Racing rules vs real life laws.

[Stillriledup]

The fascinating thing that i find about horse racing is that if the participants break the rules, they get punished, almost always, "in house". Its no shock that currently, racing has a pretty bad perception problem and i just wonder if local law enforcement or the fed getting involved would help put the cheats on the straight and narrow?

I would think its easier to cheat if you know that you won't actually have to go thru the American judicial system and your "punishments" will essentially be slaps on the wrist and not jail time or an arrest/criminal record or "prosecuting" people who break real life laws/criminal record.

Tim Donaghy, the "rogue ref" went to jail for fixing sporting events....but no trainer, owners or jocks seem to be jailed for race fixing.

Mike Vick went to jail for organizing dog fights, but if a trainer has a half a dozen or more horses die of sudden and mysterious death, there's no punishment, no jail time, no arrest record, no nothing. Business as usual. Don't ask don't tell. Nobody cares. We talk about it for a few minutes on message boards, there is a little fake outrage and then nobody does a thing about it.

Is this why racing isnt as clean as it could be? you see signs in convenience stores sometimes that say "shoplifting prosecute fullest extent law" so you can "get arrested" if you steal a candy bar, but in racing, you can drug a horse, fix a sporting event, and nothing. Just a small suspension, a small fine and precedent seems to indicate that these trainers who get suspensions for "cheating" never lose clients or money, in other words, their reputation doesnt take a hit at all.

Paula Deen can say the N word 20 years ago and her empire gets shot to bits, nobody wants anything to do with her, she loses millions and when people see her on the street, they turn the other way. Baseball cheats the same thing.....A Rod and Braun, guys like this, nobody wants anything to do with them, Braun loses endorsements and whatnut for cheating, his reputation is really tarnished now......but if Ryan Braun was a horse trainer and cheated, he would get a 30 or 60 day suspension, maybe a 7,500 dollar fine, and spend that time sipping pina coladas on Manhattan beach waiting to come back to the same exact clients he had before he was suspended....rarely will a trainer lose a client for breaking the rules.

Can we make the argument that nothing that happens in racing is anything more than breaking "racing rules" and what happens as cheating in the sport is not really breaking any kind of real life law?

Anyone have the answers?

[Delawaretrainer]

I have often thought the same thing when certain trainers are 40% of the claim, consistently win at a high percentage etc. Also, when the guy at Philly never did well, became amazing overnight and when kicked passed the baton to both his brother then his wife. I see this as theft of millions of dollars.

However, in racing, trainers are guilty whether they are responsible or not due to the trainer responsibility rules. If a disgruntled employee very easily gives a horse medication close to a race, the trainer is still guilty. All they have to do is put a pack of Azium or bute powder in the horses breakfast. Over the years, many innocent horseman have been penalized inappropriately (feed and human contamination, false positives, etc.).

In real life however, people have rights and must be proven guilty. You would have to catch them red handed.

I also think it is a gray area now with steroids. When they were "banned" I think in 2009 there were levels set that cold be found in a post race sample. We all thought those levels accounted for natural levels found in the horse. But, now it has bcom clear that many trainers continued using them and just timed the withdrawl to b below these levels. Every once in a while they screw up md a steroid positive pops up, alway a high percentage guy. The races wher they passed the test they benefited from the effects. So......maybe it's not illegal....

[Robert Goren]

I have often thought the same thing when certain trainers are 40% of the claim, consistently win at a high percentage etc. Also, when the guy at Philly never did well, became amazing overnight and when kicked passed the baton to both his brother then his wife. I see this as theft of millions of dollars.

However, in racing, trainers are guilty whether they are responsible or not due to the trainer responsibility rules. If a disgruntled employee very easily gives a horse medication close to a race, the trainer is still guilty. All they have to do is put a pack of Azium or bute powder in the horses breakfast. Over the years, many innocent horseman have been penalized inappropriately (feed and human contamination, false positives, etc.).

In real life however, people have rights and must be proven guilty. You would have to catch them red handed.

I also think it is a gray area now with steroids. When they were "banned" I think in 2009 there were levels set that cold be found in a post race sample. We all thought those levels accounted for natural levels found in the horse. But, now it has bcom clear that many trainers continued using them and just timed the withdrawl to b below these levels. Every once in a while they screw up md a steroid positive pops up, alway a high percentage guy. The races wher they passed the test they benefited from the effects. So......maybe it's not illegal.... That is bullshit. People are sent to death row all the time that were not caught "red handed". And the disgruntled employee argument doesn't work in "real life" either.

[Delawaretrainer]

Robert Goren, you are wrong. This was an explanation I was given by a steward. In real life, you are innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Not sure what country you live in but this is a right afforded to us in the U.S.

I meant IN RACING you would have to catch them red handed. How could you prove that a positive test discovered weeks after the race was actually performed by a trainer? You can't put people in jail if you can't prove they did it. Are you saying that a trainer getting a positive as a result of vet error, disgruntled employee, human contamination, etc. should go to jail for something they didn't do? Of course there would be those that DID do it that would be innocent in a court law because it couldn't be proven.

Also, you see I mentioned vet error above. This does happen. Trainer goes down even if medication report confirms the mistake. Yup, trainer responsibility, horse comes down, trainer pays fine. I have heard of private vets giving banamine instead of bute (different withdrawl period) resulting in a positive. No bute in sample, high banamine, confirmed in stewards medication report. Trainer paid! Another case, vet tech pre loads syringes in the morning with the wrong stuff. All clear liquid, how did the trainer know? Ya,we should send trainers to jail.

[DeltaLover]

Also, you see I mentioned vet error above. This does happen. Trainer goes down even if medication report confirms the mistake. Yup, trainer responsibility, horse comes down, trainer pays fine. I have heard of private vets giving banamine instead of bute (different withdrawl period) resulting in a positive. No bute in sample, high banamine, confirmed in stewards medication report. Trainer paid! Another case, vet tech pre loads syringes in the morning with the wrong stuff. All clear liquid, how did the trainer know? Ya,we should send trainers to jail.

Traines should at least receive strict suspensions with a three strike rule that will take them completely out of the game forever. With this I am referring to a complete ban from any activity related to thoroubreds, from been a breeder to an agent or even working as a clerk.

[Tom]

You cheat, lifetime ban.
Simple.

Too harsh.....don't friggin cheat.

[iceknight]

I was searching for Lasix information sometime back.. and I came across this old article.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?id=3324301

The article basically quotes some World Anti-Doping Agency

"appears that Lasix doesn't solve bleeding or keep horses in training longer. Then what does it do? According to the World Anti-Doping Agency, it masks other drugs. That's why it is on its list of banned drugs, which means athletes competing in the Olympics are not permitted to use it."

Now, I don't know if the author Bill Finley has prior agenda or if he is being objective.. but either way.. the stats he mentions are important.

[Show Me the Wire]

Serve a suspension like Jane Cibelli having a horse treated on race day?

[Stillriledup]

I have often thought the same thing when certain trainers are 40% of the claim, consistently win at a high percentage etc. Also, when the guy at Philly never did well, became amazing overnight and when kicked passed the baton to both his brother then his wife. I see this as theft of millions of dollars.

However, in racing, trainers are guilty whether they are responsible or not due to the trainer responsibility rules. If a disgruntled employee very easily gives a horse medication close to a race, the trainer is still guilty. All they have to do is put a pack of Azium or bute powder in the horses breakfast. Over the years, many innocent horseman have been penalized inappropriately (feed and human contamination, false positives, etc.).

In real life however, people have rights and must be proven guilty. You would have to catch them red handed.

I also think it is a gray area now with steroids. When they were "banned" I think in 2009 there were levels set that cold be found in a post race sample. We all thought those levels accounted for natural levels found in the horse. But, now it has bcom clear that many trainers continued using them and just timed the withdrawl to b below these levels. Every once in a while they screw up md a steroid positive pops up, alway a high percentage guy. The races wher they passed the test they benefited from the effects. So......maybe it's not illegal....

I do see what you're saying, in a court of law, it would be hard to actually prove the trainer was the one who administered the banned substance. Of course, if you have 70 positives, at some point, you can't say that someone sabotaged your sh*t.

What about a scenario like Billy Patin, who was caught "red handed" with a buzzer? they could have prosecuted him criminally, and chose to handle it in house instead.

Guilt or innocence never stopped them from hauling a trainer off in cuffs for race fixing and then letting him prove his innocence in court. If he proved his innocence in court, and used the argument that someone tainted his feed, if he gets off, more power to him, but not after the initial embarrassment, which would be something of a deterrent going forward.

[Delawaretrainer]

Yes there are probably some obvious cases that could easily be prosecuted criminally that they don't. However, wanting to force an innocent trainer to defend himself in court as a "deterrent" is scary to me. The in house process is already stressful enough, mentally and financially. You lose a purse, an owner, etc. you would basically put them out of business guilty or innocent.

I think the press gets a hold of the high profile cases and the public has a skewed perception of reality. Very few samples come up positive. The large majority are for therapeutic drug overages which happen fairly easily with hot weather, low levels and super testing. Many other positives are the result of contamination (purina feed California, scopalamine from hay, etc.). Then every once in a while you have a trainer pushing th envelope and making everyone look bad. The public, especially on the Internet acts like an angry mob. Somebody th other day was freaking out that a trainer could get his hands on a controlled substance like ace, a staple in barn medicine cabinets..

[Stillriledup]

Yes there are probably some obvious cases that could easily be prosecuted criminally that they don't. However, wanting to force an innocent trainer to defend himself in court as a "deterrent" is scary to me. The in house process is already stressful enough, mentally and financially. You lose a purse, an owner, etc. you would basically put them out of business guilty or innocent.

I think the press gets a hold of the high profile cases and the public has a skewed perception of reality. Very few samples come up positive. The large majority are for therapeutic drug overages which happen fairly easily with hot weather, low levels and super testing. Many other positives are the result of contamination (purina feed California, scopalamine from hay, etc.). Then every once in a while you have a trainer pushing th envelope and making everyone look bad. The public, especially on the Internet acts like an angry mob. Somebody th other day was freaking out that a trainer could get his hands on a controlled substance like ace, a staple in barn medicine cabinets..

Yes, bettors are angry mobs for sure, they want someone's head to roll, the bettors are risking real money on these races, they need to feel that the racing establishments are taking integrity as serious as the bettors need it to be taken.

You make good points about trainers getting hauled off in cuffs and forced to defend in court, i'm not talking about an otherwise innocent trainer who has a clean record and then a positive comes up...im talking about the super trainers and the trainers who are the 'usual suspects' who have dozens of positives. And, the beard trainers who have a relative training the stable on paper, when in reality, they're calling all the shots even though they're suspended. That's a serious integrity issue, i'd toss the book at anyone who does paper trainer stuff.

[Robert Goren]

Delawaretrainer, you do realize that unless the sport is cleaned up, there won't be a sport.

[Delawaretrainer]

Robert, I am all for cleaning up the sport but not prosecuting innocent people. I wold love to see cheaters put in jail, I agree it's race fixing. However, I have seen people get positives where thy didn't administer the drug. Some rashes of positives were eventually discovered to be contamination. One drug manufacturer didnt clean a tank properly when changing medications. It is a miracle the source was discovered. Blood gas machines give false positives all the time.,

Drug rules are extremely strict right now and are getting more strict. Machines can pick up infinitesimal amounts of drugs humans use that wouldn't effect a horse. Trainers even get positives for that. I have friends that have gotten positives for cocaine and caffeine. Nobody would knowingly give these to a horse, they are easily tested. It's a mystery. Do they deserve to go to jail?

The answer is out of competition testing. Instead of drilling down on tiny concentrations of therapeutic medications in non performance enhancing amounts, go after the blood doping agents, steroids, etc. that can only be detected between races. Remember, lance Armstrong passed all his tests post competition. The out of competition testing did him in.

Even if they do this, they would have to account for horses moving barns, etc.

[Stillriledup]

Robert, I am all for cleaning up the sport but not prosecuting innocent people. I wold love to see cheaters put in jail, I agree it's race fixing. However, I have seen people get positives where thy didn't administer the drug. Some rashes of positives were eventually discovered to be contamination. One drug manufacturer didnt clean a tank properly when changing medications. It is a miracle the source was discovered. Blood gas machines give false positives all the time.,

Drug rules are extremely strict right now and are getting more strict. Machines can pick up infinitesimal amounts of drugs humans use that wouldn't effect a horse. Trainers even get positives for that. I have friends that have gotten positives for cocaine and caffeine. Nobody would knowingly give these to a horse, they are easily tested. It's a mystery. Do they deserve to go to jail?

The answer is out of competition testing. Instead of drilling down on tiny concentrations of therapeutic medications in non performance enhancing amounts, go after the blood doping agents, steroids, etc. that can only be detected between races. Remember, lance Armstrong passed all his tests post competition. The out of competition testing did him in.

Even if they do this, they would have to account for horses moving barns, etc.

While accidental positives are part of the game, there is a huge difference between the game's biggest cheats and the guys who "accidentally cheat".

Nobody is suggesting an otherwise clean trainer, with one accidental positive and an otherwise clean record, go to jail. Its the guys and gals with dozens of violations who need to be prosecuted.

As far as drug tests go, there are other ways to sniff out cheating, you can look at massive and overnight form reversals as well as betting patterns. I've never seen an article or report that a trainer, jock or owner got caught betting "inappropriately".

Also, if trainers knew they could be prosecuted in a court of law for cheating, you can bet your bottom dollar that most all trainers would have surveillance cameras everywhere......that way, if their defense is that the horse was tampered with, they can show the tape of someone tampering and get themselves off. But, if they DO have surveillance and can't produce a tape showing that an unknown assailant "got to" the horse, than its off to the big house for them.

[Cannon shell]

No laws are broken in the vast majority of violations and if they are they generally carry pretty soft penalty (an example is possession of a drug not FDA approved). The tampering with a sporting event won't fly and would be challenged by the sports leagues whose players would most likely also fall under this umbrella. Yeah I know about ARod but do you think Denver wants to see Von Miller behind bars? A horse that finishes last and is called on for testing can come up positive just as the winner does. Are you going to put a guy in jail for finishing last?

All one has to do is look at some of the cases that have been adjudicated in the court system to see the folly of believing that is the answer to your wishes. Remember poppyseed bagels and scolamaine? The lawyers tie it up forever and eventually the state loses interest when they start incurring large legal fees and generally settles or loses.

Right now it is far easier to rule on these cases using the current system than the legal system where one simply needs to find a sympathetic judge, completely ignorant of all things horseracing, who believes a bullshit story that brings about plausible deniability.

The levels that are tested for arent at enhancing levels but simply detection. A good lawyer would get cases dismissed just by bringing up this point. When they put a credible vet up on the stand and he testifies that the substance in question has no measurable effect at the mere detection level the prosecution would probably have a hard time winning especially if there were harsh penalties.

[Cannon shell]

While accidental positives are part of the game, there is a huge difference between the game's biggest cheats and the guys who "accidentally cheat".

Nobody is suggesting an otherwise clean trainer, with one accidental positive and an otherwise clean record, go to jail. Its the guys and gals with dozens of violations who need to be prosecuted.

As far as drug tests go, there are other ways to sniff out cheating, you can look at massive and overnight form reversals as well as betting patterns. I've never seen an article or report that a trainer, jock or owner got caught betting "inappropriately".

Also, if trainers knew they could be prosecuted in a court of law for cheating, you can bet your bottom dollar that most all trainers would have surveillance cameras everywhere......that way, if their defense is that the horse was tampered with, they can show the tape of someone tampering and get themselves off. But, if they DO have surveillance and can't produce a tape showing that an unknown assailant "got to" the horse, than its off to the big house for them.

Yeah what would prevent me from having a dummy tape with fuzzy views of the "intruders" on hand in case of a positive?

Not to mention how exactly do you positively ID most horses in a surveillance camera? On those videos most horses look pretty much like plain brown horses. Not to mention that the legal system wouldn't be able to treat people at Suffolk and Belmont differently and the massive cash layout for a viable surveillance system would be out of reach for 95% of trainers in the US.

[Cannon shell]

The biggest problem with this entire issue is that you think you know who is cheating using numerical evidence like win percentages and speed figure aberrations. In many cases you might be right. But the legal system isn't going to view this evidence as damning and the current amount of testing and research is just not sufficient to keep up with the illicit advances. The thing I stress time and time again is that the potentially guilty parties are not criminal masterminds and the athletes unlike humans are in the same location 23 hours a day. Surveillance works but like most everything these days is expensive. Rather than waste money trying to use the legal system commissions would be far better served simply looking for the individuals that are actually giving the substances like O Neill's assistant at Del Mar. A guy caught red handed has few ways out.

[rastajenk]

I can't ever imagine that a series of perp walks from tracks to jails can possibly be good for the game. It would simply reinforce all the negative notions that casual or uninformed observers might have, and it wouldn't affect your wagering experience one iota.

[Delawaretrainer]

Also, under the current system, cameras don't do the trainers any good. It wouldn't matter if an intruder did it. Horse is dq'd, purse is lost, violation is on record. The only possibility would be a fine reduction due to mitigating circumstances. Trainer responsibility rule is very powerful and it makes the commissions job easy. There is no determining what is right or wrong. Trainer is responsible, period.

Cameras would be useful for trainers peace of mind and for detective work to find out what is going on. Or, if you are a Trainer under the microscope at risk for bigger penalties like Rodriquez, you have to have them. But they are not getting the average guy off the hook.

[Stillriledup]

Yeah what would prevent me from having a dummy tape with fuzzy views of the "intruders" on hand in case of a positive?

Not to mention how exactly do you positively ID most horses in a surveillance camera? On those videos most horses look pretty much like plain brown horses. Not to mention that the legal system wouldn't be able to treat people at Suffolk and Belmont differently and the massive cash layout for a viable surveillance system would be out of reach for 95% of trainers in the US.

Im just suggesting a trainer would want to, on his own and with his own expense, to put up cameras...he's not going to sabotage his own camera, its there to protect HIM.

[Stillriledup]

The biggest problem with this entire issue is that you think you know who is cheating using numerical evidence like win percentages and speed figure aberrations. In many cases you might be right. But the legal system isn't going to view this evidence as damning and the current amount of testing and research is just not sufficient to keep up with the illicit advances. The thing I stress time and time again is that the potentially guilty parties are not criminal masterminds and the athletes unlike humans are in the same location 23 hours a day. Surveillance works but like most everything these days is expensive. Rather than waste money trying to use the legal system commissions would be far better served simply looking for the individuals that are actually giving the substances like O Neill's assistant at Del Mar. A guy caught red handed has few ways out.

I think it comes down to guys know what they can get away with, they know the punishment for the crime and some of these people, just "take a shot" the worst that can happen is you get caught, get some sort of fine/suspension, but most times, you don't have to give the purse money back, you certainly don't have to give the betting money that you won back and you have really no chance of losing a client AND, you get time time for R and R, you know the whole Manhattan Beach/Pina Colada situation.

[thespaah]

The fascinating thing that i find about horse racing is that if the participants break the rules, they get punished, almost always, "in house". Its no shock that currently, racing has a pretty bad perception problem and i just wonder if local law enforcement or the fed getting involved would help put the cheats on the straight and narrow?

I would think its easier to cheat if you know that you won't actually have to go thru the American judicial system and your "punishments" will essentially be slaps on the wrist and not jail time or an arrest/criminal record or "prosecuting" people who break real life laws/criminal record.

Tim Donaghy, the "rogue ref" went to jail for fixing sporting events....but no trainer, owners or jocks seem to be jailed for race fixing.

Mike Vick went to jail for organizing dog fights, but if a trainer has a half a dozen or more horses die of sudden and mysterious death, there's no punishment, no jail time, no arrest record, no nothing. Business as usual. Don't ask don't tell. Nobody cares. We talk about it for a few minutes on message boards, there is a little fake outrage and then nobody does a thing about it.

Is this why racing isnt as clean as it could be? you see signs in convenience stores sometimes that say "shoplifting prosecute fullest extent law" so you can "get arrested" if you steal a candy bar, but in racing, you can drug a horse, fix a sporting event, and nothing. Just a small suspension, a small fine and precedent seems to indicate that these trainers who get suspensions for "cheating" never lose clients or money, in other words, their reputation doesnt take a hit at all.

Paula Deen can say the N word 20 years ago and her empire gets shot to bits, nobody wants anything to do with her, she loses millions and when people see her on the street, they turn the other way. Baseball cheats the same thing.....A Rod and Braun, guys like this, nobody wants anything to do with them, Braun loses endorsements and whatnut for cheating, his reputation is really tarnished now......but if Ryan Braun was a horse trainer and cheated, he would get a 30 or 60 day suspension, maybe a 7,500 dollar fine, and spend that time sipping pina coladas on Manhattan beach waiting to come back to the same exact clients he had before he was suspended....rarely will a trainer lose a client for breaking the rules.

Can we make the argument that nothing that happens in racing is anything more than breaking "racing rules" and what happens as cheating in the sport is not really breaking any kind of real life law?

Anyone have the answers?
I can sum it up like this...Violations of racing rules are subject to civil rather than criminal sanctions.
Should those most egregious violations be criminalized? Don't know.
That's a job for each State legislature.
Should there be harsh penalties for breach of the rules? Absolutely.
Punish the druggers and the cheats. Make it stick. Run the bastards out of the business.

[Stillriledup]

I can sum it up like this...Violations of racing rules are subject to civil rather than criminal sanctions.
Should those most egregious violations be criminalized? Don't know.
That's a job for each State legislature.
Should there be harsh penalties for breach of the rules? Absolutely.
Punish the druggers and the cheats. Make it stick. Run the bastards out of the business.

Good post spa.

I think that they view different "Degrees" of race fixing and a trainer sticking a banned substance in a horse to gain an edge is different (in their mind) from a completely organized "plan" where betting and verbal discussions are taking place.

[thespaah]

I was searching for Lasix information sometime back.. and I came across this old article.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?id=3324301

The article basically quotes some World Anti-Doping Agency

"appears that Lasix doesn't solve bleeding or keep horses in training longer. Then what does it do? According to the World Anti-Doping Agency, it masks other drugs. That's why it is on its list of banned drugs, which means athletes competing in the Olympics are not permitted to use it."

Now, I don't know if the author Bill Finley has prior agenda or if he is being objective.. but either way.. the stats he mentions are important.
Lasix is a diuretic....That was THE reason why NYRA was the last holdout on banning it as a race day Med. The concern was and still is that because Lasix causes the horse to eliminate fluids, other substances, perhaps banned or those in violation of race day rules, could be eliminated from the body. Also Furosemide is know to 'mask' the existence of other substances( including drugs) during the post race urine test.
I never thought much of Lasix until I did a little research on the drugs effects.
I would say to NYRA, 'ban it'...But NYRA can't. Connections would run to other jurisdictions and seek out those slots inflated purses and lax drug rules.

[Delawaretrainer]

Actually due to the fact that lasix is given several hours out, and the way they now test plasma, the masking effect is not what it was. Also, lasix has no chance of covering things up with the new technology in testing.

Also, to someone else's post, in many jurisdictions like pa you always lose the purse. Depends on the state.

[Cannon shell]

I can sum it up like this...Violations of racing rules are subject to civil rather than criminal sanctions.
Should those most egregious violations be criminalized? Don't know.
That's a job for each State legislature.
Should there be harsh penalties for breach of the rules? Absolutely.
Punish the druggers and the cheats. Make it stick. Run the bastards out of the business.
Harsher penalties don't solve anything unless you are penalizing those who are truly illegally enhancing performances.

[Cannon shell]

Lasix is a diuretic....That was THE reason why NYRA was the last holdout on banning it as a race day Med. The concern was and still is that because Lasix causes the horse to eliminate fluids, other substances, perhaps banned or those in violation of race day rules, could be eliminated from the body. Also Furosemide is know to 'mask' the existence of other substances( including drugs) during the post race urine test.
I never thought much of Lasix until I did a little research on the drugs effects.
I would say to NYRA, 'ban it'...But NYRA can't. Connections would run to other jurisdictions and seek out those slots inflated purses and lax drug rules.
Lasix when given at 4 hours prior to race like most jurisdictions do now does not "mask" anything especially considering how exact testing is now. This is all outdated information. Don't forget that a positive test in humans is generally called at much higher allowable levels than in horses.

There is no need to mask something that they aren't testing for.

[thespaah]

Harsher penalties don't solve anything unless you are penalizing those who are truly illegally enhancing performances.
It would be the intent to punish those very people. The guilty.
All of them.
I refuse to accept 'there is nothing that can be done"...
Or. "this is the way it's always been done."...
NO!
It's time for a major crackdown. Get the crooks out of the game. Ban them for life.

[thespaah]

Lasix when given at 4 hours prior to race like most jurisdictions do now does not "mask" anything especially considering how exact testing is now. This is all outdated information. Don't forget that a positive test in humans is generally called at much higher allowable levels than in horses.

There is no need to mask something that they aren't testing for.
Well that's an improvement.
Now, save for bleeders, why allow Lasix then?

[Cannon shell]

It would be the intent to punish those very people. The guilty.
All of them.
I refuse to accept 'there is nothing that can be done"...
Or. "this is the way it's always been done."...
NO!
It's time for a major crackdown. Get the crooks out of the game. Ban them for life.
Who are the crooks? How can you tell definitively who is a crook and who is lucky and who is just unfortunate?

[Cannon shell]

Well that's an improvement.
Now, save for bleeders, why allow Lasix then?
Why not?

[thaskalos]

Who are the crooks? How can you tell definitively who is a crook and who is lucky and who is just unfortunate?
Cannon shell...may I ask a serious question please?

What is the general consensus among the horsemen when a relatively new face shows up on the grounds, and starts winning with 47% of his new acquisitions over a span of...let's say, 127 starters?

I know what the public thinks in a case like this...but I am wondering if the horsemen have a differing opinion...given the fact that they are more knowledgeable when it comes to assessing "luck and misfortune", as it applies to the performances of these horses.

[Show Me the Wire]

Serious answer. They all wonder what he is using.

[thaskalos]

Serious answer. They all wonder what he is using.

Yes...but do they strongly suspect that he might be doing something ILLEGAL...even if nothing like that has been "proven" yet?

[Cannon shell]

Cannon shell...may I ask a serious question please?

What is the general consensus among the horsemen when a relatively new face shows up on the grounds, and starts winning with 47% of his new acquisitions over a span of...let's say, 127 starters?

I know what the public thinks in a case like this...but I am wondering if the horsemen have a differing opinion...given the fact that they are more knowledgeable when it comes to assessing "luck and misfortune", as it applies to the performances of these horses.
They probably think worse of them than you guys do. Not only are they beating you in races and taking money out of your pocket but soon you'll see new horses filing out of other trainers barns into the geniuses barn. We have to look at them every day knowing they aren't legit.

Thing is that these guys rarely get caught using what is allowing them to win 47%. It is either something innocuous or they dont get any positives at all.

Personally I believe it is up to the track to police these guys via stall allotment because these outfits almost always lead to smaller fields and smaller handle but most track management is too paralyzed or stupid to realize these guys aren't legit or good for their racing program.

[Cannon shell]

Yes...but do they strongly suspect that he might be doing something ILLEGAL...even if nothing like that has been "proven" yet?
Of course.

[Show Me the Wire]

Yes...but do they strongly suspect that he might be doing something ILLEGAL...even if nothing like that has been "proven" yet?

I would say the ones without their heads up their behinds would strongly suspect a banned activity. Illegal is probably not the correct word, banned is.

[Delawaretrainer]

As a trainer, I get pissed when one of these guys comes out of the woodwork. Especially when they claim one of your horses and improves them 15 lengths. It is like stealing money from you. You can't claim them back because you are afraid whatever they are giving them is going to cause them to crash when you get them back. Some horses lose hair, widdle down to nothing or run horrible when these drugs are withdrawn.

So when you see me defend trainers with positives, don't think I accept cheating. My point is that the current system is not catching these guys! Either they don't have a test for it or it won't show up post race because it is already eliminated. Look at al zarooni who was caught with steroids in England that are eliminated from the system in like 3 days. You think u.s. trainers cant get it? So please, give these guys a break when they get a bute overage, use lasix or give their horse electrolytes before a race.

P.s. there are new uniform medication guidelines and penalties coming out in many states. There will be a point system for multiple violators with extra punishment like a drivers license. Sounds great but again, some of the biggest cheaters don't have positives.

[Stillriledup]

As a trainer, I get pissed when one of these guys comes out of the woodwork. Especially when they claim one of your horses and improves them 15 lengths. It is like stealing money from you. You can't claim them back because you are afraid whatever they are giving them is going to cause them to crash when you get them back. Some horses lose hair, widdle down to nothing or run horrible when these drugs are withdrawn.

So when you see me defend trainers with positives, don't think I accept cheating. My point is that the current system is not catching these guys! Either they don't have a test for it or it won't show up post race because it is already eliminated. Look at al zarooni who was caught with steroids in England that are eliminated from the system in like 3 days. You think u.s. trainers cant get it? So please, give these guys a break when they get a bute overage, use lasix or give their horse electrolytes before a race.

P.s. there are new uniform medication guidelines and penalties coming out in many states. There will be a point system for multiple violators with extra punishment like a drivers license. Sounds great but again, some of the biggest cheaters don't have positives.

DT, i have a question if you don't mind.

Do horses get tested on days' they're not racing or working? I'm assuming no and the reason i ask is this. Can't a trainer load up a horse with steroids the day or 2 after his most recent race for "recovery" if he knows that said horse won't be racing for at least long enough so that the steroids don't show up in the tests on raceday?

[Delawaretrainer]

Yes, but it depends on the steroid, some stay in the body longer that others. Every once in a while a positive will pop up when a mistake is made. I think Lake got some this year. Vazquez got some last year and has 3-4 more coming soon.
But som of us trainers thought it was illegal and stopped using them in 2009 or never started. I'm not even sure it's illegal now if it isn't over the level in a post race test.

In Delaware the only testing between races they do is for epo. They may randomly test a few barns a year. I have not heard of anywhere else doing out of competition testing except ny. That might be why Guerrero slowed down there and set up his wife in Philly.

So, normally they just test first, maybe second and a couple of randoms a day after the race. Sometimes they pull blood right before the race when you are bridling them for blood gas testing.

[thespaah]

Who are the crooks? How can you tell definitively who is a crook and who is lucky and who is just unfortunate?
Look, a little common sense here. If the same guys keep getting positives and the same stuff is in their samples, they are crooks. Get these guys out of the business.
Unfortunate would be one or two false positives.
However, if the alleged false positive is the same thing more than once, then there is another issue.
So, more common sense here.
Lets say a trainer has a positive. The officials accept his explanation of a contaminated med.
Next time there is a positive on the barn with the same banned substance, I have to raise a red flag. Time to make an example of the guy because once I can understand. Twice?...You have to be punished. Third time...We wish you well on your future endeavors. Outside of horse racing.

[thespaah]

Why not?
If a med is not needed it should not be used.
On every FDA registered product label there is a warning.
It says something to the effect " "It is a violation of federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling."
So, if Lasix used on horses for the express purpose of controlling bleeding, then if a horse is not on a bleeder's list, there is no reason to administer Lasix.
And if it is, the horse cannot race on Lasix.

[Stillriledup]

Look, a little common sense here. If the same guys keep getting positives and the same stuff is in their samples, they are crooks. Get these guys out of the business.
Unfortunate would be one or two false positives.
However, if the alleged false positive is the same thing more than once, then there is another issue.
So, more common sense here.
Lets say a trainer has a positive. The officials accept his explanation of a contaminated med.
Next time there is a positive on the barn with the same banned substance, I have to raise a red flag. Time to make an example of the guy because once I can understand. Twice?...You have to be punished. Third time...We wish you well on your future endeavors. Outside of horse racing.

Exactly. The "excuses" only fly if you otherwise have a stellar record. If you are one of the "usual suspects" you're a criminal and should be prosecuted as such.

[chadk66]

they allow lasix because it's the humane thing to do. lasix doesn't enhance performance. it only allows a horse to run to his god given ability. nothing more.

[chadk66]

Serious answer. They all wonder what he is using.as a trainer I would be saying "what is he using"

[chadk66]

If a med is not needed it should not be used.
On every FDA registered product label there is a warning.
It says something to the effect " "It is a violation of federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling."
So, if Lasix used on horses for the express purpose of controlling bleeding, then if a horse is not on a bleeder's list, there is no reason to administer Lasix.
And if it is, the horse cannot race on Lasix.that's the way it was years ago. but the problem with that is that each state has their own rules. some states required the horse to have actually been witnessed bleeding from the nostrils before lasix was allowed. some states allowed endoscopic exams witnessed by the state vet before lasix was allowed. some states just let you use lasix at will. so if you were training in a state that just allowed lasix at will, and you had a real bleeder, you weren't allowed to race with lasix in one of those other states unless you met their criteria. which meant you had to waste a race and put your horse through the bleeding again to meet their restrictions. that's inhumane. so the lasix rules have been relaxed, mostly due to the fact that it doesn't mask other drugs now because of the advanced testing.

[thespaah]

they allow lasix because it's the humane thing to do. lasix doesn't enhance performance. it only allows a horse to run to his god given ability. nothing more.
OK, What makes you say that?
It's not as though horses have been running on the stuff forever.
If it's not permitted, then the playing field is still level, correct?

[chadk66]

OK, What makes you say that?
It's not as though horses have been running on the stuff forever.
If it's not permitted, then the playing field is still level, correct?horses have been running on it for about as long as lasix has been available. the playing field isn't level if you outlaw it. the sheer numbers of bleeders is unbelievable. so if you take it away you don't allow that percentage of horses to run to their ability. in fact you can cause harm to them mentally if not physically. If you eliminate the horses that bleed because you don't want them using lasix then you will no longer have a sport because you won't fill any races. it's that big of a percentage. we can go on for days about the reasons horses bleed but it doesn't matter. they do and nobody is going to correct the causes. it's just not going to happen. some you could never correct the causes. it just happens. by permitting the use of it you actually level the playing field for the horses and mostly for the betting public. mostly because the horses running on lasix run much more consistently than without it. without it you not only are betting on all the other uncontrollables but your also betting on whether or not that horse will bleed on that day. that's one you'll never win against.

[thespaah]

that's the way it was years ago. but the problem with that is that each state has their own rules. some states required the horse to have actually been witnessed bleeding from the nostrils before lasix was allowed. some states allowed endoscopic exams witnessed by the state vet before lasix was allowed. some states just let you use lasix at will. so if you were training in a state that just allowed lasix at will, and you had a real bleeder, you weren't allowed to race with lasix in one of those other states unless you met their criteria. which meant you had to waste a race and put your horse through the bleeding again to meet their restrictions. that's inhumane. so the lasix rules have been relaxed, mostly due to the fact that it doesn't mask other drugs now because of the advanced testing.
That's fine.
This goes right to the point I have been harping on for years. That is some kind of standardized rule schedule that applies to every racing jurisdiction.
Yes, that is a long shot.
Something HAS to be done.
The 'way it's always been done' is no longer working.
If anyone thinks the system is fine the way it is now, has their head in the sand or is benefitting from it.

[thespaah]

horses have been running on it for about as long as lasix has been available. the playing field isn't level if you outlaw it. the sheer numbers of bleeders is unbelievable. so if you take it away you don't allow that percentage of horses to run to their ability. in fact you can cause harm to them mentally if not physically. If you eliminate the horses that bleed because you don't want them using lasix then you will no longer have a sport because you won't fill any races. it's that big of a percentage. we can go on for days about the reasons horses bleed but it doesn't matter. they do and nobody is going to correct the causes. it's just not going to happen. some you could never correct the causes. it just happens. by permitting the use of it you actually level the playing field for the horses and mostly for the betting public. mostly because the horses running on lasix run much more consistently than without it. without it you not only are betting on all the other uncontrollables but your also betting on whether or not that horse will bleed on that day. that's one you'll never win against.
Ok.. So how then does Europe get be with no race day meds?

[Cannon shell]

Look, a little common sense here. If the same guys keep getting positives and the same stuff is in their samples, they are crooks. Get these guys out of the business.
Unfortunate would be one or two false positives.
However, if the alleged false positive is the same thing more than once, then there is another issue.
So, more common sense here.
Lets say a trainer has a positive. The officials accept his explanation of a contaminated med.
Next time there is a positive on the barn with the same banned substance, I have to raise a red flag. Time to make an example of the guy because once I can understand. Twice?...You have to be punished. Third time...We wish you well on your future endeavors. Outside of horse racing.
Since when does our legal system use common sense as a standard?

[Cannon shell]

If a med is not needed it should not be used.
On every FDA registered product label there is a warning.
It says something to the effect " "It is a violation of federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling."
So, if Lasix used on horses for the express purpose of controlling bleeding, then if a horse is not on a bleeder's list, there is no reason to administer Lasix.
And if it is, the horse cannot race on Lasix.
How do you know when they are gonna bleed? Plus it isn't hard to get on a bleeding list.

[Cannon shell]

Exactly. The "excuses" only fly if you otherwise have a stellar record. If you are one of the "usual suspects" you're a criminal and should be prosecuted as such.
Again how would our legal system view this line of reasoning especially considering that the huge % of positive tests aren't for illicit or banned substances. A banamine positive isn't going to be viewed as breaking a law regardless of how many a person incurs. What most people seem to forget is that any ruling that is made against a trainer has to be able to stand up to a legal challenge.

[chadk66]

Ok.. So how then does Europe get be with no race day meds?they're probably using other drugs that aren't being tested for. no different than here. but I might also add they train their horses much differently. and you would never get trainers over here to train like that. that's one of my biggest points. and I'd also bet they don't race nearly as many races per year as we do here in the states. so they don't need as many horses to do it.

[Delawaretrainer]

To those that think multiple violations for the same thing=more guilty it can actually be the opposite. Many times there is something going on. Sometimes they change the testing procedures and horseman follow guidelines and get a bunch of positives for the same stuff. Sometimes many horseman at the same time get positives for the same stuff. In fact, in these cases the trainer is considered more credible and it helps people figure out what happened. In fact one time a very serious drug with a stiff penalty was found in many horses. Some trainers with a few. Looked like a lot of careers were over until a scientist explained the drug wasn't administered and was instead a metabolite of a dewormer. So, you can see how assuming things can be dangerous.

Also, not all 30+% trainers are cheaters. If you watch their patterns, sometimes it is depth of stock and a willingness to run horses cheap. For example, if you have a supply of horses coming from ny or Florida to run at penn national you are likely to do well.

[thespaah]

Since when does our legal system use common sense as a standard?
That's immaterial.
Some time some one has to break the barriers of "the way it is".
I find it incredible that some people would so easily surrender to the status quo and not even try to make a difference. As if to say, "we surrender. It's someone else's problem"...I don't buy that.

[rastajenk]

I'm much more wary of prosecutorial overreach than whether a trainer is a few picograms over an arbitrarily decided upon threshold. It's not about whether or not to challenge the status quo. To me it's more about unintended consequences.

[thespaah]

they're probably using other drugs that aren't being tested for. no different than here. but I might also add they train their horses much differently. and you would never get trainers over here to train like that. that's one of my biggest points. and I'd also bet they don't race nearly as many races per year as we do here in the states. so they don't need as many horses to do it.
Ok.... But you do not know for sure. You are guessing, yes?
Train like what? What do Euro trainers do that is so wrong that no American trainer would use their methods?
From my understanding, European trainers gallop their horses over long distances over uneven ground. Across the Pond the 3f breeze is almost unheard of.
Ok, fine. Is it wrong to use different methods? And for that matter what do training methods have to do with use of medication?
I looked at some British PP's today and it appears their horses do not race any less frequently than here.
Here a link to today's card at Bath in the UK.....http://www.racingpost.com/horses2/cards/meeting_of_cards.sd?r_date=2013-09-04&crs_id=5

[Show Me the Wire]

Ok.... But you do not know for sure. You are guessing, yes?

More than a guess see Mahmood Al Zarooni. You can be sure he was not the only trainer bending medication rules.

BTW you remember snail venom? That originated outside of America, see Biacone.

[Cannon shell]

That's immaterial.
Some time some one has to break the barriers of "the way it is".
I find it incredible that some people would so easily surrender to the status quo and not even try to make a difference. As if to say, "we surrender. It's someone else's problem"...I don't buy that.
Of course it is not immaterial. Handing out suspensions that will be overturned by the courts is counter productive. Pretending that anyone who points out the obvious barriers to proposed changes to the system is for the status quo is silly. It just means that they are cognizant of the reasoning why certain proposed ideas wont work.

[Cannon shell]

Ok.... But you do not know for sure. You are guessing, yes?
Train like what? What do Euro trainers do that is so wrong that no American trainer would use their methods?
From my understanding, European trainers gallop their horses over long distances over uneven ground. Across the Pond the 3f breeze is almost unheard of.
Ok, fine. Is it wrong to use different methods? And for that matter what do training methods have to do with use of medication?
I looked at some British PP's today and it appears their horses do not race any less frequently than here.
Here a link to today's card at Bath in the UK.....http://www.racingpost.com/horses2/cards/meeting_of_cards.sd?r_date=2013-09-04&crs_id=5
European trainers train for European races. American trainers train for American races. Why is it hard to understand that there are huge differences?

[Stillriledup]

Are we, as a society, getting "desensitized" to cheating? Unless its just me, i don't remember hearing about SO many tragic situations day in a day out on the national news, people are doing much worse things that sticking a chemical into a racehorse that we might be tempted to look at drug overages and mysteriously dying horses as "no big deal"?

Do you feel desensitized to REAL LIFE bad behavior that a "little cheating" in horse racing isnt even on your radar as a real and serious punishable offense?

[chadk66]

That's fine.
This goes right to the point I have been harping on for years. That is some kind of standardized rule schedule that applies to every racing jurisdiction.
Yes, that is a long shot.
Something HAS to be done.
The 'way it's always been done' is no longer working.
If anyone thinks the system is fine the way it is now, has their head in the sand or is benefitting from it.I 100% agree there needs to be a national medication program. But I think it'll be a real problem unless you can get the states to do this voluntarily because states rights are an issue. They would all have to agree with what drugs and how much. For me personally, bute and lasix. the amount could be argued for days.

[chadk66]

Ok.... But you do not know for sure. You are guessing, yes?
Train like what? What do Euro trainers do that is so wrong that no American trainer would use their methods?
From my understanding, European trainers gallop their horses over long distances over uneven ground. Across the Pond the 3f breeze is almost unheard of.
Ok, fine. Is it wrong to use different methods? And for that matter what do training methods have to do with use of medication?
I looked at some British PP's today and it appears their horses do not race any less frequently than here.
Here a link to today's card at Bath in the UK.....http://www.racingpost.com/horses2/cards/meeting_of_cards.sd?r_date=2013-09-04&crs_id=5europeans train their horses the way americans should be training their horses. europeans track their horses pretty much daily and put them through longer sessions and more reps. often times walking very long distances to get to the training facility. it's a completely different theory on training and one that I molded into my training regimen as much as possible. As far as the euro's and the drug thing yes, it is merely speculation on my part. that's all you can do. however, they busted the big boy and his trainer this spring. so you can be assured it's happening over there, to what extent is unknown.

[thespaah]

More than a guess see Mahmood Al Zarooni. You can be sure he was not the only trainer bending medication rules.

BTW you remember snail venom? That originated outside of America, see Biacone.
I am not implying there are no trainers breaking the rules.
My point is....just a minute...Is it your conclusion that the majority of barns in Europe are doping their horses?

[chadk66]

I am not implying there are no trainers breaking the rules.
My point is....just a minute...Is it your conclusion that the majority of barns in Europe are doping their horses?I don't think he's making any claims that the majority of any barns, european or anywhere are doping horses. But there is some going on everywhere.

[thespaah]

Of course it is not immaterial. Handing out suspensions that will be overturned by the courts is counter productive. Pretending that anyone who points out the obvious barriers to proposed changes to the system is for the status quo is silly. It just means that they are cognizant of the reasoning why certain proposed ideas wont work.
So throw out the ideas that do not work and introduce ones that will.
Otherwise, the cheating remains, the fan base continues to age and numbers dwindle and soon they will be running horses in front of no one.
With this approach, I see 'we give up"...
I cannot accept that cheating, doping and downright criminal activity is an acceptable way of doing things.
Look, I am a realist. I know things do not change over night.
But based on our conversation, it seems no one wants to do anything even though they know bad stuff is going on.
And I must ask, how often do trainers that get suspended have their lawyers run off and shop for a judge willing to issue an injunction against a suspension?
And another thing. What good does it do to have rules if the people for whom the rules exist can simply break them with impunity then go run to a judge and have their punishment wiped out. It's incredibly frustrating.
Perhaps the rules have to be rewritten so that people are protected against the false positive or the contaminated syringe. Once that is done then there should be no ambiguity. And one size fits all rules are NOT the way to go. As we have seen, that method is 100% devoid of common sense and one size fits all is like a friggin dragnet. It punishes the innocent to get to the guilty.
But on the other hand trainers should spare no expense in making sure their ship is tight. Because if they have the money to run to a lawyer if and when they get 'days', they can afford to do whatever it takes to keep their operation clean.
This has been a very cool discussion. Hopefully you've found no reason to be upset.
I enjoyed the back and forth.

[Cannon shell]

europeans train their horses the way americans should be training their horses. europeans track their horses pretty much daily and put them through longer sessions and more reps. often times walking very long distances to get to the training facility. it's a completely different theory on training and one that I molded into my training regimen as much as possible. As far as the euro's and the drug thing yes, it is merely speculation on my part. that's all you can do. however, they busted the big boy and his trainer this spring. so you can be assured it's happening over there, to what extent is unknown.
Ever actually been to Europe? Know any European trainers who shared their methods?
I'm always amused when we are told how "european" trainers train. Do all American trainers train the same? Think Jacobson and Pletcher train alike?

[Cannon shell]

So throw out the ideas that do not work and introduce ones that will.
Otherwise, the cheating remains, the fan base continues to age and numbers dwindle and soon they will be running horses in front of no one.
With this approach, I see 'we give up"...
I cannot accept that cheating, doping and downright criminal activity is an acceptable way of doing things.
Look, I am a realist. I know things do not change over night.
But based on our conversation, it seems no one wants to do anything even though they know bad stuff is going on.
And I must ask, how often do trainers that get suspended have their lawyers run off and shop for a judge willing to issue an injunction against a suspension?
And another thing. What good does it do to have rules if the people for whom the rules exist can simply break them with impunity then go run to a judge and have their punishment wiped out. It's incredibly frustrating.
Perhaps the rules have to be rewritten so that people are protected against the false positive or the contaminated syringe. Once that is done then there should be no ambiguity. And one size fits all rules are NOT the way to go. As we have seen, that method is 100% devoid of common sense and one size fits all is like a friggin dragnet. It punishes the innocent to get to the guilty.
But on the other hand trainers should spare no expense in making sure their ship is tight. Because if they have the money to run to a lawyer if and when they get 'days', they can afford to do whatever it takes to keep their operation clean.
This has been a very cool discussion. Hopefully you've found no reason to be upset.
I enjoyed the back and forth.
The American justice system isnt bending to the whims of horseracing so horseracing must employ rules that will fit within the parameters of our laws. It is just that simple. What is hard is figuring out how to dole out punishment that fits the crime that isn't seen as too severe or overreaching by a third party, the courts.

[Show Me the Wire]

I am not implying there are no trainers breaking the rules.
My point is....just a minute...Is it your conclusion that the majority of barns in Europe are doping their horses?


All I am saying is the grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence or in this case the pond.

[thespaah]

European trainers train for European races. American trainers train for American races. Why is it hard to understand that there are huge differences?
There are? Earlier in the thread I posted a card from a UK track for today's (9/4) races. There were quite a few sprints on that card.
So explain what the difference between a 5.5f race here and one over there might be.
Is it Left hand vs Right hand turns? Is it that some courses over there are not flat? Is it that European horses tend to carry more weight?
Are those the differences?
If so, that's fine.

[Cannon shell]

There are? Earlier in the thread I posted a card from a UK track for today's (9/4) races. There were quite a few sprints on that card.
So explain what the difference between a 5.5f race here and one over there might be.
Is it Left hand vs Right hand turns? Is it that some courses over there are not flat? Is it that European horses tend to carry more weight?
Are those the differences?
If so, that's fine.
a 5.5 race over there is most likely no turns
or up a hill
or down a hill
or both
or on extremely soft ground that would never be run on over here outside of a grade 1 race
or in a 22 horse field

[chadk66]

Ever actually been to Europe? Know any European trainers who shared their methods?
I'm always amused when we are told how "european" trainers train. Do all American trainers train the same? Think Jacobson and Pletcher train alike?Yes and Yes