If You Were A General Manager @ a Racetrack

[chrisforbes]

If you were a general manager at a track and given a small budget to try to improve the product and to try bring and keep the casual fan coming back to the track, what would you do?

On thing I hate is a track charging you to get in and a taking on a parking fee as well

I'd love to read some feedback on this and maybe I'll pass some along to people at the track I work at.

Speaking of that, if anybody on here goes to Parx on the weekends or plan on going on Labor Day or for the PA Derby, please pm me. I work there and would love to meet up and talk a bit, yeah while I am at work ha ha

chris forbes

[cj]

For the most part, people are not coming back to the track. It doesn't matter what you do or try. The world has changed. People can enjoy racing from their living room and not pay once cent extra above the cost of a bet.

If you want to get people to bet your product, that is a different story. But attendance? That ship has sailed for most tracks.

[Edward DeVere]

Clean and paint, clean and paint, clean and paint.

And establish a shaded picnic-&-play area, a la Delaware. Most race tracks now have plenty of unused space.

I could cry when I think of what could be done at a place like Laurel Park, especially with Stronach's pocket change.

[Tom]

Going to a track is so passe.
There is nothing a track could offer me to make it worth going.
I consider a day at a track wasted.

[TheEdge07]

For the most part, people are not coming back to the track. It doesn't matter what you do or try. The world has changed. People can enjoy racing from their living room and not pay once cent extra above the cost of a bet.

If you want to get people to bet your product, that is a different story. But attendance? That ship has sailed for most tracks.

CJ i never understood why not change post time...Racing is during work hrs..A later post?

[chadk66]

the industry went south when they lost site of the pagentry of the sport. you have make it a family event that they don't want to miss. free parking, free admission. throw free picnics for families. barn tours for the public so they can see the horses up close and personal. get jockeys to do autograph sessions where the free picnics are being done. make the kids think this sport is the bomb. set up a practice horse like the jocks have in a play area for the kids so they can "win the derby" on the damn thing. Put on nice, low priced buffets that start right when church gets out on sundays so families can go there for the buffet and stay for the races. your only limited to your imagination. doing stuff to attract handicappers is a losing deal because there aren't that many to begin with and most bet via the internet now days anyway. but you have to develop bettors via the young people.

[wiffleball whizz]

CJ i never understood why not change post time...Racing is during work hrs..A later post?

Well to answer your question I live 15 min from laurel and I work 10-6.....Monday-Friday.....I can only go 1 out of 4 racing days they don't race on Sunday.....so I can't go 3/4 days....I'm not the only one here

So yes a later post could only help that

But make sure they cater to the $3 bettors in the daytime

Your idea makes too much sense :ThmbUp:

[kinznk]

I would make more two turn races. I think casual patrons like the excitement of the starting gate and the finish. Or at least I like the excitement of the gate and the finish. 6 F races that start a half a mile away lose some luster.

[cj]

CJ i never understood why not change post time...Racing is during work hrs..A later post?

I've never really understood that either, but it isn't like night tracks are flourishing either. They draw some pretty big crowds at Remington here, but nobody bets.

[wiffleball whizz]

the industry went south when they lost site of the pagentry of the sport. you have make it a family event that they don't want to miss. free parking, free admission. throw free picnics for families. barn tours for the public so they can see the horses up close and personal. get jockeys to do autograph sessions where the free picnics are being done. make the kids think this sport is the bomb. set up a practice horse like the jocks have in a play area for the kids so they can "win the derby" on the damn thing. Put on nice, low priced buffets that start right when church gets out on sundays so families can go there for the buffet and stay for the races. your only limited to your imagination. doing stuff to attract handicappers is a losing deal because there aren't that many to begin with and most bet via the internet now days anyway. but you have to develop bettors via the young people.

Casinos buried the racetrack....

And drugs like everybody claims is about 1 percent why people don't go to the track.......

Racing is dead

[nijinski]

the industry went south when they lost site of the pagentry of the sport. you have make it a family event that they don't want to miss. free parking, free admission. throw free picnics for families. barn tours for the public so they can see the horses up close and personal. get jockeys to do autograph sessions where the free picnics are being done. make the kids think this sport is the bomb. set up a practice horse like the jocks have in a play area for the kids so they can "win the derby" on the damn thing. Put on nice, low priced buffets that start right when church gets out on sundays so families can go there for the buffet and stay for the races. your only limited to your imagination. doing stuff to attract handicappers is a losing deal because there aren't that many to begin with and most bet via the internet now days anyway. but you have to develop bettors via the young people.

Speaking of family , I saw a photo of two kids with Lukas after the Travers
in the winners circle . I heard he has done this before . They were chose random. He also always had a welcome and friendly barn to visitors.

All horse people should make efforts like that.

I hope those two boys in flip flops become life long fans and bring along their friends .

[cmp92]

Speaking of family , I saw a photo of two kids with Lukas after the Travers
in the winners circle . I heard he has done this before . They were chose random. He also always had a welcome and friendly barn to visitors.

All horse people should make efforts like that.

I hope those two boys in flip flops become life long fans and bring along their friends .
I've brought my friends along many times to racetracks. However, they seem overwhelmed by the racing forms, the language, the toteboard, pool sizes, bets, etc. They would much rather press buttons at the slots which appears to be more simple than betting on horses.

[Jeff P]

Message to track management and horsemen:

Racing isn't about pageantry. It's about something called GAMBLING.

Hint: You are in the business of selling exacta tickets. (You are not - repeat not - in the entertainment business.)

Open your eyes. Where has the crowd gone? (Not guys like me who are hard core horseplayers betting horses in a serious way... but people who are looking to get their GAMBLING itch scratched and at the same time have a little fun... You know, the crowd that USED to show up at the track and fill the grandstand whenever you opened the doors?)

That crowd hasn't disappeared. FYI the percentage of them per capita is about the same today as it always was. FYI, because of a little something called population growth their numbers are at an all time high.

Where are they? (And where do they go to get their GAMBLING itch scratched?)

You'll find them at the casino.

Why?

No way to sugar coat it...

IT'S THE TAKEOUT STUPID.
The average payback for each $1.00 bet into a slot machine is about 92-93 cents. Last time I checked, in Las Vegas the number was between 94 and 95 cents.

But put another way: The avg "vig" or "takeout" nationally for slot machine play is approximately 7% to 8%.

Now compare that to racing's blended takeout of about 22%. (If you don't think that takeout plays a major role in driving your customers to the competition you are living in denial.)

IT'S ABOUT INTEGRITY STUPID.
Go to Las Vegas. Walk into any casino and LOOK UP. Those funny looking bubbles mounted in the ceiling? Security cameras. Take a few minutes and Google the statutes on cheating. (Hint: You don't want to get caught cheating in a casino.) Think JAIL TIME and a criminal record.

As a result, the betting public (the crowd you want at the track) accepts at face value that the games in a casino are run on the up and up from an integrity standpoint.

Umm... Racing doesn't enjoy that.

Because of odds that change after the bell and failure to deal harshly with those caught cheating through the use of drugs: The betting public (the crowd you want at the track) has little or no faith that horse racing is run on the up and up from an integrity of the game standpoint.

I know, many of you with racing related jobs will disagree with that...

You'll say instead say that "Racing has a perception problem."

Trouble is, the betting public (the crowd you want at your track) isn't buying it - and hasn't been buying it for the longest time.

They are staying away and getting their gambling itched scratched at the casino.

Want the betting public to show up on track again?

It's certainly doable. But you've got your work cut out for you.

The three elephants sitting in your living room?

1. Takeout.

2. Odds that change after the bell.

3. Drugs.

Until or unless you take the big three on in a serious way, expect to continue losing market share to your competitors.




-jp

.

[Phantombridgejumpe]

I'm sure there is stuff going on behind the scenes, but hard for the fan to see.

Clearly the casino action is valued over the racing. There is a separate building for the casino AND half the racing building is for cards and other forms of gambling.

My ideas...

1) Lower takeout, at least to a competitive level

2) Improve simulcast product - Keith Jones is fine, but
there is nothing special about the signal or the coverage.
Every race looks and feels the same

3) Make Mondays and Tuesdays your feature days - other
than Labor Day you don't compare with the big boys, so don't
compete against them. Every Tuesday card should have a
100K race. You would attract more name jockeys and respect

4) Advertise in NJ more. I'm one hour away and NEVER see
coverage, commercials or one word in the local papers

5) Resurface the track, having the best path to be 30 feet off the
rail is just strange

6) Either take one month off or run a month of harness

Just top of my head stuff.

[Dave Schwartz]

For the most part, people are not coming back to the track. It doesn't matter what you do or try. The world has changed. People can enjoy racing from their living room and not pay once cent extra above the cost of a bet.

If you want to get people to bet your product, that is a different story. But attendance? That ship has sailed for most tracks.

Gotta agree with CJ on this one. His quote is perfect: "That ship has sailed."

But, to address the original question: "What would I do with a limited budget?"

1. I would budget some small amount of money to hire a handful of people to coach them on what is wrong.

Examples would be CJ, Jeff Platt, me, and a few other somewhat known and respected people who are advocates of the customer.

2. I would listen to their side of the story, and TRY to implement as many of their suggestions as possible.

3. I would absolutely stand up to the horsemen who are running the show with an attitude that says, "I am going to get paid first and at call costs, even if the track makes nothing and the customer is short-changed." If you want to make the horsemen partners in the profit, fine.

Of course, #3 may well take us out of the low-budget arena, because they will not allow the tracks to get THAT manure back into the horse.

[chadk66]

that's also a major contributor. Happened at cby for years with the casino four miles down the road. now that they teamed with the casino and have higher purses and aggressive promoting the attendance is way up I understand.

[cordep17]

I caught an episode of "The Profit" the other day.

He is a financial and business whizz that buys a share of someone's business in exchange for him setting it up nicely and making key changes.

I found it really interesting.
You guys should check it out.

It seems he could do wonders making Fairmount more appealing.

[chadk66]

yes Lukas has been great in that regard. In the early years at Cby they had a double decker bus they drove around in the backside with fans getting a close look. At the time I was training for one of the owners of the track and I told him we should take it one step further and bring them into my barn and I can answer questions and let them see the horses, etc. It was a huge success and the industry got some new owners and the I got some good friends from the deal. It was great for the fans.

[chadk66]

I don't agree with this for the majority of the tracks. The ten guys like you at a modest size track isn't going to keep the doors open there. There aren't enough of you. The two dollar better are what keeps the tracks going. And I don't think the take out makes an ounce of difference. If you could quiz every person at the track I'd bet five couldn't tell you what the take out is. Only ones that could are guys like you, which as I indicated are few and far between.

[Stillriledup]

Jeff P "unloaded" that was awesome, couldnt have said it better myself!

As President, CEO and actual OWNER of "SRU Downs" (for those of you who dont know, SRU downs is a mythical racetrack which i run, that does right by the player, we are a player friend place, we treat you with respect and we pay winners, unlike some other places i could name) i have a few things to add.

Since Chris is from Parx and its likely she's going to cut and paste this thread to the higher ups at that place, i'll address Parx and what "they" could do better.

Parxes biggest problem, and its obvious, is the perception that they don't have any integrity. Sure, their takeout rates are very high, but when you see trainers who get their licenses out of cracker jack boxes (Newbie Trainer) and that newbie comes in and basically makes training look so easy a 5 year old could do it, well, you have a perception problem at the very least.

Jeffrey P is right, Las Vegas doesnt play around, if you get caught cheating in a casino, you're not getting a 60 day suspension, a 2,500 dollar fine and get to sip on Pina Coladas on Manhattan Beach while waiting to come back refreshed and ready to go. If you cheat in Vegas, its pretty likely you're going to get kicked out of the casino's for life. One strike and you're out.

Now, i know that this is more of a racing industry problem and not a Parx specific problem, but, you know, you have to start somewhere.

Some people have thrown around the term "natl commissioner' but the problem as to why that could never happen is that racetracks are not part of a "league' they're all acting as their own entity. They just happen to have racehorses in common and that's why people get confused. People think that because all tracks have horses, they must all be under one "umbrella" but they only umbrella they are all under is that they all have licenses to accept bets from people. That's where the similarities end.

Tracks that have slots machines, like Parx, care about the slot machines. All these slots tracks are counting down the days until someone in their state govt says "you can get rid of the horse track and keep the slots".

[craigbraddick]

To some degree this reminds me of a thread I once saw on a political forum called: "If I were Prime Minister, I would..."

Not every racetrack can change their takeout or the times they race because of statutes in the state racing law. Often these rules are very old and are slanted in some places to be favorable to Harness Racing and in other areas to be favorable to Thoroughbred Racing. To change that is not an overnight process.

The budget is not there for many tracks to hire consultants (regardless of their reputation) however, that does not mean there are not innovative people at tracks working very hard to make a difference.

I (gladly) take on may other responsibilities besides calling races (not only because I want a job) but I want to see the sport grow and that is one reason I often come to this board for advice.

At TDN have combined many of our casino events with live racing on the front apron, live music, cook-outs, meet the jockeys, a play area, a picnic area, I do free barn tours, and we have a refurbished wagering area. Although our signal is not going anywhere (because of a horsemens dispute which I cannot discuss here) our live handle is up 7% on the year and over the winter, I hope to be working on player development to make life better for our regular players and to nurture interest in the sport.

I strongly agree with the poster that the racing program is overwhelming. The old fashioned 4X9's need to come back or a one page tipsheet with friendly comments and pre-made bets for the casual fan.

In these austere times, racing should be marketed to the non-initiated as the cheapest day out in professional sports and one where you can make some money too! To the fan already there, we need to ensure they have everything they need to play the tracks they want too in a comfortable and welcoming environment.

Just a note: This is just my view. Not necessarily the view of ThistleDown Racino or its owners.

Craig.

[Robert Goren]

I caught an episode of "The Profit" the other day.

He is a financial and business whizz that buys a share of someone's business in exchange for him setting it up nicely and making key changes.

I found it really interesting.
You guys should check it out.

It seems he could do wonders making Fairmount more appealing.Interesting you mention "The Profit". The one thing he does is make the storefront more attractive. I think most tracks are pretty run down, at least the ones I have been to are.
Casinos have all but killed racing. There are racing worst enemy. Having anything to do with them is a really, really awful idea.

[davew]

make it 'family friendly' on weekends
pony rides for kids, photo op with jockeys, family meal deals, hay rides around back stretch

make fridays party night - live band and cheap booze after races


it is not all about gambling, some like the pagentry, colors and sound

[Dave Schwartz]

Craig,

I really wish I could bet TDN. It is one of my most profitable tracks.

Unfortunately, they are off my ADW's board.


Dave

[ElKabong]

For the most part, people are not coming back to the track. It doesn't matter what you do or try. The world has changed. People can enjoy racing from their living room and not pay once cent extra above the cost of a bet.

If you want to get people to bet your product, that is a different story. But attendance? That ship has sailed for most tracks.

Go to Evangeline Downs next season, try it out. The atmosphere there is unique among tracks I've been to. Family atmosphere, people are there for a good time and to bet a horse or two. To stay home and couped up in a 15x18 room watching a tote board isn't on their agenda.

If the old NTRA wanted a model to create new racing fans and bettors, they should have gone to Carencro with a pen and paper, and then to the new EVD in Opelousas when it moved / opened in 2005. Those people know horses, racing is in the culture, and it's at least partially possible b/c the entire family is involved.

Also helping is the low prices for food and drink ( & no admission charge or parking b/c it's a racino). For $4 you can buy a burger, right off the outdoor grill on the patio, a bag of chips and a can of soda....$4 for the entire meal........If you want to buy a coke in the grandstand, you pay $2, free refills

New people into racing need to be at the track. Lot to be learned there. I would guess you'd disagree, but the things you learn, as a beginner, about the business and sport of racing can best be found at the track. And as people in southern La have shown the track is a desirable place to be if done right by management for experienced handicappers as well

[cj]

Go to Evangeline Downs next season, try it out. The atmosphere there is unique among tracks I've been to. Family atmosphere, people are there for a good time and to bet a horse or two. To stay home and couped up in a 15x18 room watching a tote board isn't on their agenda.



I have been. It is similar to Remington in that regard. But, and I say this genuinely, what good is recruiting a bunch of fans that don't bet? Yes, it is better than nothing, but if you are getting a bunch of fans to the track and not teaching them the sport and how to handicap and bet, you are wasting a great opportunity.

[cj]

Not every racetrack can change their takeout or the times they race because of statutes in the state racing law. Often these rules are very old and are slanted in some places to be favorable to Harness Racing and in other areas to be favorable to Thoroughbred Racing. To change that is not an overnight process.


This is true, but nothing changes until somebody tries to make changes. How many years have we heard this excuse? No, it isn't an overnight process, but it can be done. When is somebody going to start?

[wiffleball whizz]

I look at racing at the nfl......the product is so good on tv that you don't wanna go watch games live on Sunday....

If your standing outside the racetrack you don't even see the race....

I've had rutgers seasons tickets in football but never went cuz I love watcing 22 games at once....

Only we appreciate horse racing....no new fans coming and those that come don't bet

[RXB]

Horse racing will never thrive without decent on-track attendance, no matter if the takeout is decreased or the drug testing is made more effective or whatever. Ain't gonna happen. You stage an event in front of a big empty grandstand, forget it. Absolute buzzkill. No chance of attracting enough new owners/fans/players to keep the game going.

[Stillriledup]

Horse racing will never thrive without decent on-track attendance, no matter if the takeout is decreased or the drug testing is made more effective or whatever. Ain't gonna happen. You stage an event in front of a big empty grandstand, forget it. Absolute buzzkill. No chance of attracting enough new owners/fans/players to keep the game going.

horse racing has absolutely no problem packing the fans into Del mar, Saratoga, Belmont, etc on "Big Days". The Derby is packed, the triple crown races and BC races are very crowded, opening day at Saratoga and Del Mar and there are a few other big day's im forgetting.

The key is to get those people to attend on the other days too, not just once in a blue moon.

Racing doesnt have a problem getting fans to show up....they just have to get them to show up more and more consistently.

[Dave Schwartz]

I've had rutgers seasons tickets in football but never went cuz I love watcing 22 games at once..

SOMEONE has season tickets to RUTGERS?

:lol:

Seriously, you must be very loyal.

[thaskalos]

Jeff Platt is right, of course...and we've said similar things here many times before. But it's no use knocking on a deaf man's door...

Even an imbecile could see that the most heavily-taxed gambling game in existence cannot possibly afford to have any integrity problems...but this simple and obvious fact somehow eludes the very people who will be most affected by the game's steady decline...and eventual demise.

At least they won't be able to say that they weren't warned...

[broadreach]

20% better odds if you attend on track. Market the concept "you win more at the track".
Might need some restrictions, but if tracks can control the takeout they could try offering higher odds for those attending.

[wiffleball whizz]

SOMEONE has season tickets to RUTGERS?

:lol:

Seriously, you must be very loyal.

Not loyal but for the price it's not bad.....especially when they play a lot of thur-fri night games

I'll be selling next year when the big bad 10 teams come rolling in!!

[TravisVOX]

This is true, but nothing changes until somebody tries to make changes. How many years have we heard this excuse? No, it isn't an overnight process, but it can be done. When is somebody going to start?

I think there are plenty of people who try and want to reduce takeout and make horse player/customer friendly moves, but the levels of government and bureaucracy you have to go through, including groups who can't or don't want to risk their current revenue for potential future gains, make it a non-starter. Speaking from experience.

Unfortunately, many changes involve drastic adjustments to old laws and for most states in today's world, there are other things they deem more important to occupy their time at the capital.

[TravisVOX]

A couple of thoughts..

The idea that racing is too difficult or hard is probably true. But we all learned it, and others have too. Thus, we shouldn't feel the need to "dumb down" but instead strategically educate. A fan is born, in part, when they put some logical thought together and find a winner. Number players have plenty of other rapid-paced games to whet their appetite.

Off-track wagering dollars would make a meaningful impact but general pricing in the simulcast market is pretty tough for a racetrack. When a track handles $1 million but has a 3-6% host fee (pretty common for mid-range tracks), you're talking about $30,000 - $60,000 in revenue before taxes, purses, expenses etc. Tough go.

[craigbraddick]

Craig,

I really wish I could bet TDN. It is one of my most profitable tracks.

Unfortunately, they are off my ADW's board.


Dave

Dave:

One of the most frustrating things for me at the moment is the fact our product is better than it has been in many years. Lots of great wagering opportunities but because of this dispute our signal is going nowhere to all intents and purposes. That said we are on Twin Spires and Xpressbet.

Craig

[offtrack]

I would like to get a good cup of coffee at the racetrack. Something equal to coffee-house quality.

[wiffleball whizz]

Dave:

One of the most frustrating things for me at the moment is the fact our product is better than it has been in many years. Lots of great wagering opportunities but because of this dispute our signal is going nowhere to all intents and purposes. That said we are on Twin Spires and Xpressbet.

Craig

I'm not a fan of flats but I like tdn.....I've won a few wire bets cus of the angle there....

They need to get that signal exported

[Robert Goren]

make it 'family friendly' on weekends
pony rides for kids, photo op with jockeys, family meal deals, hay rides around back stretch

make fridays party night - live band and cheap booze after races


it is not all about gambling, some like the pagentry, colors and sound Seeing children at a race track makes me want to call child services. A race track is not a petting zoo nor should it be. A child has as much business being at race track as they do being at a blackjack table or a slot machine. It really is all about the gambling. It is adult entertainment.

[sammy the sage]

Seeing children at a race track makes me want to call child services. A race track is not a petting zoo nor should it be. A child has as much business being at race track as they do being at a blackjack table or a slot machine. It really is all about the gambling. It is adult entertainment.

THIS :ThmbUp:

[johnhannibalsmith]

Seeing children at a race track makes me want to call child services. A race track is not a petting zoo nor should it be. A child has as much business being at race track as they do being at a blackjack table or a slot machine. It really is all about the gambling. It is adult entertainment.


Wait a second, where has that Kayla Stra thread gone to? :lol:



Just keep your rugrats sedate and quiet is all I require.

[craigbraddick]

I disagree, Robert.

Going to the track from a young age got me interested in the sport. I learned about Math, correct behavior in public, how to place a bet, the pitfalls of gambling and enjoyed the spectacle of a wonderful sport.

Craig

[Clocker]

that's also a major contributor. Happened at cby for years with the casino four miles down the road. now that they teamed with the casino and have higher purses and aggressive promoting the attendance is way up I understand.

The casino bought them off. In exchange for some big bucks, mostly for bigger purses, the track dropped its push for racino authority.

I wasn't here in the olden days, but they seem to get good crowds now. I just checked some recent attendance figures, and they seem to average about 6,000 a day. Attendance seems to be helped by promotions. Thursday is Buck Night, with $1 admission and $1 hot dogs and soft drinks. Sunday is family day, with free pony rides, petting zoo, etc.

Note to other tracks: people will spend a lot of money for free or really cheap food. There are long lines at Canterbury for $1 hot dogs or half-price pizza night. That's a lesson a lot of bars and most casinos learned long ago. Also, do whatever possible for off-track betting. Canterbury's off-track handle is about twice its on-track handle.

[PhantomOnTour]

Like many, I agree with Jeff P...

it isn't about the pretty little horsies
it isn't about the majesty and pageantry
it isn't about that ridiculous notion of serendipity and mystical luck
it's about the gambling, dammit......the money

The best advertising a track can do is to just list some of their higher paying $1 trifectas and 10 cent supers; telling the public that this could have been theirs for a very small investment.

[Stillriledup]

A couple of thoughts..

The idea that racing is too difficult or hard is probably true. But we all learned it, and others have too. Thus, we shouldn't feel the need to "dumb down" but instead strategically educate. A fan is born, in part, when they put some logical thought together and find a winner. Number players have plenty of other rapid-paced games to whet their appetite.

Off-track wagering dollars would make a meaningful impact but general pricing in the simulcast market is pretty tough for a racetrack. When a track handles $1 million but has a 3-6% host fee (pretty common for mid-range tracks), you're talking about $30,000 - $60,000 in revenue before taxes, purses, expenses etc. Tough go.

Why does horse racing get saddled with the "chosen game" where people all of a sudden need to be "educated" to make a wager, but the lottery gets millions of dollars of handle per day with people stabbing on random combinations? Why do all of a sudden, these same lottery players feel that they can't make a bet on a horse race unless its an educated bet?

[chadk66]

The casino bought them off. In exchange for some big bucks, mostly for bigger purses, the track dropped its push for racino authority.

I wasn't here in the olden days, but they seem to get good crowds now. I just checked some recent attendance figures, and they seem to average about 6,000 a day. Attendance seems to be helped by promotions. Thursday is Buck Night, with $1 admission and $1 hot dogs and soft drinks. Sunday is family day, with free pony rides, petting zoo, etc.

Note to other tracks: people will spend a lot of money for free or really cheap food. There are long lines at Canterbury for $1 hot dogs or half-price pizza night. That's a lesson a lot of bars and most casinos learned long ago. Also, do whatever possible for off-track betting. Canterbury's off-track handle is about twice its on-track handle.it's a completely different atmosphere from when I left there in 2001. It's electric to say the least. Great promo's, etc. The first two years they averaged 10K a day. Then it declined rapidly. It's now ascending again because they are promoting the way the track did the first two years. Better actually. And they're making it alot more family friendly. The west end of the grandstand where the players club is at, is being kept separated from the family oriented area quite nicely. They can co-exist.

[chadk66]

Like many, I agree with Jeff P...

it isn't about the pretty little horsies
it isn't about the majesty and pageantry
it isn't about that ridiculous notion of serendipity and mystical luck
it's about the gambling, dammit......the money

The best advertising a track can do is to just list some of their higher paying $1 trifectas and 10 cent supers; telling the public that this could have been theirs for a very small investment.
totally disagree. they've been treating it like a "gambling only endeavor" for quite a few years now and it's declining fast. The tracks that have reverted back are going to see a rebound. The ones that don't, well they'll keep heading south.

[chadk66]

Why does horse racing get saddled with the "chosen game" where people all of a sudden need to be "educated" to make a wager, but the lottery gets millions of dollars of handle per day with people stabbing on random combinations? Why do all of a sudden, these same lottery players feel that they can't make a bet on a horse race unless its an educated bet?it's a falisy. they don't have to be educated. People get a hoot out of just betting numbers, the prettiest horse, the coolest jockey, etc. I'm going to keep using cby as an example because it's the track I know best. They have very few (practically none) hard core gamblers. Yet their attendance and handle is going up quickly.

[cj]

it's a falisy. they don't have to be educated. People get a hoot out of just betting numbers, the prettiest horse, the coolest jockey, etc. I'm going to keep using cby as an example because it's the track I know best. They have very few (practically none) hard core gamblers. Yet their attendance and handle is going up quickly.

It isn't a fallacy, the people you mention bet very little. If you want them to bet more, they need to be educated on the sport, or they disappear.

[thaskalos]

it's a falisy. they don't have to be educated. People get a hoot out of just betting numbers, the prettiest horse, the coolest jockey, etc. I'm going to keep using cby as an example because it's the track I know best. They have very few (practically none) hard core gamblers. Yet their attendance and handle is going up quickly.

You wouldn't happen to have the numbers of CBY on-track...would you?

[Stillriledup]

It isn't a fallacy, the people you mention bet very little. If you want them to bet more, they need to be educated on the sport, or they disappear.

Isnt that a fallacy also? Since when do gamblers need to be educated to gamble?

I think racing is "set up" so that you can't really make a bet unless you put yourself in a position to make a bet. In other words, you can't just ask the clerk at 7-11 to give you a "quick pick" on the 4th at Belmont.

Horse racing makes it hard to place a bet, you have to physically drive to a place that offers horse racing, 7-11s and liquor stores arent in play, you also need some sort of newspaper or program to see the numbers, you have to pay parking and admission...its an entire process...its not any process to grab a lottery ticket at 7-11 and thats why people have no problem with a random gamble. Horse racing makes it hard to bet their product, no excuse not to have betting on the horses in 7-11 right next to the lottery terminals.

[cj]

You wouldn't happen to have the numbers of CBY on-track...would you?

Saturday:
Track Attendance:
4986
Handle:
$166,054

Friday:
Track Attendance:
3887
Handle:
$137,311

Like I suspected, they don't bet.

[Valuist]

Saturday:
Track Attendance:
4986
Handle:
$166,054

Friday:
Track Attendance:
3887
Handle:
$137,311

Like I suspected, they don't bet.







Those are shockingly low numbers. $33-35 per person. And there's probably several that are pushing over a thousand thru, so take that away and its probably $10-15 per person.

[thaskalos]

Saturday:
Track Attendance:
4986
Handle:
$166,054

Friday:
Track Attendance:
3887
Handle:
$137,311

Like I suspected, they don't bet.







And Chadk66 thinks that THIS is the appropriate example to hold up to other tracks?

And they say trainers have no grasp on reality in this game... :rolleyes:

[chadk66]

the first year cby was open the average attendance was about 13K. The next year about 10K. The handle was a million first year then about 800k the next. These were all green horn/ first timers to the track. So if you have enough of those low dollar betters it adds up very quickly. They are heading in the right direction right now, def. on the upswing from past years. and it isn't the hard core betters doing it.

[cj]

Isnt that a fallacy also? Since when do gamblers need to be educated to gamble?

I think racing is "set up" so that you can't really make a bet unless you put yourself in a position to make a bet. In other words, you can't just ask the clerk at 7-11 to give you a "quick pick" on the 4th at Belmont.

Horse racing makes it hard to place a bet, you have to physically drive to a place that offers horse racing, 7-11s and liquor stores arent in play, you also need some sort of newspaper or program to see the numbers, you have to pay parking and admission...its an entire process...its not any process to grab a lottery ticket at 7-11 and thats why people have no problem with a random gamble. Horse racing makes it hard to bet their product, no excuse not to have betting on the horses in 7-11 right next to the lottery terminals.

Hard to bet? I can bet racing anywhere, any day, any time, on my phone.

There is some merit to what you say. In France, you can bet racing in bars. The people there are nuts for the Quinte which is one race per day where you have to pick the top 5. The PMU (Paris Mutuel Urbain) seeds the pool (I think it is a million Euro). But again, this is a lottery type bet.

[chadk66]

do you have an example of a track that has catered to the high dollar better and the handle and attendance went up?

[Stillriledup]

Hard to bet? I can bet racing anywhere, any day, any time, on my phone.

There is some merit to what you say. In France, you can bet racing in bars. The people there are nuts for the Quinte which is one race per day where you have to pick the top 5. The PMU (Paris Mutuel Urbain) seeds the pool (I think it is a million Euro). But again, this is a lottery type bet.

Yes, but you need to actually sign up for an account, give a SS number and other private info as well as fund the account....its a process and people who bet lotteries will just continue to bet lotteries and their 'lottery' money won't find its way into the horse racing pools. I have to admit, i would rather have non racing fans be able to just bet, anonymously, at 7-11 and have their money go into the pools.....the ADW requiring those bettors to 'sign up' with a SS number and a lot of other info does me no good....it just puts one more roadblock in my way of getting more sucker money in the pools.

[thaskalos]

do you have an example of a track that has catered to the high dollar better and the handle and attendance went up?

In every business in the entire world...the "premier" customer is catered to.

I have been in the retail grocery business for 30 years...and I've always given discounts to my biggest customers.

Horse racing is the only business I have ever encountered where the "big customers" are being insulted by being called "inferior" to the penny-pinching $2 bettors.

[cj]

Yes, but you need to actually sign up for an account, give a SS number and other private info as well as fund the account....its a process and people who bet lotteries will just continue to bet lotteries and their 'lottery' money won't find its way into the horse racing pools. I have to admit, i would rather have non racing fans be able to just bet, anonymously, at 7-11 and have their money go into the pools.....the ADW requiring those bettors to 'sign up' with a SS number and a lot of other info does me no good....it just puts one more roadblock in my way of getting more sucker money in the pools.

Those people aren't betting $20 win on the 5 in the 2nd at Parx on a Tuesday. They'll play lottery type bets with the possibility of a lottery type payout. That will help the tracks, sure, but the hardcore better? Doubtful.

[Stillriledup]

In every business in the entire world...the "premier" customer is catered to.

I have been in the retail grocery business for 30 years...and I've always given discounts to my biggest customers.

Horse racing is the only business I have ever encountered where the "big customers" are being insulted by being called "inferior" to the penny-pinching $2 bettors.

Its also one of the few business, if not the only one, where "small customers" seem to not understand that "big customers" get discounts. If you go into a bakery and buy 100 cupcakes for 100 dollars total, yet, the per price cupcake is 1.69, the person buying one cupcake isnt going to yell "hey, no fair" because they know that they too, could get cupcakes for 1 dollar each if they buy 100 of them.

[Stillriledup]

Those people aren't betting $20 win on the 5 in the 2nd at Parx on a Tuesday. They'll play lottery type bets with the possibility of a lottery type payout. That will help the tracks, sure, but the hardcore better? Doubtful.

Are you saying hardcore bettors don't bet pick 5s and pick 6s and pick anythings? Those are the pools where the money would end up, the 50 cent pick 5 is probably the most likely pool where a person can bet a quick pick for 50 cents and know if they hit, they can win thousands or even tens of thousands.

[Clocker]

Saturday:
Track Attendance:
4986
Handle:
$166,054

Friday:
Track Attendance:
3887
Handle:
$137,311

Like I suspected, they don't bet.


I just checked their off-track handle, and the numbers paint an odd picture. The off-track for Saturday and Sunday are about the same as on-track: $185K on Saturday and $181K on Sunday ($137K on-track). But Friday was $329K off-track, and Thursday was $524K ($182K on).

Checking the previous week shows the same pattern, on/off was $182K/$566K on Thursday, $159K/$381K on Friday, $205K/$206K Saturday, and $165K/$191K Sunday.

The answer to the pattern is post time. CBY PT is 6:30PM Thur./Fri. and 1:30PM Sat/Sun. They have too much competition off-track on week-end afternoons and a strong market on week-day evenings. Another bit of advice for track GMs: you can't compete with the big dogs.

[cj]

Are you saying hardcore bettors don't bet pick 5s and pick 6s and pick anythings? Those are the pools where the money would end up, the 50 cent pick 5 is probably the most likely pool where a person can bet a quick pick for 50 cents and know if they hit, they can win thousands or even tens of thousands.

I don't think people betting in a 7-11 are going to be playing P5s or P6s. Just my opinion, but they already have the lottery to win thousands, even millions for small amounts. You think anyone in this industry is going to seed the pool like they do in France? We've seen guaranteed pools, but they are almost invariably on days when everyone knows the pool will be big anyway.

And, people can actually watch the lottery draw on TV. Most people can't watch horse racing right now.

[cj]

I just checked their off-track handle, and the numbers paint an odd picture. The off-track for Saturday and Sunday are about the same as on-track: $185K on Saturday and $181K on Sunday ($137K on-track). But Friday was $329K off-track, and Thursday was $524K ($182K on).

Checking the previous week shows the same pattern, on/off was $182K/$566K on Thursday, $159K/$381K on Friday, $205K/$206K Saturday, and $165K/$191K Sunday.

The answer to the pattern is post time. CBY PT is 6:30PM Thur./Fri. and 1:30PM Sat/Sun. They have too much competition off-track on week-end afternoons and a strong market on week-day evenings. Another bit of advice for track GMs: you can't compete with the big dogs.

Pretty sure they get shown a lot more often on TVG on Thu/Fri.

[thaskalos]

I just checked their off-track handle, and the numbers paint an odd picture. The off-track for Saturday and Sunday are about the same as on-track: $185K on Saturday and $181K on Sunday ($137K on-track). But Friday was $329K off-track, and Thursday was $524K ($182K on).

Checking the previous week shows the same pattern, on/off was $182K/$566K on Thursday, $159K/$381K on Friday, $205K/$206K Saturday, and $165K/$191K Sunday.

The answer to the pattern is post time. CBY PT is 6:30PM Thur./Fri. and 1:30PM Sat/Sun. They have too much competition off-track on week-end afternoons and a strong market on week-day evenings. Another bit of advice for track GMs: you can't compete with the big dogs.

Is Canterbury even carried by the out-of-state OTBs on the weekends?

[Track Phantom]

Horse Racing is really an enigma. It is a gambling venture that attempts to be marketed as a sport. There are really no other major sports that lean on the gambling dollar for their survival.

I have been following racing for 27 years and used to go to the track as often as possible. Once I moved to Austin, TX (no tracks nearby), I wager strictly from home. At this point, racing to me is solely a gambling activity.

In order to draw the low end to average players to the track, you need to follow the Canterbury Park model which is to make it young, hip, fun, attractive crowd with energy and, on Sundays, market it as a family outing. Lots of ways to do this and it is a great investment even though this group is minimal betting impact (see the CBY per capita results).

In order to draw players like me to the track, it has to hit my bottom line. There is only one way this could happen. On track payouts have to be better. Even though I am a home bettor, I would support a lower takeout for on-track winners.

Beyond that, there are a ton of things you can do to keep people betting on track (MVP awards based on betting handle like free food, racing info, trips to the Derby/BC, etc).

One thing I would consider is daily contests for on-track only participants. For example, you come in, select a top pick (and alternate) from each race by going to a kiosk and signing in with your MVP card. You get a 2wps on each selection for that night and the results are tabulated immediately. Winner gets a $200 betting voucher. Something fun and aimed at the on-track crowd. You could show updated leaderboard on the monitors.

Lots of out-of-the-box ideas but it takes some creativity and imagination.

[Clocker]

Is Canterbury even carried by the out-of-state OTBs on the weekends?

You can bet on the races, but they aren't getting any air time on TVG or HRTV. Nobody from out of state is going to have much interest in CBY on a Saturday afternoon when Saratoga and Del Mar are running big name horses. And state law prohibits Minnesota residents from ADW wagering on Minnesota tracks.

[BlueShoe]

I would like to get a good cup of coffee at the racetrack. Something equal to coffee-house quality.
I would like to get a cheap cup of coffee at the racetrack or Otb site. Two bucks or more, plus sales tax and tip, for a cup of just so so java, is irritating. Price it way low, like under a dollar, so that after the tax the customer just leaves the change. Happy patron and happy concession stand worker.

[VeryOldMan]

Returning to the OP as to how "to try bring and keep the casual fan coming back to the track" - from what I've seen at live racing from returning to the sport after long absence, I'd consider:

A fresh coat of paint, better lighting, etc. - whatever your home track might most need. The tracks closest to me (CT, LRL, PIM) could all benefit from a scrubbing or some fresh paint.

Free parking and either free admission or nominal admission that includes a track program.

Reasonably priced concessions - doesn't have to be a loss leader, but I shouldn't be charged like I'm at a ballpark, e.g.

Teach your mutuel clerks to SMILE. A smile costs nothing. Maybe even have them wish someone "good luck". I think seasoned horse players forget that the track can be an intimidating environment for a casual fan who can feel as if "everyone else here knows what they're doing and I'm embarrassed to go up and put down my puny $2 wager to the stone-faced clerk".

Get someone who is otherwise sitting in a back-office to be a roving ambassador. I've never seen a track manager walking around my local tracks like a good restaurant manager - checking in with people, seeing if they need help, etc. They could target suspects who they think might be casual fans. Seeing if they need help figuring out the automated wagering machines, seeing if they are interested in betting on the tasty simulcast menu, walking the customer down to the paddock when the horses are being saddling - whatever it may be. I've never seen anyone attempting to SELL the product at my local tracks.

As others have said in the thread, the train may have already left the station on convincing the casual fan to go to the track but what I'm suggesting would cost very little.

[Stillriledup]

I would like to get a cheap cup of coffee at the racetrack or Otb site. Two bucks or more, plus sales tax and tip, for a cup of just so so java, is irritating. Price it way low, like under a dollar, so that after the tax the customer just leaves the change. Happy patron and happy concession stand worker.

Totally agree, they act like they have to send private messenger to Juan Valdez's house to pick up the beans and they're passing the 'savings' on to the consumer.

[Stillriledup]

Returning to the OP as to how "to try bring and keep the casual fan coming back to the track" - from what I've seen at live racing from returning to the sport after long absence, I'd consider:

A fresh coat of paint, better lighting, etc. - whatever your home track might most need. The tracks closest to me (CT, LRL, PIM) could all benefit from a scrubbing or some fresh paint.

Free parking and either free admission or nominal admission that includes a track program.

Reasonably priced concessions - doesn't have to be a loss leader, but I shouldn't be charged like I'm at a ballpark, e.g.

Teach your mutuel clerks to SMILE. A smile costs nothing. Maybe even have them wish someone "good luck". I think seasoned horse players forget that the track can be an intimidating environment for a casual fan who can feel as if "everyone else here knows what they're doing and I'm embarrassed to go up and put down my puny $2 wager to the stone-faced clerk".

Get someone who is otherwise sitting in a back-office to be a roving ambassador. I've never seen a track manager walking around my local tracks like a good restaurant manager - checking in with people, seeing if they need help, etc. They could target suspects who they think might be casual fans. Seeing if they need help figuring out the automated wagering machines, seeing if they are interested in betting on the tasty simulcast menu, walking the customer down to the paddock when the horses are being saddling - whatever it may be. I've never seen anyone attempting to SELL the product at my local tracks.

As others have said in the thread, the train may have already left the station on convincing the casual fan to go to the track but what I'm suggesting would cost very little.

Horse betting is a young mans game, yet, all the tellers are 70 years old with grumpy looks on their faces.

The last thing you want a young person to say when they leave the track is "hmmmm, i had fun, but there a lot of old people there'.

Young people don't want to be around old racetrack people, it depressing.

[Robert Goren]

Why do we have to draw people to the track to bet? Everybody else is pushing the online part of their business. If there was a business that lent itself to online, it is horse racing, yet we keep wanting to get people to the track. The small player doesn't have chance at the track because of expenses, but online he can limited them and just might win a few bucks once in a while. Fewer tracks and more online wager is the way for horse racing to go.

[Robert Goren]

Horse betting is a young mans game, yet, all the tellers are 70 years old with grumpy looks on their faces.

The last thing you want a young person to say when they leave the track is "hmmmm, i had fun, but there a lot of old people there'.

Young people don't want to be around old racetrack people, it depressing. That because the tracks are trying to get cheap labor. Hiring a young person means full time wages and benefits.

[Jeff P]

Plenty of examples of handle growing when the customer has been catered to or where innovation has taken place with the BETTOR in mind...

Sadly, in racing, TRACKS aren't the ones doing the catering/innovating.

It's actually the ADWs (and bookmakers) who do that.

What catering/innovations am I talking about?

From a technology standpoint:

Superior wagering interfaces - includes but not limited to:

Readily available info... Up to the minute odds, scratches and changes info for all tracks running. Video for any track on the wagering menu available upon demand (all it takes is a mouse click.) Race replays for the prior races of any horse running today at any track on the wagering menu (again all it takes is a mouse click.)

Then there's the wagering interface itself... fast ticket construction for all pool types offered on today's races at any track running, win dutching, conditional odds wagering, etc.

Add to that the ability to SEE the wagering info upon demand... for instance a menu displaying track code with race number and post time for upcoming races... from there the ability to drill down to the available pools for a current race and track code you are interested in... and from there get current pool size and dollar amounts bet on the individual runners. (Perhaps more important is FINAL pool size for today's races that have gone official. Important if you are betting serious money and you don't want to overbet the pool and knock your own prices down.) Also available with a mouse would be info such as the exacta matrix for the current race at any track running... along with the ability to display will pays for DD P3 P4 P5 P6 etc. (all available with a mouse click.)...

Then there's the ability to roll your own so to speak... For instance, I can write a ticket generation app that runs on my PC or laptop that allows me to (very quickly) generate my own tickets (using MY preferred ticket structure) and save them (in the correct format) to a text file... and from there, upload the text file to the server at the ADW and get back a confirmation code...

Also, I'm happy to say, many of the better ADWs have started making an effort to develop reporting engines to enable the player to do some wager history analysis...

Those innovations are available to EVERYBODY... (There's undoubtedly more. Those just are the ones that come to mind off the top of my head. And I haven't even touched on the subject of rebates which are just another form of lower effective takeout.)

I hate to say it... but for the high end player, a race track is probably one of the worst environments you can put yourself in if your objective is to do some serious betting.

Does innovation with BETTORS in mind work?

All you have to do is ask yourself where innovation has taken place and then look at North American handle trends over the past 10-15 years.... On track vs. ADW... rebated vs. full retail, etc.




-jp

.

[Stillriledup]

That because the tracks are trying to get cheap labor. Hiring a young person means full time wages and benefits.

Really? I would think its the other way around....i would think that young people come cheap, work with no insurance and benefits, younger people would be more apt to work a part time job....no?

[Stillriledup]

Plenty of examples of handle growing when the customer has been catered to or where innovation has taken place with the BETTOR in mind...

Sadly, in racing, TRACKS aren't the ones doing the catering/innovating.

It's actually the ADWs (and bookmakers) who do that.

What catering/innovations am I talking about?

From a technology standpoint:

Superior wagering interfaces - includes but not limited to:

Readily available info... Up to the minute odds, scratches and changes info for all tracks running. Video for any track on the wagering menu available upon demand (all it takes is a mouse click.) Race replays for the prior races of any horse running today at any track on the wagering menu (again all it takes is a mouse click.)

Then there's the wagering interface itself... fast ticket construction for all pool types offered on today's races at any track running, win dutching, conditional odds wagering, etc.

Add to that the ability to SEE wagering info upon demand... for instance the available pools for the current race along with current pool size dollar amounts bet on each runner. (Perhaps more important is FINAL pool size for today's races that have gone official. Important if you are betting serious money and you don't want to overbet the pool and knock your own prices down.) Also available with a mouse would be info such as the exacta matrix for the current race at any track running... along with the ability to display will pays for DD P3 P4 P5 P6 etc. (all available with a mouse click.)...

Then there's the ability to roll your own so to speak... For instance, I can write a ticket generation app that runs on my PC or laptop that allows me to (very quickly) generate my own tickets (using MY preferred ticket structure) and save them (in the correct format) to a text file... and from there, upload the text file to the server at the ADW and get back a confirmation code...

Also, I'm happy to say, many of the better ADWs have started making an effort to develop reporting engines to enable the player to do some wager history analysis...

Those innovations are available to EVERYBODY... (There's undoubtedly more. Those just are the ones that come to mind off the top of my head. And I haven't even touched on the subject of rebates which are just another form of lower effective takeout.)

I hate to say it... but for the high end player, a race track is probably one of the worst environments you can put yourself in if your objective is to do some serious betting.

Does innovation with BETTORS in mind work?

All you have to do is ask yourself where innovation has taken place and then look at North American handle trends over the past 10-15 years.... On track vs. ADW... rebated vs. full retail, etc.




-jp

.

I played around with the DRF app "ticketmaker" but it was so pedestrian, i just gave up.

I need an app where i can plug in percentages of every horse in every race of the sequence, instruct the machine to spend X amount of dollars, and for that program to place the bets exactly according to my opinion. That type of thing shouldnt be too hard to get...but, i'm no computer genius, so i wouldnt know the first thing about how to acquire a program like that.

[BlueShoe]

Seeing children at a race track makes me want to call child services. A race track is not a petting zoo nor should it be. A child has as much business being at race track as they do being at a blackjack table or a slot machine. It really is all about the gambling. It is adult entertainment.
With RG on this, with some exceptions. Kids under 12 should not be at a racetrack at all, and under the legal betting age at an Otb site, never. There is simply nothing for young children to do, and bored cranky kids are not going to become fans at a later date, except today become disruptive and annoy the adults. At some SoCal Otb sites under 18 are not admitted, a few do permit them with, of course, an adult. Kids 12 and up are old enough to understand racing, so would permit them to attend live racing and nurture them and try to develop an interest in our pastime in them.

The concept of promoting horseracing as a "Family Pastime" is bunk, and does not work, it is a gambling pastime for grownups. The Las Vegas hotel/casinos pushed this family destination idea some years ago, and it has not worked out well.

[chadk66]

Is Canterbury even carried by the out-of-state OTBs on the weekends?no

[chadk66]

Horse Racing is really an enigma. It is a gambling venture that attempts to be marketed as a sport. There are really no other major sports that lean on the gambling dollar for their survival.

I have been following racing for 27 years and used to go to the track as often as possible. Once I moved to Austin, TX (no tracks nearby), I wager strictly from home. At this point, racing to me is solely a gambling activity.

In order to draw the low end to average players to the track, you need to follow the Canterbury Park model which is to make it young, hip, fun, attractive crowd with energy and, on Sundays, market it as a family outing. Lots of ways to do this and it is a great investment even though this group is minimal betting impact (see the CBY per capita results).

In order to draw players like me to the track, it has to hit my bottom line. There is only one way this could happen. On track payouts have to be better. Even though I am a home bettor, I would support a lower takeout for on-track winners.

Beyond that, there are a ton of things you can do to keep people betting on track (MVP awards based on betting handle like free food, racing info, trips to the Derby/BC, etc).

One thing I would consider is daily contests for on-track only participants. For example, you come in, select a top pick (and alternate) from each race by going to a kiosk and signing in with your MVP card. You get a 2wps on each selection for that night and the results are tabulated immediately. Winner gets a $200 betting voucher. Something fun and aimed at the on-track crowd. You could show updated leaderboard on the monitors.

Lots of out-of-the-box ideas but it takes some creativity and imagination.some very valid points. I also believe how you market the track has to be done based on the people living in your geographical area. the way canterbury markets probably won't work for let's say laurel. mn doesn't have bettors that lay down large sums of money per race. there's a couple but two guys won't cut it.

[cj]

no

They are carried at OTBs out of state. Where did you get that info?

[Stillriledup]

With RG on this, with some exceptions. Kids under 12 should not be at a racetrack at all, and under the legal betting age at an Otb site, never. There is simply nothing for young children to do, and bored cranky kids are not going to become fans at a later date, except today become disruptive and annoy the adults. At some SoCal Otb sites under 18 are not admitted, a few do permit them with, of course, an adult. Kids 12 and up are old enough to understand racing, so would permit them to attend live racing and nurture them and try to develop an interest in our pastime in them.

The concept of promoting horseracing as a "Family Pastime" is bunk, and does not work, it is a gambling pastime for grownups. The Las Vegas hotel/casinos pushed this family destination idea some years ago, and it has not worked out well.

How many of us would be posting on these boards today, or, following this sport at all, if we werent allowed inside a racetrack until we were 18, parent./guardian or not?

[BlueShoe]

How many of us would be posting on these boards today, or, following this sport at all, if we werent allowed inside a racetrack until we were 18, parent./guardian or not?
For starters, myself. I was 20 the first time at the track back when you had to be 21 to wager in California. I went by myself with no parental, family, or friend influence. Perhaps the fact that some years earlier had known a man that had written a short book on horseracing triggered my interest, unsure what it was. Perhaps missed was my earlier comment in which I stated that 12 and up was ok at live racing but not at otb sites.

[Stillriledup]

For starters, myself. I was 20 the first time at the track back when you had to be 21 to wager in California. I went by myself with no parental, family, or friend influence. Perhaps the fact that some years earlier had known a man that had written a short book on horseracing triggered my interest, unsure what it was. Perhaps missed was my earlier comment in which I stated that 12 and up was ok at live racing but not at otb sites.

I think 12 and up is fair. Are people under 12 allowed into sporting events, like baseball games and whatnut? Why would it be different to not let them into a horse racing facility, but its ok to let them to to a Raiders Game?

[chadk66]

They are carried at OTBs out of state. Where did you get that info?I misunderstood what he was asking. I thought he was asking if tvg had them on sat/sun. I need to learn to read better lol

[chadk66]

I think 12 and up is fair. Are people under 12 allowed into sporting events, like baseball games and whatnut? Why would it be different to not let them into a horse racing facility, but its ok to let them to to a Raiders Game?people get killed at them games;)

[TJDave]

Some State is gonna get smart and license a facility without a grandstand, parking, lousy overpriced food and drink or betting windows. It will be TV/online only. You could put it anywhere that wasn't terribly inconvenient for horsemen. I'm surprised it isn't here...now.

[Robert Goren]

Really? I would think its the other way around....i would think that young people come cheap, work with no insurance and benefits, younger people would be more apt to work a part time job....no? It is the full time part that young people away unless they were to hire college kids which is a different kind of headache. The old guy is just supplementing his Social Security.

[cj]

The old guy is just supplementing his Social Security.

You are being ridiculous.

[Robert Goren]

One of the biggest problems racing has to day is the lack of marketing. Nobody is marketing their product to the non horse player. I am not sure they even know or want to. It seems like the idea of paying for advertising is foreign to the ADWs and race tracks.

[Robert Goren]

You are being ridiculous. Not at the tracks around here. The tellers are all part time and on SS. Retired teachers are very common.

[Jeff P]

totally disagree. they've been treating it like a "gambling only endeavor" for quite a few years now and it's declining fast. The tracks that have reverted back are going to see a rebound. The ones that don't, well they'll keep heading south.Who are "they?" Are you talking about one track in particular? Or are you talking about race tracks in general?

If you are talking about tracks in general...

If "they" really think racing has been "run like a gambling only endeavor for quite a few years"...

Then as a gambler, I have to tell you "they" have no idea (as in literally) what it is that gamblers want.



-jp

.

[usedtolovetvg]

Ya better agree with CJ unless you just like watching Leave it to Beaver and Father Knows Best. Racing wants to live in the 1950s some of them in the 1930s. They had every opportunity to grow their fan base for years and years and didn't because of their arrogance and ignorance. The good news for the industry is they always have a chance. The bad news is they aren't even close to putting someone in a position to make it happen. Success in any business is all about marketing and racing's attempts have been complete failures. Give the NTRA more money!

Go Baby Go!

[Jeff P]

One of the biggest problems racing has to day is the lack of marketing. Nobody is marketing their product to the non horse player. I am not sure they even know or want to. It seems like the idea of paying for advertising is foreign to the ADWs and race tracks. The problem isn't one of marketing Robert. It's one of retention.

You can market all you want. But too many of the non horseplayers being marketed to give it a try, recognize the product for what it is, and then go back to the casino where they get more bang for their buck. (You can pretend all you want that things like takeout and integrity of the game do not matter. Problem is the demographic of gamblers who are spending their money at the casino see it otherwise.)

This isn't just my opinion.

All you need do to verify what I am saying is read the industry's own paid for economic studies.


-jp

.

[TheEdge07]

Our generation maybe the last..

[therussmeister]

Those are shockingly low numbers. $33-35 per person. And there's probably several that are pushing over a thousand thru, so take that away and its probably $10-15 per person.
There are likely a lot of people that don't bet live racing at all. You still get counted even if you are only playing simulcast.

[cj]

Not at the tracks around here. The tellers are all part time and on SS. Retired teachers are very common.

Well, you are in Lincoln, NE, right? Hardly representative of the tracks I've attended when it comes to tellers. What tracks are left, anyway?

[Clocker]

The only track I have been to in a while is Canterbury. Pretty much all the tellers there look like they are mid-20s to mid-30s.

[Longshot6977]

If you were a general manager at a track and given a small budget to try to improve the product and to try bring and keep the casual fan coming back to the track, what would you do?

On thing I hate is a track charging you to get in and a taking on a parking fee as well

After thinking about my younger years and why I went (and even knew about) horse tracks, I can say it was all about the advertising and promotion on regular TV. Shows like Harvey Pack's and Spencer Ross's Racing from Yonkers or Racing from Roosevelt or Monticello or Meadowlands etc on local TV channels got many interested in the NY/NJ metro area. I'm sure there were other areas where local broadcasts got new fans interested. Also, there were daily big name horses and jockeys/drivers and trainers we wanted to be like that we read about in newspapers and saw on TV. We went to the races since there was no simulcasting back then or ADW's to bet from home.

Then there was a proliferation of simulcasting and ADWs followed making it unnecessary to actually go to the track, except on big race days to see the big name horses. Today, there really is no promotion of the sport or advertising in general and people lost interest. Only the seasoned veterans survived this great game/sport.

It really wasn't about the takeout since we never knew or cared what the takeout was or if there was admission. Think about it when you were younger; didn't you just expect to pay a few bucks to get into this venue or park to make some bets since it was the 'in' thing going on at the time.

There really is no need to get fans to come to the track anymore since it can all be done from home or simo center. It may be a good idea to build/modify tracks with no provisions for fans (they'll save big $$ on overhead).

But if you really need fans to come to the track, more promotion/advertising is needed on local TV channels where millions can see it. Ask anyone who is a big name horse or trainer and most likely they'll say Secretariat or Seattle Slew or fill in the blank with a big name. Ask about a jockey and you may get Angel Cordero jr, Jerry Bailey, Shoemaker etc. who are all dead/retired. No one knows anything current about the sport because there is no promotion of the game/sport like years past and that is just sad. So spend some of your limited budget on advertising/promotions, give on track fans something free like Balmoral does, even a measly free $15 gas card drawing at the track and free beverage refills or whatever. The fan wants to feel appreciated which many tracks forgot about.

And to the people who say CBY ( or was that TDN?) attendance is up, but the handle is low: since you have a captured audience at the track, do something with them like teaching them about wagering, about the betting machines, about how cool it would be to make a small bet and win big money etc. You got them there, now take action with them.

[Robert Goren]

The problem isn't one of marketing Robert. It's one of retention.

You can market all you want. But too many of the non horseplayers being marketed to give it a try, recognize the product for what it is, and then go back to the casino where they get more bang for their buck. (You can pretend all you want that things like takeout and integrity of the game do not matter. Problem is the demographic of gamblers who are spending their money at the casino see it otherwise.)

This isn't just my opinion.

All you need do to verify what I am saying is read the industry's own paid for economic studies.


-jp

.You probably right, but I just don't see many ads for horse racing anywhere.

[Tom]

You probably right, but I just don't see many ads for horse racing anywhere. You see them on TVG and HRTV, where you are likely to draw in any number of new customers. Duh.

[Cannon shell]

I'd work to change the perception of my track and racing in general. Pretty simple to say, pretty hard to do.

[ElKabong]

Why do we have to draw people to the track to bet? Everybody else is pushing the online part of their business. .

Casinos are thriving, and they'd like to have a word with you.....

MAKE the atmosphere on- track attractive, it will go a long way to fill the seats and grow new fans. The sport will die very soon if new fans / bettors aren't cultivated

[cj]

I'd work to change the perception of my track and racing in general. Pretty simple to say, pretty hard to do.

Even if it were easy to do, what happens when people come out and see what is really going on?

[Jeff P]

From The Jockey Club Website...

Michael Lamb - Partner, Media & Entertainment Group, McKinsey & Company
Driving Sustainable Growth: One Year Later:
http://www.jockeyclub.com/roundtable_12.asp?section=4

...While horse racing struggled to remain flat, casino gambling grew 3% last year, even as that industry eagerly awaits the legalization of online poker and casino games, which will fuel their growth in years to come.

Our purses are up almost 8% over the same period, largely on the strength of racino subsidies. Even as developments in Ontario, where the Provencal government has approved a phase out of the subsidy, remind us that this windfall should not be relied on over the long term.

Most importantly, perhaps, the fan base is not yet growing. Our research confirms that not enough fans are coming into the sport. The issues around stigma, integrity, complexity and welfare of the athletes that we identified last year remain a barrier for new fans....

and:

...Second, ADW innovation. ADW's share of handle continues to grow, yet the ADW experience remains targeted toward hard-core fans, and remains intimidating for new users.

The industry is not capitalizing on the sport's monopoly for legal, online gaming. And while the window is still open today, the next year may see the legalization of poker in one or more states, bringing the competition for gaming dollars online.

Unless the industry innovates and acquires new users now, we fear that legalization of online gambling will accelerate racing's decline...



-jp

.

[Edward DeVere]

Get someone who is otherwise sitting in a back-office to be a roving ambassador. I've never seen a track manager walking around my local tracks like a good restaurant manager - checking in with people, seeing if they need help, etc. They could target suspects who they think might be casual fans. Seeing if they need help figuring out the automated wagering machines, seeing if they are interested in betting on the tasty simulcast menu, walking the customer down to the paddock when the horses are being saddling - whatever it may be. I've never seen anyone attempting to SELL the product at my local tracks.


If I ran a race track, I would have two offices - a private one and a public one. The public one would be on the grandstand floor. The furnishings would consist of two desks and four chairs. The only wall would be the grandstand wall behind me.

I would spend 75% of my time there or walking around.

[Stillriledup]

If I ran a race track, I would have two offices - a private one and a public one. The public one would be on the grandstand floor. The furnishings would consist of two desks and four chairs. The only wall would be the grandstand wall behind me.

I would spend 75% of my time there or walking around.

How many of you have ever had a GM or a track "higher up" approach you at the track and say "thanks for coming, how is your experience so far?" And then add "if there's any questions you might have, here's my card, feel free to call"

I know its never happened to me and i've never heard it happening to anyone....yet, what i'm suggesting is FREE. Doesnt cost the track anything and yet, even at the great price of FREE, they still don't do it.

[Edward DeVere]

The ideas are endless, really.

Example: It's late in the evening. There's a dozen hard-core regulars hanging around Section Whatever, betting simulcast after simulcast after simulcast. These guys are at your track EVERY DAY, EVERY NIGHT, betting into a blended takeout of twenty freakin' percent.

One night you show up with three large, hot pizzas, with toppings ferchrissakes.

Everybody gets two slices, and you thank everybody for coming.

Do you have any IDEA how much people like getting something FREE?

People LOVE getting something FREE.

Hell - RICH and FAMOUS movie stars go to the Oscars and go crazy over a FREE bag o' swag. These people are RICH, but they LOVE-LOVE-LOVE! those freebies.

I bought the Racing Form for THIRTY YEARS. You know how many times I got a Form for FREE from the owners of the Form or the owners of the track? NEVER. That's N-E-V-E-R.

Pizzas, three lousy pizzas. Maybe you show up a couple weeks later with some free sodas.

This thread is about inexpensive ideas. What's a freakin' soda cost?

[Stillriledup]

The ideas are endless, really.

Example: It's late in the evening. There's a dozen hard-core regulars hanging around Section Whatever, betting simulcast after simulcast after simulcast. These guys are at your track EVERY DAY, EVERY NIGHT, betting into a blended takeout of twenty freakin' percent.

One night you show up with three large, hot pizzas, with toppings ferchrissakes.

Everybody gets two slices, and you thank everybody for coming.

Do you have any IDEA how much people like getting something FREE?

People LOVE getting something FREE.

Hell - RICH and FAMOUS movie stars go to the Oscars and go crazy over a FREE bag o' swag. These people are RICH, but they LOVE-LOVE-LOVE! those freebies.

I bought the Racing Form for THIRTY YEARS. You know how many times I got a Form for FREE from the owners of the Form or the owners of the track? NEVER. That's N-E-V-E-R.

Pizzas, three lousy pizzas. Maybe you show up a couple weeks later with some free sodas.

This thread is about inexpensive ideas. What's a freakin' soda cost?

But, what they do instead is "kick you out' of the nice, spacious area and jam you "downstairs" with all the riff raff because they're "closing this floor".

[highnote]

If you were a general manager at a track and given a small budget to try to improve the product and to try bring and keep the casual fan coming back to the track, what would you do?

The first thing I would do is look for a new job.

[Seabiscuit@AR]

One of horse racing's problems these days is attracting new money to the gambling game is very difficult as the game is not fair for most new players

Most new players will be small bettors who will have no knowledge of rebates and the like. These novice players will be betting with a handicap against other players with big rebates and many years of experience playing the game. I don't know of any other game or contest where the weakest players have to suffer a handicap at the hands of the best and most experienced players. But this is what the horse racing gambling game in 2013 asks the novice players to do. Is it any wonder that horse racing cannot attract any new gambling money? A new jockey is allowed a weight claim so they can compete against the more experienced jockeys. If instead you give Joel Rosario the biggest weight claim and the new jockey no weight claim then Joel Rosario will ride many winners while no new jockey will survive long enough to make it worthwhile being a jockey. Instead the new jockey will quit the racing game and go find another activity that gives them a chance

I don't think there should be any rebates for any player (ie a level playing field) but perhaps using the apprentice jockey analogy you can make a case for new players to the gambling game receiving rebates at the expense of all the other players in the game. However the present situation where the best players get the biggest rebates is madness and it is almost impossible for new players to gain any foothold in this gambling game

My guess is that any young aspiring horseplayers these days will play the game for a month or two and watch a string of short priced faves winning lots of races. They will also see trifectas paying 400 that a few years back would have paid 500+. Their gut feeling will be that the game cannot be beaten and they will turn their backs on horse racing to go gamble on another game instead. And really this gut feeling is probably correct as new players to horse racing have it much tougher than they did years ago as they are up against heavily rebated computer syndicates that have way too big of a headstart and which crush the dividends of all the winning combos down to their minimum payouts possible. Most of the prices of winners these days are not attractive enough to keep the new or casual player interested

The best and most experienced players need to give up some of their current advantages so that new players have a chance to survive and grow in this game. No new players = no new money and death to horse racing as a gambling game

[thaskalos]

it's a falisy. they don't have to be educated. People get a hoot out of just betting numbers, the prettiest horse, the coolest jockey, etc. I'm going to keep using cby as an example because it's the track I know best. They have very few (practically none) hard core gamblers. Yet their attendance and handle is going up quickly.

This is the sort of argument -- usually made by horse trainers -- that has me climbing the walls. It usually surfaces right after someone suggests that the complexity associated with learning how to play this game might be a deterrent to the "new blood" that is so badly needed in our game.


"It's a falsity; these new players don't need to be educated"...this ridiculous argument goes. "People get a hoot out of just betting numbers, the prettiest horse, the coolest jockey, etc."

These gentlemen, of course, conveniently forget about all the OTHER betting options that are available to those players who "get a hoot out of just betting numbers..."

Why...if I were the sort of player who got a "hoot out of just playing numbers"...I would much rather go play the ROULETTE...which is, at once, both a much more HONEST game...AND much lighter on the "number player's" pocket book.

Who would pay 17%+ to play numbers at the track...when they could play the same numbers at the casino...for a 5% fee?

That's why this game finds itself in its current state.

Those who run it think that their customers are IDIOTS...who can't recognize a bad deal when they see one.

[Jeff P]

Getting back to the question asked by the original poster at the top of this thread: If you were a general manager at a track and given a small budget to try to improve the product and to try bring and keep the casual fan coming back to the track, what would you do?

If I were the General Manager, here's what I would do:

I would create a player rewards card (just like they have on the casino side of things.)

From there, I would implement the following:

Swipe your player rewards card beforehand at a mutuel window - and any winning ticket you buy (on track only) that day is worth an additional 10%.

Examples:

Customer swipes player's reward card beforehand (on track only) and buys a $2.00 win ticket on a horse that wins a race and final odds are 4.00 to 1... Customer is paid $11.00 (on track only.)

On track customer who wants nothing to do with player rewards card buys a $2.00 win ticket on that same horse... That ticket is worth $10.00. (Want the extra 10%? Then sign up for the player rewards card!)

Customer playing somewhere other than on track buys a $2.00 win ticket on that same horse... That ticket is worth $10.00. (Want the extra 10%? Then sign up for the player rewards card and get yourself out to the track!)

My thinking is Parx Racing might be the perfect place to try something like this. The surrounding area has a significant population base to draw from (plenty of gamblers nearby.)

Parx also has a slots subsidy. (To my way of thinking that means there is very little in the way of downside risk for trying out customer friendly ideas on the racing side of things.)

Having a player rewards card enables the business to capture customer contact info and demographics (which in turn can be used to identify target/niche markets within the customer base and improve the efficiency of future marketing efforts.)

If I were the GM I would create a player rewards program (on track only) as a way to draw gamblers from the surrounding area to the racing side of my facility - AND I would promote the hell out of it... Cable TV, Newspaper, Radio, Billboards, etc.



-jp

.

[jasperson]

How about a weekly newsletter with real information in it? Things like why horses were scratched at the gate. Jockey and trainer fines. Horses that are being treated by the Vet for serious lameness or sickness. Track bias for the week. Human interesting stories about trainers, jockeys or horses. This could all be sent out to our email address. I think we can think of others that would be interesting and valuable.

[Stillriledup]

One of horse racing's problems these days is attracting new money to the gambling game is very difficult as the game is not fair for most new players

Most new players will be small bettors who will have no knowledge of rebates and the like. These novice players will be betting with a handicap against other players with big rebates and many years of experience playing the game. I don't know of any other game or contest where the weakest players have to suffer a handicap at the hands of the best and most experienced players. But this is what the horse racing gambling game in 2013 asks the novice players to do. Is it any wonder that horse racing cannot attract any new gambling money? A new jockey is allowed a weight claim so they can compete against the more experienced jockeys. If instead you give Joel Rosario the biggest weight claim and the new jockey no weight claim then Joel Rosario will ride many winners while no new jockey will survive long enough to make it worthwhile being a jockey. Instead the new jockey will quit the racing game and go find another activity that gives them a chance

I don't think there should be any rebates for any player (ie a level playing field) but perhaps using the apprentice jockey analogy you can make a case for new players to the gambling game receiving rebates at the expense of all the other players in the game. However the present situation where the best players get the biggest rebates is madness and it is almost impossible for new players to gain any foothold in this gambling game

My guess is that any young aspiring horseplayers these days will play the game for a month or two and watch a string of short priced faves winning lots of races. They will also see trifectas paying 400 that a few years back would have paid 500+. Their gut feeling will be that the game cannot be beaten and they will turn their backs on horse racing to go gamble on another game instead. And really this gut feeling is probably correct as new players to horse racing have it much tougher than they did years ago as they are up against heavily rebated computer syndicates that have way too big of a headstart and which crush the dividends of all the winning combos down to their minimum payouts possible. Most of the prices of winners these days are not attractive enough to keep the new or casual player interested

The best and most experienced players need to give up some of their current advantages so that new players have a chance to survive and grow in this game. No new players = no new money and death to horse racing as a gambling game

Its a level playing field. Most everyone who currently has a rebate didnt start out with one...they all started off as 2 dollar bettors decades ago and worked their way up the ladder. Its fair for everyone, everyone has to start at the bottom, that's the way it works in every walk of life.

Trifectas that pay 400 now, that used to pay 500 has absolutely nothing to do with rebates, it has to do with the players getting better. There's more information out there, the horsebettors are smarter, its harder to win, but don't confuse that with rebates, they have nothing to do with each other.

If you make a win bet with no rebate into a 15% takeout, they take 15 cents from your 1 dollar whether there are rebate bettors in the pool or not. You know the takeout before you bet, when you place that bet you essentially agree to having 15 cents of your 1 dollar taken out....that 15 cents is fixed, it's 15 cents no matter who's betting into that pool.

You say that the rebate model "crushes" the winning combos to their minimum payouts possible....but, what does that have to do with rebates? The computer geniuses who make certain pools more efficient markets are doing so with computers, computer programs and intelligence...the rebate is not a factor. Also, when one combo goes down, another combo goes up. They all don't go down at the same time.

What i think you're talking about is the reason its hard to win these days is the efficiency of the market and the intelligence of the players, which has nothing to do with how certain ADWs deal with profit sharing.

Nothing has changed in the last few decades as far as the betting model is concerned.....in any random race, there are underlays, overlays and horses that are correctly priced......it was that way decades ago, and its that way today..the math part hasnt changed, the only thing that's changed is that its become harder to win because the bettors are smarter, dont confuse smarter bettors with rebates, what an ADW does with their own profits behind the scenes doesnt affect you at all.

[cutchemist42]

As someone who only got into it a few months ago, it was pretty overwhelming at first. Without good stuff to read online and in the program, it can be much scary compared to basic VLT machines to get the gambling itch.

At the same time, I've heard friends say who have visited a track atleast once say losing money on a horse race was more fun then losing money infront of a video screen.

I would do whatever I could do then to convince them a drive to the horse track would be a funner time then the casino.

[VeryOldMan]

Its fair for everyone, everyone has to start at the bottom

This is gambling, not real life employment. I (formerly in the US) played online poker for pennies and didn't have to worry that Phil Ivey was plundering my tables - because that market sought its own level. Phil Ivey wasn't slumming at my penny tables - he was plundering the high stakes tables.

I can't avoid the Phil Iveys in parimutuel wagering. Huge difference in this sport and part of why this sport has trouble retaining new fans. It's very, very hard to beat the takeout and the highly-efficient market that puts Phil Ivey at the same table as me.

[Stillriledup]

This is gambling, not real life employment. I (formerly in the US) played online poker for pennies and didn't have to worry that Phil Ivey was plundering my tables - because that market sought its own level. Phil Ivey wasn't slumming at my penny tables - he was plundering the high stakes tables.

I can't avoid the Phil Iveys in parimutuel wagering. Huge difference in this sport and part of why this sport has trouble retaining new fans. It's very, very hard to beat the takeout and the highly-efficient market that puts Phil Ivey at the same table as me.

You're right that You dont technically HAVE to start at the bottom, but horse betting is so hard, people who enter the game arent just going to start winning on day 1 or month 1, and very few, if any, start off betting hundreds or thousands per race. Most of us "started at the bottom" knowing nothing and betting 2 dollars to win or show.

[Dave Schwartz]

Beginners

Derek Simon told me that "Beginners" is the topic of conversation on tomorrow's Derek Simon Podcast (http://www.blogtalkradio.com/twinspires).


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[RXB]

One of horse racing's problems these days is attracting new money to the gambling game is very difficult as the game is not fair for most new players

Most new players will be small bettors who will have no knowledge of rebates and the like. These novice players will be betting with a handicap against other players with big rebates and many years of experience playing the game. I don't know of any other game or contest where the weakest players have to suffer a handicap at the hands of the best and most experienced players. But this is what the horse racing gambling game in 2013 asks the novice players to do. Is it any wonder that horse racing cannot attract any new gambling money? A new jockey is allowed a weight claim so they can compete against the more experienced jockeys. If instead you give Joel Rosario the biggest weight claim and the new jockey no weight claim then Joel Rosario will ride many winners while no new jockey will survive long enough to make it worthwhile being a jockey. Instead the new jockey will quit the racing game and go find another activity that gives them a chance

I don't think there should be any rebates for any player (ie a level playing field) but perhaps using the apprentice jockey analogy you can make a case for new players to the gambling game receiving rebates at the expense of all the other players in the game. However the present situation where the best players get the biggest rebates is madness and it is almost impossible for new players to gain any foothold in this gambling game

My guess is that any young aspiring horseplayers these days will play the game for a month or two and watch a string of short priced faves winning lots of races. They will also see trifectas paying 400 that a few years back would have paid 500+. Their gut feeling will be that the game cannot be beaten and they will turn their backs on horse racing to go gamble on another game instead. And really this gut feeling is probably correct as new players to horse racing have it much tougher than they did years ago as they are up against heavily rebated computer syndicates that have way too big of a headstart and which crush the dividends of all the winning combos down to their minimum payouts possible. Most of the prices of winners these days are not attractive enough to keep the new or casual player interested

The best and most experienced players need to give up some of their current advantages so that new players have a chance to survive and grow in this game. No new players = no new money and death to horse racing as a gambling game

I agree that large volume rebates are not good for the game in the long run. However, it's actually above-average players who take the worst of it from the whales and their rebates, rather than the typical newbie or very casual player.

[chadk66]

This is the sort of argument -- usually made by horse trainers -- that has me climbing the walls. It usually surfaces right after someone suggests that the complexity associated with learning how to play this game might be a deterrent to the "new blood" that is so badly needed in our game.


"It's a falsity; these new players don't need to be educated"...this ridiculous argument goes. "People get a hoot out of just betting numbers, the prettiest horse, the coolest jockey, etc."

These gentlemen, of course, conveniently forget about all the OTHER betting options that are available to those players who "get a hoot out of just betting numbers..."

Why...if I were the sort of player who got a "hoot out of just playing numbers"...I would much rather go play the ROULETTE...which is, at once, both a much more HONEST game...AND much lighter on the "number player's" pocket book.

Who would pay 17%+ to play numbers at the track...when they could play the same numbers at the casino...for a 5% fee?

That's why this game finds itself in its current state.

Those who run it think that their customers are IDIOTS...who can't recognize a bad deal when they see one.
1. they can't take the kids to the casino
2. the Roulette wheel won't eat sugar lumps out of your hand
3. The overwhelming majority of people at the track playing horses don't know the takeout nor care.

I could go on for quite awhile. I'm sure you get the picture.

[chadk66]

Its a level playing field. Most everyone who currently has a rebate didnt start out with one...they all started off as 2 dollar bettors decades ago and worked their way up the ladder. Its fair for everyone, everyone has to start at the bottom, that's the way it works in every walk of life.

Trifectas that pay 400 now, that used to pay 500 has absolutely nothing to do with rebates, it has to do with the players getting better. There's more information out there, the horsebettors are smarter, its harder to win, but don't confuse that with rebates, they have nothing to do with each other.

If you make a win bet with no rebate into a 15% takeout, they take 15 cents from your 1 dollar whether there are rebate bettors in the pool or not. You know the takeout before you bet, when you place that bet you essentially agree to having 15 cents of your 1 dollar taken out....that 15 cents is fixed, it's 15 cents no matter who's betting into that pool.

You say that the rebate model "crushes" the winning combos to their minimum payouts possible....but, what does that have to do with rebates? The computer geniuses who make certain pools more efficient markets are doing so with computers, computer programs and intelligence...the rebate is not a factor. Also, when one combo goes down, another combo goes up. They all don't go down at the same time.

What i think you're talking about is the reason its hard to win these days is the efficiency of the market and the intelligence of the players, which has nothing to do with how certain ADWs deal with profit sharing.

Nothing has changed in the last few decades as far as the betting model is concerned.....in any random race, there are underlays, overlays and horses that are correctly priced......it was that way decades ago, and its that way today..the math part hasnt changed, the only thing that's changed is that its become harder to win because the bettors are smarter, dont confuse smarter bettors with rebates, what an ADW does with their own profits behind the scenes doesnt affect you at all.When I was in my teens I raced motocross. When my youngest son was in his teens I got him started in it also. Here in ND it's a rather small circuit. It's life blood is getting new/younger kids to start in the sport. If you don't get them started at age 5-8 you won't get them at all basically. The same is true with horse racing. If you don't get the teenagers interested at that age, chances are you'll never get them interested at all.

[Cannon shell]

Even if it were easy to do, what happens when people come out and see what is really going on?
People only believe what they want to believe. The number 1 sport in American is populated with criminals with many of them also illegally enhanced via PED's but because it is a great sport to bet on and play fantasy games with that little fact is generally ignored.

Perception is far easier to sell than reality. All you have to do is make people believe what they want to believe. The dopes at the Jockey Club haven't quite figured this basic truth out and have unwittingly created a perception that is actually far worse than the reality.

[Cannon shell]

When I was in my teens I raced motocross. When my youngest son was in his teens I got him started in it also. Here in ND it's a rather small circuit. It's life blood is getting new/younger kids to start in the sport. If you don't get them started at age 5-8 you won't get them at all basically. The same is true with horse racing. If you don't get the teenagers interested at that age, chances are you'll never get them interested at all.
This is nonsense. Teenagers are the absolute worst demographic to chase. Not only are they targeted by a million other forms of entertainment but they arent even legal to bet till 18 and even then how much disposable income do 18 year olds have?

[proximity]

How many of you have ever had a GM or a track "higher up" approach you at the track and say "thanks for coming, how is your experience so far?" And then add "if there's any questions you might have, here's my card, feel free to call"
.

nothing like that, but pre-racino there was much more of a management presence at penn national. phil o'hara, rick schnaars, and even jon schuster who was a good employee who left to manage ind were almost always around.

[cj]

This is nonsense. Teenagers are the absolute worst demographic to chase. Not only are they targeted by a million other forms of entertainment but they arent even legal to bet till 18 and even then how much disposable income do 18 year olds have?

Agree 100%. Racing should be chasing people with disposable income, not teenagers.

[Jeff P]

From the HANA Blog - Sunday, January 9, 2011...
How Do Sports Bettors & Poker Players Feel About Horse Racing?
Knowing what other skill-game customers think about us, might allow us to fix some of our sports problems. Below they tell you what they think about betting horse racing - unedited, and in their own words...and
73% of HANA members polled in 2009 said takeout was their number one issue. Sports bettors and poker players seem to agree, but it appears in even higher numbers. With them representing a multi-hundred billion dollar market we need and crave, that is not good news, especially since horse racing takeout has been going up, not down.

We clearly have many problems in racing, but to deny that the price of our product is a big one of them, is denying reality.
Read more at the link:
http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2011/01/how-do-sports-bettors-poker-players.html





-jp

.

[Stillriledup]

From the HANA Blog - Sunday, January 9, 2011...
How Do Sports Bettors & Poker Players Feel About Horse Racing?
and

Read more at the link:
http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2011/01/how-do-sports-bettors-poker-players.html





-jp

.

While takeout SEEMS to be the most talked about "reason" that poker players and sports bettors don't follow racing, i think it really comes down to the learning curve. If those same sports/poker bettors were blessed overnight by a magic wand to have an immense knowledge base on horse racing, they would probably be betting the sport, high takeout or no high takeout.

The reverse logic would be a horseplayer who has been following horse racing religiously for decades, has a really strong grasp of the game, holds his own as a bettor....that person, when given the same exact opposite opportunity to "Switch" from horse racing to poker, they're not going to switch because they don't want to 'throw away' all their experience and start a new game (poker/sports) from scratch, even though they can go from a 15% win rake to an approximately 5% win rake in sports betting.

Another thing that hurts sports bettors specifically is the idea that you will lose more bets in horse racing than you lose in sports. In sports, you're guaranteed to hit at least 50% as a coin flip automatically gets you 50% winners just to start. Horse racing is set up where you could lose dozens of bets in a row with no end in sight...that's tough for many people to handle mentally. Sure, the logic is that if you're betting 10 and 20 to 1 shots, you only need 1 out of 10 or one out of 20 to break even....but how many of us can lose 9 in a row waiting for that's 10th pick? Not too many sports bettors are going to lose more than 5 in a row at any stretch and you automatically are "gifted" 50% winners just by playing.

[chadk66]

This is nonsense. Teenagers are the absolute worst demographic to chase. Not only are they targeted by a million other forms of entertainment but they arent even legal to bet till 18 and even then how much disposable income do 18 year olds have?I'm talking about exposure, not getting them to bet when they're 18. It's called planting the seed. It's so basically fundamental it's crazy.

[wiffleball whizz]

Here's one I would do the minute I took over the track....

How bout instead of 2/5 on the board u put a $2.80......I'm trying to go to sleep now I had Yonkers on there was a 1/9......could it be possible to argue that it's possible 1/9 is defrauding the public?? If horse pays 2.10 is that 1/9?

Get rid of the odds.....if there is a 4/5 just put 3.80 the rec player will understand that more.....it can't be argued

Guys lets be honest for 95 percent of horseplayers the takeout is as irrelevant as it comes.....go walk into otb tnrw at 2pm and look at the clowns betting pennsylvania tracks with 26 percent takeout

Takeout and drugs are the 2 most over stated theory's in why horse racing is a dying game...

When a kid is 17 he has his 21st bday circled on his calender to either go to the bar or casino.......the 17 year old doesn't even process the track for his 18 yr old bday

I'm pretty sure manU is in his 20s they should roll out the red carpet for him when he walks into the track him and myself are a rare breed that still go to the track

And exposing a kid to the track in the 14 yr old range is like showing him how to fire up a crack pipe.....your trying to get him to gamble on sometimg that 95 percent of people get buried.com

[Stillriledup]

Here's one I would do the minute I took over the track....

How bout instead of 2/5 on the board u put a $2.80......I'm trying to go to sleep now I had Yonkers on there was a 1/9......could it be possible to argue that it's possible 1/9 is defrauding the public?? If horse pays 2.10 is that 1/9?

Get rid of the odds.....if there is a 4/5 just put 3.80 the rec player will understand that more.....it can't be argued

Guys lets be honest for 95 percent of horseplayers the takeout is as irrelevant as it comes.....go walk into otb tnrw at 2pm and look at the clowns betting pennsylvania tracks with 26 percent takeout

Takeout and drugs are the 2 most over stated theory's in why horse racing is a dying game...

When a kid is 17 he has his 21st bday circled on his calender to either go to the bar or casino.......the 17 year old doesn't even process the track for his 18 yr old bday

I'm pretty sure manU is in his 20s they should roll out the red carpet for him when he walks into the track him and myself are a rare breed that still go to the track

And exposing a kid to the track in the 14 yr old range is like showing him how to fire up a crack pipe.....your trying to get him to gamble on sometimg that 95 percent of people get buried.com


Ask PA about the old Roosevelt Raceway, they used to have the prices on the board and not the odds.

I think that's the only track i ever remember seeing that...or , maybe Freestate Raceway used to do this too, but Roosevelt is the only track i remember.

[proximity]

Guys lets be honest for 95 percent of horseplayers the takeout is as irrelevant as it comes.....go walk into otb tnrw at 2pm and look at the clowns betting pennsylvania tracks with 26 percent takeout


u still up?? big day tomorrow!!

it comes down to what level of takeout will ultimately maximize track revenues. and it doesn't matter whether players are cognizant of it or not.

hint: it isn't 26%.

[Longshot6977]

Ask PA about the old Roosevelt Raceway, they used to have the prices on the board and not the odds.

I think that's the only track i ever remember seeing that...or , maybe Freestate Raceway used to do this too, but Roosevelt is the only track i remember.

Balmoral still does this on their simo screens. They alternate the odds, then show the win prices.

[wiffleball whizz]

Balmoral still does this on their simo screens. They alternate the odds, then show the win prices.

Yes balmoral does it.....Flamboro used to do it

If you watch balmoral can you explain why you will see a horse win pay 7.80 to win on the infield tote board then they go to the inhouse screen showing priced and then he pays 8.00....it's like they for exactas too....we call it the jersey jingle....I've heard rumors that they shortchange the on track customers cuz they don't pay admission.....anybody have input on this

[wiffleball whizz]

u still up?? big day tomorrow!!

it comes down to what level of takeout will ultimately maximize track revenues. and it doesn't matter whether players are cognizant of it or not.

hint: it isn't 26%.

Yeah I can't fall asleep its brutal......no reason that parx that bangs people for a million a day in casino gambling can't reduce takeout

[thespaah]

For the most part, people are not coming back to the track. It doesn't matter what you do or try. The world has changed. People can enjoy racing from their living room and not pay once cent extra above the cost of a bet.

If you want to get people to bet your product, that is a different story. But attendance? That ship has sailed for most tracks.
I am not so sure that dagger has been twisted just yet.
I think people will go to the track if there is a reason for them to go.
I hate to sound like the proverbial broken record on this....Track managements have done one of two things. Stuck with the "come to the track because we are here" or..They have given up trying to attract customers to their facilities.
Horse racing is perhaps the most poorly marketed leisure time activity of all.
This must change.
Next, the idea of the extended parimutuel meet( over 30 or 40 dates) must be scuttled.
I state this because meets such as Saratoga and Keeneland have no difficulties bringing in large numbers of people.
I believe less is more.

[Track Phantom]

From the HANA Blog - Sunday, January 9, 2011...
How Do Sports Bettors & Poker Players Feel About Horse Racing?
and

Read more at the link:
http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2011/01/how-do-sports-bettors-poker-players.html





-jp

.

Seems to me the takeout rate in the lottery (all forms) dwarfs racing. People drive over two states and stand in line for tickets they have no chance to cash on.

While takeout rate is a MAJOR issue within the dedicated horse racing community, I would be very skeptical that it has even the minutest impact on why people don't go to the races or bet on racing.

I believe the main reason why people don't take racing seriously is (in order):
1. Complexity to master
2. Down time between races (no action - speaking of live racing)
3. Integrity

[proximity]

Seems to me the takeout rate in the lottery (all forms) dwarfs racing. People drive over two states and stand in line for tickets they have no chance to cash on.

While takeout rate is a MAJOR issue within the dedicated horse racing community, I would be very skeptical that it has even the minutest impact on why people don't go to the races or bet on racing.



in games of skill (racing, sports, blackjack, poker) racing has the highest take by far. what's so special about horseracing that anyone would think the most efficient takeout is 20%??

I admit I don't know too much about lottery, but i'm around these other forms of gambling every week so that is what shapes my perspective.

[Stillriledup]

Yeah I can't fall asleep its brutal......no reason that parx that bangs people for a million a day in casino gambling can't reduce takeout

If they reduce takeout, they will have more people betting their races...if they have "growth" they get farther away from being able to convince the state that the racing operation is a drain on "business".

[Robert Goren]

There is no bigger advocate of takeout reduction than me. As for that bring in new bettors, I am afraid that ship may have already sailed.

[Longshot6977]

Yes balmoral does it.....Flamboro used to do it

If you watch balmoral can you explain why you will see a horse win pay 7.80 to win on the infield tote board then they go to the inhouse screen showing priced and then he pays 8.00....it's like they for exactas too....we call it the jersey jingle....I've heard rumors that they shortchange the on track customers cuz they don't pay admission.....anybody have input on this

I was going to say the same thing in my post, but decided to keep it simple. Exactly right, the off track payouts are actually higher. But simo players don't pay 'admission' either. Are they penalizing those that are on track? Seems to be the opposite of what we would want. It probably has something to do with blended and net pools. But even this doesn't assist a new player since ya gotta get 'em there first.

Promotion/marketing (and not takeout) is the reason new players don't go to the track or even know about horseracing. There are tons of books on poker, and other casino games and on mainstream media. It doesn't exist for racing, except on the big days.

The old timer general executives at racetracks are set in their old ways, or just don't listen well anymore to people's concerns, and got used to patrons flocking into their plant and have just given up or are too stupid (or just don't have the experience) to see they actually had a gambling monopoly and are losing it quickly.

[Cholly]

I don’t have any insight as to whether the current take-out rates on racing are optimal, but maybe it is a red herring to compare them to other gambling options. In blackjack or craps, you’re going to make 60-80 wagers per hour. Even if the rake is only 1.5% per play, the accumulated rake over 30 minutes is a lot greater than racing’s 15-20%. The most uninitiated visitor to the track can make $20 last longer there than at a casino.

Sports betting would seem a more valid comparison. But sports betting doesn’t have to pay for the cost of putting on the show. If tracks didn’t have to pay purses for the races, they’d likely get the take-out rates pretty damn low.

I’m siding with Valento that the larger problem is keeping people entertained during the 30 minutes between races.

[5k-claim]

Seems to me the takeout rate in the lottery (all forms) dwarfs racing. People drive over two states and stand in line for tickets they have no chance to cash on.

While takeout rate is a MAJOR issue within the dedicated horse racing community, I would be very skeptical that it has even the minutest impact on why people don't go to the races or bet on racing.

I believe the main reason why people don't take racing seriously is (in order):
1. Complexity to master
2. Down time between races (no action - speaking of live racing)
3. Integrity I think your top 3 is pretty good, in some order.

As to "integrity", at a casino a new gambler walking in to play a casino game knows precisely who he is betting against, and whose integrity (the casino) they need to trust. In a parimutuel pool of syndicates and loners sitting at home in the dark a potential new gambler really does not know who he is competing against, or more importantly, how much influence they may have. (Real or imagined.)

Wouldn't that fact alone be enough reason for someone new to want (or at least think they want) to choose the casino games over the anonymous parimutuel pool?

.

[Robert Goren]

Seems to me the takeout rate in the lottery (all forms) dwarfs racing. People drive over two states and stand in line for tickets they have no chance to cash on.

While takeout rate is a MAJOR issue within the dedicated horse racing community, I would be very skeptical that it has even the minutest impact on why people don't go to the races or bet on racing.

I believe the main reason why people don't take racing seriously is (in order):
1. Complexity to master
2. Down time between races (no action - speaking of live racing)
3. IntegrityWhat do you purpose that racing do about those issues ? Racing is going to dis appear unless it addresses it problems.

[elhelmete]

These aren't suggestions so much as they are observations.

First off, my home track, Santa Anita, does a very good job at customer service, IMHO. I take work groups out there once a year, go a ton on my own, with my family etc. I'm also a small-time syndicate partner and can't complain about that either. Therefore, my observations are SoCal-centric but not exclusively so.

1) I pay admission to get in, but it's never quite clear to me where I can or can't "sit." At some tracks, the good boxes are guarded like Jack Benny's basement vault even though two-thirds of them have cobwebs on them. Surely there's a way to make sure Richie Richowner's box is available to him for two Saturdays a year, while also allowing the track to make it available to Joe Punter the rest of the time.

2) Not sure there's anything to be done about this, but most tracks I've been to (probably due to age) are rabbit warrens. It's hard to tell where to go vs. where is off limits. In my early days, this was a little intimidating, and the surly workers at _____ Downs back east where I started didn't help. I felt like I was being chased out of places that looked open to the public. I almost feel like a track should artfully seal off unused areas; leaving them visible and quasi-open looks depressing to me.

3) Related to #1. The best seating/access should be dynamically made available to anyone, any day (dress code and other such rules could still apply). Someone from LiveNation or Ticketmaster could come up with a way to make sure VIPs are well taken care of on the few days where they show up in numbers that might actually require accommodations. One time I hosted a group of 35 at the track and they seated us in the usual group section but we were separated by a sea of empty boxes closer to the finish line that could have easily been given to us.

[wiffleball whizz]

At Maryland live casino there are currently 350 people in line waiting to get a seat to play poker....75 percent of the people are under 40....

Timonium is 20 minutes away with a fair

Laurel is 15 min with simulcast

For these 350 people waiting on line for 4 hours is better then gambling or learning to gamble on horses.......

Yes the number 1 reason is that the racing form is $7 and impossible to read and understand and 30 min between racing

Also racing cant compete with football....nobody loves to spend there down time at the track firing away more then me but I won't go thur and sat now cus of college football.....

Deadgame.edu

[affirmedny]

Yes balmoral does it.....Flamboro used to do it

If you watch balmoral can you explain why you will see a horse win pay 7.80 to win on the infield tote board then they go to the inhouse screen showing priced and then he pays 8.00....it's like they for exactas too....we call it the jersey jingle....I've heard rumors that they shortchange the on track customers cuz they don't pay admission.....anybody have input on this

yes they charge 1 pct surcharge for wagers made ON TRACK. How's that for customer service?

[Cannon shell]

I'm talking about exposure, not getting them to bet when they're 18. It's called planting the seed. It's so basically fundamental it's crazy.
Millions of people play slots in casinos. Virtually none of them had slot machine or casino seeds planted when they were teenagers.

[Cannon shell]

Yeah I can't fall asleep its brutal......no reason that parx that bangs people for a million a day in casino gambling can't reduce takeout
I have not seen a single sign that Parx management has any desire to grow its horseracing business.

[Jeff P]

I have not seen a single sign that Parx management has any desire to grow its horseracing business.

Now THAT is something we both agree on!


-jp

.

[Cannon shell]

Seems to me the takeout rate in the lottery (all forms) dwarfs racing. People drive over two states and stand in line for tickets they have no chance to cash on.

While takeout rate is a MAJOR issue within the dedicated horse racing community, I would be very skeptical that it has even the minutest impact on why people don't go to the races or bet on racing.

I believe the main reason why people don't take racing seriously is (in order):
1. Complexity to master
2. Down time between races (no action - speaking of live racing)
3. Integrity
I have a hard time believing that people that dont follow racing are concerned about downtime between races or integrity.

As for takeout it has to be a chief reason why an educated gambler who doesn't play the races may be cautious to try.

[Cannon shell]

At Maryland live casino there are currently 350 people in line waiting to get a seat to play poker....75 percent of the people are under 40....

Timonium is 20 minutes away with a fair

Laurel is 15 min with simulcast

For these 350 people waiting on line for 4 hours is better then gambling or learning to gamble on horses.......

Yes the number 1 reason is that the racing form is $7 and impossible to read and understand and 30 min between racing

Also racing cant compete with football....nobody loves to spend there down time at the track firing away more then me but I won't go thur and sat now cus of college football.....

Deadgame.edu
I dont believe that people who will stand in line for hours to play poker can't understand basic horse racing handicapping.

And what is this talk about 30 minutes between races? Has simulcasting been eliminated?

[thaskalos]

I dont believe that people who will stand in line for hours to play poker can't understand basic horse racing handicapping.

And what is this talk about 30 minutes between races? Has simulcasting been eliminated?
Boredom never enters the picture...IMO; there are races going off at a rapid rate.

Yes...the horseplayer can say that he is being "selective" in his wagering, and that there often is a great deal of time in-between bets...but you never hear the poker player making the same complaint. The poker player too waits for considerable time in-between playable hands.

[Cannon shell]

Boredom never enters the picture...IMO; there are races going off at a rapid rate.

Yes...the horseplayer can say that he is being "selective" in his wagering, and that there often is a great deal of time in-between bets...but you never hear the poker player making the same complaint. The poker player too waits for considerable time in-between playable hands.
Sure there are similarities and differences but racing should be capitalizing on societies willingness to see gambling as a acceptable social activity yet the pretty horse, pageantry bullshit persists.

As I see it the problem racing faces is that getting people to the racetrack is by far the best way to create new customers but once they become regulars their physical presence isnt nearly as important as getting their handle in the pools by the most convenient way possible. In other words it is pretty damn hard to create horseracing players without getting them to the track and explaining to them what is going on and letting them see that you can wager a small amount and win alot AND that the results aren't just random occurrences. However once they become players we need them to participate in the pools even those days when they cant actually be at the track.

[thaskalos]

Sure there are similarities and differences but racing should be capitalizing on societies willingness to see gambling as a acceptable social activity yet the pretty horse, pageantry bullshit persists.

As I see it the problem racing faces is that getting people to the racetrack is by far the best way to create new customers but once they become regulars their physical presence isnt nearly as important as getting their handle in the pools by the most convenient way possible. In other words it is pretty damn hard to create horseracing players without getting them to the track and explaining to them what is going on and letting them see that you can wager a small amount and win alot AND that the results aren't just random occurrences. However once they become players we need them to participate in the pools even those days when they cant actually be at the track.

The problem is that some people have spent a lot of money to build some great-looking racetracks...and these people are a little slow to adjust to an atmosphere of empty grandstands. For too long, the racing "industry" emphasized the "majesty" of the horse instead of the attraction of gambling in their promotion of this game...and I think they actually ended up believing their own PR. They actually thought that a significant portion of the gambling public would still choose the majesty of the racetrack over the stuffy surroundings of the OTB...or the 'loneliness" of the computer.

The industry actually believed they they were "putting on a show"...instead of just running a gambling game.

They thought that they could have their cake and eat it too...

[Cannon shell]

The problem is that some people have spent a lot of money to build some great-looking racetracks...and these people are a little slow to adjust to an atmosphere of empty grandstands. For too long, the racing "industry" emphasized the "majesty" of the horse instead of the attraction of gambling in their promotion of this game...and I think they actually ended up believing their own PR. They actually thought that a significant portion of the gambling public would still choose the majesty of the racetrack over the stuffy surroundings of the OTB...or the 'loneliness" of the computer.

The industry actually believed they they were "putting on a show"...instead of just running a gambling game.

They thought that they could have their cake and eat it too...
While agreeing with some of the sentiments what track has been built recently that is empty?
The "new" GP is usually well attended
The "new" Parx has very little horseracing space
The "new" Meadowlands is downsizing considerably
AP which is hardly new is a well attended track
The "new" Penn Nat'l has a small racetrack space
PID has a small racetrack area.

Most of the big, seemingly empty tracks were built in a different era.
Management might be out to lunch but the facilities they have are rarely the result of anything the current people have done.

[thaskalos]

While agreeing with some of the sentiments what track has been built recently that is empty?
The "new" GP is usually well attended
The "new" Parx has very little horseracing space
The "new" Meadowlands is downsizing considerably
AP which is hardly new is a well attended track
The "new" Penn Nat'l has a small racetrack space
PID has a small racetrack area.

Most of the big, seemingly empty tracks were built in a different era.
Management might be out to lunch but the facilities they have are rarely the result of anything the current people have done.

All I know is that it's pretty lonely at Arlington Park on weekdays...and it's a magnificent racetrack.

[Cannon shell]

All I know is that it's pretty lonely at Arlington Park on weekdays...and it's a magnificent racetrack.
Maybe Thursdays. They only run 4 days a week and Friday is always packed and they do well on weekends too.

[thaskalos]

Maybe Thursdays. They only run 4 days a week and Friday is always packed and they do well on weekends too.

Arlington Park is greatly dissatisfied with the live attendance that they attract. Believe me...they don't think that they are "doing well".

[Cannon shell]

Arlington Park is greatly dissatisfied with the live attendance that they attract. Believe me...they don't think that they are "doing well".
I spent two years stabled there recently. Despite your assertions, the track on the twilight cards was always very busy and they did well attendance-wise on weekends.

If management there isn't satisfied its because the lords at CDI expect too much or want to paint a picture of despair to get a more favorable status for expanded gaming.

[chadk66]

Boredom never enters the picture...IMO; there are races going off at a rapid rate.

Yes...the horseplayer can say that he is being "selective" in his wagering, and that there often is a great deal of time in-between bets...but you never hear the poker player making the same complaint. The poker player too waits for considerable time in-between playable hands.that was always the age old argument "too much time between races". Now that's been proven to not be the case.

[thaskalos]

that was always the age old argument "too much time between races". Now that's been proven to not be the case.

It's always been a bullshit argument...IMO.

If there is one thing that can be said with certainty about this game as it's currently played...it's that it isn't boring for the relative newcomer.

It might be boring for the serious player who considers profit to be his main motivation...but the same can be said about profit-minded gamblers everywhere.

Expert poker players are also bored while they play...and so are expert sports bettors, and expert blackjack players.

Boredom is always a part of the serious, profit-minded game.

[VeryOldMan]

If there is one thing that can be said with certainty about this game as it's currently played...it's that it isn't boring for the relative newcomer.


I respect your opinion; I'm not sure about this part.

Let's go back to the OP about the casual fan. In the old days, we went to the track and it was the only legal betting opportunity in our jurisdiction (pre lottery). There wasn't simulcasting/ADW/etc. Waiting 25-30 minutes between races was what we did. The game as it is currently played isn't "boring" for the relative newcomer because it is completely bewildering. I've seen it first-hand at my local racino - the people who show up to gamble and have some fun are at the slot machines and the table games, and they never venture over to the live horse racing, which can actually be compelling from a fan experience.

[Robert Goren]

It's always been a bullshit argument...IMO.

If there is one thing that can be said with certainty about this game as it's currently played...it's that it isn't boring for the relative newcomer.

It might be boring for the serious player who considers profit to be his main motivation...but the same can be said about profit-minded gamblers everywhere.

Expert poker players are also bored while they play...and so are expert sports bettors, and expert blackjack players.

Boredom is always a part of the serious, profit-minded game.But we are talking about beginners, not serious players, aren't we?

[thaskalos]

I respect your opinion; I'm not sure about this part.

Let's go back to the OP about the casual fan. In the old days, we went to the track and it was the only legal betting opportunity in our jurisdiction (pre lottery). There wasn't simulcasting/ADW/etc. Waiting 25-30 minutes between races was what we did. The game as it is currently played isn't "boring" for the relative newcomer because it is completely bewildering. I've seen it first-hand at my local racino - the people who show up to gamble and have some fun are at the slot machines and the table games, and they never venture over to the live horse racing, which can actually be compelling from a fan experience.

I agree about the game being "bewildering" to the newcomer...how can I deny that?

I was only objecting to the argument that people have to "wait 20-30 minutes in-between races".

Here, IMO, is the main problem that horse racing faces in its attempt to attract not only casual fans...but also fans who are inclined to bet money on the game on a semi-regular basis: The game just does not look like a good "gamble" to the relative newcomer...and he does not take it seriously enough to bet money on it. And I'm not talking about the "integrity" or the "takeout" factors when I say this.

This game can totally frustrate and completely discourage the relative beginner who decides to visit the OTB for a night or two. Even if this guy knows a little something about handicapping...the odds of not even cashing a single ticket are very high...and that's very disheartening. This even happens to us "veterans". There are better games for the beginning player at the casino...where he is guaranteed to collect on his share of bets...even if he loses in the end. Horse racing is unforgiving in its treatment of beginning players...and even the wily veterans are left scratching their heads after many of the results that they see.

Even in the game's most marquee races...the ones that get all the publicity, and are viewed by all the interested beginners that this game is trying to attract...the outcomes of these races make little sense from a handicapping perspective, most of the time. Not only do the horses who receive most of the pre-race publicity fail to deliver according to expectations...but the winners are most often horses who are not even MENTIONED by the TV analysts before the race.

The experienced player understands and embraces the chaos factor inherent in the game...but can we blame the newcomer for not taking this game seriously enough to bet on...when even the "experts" on TV are wrong so often on all these high-publicized races?

If I were a young person with the inclination to get introduced to horse racing, and maybe bet a little money on it...what path would I take right from the start? Would I start reading handicapping books right off the bat...and start tracking my bets on paper before making a single real wager?

Of course not. No newcomer to a game does this...whether it's a gambling game or not.

The interested beginner wants to try the game first...albeit in a very limited way. He is going to actually show up at a track or a casino...and make some small bets. And the "fun" that he has there will be directly related to the effect that these bets will induce.

If he "wins some and loses some", then he might say that he had fun even if he lost overall...and he might choose to return.

But what will happen if he loses them all...while seeing that all those around him are losing as well?

And that's what usually happens at the track or the OTB...

The new players come and go...and only the same old "regulars" remain.

[thespaah]

Message to track management and horsemen:

Racing isn't about pageantry. It's about something called GAMBLING.

Hint: You are in the business of selling exacta tickets. (You are not - repeat not - in the entertainment business.)

Open your eyes. Where has the crowd gone? (Not guys like me who are hard core horseplayers betting horses in a serious way... but people who are looking to get their GAMBLING itch scratched and at the same time have a little fun... You know, the crowd that USED to show up at the track and fill the grandstand whenever you opened the doors?)

That crowd hasn't disappeared. FYI the percentage of them per capita is about the same today as it always was. FYI, because of a little something called population growth their numbers are at an all time high.

Where are they? (And where do they go to get their GAMBLING itch scratched?)

You'll find them at the casino.

Why?

No way to sugar coat it...

IT'S THE TAKEOUT STUPID.
The average payback for each $1.00 bet into a slot machine is about 92-93 cents. Last time I checked, in Las Vegas the number was between 94 and 95 cents.

But put another way: The avg "vig" or "takeout" nationally for slot machine play is approximately 7% to 8%.

Now compare that to racing's blended takeout of about 22%. (If you don't think that takeout plays a major role in driving your customers to the competition you are living in denial.)

IT'S ABOUT INTEGRITY STUPID.
Go to Las Vegas. Walk into any casino and LOOK UP. Those funny looking bubbles mounted in the ceiling? Security cameras. Take a few minutes and Google the statutes on cheating. (Hint: You don't want to get caught cheating in a casino.) Think JAIL TIME and a criminal record.

As a result, the betting public (the crowd you want at the track) accepts at face value that the games in a casino are run on the up and up from an integrity standpoint.

Umm... Racing doesn't enjoy that.

Because of odds that change after the bell and failure to deal harshly with those caught cheating through the use of drugs: The betting public (the crowd you want at the track) has little or no faith that horse racing is run on the up and up from an integrity of the game standpoint.

I know, many of you with racing related jobs will disagree with that...

You'll say instead say that "Racing has a perception problem."

Trouble is, the betting public (the crowd you want at your track) isn't buying it - and hasn't been buying it for the longest time.

They are staying away and getting their gambling itched scratched at the casino.

Want the betting public to show up on track again?

It's certainly doable. But you've got your work cut out for you.

The three elephants sitting in your living room?

1. Takeout.

2. Odds that change after the bell.

3. Drugs.

Until or unless you take the big three on in a serious way, expect to continue losing market share to your competitors.




-jp

.
Take out is not going to change.
I have maintained the following theory for the last oh 15 or 20 years. Anyway, I believe most state politicians where pari-mutuel racing is legal, merely tolerate horse racing and but for the fact that racetracks generate revenue for state coffers, betting on racing would be illegal. Hence, the takeout is the one aspect that keeps racing in business. Lowering it to the point where lowered inbound revenue would be realized, state legislatures start screwing around with the allocation of race dates.
Again this is merely a theory.
Drugs. For a time, NYRA prohibited race day meds. As other states allowed them, NYRA races were seeing smaller fields. So NY State had to allow meds.
I think the Breeders Crown went the right way in banning Lasix.
As far as I am concerned, there should be much tighter control over race day meds. I also think the penalties for using illegal substances should be so draconian, that no trainer or owner would ever THINK of using them.
I think most if not all trainers are well aware of what is right and wrong. Based on that, the first offense should be the LAST offense. In other words, if trainer is caught using illegal PED's or any other banned substance, they should be sent on their way to another career. And maybe even prosecuted.
The tote board issue is one that can be solved only with a tremendous expense to update equipment or a far less expensive solution is available right now. That would be to close betting once the first horse loads.
If there is a gate scratch, it's a refund on all the bets made involving that entry. That's the way NYRA did it.
Will this affect handle? Who knows. Some say yes. The large bettors who 'bet the bell' would object to the ends of the Earth.
Quite frankly I do not see a difference. If one wants to make the last bet, it matters not what time it is.

[thespaah]

I don't agree with this for the majority of the tracks. The ten guys like you at a modest size track isn't going to keep the doors open there. There aren't enough of you. The two dollar better are what keeps the tracks going. And I don't think the take out makes an ounce of difference. If you could quiz every person at the track I'd bet five couldn't tell you what the take out is. Only ones that could are guys like you, which as I indicated are few and far between.
Many years ago on this forum there was a thread regarding takeout.
My response, one for which I was flamed, was that the small amount bettor could not care less or even is aware of takeout.
It used to appear in the DRF as a footnote at the top of the charts in the back of the Form.
I don't bet often, but when I do a whole card or a few tracks, I can churn hundreds of dollars depending on my budget for the day.
The fact that 15% or even 25% of every dollar I wager is siphoned off to the track I am playing never really enters my mind.
I can see however, the large players, the ones that bet thousands on one race and doing this (wagering) for a living, where takeout can be a grave concern. On the other hand, these guys are pouring over ADW's for the best deals and largest rebates.

[thespaah]

I have been. It is similar to Remington in that regard. But, and I say this genuinely, what good is recruiting a bunch of fans that don't bet? Yes, it is better than nothing, but if you are getting a bunch of fans to the track and not teaching them the sport and how to handicap and bet, you are wasting a great opportunity.
Cj..A track has to get the fans through the doors first. After they decide to come back, then the track has an opportunity to get them to make wagers.

[cj]

Cj..A track has to get the fans through the doors first. After they decide to come back, then the track has an opportunity to get them to make wagers.

I agree, but at Remington, they just get them in the doors. Maybe it has changed this year, I haven't been yet, but there was nothing going on that was going to get people to bet.

[Maximillion]

I agree, but at Remington, they just get them in the doors. Maybe it has changed this year, I haven't been yet, but there was nothing going on that was going to get people to bet.

I know im in the minority ...but imo there isnt a better track to bet than Remington from October til closing.

[thespaah]

Seeing children at a race track makes me want to call child services. A race track is not a petting zoo nor should it be. A child has as much business being at race track as they do being at a blackjack table or a slot machine. It really is all about the gambling. It is adult entertainment.
Oh please..
My friend in NY has been taking his son to the track since he was in diapers. He loves it.
The kid is now 8. He picks horses and Dad makes his bets for him. Nothing wrong with that.
There is a difference though with the parent who takes an infant because they cannot find a sitter. That's obnoxious and smacks of poor parenting.
However, to make a blanket statement such as 'kids have no business at the track' is crass and lacks vision.
If you don't want to deal with kids at the track, hole up in the Clubhouse or a private room.

[VeryOldMan]

Here, IMO, is the main problem that horse racing faces in its attempt to attract not only casual fans...but also fans who are inclined to bet money on the game on a semi-regular basis: The game just does not look like a good "gamble" to the relative newcomer...and he does not take it seriously enough to bet money on it. And I'm not talking about the "integrity" or the "takeout" factors when I say this.

This game can totally frustrate and completely discourage the relative beginner who decides to visit the OTB for a night or two. Even if this guy knows a little something about handicapping...the odds of not even cashing a single ticket are very high...and that's very disheartening. This even happens to us "veterans". There are better games for the beginning player at the casino...where he is guaranteed to collect on his share of bets...even if he loses in the end. Horse racing is unforgiving in its treatment of beginning players...and even the wily veterans are left scratching their heads after many of the results that they see.


And on this part we couldn't agree more - particularly the part I've bolded. I've made the analogy previously in this thread - beginning poker players don't have to sit at the table with Phil Ivey, Doyle Brunson, etc. (choose whomever you think of as an extremely advantaged pro poker player). Beginning horse racing fans are playing against their equivalent from day one. Throw in the high takeout levels and it's no wonder why this sport is like a slowly-deflating balloon.

[thespaah]

It isn't a fallacy, the people you mention bet very little. If you want them to bet more, they need to be educated on the sport, or they disappear.
True. They need to be taught the basics.
They can learn the more advanced stuff later.
Just because newcomers don't bet much when they start is no reason to give up on them before they start.
Like any other activity, everyone has to learn some time.
Tracks must be convinced to market themselves as an entertainment venue.
Just as though they went to a ball game or a show.
They are spending money. They have to be shown that while yes they are gambling, they should have a set budget for the evening, same as they would have with any other form of entertainment.
Once they get the hang of it, they will be back.
What we have here is a situation where all bettors must be educated to know they are all in this together. That no one's money is more important than anyone else's. Let the track management take care of that. What I mean by that is let the track management take care of the whales. And they should.
At the same time however, the newbies should be welcomed with perks as well.

[thespaah]

Yes, but you need to actually sign up for an account, give a SS number and other private info as well as fund the account....its a process and people who bet lotteries will just continue to bet lotteries and their 'lottery' money won't find its way into the horse racing pools. I have to admit, i would rather have non racing fans be able to just bet, anonymously, at 7-11 and have their money go into the pools.....the ADW requiring those bettors to 'sign up' with a SS number and a lot of other info does me no good....it just puts one more roadblock in my way of getting more sucker money in the pools.
I believe the reason for the collection of personal info by ADW's is due to the hodgepodge of betting laws across the country.
The info is used to identify those who can legally wager through a particular ADW.
It really is a big PITA.
I think it is absurd that a person cannot make a wager based on the soil on which he stands.
Anyway, for the bettor who does reside in a state where wagering is legal, it's a lot to get through the ADW application process.
Hardly the point. The subject here is getting people to the track. OTW's ADW's are set up so that people do not have to go to the track.

[thespaah]

I don't think people betting in a 7-11 are going to be playing P5s or P6s. Just my opinion, but they already have the lottery to win thousands, even millions for small amounts. You think anyone in this industry is going to seed the pool like they do in France? We've seen guaranteed pools, but they are almost invariably on days when everyone knows the pool will be big anyway.

And, people can actually watch the lottery draw on TV. Most people can't watch horse racing right now.
I beg to differ.
There are many different avenues to watch live racing. HRTV and TVG..Plus for those willing to pay, RTN.
On line , we again have RTN. Then many tracks send their signals out to the internet through their websites.
I think it's silly for NYRA to be saddled with a ridiculous law that prohibits the live signal to go out over the internet.
In any event, if one is resourceful enough, they can find live racing to watch.
Once again though, we are discussing getting new people to the track.
Yes, putting races on live tv would help in bunches. So on that note you are spot on. TV is the initial exposure that Horse racing needs.

[thespaah]

That because the tracks are trying to get cheap labor. Hiring a young person means full time wages and benefits.
That's baloney. Regardless of the age of the worker, it's a part time job.
And what is wrong wiht paying what amounts to a low skill job an appropriate wage? Nothing.
Older people can smile and be pleasant too. In fact, they are more likely to act that way.

[thespaah]

You are being ridiculous.
I agree...Such cynicism. :ThmbDown:

[chadk66]

Many years ago on this forum there was a thread regarding takeout.
My response, one for which I was flamed, was that the small amount bettor could not care less or even is aware of takeout.
It used to appear in the DRF as a footnote at the top of the charts in the back of the Form.
I don't bet often, but when I do a whole card or a few tracks, I can churn hundreds of dollars depending on my budget for the day.
The fact that 15% or even 25% of every dollar I wager is siphoned off to the track I am playing never really enters my mind.
I can see however, the large players, the ones that bet thousands on one race and doing this (wagering) for a living, where takeout can be a grave concern. On the other hand, these guys are pouring over ADW's for the best deals and largest rebates.The Casino's in ND take 20 percent on the slots. Nobody bitches about that.

[Cannon shell]

The Casino's in ND take 20 percent on the slots. Nobody bitches about that.
People who play slots are generally too stupid to care about take out.

[thespaah]

I agree, but at Remington, they just get them in the doors. Maybe it has changed this year, I haven't been yet, but there was nothing going on that was going to get people to bet.
And that is step two. Getting them to bet.

[cj]

I beg to differ.
There are many different avenues to watch live racing. HRTV and TVG..Plus for those willing to pay, RTN.
On line , we again have RTN. Then many tracks send their signals out to the internet through their websites.
I think it's silly for NYRA to be saddled with a ridiculous law that prohibits the live signal to go out over the internet.
In any event, if one is resourceful enough, they can find live racing to watch.
Once again though, we are discussing getting new people to the track.
Yes, putting races on live tv would help in bunches. So on that note you are spot on. TV is the initial exposure that Horse racing needs.

People who are only betting racing in lottery type bets through 7-11 are not going to jump through hoops to watch racing. Yes, players like you and I will make sure we have a way to watch, but that isn't the context my post was made.

[Robert Goren]

Take out is not going to change.
I have maintained the following theory for the last oh 15 or 20 years. Anyway, I believe most state politicians where pari-mutuel racing is legal, merely tolerate horse racing and but for the fact that racetracks generate revenue for state coffers, betting on racing would be illegal. Hence, the takeout is the one aspect that keeps racing in business. Lowering it to the point where lowered inbound revenue would be realized, state legislatures start screwing around with the allocation of race dates.
Again this is merely a theory.
Drugs. For a time, NYRA prohibited race day meds. As other states allowed them, NYRA races were seeing smaller fields. So NY State had to allow meds.
I think the Breeders Crown went the right way in banning Lasix.
As far as I am concerned, there should be much tighter control over race day meds. I also think the penalties for using illegal substances should be so draconian, that no trainer or owner would ever THINK of using them.
I think most if not all trainers are well aware of what is right and wrong. Based on that, the first offense should be the LAST offense. In other words, if trainer is caught using illegal PED's or any other banned substance, they should be sent on their way to another career. And maybe even prosecuted.
The tote board issue is one that can be solved only with a tremendous expense to update equipment or a far less expensive solution is available right now. That would be to close betting once the first horse loads.
If there is a gate scratch, it's a refund on all the bets made involving that entry. That's the way NYRA did it.
Will this affect handle? Who knows. Some say yes. The large bettors who 'bet the bell' would object to the ends of the Earth.
Quite frankly I do not see a difference. If one wants to make the last bet, it matters not what time it is. It generates very little revenue for state coffers. In most states the state share of the takeout is less than 2% and barely cover the regulation of the sport(drug testing etc ). That was not always true but is today. The money that use to go to the state now goes to purse. The horsemen have been at the feet of state legislatures for years begging for money using the argument that if racing shuts down in state, jobs will be lost. The only effect I have seen of transferring parts of the takeout to purses and raising takeouts for purses over the years is fewer bettors and higher yearling prices. Neither is good thing for the game. When I started going to race, the take out in Nebraska was 12% and 5% went to the state and the game was booming. The takeout is now 18% with a little over 1% going to the state and the game is all but dead. The dynamite combination of casinos in bordering states and higher takeouts for the benefit of the horsemen have killed the game here. I don't think anything can be done at this point to save the game here.

[Cannon shell]

It generates very little revenue for state coffers. In most states the state share of the takeout is less than 2% and barely cover the regulation of the sport(drug testing etc ). That was not always true but is today. The money that use to go to the state now goes to purse. The horsemen have been at the feet of state legislatures for years begging for money using the argument that if racing shuts down in state, jobs will be lost. The only effect I have seen of transferring parts of the takeout to purses and raising takeouts for purses over the years is fewer bettors and higher yearling prices. Neither is good thing for the game. When I started going to race, the take out in Nebraska was 12% and 5% went to the state and the game was booming. The takeout is now 18% with a little over 1% going to the state and the game is all but dead. The dynamite combination of casinos in bordering states and higher takeouts for the benefit of the horsemen have killed the game here. I don't think anything can be done at this point to save the game here.
This is wildly inaccurate.

[Robert Goren]

This is wildly inaccurate. What is inaccurate about it? I have playing this game for 45 years and watch everything in my post come about. I spent quite some time a few years ago trying to find out how much the took out of the mutual pools and could not find one state where the takeout going to the state was more than 2%. The average was probably very close to 1%. If you can prove otherwise, please post your results here. They used to post the takeout rate in the DRF. There is place on line where you can look at some forms from the 1960s and if you look long enough you will find the takeout rates and their breakdown in them. You are going have to better than " wildly inaccurate".
The horsemen are still using the jobs argument today in Nebraska in an attempt to get racinos. It isn't working here. This state is not going legalize casino gambling at race track or any place else anytime soon in this state. I know because I worked on two attempts to get casino gambling legalized here.

[Cannon shell]

What is inaccurate about it? I have playing this game for 45 years and watch everything in my post come about. I spent quite some time a few years ago trying to find out how much the took out of the mutual pools and could not find one state where the takeout going to the state was more than 2%. The average was probably very close to 1%. If you can prove otherwise, please post your results here. They used to post the takeout rate in the DRF. There is place on line where you can look at some forms from the 1960s and if you look long enough you will find the takeout rates and their breakdown in them. You are going have to better than " wildly inaccurate".
The horsemen are still using the jobs argument today in Nebraska in an attempt to get racinos. It isn't working here. This state is not going legalize casino gambling at race track or any place else anytime soon in this state. I know because I worked on two attempts to get casino gambling legalized here.
The jobs argument happens to be pretty accurate. There is a pretty large economic impact created by a live racing and breeding program. Check the AHC's website for the details.

As for the idea that horsemen are getting a greater % of the takeout at the expense of the state gov't is crazy. "Takeout" is a complicated subject due to the wide variety of sources of handle. One of the fights the HBPA had in KY was when CDI bought youbet, CDI decided that they were going to try to push on track handle, off track because the purse account only received 3.5% from a bet through an ADW while it was getting close to 7% on track. In other words if the handle remained the same the purses would actually wind up being smaller. So considering the blended take is roughly 21% in KY where was the other 14-18% going? Not to purses. In the 60's everything was cut and dry because every bet was an on track bet. No simulcasting, no ADW's, no interstate wagers, no source fees, no third paty distributors of the signal, etc...

[Jeff P]

Someone mentioned state lotteries a few pages back...

Actually lotteries are one area of gambling under the control of state governments where the commissioners themselves not only understand that excessively high takeout has a negative impact on total sales and revenue - but where (in a handful of states) there are documented success stories over the past 20 years or so where states that have tried it have actually been able to increase total dollar revenue flowing back to state coffers by LOWERING THE TAKEOUT.

True story...

In 2010, I attended a CHRB meeting at Santa Anita and presented an argument against the takeout increase at Los Al.

I told the commissioners of the CHRB that their revenue projections were flawed because they had failed to account for the decrease in handle that higher takeout was about to produce. Of course my argument fell on deaf ears and the commissioners voted for higher takeout.

The part I find ironic though isn't the fact that Los Al experienced a 27% drop in on track handle during the six month period immediately following their takeout increase...

No.

The ironic part is that on the very same Thursday morning that the above mentioned CHRB meeting was takeing place, the Governor of CA signed a bill into law authorizing the CA Lottery Commission free reign to LOWER THE TAKEOUT on scratchers tickets sold in California.

Here's a link to an article where Linh Nguyen Acting Director of the California Lottery was interviewed about the uptick in performance of the Lottery in CA as a result of the bill:
http://www.publicgaming.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9590:public-gamin..



Let’s start with AB 142.

L. Nguyen: We had put together the 3-year plan with the hope that we would be able to increase prize payouts. We knew the plan would help us grow sales, but we also knew that an increase in prize payouts would help us grow sales substantially more. In April 2010, we got our wish when Assembly Bill 142 was signed into law. Overnight, we went from having one of the most restrictive statutes on prize payouts to one of the most flexible. AB 142 eliminated the 34% requirement for education and replaced it with a requirement that we manage our prize payouts in a way that maximizes funding for education. It reduced our administrative expenditure cap from 16% to 13%. It also has minimum performance requirements that, if not met, would trigger the repeal of our flexibility and revert to the old formula.

Increasing the prize payout percentage improves the product’s value to the consumer, provides us with a powerful message that gets consumer attention, and gives us a tool to drives sales and profits. A relatively small increase in prize payout percentage can be leveraged into a much more significant increase in top-line sales.

That seems like well-constructed legislation, giving the lottery some flexibility to put its money where its mouth is, but then also enabling the legislature to reassert control if the performance targets were not achieved.

L. Nguyen: I think it was very well constructed in that it did not establish a specific prize payout level or profit requirement. Instead, it trusted the Lottery Commission to set prizes at a level that would maximize funding for education. The minimum performance levels in the bill effectively protect the interests of the legislature, the voters of California and stakeholders in education. At the same time, it provides the lottery with the flexibility to quickly boost performance in the short-term and build brand equity and sustainability for the long-term.


-jp

.

[wiffleball whizz]

Laurel park can thank college football tonight for costing them about 1200 in simulcast handle tonight

F***em

[Stillriledup]

Laurel park can thank college football tonight for costing them about 1200 in simulcast handle tonight

F***em
The Freak is in action (no, not Lincecum) what do you expect!

[thespaah]

People who are only betting racing in lottery type bets through 7-11 are not going to jump through hoops to watch racing. Yes, players like you and I will make sure we have a way to watch, but that isn't the context my post was made.
Ok...Wasn't sure I was missing something.

[thespaah]

What is inaccurate about it? I have playing this game for 45 years and watch everything in my post come about. I spent quite some time a few years ago trying to find out how much the took out of the mutual pools and could not find one state where the takeout going to the state was more than 2%. The average was probably very close to 1%. If you can prove otherwise, please post your results here. They used to post the takeout rate in the DRF. There is place on line where you can look at some forms from the 1960s and if you look long enough you will find the takeout rates and their breakdown in them. You are going have to better than " wildly inaccurate".
The horsemen are still using the jobs argument today in Nebraska in an attempt to get racinos. It isn't working here. This state is not going legalize casino gambling at race track or any place else anytime soon in this state. I know because I worked on two attempts to get casino gambling legalized here.
2% of what?

[JohnGalt1]

What is inaccurate about it? I have playing this game for 45 years and watch everything in my post come about. I spent quite some time a few years ago trying to find out how much the took out of the mutual pools and could not find one state where the takeout going to the state was more than 2%. The average was probably very close to 1%. If you can prove otherwise, please post your results here. They used to post the takeout rate in the DRF. There is place on line where you can look at some forms from the 1960s and if you look long enough you will find the takeout rates and their breakdown in them. You are going have to better than " wildly inaccurate".
The horsemen are still using the jobs argument today in Nebraska in an attempt to get racinos. It isn't working here. This state is not going legalize casino gambling at race track or any place else anytime soon in this state. I know because I worked on two attempts to get casino gambling legalized here.


In the Canterbury program they have a diagram of where our wagering dollars go.

80% to betters
10.3% to the track
8.4% to the horsemen
.3% is state revenue tax
1% to Breeder's fund.

I don't know how this compares to other tracks and states.

[Robert Goren]

2% of what?2% of the total handle. Well, at least on track handle. It maybe less for off track handle.

[Robert Goren]

In the Canterbury program they have a diagram of where our wagering dollars go.

80% to betters
10.3% to the track
8.4% to the horsemen
.3% is state revenue tax
1% to Breeder's fund.

I don't know how this compares to other tracks and states.Thank you for posting that.

[Spudnik]

Two words....

Topless Tellers!

Problem solved...

[Longshot6977]

Two words....

Topless Tellers!

Problem solved...

But who wants to see 65 year old (and older) females topless? Or males for that matter? :lol:
Most of the ones I see are seniors. But I'm sure you were kidding, right?

[Stillriledup]

But who wants to see 65 year old (and older) females topless? Or males for that matter? :lol:
Most of the ones I see are seniors. But I'm sure you were kidding, right?

Maybe he's suggesting to "clean house" and get some young, hot chicks working there. But, i have to imagine that if a lot of young chicks were bet takers, i can't see how this would be a bad business decision.