Away beat him the first time they met. No sane person would suggest that he could have put together any kind of streak against the likes of Skip Away, Gentlemen, Formal Gold, Wills Way, etc. Sometimes, timing is everything.

Not knocking Cigar, he was terrific, but if there were internet message boards back then, we could easily find pages and pages of people knocking his competition. Now, at least according to one person, the opposite is true.

I agree with every word.

In fact, I think some people under rate him because he just happened to be great at a time when the rest of the division was not. They also point to his losses at the end of his career as evidence of his lack of greatness. By that point he already had a few minor issues, and in one of the races, he was up against a strong bias, but IMO was best. He was a great horse.

[classhandicapper]

Here's a question.

How great would Excelebration look if it wasn't for Frankel?

Obviously has been a terror out west since the BC Turf Mile last year.

Animal Kingdom ran a solid 2nd to Point of Entry (and may have even been best) and then won in Dubai on synth since then.

Last year's BC Mile was not exactly a walk in the park.

[OntheRail]

Wise Dan is for me... is a Great Horse. He wins his races. JV's been a passenger on his back. No fanning like a whirligig in a wind storm to motive him to win. Wise Dan knows what he's there for and enjoys it.. that to me is a mark of a Greatness. ;)

Cigar is a Great Living Legend... and Goldikova, she's was a pint sized pistol on the track with a lot of heart. Black Caviar always was a thrill to watch... and each has earned spot in History along with all the others that pass thru the staring gate on the way to the winners circle.

It was and is, a pleasure to see them run. :ThmbUp:

[dilanesp]

It's funny to see revisionist history regarding Cigar. At the time, most people talked quite a bit about the weak competition he was facing, as essentially he came during a gap in good horses. Skip Away beat him the first time they met. No sane person would suggest that he could have put together any kind of streak against the likes of Skip Away, Gentlemen, Formal Gold, Wills Way, etc. Sometimes, timing is everything.

Not knocking Cigar, he was terrific, but if there were internet message boards back then, we could easily find pages and pages of people knocking his competition. Now, at least according to one person, the opposite is true.

Have you ever looked at the 1995 Hollywood Gold Cup field?

[dilanesp]

He mentioned no BC for PE first two years wasnt she racing on.screws?Also mentioned PE racing against small fields is Shug to blame for who shows up?

The game has changed horses run less..

I actually talked to an insider in Shug's operation several years later about PE. She had a legitimate excuse for missing the first BC (1986), according to this person. But she was fit in November 1987 and could have easily run against Sacahuista at Hollywood Park. The Phippses apparently decided just not to ship any horses out for that one. So that's a clear duck.

And as far as small fields, the point is that if you are running against small fields in New York and picking up purses, that's fine, but it doesn't make you a great horse. The legitimate knock on Zenyatta is basically the same-- she spent a lot of time beating up on bad fillies and mares running in small fields in California.

[the little guy]

I actually talked to an insider in Shug's operation several years later about PE. She had a legitimate excuse for missing the first BC (1986), according to this person. But she was fit in November 1987 and could have easily run against Sacahuista at Hollywood Park. The Phippses apparently decided just not to ship any horses out for that one. So that's a clear duck.

And as far as small fields, the point is that if you are running against small fields in New York and picking up purses, that's fine, but it doesn't make you a great horse. The legitimate knock on Zenyatta is basically the same-- she spent a lot of time beating up on bad fillies and mares running in small fields in California.


You write this first paragraph and expect people to take you seriously? "She had a legitimate excuse for missing the first BC (1986), according to this person." Are you kidding me? She broke her leg while winning the Frizette a few weeks before the BC, something most people that would speak as authoritatively as you pretend to speak would surely know, so I would say she had a "legitimate excuse."

In fact, you are a perfect example of why so many of us that have actually been around the game for a reasonable amount of time were infuriated by the proclamations of greatness for recent runners while ignoring the talents of many past champions.

[classhandicapper]

And as far as small fields, the point is that if you are running against small fields in New York and picking up purses, that's fine, but it doesn't make you a great horse. The legitimate knock on Zenyatta is basically the same-- she spent a lot of time beating up on bad fillies and mares running in small fields in California.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that it fails to recognize the horses that shipped out or did not ship in specifically because a great horse was present and scheduled to run in a particular race they otherwise would have considered.

By your standard, Spectacular Bid's 4 straight wins over an obviously overmatched Flying Paster, a walkover in the Woodward, a win over Glorious Song/Cool Virginian and wins over several non household names, etc... would make his 4YO season look like he was avoiding tough competition when it was an all time great year.

He was was going to be wherever he was going to be. Everyone knew his schedule. If they wanted any part of him they knew where to find him. They wanted nothing to do with him and the ranks became thinner for other reasons.

He's not the only great horse that had competition ship out or not ship in just to avoid a confrontation or be thin for other reasons. You can't hold it against the horse.

IMO, the only thing you can hold against connections/a horse is shipping OUT to avoid a confrontation or changing the horse's schedule once it became apparent a major adversary was going to be in the race.

[cj]

Umm.. I thought I was supporting Wise Dan when I said Ron The Greek (only) beat him by a neck.. :confused:

I was just adding on. Ron The Greek is a decent enough horse, but he is no star, so I was adding to the fact that he lost to him.

[iceknight]

I was just adding on. Ron The Greek is a decent enough horse, but he is no star, so I was adding to the fact that he lost to him. Agreed. Cool then.

It is rarely that I find horses with closing from the back style become "stars". Probably the only exception I remember is Zenyatta.

and speaking of her.

And as far as small fields, the point is that if you are running against small fields in New York and picking up purses, that's fine, but it doesn't make you a great horse. The legitimate knock on Zenyatta is basically the same-- she spent a lot of time beating up on bad fillies and mares running in small fields in California. Didnt Rachel's connections duck her in one of the Apple Blossom (s) at Oaklawn (not Z's home track)


Anyhow, I have to add a word of thanks to the original poster, not for the comparison, but for making me revisit Lure's victories and then on related vidoes such as Bayakoa's wins etc...
I was spending too much time on Arazi, Holybull, Ghostzapper, Z, RA etc till this weekend :lol: Great sport, great animals!

[dilanesp]

You write this first paragraph and expect people to take you seriously? "She had a legitimate excuse for missing the first BC (1986), according to this person." Are you kidding me? She broke her leg while winning the Frizette a few weeks before the BC, something most people that would speak as authoritatively as you pretend to speak would surely know, so I would say she had a "legitimate excuse."

In fact, you are a perfect example of why so many of us that have actually been around the game for a reasonable amount of time were infuriated by the proclamations of greatness for recent runners while ignoring the talents of many past champions.

I wasn't able to find a lot of stuff in the media as to why PE missed the Breeders' Cup, so I asked the person. This was years ago, so I had forgotten what the excuse was, but remember that it was legitimate.

As I said, though, 1987 is different. She just didn't ship out.

Personal Ensign was a vastly overrated horse. I was making my own speed figures in those days and she just wasn't very good-- she caught Winning Colors on the downswing and the colts she beat in the Whitney were nothing special. (And she caught a huge track bias on Breeders' Cup day-- the only speed horse that won that day was Is It True, when Easy Goer hated the mud.) She had an undefeated record because she was managed to maintain an undefeated record. Note this doesn't have anything to do with soundness. When she was sound, they could have put her in against fields she would have lost to.

And specifically, the fact they campaigned for horse of the year after skipping the BC Classic was outrageous. Alysheba was one of the best horses of the 1980's. Phipps ran entries all the time. They could have run her. They didn't, because they knew she would have been up the track.

[dilanesp]

Didnt Rachel's connections duck her in one of the Apple Blossom (s) at Oaklawn (not Z's home track)

Indeed. I think Jess Jackson got too much sympathy because a lot of people hate synthetic tracks and were naturally drawn to the argument that Jackson was ducking Zenyatta because he didn't want to run on synthetic. But he didn't want to run against Zenyatta either.

[dilanesp]

By your standard, Spectacular Bid's 4 straight wins over an obviously overmatched Flying Paster, a walkover in the Woodward, a win over Glorious Song/Cool Virginian and wins over several non household names, etc... would make his 4YO season look like he was avoiding tough competition when it was an all time great year.

No, because there's a big difference between shipping around and seeking out competition, as Delp did (the only arguable duck in the Bid's career is at the end against Winter's Tale, and I'm not even sure whether they really ducked it), and staying at your home track and beating the same nobodies race after race.

If you ship around, and nobody shows up, fine, I think you can make the argument you are making. If you stay in New York and beat up 5 horse fields over and over again, the connections are making no attempt to establish greatness.

[classhandicapper]

No, because there's a big difference between shipping around and seeking out competition, as Delp did (the only arguable duck in the Bid's career is at the end against Winter's Tale, and I'm not even sure whether they really ducked it), and staying at your home track and beating the same nobodies race after race.

If you ship around, and nobody shows up, fine, I think you can make the argument you are making. If you stay in New York and beat up 5 horse fields over and over again, the connections are making no attempt to establish greatness.

I made this argument when Zenyatta was in CA and I think it's relevant to Personal Ensign.

When you are already based in NY or CA, there is typically a series of stakes races for the best horses on the grounds in each category (including a few Grade 1s) right at home. There may be a few seasonal or race specific exceptions (Florida early in the year, Arlington Million, Derby, Preakness, BC races etc..), but other than that, if you are already in NY or CA, there is usually no reason to ship out to find a Grade 1 with a large purse. If anything, the tendency is also to stay home and support the local product.

It's more or less on the best horses from outside those circuits to come to NY or CA to face the best and make a great race.

Bid was Maryland based. So he was obviously going to do some shipping.

PE found a few soft spots, picked a very soft spot to face males, etc... but typically all great horses wind up in a few soft spots by accident and very few "dirt" fillies/mares have tested the best older males in one of those deep top 10F Classic races like a Breeders Cup. I remember years ago a few tried races like the Hollywood Gold Cup, Pacific Classic, SA Handicap etc... (my memory fails me a little about all the details), but they got their heads handed to them. Many of the great dirt fillies/mares never tested males at all.

Trying a filly/mare in the Classic is a somewhat unique thing. IMHO, very few of the greatest I have ever seen would be likely to even hit the board in a race like that. IMO, 10F on dirt against older males in a Classic type race is the toughest spot in America.

[the little guy]

I wasn't able to find a lot of stuff in the media as to why PE missed the Breeders' Cup, so I asked the person. This was years ago, so I had forgotten what the excuse was, but remember that it was legitimate.

As I said, though, 1987 is different. She just didn't ship out.

Personal Ensign was a vastly overrated horse. I was making my own speed figures in those days and she just wasn't very good-- she caught Winning Colors on the downswing and the colts she beat in the Whitney were nothing special. (And she caught a huge track bias on Breeders' Cup day-- the only speed horse that won that day was Is It True, when Easy Goer hated the mud.) She had an undefeated record because she was managed to maintain an undefeated record. Note this doesn't have anything to do with soundness. When she was sound, they could have put her in against fields she would have lost to.

And specifically, the fact they campaigned for horse of the year after skipping the BC Classic was outrageous. Alysheba was one of the best horses of the 1980's. Phipps ran entries all the time. They could have run her. They didn't, because they knew she would have been up the track.


The horses she beat in the Whitney were "nothing special" according to you.

You really need to stop lecturing people and learn something about the horses you disparage before printing misinformation about them. Gulch won the BC Sprint, the Met Mile twice ( the first time as a 3YO against the likes of Broad Brush...in the midst of running in all three Triple Crown races ) as well as the Hopeful, Futurity, Saratoga Special and Tremont as a 2YO. As a 3YO he won the Bay Shore, Wood Memorial, the already mentioned Met Mile, as well as being 2nd in the Whitney and Woodward, and third in the Belmont ( a few days after winning the Met ). As a 4YO, in addition to winning the BC Sprint and Met Mile, he won the Carter and Potrero Grande ( yes, he was bi-coastal ), and was 2nd in the Vosburgh, Tom Fool, Californian, and the Whitney to the, apparently not so, great Personal Ensign.

Yeah, he was nothing special. Neither was King's Swan, except when he was winning 31 of 107 career starts and $1.9 million in the mid 80s, when that was an exceptional amount of money. More than a few times did he do this while carrying in excess of 130 pounds.

Who exactly are you to be denigrating champions like Personal Ensign when you think Champions like Gulch, and horses like King's Swan, are nothing special?

[TheEdge07]

The horses she beat in the Whitney were "nothing special" according to you.

You really need to stop lecturing people and learn something about the horses you disparage before printing misinformation about them. Gulch won the BC Sprint, the Met Mile twice ( the first time as a 3YO against the likes of Broad Brush...in the midst of running in all three Triple Crown races ) as well as the Hopeful, Futurity, Saratoga Special and Tremont as a 2YO. As a 3YO he won the Bay Shore, Wood Memorial, the already mentioned Met Mile, as well as being 2nd in the Whitney and Woodward, and third in the Belmont ( a few days after winning the Met ). As a 4YO, in addition to winning the BC Sprint and Met Mile, he won the Carter and Potrero Grande ( yes, he was bi-coastal ), and was 2nd in the Vosburgh, Tom Fool, Californian, and the Whitney to the, apparently not so, great Personal Ensign.

Yeah, he was nothing special. Neither was King's Swan, except when he was winning 31 of 107 career starts and $1.9 million in the mid 80s, when that was an exceptional amount of money. More than a few times did he do this while carrying in excess of 130 pounds.

Who exactly are you to be denigrating champions like Personal Ensign when you think Champions like Gulch, and horses like King's Swan, are nothing special?

Gulch was a great champion ..BUT had distance limitations 1 1/8 in the Whitney was a bit further then he wanted to run..Kings Swan was a 25,000 claimer who got really good for a long time..

[the little guy]

Gulch was a great champion ..BUT had distance limitations 1 1/8 in the Whitney was a bit further then he wanted to run..Kings Swan was a 25,000 claimer who got really good for a long time..


He won the Wood at 1 1/8 and was 3rd in the Belmont.

He was referred to as "nothing special" by that poster. That was an indefensibly stupid comment. Calling King's Swan a $25K claimer, no matter what your caveat, is like referring to Stymie as a $1500 claimer. It's irrelevant.

[OntheRail]

Didnt Rachel's connections duck her in one of the Apple Blossom (s) at Oaklawn (not Z's home track)


I believe if you look back, the weather in New Orleans was bad and the track at the time was closed due to flooding or such. So Rachel's works and training had been compromised quite a bit the month leading up to the Apple Blossom. I don't look at her missing that race as a duck.

[Pensacola Pete]

Miesque was better than both, in my opinion.

[TheEdge07]

He won the Wood at 1 1/8 and was 3rd in the Belmont.

He was referred to as "nothing special" by that poster. That was an indefensibly stupid comment. Calling King's Swan a $25K claimer, no matter what your caveat, is like referring to Stymie as a $1500 claimer. It's irrelevant.

TLG Kings Swan was a 25,000 claimer...He was running in claiming races at Aqueduct,he went claimers to competing in Grade one races without any help:rolleyes:

[PaceAdvantage]

Not knocking Cigar, he was terrific, but if there were internet message boards back then, we could easily find pages and pages of people knocking his competition.There were. You should have seen me defending Holy Bull's honor against those who claimed he could never get 10 furlongs on the likes of CompuServe and Prodigy bulletin boards.

Boy, those were the days. Hell, on Prodigy, you had to register and display your REAL NAME if you wanted to participate on the racing forums.

I believe Jerry Bailey and Tom Durkin even showed up for brief periods back then, believe it or not...

[classhandicapper]

TLG Kings Swan was a 25,000 claimer...He was running in claiming races at Aqueduct,he went claimers to competing in Grade one races without any help:rolleyes:

At the time, I considered Kings Swan a solid Grade 3 or marginal Grade 2 horse (which probably meant a little more back then than it does now).

IMO Gulch was a Grade 1 caliber sprinter/miler who could stretch a little further on talent, but really didn't want to go further.

Almost no Grade 1 race against males is a soft spot for a filly or mare, but as Grade 1 races for males go, that was a soft spot. But it was typical of the kind of spot great fillies and mares have been successful in when they took a shot against Grade 1 older males on dirt. So it's not something to be critical of. And like I said, you can't criticize the connections for not taking a shot in the Classic. The record of fillies and mares in legitimately deep 10F Grade 1 Classic dirt races against older males is pretty dreadful. It takes a pretty special performance to do very well.

[classhandicapper]

I believe if you look back, the weather in New Orleans was bad and the track at the time was closed due to flooding or such. So Rachel's works and training had been compromised quite a bit the month leading up to the Apple Blossom. I don't look at her missing that race as a duck.

IMO, Rachel had one of the greatest 3YO filly campaigns of all time, but they torched her doing it. So she needed a lot of time off to recover. They gave her the time off and intended to take on Zenyatta in the Apple Blossom (I think the schedule might have even been be tweaked slightly to accommodate Rachel better).

The problem was that she ran against Shirreff's 3rd string filly and lost
(Shirreffs had probably sent that filly to race Rachel in order to get a line on her relative to Zenyatta). When Rachel lost to the Shirreff's 3rd string filly, I think they knew they were either dealing with a still subpar Rachel and/or that she had no shot against Zenyatta. That's when they backed off.

Rachel was an absolute monster and terror for awhile, but IMHO she would have had no chance at all to hit the board going 10F against older Grade 1 males in a highly competitive Classic type race.

[dilanesp]

The horses she beat in the Whitney were "nothing special" according to you.

You really need to stop lecturing people and learn something about the horses you disparage before printing misinformation about them. Gulch won the BC Sprint, the Met Mile twice ( the first time as a 3YO against the likes of Broad Brush...in the midst of running in all three Triple Crown races ) as well as the Hopeful, Futurity, Saratoga Special and Tremont as a 2YO. As a 3YO he won the Bay Shore, Wood Memorial, the already mentioned Met Mile, as well as being 2nd in the Whitney and Woodward, and third in the Belmont ( a few days after winning the Met ). As a 4YO, in addition to winning the BC Sprint and Met Mile, he won the Carter and Potrero Grande ( yes, he was bi-coastal ), and was 2nd in the Vosburgh, Tom Fool, Californian, and the Whitney to the, apparently not so, great Personal Ensign.

Yeah, he was nothing special. Neither was King's Swan, except when he was winning 31 of 107 career starts and $1.9 million in the mid 80s, when that was an exceptional amount of money. More than a few times did he do this while carrying in excess of 130 pounds.

Who exactly are you to be denigrating champions like Personal Ensign when you think Champions like Gulch, and horses like King's Swan, are nothing special?

I bet Gulch in the BC Sprint. He hated two turns, which was the basis of my play. And King's Swan was a CLAIMER! One of the weakest Grade I fields in history, and a meaningless win for PE.

[TheEdge07]

I bet Gulch in the BC Sprint. He hated two turns, which was the basis of my play. And King's Swan was a CLAIMER! One of the weakest Grade I fields in history, and a meaningless win for PE.

A claimer who was juiced.

[classhandicapper]

A claimer who was juiced.

He did get quite good for awhile, but it's hard to make the case that a 3 horse field with King's Swan 3rd beaten between 15-20 lengths was the kind of test agains males that makes legends out of fillies/mares.

[the little guy]

I bet Gulch in the BC Sprint. He hated two turns, which was the basis of my play. And King's Swan was a CLAIMER! One of the weakest Grade I fields in history, and a meaningless win for PE.

His record belies your silly defense of your bad opinion.

A simple "oops" might have helped your substantial lack of credibility.

[TheEdge07]

He did get quite good for awhile, but it's hard to make the case that a 3 horse field with King's Swan 3rd beaten between 15-20 lengths was the kind of test agains males that makes legends out of fillies/mares.

3 horse field :bang: :bang:

Personal Ensign
King's Swan
Gulch

Tell you what she did beat a world class BC distaff field..

[nijinski]

I bet Gulch in the BC Sprint. He hated two turns, which was the basis of my play. And King's Swan was a CLAIMER! One of the weakest Grade I fields in history, and a meaningless win for PE.

I started out in this game watching the hard knocking Jameela . What heart she had in her career . Only to get struck by lightening in her paddock after retiring . She foaled two horses . One was Gulch . So he will always have a special place in my heart and I believe he earned a spot high up there too .

[dilanesp]

I started out in this game watching the hard knocking Jameela . What heart she had in her career . Only to get struck by lightening in her paddock after retiring . She foaled two horses . One was Gulch . So he will always have a special place in my heart and I believe he earned a spot high up there too .

I liked Gulch. He was well-bred (as you note), a successful sire, and a phenomenal sprinter and one-turn miler. But both his trainers (Jolley and Lukas) misjudged him and kept entering him in route races, the vast majority of which he lost. He just wasn't that good around 2 turns, and this was actually established when he was a 2 year old and first shipped to California after all those 1-turn wins in New York. And the pattern kept repeating throughout his career.

[sandpit]

I started out in this game watching the hard knocking Jameela . What heart she had in her career . Only to get struck by lightening in her paddock after retiring . She foaled two horses . One was Gulch . So he will always have a special place in my heart and I believe he earned a spot high up there too .

Very ironic that this story came up on this particular thread because Lure's dam, Grade 1 winner Endear, was struck and killed by lightning at Claiborne the year after Lure was born.

[the little guy]

I liked Gulch. He was well-bred (as you note), a successful sire, and a phenomenal sprinter and one-turn miler. But both his trainers (Jolley and Lukas) misjudged him and kept entering him in route races, the vast majority of which he lost. He just wasn't that good around 2 turns, and this was actually established when he was a 2 year old and first shipped to California after all those 1-turn wins in New York. And the pattern kept repeating throughout his career.

Yeah, a win in the Wood Memorial, two seconds in the Whitney ( one to Java Gold ), a third in the Belmont Stakes, and a second in the Californian, really back up your assertions.

You made a baseless comment and continue to dig a deeper hole with your every post.

[nijinski]

Very ironic that this story came up on this particular thread because Lure's dam, Grade 1 winner Endear, was struck and killed by lightning at Claiborne the year after Lure was born.

It is indeed ironic. Both young broodmares had only two foals before being struck .
However it's been a problem farms have had to deal with for a long time pastures and storms.

[dilanesp]

Yeah, a win in the Wood Memorial, two seconds in the Whitney ( one to Java Gold ), a third in the Belmont Stakes, and a second in the Californian, really back up your assertions.

You made a baseless comment and continue to dig a deeper hole with your every post.

How many lengths was he beaten in the Belmont?

That Wood field he beat was subpar- he came from a great crop but did he ever win a race against the top colts of his generation around 2 turns?

Meanwhile, compare his 2 turn record to his 1 turn record.

Sorry, but he was a champion around 1 turn but was merely a useful stakes horse around 2. Your ad hominem comments don't change that fact.

[the little guy]

How many lengths was he beaten in the Belmont?

That Wood field he beat was subpar- he came from a great crop but did he ever win a race against the top colts of his generation around 2 turns?

Meanwhile, compare his 2 turn record to his 1 turn record.

Sorry, but he was a champion around 1 turn but was merely a useful stakes horse around 2. Your ad hominem comments don't change that fact.

We get it, you can't admit you were wrong.

[wiffleball whizz]

Always love when people pose the question of comparing horses from different eras.
You can never be proven right or wrong, so it's pretty safe to fire away.
Strange how the horse from years past gets the higher rating 80% of the time.


Correct.....if your good today you not better then horses from years ago.....

What would a horse have to do today to be considered better then secretariat?

[RXB]

Gulch's record splits nicely into halves by distance:

<=Mile: 16/12-2-1
>Mile: 16/ 1-6-3


Back to the original topic, I think Lure and Wise Dan are fairly comparable horses. Lure maybe a touch better grass miler? Wise Dan a little more versatile.

[MJC922]

I said a similar thing about another top horse. It's a valid point. When one horse dominates a division, it has a tendency to make the rest of the division look less accomplished.

All that said, if you put a gun to my head I'd take Lure. Not so much that I believe he was clearly better. I just think US turf racing was generally stronger back then than it is now and he faced a particularly good group (including some good imports). Somewhere along the line, with foreigners buying so many of the top US horses, IMO the quality of our turf racing declined a bit. People recognize that it's not as strong as top Euro racing now, but I'm not so sure people realize that it may have been better at one time.

There's no doubt he's a special talent though.

Let's revisit this after BC Mile this year.

Hopefully he'll have a chance to prove even more if the Euros send of a few of their best milers. Then there's always next year!

Yeah let's hope they send some good ones. It might be the only time I ever get even money on this horse. I agree the fields he's faced lately have been suspect but he's seriously thrashing them and nobody would be doing it much easier Lure included. Ordinarily the Euros should be feared but if he stays sharp they're running for the place spot this time.

[the little guy]

Gulch's record splits nicely into halves by distance:

<=Mile: 16/12-2-1
>Mile: 16/ 1-6-3


Back to the original topic, I think Lure and Wise Dan are fairly comparable horses. Lure maybe a touch better grass miler? Wise Dan a little more versatile.


I was responding to his laughable comment that Gulch was " nothing special " and not what distance he was best at. Yes, he was better at one mile than 1 1/8 miles, but he also ran some terrific races at 1 1/8 miles and to deny that is somewhere between lunacy and idiocy. He beat Gone West in the Wood Memorial and finished a close 2nd to Java Gold in the Whitney, both at 1 1/8 miles. If that's "nothing special" then I guess I understand why he has such a bad opinion of any horse from the East Coast.

Honestly, let's stop pretending what this is really about. His posting in general has made that clear.

[dilanesp]

I was responding to his laughable comment that Gulch was " nothing special " and not what distance he was best at. Yes, he was better at one mile than 1 1/8 miles, but he also ran some terrific races at 1 1/8 miles and to deny that is somewhere between lunacy and idiocy. He beat Gone West in the Wood Memorial and finished a close 2nd to Java Gold in the Whitney, both at 1 1/8 miles. If that's "nothing special" then I guess I understand why he has such a bad opinion of any horse from the East Coast.

Honestly, let's stop pretending what this is really about. His posting in general has made that clear.

This is about as misleading a post as I have ever seen. YOU were just proven wrong, and want to change the subject.

Beating Gulch around 2 turns is meaningless. He lost FIFTEEN OF SIXTEEN TIMES. Whatever "this is really about", it isn't about you accurately estimating the abilities of Gulch.

[PaceAdvantage]

This is about as misleading a post as I have ever seen.How so? You said Gulch was nothing special. Those were your words. Nothing more, nothing less.

[dilanesp]

How so? You said Gulch was nothing special. Those were your words. Nothing more, nothing less.

Nothing special in the context of Personal Ensign's victory in the Whitney. I also said he was a great sprinter.

In other words, I completely accurately described his record. Meanwhile, the guy I am arguing with is citing things like his hitting the board in the Belmont (14 lengths back!) and ignoring that beating Gulch in a 2 turn race was so hard to do it only happened 15 out of 16 times.

Giving PE credit for beating Gulch is like giving Ferdinand credit for beating Groovy in the Kentucky Derby. EDIT: and before anyone complains, yes I know Gulch was a better rputer than Groovy.

[PaceAdvantage]

All I know is you stated the horses she beat in that race were "nothing special."

After reading that, any reasonable person would have to assume that you consider Gulch as nothing special...nothing more, nothing less.

[the little guy]

All I know is you stated the horses she beat in that race were "nothing special."

After reading that, any reasonable person would have to assume that you consider Gulch as nothing special...nothing more, nothing less.


He can't admit he said something indefensibly stupid and keeps trying to say even stupider things in an attempt to cover up his initial drivel. It's like slamming your thumb with a hammer to drive attention away from a headache.

Example....comparing Personal Ensign beating Gulch in the Whitney to Ferdinand beating Groovy in the Derby. It, honestly, doesn't get much dumber than that. It's possible that was the worst analogy ever.

[the little guy]

Giving PE credit for beating Gulch is like giving Ferdinand credit for beating Groovy in the Kentucky Derby. EDIT: and before anyone complains, yes I know Gulch was a better rputer than Groovy.


So let's get this straight...we can't mock this idiocy because even you know it's idiotic?

[iceknight]

So is this a thread about Wise Dan and Lure.. or can I start talking about Rapid Redux now?

[PaceAdvantage]

Go where your heart takes you man....go where your heart takes you... :lol:

You want Rapid Redux, you go for him.... :lol: :lol:

[cj]

Correct.....if your good today you not better then horses from years ago.....

What would a horse have to do today to be considered better then secretariat?

Win the Triple Crown and set track records that stand 40 years later would be a start.

[cj]

EDIT: and before anyone complains, yes I know Gulch was a better rputer than Groovy.

He was a better sprinter too.

[Tom]

Correct.....if your good today you not better then horses from years ago.....

What would a horse have to do today to be considered better then secretariat?

Move like a tremendous machine.

[iceknight]

Correct.....if your good today you not better then horses from years ago.....

What would a horse have to do today to be considered better then secretariat?
Be like Man O War

[dilanesp]

All I know is you stated the horses she beat in that race were "nothing special."

After reading that, any reasonable person would have to assume that you consider Gulch as nothing special...nothing more, nothing less.

Beating Gulch in a route race is nothing special. Gulch was not special as a router.

Seriously, by the way you are using the English language, if a horse beat Dash for Cash going 4 miles and someone else said "Dash for Cash was nothing special", in the context of saying that it wasn't a notable achievement, you would pretend not to understand what was meant.

[dilanesp]

So let's get this straight...we can't mock this idiocy because even you know it's idiotic?

No, you can't pretend I didn't make an analogy. People on the Internet have trouble with analogies. They dishonestly pretend that analogies "equivalence" two things, rather than comparing them. And as a result, anyone who uses an analogy gets attacked.

So I was pretermitting that.

[dilanesp]

He was a better sprinter too.

Not really. Gulch accomplished more. Most of what Groovy did was run really fast after setting slow paces in New York sprints against short fields. Gulch won 2 Met Miles over very good fields, and the BC sprint (a race Groovy lost twice, both times because he couldn't actually handle pace pressure).

[the little guy]

Not really. Gulch accomplished more. Most of what Groovy did was run really fast after setting slow paces in New York sprints against short fields. Gulch won 2 Met Miles over very good fields, and the BC sprint (a race Groovy lost twice, both times because he couldn't actually handle pace pressure).


I have to give you credit, while it is virtually impossible to top your " nothing special " claim for sheer foolishness, but you sure are giving it a run for the money.

We get it, your West Coast bias has melted your brain. There is little need for more proof.

[the little guy]

Beating Gulch in a route race is nothing special. Gulch was not special as a router.




More indefensible stupidity.

I guess nobody told Java Gold. Oh, that's right, he never ran on the West Coast, so he was a bum. Silly me.

[PaceAdvantage]

Beating Gulch in a route race is nothing special. Gulch was not special as a router.

Seriously, by the way you are using the English language, if a horse beat Dash for Cash going 4 miles and someone else said "Dash for Cash was nothing special", in the context of saying that it wasn't a notable achievement, you would pretend not to understand what was meant.Someone who knows how to use the English language would have made sure to qualify their original remark, which you did not.

We are not here to interpret your version of scripture. We generally take things at face value, as we should.

[the little guy]

Someone who knows how to use the English language would have made sure to qualify their original remark, which you did not.

We are not here to interpret your version of scripture. We generally take things at face value, as we should.


If you throw in a dash of West Coast bias you might have understood more clearly.

[classhandicapper]

This thread has reached the comical threshold.

[taxicab]

I think Lure was the better horse at a flat mile on the lawn.
I also think if the two of them had lined up in "fantasy" match race at those conditions, Lure would of prevailed.

[Stillriledup]

A year later....Wise Dan keeps piling on..
:ThmbUp:

[classhandicapper]

I don't even think Wise Dan is as good as he used to be, but somehow I am less certain of my own opinion earlier in the thread than Lure was probably a bit better because US turf racing was better back in those days than it is now. :confused:

[GMB@BP]

I don't even think Wise Dan is as good as he used to be, but somehow I am less certain of my own opinion earlier in the thread than Lure was probably a bit better because US turf racing was better back in those days than it is now. :confused:

Its a canyon size difference, we used to have some really solid turf horses back then, good enough to win races abroad.

[castaway01]

It's unfortunate that Wise Dan is out of the Breeders Cup; it would have been very interesting to see if he had enough left to win another big one. Might have been a great bet-against too at low odds, but now we'll never know.

[Stillriledup]

A year later....Wise Dan keeps piling on..
:ThmbUp:

Wow, i put the kibosh on Wise Dan. CJ is right, i'm the biggest mush here, i'm impossible to overcome :D

[classhandicapper]

Its a canyon size difference, we used to have some really solid turf horses back then, good enough to win races abroad.

It's hard to tell how we would do over there because we rarely ship there to run. You can only tell by how the Euros do over here.

I think you can make a case that since Animal Kingdom did very well against an international field (albeit on synth) and Wise Dan also beat Excelebration in that same BC Mile, he has the same quality. He just may not have been tested at that really high level as often as Lure. Then again, Wise Dan doesn't lose. ;)

[horses4courses]

Its a canyon size difference, we used to have some really solid turf horses back then, good enough to win races abroad.

Name one US horse from back in the "golden era" who won abroad.
I'm not counting Dubai.

Fourstars Allstar won the Irish 2000 Guineas in 1991.
Beyond that, it's pretty much a non-starter.

[GMB@BP]

Name one US horse from back in the "golden era" who won abroad.
I'm not counting Dubai.

Fourstars Allstar won the Irish 2000 Guineas in 1991.
Beyond that, it's pretty much a non-starter.

Pretty sure we had horses win in Dubai and in Japan...but it was a long time ago.

I do remember Kent blowing the Japan Turf Cup by misjudging the finish line.

Do we have turf horses who can win the Japan Cup today?

[horses4courses]

Pretty sure we had horses win in Dubai and in Japan...but it was a long time ago.

I do remember Kent blowing the Japan Turf Cup by misjudging the finish line.

Do we have turf horses who can win the Japan Cup today?

Point Of Entry and Animal Kingdom were up to it at 10 furlongs last year.
This year? Not so good, but some years we have grade-A turf routers.

[GMB@BP]

Point Of Entry and Animal Kingdom were up to it at 10 furlongs last year.
This year? Not so good, but some years we have grade-A turf routers.

Our turf horses as a collective are no where close to what they were 20-25 years ago, I dont think its close.

The second best horse to run against Lure for two years, Paradise Creek is so far better than anything Wise Dan has been running against.

Point of Entry would have been a Grade 2 winner if he had to compete in grade 1 races with the likes of Fraise, Golden Pheasant, Prized, Sky Classic....etc.

[taxicab]

Wow, i put the kibosh on Wise Dan. CJ is right, i'm the biggest mush here, i'm impossible to overcome :D
Hey!
Hey!...
That's not true!
There is no way in the world you are a mush SRU......
But....
Just out of curiosity....
Who do you project running better in the Classic....?
Shared Belief or California Chrome ?
No reason...
Just making small talk. :)

[horses4courses]

Our turf horses as a collective are no where close to what they were 20-25 years ago, I dont think its close.

The second best horse to run against Lure for two years, Paradise Creek is so far better than anything Wise Dan has been running against.

Point of Entry would have been a Grade 2 winner if he had to compete in grade 1 races with the likes of Fraise, Golden Pheasant, Prized, Sky Classic....etc.

Are these horses better according to you, or do the Beyers back this up?

[classhandicapper]

Our turf horses as a collective are no where close to what they were 20-25 years ago, I dont think its close.

The second best horse to run against Lure for two years, Paradise Creek is so far better than anything Wise Dan has been running against.

Point of Entry would have been a Grade 2 winner if he had to compete in grade 1 races with the likes of Fraise, Golden Pheasant, Prized, Sky Classic....etc.

Paradise Creek was a terror in his own right. There's no doubt about that. They were 2 great turfers that came along at the same time. (PC missed a nose in the Japan Cup at 12F which was not even his distance)

Star of Cozzene was another terror at that time.

I'm not so sure Excelebration wasn't in that class also though. You can argue he didn't fire his "A" race in the BC Mile, but if it wasn't for Frankel, Excelebration would have had quite a record.

Just a note: I don't think you can compare the horses of the 90s with current horses off Beyer speed figures. His figures have been shrinking. Maybe it has to do with no steroids or other factors, but they aren't comparable anymore unless you think top US horses have declined 5-6 points in recent years. To be honest, I think it's a very bad idea to use figures of any kind for comparisons like that. There's no good way to control for figure drift due to methodology quirks, legal and illegal drug use, or changing training techniques. To illustrate the point, Thorograph has had horses getting faster over time.

[GMB@BP]

Are these horses better according to you, or do the Beyers back this up?

Yea they were better according to me......and why would I not say a horse was better because they ran in 2010 versus 1990 if the horses were better.

Horses like English Channel and Better Talk Now, they are nice horse and some of the best of the past decade but they just could not compete with the best we saw when Lure and other turfers were running back then.

I dont think my opinion is the minority.

Beyer figures on turf, especially back then, are not very reliable.

Kotoshan and Bien Bien in 1993 tore up a very strong Euro contingent in the turf, Lure beat the likes of Ski Paradise, Barathea, Flawlessly, etc in the mile. This was not an unusual occurrence, we were competitive with the best Euro horses that were coming over. Wise Dan would have competed well with those horses I think, his wining streak would have been tougher achieved if he was running against the same horses Lure did.

[ILovetheInner]

Yea they were better according to me......and why would I not say a horse was better because they ran in 2010 versus 1990 if the horses were better.

Horses like English Channel and Better Talk Now, they are nice horse and some of the best of the past decade but they just could not compete with the best we saw when Lure and other turfers were running back then.

I dont think my opinion is the minority.

Beyer figures on turf, especially back then, are not very reliable.

Kotoshan and Bien Bien in 1993 tore up a very strong Euro contingent in the turf, Lure beat the likes of Ski Paradise, Barathea, Flawlessly, etc in the mile. This was not an unusual occurrence, we were competitive with the best Euro horses that were coming over. Wise Dan would have competed well with those horses I think, his wining streak would have been tougher achieved if he was running against the same horses Lure did.

Not sure that's a fair comparison though. IMO it took the Euros time to figure things out. Not necessarily the best horse, but the right one.....sending Zilzal over was a terrible idea, Barathea beat himself against Lure and needed a do-over. Kotashaan's field was good, but if I recall he was still heavily favored and Luazur....who failed to attain Group I type in Europe before shipping over....beat them as well. I think the Euros now are far more masters on these BC ships than they were back then.

[classhandicapper]

One thing we can all agree on is that we've seen some great turf horses in the US too. The memories!

[RXB]

Name one US horse from back in the "golden era" who won abroad.
I'm not counting Dubai.

Fourstars Allstar won the Irish 2000 Guineas in 1991.
Beyond that, it's pretty much a non-starter.

Golden Pheasant won the Japan Cup that same year.

I can't think of any horse that was both US-bred and US-based that won a Group 1 turf race since Golden Pheasant. They rarely bother to try as generally the connections know what the result would be, especially at 12f. At least at a mile there might be a chance.

[horses4courses]

Regardless of whether, or not, we think the US can still
produce turf horses of a high caliber, I think we can all
get a kick out of reading this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington,_D.C._International_Stakes

The list of winners in this great turf race really jogs the memory :ThmbUp:

[RXB]

Okay, it dawned on me that Wesley Ward had sent over a couple of 2YO sprinters that won summer Euro stakes, so I checked and indeed one of them was a Group 1 in France (No Nay Never won the Prix Morny last year).

[horses4courses]

Okay, it dawned on me that Wesley Ward had sent over a couple of 2YO sprinters that won summer Euro stakes, so I checked and indeed one of them was a Group 1 in France (No Nay Never won the Prix Morny last year).

If purses were higher over there, I believe that US trainers would ship
to Europe more often - especially in May and June.

Wintering in, say, Florida is much more beneficial to a horse than
most other equine headquarters in the northern hemisphere.
It's a big advantage coming out of winter from a warm climate.

As things stand, there really isn't much incentive to ship eastwards.
Purses in the US are higher, for the most part.

[RXB]

As things stand, there really isn't much incentive to ship eastwards.
Purses in the US are higher, for the most part.

Group 1 Euro turf purses are not lower than US Grade 1 turf purses.