Guillot files ... claims buzzer used on WTC in Travers

[Grits]

http://www.drf.com/news/will-take-charges-jockey-accused-rival-trainer-using-electronic-device-travers

I'd probably do more than fire him now.

[JustRalph]

this is going to be fun.........

watch the rider after the race.......on the gallop out............

[PhantomOnTour]

I didn't see him try to dump anything in the gallop out.
Looked at it many times and I say Saez had nothing in his hands but reins and a whip.
You can see him switch hands with the whip as they straighten out.
Then after the race he switches hands again when he's untying the knot in the reins.
He's either got some of the quickest magician hands ever or....he is completely and totally innocent.

"The silliness never ends"
-TLG

[Stillriledup]

Clear HD video of gallop out. FF to 6:40 on the tape.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5SKSnd9Nvc

[JustRalph]

I didn't see him try to dump anything in the gallop out.
Looked at it many times and I say Saez had nothing in his hands but reins and a whip.
You can see him switch hands with the whip as they straighten out.
Then after the race he switches hands again when he's untying the knot in the reins.
He's either got some of the quickest magician hands ever or....he is completely and totally innocent.

"The silliness never ends"
-TLG

yeah, that's the way I see it, until he looks like he is reaching under the saddle........like I said........going to be fun......... :lol:

[Grits]

This one, of course, was a joke. I just cannot believe anyone is so stupid as to try something like this in a race of this magnitude.

Santos didn't. I doubt this young man will have done so either.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/horses/triple/derby/2003-05-10-santos-hand_x.htm

[Headbanger]

Nothing to see here...sour grapes from a loser. Move on.

[nijinski]

I can't take serious a guy that plays with Voodoo Dolls .

The doll is a guy from “Twilight” with slicked back hair in a Teflon suit and tie, except Guillot has placed pins in the doll’s head. Guillot also has a voodoo doll for Pletcher’s starter, Palace Malice, and is looking to make one for Pletcher’s other Travers starter, Verrazano.

By Jerry Bossert / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more-sports/guillot-stick-pletcher-article-1.1430480#ixzz2dZl8OKZf

[cj]

I can't take serious a guy that plays with Voodoo Dolls .

The doll is a guy from “Twilight” with slicked back hair in a Teflon suit and tie, except Guillot has placed pins in the doll’s head. Guillot also has a voodoo doll for Pletcher’s starter, Palace Malice, and is looking to make one for Pletcher’s other Travers starter, Verrazano.

By Jerry Bossert / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more-sports/guillot-stick-pletcher-article-1.1430480#ixzz2dZl8OKZf

Hmmm...Verrazano ran inexplicably bad and Palace Malice had a nightmare trip. Maybe there is something to this voodoo stuff.

[Stillriledup]

This one, of course, was a joke. I just cannot believe anyone is so stupid as to try something like this in a race of this magnitude.

Santos didn't. I doubt this young man will have done so either.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/horses/triple/derby/2003-05-10-santos-hand_x.htm

What does Santos situation have to do with this Saez guilt or innocence?

[chadk66]

Clear HD video of gallop out. FF to 6:40 on the tape.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5SKSnd9Nvc
looked to me there was something in his right hand when he switched the stick over to his right hand. he looked down at his hand when he stuck the whip in there. then when you get a side view, he grabs the reigns and it is a little ackward when he has the reins and the stick and whatever else it was. so he appears to stick whatever else there was under the pomel of the saddle. hmmm this will get interesting.

[Stillriledup]

Nothing to see here...sour grapes from a loser. Move on.

Why not let the process play itself out before posting something like this? I know that the idea that this might be a black eye for the sport you love hurts, but sweeping it under the rug isnt going to make racing better, its just going to make it less transparent...which neither of us wants.

[Stillriledup]

looked to me there was something in his right hand when he switched the stick over to his right hand. he looked down at his hand when he stuck the whip in there. then when you get a side view, he grabs the reigns and it is a little ackward when he has the reins and the stick and whatever else it was. so he appears to stick whatever else there was under the pomel of the saddle. hmmm this will get interesting.

At about 6:48 he moves his right hand off the reign and the right hand is clenched in a fist. I'm not sure why his hand would be clenched at that moment. If the horse veered or spooked, he would have less time to grab back onto the reigns with a closed hand.

[Grits]

Why not let the process play itself out before posting something like this? I know that the idea that this might be a black eye for the sport you love hurts, but sweeping it under the rug isnt going to make racing better, its just going to make it less transparent...which neither of us wants.

You're telling someone else "why not let it play out?"

Yet, here you are with your repeated post trying to build a case as though you're a prosecuting attorney?

Right. Fine advice.... roll on..... :rolleyes:

[nijinski]

Hmmm...Verrazano ran inexplicably bad and Palace Malice had a nightmare trip. Maybe there is something to this voodoo stuff.

You may as well throw out all the stats next time he shows up :lol:

[Stillriledup]

You're telling someone else "why not let it play out?"

Yet, here you are with your repeated post trying to build a case as though you're a prosecuting attorney?

Right. Fine advice.... roll on..... :rolleyes:

The other guy said "nothing happened, case closed" I ASKED the question and brought up the point about what i saw on video. I didnt suggest i thought he was guilty or innocent, i just stated an observation, its an observation that anyone can come up with on their own if they just watch the tape.

You never answered my question about Jose Santos and what his situation has to do with the Saez situation.

[Tom]

Are buzzers allowed at SRU Downs?

[magwell]

Are buzzers allowed at SRU Downs? It was only a rumor........

[Hoofless_Wonder]

No buzzers at SRU Downs, though of course the result stands and the jockey is given days or banned for life afterwards....

I don't see anything to this buzzer horse, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. The thing I look for is the tail of the horse snapping up and down sharply. Will Take Charge's tail doesn't do this in the stretch.

However, within the last few weeks, there was a horse in a stakes race (which I can't recall) that did have tail movement exactly like a buzzed horse. Can't remember if it was the winner or just one of the top three, but I was surprised to see that at a major track in a big race...the buzzer is usually for the bush leagues.

[Robert Fischer]

first of all I love the drama. :ThmbUp:


Too Long Didn't Read version (TLDR) = Nothing unusual about Will Take Charge's performance.
If Saez did cheat, it didn't make Will Take Charge faster, and he managed to pull off a busy ride at the same time.


----------------
FULL VERSION FOR HARDCORE FANS/PLAYERS :faint:

Saez has some idiosyncrasies, and those movements add fuel to the fire.

I'm going to look at Will Take Charge's Travers and his Jim Dandy.
He looks to have run the same race in both events. His persistent continual one-paced effort projects the illusion of a late 'burst' in both stretch runs.

In the Travers, Moreno inherited a Fantasy trip. (beyond a dream trip)
Verrazano "the superhorse", never impacted anything in that race except my wagering dollars ! :D
Palace Malice also failed to even show up on Moreno's radar.
Moreno got a stress-free trip and was left to fend off plodders late. Moreno weakened a bit late.

Moreno was not a Travers winning horse, and he did not run a Travers winning horse race.
Either did Will Take Charge.


WTC is an overachiever, and is a likeable horse who just keeps on grinding, but any type of Grade I appearance in that race was an illusion. Have to love "the Coach!" and his game horse, but it was a win by default.


So in the basic fundamentals of the race itself, Will Take Charge showed no benefit of a buzzer or machine. He ran the same race in the Jim Dandy with a different jock.


NEXT I will have to look at Saez' ride.
He got a fantasy trip in a low quality Grade I, but Saez also did a nice job of going Lefty(keeping WTC to the outside of the tiring Moreno), and was giving Vigorous encouragement throughout the stretch drive. Nice ride Saez.

For what little it is worth, Saez was very busy and displayed versatile stick-work during the time that he was allegedly 'plugging-in' the winner Will Take Charge.
Ditto disclaimer also for the fact that I could not see either an object or a movement during that busy stretch run which looked like Saez was shocking the horse.

[Robert Fischer]

The thing I look for is the tail of the horse snapping up and down sharply. Will Take Charge's tail doesn't do this in the stretch.

:ThmbUp: Excellent point , and one I forgot to check for. Tell-tail sign.

[Birdstone]

No buzzers at SRU Downs, though of course the result stands and the jockey is given days or banned for life afterwards....

I don't see anything to this buzzer horse, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. The thing I look for is the tail of the horse snapping up and down sharply. Will Take Charge's tail doesn't do this in the stretch.

However, within the last few weeks, there was a horse in a stakes race (which I can't recall) that did have tail movement exactly like a buzzed horse. Can't remember if it was the winner or just one of the top three, but I was surprised to see that at a major track in a big race...the buzzer is usually for the bush leagues.

Is that what is meant when a horse is "tail-swishing?"

[Hoofless_Wonder]

Is that what is meant when a horse is "tail-swishing?"

I don't believe so - the tail can be gyrating like a helicopter blade, and that can simply mean the horse is exhausted.

But often, when a horse is buzzed, you can see the tail snap up-and-down sharply, inline with the body. The horse will often jump sharply right or left as well.

Sad, but this does happen sometimes.

[iceknight]

first of all I love the drama. :ThmbUp:

Moreno was not a Travers winning horse, and he did not run a Travers winning horse race.
Either did Will Take Charge.

WTC is an overachiever, and is a likeable horse who just keeps on grinding, but any type of Grade I appearance in that race was an illusion. Have to love "the Coach!" and his game horse, but it was a win by default.

So in the basic fundamentals of the race itself, Will Take Charge showed no benefit of a buzzer or machine. He ran the same race in the Jim Dandy with a different jock.
I respect your analysis on PA in general, but I am not sure what's with the backhanded compliments to WTC.
What does he have to do get a "real Grade I" ..beat Wise Dan in a 1mi turf stakes or does he have to resurrect Secretariat and beat him in the Belmont? Haskell, Belmont, Wood memorial winners were in this race and WTC beat them fair and square on a early speed favoring track.
He definitely got checked in the Derby by the "beast" Verrazano or he would have done better than what he got. WTC has also beaten Oxbow earlier who went on to win Preakness.
I guess some people are never satisfied unless a Sunday Silence/Easy Goer type duel happens...gawd!

[098poi]

I think I recall recently at Del Mar down the stretch a horse was being hit with the whip and Trevor commented the horse didn't like it as his tail moved. Didn't seem like anything illegal but I was surprised Trevor even mentioned the tail.

[Milkshaker]

I like to watch horses gallop out with binoculars because 99% of the people I'm betting against do not do this.

I have noticed on my circuit that jockeys each have their patterns or idiosyncrasies when pulling horses up on the far turn. Not every time, but most of the time they do things in similar fashion.

Would love to see how Saez usually pulls horses up and what he does with his hands. It would help to determine if touching near the saddle pad, switching the stick, etc...Is normal MO for him on the gallop out.

[chadk66]

You're telling someone else "why not let it play out?"

Yet, here you are with your repeated post trying to build a case as though you're a prosecuting attorney?

Right. Fine advice.... roll on..... :rolleyes:I think he like I am just pointing out some abnormal things we see on the gallop out.

[Stillriledup]

Are buzzers allowed at SRU Downs?

No. No buzzers allowed. :D

[Stillriledup]

first of all I love the drama. :ThmbUp:


Too Long Didn't Read version (TLDR) = Nothing unusual about Will Take Charge's performance.
If Saez did cheat, it didn't make Will Take Charge faster, and he managed to pull off a busy ride at the same time.


----------------
FULL VERSION FOR HARDCORE FANS/PLAYERS :faint:

Saez has some idiosyncrasies, and those movements add fuel to the fire.

I'm going to look at Will Take Charge's Travers and his Jim Dandy.
He looks to have run the same race in both events. His persistent continual one-paced effort projects the illusion of a late 'burst' in both stretch runs.

In the Travers, Moreno inherited a Fantasy trip. (beyond a dream trip)
Verrazano "the superhorse", never impacted anything in that race except my wagering dollars ! :D
Palace Malice also failed to even show up on Moreno's radar.
Moreno got a stress-free trip and was left to fend off plodders late. Moreno weakened a bit late.

Moreno was not a Travers winning horse, and he did not run a Travers winning horse race.
Either did Will Take Charge.


WTC is an overachiever, and is a likeable horse who just keeps on grinding, but any type of Grade I appearance in that race was an illusion. Have to love "the Coach!" and his game horse, but it was a win by default.


So in the basic fundamentals of the race itself, Will Take Charge showed no benefit of a buzzer or machine. He ran the same race in the Jim Dandy with a different jock.


NEXT I will have to look at Saez' ride.
He got a fantasy trip in a low quality Grade I, but Saez also did a nice job of going Lefty(keeping WTC to the outside of the tiring Moreno), and was giving Vigorous encouragement throughout the stretch drive. Nice ride Saez.

For what little it is worth, Saez was very busy and displayed versatile stick-work during the time that he was allegedly 'plugging-in' the winner Will Take Charge.
Ditto disclaimer also for the fact that I could not see either an object or a movement during that busy stretch run which looked like Saez was shocking the horse.

Guillot's assertion was that the buzzer was used in the final 16th, but maybe he shouldnt have boxed himself into such a corner and just said that the horse might have gotten hit with the machine at any point in the race.

[5k-claim]

looked to me there was something in his right hand when he switched the stick over to his right hand. he looked down at his hand when he stuck the whip in there. then when you get a side view, he grabs the reigns and it is a little ackward when he has the reins and the stick and whatever else it was. so he appears to stick whatever else there was under the pomel of the saddle. hmmm this will get interesting.
With a post like this you should be well on your way to winning the Trainer title at SRU Downs.

Congratulations.
.

[Grits]

I think he like I am just pointing out some abnormal things we see on the gallop out.

This may well be, and I understand. Still, I'm not going to review this and make any determination, whatsoever. Its my hope that Guillot is sadly mistaken.

What I will do is keep in mind, what if I were in this young riders position? What.. might.. my.. excitement.. my level of adrenalin have been ... having just crossed the wire, winning the most prestigious race of my young career. Realizing I've just earned 10% of $1,000,000?

Might my heart rate be high, or my hands fidgety on the gallop out when this is hitting me? Yes, probably so..

How might some of you do?

[Stillriledup]

With a post like this you should be well on your way to winning the Trainer title at SRU Downs.

Congratulations.
.

Chad wouldnt have to deal with cheaters and supertrainers at SRU downs, so yeah, he would have a great shot to win that darn thing! :D :ThmbUp:

[TheEdge07]

Anyone here has billy patin's number?used a buzzer to win the arkansas derby aboard vahol..correct the name if its mispelled...the most amazing thing about patin..hes still allowed to race ride..

[chadk66]

Anyone here has billy patin's number?used a buzzer to win the arkansas derby aboard vahol..correct the name if its mispelled...the most amazing thing about patin..hes still allowed to race ride..hell he road races for me way back when

[chadk66]

With a post like this you should be well on your way to winning the Trainer title at SRU Downs.

Congratulations.
.I really don't see what anything I wrote has anything to do with winning a trainer title at SRU downs. little inept today?

[Saratoga_Mike]

The horse (WTC) started to run once he was in a clear path. After the race, the kid didn't know what hand to hold the whip in--probably overwhelmed by the win. Big deal.

[nijinski]

Bottom line EG probably got the idea from the name of the winning horse ,
he's quite a specimen that guy .

[chadk66]

The horse (WTC) started to run once he was in a clear path. After the race, the kid didn't know what hand to hold the whip in--probably overwhelmed by the win. Big deal.it's highly likely that's all it was

[PaceAdvantage]

Well well well. Lukas involved in another buzzer controversy?

We all remember the 1995 Kentucky Derby, do we not?

To this day, I believe something was passed between Stevens and Day. The video evidence in that case is pretty damning.

In this case, it isn't nearly as cut and dried. However, I can see where a paranoid trainer might get into his head that a buzzer was used after watching the pull up 50-100 times. There does seem to be some questionable movements by Saez. I don't think this will be enough to make the charges stick. After all, the 1995 Derby review found no evidence of cheating, and as I said, the video in that case was 10x worse than this one.

But it is interesting that a Lukas charge is once again accused of being shocked in a marquee event.

Let's climb into the wayback machine, shall we? (FF to 12:00)

G27sCLfyMgQ

There used to be a video on YouTube that was blown up that showed the "hand off" in slow motion...but you can see it in this video as well...

[CryingForTheHorses]

This may well be, and I understand. Still, I'm not going to review this and make any determination, whatsoever. Its my hope that Guillot is sadly mistaken.

What I will do is keep in mind, what if I were in this young riders position? What.. might.. my.. excitement.. my level of adrenalin have been ... having just crossed the wire, winning the most prestigious race of my young career. Realizing I've just earned 10% of $1,000,000?

Might my heart rate be high, or my hands fidgety on the gallop out when this is hitting me? Yes, probably so..

How might some of you do?


Grits..Hello ..Yes this man is sadly mistaken,How in the hell can you switch your stick to the other hand if you have something in the other..I rode this kid and have nothing but the very best to say about him..He was a class above the rest of the florida jocks and was a pleasure to ride.Im sure 95% of the posters on here have never rode a horse,Do you know how hard it is to switch a stick?...Dont jump to conclusions because some wackjob with voo-doo dolls is a sore loser.Im sure he will be the big loser in the end when he gets himslf sued over the comments and complaint he has made. Please dont judge someone guilty just because he has done good.Shame on most of you for hanging this incredibile jock for a job well done..Im sick of the guys here who do nothing but loath and pick apart someones great feats in horseracing.its sad because in this game there are good people who use proper judgment at all times.This was a fine example of one of them..

[PaceAdvantage]

Grits..Hello ..Yes this man is sadly mistaken,How in the hell can you switch your stick to the other hand if you have something in the other..I rode this kid and have nothing but the very best to say about him..He was a class above the rest of the florida jocks and was a pleasure to ride.Im sure 95% of the posters on here have never rode a horse,Do you know how hard it is to switch a stick?...Dont jump to conclusions because some wackjob with voo-doo dolls is a sore loser.Im sure he will be the big loser in the end when he gets himslf sued over the comments and complaint he has made. Please dont judge someone guilty just because he has done good.Shame on most of you for hanging this incredibile jock for a job well done..Im sick of the guys here who do nothing but loath and pick apart someones great feats in horseracing.its sad because in this game there are good people who use proper judgment at all times.This was a fine example of one of them..If anyone can switch a stick with something else in their hand, it would be a jockey...they do all sorts of neat things with their sticks since they have had one in their hand a good part of their lives.

[CryingForTheHorses]

If anyone can switch a stick with something else in their hand, it would be a jockey...they do all sorts of neat things with their sticks since they have had one in their hand a good part of their lives.


You seem to forget,I was a rider also..Dont tell me your hanging this kid too?..

[Saratoga_Mike]

Well well well. Lukas involved in another buzzer controversy?

We all remember the 1995 Kentucky Derby, do we not?

To this day, I believe something was passed between Stevens and Day. The video evidence in that case is pretty damning.

In this case, it isn't nearly as cut and dried. However, I can see where a paranoid trainer might get into his head that a buzzer was used after watching the pull up 50-100 times. There does seem to be some questionable movements by Saez. I don't think this will be enough to make the charges stick. After all, the 1995 Derby review found no evidence of cheating, and as I said, the video in that case was 10x worse than this one.

But it is interesting that a Lukas charge is once again accused of being shocked in a marquee event.

Let's climb into the wayback machine, shall we? (FF to 12:00)

G27sCLfyMgQ

There used to be a video on YouTube that was blown up that showed the "hand off" in slow motion...but you can see it in this video as well...

They were slapping hands. The equivalent of a high-five...happens all the time after big races. I did love the "down the stretch they come" when they were 150 feet from the wire - what a horrible announcer.

[cordep17]

It seems to me as well that they were just high fiving, but it did seem an extended high five.

I would need to see that blow up that PA was talking about to form my own opinion.

[PaceAdvantage]

You seem to forget,I was a rider also..Dont tell me your hanging this kid too?..Look, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not saying he buzzed this horse. In fact, I think I said the video shows no real proof of any wrong doing.

What I said was that if you looked at the video long enough, you begin to see questionable things. Then again, if you look at a cloud in the sky long enough, you'll eventually see a horse.

So no, I'm not hanging anyone. But I'm also not dismissing the charge out of hand simply because I might think it would be impossible for the jockey to switch the stick while holding a buzzer.

[PaceAdvantage]

They were slapping hands. The equivalent of a high-five...happens all the time after big races. I did love the "down the stretch they come" when they were 150 feet from the wire - what a horrible announcer.Oh come on. If you watch it in slow mo with a zoom in, there is no way they were just slapping hands.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Look, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not saying he buzzed this horse. In fact, I think I said the video shows no real proof of any wrong doing.

What I said was that if you looked at the video long enough, you begin to see questionable things. Then again, if you look at a cloud in the sky long enough, you'll eventually see a horse.

So no, I'm not hanging anyone. But I'm also not dismissing the charge out of hand simply because I might think it would be impossible for the jockey to switch the stick while holding a buzzer.

That's actually very funny, not sure you even realized it!

[Saratoga_Mike]

Oh come on. If you watch it in slow mo with a zoom in, there is no way they were just slapping hands.

Praying together?

[PaceAdvantage]

Well, the slow mo closeup video of the 1995 Derby is no longer on YouTube...

http://cangamble.blogspot.com/2008/04/how-widespread-is-buzzer-use-in-horse.html

That sucks...it was a very interesting piece of tape...

[Robert Fischer]

I respect your analysis on PA in general, but I am not sure what's with the backhanded compliments to WTC.
What does he have to do get a "real Grade I" ..beat Wise Dan in a 1mi turf stakes or does he have to resurrect Secretariat and beat him in the Belmont? Haskell, Belmont, Wood memorial winners were in this race and WTC beat them fair and square on a early speed favoring track.
He definitely got checked in the Derby by the "beast" Verrazano or he would have done better than what he got. WTC has also beaten Oxbow earlier who went on to win Preakness.
I guess some people are never satisfied unless a Sunday Silence/Easy Goer type duel happens...gawd!

nothing backhanded was meant.

[Robert Fischer]

Guillot's assertion was that the buzzer was used in the final 16th, but maybe he shouldnt have boxed himself into such a corner and just said that the horse might have gotten hit with the machine at any point in the race.

I don't think Guillot actually saw a buzzer (i could be wrong) so much as that he felt that the illusion of Will Take Charge's seemingly fast final 1/16th combined with Saez movements lead him to that belief.

My point was that Moreno was simply a tiring horse , that the race itself was slow-ish, and that Will Take Charge ran the same race in the Jim Dandy.

Without a fast final 1/16th or something unusually game from WTC in the final 16th there is no buzzer question.
The whole assertion is based on WTC running down Guillot's horse, not on (AFAIK) some visual evidence of a buzzer.

[5k-claim]

I really don't see what anything I wrote has anything to do with winning a trainer title at SRU downs. little inept today? In your first post you straight up said "it looked to me there was something in his right hand", and now you are saying it is "highly likely" there was nothing. In other words, you are saying that it is likely that you did not see what you saw.

.

[Stillriledup]

I don't think Guillot actually saw a buzzer (i could be wrong) so much as that he felt that the illusion of Will Take Charge's seemingly fast final 1/16th combined with Saez movements lead him to that belief.

My point was that Moreno was simply a tiring horse , that the race itself was slow-ish, and that Will Take Charge ran the same race in the Jim Dandy.

Without a fast final 1/16th or something unusually game from WTC in the final 16th there is no buzzer question.
The whole assertion is based on WTC running down Guillot's horse, not on (AFAIK) some visual evidence of a buzzer.

Exactly. I just came on here to post this that there arent too many "buzzergates" on horses who lose. If a guy feels he's not going to win before the race and he feels that finishing 2nd is like 'winning' or finishing 4th instead of 5th would "Feel amazing" hes not going to hesitate, there is 0 pct chance someone is going to "call out" a non winning horse for buzzergate. But, maybe we ought to look at videotapes of ALL the finishers in these big races.

Tracks have a huge habit of NOT showing gallop outs or follwing the galloping out runners with a wide shot of the gallop out....they zoom in on the winner. Than, in NY, they do this silly thing where they quickly cut to a replay of the stretch run.....while live moments of gallop outs and what happens after the wire are lost forever. I'm in not that much of a rush, i'll wait a full minute to see the slow mo of what i just watched in lieu of a great shot of the horse's galloping out, but no tracks seem to ever show you what you want to see and if they do, its by accident.

[Robert Fischer]

I think I recall recently at Del Mar down the stretch a horse was being hit with the whip and Trevor commented the horse didn't like it as his tail moved. Didn't seem like anything illegal but I was surprised Trevor even mentioned the tail.

Some horses(often young) hate the whip and will swish the tail.

It can also be a sign of pain(although the pain-swish usually is different from maidens feeling the whip)

and like Hoofless_Wonder mentioned it could be a sign of a buzzer as well.


of course horses could be green/in pain/buzzed etc.. without a tail swish as well.
Just a body language clue.

[dnlgfnk]

Stevens just won the Delmar Debutante.

I didn't see any significant tail swishing, but his mount accelerated quickly entering the stretch after an enervating duel with the favorite, and he did clasp hands with several of the connections nearing the circle, though none likely as nefarious as that ol' down on his luck, put another jock over the rail Pat Day.

[TheEdge07]

I have watched the video a thousand times with birds...Looked like stevens turned before day stuck out his hand..watch the jock in the yellow silks hes looking at the hand slap..why?

[thespaah]

I'm not seeing anything but Saez untying the knot in the reins.
When he was interviewed by Donna Barton on the return to the winner's circle, the video shows Saez fidgeting and the out rider looking directly at Saez's hand motions. If anything untoward been going on, the outrider would be required to to report what he saw.

[PaceAdvantage]

If anything untoward been going on, the outrider would be required to to report what he saw.Required by whom exactly?

The only one requiring him to report would be his own conscience and code of morality.

If he lacked either of those, there would be no requirement to report.

[Stillriledup]

Well well well. Lukas involved in another buzzer controversy?

We all remember the 1995 Kentucky Derby, do we not?

To this day, I believe something was passed between Stevens and Day. The video evidence in that case is pretty damning.

In this case, it isn't nearly as cut and dried. However, I can see where a paranoid trainer might get into his head that a buzzer was used after watching the pull up 50-100 times. There does seem to be some questionable movements by Saez. I don't think this will be enough to make the charges stick. After all, the 1995 Derby review found no evidence of cheating, and as I said, the video in that case was 10x worse than this one.

But it is interesting that a Lukas charge is once again accused of being shocked in a marquee event.

Let's climb into the wayback machine, shall we? (FF to 12:00)

G27sCLfyMgQ

There used to be a video on YouTube that was blown up that showed the "hand off" in slow motion...but you can see it in this video as well...

Could there also be a "Tell" in this video? Watch the winning jocks' head. Dont watch the handoff, watch the head. Looks, looks back and then looks again....you know, to make sure.....that....he really high fived the right guy? Not sure what the last little, subtle, glance meant. If you're just high fiving, why would you give a quick glance after you had already turned your head away to watch where you are going? ;)

[thespaah]

Required by whom exactly?

The only one requiring him to report would be his own conscience and code of morality.

If he lacked either of those, there would be no requirement to report.
Is the outrider not acting in an official capacity of some kind?
Are these people not duty bound to report anything that 'just doesn't look right'?
And even if there is 'no duty to report', an individual with the smallest amount of integrity would report such an incident.
At least in my world.

[thespaah]

Required by whom exactly?

The only one requiring him to report would be his own conscience and code of morality.

If he lacked either of those, there would be no requirement to report.
"there would be no requirement to report."
Is that in the rules of racing in NY? Or is that simply your assessment?
That's not a challenge. It's a question.

[PaceAdvantage]

Is the outrider not acting in an official capacity of some kind?
Are these people not duty bound to report anything that 'just doesn't look right'?
And even if there is 'no duty to report', an individual with the smallest amount of integrity would report such an incident.
At least in my world.Absolutely no disrespect intended, but if that is your world, it isn't the real world.

[PaceAdvantage]

"there would be no requirement to report."
Is that in the rules of racing in NY? Or is that simply your assessment?
That's not a challenge. It's a question.What is it you don't understand?

Outriders are not racing officials. Are they required to report any wrongdoing? I'm not sure.

Even if they were...that doesn't mean all outriders will report wrongdoing. Perhaps there is a "thin green line" where outriders generally don't report on fellow riders. Kind of like the "thin blue line" among cops. I don't know...

The point is, just because someone is required to do something, often times, they won't...quite a few people take pride in not being "rats" to borrow from the vernacular of the mob.

[SandyW]

Could there also be a "Tell" in this video? Watch the winning jocks' head. Dont watch the handoff, watch the head. Looks, looks back and then looks again....you know, to make sure.....that....he really high fived the right guy? Not sure what the last little, subtle, glance meant. If you're just high fiving, why would you give a quick glance after you had already turned your head away to watch where you are going? ;)

You should stick to or start to play poker instead of betting horses if you think that you are such a genius at reading tells.

[thespaah]

Absolutely no disrespect intended, but if that is your world, it isn't the real world.
Not even in the area of integrity?

[JustRalph]

I don't think he gets 10% of a million?

[thespaah]

What is it you don't understand?

Outriders are not racing officials. Are they required to report any wrongdoing? I'm not sure.

Even if they were...that doesn't mean all outriders will report wrongdoing. Perhaps there is a "thin green line" where outriders generally don't report on fellow riders. Kind of like the "thin blue line" among cops. I don't know...

The point is, just because someone is required to do something, often times, they won't...quite a few people take pride in not being "rats" to borrow from the vernacular of the mob.
Ok..
Now, let's hypothesize for a moment.
With all of the accusations and suspicions posters on here discuss as to their theories regarding the game and how those accusations and suspicions( betting after the start, PED's in the barns) and how those suspicions may adversely affect the introduction of new people to the game, in your opinion would it not be prudent for a racing jurisdiction to where practical any measures which would be used to protect the integrity of the sport? Things such as giving outriders authority to report suspicious activity?

[therussmeister]

I don't think he gets 10% of a million?
No, he get's 10% of 60% - or 6%. And that's before he pays his agent.

[Grits]

No, he get's 10% of 60% - or 6%. And that's before he pays his agent.

Russmeister, you're correct, as its related to the purse. An old link. I'm sorry for my error.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-72020.html

[chadk66]

In your first post you straight up said "it looked to me there was something in his right hand", and now you are saying it is "highly likely" there was nothing. In other words, you are saying that it is likely that you did not see what you saw.

.first off you didn't answer my question. and I obviously wasn't the only one that thought what they saw was rather peculiar. have you ever galloped or breezed a thoroughbred?

[barn32]

You know who you are...

http://imageshack.us/a/img62/1875/zswb.jpg

[Fager Fan]

Is the outrider not acting in an official capacity of some kind?
Are these people not duty bound to report anything that 'just doesn't look right'?
And even if there is 'no duty to report', an individual with the smallest amount of integrity would report such an incident.
At least in my world.

Donna isn't an outrider. She's a reporter on horseback.

[Milkshaker]

I love this quote from DRF:

"Sources also confirmed that the stewards did interview Saez on Saturday and that his locker was searched."

Searching his locker is like when the tracks all of a sudden required extra security guards posted outside the mutuel offices at tracks nationwide after the 2002 BC Fix Six.

[Stillriledup]

You should stick to or start to play poker instead of betting horses if you think that you are such a genius at reading tells.

Im better at reading "tells" of horses on video replays. Thanks for the compliment that i'm a genius, feels good to be up there with the Mensa! :D

[JustRalph]

Russmeister, you're correct, as its related to the purse. An old link. I'm sorry for my error.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-72020.html

I knew what you meant, but I thought maybe I missed a bonus or something.

[Stillriledup]

I love this quote from DRF:

"Sources also confirmed that the stewards did interview Saez on Saturday and that his locker was searched."

Searching his locker is like when the tracks all of a sudden required extra security guards posted outside the mutuel offices at tracks nationwide after the 2002 BC Fix Six.

Searching his locker is the 'easy way out'. They can search, interview and whatnut before they clear him of any wrongdoing.

If Saez is guilty and gets caught, it obviously looks bad for him, but it also looks bad for the people who caught him.....its not good PR for the track to catch him breaking racing rules in this fashion.....know what i'm saying?

What they really ought to do is spend days and days and go back and review every Mount that Saez has ridden in 2013. They need to review all video tapes, top to bottom, watching gallop outs, etc. And, that's just a start, they would also need to review betting patterns on all horses ridden by this guy to see if there's any "connector" in the betting pools. This would be a painstaking process and would take months to complete....but, we all know that they're just going to say "nothing in the locker, the guy is innocent, case closed" and toss Guillot under the bus as a disgruntled sore loser rather than really dig into this case the way they really need to dig into it.

[turninforhome10]

It seems to me that there will be 3 responses to this.
1) The person who loves the sport so much that they can't believe
2) The person who loves the sport so much that they want to see an investigation.
3) The conspiracy theorist that uses the sport to support either as a livelihood or a degenerate gambler.
I would prefer to think I am in the 2 category. Sorry, I have been there. Front lines. What I see upon a 30 minute exam of the video is a little concerning. My point is that there is no reason for Saez to move his hands the way they are moving. I will say this though. If a jock is going to use a buzzer, he is not going to do it at the Travers unless A) he is that slick that he or she can pull it off B) he is that stupid\hungry to take a shot on a stage like that to see if he can pull it off ie Billy Patin
I ask you to watch the tape again and try and convince this fan that his hand gestures are not a little bit funny. I find absolutely no reason for a jock to move their hands in that pattern ending up sticking their hand under the saddle by the withers and remain doing so for 3 seconds, when they just won the biggest race of their young career. See fist pump.
But alas, the whole stinking system has no way to really make any decision that anyone is going to be happy with. That is the part of the game that bothers me the most. I know what a horse looks like when they are plugged in and if you are gonna call foul then you better do it before the race goes official. So Gulliot is calling foul on something he did not notice himself before the winners circle. It is strange what the kid is doing with his hands, but is way to late now to want things changed without loosing more fans and potential owners.
Between this and loosing Saginaw, someone from our side better put a foot in someones a** soon or less and lees people will be willing to invest in playing this game whether as an owner or a racing forum website.
But since it is brought up and now we have an investigation, can the stewards and lawyers get it right this time, so we have a precedent for review.

[Stillriledup]

It seems to me that there will be 3 responses to this.
1) The person who loves the sport so much that they can't believe
2) The person who loves the sport so much that they want to see an investigation.
3) The conspiracy theorist that uses the sport to support either as a livelihood or a degenerate gambler.
I would prefer to think I am in the 2 category. Sorry, I have been there. Front lines. What I see upon a 30 minute exam of the video is a little concerning. My point is that there is no reason for Saez to move his hands the way they are moving. I will say this though. If a jock is going to use a buzzer, he is not going to do it at the Travers unless A) he is that slick that he or she can pull it off B) he is that stupid\hungry to take a shot on a stage like that to see if he can pull it off ie Billy Patin
I ask you to watch the tape again and try and convince this fan that his hand gestures are not a little bit funny. I find absolutely no reason for a jock to move their hands in that pattern ending up sticking their hand under the saddle by the withers and remain doing so for 3 seconds, when they just won the biggest race of their young career. See fist pump.
But alas, the whole stinking system has no way to really make any decision that anyone is going to be happy with. That is the part of the game that bothers me the most. I know what a horse looks like when they are plugged in and if you are gonna call foul then you better do it before the race goes official. So Gulliot is calling foul on something he did not notice himself before the winners circle. It is strange what the kid is doing with his hands, but is way to late now to want things changed without loosing more fans and potential owners.
Between this and loosing Saginaw, someone from our side better put a foot in someones a** soon or less and lees people will be willing to invest in playing this game whether as an owner or a racing forum website.

Arent there head on video tapes of Saez last few hundred mounts to see if he consistently moves his hands in that matter on gallop outs? Shouldnt be hard to see, its just a matter if they want to be real investigators or they just want to sweep this away so their track doesnt get bad publicity.

[turninforhome10]

Arent there head on video tapes of Saez last few hundred mounts to see if he consistently moves his hands in that matter on gallop outs? Shouldnt be hard to see, its just a matter if they want to be real investigators or they just want to sweep this away so their track doesnt get bad publicity.
I did think the DRF went a little overboard in nailing Gulliot as kook, but Lukas is royalty.

[Irish Boy]

Let there be an investigation, and let it be thorough. If Lukas is guilty, then let there be severe sanctions. But if there is a way of showing that Lukas is not guilty (and that might be impossible), then Guillot should face consequences.

[affirmedny]

Could there also be a "Tell" in this video? Watch the winning jocks' head. Dont watch the handoff, watch the head. Looks, looks back and then looks again....you know, to make sure.....that....he really high fived the right guy? Not sure what the last little, subtle, glance meant. If you're just high fiving, why would you give a quick glance after you had already turned your head away to watch where you are going? ;)

At SRU downs, you get paid if your horse uses a buzzer.....

[iceknight]

Anyone here has billy patin's number?used a buzzer to win the arkansas derby aboard vahol..correct the name if its mispelled...the most amazing thing about patin..hes still allowed to race ride.. he was suspended five years.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Is this guy Oprah for horseplayers or what?!:D

[nijinski]

I don't think Guillot actually saw a buzzer (i could be wrong) so much as that he felt that the illusion of Will Take Charge's seemingly fast final 1/16th combined with Saez movements lead him to that belief.

My point was that Moreno was simply a tiring horse , that the race itself was slow-ish, and that Will Take Charge ran the same race in the Jim Dandy.

Without a fast final 1/16th or something unusually game from WTC in the final 16th there is no buzzer question.
The whole assertion is based on WTC running down Guillot's horse, not on (AFAIK) some visual evidence of a buzzer.

And it was E Guillot"s brother Chip who started this whole thing and I would
wager that he had a nice wager on Moreno

[iceknight]

If anyone can switch a stick with something else in their hand, it would be a jockey...they do all sorts of neat things with their sticks since they have had one in their hand a good part of their lives. Really, Pace? TMI please :lol: :lol:

[Stillriledup]

At SRU downs, you get paid if your horse uses a buzzer.....

You do. (assuming you win) Winners get paid. (and jocks who use buzzers get disciplined later!)
:ThmbUp:

[Stillriledup]

Really, Pace? TMI please :lol: :lol:

Another "tell" there possibly ;)

. Sorry, PA. :D

[iceknight]

Let there be an investigation, and let it be thorough. If Lukas is guilty, then let there be severe sanctions. But if there is a way of showing that Lukas is not guilty (and that might be impossible), then Guillot should face consequences. Yes and IF there is NO conclusive evidence of buzzer shown.. can we strap Eric Guillot to a rodeo bull (mechanical one) and then attach a few buzzers to him... :lol: :lol:

[Stillriledup]

Yes and IF there is NO conclusive evidence of buzzer shown.. can we strap Eric Guillot to a rodeo bull (mechanical one) and then attach a few buzzers to him... :lol: :lol:

It depends what "evidence" that they find to exonerate him. I would also suggest that this be a more comprehensive investigation considering that the "investigators" have incentive to find him innocent since a guilty verdict would hurt their own bottom line financially as well as perception-wise.

[cordep17]

Well well well. Lukas involved in another buzzer controversy?

We all remember the 1995 Kentucky Derby, do we not?

To this day, I believe something was passed between Stevens and Day. The video evidence in that case is pretty damning.

In this case, it isn't nearly as cut and dried. However, I can see where a paranoid trainer might get into his head that a buzzer was used after watching the pull up 50-100 times. There does seem to be some questionable movements by Saez. I don't think this will be enough to make the charges stick. After all, the 1995 Derby review found no evidence of cheating, and as I said, the video in that case was 10x worse than this one.

But it is interesting that a Lukas charge is once again accused of being shocked in a marquee event.

Let's climb into the wayback machine, shall we? (FF to 12:00)

G27sCLfyMgQ

There used to be a video on YouTube that was blown up that showed the "hand off" in slow motion...but you can see it in this video as well...

watched it a few times more.
Definitely looks to be a handoff---Im just not sure why the other jockey would be in it...

[Robert Fischer]

And it was E Guillot"s brother Chip who started this whole thing and I would
wager that he had a nice wager on Moreno

Agreed., that there's either a big wager :), or serious Bragging Rights on the line!

$25.40 $9.80 not a bad door prize for Moreno, considering it was no secret that he'd get the lead and be uncontested early by the 2 favorites (Palace Malice and Verrazano).

All you needed was faith in the horse - something Guillot bros have in droves.

[iceknight]

watched it a few times more.
Definitely looks to be a handoff---Im just not sure why the other jockey would be in it... Pat day also rode a Lukas trained horse that day.. of course, yet another note from that day is that the pacesetter Serena's Song was also a lukas horse.. soooooooo were they all connected by wifi buzzers?

[PhantomOnTour]

All this talk of "suspicious" or "peculiar" movements by Saez is total bull.

Just what was suspicious?
he switched his whip from one hand to the other?
he untied the knot in the reins?
after untying the knot he dropped his hands and let all the rein out?

Did anyone watch the replays and still shots on the NBC telecast today?
They slowed and showed all the "crucial moments" where Saez may have done something "suspicious"...they even show his right hand open, and guess what, it's empty. Then they move the tape forward a bit to when he opens his left hand...and again, nothing.

Bottom line:
Saez and Lukas are innocent
Guillot is a prick

[Stillriledup]

Unfortunately for the "tin foil hat" crowd :D i found a camera angle on the 1995 Derby that sort of indicates that Gary Stevens is innocent of all charges. There's a low camera angle on a video i found that shows Gary twirl his stick in his right hand right after the wire (and before the "handoff") and then shows him open his hand. Now, the camera cuts the video of the bottom of his hand off, so you can't see if he dropped anything out of his hand when it opened up, but you can see his right hand open about 5 seconds before his handshake with Pat Day.

You can see this at 17:10 on this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G27sCLfyMgQ

[Stillriledup]

All this talk of "suspicious" or "peculiar" movements by Saez is total bull.

Just what was suspicious?
he switched his whip from one hand to the other?
he untied the knot in the reins?
after untying the knot he dropped his hands and let all the rein out?

Did anyone watch the replays and still shots on the NBC telecast today?
They slowed and showed all the "crucial moments" where Saez may have done something "suspicious"...they even show his right hand open, and guess what, it's empty. Then they move the tape forward a bit to when he opens his left hand...and again, nothing.

Bottom line:
Saez and Lukas are innocent
Guillot is a prick

Racing has a bad reputation right now of sweeping things under the rug and has a huge transparency problem, to come down hard on Guillot, who is essentially a whistleblower here, is the wrong message i think.


Guillot isnt well liked right now but i have to admit, as a bettor, i would rather have a blustery Guillot (or a blustery Dutrow) say something about what he thinks he saw than a trainer who might just keep it to himself.

[statepierback]

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1wwPKz4-ZzzeWtMSW4wOHFnOEk/edit?pli=1

[Elliott Sidewater]

Clearly shows an empty right hand at 39 seconds. I think he as just switching the reins, pretty sure of that. What do others think?

[TurfRuler]

Was it a disposable "buzzer" or are we entertaining in the world of Dick Frances?

[chadk66]

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1wwPKz4-ZzzeWtMSW4wOHFnOEk/edit?pli=1now that video ought to put this thing to rest. the part where he pulled his right hand off and still had his hand clenched when he brought it to his thigh and then back to his reins was the part on the full speed video that made it look very sketchy. But this video nullifies that for sure.

[JustRalph]

somebody get that horse whisper dude to ask the horse

[PhantomOnTour]

Racing has a bad reputation right now of sweeping things under the rug and has a huge transparency problem, to come down hard on Guillot, who is essentially a whistleblower here, is the wrong message i think.


Guillot isnt well liked right now but i have to admit, as a bettor, i would rather have a blustery Guillot (or a blustery Dutrow) say something about what he thinks he saw than a trainer who might just keep it to himself.
Your first paragraph is ridiculous - there is nothing to sweep under the rug here, and Guillot is not a whistleblower.
Learn the difference between a whistleblower and a sore losing whiner.

There are different levels of not "keeping it to himself"...you do know it's possible to file the complaint without talking to folks in the racing press.
It's also possible to answer questions with "let's let things play out" then the punk ass allegations he is throwing around.

[SandyW]

Racing has a bad reputation right now of sweeping things under the rug and has a huge transparency problem, to come down hard on Guillot, who is essentially a whistleblower here, is the wrong message i think.


Guillot isnt well liked right now but i have to admit, as a bettor, i would rather have a blustery Guillot (or a blustery Dutrow) say something about what he thinks he saw than a trainer who might just keep it to himself.

Guillot never saw anything until his brother talk him into this BS.

[SandyW]

The minute Saez is cleared which will be soon, he should call his lawyer and sue this phony cry baby sour loser for everything that his got.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

Was it a disposable "buzzer" or are we entertaining in the world of Dick Frances?

Disposable buzzers are usually dropped after the wire, going around the turn. That's one of the problems with the Thunder Gulch Derby - why not just drop the damn thing rather than risk a handoff? The other problem is that like Will Take Charge in this year's Travers, I didn't see Thunder Gulch's tail show the buzz behavior by snapping violently - that alone doesn't mean he wasn't buzzed, but it makes it less likely.

As for the world of Dick Francis, I don't recall any of his novels mentioning or using a buzzer - though one of his stories revolves around conditioning horses with a flamethrower and high-pitched whistle, resulting in a surge of adrenalin from the fear of being burned.

[iceknight]

Guys.. I have a new theory
Someone had a voodoo doll of Jose Ortiz and punched it right during the end of the stretch near.. this could have been a bettor who had big money riding on WTC.


Check also
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=buzzer+used+in+racing&FORM=HDRSC2

By the way I got there by trying to find out what these buzzers look like.. I mean, for all this chatter,.. no one has actually posted one link to what these darned buzzers look like!!

[Milkshaker]

The minute Saez is cleared which will be soon, he should call his lawyer and sue this phony cry baby sour loser for everything that his got.

I believe one of the key components to winning a libel or slander case is proof that the words have damaged someone (ie financially, by direct loss of business). Tough to prove in this instance in my opinion.

[JustRalph]

Can anybody tell me why he was reaching under the saddle on the gallop out?

[PhantomOnTour]

Can anybody tell me why he was reaching under the saddle on the gallop out?
He didn't reach under the saddle - ever, period.
At what point on the tape is he doing this?
Did you happen to also watch the jock on Moreno during the gallop out?
Seems like he was reaching under the saddle too...hmmm....from about the 4:24 thru 4:28 mark the jock on Moreno has his hands low near the saddle too...what was he doing?
Nothing, just like Saez.

[taxicab]

First of all, the source has to be considered.
Eric Guillot.
Just because you train a racehorses, it doesn't mean you are mentally stable.
It's pretty well understood that Guillot is a clown.
He loves attention, and he want's to feel important.
Anything he says is self serving, "look at me" hogwash.
And.......he's a sore loser.
In terms of the video, It shows nothing out of the ordinary.
Jockey Saez did nothing out of the norm after the race.
Every jockey has hand movements with their reins after the wire.
That's just the way it is.
And in terms of a buzzer, if you are planning to "plug a horse in" you have to try it out on the horse more than once in the mornings to make sure the horse doesn't freak out when the "pop" is administered.
It's not just a, "lets plug him in for the race Sat. deal".
So that must be factored in also.
Do you really think Saez and Lukas were conspiring for an extended amount of time to pull this one off.........very doubtful.

[nijinski]

Guillot never saw anything until his brother talk him into this BS.
Exactly . My perception is he lost a large win bet wants revenge .
No doubt Eric wants the big purse too .

[JustRalph]

He didn't reach under the saddle - ever, period.
At what point on the tape is he doing this?
Did you happen to also watch the jock on Moreno during the gallop out?
Seems like he was reaching under the saddle too...hmmm....from about the 4:24 thru 4:28 mark the jock on Moreno has his hands low near the saddle too...what was he doing?
Nothing, just like Saez.

In the link from post #4 at 6:55 it sure looks like he reaches under the front of the saddle with his left hand?

Btw, just for the record I don't think Guillotine is right at all. I don't see the horse react during the race in any manner that suggests he got whacked. But just watching the tape does make me, a layman, wonder what he was doing on the gallop out.

[BetHorses!]

blown up

the link i saw is private..its blown up ...let me try to have the guy release

[Stillriledup]

Your first paragraph is ridiculous - there is nothing to sweep under the rug here, and Guillot is not a whistleblower.
Learn the difference between a whistleblower and a sore losing whiner.

There are different levels of not "keeping it to himself"...you do know it's possible to file the complaint without talking to folks in the racing press.
It's also possible to answer questions with "let's let things play out" then the punk ass allegations he is throwing around.

You didnt read what i wrote. Read it again.

[Stillriledup]

First of all, the source has to be considered.
Eric Guillot.
Just because you train a racehorses, it doesn't mean you are mentally stable.
It's pretty well understood that Guillot is a clown.
He loves attention, and he want's to feel important.
Anything he says is self serving, "look at me" hogwash.
And.......he's a sore loser.
In terms of the video, It shows nothing out of the ordinary.
Jockey Saez did nothing out of the norm after the race.
Every jockey has hand movements with their reins after the wire.
That's just the way it is.
And in terms of a buzzer, if you are planning to "plug a horse in" you have to try it out on the horse more than once in the mornings to make sure the horse doesn't freak out when the "pop" is administered.
It's not just a, "lets plug him in for the race Sat. deal".
So that must be factored in also.
Do you really think Saez and Lukas were conspiring for an extended amount of time to pull this one off.........very doubtful.

Actually the last thing you want to consider is the source. Once the question is asked, there's no need to determine the answer of the question by bashing the messenger.

What's the difference if Guillot brought this up or if someone who was the most respected person in all of horse racing brought it up? You have the message, bashing the messenger is just going to get you sidetracked, its not relevant.

[SandyW]

I believe one of the key components to winning a libel or slander case is proof that the words have damaged someone (ie financially, by direct loss of business). Tough to prove in this instance in my opinion.
I don't know about that as it may be pretty easy to prove that an owner or a trainer will not use this jockey because of this hanging over his head even if proven untrue.

[taxicab]

Actually the last thing you want to consider is the source. Once the question is asked, there's no need to determine the answer of the question by bashing the messenger.

What's the difference if Guillot brought this up or if someone who was the most respected person in all of horse racing brought it up? You have the message, bashing the messenger is just going to get you sidetracked, its not relevant.


What in the world are you talking about ?
Of course you consider the source.
The source is completely relevant.
Paging common sense 101......

Newsflash.....
Guillot is not the messenger.
HE IS THE ACCUSER !!!!

[Stillriledup]

What in the world are you talking about ?
Of course you consider the source.
The source is completely relevant.
Paging common sense 101......

Newsflash.....
Guillot is not the messenger.
HE IS THE ACCUSER !!!!

You're missing what i'm saying. My point is that using the reputation of the accuser to determine whether or not someone is guilty is a bad idea, its not fact based in anyway. The video tape doesnt change and whether he has a buzzer or not doesnt change, the tape is the tape and he's either guilty or innocent....he isnt more innocent if Guillot is the accuser just like he wouldnt be more guilty if Mother Teresa was the accuser.

[taxicab]

You're missing what i'm saying. My point is that using the reputation of the accuser to determine whether or not someone is guilty is a bad idea, its not fact based in anyway. The video tape doesnt change and whether he has a buzzer or not doesnt change, the tape is the tape and he's either guilty or innocent....he isnt more innocent if Guillot is the accuser just like he wouldnt be more guilty if Mother Teresa was the accuser.


Have you ever heard the old saying "consider the source" ?
If the source has been wrong before, is of low quality, lacks credibility......
Court systems and law enforcement authorities use it all of the time.
Like I said......Common sense.
And what happened to your, don't shoot the messenger argument ?
Even though Guillot is the accuser......
Did I miss what you were saying there also ?

[Cannon shell]

What is it you don't understand?

Outriders are not racing officials. Are they required to report any wrongdoing? I'm not sure.

Even if they were...that doesn't mean all outriders will report wrongdoing. Perhaps there is a "thin green line" where outriders generally don't report on fellow riders. Kind of like the "thin blue line" among cops. I don't know...

The point is, just because someone is required to do something, often times, they won't...quite a few people take pride in not being "rats" to borrow from the vernacular of the mob.
I believe that in most jurisdictions the outriders are considered racing officials since the advent of the quick official. They absolutely would be required to report any wrong doing though who knows if they would prefer to look the other way and not get involved with an investigation.

[Cannon shell]

The blown up NBC video shown on TV yesterday clearly shows that there was nothing in the jockeys hands.

And tail swishing does not mean that a horse is getting plugged in, that is nonsense. A horse may swish his tail if he gets hit with a battery but fillies in heat and horses that dont like the whip or even to be touched will do that too.

I once claimed a horse at CD that had been racing in smaller tracks in the midwest including Michigan and when we got her back to the barn she was pretty back sore. We have this device which is an horse massager that is battery operated which is put around their girth with the battery pack going on top of the withers where the saddle would be and right below where a jock would "hit" a horse with a buzzer. Most horses didnt mind this machine even though it made a humming sound from the vibration. This particular horse went nuts when we put the machine on, I mean absolutely lost it. I have no doubt that she thought she was getting plugged in between the noise and vibration and was expecting the shock that obviously never came. I dropped her in class right off the bat and luckily someone claimed her. I dont believe she did much good after that.

[Stillriledup]

Have you ever heard the old saying "consider the source" ?
If the source has been wrong before, is of low quality, lacks credibility......
Court systems and law enforcement authorities use it all of the time.
Like I said......Common sense.
And what happened to your, don't shoot the messenger argument ?
Even though Guillot is the accuser......
Did I miss what you were saying there also ?

Why would the source matter if you already have the info? If the judges are intently watching Saez's hands and scouring the replays and checking his locker, they're either going to find a buzzer in his locker...or not. They are also going to find that he did or did not have a buzzer in his hand thru careful inspection of videotape. What does any of that investigation have to do with Guillot and his reputation?

If they found a buzzer in the guy's locker, are they going to say they didnt find anything because Guillot is an unlikeable guy?

[taxicab]

Why would the source matter if you already have the info? If the judges are intently watching Saez's hands and scouring the replays and checking his locker, they're either going to find a buzzer in his locker...or not. They are also going to find that he did or did not have a buzzer in his hand thru careful inspection of videotape. What does any of that investigation have to do with Guillot and his reputation?

If they found a buzzer in the guy's locker, are they going to say they didnt find anything because Guillot is an unlikeable guy?


I guess I'm going to have to spell this out for you.

My initial post in this thread was simply stating that the person ( Eric Guillot ) who filed the complaint with the authorities has a history of acting like a fool.
I was stating that anything he says should be taken with a grain of salt, due to the fact that he likes to hear himself talk.
It was quite clear in my post that's all I was saying.

But you Mr. Stillriledup highlighted my post and decided TO MAKE SOMETHING OUT OF NOTHING !

My post was just a simple statement, no different than many on this thread.
But you had nothing better to do than "stir it up".
If you're so lacking for things to do that you want to play games with other peoples words, that's fine.
Just do me a favor and play games with somebody else.

Thank You.
Greatly appreciated.

[Stillriledup]

I guess I'm going to have to spell this out for you.

My initial post in this thread was simply stating that the person ( Eric Guillot ) who filed the complaint with the authorities has a history of acting like a fool.
I was stating that anything he says should be taken with a grain of salt, due to the fact that he likes to hear himself talk.
It was quite clear in my post that's all I was saying.

But you Mr. Stillriledup highlighted my post and decided TO MAKE SOMETHING OUT OF NOTHING !

My post was just a simple statement, no different than many on this thread.
But you had nothing better to do than "stir it up".
If you're so lacking for things to do that you want to play games with other peoples words, that's fine.
Just do me a favor and play games with somebody else.

Thank You.
Greatly appreciated.

Sorry Cabber, didnt mean to come down hard on you, i apologize if i came across as harsh, that wasnt my intention.

I agree with you that Guillot isnt exactly the most well liked person on the backstretches of america, he does have a reputation, i'm not arguing with that.

His reputation could theoretically come into play if the judges decided to NOT investigate Saez under the grounds that the guy making the accusation is a blowhard. But, in my opinion, once they started investigating, i believe that the investigation can stand or fall strictly on the evidence and that Guillot being a blowhard isnt a factor once the judges start digging into the case. That's all i was saying.

No hard feelings? Can we still be pals?

[Robert Fischer]

Have some fun guys!,
we are witnessing another (albeit very small) piece of racing legend.

The technology of the slow-motion video footage seems to dispel the suspicions, which is good, but it also takes away some of the mystery. I don't know that people will be talking about this for years to come, but it's a footnote. Will Take CHARGE ;) wins the Travers by a nose over Moreno, and journeyman Saez accused of using the buzzer.

[taxicab]

Sorry Cabber, didnt mean to come down hard on you, i apologize if i came across as harsh, that wasnt my intention.

I agree with you that Guillot isnt exactly the most well liked person on the backstretches of america, he does have a reputation, i'm not arguing with that.

His reputation could theoretically come into play if the judges decided to NOT investigate Saez under the grounds that the guy making the accusation is a blowhard. But, in my opinion, once they started investigating, i believe that the investigation can stand or fall strictly on the evidence and that Guillot being a blowhard isnt a factor once the judges start digging into the case. That's all i was saying.

No hard feelings? Can we still be pals?



Not a problem.

[TurfRuler]

Heard any real news about Saginaw?

[PaceAdvantage]

Ok..
Now, let's hypothesize for a moment.
With all of the accusations and suspicions posters on here discuss as to their theories regarding the game and how those accusations and suspicions( betting after the start, PED's in the barns) and how those suspicions may adversely affect the introduction of new people to the game, in your opinion would it not be prudent for a racing jurisdiction to where practical any measures which would be used to protect the integrity of the sport? Things such as giving outriders authority to report suspicious activity?Outriders don't need authority to report something suspicious. You and I could report something suspicious and I suspect it would be taken about as seriously (as long as it wasn't something completely off the wall).

I would be surprised if the majority of outriders that see something suspicious actually report it...it's human nature...

Now, if it's an out of town jock, or a jock that everyone despises for some reason, that's a different story.

For the most part, I would think an outrider wouldn't rat out a local jock, but this is only my opinion of course. I could be dead wrong.

[PaceAdvantage]

watched it a few times more.
Definitely looks to be a handoff---Im just not sure why the other jockey would be in it...That's easy...he rode one of the losing Lukas horses...

[PaceAdvantage]

now that video ought to put this thing to rest. the part where he pulled his right hand off and still had his hand clenched when he brought it to his thigh and then back to his reins was the part on the full speed video that made it look very sketchy. But this video nullifies that for sure.Really? I thought that video looked even more suspicious than the original...maybe I need to watch it again...

[PaceAdvantage]

BTW, let us all not forget that buzzers are more common than probably most people think around racetracks across the country...

[Saratoga_Mike]

BTW, let us all not forget that buzzers are more common than probably most people think around racetracks across the country...

Really? What's the basis of this statement?

[PaceAdvantage]

Really? What's the basis of this statement?Personal knowledge.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Personal knowledge.

Interesting. I've spent a decent amount of time on the backstretches of two t'bred tracks and one harness track, and it certainly wasn't the case.

[PaceAdvantage]

Interesting. I've spent a decent amount of time on the backstretches of two t'bred tracks and one harness track, and it certainly wasn't the case.I also include in the discussion use of buzzers in the morning...

I'm not claiming it is WIDESPREAD...what I am claiming is that they are in use more than people might think.

[Robert Fischer]

I also include in the discussion use of buzzers in the morning...

I'm not claiming it is WIDESPREAD...what I am claiming is that they are in use more than people might think.

I agree with PA.

The buzzer is somewhat ingrained in the culture/ lore of racing.

It has a reputation of being a useful training tool.

[pele polo]

BTW, let us all not forget that buzzers are more common than probably most people think around racetracks across the country...

C'mon man, they're not even common at bush tracks where there are no rules.

[chadk66]

BTW, let us all not forget that buzzers are more common than probably most people think around racetracks across the country...yes they are. even more so on the QH tracks. hell they even like to use one on each side to keep em going straight.

[chadk66]

C'mon man, they're not even common at bush tracks where there are no rules.they for sure are. my brother has a horse that gallops great and does everything right. but when they try to breeze him it's like he's stuck in third gear and won't give you the other gear. we had a long discussion about it and I told him sometimes that's life, they just weren't born with the upper gear. but sometimes they have the gear but won't give it to you for numerous reasons. so before you quit on him get with your trainer and see if he can arrange for someone to give him a little help in the morning just to see if he has it or not. he was a little puzzled but asked the trainer. and trainer said sure we can arrange that. you just have to accept the fact it's there and it's used. and if used in the morning and used properly it's no big deal. hell they shock cattle, hogs, etc. every single day to get them to do what they want. it's really not much different than using spurs when riding a reining horse. inflicts about the same discomfort. it's not as big a deal as people assume it is. however, using it in a race is another story.

[thaskalos]

they for sure are. my brother has a horse that gallops great and does everything right. but when they try to breeze him it's like he's stuck in third gear and won't give you the other gear. we had a long discussion about it and I told him sometimes that's life, they just weren't born with the upper gear. but sometimes they have the gear but won't give it to you for numerous reasons. so before you quit on him get with your trainer and see if he can arrange for someone to give him a little help in the morning just to see if he has it or not. he was a little puzzled but asked the trainer. and trainer said sure we can arrange that. you just have to accept the fact it's there and it's used. and if used in the morning and used properly it's no big deal. hell they shock cattle, hogs, etc. every single day to get them to do what they want. it's really not much different than using spurs when riding a reining horse. inflicts about the same discomfort. it's not as big a deal as people assume it is. however, using it in a race is another story.
You say that "using it in a race is another story".

It seems to me that the RACE is where that "upper gear" would be most necessary.

[Stillriledup]

You say that "using it in a race is another story".

It seems to me that the RACE is where that "upper gear" would be most necessary.

Unless, Pavlov shows up and after some training in the morning with the real "machine" the jock just learns to mimic the sound and the horse, sort of, responds to the noise as well as knowing when its "coming"?

Maybe horses are not as smart as dogs and you can't train them this way, but it seemed to work in the movie Seabiscuit with the bell in the dark, so, i dont know, this is a question better answered by Chad or Cannon Shell.

[thaskalos]

Who was that guy who posted here not too long ago that it was common practice for trainers to give electric shocks to horses in the morning...and then, during the running of the race...the jockey would scrape a nail along the horse's neck...so he could mimic the effect of the electric shock and scare the horse into giving his best performance?

And to think that I didn't believe him...

What sweethearts some of these trainers are... :ThmbDown:

[Show Me the Wire]

Who was that guy who posted here not too long ago that it was common practice for trainers to give electric shocks to horses in the morning...and then, during the running of the race...the jockey would scrape a nail along the horse's neck...so he could mimic the effect of the electric shock and scare the horse into giving his best performance?

And to think that I didn't believe him...

What sweethearts some of these trainers are... :ThmbDown:

Not sure about a nail, but thumbtacks are more viable

[JustRalph]

after reading this thread, I would love to have a couple hours and a few beers with "Purple Power"

I would love to hear his take on this thread

[BetHorses!]

Curious if Saez name is cleared if he will sue Guillot....pretty damaging stuff although I saw a blown up video today and it really looks like he switched something from his hand

[bks]

To me, the blown-up video of Saez doesn't look great for him. At :39, the smallest two or three fingers on his right hand are clearly appear to be clutching something - only his pointer and thumb seem to be outstretched to retake the whip. It's not crystal clear, but his while hand is never completely open that I can see.

[Milkshaker]

I don't know about that as it may be pretty easy to prove that an owner or a trainer will not use this jockey because of this hanging over his head even if proven untrue.


Kindly tell how you would prove in court how Mr. Saez lost business because of this.

Mind you, I don't necessarily disagree with you that he might lose some business.

But what is he going to do, bring in affidavits from high profile trainers who no longer engage him that explicitly state "Mr. Saez we stopped using you on our horses because of this rumor that you stimulate horses with an electrical device."?

[Stillriledup]

Kindly tell how you would prove in court how Mr. Saez lost business because of this.

Mind you, I don't necessarily disagree with you that he might lose some business.

But what is he going to do, bring in affidavits from high profile trainers who no longer engage him that explicitly state "Mr. Saez we stopped using you on our horses because of this rumor that you stimulate horses with an electrical device."?

lol yep, owners normally kick jocks to the curb who make horses go really fast. Owners have proven that they have "morals" and won't ever stick with a jock or trainer who "makes em go fast".

Those owners only want to go fast if its honestly. :D

[chadk66]

You say that "using it in a race is another story".

It seems to me that the RACE is where that "upper gear" would be most necessary.yep. it's because you don't use them in races. alot of times in the morning you just have to show them they can do it. once shown they can do it they don't have a problem with it anymore. but it's not always the case, sometimes they don't have the ability and then you can send them home and make a pony out of them.

[chadk66]

To me, the blown-up video of Saez doesn't look great for him. At :39, the smallest two or three fingers on his right hand are clearly appear to be clutching something - only his pointer and thumb seem to be outstretched to retake the whip. It's not crystal clear, but his while hand is never completely open that I can see.that's how the whip is taken quite often, with just the thumb and pointer finger. they're used to hanging on to the reins with the other three fingers. it's just a habit you develop. they have extremely nimble hands/fingers. they can do stuff with them that would make the most seasoned porn star blush

[CryingForTheHorses]

they for sure are. my brother has a horse that gallops great and does everything right. but when they try to breeze him it's like he's stuck in third gear and won't give you the other gear. we had a long discussion about it and I told him sometimes that's life, they just weren't born with the upper gear. but sometimes they have the gear but won't give it to you for numerous reasons. so before you quit on him get with your trainer and see if he can arrange for someone to give him a little help in the morning just to see if he has it or not. he was a little puzzled but asked the trainer. and trainer said sure we can arrange that. you just have to accept the fact it's there and it's used. and if used in the morning and used properly it's no big deal. hell they shock cattle, hogs, etc. every single day to get them to do what they want. it's really not much different than using spurs when riding a reining horse. inflicts about the same discomfort. it's not as big a deal as people assume it is. however, using it in a race is another story.


Whoa Chad..Arent you a self proclaimed "Fine outstanding former trainer"..I resent the fact that now you are being a accessory to the fact of knowing and telling your brother to cheat!!..Not much different then using spurs...Bullsh.t..This is abuse of the animal.

[Stillriledup]

To me, the blown-up video of Saez doesn't look great for him. At :39, the smallest two or three fingers on his right hand are clearly appear to be clutching something - only his pointer and thumb seem to be outstretched to retake the whip. It's not crystal clear, but his while hand is never completely open that I can see.

I have the HD broadcast of the Travers show on my DVR and i watched Saez with eagle eyes (there were a lot of amazingly close and clear shots of him galloping out) and while i didnt actually see a machine, i didnt either see how it was possible he had one. If he had something in his hand, or under his saddle pad or somewhere else, it was a houdini like job of concealing. His hands make some "odd" movements, but at no time did it really appear he would have been able to hold the whip, reigns and do all the movements he did while holding a device.

[thespaah]

Donna isn't an outrider. She's a reporter on horseback.
No kidding...The guy with the red vest on the OTHER side of the race horse.
If you want to be a smart guy, find someone else.

[thespaah]

Sorry Cabber, didnt mean to come down hard on you, i apologize if i came across as harsh, that wasnt my intention.

I agree with you that Guillot isnt exactly the most well liked person on the backstretches of america, he does have a reputation, i'm not arguing with that.

His reputation could theoretically come into play if the judges decided to NOT investigate Saez under the grounds that the guy making the accusation is a blowhard. But, in my opinion, once they started investigating, i believe that the investigation can stand or fall strictly on the evidence and that Guillot being a blowhard isnt a factor once the judges start digging into the case. That's all i was saying.

No hard feelings? Can we still be pals?
Notwithstanding Guillot's reputation, the accusation should be given it's due diligence.
If Guillot is wrong, he should be punished in the same manner as a jockey would for lodging a 'frivolous' claim of foul.
I Googled the subject and came up with an article about a famous frivolous foul claim by Manny Ycaza in the 1962 Preakness.
He got 10 days. Then another 20 from the Md Racing Commission for other misdeeds.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1734&dat=19620522&id=Po4bAAAAIBAJ&sjid=XlEEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4906,4595584
Here is a CHRB rule...
http://www.chrb.ca.gov/query_rules_and_regulations_database.asp?form_quer y_action=display_rule&form_query_rule_number=1702&form_query_rule_title=Claim+of+Interference+or+Oth er+Foul.&form_query_article=Claim+of+Interference+or+Other+ Foul.&form_query_article_index=9&form_query_argument=1702
I think ALL license holders should have a schedule of disciplinary penalties against them for issues such as this claim by Guillot.

[cordep17]

Whoa Chad..Arent you a self proclaimed "Fine outstanding former trainer"..I resent the fact that now you are being a accessory to the fact of knowing and telling your brother to cheat!!..Not much different then using spurs...Bullsh.t..This is abuse of the animal.

Not speaking for Chad..

That is such bull.

[cordep17]

Notwithstanding Guillot's reputation, the accusation should be given it's due diligence.
If Guillot is wrong, he should be punished in the same manner as a jockey would for lodging a 'frivolous' claim of foul.

Based off of the opinions in this thread, we are far from unanimous in what might have happened.

Jocks claim fouls all the time. Stewards don't always change the ruling, and they don't always punish a jock.

Just because someone's lawsuit fails doesn't make it's frivolous.

[thespaah]

Based off of the opinions in this thread, we are far from unanimous in what might have happened.

Jocks claim fouls all the time. Stewards don't always change the ruling, and they don't always punish a jock.

Just because someone's lawsuit fails doesn't make it's frivolous.
I posted the CHRB rules regarding this.
The criteria for a claim to be frivolous is "knowingly"...
Of course the stewards or gaming board officials could make a subjective determination of whether or not Guillot's claim is in fact frivolous.

[Longshot6977]

I posted the CHRB rules regarding this.
The criteria for a claim to be frivolous is "knowingly"...
Of course the stewards or gaming board officials could make a subjective determination of whether or not Guillot's claim is in fact frivolous.

Not sure how it can be considered frivolous when even many here don't agree on what we see in the video. To some people, it appears he was holding something which would make the claim not frivolous. And of course the opposite is true.

[Stillriledup]

Whoa Chad..Arent you a self proclaimed "Fine outstanding former trainer"..I resent the fact that now you are being a accessory to the fact of knowing and telling your brother to cheat!!..Not much different then using spurs...Bullsh.t..This is abuse of the animal.

Oh cmon, he's not telling anyone to cheat.

[Cannon shell]

they for sure are. my brother has a horse that gallops great and does everything right. but when they try to breeze him it's like he's stuck in third gear and won't give you the other gear. we had a long discussion about it and I told him sometimes that's life, they just weren't born with the upper gear. but sometimes they have the gear but won't give it to you for numerous reasons. so before you quit on him get with your trainer and see if he can arrange for someone to give him a little help in the morning just to see if he has it or not. he was a little puzzled but asked the trainer. and trainer said sure we can arrange that. you just have to accept the fact it's there and it's used. and if used in the morning and used properly it's no big deal. hell they shock cattle, hogs, etc. every single day to get them to do what they want. it's really not much different than using spurs when riding a reining horse. inflicts about the same discomfort. it's not as big a deal as people assume it is. however, using it in a race is another story.
Seriously?

[Fager Fan]

I'm not seeing anything but Saez untying the knot in the reins.
When he was interviewed by Donna Barton on the return to the winner's circle, the video shows Saez fidgeting and the out rider looking directly at Saez's hand motions. If anything untoward been going on, the outrider would be required to to report what he saw.

Apologies. I read it as you saying Barton was the outrider, but I see differently now.

[Stillriledup]

Seriously?

Is that bettor or worse than shock wave therapy? A shock is a shock, right?

[Cannon shell]

Is that bettor or worse than shock wave therapy? A shock is a shock, right?
Please say this is an attempt at humor

[johnhannibalsmith]

Please say this is an attempt at humor

Sadly, it is doubtful.

[Zydeco]

Ok..have a question.....jock has a buzzer....on the gallop out he switches something from right hand to left hand....left hand looks like he tucks something under the saddle....trots back to winners circle to get pic taken......he pulls the saddle and tack off the horse to go get weighed......does the item fall on the ground or does he do another sleight of hand to slip it in his pocket? Or does the saddle have a pocket where he could have stashed it on the gallop out? Just wondering.

[Show Me the Wire]

Is that bettor or worse than shock wave therapy? A shock is a shock, right?


Actually shock wave therapy is worse, not due to the shock, but if it is used to numb the horse from feeling pain.

[TheEdge07]

Speaking of shock wave therapy..Druggie Oneal had Ill Have Another have shock wave therapy before the derby.. :rolleyes:

[Cannon shell]

Ok..have a question.....jock has a buzzer....on the gallop out he switches something from right hand to left hand....left hand looks like he tucks something under the saddle....trots back to winners circle to get pic taken......he pulls the saddle and tack off the horse to go get weighed......does the item fall on the ground or does he do another sleight of hand to slip it in his pocket? Or does the saddle have a pocket where he could have stashed it on the gallop out? Just wondering.
Pocket? Does he slip the secret buzzer into his invisible pocket?

[Cannon shell]

Actually shock wave therapy is worse, not due to the shock, but if it is used to numb the horse from feeling pain.
Oh boy...


So a legitimate physical therapy machine is worse than an illegal tool used to shock a horse during a race?

If used properly one is regulated and has legitimate use. The other is illegal at all times and is only used to cheat.

You make the call

[Cannon shell]

Speaking of shock wave therapy..Druggie Oneal had Ill Have Another have shock wave therapy before the derby.. :rolleyes:
Yeah more than a week before the race. It's 1-9 that he wasn't the only one.

[magwell]

Pocket? Does he slip the secret buzzer into his invisible pocket? They don't know ;) .....C.S. you have a lot of patience ......

[Robert Fischer]

.C.S. you have a lot of patience ......

I'm coming up blank on the quote that goes something along the lines of "let people who wish to be deceived stay deceived".

Again this goes back to the reality of the race itself. The first thing you look at(aside from maybe a hot-pink 'machine' clumsily weilded in full view of the camera as obvious evidence) = the first thing you look at is the reality of the race itself. In this case you had a horse Will Take Charge run basically his same race back from the Jim Dandy. You had WTC get a fantasy trip sitting mid pack behind a Grade 3 type of horse (Moreno), While Moreno got an uncontested jog on the front end because neither Verrazano or Palace Malice ran as expected.

The result (WTC winning), and the visual of a steady one-paced WTC running down the tiring Moreno in a dramatic fashion in the BIG RACE to win by an exciting nose, all created too much of an illusion for everyone to just see it for what it was.

There certainly was nothing in Will Take Charge's performance to make anyone think he ran an enhanced race. Maybe Saez cheated like crazy and the result was a perfectly predictable performance... Who knows, but those are the kind of performance that I want to see obvious proof before I worry much about it.


of course these know-it-all posts by me are probably not in the spirit of the quote.



this is human nature. I find these wanting-to-be-deceived dynamics frustrating, especially when the media causes these things. In horse racing it is frustrating, but over time, reality is paid for and rewarded. In most things in life there is no such reward.

[Show Me the Wire]

Cannon shell

My sentence is very clear. It was about the reason for the use.

[PaceAdvantage]

Ya'll who think this doesn't go on with regularity at tracks all across the country are being quite naive...

[TheEdge07]

Yeah more than a week before the race. It's 1-9 that he wasn't the only one.

He was the only horse derby week to have shock wave therapy..

[Cannon shell]

He was the only horse derby week to have shock wave therapy..
I believe if memory serves he had his final treatment 10 days or so out and this only was made public because of a CA rule which puts horses who receive shockwave treatments on the vets list because they arent allowed to enter for a certain period after getting treated. Being that other states dont process the paperwork in this manner I'm sure that you can't be certain about who else received treatments.

I suppose the positive spin about Ill Have Another's shockwave use is that at least O'Neill obeyed the rules in this case which seems to be an issue for him.

[Cannon shell]

They don't know ;) .....C.S. you have a lot of patience ......
lol or I'm just stupid enough to try

[Cannon shell]

Cannon shell

My sentence is very clear. It was about the reason for the use.
How do you know what the reason for use of a shockwave machine is?

You think that the clinics that have and use them as a course of treatment of any number of ailments and helping in the recovery of many injuries are using them as a pain masking agent?

The one thing that is very clear is that use of a buzzer is ALWAYS used for illicit purposes.

[Cannon shell]

Ya'll who think this doesn't go on with regularity at tracks all across the country are being quite naive...
I don't think this is really true anymore.

There was a big deal made of a buzzer being found in the jocks room of a pretty big east coast track a few months ago. Not publicly but the word gets out with the little people. Supposedly brought the FBI in though no one ever was nailed.

At a few other lesser tracks recently they have shaken a few jocks down in surprise checks. For whatever reason there has been an effort to prevent use in recent months though as far as I can tell nothing has ever been made public which makes the timing of this story ironic.

[Show Me the Wire]

Canno shell.

So you can guarantee every trainer uses shock wave therapy for legitimate reasons? Can you also guarantee that the listed horse leaving the backside for treatment is the actual animal?

[Show Me the Wire]

Okay Cannon shell my above post #179 is unfair as you can't guarantee the answers to the questions I asked.

What is shock wave therapy commonly used to heal? It is usually used to heal soft tissue damage and or stress fractures in the lower limbs.

A horses lower limb consists of bone, ligaments and tendons covered by skin. The horse does not have any muscle or nerve endings, for a good reason. Nature made sure a horse would not feel pain while foraging or walking through thorny bushes and such. So physiologically speaking the only soft tissue is the the skin, tendon and ligaments holding the bones together. The suspensory ligament is usually the target of treatment.

If you are medically treating either a stress fracture in a bone or treating a tear or rupture in the sheathing around the suspensory ligament wouldn't it be more advisable to rest the animal to let the fracture heal or let the sheathing mend, rather than race it seven to ten days later?

[Cannon shell]

Canno shell.

So you can guarantee every trainer uses shock wave therapy for legitimate reasons? Can you also guarantee that the listed horse leaving the backside for treatment is the actual animal?
I can guarantee that every buzzer used on a horse is for purposes of cheating.

I have been very vocal in many places about the poor job overall most racing commissions and tracks do of policing the game. There absolutely are people without morals and conscience that will do just about anything to make a buck or get an edge. There will never be 100% compliance with every rule and regulation regardless of who is in charge, what the penalties are, etc because there will never be enough money spent to make this so. That being said shockwave therapy is not in the same category as buzzers because they do have legitimate value and rules have been put into place regarding them. They are also pretty loud to use and require a setup that isnt easily hidden. I can't guarantee anything 100% in this game. Hell I wouldn't say that every horse I run is 100% guaranteed not to come back without a positive test simply because with the idiotic zero tolerance rules for therapeutic drug rules there remains a risk however slim that environmental contamination could get me a bad test. I'm pretty sure this has already happened to me a while back when a horse came up positive for a readily available and often used medication however one that we had no record of giving this particular horse nor was it a medication that we used very often. So no there is no guarantee that some nefarious trainer and vet aren't illegally treating horse with shockwave machines. However as I said before I can 100% guarantee that every jockey that plugs a horse in during a race is breaking the rules.

[brivolta]

I can guarantee that every buzzer used on a horse is for purposes of cheating.

I have been very vocal in many places about the poor job overall most racing commissions and tracks do of policing the game. There absolutely are people without morals and conscience that will do just about anything to make a buck or get an edge. There will never be 100% compliance with every rule and regulation regardless of who is in charge, what the penalties are, etc because there will never be enough money spent to make this so. That being said shockwave therapy is not in the same category as buzzers because they do have legitimate value and rules have been put into place regarding them. They are also pretty loud to use and require a setup that isnt easily hidden. I can't guarantee anything 100% in this game. Hell I wouldn't say that every horse I run is 100% guaranteed not to come back without a positive test simply because with the idiotic zero tolerance rules for therapeutic drug rules there remains a risk however slim that environmental contamination could get me a bad test. I'm pretty sure this has already happened to me a while back when a horse came up positive for a readily available and often used medication however one that we had no record of giving this particular horse nor was it a medication that we used very often. So no there is no guarantee that some nefarious trainer and vet aren't illegally treating horse with shockwave machines. However as I said before I can 100% guarantee that every jockey that plugs a horse in during a race is breaking the rules.

I just had this happen with a drug that our vet doesn't even carry. They wouldn't even tell us how much was in the result because "it doesn't matter. It's zero tolerance." Oh...ok.

[Robert Goren]

I don't think this is really true anymore.

There was a big deal made of a buzzer being found in the jocks room of a pretty big east coast track a few months ago. Not publicly but the word gets out with the little people. Supposedly brought the FBI in though no one ever was nailed.

At a few other lesser tracks recently they have shaken a few jocks down in surprise checks. For whatever reason there has been an effort to prevent use in recent months though as far as I can tell nothing has ever been made public which makes the timing of this story ironic.I agree with Pace. A trainer a long time ago taught me how tell if a buzzer was being used. I haven't seen any lessening of their use in 40 years. I see at NYRA tracks and I see at Fonner. I see it with stakes horses and I see with bottom claimers. If you don't see it, it is only because you don't know what to look for.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I agree with Pace. A trainer a long time ago taught me how tell if a buzzer was being used. I haven't seen any lessening of their use in 40 years. I see at NYRA tracks and I see at Fonner. I see it with stakes horses and I see with bottom claimers. If you don't see it, it is only because you don't know what to look for.

You're on a roll today Goren. Why? It's just a ridiculous claim. We used an electric fence for our horses to keep them from leaning over and breaking things down. They were all shocked by the fence on multiple occasions (so was I). You couldn't tell in a million years whether that happened or not by looking at them. No one should use a cattle prod on a horse, but you can't tell if that happened by looking at them in the paddock or on the track.

[brivolta]

I agree with Pace. A trainer a long time ago taught me how tell if a buzzer was being used. I haven't seen any lessening of their use in 40 years. I see at NYRA tracks and I see at Fonner. I see it with stakes horses and I see with bottom claimers. If you don't see it, it is only because you don't know what to look for.

It is definitely helpful that all horses react the same way when a buzzer is used. :rolleyes:

[Cannon shell]

Okay Cannon shell my above post #179 is unfair as you can't guarantee the answers to the questions I asked.

What is shock wave therapy commonly used to heal? It is usually used to heal soft tissue damage and or stress fractures in the lower limbs.

A horses lower limb consists of bone, ligaments and tendons covered by skin. The horse does not have any muscle or nerve endings, for a good reason. Nature made sure a horse would not feel pain while foraging or walking through thorny bushes and such. So physiologically speaking the only soft tissue is the the skin, tendon and ligaments holding the bones together. The suspensory ligament is usually the target of treatment.

If you are medically treating either a stress fracture in a bone or treating a tear or rupture in the sheathing around the suspensory ligament wouldn't it be more advisable to rest the animal to let the fracture heal or let the sheathing mend, rather than race it seven to ten days later?
There are a lot of gray area's in horses health areas because they cant tell us whats bothering them and the degree to which each horse has a tolerance for pain or even discomfort is different. Shockwave is used for a variety of issues however being that I'm not a practicing vet with a machine I cant tell you what other trainers are doing. Sore shins, suspensory ligaments, splints, curbs, knees, withers and backs are generally the most commonly treated area's in my experience.

Using 3 treatments a week apart has been proven effective for sore shins. I have heard of a lot of horses never having issues again after just one course. Many horses have chips in knee and ankle joints that can be effectively treated with SW. I have heard of it helping curbs but have not done that. It works great for splints. There is probably nothing better for a horse with a chronic sore back. As for people who would shock a horse with a stress fracture and run them 10 days later, the pain killing effect would wear off long before 10 days came around and it certainly couldnt help heal that area that quickly.

[Cannon shell]

I agree with Pace. A trainer a long time ago taught me how tell if a buzzer was being used. I haven't seen any lessening of their use in 40 years. I see at NYRA tracks and I see at Fonner. I see it with stakes horses and I see with bottom claimers. If you don't see it, it is only because you don't know what to look for.
Yeah sure you can.

Maybe they should just have you set up shop in the airport and tell homeland security who is packing too with your xray eyes

[Saratoga_Mike]

Yeah sure you can.

Maybe they should just have you set up shop in the airport and tell homeland security who is packing too with your xray eyes

Mr Goren has many tales...stick around

[thespaah]

I can guarantee that every buzzer used on a horse is for purposes of cheating.

I have been very vocal in many places about the poor job overall most racing commissions and tracks do of policing the game. There absolutely are people without morals and conscience that will do just about anything to make a buck or get an edge. There will never be 100% compliance with every rule and regulation regardless of who is in charge, what the penalties are, etc because there will never be enough money spent to make this so. That being said shockwave therapy is not in the same category as buzzers because they do have legitimate value and rules have been put into place regarding them. They are also pretty loud to use and require a setup that isnt easily hidden. I can't guarantee anything 100% in this game. Hell I wouldn't say that every horse I run is 100% guaranteed not to come back without a positive test simply because with the idiotic zero tolerance rules for therapeutic drug rules there remains a risk however slim that environmental contamination could get me a bad test. I'm pretty sure this has already happened to me a while back when a horse came up positive for a readily available and often used medication however one that we had no record of giving this particular horse nor was it a medication that we used very often. So no there is no guarantee that some nefarious trainer and vet aren't illegally treating horse with shockwave machines. However as I said before I can 100% guarantee that every jockey that plugs a horse in during a race is breaking the rules.
"environmental contamination".
"we had no record of".....
I am seeing a problem.
I must ask...Suppose you took care of these things. Prevented the contamination through normal safety procedures as well as kept accurate records, would the issues have not been avoided?

[Show Me the Wire]

"environmental contamination".
"we had no record of".....
I am seeing a problem.
I must ask...Suppose you took care of these things. Prevented the contamination through normal safety procedures as well as kept accurate records, would the issues have not been avoided?


Not if it comes to you unintentionally contaminated from the manufacturer or the supplier.

[wisconsin]

I agree with Pace. A trainer a long time ago taught me how tell if a buzzer was being used. I haven't seen any lessening of their use in 40 years. I see at NYRA tracks and I see at Fonner. I see it with stakes horses and I see with bottom claimers. If you don't see it, it is only because you don't know what to look for.


Ok, I'll bite. What should I be looking for?

[Cannon shell]

"environmental contamination".
"we had no record of".....
I am seeing a problem.
I must ask...Suppose you took care of these things. Prevented the contamination through normal safety procedures as well as kept accurate records, would the issues have not been avoided?

http://epubs.democratprinting.com/display_article.php?id=815813

You are seeing a problem because you seem to have the same xray eyes as buzzer man.

The medication in question was not given to the horse by myself or anyone on my staff and as I said was rarely used by us in the first place. Spotless records or me personally administering or overseeing all medications doesn't stop a horse from eating a piece of straw that another horse who was on that medication had infected via saliva or urine.

What if you went for a drug test and failed because you unfortunately inhaled smoke from jamacians smoking weed on the 4th floor at Aqueduct? Perhaps you dont even recall inhaling it because it always smells of weed there. You would be a victim of environmental contamination though you'd had dome nothing wrong or intentional. Of course this test for people wouldnt come back positive most likely because of the awareness of environmental contamination the levels for humans are much higher than horses. You know the famous pilots are allowed x amount of cocaine in their system which is far more than horses would be allowed?

[Cannon shell]

Ok, I'll bite. What should I be looking for?
Sparks

[thespaah]

Not if it comes to you unintentionally contaminated from the manufacturer or the supplier.
How often does a trainer receive tainted horse meds?
And if so, what is a typical contaminant?
Next, is the contaminant always the same thing? And is it always a banned substance?
Not making any conclusions here. Nor am I being accusatory in any way.
Not my intent at all.
Now, lets say for a moment you are in a capacity of a State investigator for PED's and other rules for race tracks.
And lets say oh, your office caught three trainers this week with their horses testing positive for PED's....
Your investigation of all three guys leads to the same thing. Each trainer claimed he knew nothing and the meds must have been contaminated by the manufacturer. Each of the trainer's alleged contaminate was a banned substance. You make out your report and issue a small fine.
One month later. The same three guys. Guess what? Yep, they had horses that tested hot....Your staff reports back to you that the same reason was used as the last time....
Ok, do you see where I am going here?
It gets to the point where one must step back and say "wait just a freaking minute. Something stinks here"...

[thespaah]

http://epubs.democratprinting.com/display_article.php?id=815813

You are seeing a problem because you seem to have the same xray eyes as buzzer man.

The medication in question was not given to the horse by myself or anyone on my staff and as I said was rarely used by us in the first place. Spotless records or me personally administering or overseeing all medications doesn't stop a horse from eating a piece of straw that another horse who was on that medication had infected via saliva or urine.

What if you went for a drug test and failed because you unfortunately inhaled smoke from jamacians smoking weed on the 4th floor at Aqueduct? Perhaps you dont even recall inhaling it because it always smells of weed there. You would be a victim of environmental contamination though you'd had dome nothing wrong or intentional. Of course this test for people wouldnt come back positive most likely because of the awareness of environmental contamination the levels for humans are much higher than horses. You know the famous pilots are allowed x amount of cocaine in their system which is far more than horses would be allowed?
That;s just it. I am not seeing a problem. I am merely asking questions based on my thinking that in order to stop the perception of wide spread drug use, the racing jurisdictions would be helping themselves immensely if they threw out doing things the old way and get tougher on the crooks and cheaters.
Yes, it's going to be a rough go. But the only ones who will suffer for it ARE the crooks and cheaters. The rest( the honest guys) will just be inconvenienced for a while. So what? Is it not worth that small amount of discomfort to know when it's all said and done, your business now has fewer rotten apples AND has a better public perception?

[Cannon shell]

How often does a trainer receive tainted horse meds?
And if so, what is a typical contaminant?
Next, is the contaminant always the same thing? And is it always a banned substance?
Not making any conclusions here. Nor am I being accusatory in any way.
Not my intent at all.
Now, lets say for a moment you are in a capacity of a State investigator for PED's and other rules for race tracks.
And lets say oh, your office caught three trainers this week with their horses testing positive for PED's....
Your investigation of all three guys leads to the same thing. Each trainer claimed he knew nothing and the meds must have been contaminated by the manufacturer. Each of the trainer's alleged contaminate was a banned substance. You make out your report and issue a small fine.
One month later. The same three guys. Guess what? Yep, they had horses that tested hot....Your staff reports back to you that the same reason was used as the last time....
Ok, do you see where I am going here?
It gets to the point where one must step back and say "wait just a freaking minute. Something stinks here"...


I'm laughing at the absurdity of a state investigator catching 3 trainers a month for PED's.

They probably catch at least 3 people a month smoking in the shedrow though.

[Robert Goren]

You're on a roll today Goren. Why? It's just a ridiculous claim. We used an electric fence for our horses to keep them from leaning over and breaking things down. They were all shocked by the fence on multiple occasions (so was I). You couldn't tell in a million years whether that happened or not by looking at them. No one should use a cattle prod on a horse, but you can't tell if that happened by looking at them in the paddock or on the track. I don't know what you are saying. I am saying I can tell when a horse is hit with a buzzer during a race I am watching. One more thing, a buzzer gives you a lot bigger jolt than a cattle prod or an electric fence. I have been touch by all three. None are any fun, but the buzzer was the least fun by quite a bit. Cowboy Jack Kaenel's dad hit me with one once. I was 19 at the time with my nose buried deep in the form and everybody had a good laugh at my expense. I grew up a farm so I had touched an electric fence more than once and been hit with cattle prod.

[Show Me the Wire]

I don't know what you are saying. I am saying I can tell when a horse is hit with a buzzer during a race I am watching. One more thing, a buzzer gives you a lot bigger jolt than a cattle prod or an electric fence. I have been touch by all three. None are any fun, but the buzzer was the least fun by quite a bit. Cowboy Jack Kaenel's dad hit me with one once. I was 19 at the time with my nose buried deep in the form and everybody had a good laugh at my expense. I grew up a farm so I had touched an electric fence more than once and been hit with cattle prod.


wow a machine with two batteries gave you a bigger shock than a cattle prod. Maybe you just weren't expecting it. Or did he plug you on your tongue?

[Saratoga_Mike]

I don't know what you are saying. I am saying I can tell when a horse is hit with a buzzer during a race I am watching. One more thing, a buzzer gives you a lot bigger jolt than a cattle prod or an electric fence. I have been touch by all three. None are any fun, but the buzzer was the least fun by quite a bit. Cowboy Jack Kaenel's dad hit me with one once. I was 19 at the time with my nose buried deep in the form and everybody had a good laugh at my expense. I grew up a farm so I had touched an electric fence more than once and been hit with cattle prod.

Yeah, I don't believe it. And a buzzer gives a bigger shock than a cattle prod or an electric fence? Are you kidding? If a buzzer was more powerful than an electric fence, a horse would not just accelerate - they would veer out or buck.

[Saratoga_Mike]

wow a machine with two batteries gave you a bigger shock than a cattle prod. Maybe you just weren't expecting it. Or did he plug you on your tongue?

..only in Nebraska

[Show Me the Wire]

..only in Nebraska


At one time I had a Nebraska bred in my barn. He would go nuts seeing two double a batteries and paid no mind to the cattle prod. :lol: :lol:

[Robert Goren]

wow a machine with two batteries gave you a bigger shock than a cattle prod. Maybe you just weren't expecting it.It is all in the way it is configured. A cattle prod and a buzzer both work the same way. Read book on electricity and you will learn how to make them. It been a while but I believe car coils work on the same principle. 12 volts are turned into thousands by them on some of the old cars.

[Saratoga_Mike]

It is all in the way it is configured. A cattle prod and a buzzer both work the same way. Read book on electricity and you will learn how to make them. It been a while but I believe car coils work on the same principle. 12 volts are turned into thousands by them on some of the old cars.

If you exposed a horse to a jolt greater than an electric fence in a race, it would most likely be disastrous. Good night Mr. Goren.

[Robert Goren]

Yeah, I don't believe it. And a buzzer gives a bigger shock than a cattle prod or an electric fence? Are you kidding? If a buzzer was more powerful than an electric fence, a horse would not just accelerate - they would veer out or buck. Obviously you have never been hit by one. Do it to a green two year old and see what happens. Even with veteran horses who have been buzzed many times I have been told you can never absolutely sure what they will do. Going through the inner rail has been known to happen.
All kidding aside, buzzers are pretty basic science. You should have learned it in about the ninth grade.

[chadk66]

Whoa Chad..Arent you a self proclaimed "Fine outstanding former trainer"..I resent the fact that now you are being a accessory to the fact of knowing and telling your brother to cheat!!..Not much different then using spurs...Bullsh.t..This is abuse of the animal.cheating? hahaha. In no way, shape or form is using that device one time in the morning cheating. Ever got shocked plugging in a light? I'm sure you have. It scared the shit out of you but it didn't hurt you. How come you aren't out in front of the loading chutes at the feed lots picketing because the cattle are being shocked to be loaded on the truck? Now if you tie the horse up and plug him into the wall socket then by all means that would be cruelty to animals. Now I supposed you'll want all ranchers/horsemen who use electric fences to be arrested:D

[chadk66]

I don't think this is really true anymore.

There was a big deal made of a buzzer being found in the jocks room of a pretty big east coast track a few months ago. Not publicly but the word gets out with the little people. Supposedly brought the FBI in though no one ever was nailed.

At a few other lesser tracks recently they have shaken a few jocks down in surprise checks. For whatever reason there has been an effort to prevent use in recent months though as far as I can tell nothing has ever been made public which makes the timing of this story ironic.you are living in a fantasy land. and for the record I have never used one on any of my horses. I never had a need for it. but believe me it's used fairly frequently. it's just the reality of it.

[chadk66]

I don't know what you are saying. I am saying I can tell when a horse is hit with a buzzer during a race I am watching. One more thing, a buzzer gives you a lot bigger jolt than a cattle prod or an electric fence. I have been touch by all three. None are any fun, but the buzzer was the least fun by quite a bit. Cowboy Jack Kaenel's dad hit me with one once. I was 19 at the time with my nose buried deep in the form and everybody had a good laugh at my expense. I grew up a farm so I had touched an electric fence more than once and been hit with cattle prod.I'm not sure what kind of buzzer you got hit with, but it must have been hooked up to the car battery:D they don't shock you as bad as a cattle prod I can assure you that. and they certainly don't shock as bad as a wire fence. especially if you piss on it.

[chadk66]

It is all in the way it is configured. A cattle prod and a buzzer both work the same way. Read book on electricity and you will learn how to make them. It been a while but I believe car coils work on the same principle. 12 volts are turned into thousands by them on some of the old cars.by capacitors. those will knock you on your ass

[johnhannibalsmith]

Ok, I'll bite. What should I be looking for?

Generally speaking, an atrocious ride that even a machine can't overcome.

[Cannon shell]

cheating? hahaha. In no way, shape or form is using that device one time in the morning cheating. Ever got shocked plugging in a light? I'm sure you have. It scared the shit out of you but it didn't hurt you. How come you aren't out in front of the loading chutes at the feed lots picketing because the cattle are being shocked to be loaded on the truck? Now if you tie the horse up and plug him into the wall socket then by all means that would be cruelty to animals. Now I supposed you'll want all ranchers/horsemen who use electric fences to be arrested:D
However we aren't talking about cattle. Using a electric device on a race horse is cheating, period.

[Cannon shell]

you are living in a fantasy land. and for the record I have never used one on any of my horses. I never had a need for it. but believe me it's used fairly frequently. it's just the reality of it.
You think so dude? I happened to be married to a jockey and quite privy to quite a bit of information. The idea that buzzzers are still widely used is nonsense.

[chadk66]

You think so dude? I happened to be married to a jockey and quite privy to quite a bit of information. The idea that buzzzers are still widely used is nonsense.I didn't say they were used by everybody or on every track. I'd bet your wife doesn't ride on every track in this country. they are probably not seen or heard on the top level tracks to amount to anything. but you don't have to travel far to find a good heaping. and who says it's the jocks using them in the morning? exercise riders are perfectly capable and the trainers that use them in the morning don't want a bunch of others knowing.

[rastajenk]

What's the point of using them in the morning? To get the animals used to it for p.m. use? I can't sit here and say it's never happened, but I don't see any reason for it to be a common occurrence.

[CryingForTheHorses]

they for sure are. my brother has a horse that gallops great and does everything right. but when they try to breeze him it's like he's stuck in third gear and won't give you the other gear. we had a long discussion about it and I told him sometimes that's life, they just weren't born with the upper gear. but sometimes they have the gear but won't give it to you for numerous reasons. so before you quit on him get with your trainer and see if he can arrange for someone to give him a little help in the morning just to see if he has it or not. he was a little puzzled but asked the trainer. and trainer said sure we can arrange that. you just have to accept the fact it's there and it's used. and if used in the morning and used properly it's no big deal. hell they shock cattle, hogs, etc. every single day to get them to do what they want. it's really not much different than using spurs when riding a reining horse. inflicts about the same discomfort. it's not as big a deal as people assume it is. however, using it in a race is another story.


Chad..Please reread you post here to tell me you didnt tell your brother to see if he could get some help!!....Just saying that to your brother tells me you are conspriring with him to do something to his horse to see if he can run faster..You may not want to hear it but you are talking about cheating..I myself am also married to a former jockey and the claims you make about buzzers dont add up!

[johnhannibalsmith]

What's the point of using them in the morning? To get the animals used to it for p.m. use? ...

That, and if you are a jock, simple and often desperate marketing of a bad skill set to equally poor, pathetic trainers.

[iceknight]

Yeah, I don't believe it. And a buzzer gives a bigger shock than a cattle prod or an electric fence? Are you kidding? If a buzzer was more powerful than an electric fence, a horse would not just accelerate - they would veer out or buck. I am not sure after reading up some info in old newspapers...but if that info was supplied by 'Racing Detectives".. then it is questionable though.

A buzzer, illegal in horse racing, is a battery-powered vibrator used to shock a horse. It produces about 3,000 volts, the same voltage in stun shields sometimes used to control prison inmates.

A buzzer, generally hidden in the palm of a jockey's hand, is used to give a horse a mild charge to run faster. Patin's buzzer was the size of a cigarette lighter. (source (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/horses/triple/derby/2003-05-11-santos.htm)

What I have been frustrated with this whole discussion is that not even ONE person who claims to be knowledgeable or has seen this being used, has posted a single picture/detailed specifications of these "mythical buzzers" being used at mythical downs.

Starting with Guillot's accusations, there has been no presentation of evidence. Prosecution files charges usually only on strong grounds and these guys think they can just accuse Saez because what they perceive in their opinion is "crooked movements". I really wish people were more thorough than just throwing accusations around.

[Longshot6977]

I agree with PA.

The buzzer is somewhat ingrained in the culture/ lore of racing.

It has a reputation of being a useful training tool.

I agree. And if they become common in the afternoon, they may have to add a new equipment designation in the form, kinda like blinkers on/blinkers off. It will be buzzer on/buzzer off or battery on/battery off, :D.

[magwell]

Jocks riding with a joint went out of fashion after Lonnie Ray got busted at Calder, especially at the major tracks.......;)

[Robert Goren]

I agree. And if they become common in the afternoon, they may have to add a new equipment designation in the form, kinda like blinkers on/blinkers off. It will be buzzer on/buzzer off or battery on/battery off, :D. I have often thought the out to include in the horse's notes something like : Buzzed to no avail:lol:

[Mineshaft]

You think so dude? I happened to be married to a jockey and quite privy to quite a bit of information. The idea that buzzzers are still widely used is nonsense.



You my friend are living in a fantasy world. Buzzers ate still being used alot at the smaller tracks. And i would say every now and then they are being used at bigger tracks. And chad is correct they are being used in the mornings in training.

[Mineshaft]

Ya'll who think this doesn't go on with regularity at tracks all across the country are being quite naive...




Agree 100% especially at the smaller tracks.

[Cannon shell]

You my friend are living in a fantasy world. Buzzers ate still being used alot at the smaller tracks. And i would say every now and then they are being used at bigger tracks. And chad is correct they are being used in the mornings in training.
Yeah the fantasy land of actual backstretches. I didn't say that it never happened but only that it isnt a regular occurrence.

[chadk66]

Chad..Please reread you post here to tell me you didnt tell your brother to see if he could get some help!!....Just saying that to your brother tells me you are conspriring with him to do something to his horse to see if he can run faster..You may not want to hear it but you are talking about cheating..I myself am also married to a former jockey and the claims you make about buzzers dont add up!your certainly entitled to your opinion. If I was married to a jockey I'd try to sell that to everybody also. I don't blame you a bit.

[magwell]

Yeah the fantasy land of actual backstretches. I didn't say that it never happened but only that it isnt a regular occurrence. C.S. they just don't get it ... there is nothing we say will make them understand the game from the backside,that's just the way it is ....

[chadk66]

I have a very good friend of mine that is a track superintendent at a sizeable track. I discussed this with him and he told me they find several a month laying in the track surface. He has no idea how many they don't find. What he doesn't know is how many are dropped in the morning verses dropping them during races. I would suspect most if not near all are dropped in the morning because they are used far more often in the morning than the afternoon.

[Mineshaft]

[QUOTE=Cannon shell]Yeah the fantasy land of actual backstretches. I didn't say that it never happened but only that it isnt a regular occurrence.[/QUO




Like i said your living in a fantasy land if you dont think it happens regularly. I could tell you stories that would make your head spin. Keep drinking the kool aid.

[chadk66]

C.S. they just don't get it ... there is nothing we say will make them understand the game from the backside,that's just the way it is ....I spent every day for eight years on the backside of numerous tracks in this country. I have a pretty good handle on what happens back there. that's why I chose to leave the sport and raise my kids in a solid home and in a good school. Someday I'll return when I can do it "in my retirement".

[Beachbabe]

I have a very good friend of mine that is a track superintendent at a sizeable track. I discussed this with him and he told me they find several a month laying in the track surface. He has no idea how many they don't find. What he doesn't know is how many are dropped in the morning verses dropping them during races. I would suspect most if not near all are dropped in the morning because they are used far more often in the morning than the afternoon.

And all this time I thought the "b" after the time of the work meant "breezing".

[chadk66]

And all this time I thought the "b" after the time of the work meant "breezing".haha now the whole damn world knows;). No wonder the handicappers can never get the works put together with the wins. It's bassackwards

[Cannon shell]

your certainly entitled to your opinion. If I was married to a jockey I'd try to sell that to everybody also. I don't blame you a bit.
I'm not trying to sell anything to anyone. Hell 1/2 the things people believe about racing isnt true, why should this be any different?

[Cannon shell]

[QUOTE=Cannon shell]Yeah the fantasy land of actual backstretches. I didn't say that it never happened but only that it isnt a regular occurrence.[/QUO




Like i said your living in a fantasy land if you dont think it happens regularly. I could tell you stories that would make your head spin. Keep drinking the kool aid.
I love it when people are so adamant about things that can never be proven.

[chadk66]

I'm not trying to sell anything to anyone. Hell 1/2 the things people believe about racing isnt true, why should this be any different?ok your right. all that talk about trainers using illegal medications is just that talk. I can't believe the public falls for all that gossip.

[Cannon shell]

I spent every day for eight years on the backside of numerous tracks in this country. I have a pretty good handle on what happens back there. that's why I chose to leave the sport and raise my kids in a solid home and in a good school. Someday I'll return when I can do it "in my retirement".
So how is it that you know so much about what is going on now?

[magwell]

I spent every day for eight years on the backside of numerous tracks in this country. I have a pretty good handle on what happens back there. that's why I chose to leave the sport and raise my kids in a solid home and in a good school. Someday I'll return when I can do it "in my retirement". My man I probably spent more than 8 years just having coffee in a track kitchen :rolleyes:

[Cannon shell]

ok your right. all that talk about trainers using illegal medications is just that talk. I can't believe the public falls for all that gossip.
Yeah Ramon Moya is just a training savant. Carlos Guerrero has a magic ice machine. Oscar Barrera was an illusion. Pat Byrne won 14 in a row using hay, Oats and water. Noel Hickey didn't really get 100 positives for using a nebulizer with albuterol before virtually every race. Kurt Zaide just works harder than every one else. Scooter Davis just read the condition book better than everyone else....

[nijinski]

I think it would take a very unstable person to try a buzzer in NY these
days . Especially on Travers day . I still don't buy it I think nothing will be proven .
Lukas had his horse ready and I'd like to see the credit go to him and the horse where it belongs !

[Cannon shell]

So much of what you hear about machines is bullshit. There was a horse that ran in the Derby several years back that had a jockey change for the race because the trainer cooked up a story about the horse needing to be plugged in and if the owner came up with 10k he had a pretty famous jock (who wasnt that famous at the time) who would do it. The horse got hot and dirty, the trainer and agent split up 10k and the owner still thinks it was worth the 10k to take a shot.

Also funny that a lot of time the "machine guys" who have the rep for plugging one in are the same guys who are winning 7%. They bullshit the trainers/owners into thinking they will light one up. Of course who really knows other than Robert Goren if the jock actually did anything especially since most horses that trainers feel "need" a buzzer usually just need a vacation or a different trainer.

[Mineshaft]

Yall keep drinking the kool aid.

[thespaah]

So. Has anyone heard anything additional on the Travers battery investigation?

[Cannon shell]

Yall keep drinking the kool aid.
I call last word

[Cannon shell]

So. Has anyone heard anything additional on the Travers battery investigation?
Yeah Mineshaft and Robert Goren are being called in by guillot to testify as expert witnesses.

[magwell]

Yeah Mineshaft and Robert Goren are being called in by guillot to testify as expert witnesses. Classic :lol:

[Stillriledup]

So. Has anyone heard anything additional on the Travers battery investigation?

Yes, there's this big rug and this big broom......

[iceknight]

You my friend are living in a fantasy world. Buzzers ate still being used alot at the smaller tracks. And i would say every now and then they are being used at bigger tracks. And chad is correct they are being used in the mornings in training. Based on several races that I see from small tracks, it seems to me that jockeys purposely dont try hard or let others pass.. does nt like some joc using a buzzer to make their horse go faster..

And for all this chatter about buzzers... can ANYONE Of you actually post a pic or two of these buzzers.

When I search for "horse racing buzzer or buzzer used to train horses" I get all sorts of odd results though...

including this:

http://betfairhollywoodpark.com/news/horse-owners-bryant-gasol-on-wrong-end-of-buzzer-beater


Anyhow.. I don't know who Fredric Donner is... but his attitude is quite sad:

http://books.google.com/books?id=jTuRMsaLLfAC&dq=buzzer+used+in+training+horses&q=buzzer#v=snippet&q=buzzer&f=false


"people cheat, get over it" - is his advice. However, to cut this unknown person some slack, I should add that he says that in a handicapping book and this may not be his view in the grand scheme of things.

[Show Me the Wire]

iceknight

Try this site and use your imagination.


http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=two+battery+electric+buzzer&qpvt=two+battery+electric+buzzer&FORM=IGRE

or try this search on Bing two battery electric buzzer.

[PaceAdvantage]

C.S. they just don't get it ... there is nothing we say will make them understand the game from the backside,that's just the way it is ....Where do you think I get these ideas in my head from? The local OTB? My handicapping program?

Stop acting so high and mighty. You aren't the only one on here who has ever walked a backside or known people in or worked in the industry...

[Robert Goren]

iceknight

Try this site and use your imagination.


http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=two+battery+electric+buzzer&qpvt=two+battery+electric+buzzer&FORM=IGRE

or try this search on Bing two battery electric buzzer.I looked over that collection. I didn't see anything that looked like what I got hit with. I suspect there more than one type of them and they may been improved since Dale hit with that thing. It had 9 volt battery as its power source. It was obviously homemade.
Knowing that a horse was buzzed after the fact is of very limited use for a handicapper. For a while I kept a record to see if a horse who had been buzzed was buzzed again in it next race. The answer was no. But that was a long time ago and they are more brazen these days. Obviously I have no way of knowing that a horse is going to be buzz ahead of time. Even the days of my youth when I knew some backstretch people, they never shared that with me. They were pretty tight lipped about that.

[Mineshaft]

Yeah Mineshaft and Robert Goren are being called in by guillot to testify as expert witnesses.




I never said saez rode with a buzzer. I said buzzers are very common at the smaller tracks.

[iceknight]

iceknight

Try this site and use your imagination.


http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=two+battery+electric+buzzer&qpvt=two+battery+electric+buzzer&FORM=IGRE

or try this search on Bing two battery electric buzzer. I saw this.. and there is also a product called YES RACING Buzzer.. but that is just a brand name. it is a 3V blinking buzzer to be used in toys.. but I guess with the right capacitors 300-3000V could be built. That would be animal cruelty and I would never advocate that to enhance performances and anybody caught using this (in training or racing) needs to be banned and placed on probation to be away from racehorses. ie served a racehorse restraining order.

[Longshot6977]

And for all this chatter about buzzers... can ANYONE Of you actually post a pic or two of these buzzers.

Billy Patin's