Its time for NYRA to stop coupling horses.

[Stillriledup]

Cmon guys, its 2013.

If one part of an entry is scratched, the other part runs for purse only....even if the horse who is scratched was a horse you hated and you were essentially betting on the other horse.

Or, in the case of Tiz Gianni, you got 3-1 because he was coupled with no hoper Mia Poppy the other day.

California has been uncoupling horses for a long time now, it creates extra betting interests, extra income and doesnt put horseplayers in a position to have to bet on horses they don't want to bet on.

You stay up till 4am "burning the midnight oil" as Harvey loves to say, so what happens when a horse you've been sitting on for weeks shows up coupled with a horse you think stinks? Not fun.

Time to welcome yourselves to 2013.

[DeltaLover]

Cmon guys, its 2013.

If one part of an entry is scratched, the other part runs for purse only....even if the horse who is scratched was a horse you hated and you were essentially betting on the other horse.

Or, in the case of Tiz Gianni, you got 3-1 because he was coupled with no hoper Mia Poppy the other day.

California has been uncoupling horses for a long time now, it creates extra betting interests, extra income and doesnt put horseplayers in a position to have to bet on horses they don't want to bet on.

You stay up till 4am "burning the midnight oil" as Harvey loves to say, so what happens when a horse you've been sitting on for weeks shows up coupled with a horse you think stinks? Not fun.

Time to welcome yourselves to 2013.
:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

[the little guy]

Who knew "NYRA" coupled horses.

You just learn so much on the internet. In fact, the more you actually know, the more you can learn.

Sort of.

[SandyW]

Who knew "NYRA" coupled horses.

You just learn so much on the internet. In fact, the more you actually know, the more you can learn.

Sort of.

We all know NYRA couples horses to the detriment of the horseplayer, it time for NYRA to wake up and move into the 21st century.

[Some_One]

We all know NYRA couples horses to the detriment of the horseplayer, it time for NYRA to wake up and move into the 21st century.

I think Andy is maybe hinting that it isn't NYRA who created that rule but some other oversight/government/regulatory group that enforced that rule. Of course I could be totally wrong.

[wiffleball whizz]

Who knew "NYRA" coupled horses.

You just learn so much on the internet. In fact, the more you actually know, the more you can learn.

Sort of.


If NYRA needs a electrician to fix the inquiry light I can have it arranged by 10am..........

Don't worry Andy u can pick me apart in the pools tmrw!!!!!!

[magwell]

Who knew "NYRA" coupled horses.

You just learn so much on the internet. In fact, the more you actually know, the more you can learn.

Sort of. Now, that's way funny ,who knew ? ;)

[SandyW]

I think Andy is maybe hinting that it isn't NYRA who created that rule but some other oversight/government/regulatory group that enforced that rule. Of course I could be totally wrong.

If this is the case , I'm sure that if NYRA was to make an effort to get the rule changed to uncouple entries, that sooner or later it would be done.

[pandy]

Get rid of entries!

[wiffleball whizz]

Get rid of entries!


THIS!!!!!!!

Also in the year 2013 can we not be dark for live racing on the holy days like Good Friday, Palm Sunday Passover or whatever those days are called......it's comedy at its finest that its either NYRA choice or ny state choice to be dark for live racing but yet 100 feet from the track the casino is in full swing

Spare me the bullshit

And when will we get a response on this no inquiry

[TravisVOX]

I'm willing to be most racetracks would love to be able to change certain rules they don't make but have to follow.

[therussmeister]

Whilst I would prefer no coupled entries, I would be satisfied enough if the State of New York got rid of the rule: coupled entry = no superfecta

[Stillriledup]

THIS!!!!!!!

Also in the year 2013 can we not be dark for live racing on the holy days like Good Friday, Palm Sunday Passover or whatever those days are called......it's comedy at its finest that its either NYRA choice or ny state choice to be dark for live racing but yet 100 feet from the track the casino is in full swing

Spare me the bullshit

And when will we get a response on this no inquiry

"Either NYRA choice or NY State Choice" Good one Whizz, you don't want the Grammar police to give you a swatting! :D

Its funny how some racetracks get confused as to whether they are racetracks or houses of religion. I know when i go to NYRA on the Saturday before that dark Sunday you talk about, they ought have a sign on the front gates that says "racetrack today, house of worship tomorrow".

[wiffleball whizz]

"Either NYRA choice or NY State Choice" Good one Whizz, you don't want the Grammar police to give you a swatting! :D

Its funny how some racetracks get confused as to whether they are racetracks or houses of religion. I know when i go to NYRA on the Saturday before that dark Sunday you talk about, they ought have a sign on the front gates that says "racetrack today, house of worship tomorrow".

Love how they close in observance of some of these holidays.....like the horse bettors there that are barbarians really care

I'm sure they aren't eating meat and attending church those days.......nyra is a joke sometimes/all the time

[Tom]

People whine about short fields every day, then complain about a three day vacation for Easter? If you have to bet that bad, try crack. Might ease the jitters. :D

[therussmeister]

People whine about short fields every day, then complain about a three day vacation for Easter? If you have to bet that bad, try crack. Might ease the jitters. :D
I used to think like this all the time until I realized some people might have very limited opportunities to indulge in their favorite pastime.

[wiffleball whizz]

I used to think like this all the time until I realized some people might have very limited opportunities to indulge in their favorite pastime.


Correct only a few hours a week to gamble.......

[Stillriledup]

People whine about short fields every day, then complain about a three day vacation for Easter? If you have to bet that bad, try crack. Might ease the jitters. :D

There are plenty of "Days off" during the winter and early spring due to weather cancellations. Also, they only run 5 days a week as it is, people don't need to sit around twiddling their thumbs while horses they have notes on are sitting in the barn. Also, i think a lot of the complaints is that people don't like to have religion forced down their throats, they don't want to be told how or when to "celebrate". If you operate a racetrack, run races. If you operate a church, you can celebrate religious holidays. :ThmbUp:

[Steve 'StatMan']

FWIW - If people who owned and/or trained horses only entered one horse per race, there wouldn't be any coupled entries.

[wiffleball whizz]

There are plenty of "Days off" during the winter and early spring due to weather cancellations. Also, they only run 5 days a week as it is, people don't need to sit around twiddling their thumbs while horses they have notes on are sitting in the barn. Also, i think a lot of the complaints is that people don't like to have religion forced down their throats, they don't want to be told how or when to "celebrate". If you operate a racetrack, run races. If you operate a church, you can celebrate religious holidays. :ThmbUp:


Can you start the official "NYRA is getting old thread?"

[Stillriledup]

Can you start the official "NYRA is getting old thread?"

I would, except, some people who have NYRA tattooed on their Blanks would have their panties in an uproar! Also, if NYRA is getting "old" i'm sure someone would come in here and tell you that they really have "nothing to do" with the races in NY and its all some other regulatory body who's in charge. :D

[wiffleball whizz]

I would, except, some people who have NYRA tattooed on their Blanks would have their panties in an uproar! Also, if NYRA is getting "old" i'm sure someone would come in here and tell you that they really have "nothing to do" with the races in NY and its all some other regulatory body who's in charge. :D

Correct there nyra is off limits here

[cj]

Fans don't really care if it is NYRA or the NY state rules that is responsible, no different than any other circuit. Confusing the two doesn't mean the point about entries isn't a valid one. Nobody starts a thread about an issue at Laurel and blames the Maryland government.

It isn't the fault of fans that New York is probably the most corrupt, slow acting state government in the country, especially when it comes to racing.

[Tom]

Probably?
And just racing?

:lol:

[cj]

Probably?
And just racing?

:lol:

Just trying to stick to racing!

[TravisVOX]

Fans don't really care if it is NYRA or the NY state rules that is responsible, no different than any other circuit. Confusing the two doesn't mean the point about entries isn't a valid one. Nobody starts a thread about an issue at Laurel and blames the Maryland government.

It isn't the fault of fans that New York is probably the most corrupt, slow acting state government in the country, especially when it comes to racing.

Felt like the thread was more of a bash NYRA thread than a true discussion on the need for regulators to catch-up with the times. For what it's worth, entries should go away, but I won't hold my breath.

[ronsmac]

Fans don't really care if it is NYRA or the NY state rules that is responsible, no different than any other circuit. Confusing the two doesn't mean the point about entries isn't a valid one. Nobody starts a thread about an issue at Laurel and blames the Maryland government.

It isn't the fault of fans that New York is probably the most corrupt, slow acting state government in the country, especially when it comes to racing.
It only took Aqueduct about 10 yrs to get their slots, that was much faster than i thought it would take.

[cj]

Felt like the thread was more of a bash NYRA thread than a true discussion on the need for regulators to catch-up with the times. For what it's worth, entries should go away, but I won't hold my breath.

Maybe it was, but the point about entries made sense so I didn't take it that way. Some fans hate non-coupled entries, some like them. It depends on which horse wins sometimes.

Regardless of the topic, if it involves New York racing, people are going to incorrectly use NYRA generically. It has been going on for decades, and probably will as long as NYRA is around.

That doesn't change the fact that there might be an issue. Bettors don't really care which party is responsible. I think about it this way. What is more likely to result in action? Fans complaining to NYRA about something, and them in turn working with the state to get it changed, or fans complaining to a state representative?

[Jeff P]

In some states (CA and AZ are just two examples) it is track management, state racing boards, and horseman's alphabet groups who lobby state governments (quietly and behind the scenes) to get anti-player language written into state law.

In CA the most recent example was SB1072 and 22.68% exacta takeout.

In AZ the most recent example was a state law passed in 2007 that made betting a horse race by phone or by internet a FELONY for both player and bet taker.

"It's not us. We're just obeying state law."

Every time I hear those words coming from someone whose employer had an active role in creating the problem.. or nearly just as bad, whose employer sat idly by from the sidelines without lifting a finger watching while some new anti-player thing got written into state law or got enacted as a rule or a reg...

Suddenly, racing's long term handle trend over the past 10 years or so (minus 33 percent not adjusted for inflation) makes perfect sense.



-jp

.

[thespaah]

THIS!!!!!!!

Also in the year 2013 can we not be dark for live racing on the holy days like Good Friday, Palm Sunday Passover or whatever those days are called......it's comedy at its finest that its either NYRA choice or ny state choice to be dark for live racing but yet 100 feet from the track the casino is in full swing

Spare me the bullshit

And when will we get a response on this no inquiry
I guess the dark days you mentioned are tradition if nothing else.
Same as the KY Derby is held on the first Saturday in May, NYRA is Dark on the Catholic High Holy days.
Makes little sense is our mainly secular society, but as it is said, "It is what it is"..

[thespaah]

I do not believe it is NYRA which makes the rules on coupled entries.
I think the governing authority on this issue is the New York State Gaming Commission...Formerly the NYS Racing and Wagering Board...
I have searched the Commission website and cannot find the rules governing coupled betting interests, coupled entries or anything like that.
I have used a few different terms in a search bar and have come up empty.
Anyone?

[Stillriledup]

Fans don't really care if it is NYRA or the NY state rules that is responsible, no different than any other circuit. Confusing the two doesn't mean the point about entries isn't a valid one. Nobody starts a thread about an issue at Laurel and blames the Maryland government.

It isn't the fault of fans that New York is probably the most corrupt, slow acting state government in the country, especially when it comes to racing.

Thank you. True.... fans don't care whether its NYRA or partially NYRA, they are their races, their banner is up on the screen, so they get the blame.

[cj]

I guess the dark days you mentioned are tradition if nothing else.
Same as the KY Derby is held on the first Saturday in May, NYRA is Dark on the Catholic High Holy days.
Makes little sense is our mainly secular society, but as it is said, "It is what it is"..

It isn't tradition, it is law.

[thespaah]

It isn't tradition, it is law.
No kidding. I had no idea.
Thanks.

[PaceAdvantage]

If this is the case , I'm sure that if NYRA was to make an effort to get the rule changed to uncouple entries, that sooner or later it would be done.Yes, because NY State, Cuomo and NYRA have had such a long history of cooperation and are never battling each other...I see your point... :rolleyes:

[PaceAdvantage]

Correct there nyra is off limits hereIn what way?

Please, enlighten me...

This goes for anyone else who wants to step up..

[OTM Al]

I do not believe it is NYRA which makes the rules on coupled entries.
I think the governing authority on this issue is the New York State Gaming Commission...Formerly the NYS Racing and Wagering Board...
I have searched the Commission website and cannot find the rules governing coupled betting interests, coupled entries or anything like that.
I have used a few different terms in a search bar and have come up empty.
Anyone?

They are in there. 4025.10 which is on p79, a little more than half way through the document. Matter of fact there seems to be a rule that says if two horses are running for the same trainer they must be coupled but certainly there must be a way they have found to get around that one. Just think, it could be worse.

[thespaah]

They are in there. 4025.10 which is on p79, a little more than half way through the document. Matter of fact there seems to be a rule that says if two horses are running for the same trainer they must be coupled but certainly there must be a way they have found to get around that one. Just think, it could be worse.
Thanks..Did you know where it was or did you have to search? If you searched, what were the keywords used?

[OTM Al]

Thanks..Did you know where it was or did you have to search? If you searched, what were the keywords used?
Just went on the Racing Commission web site and looked at section headers until I found what I was looking for. Pretty much everything is in that doc.

[wiffleball whizz]

In what way?

Please, enlighten me...

This goes for anyone else who wants to step up..


You know what I mean I'm just saying nyra is well represented here.....hard to explain

[thespaah]

They are in there. 4025.10 which is on p79, a little more than half way through the document. Matter of fact there seems to be a rule that says if two horses are running for the same trainer they must be coupled but certainly there must be a way they have found to get around that one. Just think, it could be worse.
Actually there is a provision for common ownership....
(b) All horses in common ownership as defined in section 4026.2(e) of this Title (i.e., having any
common managing owner) or section 4026.3(c) (i.e., in which there is a 25 percent commonality
among nonmanaging owners) must be coupled and run as an entry.
And then there is the trainer rule which does not seem to be enforced..
(d) All horses trained by the same trainer must be coupled and run as an entry.
Then there is this rule which also seems to be ignored or there must be some kind of provision I cannot find......
(c) Not more than two horses trained by the same person shall be drawn into any overnight race,
or on the also-eligible list, to the exclusion of another horse.
By 'overnight' they refer to 'overnight stakes' or those high end allowance races?
Anyway, do these rules seem somewhat outdated to you?
I always thought these rules existed to at least slow down and 'hanky panky'..

[thespaah]

Just went on the Racing Commission web site and looked at section headers until I found what I was looking for. Pretty much everything is in that doc.
I was looking in the wrong place. Thanks for your help!

[wiffleball whizz]

Plus nyra counts for about 77.6 percent of horse talk here.....walks on water there was a terrible no inquiry that stunk tht is getting swept under the rug

[Stillriledup]

If NYRA decides that the rule kind of stinks and makes a push to change it, they may or may not get it changed. If they make no attempt to change it, its pretty unlikely that some state agency is going to be proactive and make this change without NYRA making the first move.

What doesnt make sense to me is that its not hard to find data that suggests larger field size leads to increased handle. Why they're leaving this money on the table is beyond me.

This is why you hire stewards, so they can "police" the sport. When you couple horses, what they're essentially saying is that they aren't interested in "sniffing out" improprieties and they would rather just have horses coupled to "protect" the bettors.

NY racing did well to get a 15% pick 5, they finally have gotten into the 21st century getting on board with an EXTREMELY popular bet that almost every major track has on their menu, its now time to get these horses uncoupled. If you're worried about collusion and whatnut, that's why we have stewards, they can punish the offenders if something happens....but i'd be willing to bet that almost all bettors would be willing to take the risk to have uncoupled situations in every race. Serious bettors see a horse uncoupled with same owner or trainer, they know its part of handicapping and it certainly gets factored into their analysis before they make their wagers.

Lets go!

[PaceAdvantage]

You know what I mean I'm just saying nyra is well represented here.....hard to explainNo, what you said was NYRA was "off-limits here."

That to me implies I somehow censor people from talking negatively about NYRA, which certainly isn't the case.

People are free to criticize NYRA (and do) as often as they wish.

[PaceAdvantage]

Of course, if they do eliminate the couplings then SRU will be on here crying foul every time the longer priced half of an uncoupled entry wins.

[Stillriledup]

Of course, if they do eliminate the couplings then SRU will be on here crying foul every time the longer priced half of an uncoupled entry wins.

The longer priced uncoupled has won plenty of times at plenty of tracks since i've been a member of this board. Can you find one of my posts where i've complained about the longer price winning?

[PaceAdvantage]

The longer priced uncoupled has won plenty of times at plenty of tracks since i've been a member of this board. Can you find one of my posts where i've complained about the longer price winning?The context of my prior reply carries no burden of proof on my part. I'm not basing my statement on past performance. I am purely speculating on future performance.

[speed]

The context of my prior reply carries no burden of proof on my part. I'm not basing my statement on past performance. I am purely speculating on future performance.
Did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night? :)

[Stillriledup]

late scratch of one of the entry mates at Finger Lakes, causing the other half to race for purse only.

Wonderful.

And, both horses appear to have seperate owners, unless the one owner is part of the syndicate that owns the scratched horse.

What a mess.

[cj]

late scratch of one of the entry mates at Finger Lakes, causing the other half to race for purse only.

Wonderful.

And, both horses appear to have seperate owners, unless the one owner is part of the syndicate that owns the scratched horse.

What a mess.

Finger Lakes is the King of Couplings!

[Stillriledup]

Finger Lakes is the King of Couplings!

Doing everything they can to create LESS betting interests. Its amazing, maybe Tom has a thought on why FL is the "king of couplings"

[cj]

Doing everything they can to create LESS betting interests. Its amazing, maybe Tom has a thought on why FL is the "king of couplings"

Indiana Downs might challenge them. Can't think of any others even close though.

[iceknight]

Probably?
And just racing?

:lol: I will take 10-1 that PA or DC is more corrupt than NY anyday

[Tom]

Doing everything they can to create LESS betting interests. Its amazing, maybe Tom has a thought on why FL is the "king of couplings"

We don't have an :8: saddle cloth.

[Stillriledup]

We don't have an :8: saddle cloth.

Wow :D

[wiffleball whizz]

Indiana Downs might challenge them. Can't think of any others even close though.


Oh my god I've been beat by the 3x or 3c more times then I can count

(harness talk deleted by CJ)

[Stillriledup]

Maybe they should start coupling jocks who are related. Not that i'm talking about todays' 2nd race or anything. ;)

[Stillriledup]

Loved Star Grazing today, thought she was far superior in real life than her PPs indicated...so, they couple her with a fancy bred firster and she wins and the fancy firster runs 2nd, both raced well.

I might have been able to get 4 bucks on the 1a if these were uncoupled.

[Stillriledup]

You can bet on 1X today in the feetch.

Not just 1 or 1a, but 1x.

3 for the price of ...uh, 3.

[thespaah]

You can bet on 1X today in the feetch.

Not just 1 or 1a, but 1x.

3 for the price of ...uh, 3.
Not sure what you mean...An entry is an entry.....It is one betting interest.
I'm looking at TVG's on line tote....It's a coupled entry for wagering purposes.

[Stillriledup]

Not sure what you mean...An entry is an entry.....It is one betting interest.
I'm looking at TVG's on line tote....It's a coupled entry for wagering purposes.

And its a good thing they were coupled too because its important for integrity.

[thespaah]

And its a good thing they were coupled too because its important for integrity.
I was looking for an answer to my question.
Thanks

[Stillriledup]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/92901/new-york-coupled-entry-rules-modified?source=rss

[pandy]

This is a step in the right direction. Entries are absurd.

[cj]

This is a step in the right direction. Entries are absurd.

I can see both sides of it. Will be interesting to see how certain trainers that control the claiming game in New York take advantage of this. What the new rule does is make it even more "people racing" than "horse racing" in my opinion. Some people like that, some don't.

[pandy]

I agree, there are people that like entries, but I believe that surveys have shown well over 65% are opposed to them.

[thespaah]

This is a step in the right direction. Entries are absurd.
They are absurd until an investigation discovers unusual betting patterns and/or manipulation of the finishing order...
Hopefully every one involved will remember to maintain integrity.

[Stillriledup]

What is the purpose of entries? What's the logic?

[cj]

What is the purpose of entries? What's the logic?

The intent was to stop trainers from playing games.

[cj]

They are absurd until an investigation discovers unusual betting patterns and/or manipulation of the finishing order...
Hopefully every one involved will remember to maintain integrity.

Yep, that is the danger.

[Stillriledup]

The intent was to stop trainers from playing games.

But can't they play games anyway? Same w jocks if a jock is riding for a trainer who has 2 in the race he might help out the other trainers horse without even caring if its coupled or not.

This may be a bad example but the Ramsey horse in the big race at Monmouth who won wasnt there another Ramsey 99-1 rolling on the front end? They weren't coupled but were probably ridden the same way coupled or not.

[thespaah]

What is the purpose of entries? What's the logic?
The intent is to prevent horses of common ownership from being used to manipulate the order of finish or to create a desired order of finish for the purpose of cashing wagers
Hey, back in the day, it was much worse.
So for example there were 4 horses in which two had a common trainer and two others with common ownership....And let's say the ownership was in part one of the trainers that was part of the two other trained by him....That would result in an entry of 4 horses.
Coupled entries were not a real issue when most fields were full...Now with short fields and the ridiculous number of scratches, entries are a big PITA

[Stillriledup]

The intent is to prevent horses of common ownership from being used to manipulate the order of finish or to create a desired order of finish for the purpose of cashing wagers
Hey, back in the day, it was much worse.
So for example there were 4 horses in which two had a common trainer and two others with common ownership....And let's say the ownership was in part one of the trainers that was part of the two other trained by him....That would result in an entry of 4 horses.
Coupled entries were not a real issue when most fields were full...Now with short fields and the ridiculous number of scratches, entries are a big PITA

Can't they have separate betting interests and if there's rider manipulation, hand down a huge fine and suspension to deter that behavior? Why put the onus on the horseplayer?

[thespaah]

But can't they play games anyway? Same w jocks if a jock is riding for a trainer who has 2 in the race he might help out the other trainers horse without even caring if its coupled or not.

This may be a bad example but the Ramsey horse in the big race at Monmouth who won wasnt there another Ramsey 99-1 rolling on the front end? They weren't coupled but were probably ridden the same way coupled or not.
The only way to detect this is unusual betting patterns.

[thespaah]

Can't they have separate betting interests and if there's rider manipulation, hand down a huge fine and suspension to deter that behavior? Why put the onus on the horseplayer?
Well, if it happens the onus IS on the horseplayer..In other word, the horse players get screwed by the cheating.....
IN effect you are asking the "fox to guard the chicken coop".

[Stillriledup]

The only way to detect this is unusual betting patterns.

Nothing is unusual to the racing industry. There are odd bets and odd patterns all the time and nobody in the game cares or investigates.

[thespaah]

Nothing is unusual to the racing industry. There are odd bets and odd patterns all the time and nobody in the game cares or investigates.
Notwithstanding your ever present cynicism, I believe there is indeed enforcement of the rules.
SRU, sometimes your comments leave me scratching my head in wonderment in trying to figure out just what it is about horse racing that holds even your most fleeting interest.

[pandy]

Sorry guys, entries do not make any sense and never have. You can't make up dumb rules just in case something happens. You may as well run all the races as non betting events, then bettors can't possibly get screwed because no one can bet.

It's gambling. Sure, sometimes with uncoupled entries the longer odds horse will win, big deal. These idiots complain but nothing happened, it's a horse race, the longer odds horse won, big deal. If you want to cry after you lose, please, don't bet!

[thespaah]

Sorry guys, entries do not make any sense and never have. You can't make up dumb rules just in case something happens. You may as well run all the races as non betting events, then bettors can't possibly get screwed because no one can bet.

It's gambling. Sure, sometimes with uncoupled entries the longer odds horse will win, big deal. These idiots complain but nothing happened, it's a horse race, the longer odds horse won, big deal. If you want to cry after you lose, please, don't bet!
They make sense in one regard. Use of entries gives the appearance that there is something being done..
I neither agree nor disagree with coupled entries. Quite frankly, until lately with so many fields coming up short, i never gave coupled entries much thought
Now I think it's time to reconsider their use at all.

[Stillriledup]

Sorry guys, entries do not make any sense and never have. You can't make up dumb rules just in case something happens. You may as well run all the races as non betting events, then bettors can't possibly get screwed because no one can bet.

It's gambling. Sure, sometimes with uncoupled entries the longer odds horse will win, big deal. These idiots complain but nothing happened, it's a horse race, the longer odds horse won, big deal. If you want to cry after you lose, please, don't bet!

The biggest misnomer is that if the longer priced runner wins its some sort of 'coup' but I look at the coup (if there is one) with the shorter price winning. People don't 'stiff favorites' to cash in on longshots, horsemen who are playing games (the ones who do) are just trying to cash in on the horse they think is more likely to win, Which most times its the shorter priced one.

[castaway01]

Sorry guys, entries do not make any sense and never have. You can't make up dumb rules just in case something happens. You may as well run all the races as non betting events, then bettors can't possibly get screwed because no one can bet.

It's gambling. Sure, sometimes with uncoupled entries the longer odds horse will win, big deal. These idiots complain but nothing happened, it's a horse race, the longer odds horse won, big deal. If you want to cry after you lose, please, don't bet!

There are certain people who feel that every time the horse they didn't figure wins, the race was fixed. Unfortunately they post seemingly thousands of times on the Internet every day.... :rolleyes:

[pandy]

The main reason for the entries in the first place was to protect the public in case the jockeys/trainers colluded, which never made any sense from the start. Just because two horses are coupled doesn't mean that one of the horses can't be used to help its stablemate. If the purse is $500,000, yes, it's possible that one of the horses will be used, say, as a rabbit to try and take out a prime contender in a speed duel. But coupling the two horses doesn't change that possibility.

Besides the fact that entries hurt handle by reducing field size, an even bigger argument against entries is that is is bad for the horseplayer.

Here's an excerpt from a column I wrote for American Turf Monthly last year:

Bettors need to be able to take advantage of each opportunity. And, coupled entries can wipe out an opportunity.

There was a good example at Saratoga this year. In the Travers, which was on August 23, trainer Jimmy Jerkens had two horses, Wicked Strong, who was 5-2, and V. E. Day, who was 19-1. Wicked Strong had the lead turning for home, but V. E. Day narrowed in gamely to upset and pay $41.00, running his dirt track record to 3 for 3. Again, imagine if these horses had been coupled. V. E. Day would have been around 9-5 odds. Let's not forget that quite a few bettors did win a lot of money in this race. The exacta with the two Jerkens horses returned $167.50.

I didn't bet V. E. Day, but I noticed that a few public handicappers picked him to win. V. E. Day was a lightly-raced horse that was improving, and some smart bettors were anxiously awaiting the Travers so they could bet this up and comer at 19-1 odds. Coupling the Jerkens horses in an entry would have wiped out a lot of profit for those bettors, and would have made the race much less exciting. Instead of a juicy longshot upset, the favorite would have won the race.

[Stillriledup]

The main reason for the entries in the first place was to protect the public in case the jockeys/trainers colluded, which never made any sense from the start. Just because two horses are coupled doesn't mean that one of the horses can't be used to help its stablemate. If the purse is $500,000, yes, it's possible that one of the horses will be used, say, as a rabbit to try and take out a prime contender in a speed duel. But coupling the two horses doesn't change that possibility.

Besides the fact that entries hurt handle by reducing field size, an even bigger argument against entries is that is is bad for the horseplayer.

Here's an excerpt from a column I wrote for American Turf Monthly last year:

Bettors need to be able to take advantage of each opportunity. And, coupled entries can wipe out an opportunity.

There was a good example at Saratoga this year. In the Travers, which was on August 23, trainer Jimmy Jerkens had two horses, Wicked Strong, who was 5-2, and V. E. Day, who was 19-1. Wicked Strong had the lead turning for home, but V. E. Day narrowed in gamely to upset and pay $41.00, running his dirt track record to 3 for 3. Again, imagine if these horses had been coupled. V. E. Day would have been around 9-5 odds. Let's not forget that quite a few bettors did win a lot of money in this race. The exacta with the two Jerkens horses returned $167.50.

I didn't bet V. E. Day, but I noticed that a few public handicappers picked him to win. V. E. Day was a lightly-raced horse that was improving, and some smart bettors were anxiously awaiting the Travers so they could bet this up and comer at 19-1 odds. Coupling the Jerkens horses in an entry would have wiped out a lot of profit for those bettors, and would have made the race much less exciting. Instead of a juicy longshot upset, the favorite would have won the race.


Great stuff Bob,

To touch on your uncoupled stablemate rabbit, you're correct that whether coupled or uncoupled that horse will be ridden the same. It's up to the judges to fine or suspend the jock of the rabbit for 'lack of effort' and a ride that's not consistent with giving their mount the best chance. But to my knowledge, no rabbit jock has ever been disciplined for riding his mount in a manner inconsistent with winning, and if they're not fining rabbits why are horses coupled in the first place? To avoid a 'rabbit situation' that racing officials will permit to happen anyway. I agree it makes no sense.

[Stillriledup]

Cmon guys, its 2013.

If one part of an entry is scratched, the other part runs for purse only....even if the horse who is scratched was a horse you hated and you were essentially betting on the other horse.

Or, in the case of Tiz Gianni, you got 3-1 because he was coupled with no hoper Mia Poppy the other day.

California has been uncoupling horses for a long time now, it creates extra betting interests, extra income and doesnt put horseplayers in a position to have to bet on horses they don't want to bet on.

You stay up till 4am "burning the midnight oil" as Harvey loves to say, so what happens when a horse you've been sitting on for weeks shows up coupled with a horse you think stinks? Not fun.

Time to welcome yourselves to 2013.

3 years later, no end in sight for this coupling nonsense.

[pandy]

One of the biggest reasons why racing's popularity is down, they don't do what's needed to improve the product.

[Stillriledup]

One of the biggest reasons why racing's popularity is down, they don't do what's needed to improve the product.

There's zero reason to keep having one less betting interest, it's just leaving money on the table that the game never gets back.

[thespaah]

3 years later, no end in sight for this coupling nonsense.
The rules of coupling have been relaxed to the point where coupled entries are almost non existent.
Why not just go for the gold and eliminate them

[NY BRED]

Pleas explain today's race 8.

Rudy is the trainer,# 8,#9 are both owned by Michael Dubb & Bethlehem


:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[PhantomOnTour]

Pleas explain today's race 8.

Rudy is the trainer,# 8,#9 are both owned by Michael Dubb & Bethlehem


:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
Maybe the coupling rules are different for Stakes races...???

[OTM Al]

Maybe the coupling rules are different for Stakes races...???
Rules have been different for stakes races for some time. Used to be 500K+ Gr 1 were exempt but that was expanded a while back.

[thespaah]

Maybe the coupling rules are different for Stakes races...???
I believe that is correct

[castaway01]

Rules have been different for stakes races for some time. Used to be 500K+ Gr 1 were exempt but that was expanded a while back.

Last July it was lowered to exclude stakes races with purses of $50,000 or more.

Bloodhorse article (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/92901/new-york-coupled-entry-rules-modified)

[EasyGoer89]

one less betting interest in leg one of the pick 5, does coupling make them. Money? There have been studies suggesting larger fields beget larger handle, why leave money on the table?

[johnhannibalsmith]

seven for gigawatt, okay for radio or not. Hamburger?

[cj]

one less betting interest in leg one of the pick 5, does coupling make them. Money? There have been studies suggesting larger fields beget larger handle, why leave money on the table?

Don't start with the bumping your own thread from way back, especially when nothing has changed to warrant it.

[tucker6]

So that is what SRU has morphed into? I didn't think his ego could withstand a ban. :lol:

[sour grapes]

this guy is a curmudgen,always looks on the negative side.dont know why he would even bet with all the evil forces conspiring against him.