No inquiry in the 8th at Belmont?

[cj]

Different rules than Saratoga or something?

[cj]

http://www.nyra.com/belmont/videos/race-replay/BED/2013/20130911/8/headon/

[wiffleball whizz]

Disgrace

[cj]

The New York chart caller is usually very good. Curious to see what he has to say, though the chart is taking a long time to be posted.

[FantasticDan]

Yikes. Not even a jock's objection from :1: Castellano :confused: :ThmbDown:

[cj]

Some would say a potential P6 carryover would be a reason to want the longer price left up. Myself, I just think it was being inept at their job.

[wiffleball whizz]

Would love to know what goes on in the judges booth.......prob more Steve Wilkos and springer then racing.....

This no inquiry now that I've seen it should result in a investigation....and then terminations

Could this be a case of nyra joining the SRU downs concept where winners get paid?

[cj]

OK, I just read the chart comment, what a joke. Anybody that thinks this sharp guy really believes what he wrote is fooling himself.

Cheyenne Nation: "Drifted out slightly in the late stages"

Tiz Gianni: "Got carried out very slightly (very slightly, is that even English?) by the top one in the last eighth"

The fact this chart was posted at least thirty minutes later than usual just looks very fishy. He also doesn't mention the last 50 yards where the winner basically herds the other horse all the way to the wire. It was classic Gallop Racer riding for those that remember the first version of that game.

[wiffleball whizz]

Who did the judges have? Questions must be answered

Vic your a judge is this a disgrace or what

Remember betting ferndale a few weeks ago and inquiries were up every race so at least you guys are watching.....what are these 3 judges doing if there not betting?

[wiffleball whizz]

BUMP!!!!!!!!!!

[Ocala Mike]

Welcome to SRU Downs, where EVERYBODY gets paid if they cross the line first!

[speed]

BUMP!!!!!!!!!!
You bumped a thread 16 minutes after posting in it.
Gotta be a record. :lol:

[the little guy]

Yikes. Not even a jock's objection from :1: Castellano :confused: :ThmbDown:


Javy is the biggest herder in the game. He's not going to claim against another for doing what he does.

[classhandicapper]

IMO the #1 horse clearly had his momentum stopped twice. Since he only lost by a neck, he was almost certainly the best horse. The thing that makes it iffy is whether a brush like that is enough of an infraction to warrant a DQ. I think "yes" because IMO the #1 would have won the race without the bump (however mild). But I could see someone else thinking "no". What I can't see is the stewards not looking at the race and/or the rider not claiming foul. Even the guys at TVG were immediately questioning whether the horse was going to stay. It was that obvious. You didn't even need the head on. Something is amiss. Politics of some sort?

[wiffleball whizz]

You bumped a thread 16 minutes after posting in it.
Gotta be a record. :lol:


Including pick 6s over a million dollars that was railroaded by 3 people.....incidents the whole lane and not even a look....and as a rule I always say NYRA does it right when it comes to the bettors

[speed]

You will see worse throughout the meet. The amount of herding that is being allowed is comical. Would have been surprised if they had made a change based on prior meets. Not to mention it is unsafe for horses and riders.

[the little guy]

Including pick 6s over a million dollars that was railroaded by 3 people.....incidents the whole lane and not even a look....and as a rule I always say NYRA does it right when it comes to the bettors


NYRA employs one of the Stewards. There are three of them.

[classhandicapper]

Javy is the biggest herder in the game. He's not going to claim against another for doing what he does.

That was the kind of thing I was talking about when I used the term "politics". I think we occasionally see that kind of thing when it comes to jockey/trainer relationships also. The stewards were napping though. You had to look at it even if you didn't take the horse down.

[cj]

That was the kind of thing I was talking about when I used the term "politics". I think we occasionally see that kind of thing when it comes to jockey/trainer relationships also. The stewards were napping though.

Napping? What else do they have to do during the day?

I honestly believe somebody talked to the chart guy before it was posted.

[thaskalos]

OK, I just read the chart comment, what a joke. Anybody that thinks this sharp guy really believes what he wrote is fooling himself.

Cheyenne Nation: "Drifted out slightly in the late stages"

Tiz Gianni: "Got carried out very slightly (very slightly, is that even English?) by the top one in the last eighth"

The fact this chart was posted at least thirty minutes later than usual just looks very fishy. He also doesn't mention the last 50 yards where the winner basically herds the other horse all the way to the wire. It was classic Gallop Racer riding for those that remember the first version of that game.

You can read the result charts for the next 50 years...and you will never see "slightly" and "very slightly" used in this context again.

What a joke is right...

[Ocala Mike]

What else do they have to do during the day?



Are they allowed to partake in any adult beverages? Just asking. Maybe they should be checked at the "spitbox" after the races.

[Stillriledup]

There was a race on Sept 8th, Race 1, the leader with Bravo carried out a rival way wide. The interesting thing about this situation was that if the jock on the horse who was herded out would have held his path, the inside horse would have crashed into him....but, since the guy went wide, no inquiry. He got carried out a few lanes on a crucial part of the turn...do the judges expect the jock to stay in his lane and get crashed into in order to get the dq?

Certainly an interesting rule that absolves a rider on a drifting horse if the jock who is next to him just steers out of the way.

[wiffleball whizz]

TLG what were they looking at?

This isn't good

[TheEdge07]

TLG what were they looking at?

This isn't good

Wiff you will never receive a clear explaination..move on..they dont care..

[LAP_520]

I thought there should of been an inquiry also in race 8......then when there was none and no objection, I thought maybe my eyes were playing tricks on me. I did have the 1 and 1A in both the pick 3 and Pick 4....


Looked around at other posts,,,,, some posters had the 5 as a single and some used 3 or 4 horses that race but No #5.


Now with no inquiry, I wonder if New York Stewards took classes from California ... the stewards out there let anything happen short of knocking horses down. Leaving the starting gate.,, first two - three strides not part of the race.... REALLY (?) .. five strides before the wire,,, might as well call that area the finish, because they will not take any action there either.......


I have Seen both incidents happen this season...... Not a happy camper.

[wiffleball whizz]

Envelopes.com

[Stillriledup]

Napping? What else do they have to do during the day?

I honestly believe somebody talked to the chart guy before it was posted.

WAIT. Didnt we get into a discussion about this very thing and i suggested that the chartcallers just skew their comments in relation to what the judges have decided and you said they didnt?

[wiffleball whizz]

Wiff you will never receive a clear explaination..move on..they dont care..


Great point!!!!!!!!

[wiffleball whizz]

But if cj don't post this the events or lack there of in the 8th race get swept under the rug......I was at sleeping so I didn't have a dog in the fight


Also on Facebook which I rarely go on nyra is always fast to point out when horses win big stakes or if somebody is returning to the races so why not adress a issue that neglects 1 million dollars of wagered money

This shit pisses me off

[cj]

WAIT. Didnt we get into a discussion about this very thing and i suggested that the chartcallers just skew their comments in relation to what the judges have decided and you said they didnt?

I said I had seen them disagree, and gave an example.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

Had the 5 horse myself, and thought there'd at least be an inquiry.

Can't complain of course, as I hear that "in the long run", these subjective judgements from the steward's box all even out..... :p

Oh - and let's not forget that :7: Film Shot broke through the gate, fell down, and was reloaded to fade to last. Can't believe he wasn't scratched....

Total fail by the stewards on that race.

[wiffleball whizz]

Had the 5 horse myself, and thought there'd at least be an inquiry.

Can't complain of course, as I hear that "in the long run", these subjective judgements from the steward's box all even out..... :p

Oh - and let's not forget that :7: Film Shot broke through the gate, fell down, and was reloaded to fade to last. Can't believe he wasn't scratched....

Total fail by the stewards on that race.


Sounds like "they" did fine......who "they" is we're still trying to figure out

[cj]

Oh - and let's not forget that :7: Film Shot broke through the gate, fell down, and was reloaded to fade to last. Can't believe he wasn't scratched....



That was pretty crazy too, especially from a circuit that probably leads the nation in vet scratches.

[Tom]

Credibility is lacking.

[the little guy]

I honestly believe somebody talked to the chart guy before it was posted.


You are WAY smarter than this.

[wiffleball whizz]

Credibility is lacking.


60,261 posts I doubt there are any as good as this.......the TVs in the back are priceless......may use this as an avatar pic here and or Facebook profile pic

[cj]

You are WAY smarter than this.

How do you explain the ridiculous chart comments from an otherwise very good chart caller? The delay also seems very fishy. I follow this every day, and charts NEVER take that long to get posted, outside the Kentucky Derby.

[the little guy]

How do you explain the ridiculous chart comments from an otherwise very good chart caller? The delay also seems very fishy. I follow this every day, and charts NEVER take that long to get posted, outside the Kentucky Derby.


They were writing the chart from the grassy knoll when they got interrupted by the Easter Bunny.

I am sure this has happened to you when working on the Will Rogers Downs figs.

Really?

[thaskalos]

They were writing the chart from the grassy knoll when they got interrupted by the Easter Bunny.

I am sure this has happened to you when working on the Will Rogers Downs figs.

Really?

Nothing atypical about the result chart comments...right TLG?

[cj]

They were writing the chart from the grassy knoll when they got interrupted by the Easter Bunny.

I am sure this has happened to you when working on the Will Rogers Downs figs.

Really?

Yeah, I'm sure it is just a crazy coincedence that the chart was way late and a very competent chart caller made a fool of himself with his comments. Seriously, what is "very slightly"?

Will Rogers Downs is running quarterhorses.

[wiffleball whizz]

This thread was a little slow out of the box but is starting to hit that long powerful stride......

We still haven't gotten a excuse as to a late chart call and why the inquiry didn't go up in the I'm assuming feature race of the day....

I'm gonna fb Jason blewitt tmrw and see what he says.....I'm assuming he has a explanation


But in all fairness I totally understand TLG not saying anything regarding this on a dominating horse forum that could get him in trouble .....Just like I wouldn't go on 2+2 talking about any casino I worked at in a negative matter so I can't really say anything to TLG

[PhantomOnTour]

I just want to know wtf the jock on the #3 was doing...trying to stay covered up until the last furlong?
He looks like he's strangling the horse behind the fading pacesetter and letting the #4 and others beat him to the hole. Then he swings outside of them and gets busy after they've all gotten the jump on him.

[thaskalos]

This thread was a little slow out of the box but is starting to hit that long powerful stride......

We still haven't gotten a excuse as to a late chart call and why the inquiry didn't go up in the I'm assuming feature race of the day....

I'm gonna fb Jason blewitt tmrw and see what he says.....I'm assuming he has a explanation


But in all fairness I totally understand TLG not saying anything regarding this on a dominating horse forum that could get him in trouble .....Just like I wouldn't go on 2+2 talking about any casino I worked at in a negative matter so I can't really say anything to TLG

Yes...but is he obligated to defend them even when they are wrong?

[cj]

I just want to know wtf the jock on the #3 was doing...trying to stay covered up until the last furlong?
He looks like he's strangling the horse behind the fading pacesetter and letting the #4 and others beat him to the hole. Then he swings outside of them and gets busy after they've all gotten the jump on him.

That ride was so bad it was comical. But with Prado, it is also predictable.

[cj]

Yes...but is he obligated to defend them even when they are wrong?

TLG did say there should have been an inquiry.

I went too far talking about the chart caller. It just seemed incredible to me the stewards and the chart caller could be so inept on the same race, and that the chart was much later than usual being posted. I should have left it at that. The way things go in this sport, it very well could be some crazy coincidence.

That said, these guys that don't do a good job should have to answer for it. But they never do, not in horse racing, not in any serious way. And there was a LOT of money on the line that depended on the outcome of that race.

[wiffleball whizz]

Yes...but is he obligated to defend them even when they are wrong?


If he is a paid employee by nyra then I guess yes

I gotta give TLG credit for even coming on this thread as nothing good can come out of this for him


But make no mistake about it thaskalos this was a horror show for the stewards and they gotta give a explanation they can't be that blind

[PhantomOnTour]

That ride was so bad it was comical. But with Prado, it is also predictable.
Ridiculous ride.

I am just now watching today's races.
Check the scratches, make the bets, set the DVR, go to work, live the drama when I get home.
I kind of like it like this

[thaskalos]

TLG did say there should have been an inquiry.

I went too far talking about the chart caller. It just seemed incredible to me the stewards and the chart caller could be so inept on the same race, and that the chart was much later than usual being posted. I should have left it at that. The way things go in this sport, it very well could be some crazy coincidence.

That said, these guys that don't do a good job should have to answer for it. But they never do, not in horse racing, not in any serious way. And there was a LOT of money on the line that depended on the outcome of that race.

Not in this thread, he didn't.

In this thread...he came off as being a little touchy.

[wiffleball whizz]

In a side note the Belmont penn national pick 4???????!!!!!!!!!!!!??????!!!
Just saw this on the nyra site and this was the pop up

Why would nyra even associate themselves with this filth?



And like cj said tons of cheese was riding on that non call be the stewards...I don't think we have heard the end of this........this was bad

[thaskalos]

TLG did say there should have been an inquiry.

I went too far talking about the chart caller. It just seemed incredible to me the stewards and the chart caller could be so inept on the same race, and that the chart was much later than usual being posted. I should have left it at that. The way things go in this sport, it very well could be some crazy coincidence.

That said, these guys that don't do a good job should have to answer for it. But they never do, not in horse racing, not in any serious way. And there was a LOT of money on the line that depended on the outcome of that race.

I don't see why you say that you went too far when you talked about the chart caller. Your point was a legitimate one.

It's obvious that the chart caller went out of his way to cover up the stewards mistake. The :5: drifted out "slightly"...and the :1: was carried out "very slightly"?

Come on...

[HuggingTheRail]

where would "ever so slightly" fit into the scale??

[cj]

Not in this thread, he didn't.

In this thread...he came off as being a little touchy.

Twitter.

[magwell]

An inquiry yes.... enough to take winner down no, but I had no action in the race.

[Pensacola Pete]

Short answer: yes, the jockey is expected to hold the horse's path and get run into. That may not make sense, but that's the way a lot of stewards operate. Most panels of stewards won't call an inquiry unless there's obvious contact or endangerment. That's a good thing. Horses drift like that all of the time during races. If they called inquiries for all of them, there'd be a 15 minute inquiry every race. That's why most panels of stewards include a former jockey; somebody who's been in the trenches and knows what's going on there.

#1's jockey isn't going to call an objection because he knew that it wouldn't be upheld and because there's the risk of being disciplined for calling frivolous (in the eyes of the stewards) objections that aren't upheld. The trainer should have called an objection, but it wouldn't have been allowed anyway. As I stated, that kind of drifting goes on constantly, and it's rare that any are upheld.

The connections of #2 are the ones who missed the boat. The winner cut their horse off twice and caused it to spook once. There could very well have been a disqualification for that, although again, there wasn't any contact, and the stewards may well have ruled (probably incorrectly) that the outcome of the race wasn't affected.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

Every example of the steward's making a mistake like this seems to justify, at least in my mind, the case for SRU Down/dog racing rules. Take out the subjectivity!

At a minimum, the stewards should have to explain hold the inquiries/objections in public, like they do in Australia.

As for the "politics" of the riders, trainers, and owners, the purse amounts, etc., influencing the outcome of the inquires (or whether or not one occurs), that's just another reason that supports letting the results stand, and let reviews take place afterwards with the pressure of the next racing looming not a factor.

Plenty of room for changes to improve the current system, IMHO.

FWIW - I think NYRA as a whole does a great job compared to other circuits with the consistency of their rulings, but they did seem to be snoozing in yesterday's 8th. As for the late charts with the questionable comments, perhaps the regular chart caller was taking the day off - but "slightly" was not part of the stretch run. After watching the head on, the :5: should have been taken down, which as it turns out would have cost me my win bet and late double for about a nickel....

[BetHorses!]

Nellie Cashman got taken down and this doesn't get a blink...really really disgraceful!

[TheEdge07]

Credibility is lacking.


Priceless

[burnsy]

Nellie Cashman got taken down and this doesn't get a blink...really really disgraceful!

I had that horse, now that i looked at that (at Belmont). The Nellie Cashman call was a disgrace(at 22-1). People just look at the head on and don't consider the DISTANCE to the wire. The replay of this race this horse was zigging and zagging practically through the entire stretch. The Nellie Cashman race the horse drifted two jumps from the line. They were never going to catch her. They are so inconsistant on the calls, its not even funny. I also noticed they get in these "campaigns" of having calls then all is forgotten and anything goes....i guess it depends on the "mood" of the stewards.

When an inquiry occurs or an incident like this one at Belmont with no call. The stewards should be forced to give a FULL account of the incident. That means what happened, who caused it and the distance from the wire where it occured. I noticed many people just look at the head on without thinking about how far from the finish the horses actually are. This horse started trouble practically through out the stretch drive if i'm seeing it right. Nellie Cashman drifted (never hits the other horse, but SLIGHTLY bumped doesn't count?) out like two to three jumps from the wire. At Saratoga they were looking for ANYTHING like a baskeball ref. plus i think that it hurt that the jock and the connections were from another track. They will never admit it, but the regulars get more sway, don't care what anyone says, its true.

The other thing i've been complaining about for years are the credentials and qualifications of said stewards. It should not be some old guy that gets an appointment through a political favor. You need sharp, younger people with good eye sight and quick judgement.....Ever heard the saying? "that ump needs glasses." Well, there you have it and it can't be trendy either...consistancy is everything in the publics eyes.....You either question everything or you loosen the calls but YOU CAN NOT GO BACK AND FORTH. This is not just NYRA, Stewards should have eye tests, classes in consistancy on rules and be professionally vetted. Being a former this and that around the track is not a DEFINITE credential to become a steward..........sorry.

[classhandicapper]

Just for the record, I think drifting towards the path of an oncoming closer, hoping to slow the horse's momentum down is good race riding and does not deserve an inquiry or DQ. But IMO you have to do it when your own horse is well clear enough to avoid bumping. In this case there WAS a bump that caused the loss of momentum.

[cj]

Just for the record, I think drifting towards the path of an oncoming closer, hoping to slow the horse's momentum down is good race riding and does not deserve an inquiry or DQ. But IMO you have to do it when your own horse is well clear enough to avoid bumping. In this case there WAS a bump that caused the loss of momentum.

Agree. Drifting towards the path and into the path are two different things. This horses also came out again before the wire.

[burnsy]

I agree, but any jockey that doesn't use the drift at times to intimidate the closer....is lying to you. Thats part of the game, if you don't bump someone else, its usually no foul. If you are two or three strides from the line and you drift (slight bump or not)....the horse is costing itself because the straightest (line) path is the shortest distance. In other words the horse just lost half a step a fraction before the finish. When a horse drifts like that 99% of the time they were going to win anyway. This horse yesterday (I'll admit i only saw the replay on here) appears to be causing trouble for many yards not feet. It pretty much appears the running of almost half the field was affected way, way before they are close to finishing. If theres no foul or even QUESTION! for that and this other horse was taken down.....wheteher you bet it or not, theres a problem. Look at both races, the action taken or not taken, theres no debate...its a problem. Case closed......if you think the officiating can't be better. Your lying to yourself too.

[v j stauffer]

I had that horse, now that i looked at that (at Belmont). The Nellie Cashman call was a disgrace(at 22-1). People just look at the head on and don't consider the DISTANCE to the wire. The replay of this race this horse was zigging and zagging practically through the entire stretch. The Nellie Cashman race the horse drifted two jumps from the line. They were never going to catch her. They are so inconsistant on the calls, its not even funny. I also noticed they get in these "campaigns" of having calls then all is forgotten and anything goes....i guess it depends on the "mood" of the stewards.

When an inquiry occurs or an incident like this one at Belmont with no call. The stewards should be forced to give a FULL account of the incident. That means what happened, who caused it and the distance from the wire where it occured. I noticed many people just look at the head on without thinking about how far from the finish the horses actually are. This horse started trouble practically through out the stretch drive if i'm seeing it right. Nellie Cashman drifted (never hits the other horse, but SLIGHTLY bumped doesn't count?) out like two to three jumps from the wire. At Saratoga they were looking for ANYTHING like a baskeball ref. plus i think that it hurt that the jock and the connections were from another track. They will never admit it, but the regulars get more sway, don't care what anyone says, its true.

The other thing i've been complaining about for years are the credentials and qualifications of said stewards. It should not be some old guy that gets an appointment through a political favor. You need sharp, younger people with good eye sight and quick judgement.....Ever heard the saying? "that ump needs glasses." Well, there you have it and it can't be trendy either...consistancy is everything in the publics eyes.....You either question everything or you loosen the calls but YOU CAN NOT GO BACK AND FORTH. This is not just NYRA, Stewards should have eye tests, classes in consistancy on rules and be professionally vetted. Being a former this and that around the track is not a DEFINITE credential to become a steward..........sorry.

http://www.horseracingofficials.com/default.asp?id=3.1

[Stillriledup]

I agree, but any jockey that doesn't use the drift at times to intimidate the closer....is lying to you. Thats part of the game, if you don't bump someone else, its usually no foul. If you are two or three strides from the line and you drift (slight bump or not)....the horse is costing itself because the straightest (line) path is the shortest distance. In other words the horse just lost half a step a fraction before the finish. When a horse drifts like that 99% of the time they were going to win anyway. This horse yesterday (I'll admit i only saw the replay on here) appears to be causing trouble for many yards not feet. It pretty much appears the running of almost half the field was affected way, way before they are close to finishing. If theres no foul or even QUESTION! for that and this other horse was taken down.....wheteher you bet it or not, theres a problem. Look at both races, the action taken or not taken, theres no debate...its a problem. Case closed......if you think the officiating can't be better. Your lying to yourself too.

WAIT, you mean to suggest that people in their 30s or 40s have better eyesight than people in their 50s, 60s and 70s?

Who knew! According to the racing industry, they hire the oldest people they can get their hands on. 30s and 40s need not apply!