Todd Pletcher

[TheEdge07]

Is he a great trainer?

I dont think he knew Cape Bastone was running in the Kings Bishop?

[nijinski]

Is he a great trainer?

I dont think he knew Cape Bastone was running in the Kings Bishop?


You can never dismiss him with a LS .

[cj]

You can never dismiss him with a LS .

Though he won today, without looking, I will bet he has a dreadful ROI with longshots, say 10-1 or more?

[cj]

Though he won today, without looking, I will bet he has a dreadful ROI with longshots, say 10-1 or more?

I was wrong, it isn't dreadful, but it isn't that good. He wins 5% last five years over 10-1, and returns $1.65 per $2 bet. With horses less than 10 to 1, he returns $1.72.

[wiffleball whizz]

Though he won today, without looking, I will bet he has a dreadful ROI with longshots, say 10-1 or more?

Not sure how to put it into words but when he doesn't have the goods he doesn't win....never pops $18 horses

[nijinski]

Though he won today, without looking, I will bet he has a dreadful ROI with longshots, say 10-1 or more?
and
When you only bet mostly weekends and you might pass a race otherwise .
A small bet is worth it .

[Tom]

When a handful of trainers have most of the good stick,they appear to be look good.

A hell of lot of 14% trainers are far better, imho.

[Stillriledup]

This wasn't a 23-1 shot for ROI purposes, it was equivalent to a 6-1 shot since Pletcher had 2 other runners in the race. 2 dollars to win on each of them was a 6 dollar investment which got you back 43 (equiv to 6 dollars to win on a 6-1 shot).

[Grits]

Pletcher at 8 or 6 to 1 can be a gift. It doesn't have to be 10-1+. I agree with Nijinski. We're not talking betting every day. Weekends or spot plays can be of value. Handicap the race as you would any other. (I think I call it, "can he run to his prior figure two or so back?) As stated I have cashed tickets on this man's horses when more than one is entered in a particular race. Going with the higher priced horse instead of his chalk, or near chalk.

I don't care what the ROI is over 5 years. I just care about the race I'm looking at. ;) And sometime it works.

[lamboguy]

i'll take Lou Ruberto over Todd every single day of the week. all i have ever seen Lou do is improve horses that Pletcher had. i highly doubt that the reverse could ever happen in a million years.

[nat1223]

i'll take Lou Ruberto over Todd every single day of the week. all i have ever seen Lou do is improve horses that Pletcher had. i highly doubt that the reverse could ever happen in a million years. now this might be the statement of the night.:lol:

[wiffleball whizz]

Pletcher at 8 or 6 to 1 can be a gift. It doesn't have to be 10-1+. I agree with Nijinski. We're not talking betting every day. Weekends or spot plays can be of value. Handicap the race as you would any other. (I think I call it, "can he run to his prior figure two or so back?) As stated I have cashed tickets on this man's horses when more than one is entered in a particular race. Going with the higher priced horse instead of his chalk, or near chalk.

I don't care what the ROI is over 5 years. I just care about the race I'm looking at. ;) And sometime it works.

Hi miss grits I hope your enjoying your Saturday evening......if you bet mr pletcher at 6 or 8/1 I'm gonna say the horse is dead as a doornail and will burn up the Money.....also the horse must look like dog food on paper!!!!! Save your Money;)

Have a great weekend!!

[nijinski]

This wasn't a 23-1 shot for ROI purposes, it was equivalent to a 6-1 shot since Pletcher had 2 other runners in the race. 2 dollars to win on each of them was a 6 dollar investment which got you back 43 (equiv to 6 dollars to win on a 6-1 shot).

His running style may have factored in those high odds . He found his
stride today , just in time in a great spot .

[nijinski]

Pletcher at 8 or 6 to 1 can be a gift. It doesn't have to be 10-1+. I agree with Nijinski. We're not talking betting every day. Weekends or spot plays can be of value. Handicap the race as you would any other. (I think I call it, "can he run to his prior figure two or so back?) As stated I have cashed tickets on this man's horses when more than one is entered in a particular race. Going with the higher priced horse instead of his chalk, or near chalk.

I don't care what the ROI is over 5 years. I just care about the race I'm looking at. ;) And sometime it works.

Exactly , and Pletcher I'm sure knew he was a live horse today . He also well knows that things don't always set up for horses like CB often enough but
you take your chances .

[Grits]

Hi miss grits I hope your enjoying your Saturday evening......if you bet mr pletcher at 6 or 8/1 I'm gonna say the horse is dead as a doornail and will burn up the Money.....also the horse must look like dog food on paper!!!!! Save your Money;)

Have a great weekend!!

I'll keep your counsel in mind, Whifflebee. ;) But, few of Todd's horses look like dog food on paper, on track, in their stall, or anywhere else. And thank you, sweetheart, my evening's fine. Just a little Crown and water..

[Grits]

Exactly , and Pletcher I'm sure knew he was a live horse today . He also well knows that things don't always set up for horses like CB often enough but
you take your chances .

Sure he did. Had somebody run his bet to the window, too. No doubt.

I can hear him now, "no, no, not those, not the 2, not the 9. The 3 horse, put my money on the 3." :lol:

[Stillriledup]

Its really hard to determine how great a trainer is because some trainers are great "politicians' and some trainers are not and or, choose not to be. Since politics and the ability to talk and BS people has nothing to do with actual horse training, its hard to know who's really a great horsemen, or who's just appearing to be great because really rich people believe his or her line of BS and entrust them with expensive horses.

Since Pletcher learned the ropes from one of the best politicians and motivational speakers the game has ever seen, its hard to know how much of Pletcher's success is his ability to convince rich, old, set in their ways businessmen to part with millions of dollars at horse auctions. Also, Since Pletcher's owners are very wealthy, they spend a ton of money "behind the scenes" with no expenses spared (i would imagine) not to mention they have a very famous "vet" to visits the barn every now and then.

So, when you have a largely unlimited budget for "Expenses" an unlimited budget to purchase horse flesh and a great vet, you have a huge leg up on the competition, none of that has anything to do with your ability to actually train racehorses.

The one thing that i would be concerned about if i was purchasing a very expensive unraced prospect is that i would not want to give it to a guy who was a great "Talker" because i wouldnt be sure if he was an "elite" trainer because of talking or training. If you give it to a guy who is not known as a "politician" type of guy, you can be sure that guy or gal is where they are due to horsemanship skills and their success has nothing to do with being a great "salesman"

[cj]

Any explanations yet just how bad Verrazano was yesterday? I kind of expected it to be honest and bet against him with a horse that ran worse, but still, it almost defies belief the horse could look that bad.

[lamboguy]

Any explanations yet just how bad Verrazano was yesterday? I kind of expected it to be honest and bet against him with a horse that ran worse, but still, it almost defies belief the horse could look that bad.its not the first time this has happened with his horses. in defense of him, he must have a lot of pressure to run these horses no matter what they look like. the very same thing happened to me a few weeks ago in Saratoga. i had a horse in and she looked awful, i had sold half the horse this group that had their family and friends all there in the paddock. i looked at the horse and bit my lip, i wanted to scratch her in the worst way. i just had no guts to do it to these people. the horse ran around the track dead last and i gave this group my half of the horse after the race and wished them the best of luck.

[bisket]

Any explanations yet just how bad Verrazano was yesterday? I kind of expected it to be honest and bet against him with a horse that ran worse, but still, it almost defies belief the horse could look that bad.


Pletcher always goes for the easy score. The Haskell is always an easy race for a runner like Verrezano. The preps for the Derby are usually an easy score, if you place your horse in the right spot. There are more million dollar races than horses to run in them.... Pletcher always finds the easy spot. When it comes to Pletcher I just think horses like Verrazano are in the Travers, derby, classic etc. for the publicity. They're usually favored because they looked dynamite in a prep, and on everyone's lips. Most people won't even remember the actual winner of yesterdays Travers 10 years from now, but you say Verrazano 10 years from today, and they'll remember him. Only because of all the press leading into the race. When a millionaire that doesn't have a clue sees Verrazano in a foal's lineage 10 years from now, they'll think more highly of that foal, than one from Will Take Charge. Why? because of all the press. You can safely toss a Pletcher horse like Verrazano in any Classic race. He's just there for the press... You have to use the same mentality used for claiming races when your handicapping Pletcher. Which race is the horse just showing up, and which one is he bringing the goods. The easy spot is where Pletcher's runner is bringing it.

[wiffleball whizz]

Pletcher always goes for the easy score. The Haskell is always an easy race for a runner like Verrezano. The preps for the Derby are usually an easy score, if you place your horse in the right spot. There are more million dollar races than horses to run in them.... Pletcher always finds the easy spot. When it comes to Pletcher I just think horses like Verrazano are in the Travers, derby, classic etc. for the publicity. They're usually favored because they looked dynamite in a prep, and on everyone's lips. Most people won't even remember the actual winner of yesterdays Travers 10 years from now, but you say Verrazano 10 years from today, and they'll remember him. Only because of all the press leading into the race. When a millionaire that doesn't have a clue sees Verrazano in a foal's lineage 10 years from now, they'll think more highly of that foal, than one from Will Take Charge. Why? because of all the press. You can safely toss a Pletcher horse like Verrazano in any Classic race. He's just there for the press... You have to use the same mentality used for claiming races when your handicapping Pletcher. Which race is the horse just showing up, and which one is he bringing the goods. The easy spot is where Pletcher's runner is bringing it.

For a horse with "all that press" 9/5 or 8/5 told you horses was stone dead on the board as was orb......why isn't he taking any heat here? Top of the lane he supposed to blow them away.....

I'm not the best flat handicapper in the world but I do know that "the smart money" didn't touch these 2 horses with a 10 foot pole..

After a Haskell win on a nuclear airstrip at mth he should have been 3/5 yesterday....that 5 day detention barn is a nightmare for the superstars

[Stillriledup]

For a horse with "all that press" 9/5 or 8/5 told you horses was stone dead on the board as was orb......why isn't he taking any heat here? Top of the lane he supposed to blow them away.....

I'm not the best flat handicapper in the world but I do know that "the smart money" didn't touch these 2 horses with a 10 foot pole..

After a Haskell win on a nuclear airstrip at mth he should have been 3/5 yesterday....that 5 day detention barn is a nightmare for the superstars

I brought this up before the race, the price, hovering at 8-5 didnt seem to "Reflect" all the "hype" that the horse was getting before the race, some were tossing the S word around....."superstars" aren't 8-5 in horse races too often.

Unless, of course, they're fake superstars....like this one turned out to be.

[wiffleball whizz]

I brought this up before the race, the price, hovering at 8-5 didnt seem to "Reflect" all the "hype" that the horse was getting before the race, some were tossing the S word around....."superstars" aren't 8-5 in horse races too often.

Unless, of course, they're fake superstars....like this one turned out to be.

My fathers friend who is my friend as well for 15 years has been telling me 2 things about horse racing....they are

1. Pick 6s are for 2 people....millionaires are morons...the millionaires who can put in the $6000 tickets and hit them....and the morons who bet $48-$124 tickets that are just throwing money into the garbage can....

2. There's no gifts in horse racing....

Number 2 was a classic example of this yesterday with Verrazano....8/5 wow that's a steal with this horse......stone dead

[Stillriledup]

My fathers friend who is my friend as well for 15 years has been telling me 2 things about horse racing....they are

1. Pick 6s are for 2 people....millionaires are morons...the millionaires who can put in the $6000 tickets and hit them....and the morons who bet $48-$124 tickets that are just throwing money into the garbage can....

2. There's no gifts in horse racing....

Number 2 was a classic example of this yesterday with Verrazano....8/5 wow that's a steal with this horse......stone dead

I calculated that he was a great horse to bet against, what i didnt bank on him being SO "dead" that he couldnt even pressure Moreno, neither could the other TAP horse and that's why Moreno "hung around" and beat my other bets. I needed to think like a visionary and just figure that Moreno was lone speed and on that track, would have a shot to keep going and hit the ticket. I dont mind making a mistake tossing out a short priced horse, but its a terrible feeling when you exclude a huge longshot and that LS comes back to bit you. I just thought Moreno would get pressured hard by someone and his most previous race, at 1 1/8th, he wasnt really pressured hard and folded up like a cheap suit and appeared to not be "finding" thru the wire in that race.

Yesterday's track was a different story.....it essentially turned that mile and a quarter race into a one turn mile for him and he raced accordingly.

[jk3521]

How about he and Randi Persuad switch stables? Then we see how good a trainer Pletcher is! :) And prove how bad a trainer Persaud is ! :D

[RunForTheRoses]

Any explanations yet just how bad Verrazano was yesterday? I kind of expected it to be honest and bet against him with a horse that ran worse, but still, it almost defies belief the horse could look that bad.

Really, if he had prompted the pace and then died it would be one thing but he didn't show up at all.

[Aner]

Horses, like humans, are creatures of habit. When John Velazques said the plan for Verrazano was to get off the rail and stalk both Moreno and Palace Malice, that was a red flag for me. A big race is not the time to experiment.

Now if only someone had told me they planned to run Orb up close, I could have dumped that one too.

[RunForTheRoses]

Horses, like humans, are creatures of habit. When John Velazques said the plan for Verrazano was to get off the rail and stalk both Moreno and Palace Malice, that was a red flag for me. A big race is not the time to experiment.

Now if only someone had told me they planned to run Orb up close, I could have dumped that one too.

Moreno has sure improved in a short time, I didn't think the Dwyer win was too impressive..maybe this thread should be about Guillot as super trainer.. I guess there is one...

[burnsy]

I think Orb had no choice, the pace was a joke for him to win from the get, go. The jockey (Lezcano) did the best he could. Palice Malice broke bad and Moreno was handed a gift. I even thought Verrazano was better than he was....he couldn't even press or keep up with Moreno going this distance. Todd Pletcher is a great trainer, he wins everything and people bend over backwards to get their horses trained by him...........and theres the catch. He is a great promoter and salesman too.........when he gets these "superstars", he has to say good things whether they are or NOT. Thats what these high octane owners want to hear.........Uncle Mo, oh yeah, hes the next Cigar, the truth: but he can't go past 9 furlongs.........these horses are bred on the speed end and when the distances get classic.....they are exposed. How many times will people fall for it? I'll admit i did last year and used Gemologist.....same deal. Verrazano, any race he gets pressure from an equal....hes toast, just like the other so-called "greats" hes had. Forget about his longshots, the best bets are bets AGAINST these kinds of horses. Whats he supposed to say? with horses like this? "They won't make it"..........HOW DO YOU THINK HE GETS THE CLIENTS?????? He knows what to say too......whether its true or not.

[Grits]

Gentlemen, whether you, myself or anyone else thinks Todd's great or not is a moot point.

The simple fact remains, "talk is cheap". If all one is doing is talking, while unable to back up their talk with positive results, they'll flounder. They just get by, so to speak. A fact that is true in this or any other business venture. Last I checked, Todd doesn't do this. He backs up his talk. Somehow, he manages to win a lot of races. A whole lot. I don't really see that he bellows any more than others. He's pretty low key. As far as his relationship with his owners, unless you're one of those, you're going on assumption. You have no idea what he tells them. And its foolish for you to imply that you do!

There are levels of success for trainers in this game who work hard. Some being quite successful without clients that are as wealthy as Todd's or stock that is as expensive.

Great can be a silly word. Great compared to what? ... It doesn't really matter. JMO.

[1st time lasix]

Todd Pletcher is a great trainer. A truly enormous successful American story. His father is a very good man and he has clearly learned from him in numerous areas. He is polite...smart...competetive...... and a terrific judge of horses. Unlike some other unsavory characters too numerous to name.....he has added to the dignity of the game. He is going to the racing Hall of Fame and has certainly earned enough from his expertise to suport hundreds of people in the business. Like "a coaching tree" ---many of his assistants who have learned all aspects of the business from him have moved on and done well. Not sure why this poll even exists...... and anyone who said "no" to the question ...has a ax to grind or is simply a degenerate moron that probably has never met the man. Will probably never figure out why people don't respect another sucessful man's calling. The poll didn't ask if you 'like' him....make money gambling on his entries.... or envy him.

[burnsy]

I mostly agree with that......But he has SO MANY GOOD horses, how can he lose? I'm just saying that these horses they make out to be "the next Secretariat"...the T-shirts, the hype....and you are right the (horse) media types and the bettors bring it on themselves for the most part because he is low key. Still he never says "this horse probably can't make the distance"......I'm saying he knows full well most of these won't....i do and i'm just joe smoe handicapper. He is a great trainer, but he has bosses with money and egos to boot...Verrazzano probably should of been in the Kings Bishop, I'm just saying, he most likely knows that too. If he doesn't take shots and talk these horses up....someone else will. He knows that too. The horse beat low class horses in NJ, the two horses that were competition, got hurt in EACH race. Oh, now hes Lebron James...i saw crap like this all over the place...you are right hes low key but he enters these horses and belly up they go at the longer distances. I put the horse in my pic 4 for a saver but he was no 8-5 shot at that distance.

[wiffleball whizz]

Todd Pletcher is a great trainer. A truly enormous successful American story. His father is a very good man and he has clearly learned from him in numerous areas. He is polite...smart...competetive...... and a terrific judge of horses. Unlike some other unsavory characters too numerous to name.....he has added to the dignity of the game. He is going to the racing Hall of Fame and has certainly earned enough from his expertise to suport hundreds of people in the business. Like "a coaching tree" ---many of his assistants who have learned all aspects of the business from him have moved on and done well. Not sure why this poll even exists...... and anyone who said "no" to the question ...has a ax to grind or is simply a degenerate moron that probably has never met the man. Will probably never figure out why people don't respect another sucessful man's calling. The poll didn't ask if you 'like' him....make money gambling on his entries.... or envy him.

Too many horses vanish into thin air with him....see how many of his horses that are crushing the spa are around later this year and next year

If I had 3 horses they wouldn't go to him....

[Grits]

Burnsy, that axe must be getting pretty heavy.

You have the misconception that these animals make themselves "GOOD HORSES", meaning good racehorses. They do not. I'm sure you understand from their purchase in the sales ring, to breaking, to first 2 year old start, on towards entry in all races that may or may not lead to a career top performance--they are trained. This is not achieved simply because of their confirmation, which doesn't always affirm that a horse is good.

Wifflebee, is correct, maybe we see few of his horses run for years. Matter of fact, we know we don't. But too, wealthy people? They like to do whatever they please with their money, their investments. We don't control that part either, nor does Todd.

Greatness is determined in one's own mind. If they believe in it, let it be so for that person. Its okay if there's not a consensus. We don't all have to present a case for or against. Doing so, online, rarely changes one's mind. ;)

[TheEdge07]

Todd Pletcher is a great trainer. A truly enormous successful American story. His father is a very good man and he has clearly learned from him in numerous areas. He is polite...smart...competetive...... and a terrific judge of horses. Unlike some other unsavory characters too numerous to name.....he has added to the dignity of the game. He is going to the racing Hall of Fame and has certainly earned enough from his expertise to suport hundreds of people in the business. Like "a coaching tree" ---many of his assistants who have learned all aspects of the business from him have moved on and done well. Not sure why this poll even exists...... and anyone who said "no" to the question ...has a ax to grind or is simply a degenerate moron that probably has never met the man. Will probably never figure out why people don't respect another sucessful man's calling. The poll didn't ask if you 'like' him....make money gambling on his entries.... or envy him.


Ever heard of Life At Ten?

[pondman]

For a horse with "all that press" 9/5 or 8/5 told you horses was stone dead on the board as was orb......why isn't he taking any heat here? Top of the lane he supposed to blow them away.....

I'm not the best flat handicapper in the world but I do know that "the smart money" didn't touch these 2 horses with a 10 foot pole..

Smart money? I would have been in the game on Orb and gave up my money if he was +5-1...nobody should be taking 2 or 3-1...on any horse. I'd go with him in his next (at a price.) They'll get another couple million on this horse.

Pletcher did what a trainer should do, try and put another $600,000 into an owners pocket. Good job to him!

[pondman]

Verrazzano probably should of been in the Kings Bishop,

He deserved a shot at $600,000.

Nobody was forced to bet him or anyone else. They'll make more money on him-- just not against Orb.

[pondman]

The jockey (Lezcano) did the best he could.

??? If given the choice there would have been 100 jockeys willing to ride that horse on a moments notice. Wasn't too impressed by that ride. Horse was never in a favorable spot.

[pondman]

Any explanations yet just how bad Verrazano was yesterday?.

Travers-

Significance (38 years):

71% of winner run Belmont.
59% of winners run Dandy.

[cj]

Travers-

Significance (38 years):

71% of winner run Belmont.
59% of winners run Dandy.

That is supposed to explain him being awful?

[CincyHorseplayer]

Verrazano as has been pointed is the big beautiful fish and king of the small pond.He's flat out intimidated against better opposition.Sitting here,before I got on the computer thinking about him,what he needs is D.Wayne Lukas!We see the big flashes of potential in colts like this and they get softbatched into oblivion.Verrazano if campaigned more aggressively would turn into an absolute beast IMO.

[sammy the sage]

Verrazano as has been pointed is the big beautiful fish and king of the small pond.He's flat out intimidated against better opposition.Sitting here,before I got on the computer thinking about him,what he needs is D.Wayne Lukas!We see the big flashes of potential in colts like this and they get softbatched into oblivion.Verrazano if campaigned more aggressively would turn into an absolute beast IMO.

I've got a feeling he just hates mud in his face...would like to find out definitely...but 80% chance he'll probably just go to stud/retire :ThmbDown:

[Saratoga_Mike]

I've got a feeling he just hates mud in his face...would like to find out definitely...but 80% chance he'll probably just go to stud/retire :ThmbDown:

There was mud Travers day? Agree with you on the 80% comment.

[sammy the sage]

There was mud Travers day? Agree with you on the 80% comment.

Yeah..re-watch the 3 STAKES races following the 4 grass races...super SOAKED the track....and horses were crossing the line covered IN MUD...

Some here say that made track faster... :lol:

just compare the 7F stakes to maiden & allowance races EARLIER in the card...

and the final of the Traver's itself as well...

ps...did not have dime on Verranzo...this time

[cj]

Typical Todd Pletcher, now ducking the Woodward with Cross Traffic. He didn't learn these moves from Master Lukas, I'm sure of that one.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Typical Todd Pletcher, now ducking the Woodward with Cross Traffic. He didn't learn these moves from Master Lukas, I'm sure of that one.

I've come around on Lukas - he shows up.

[cj]

I've come around on Lukas - he shows up.

He probably overdid it when he was younger and ran some horses when he shouldn't have. But he also ran a lot of horses in impossible looking spots and won, and I'm talking in huge races like Breeders Cup and Triple Crown races.

It isn't any wonder Pletcher flops on racing biggest days. He babies his horses way too much. Anybody think Lukas would skip the Woodward to wait for a race a month later?

[Valuist]

Any explanations yet just how bad Verrazano was yesterday? I kind of expected it to be honest and bet against him with a horse that ran worse, but still, it almost defies belief the horse could look that bad.

I know he's won at 1 1/8 miles twice, but he really wants no part of that, let alone 10 furlongs. The Wood win was aided by a slow pace when Freedom Child broke 10-12 lengths behind the field, and Monmouth seems to carry horses further than normal distance limitations.

[cj]

I know he's won at 1 1/8 miles twice, but he really wants no part of that, let alone 10 furlongs. The Wood win was aided by a slow pace when Freedom Child broke 10-12 lengths behind the field, and Monmouth seems to carry horses further than normal distance limitations.

He was finished before they traveled a mile, let alone 9f or to the wire.

[Not4Love]

Agree completely; there are many facets to being a successful "anything" in this world.

[Cannon shell]

He probably overdid it when he was younger and ran some horses when he shouldn't have. But he also ran a lot of horses in impossible looking spots and won, and I'm talking in huge races like Breeders Cup and Triple Crown races.

It isn't any wonder Pletcher flops on racing biggest days. He babies his horses way too much. Anybody think Lukas would skip the Woodward to wait for a race a month later?
When Lukas rose to prominence a trainers win percentage was rarely considered. Horses were raced, not managed. Winning races trumped not losing races. Incredible as it may seem this wasn't 1950 but the 80's.

Everything at the top of the sport is carefully orchestrated now. When you hear how a horses "got his grade 1" as though that elevated them like a made man in the mafia it is basically the end of the road for that horse. Simply winning a single grade 1 race in order to "prove" stallion or high dollar broodmare credentials is the goal of many of the owners and breeders. Guys like Gene Klein liked to actually race horses. Winstar, Coolmore, and most of the fancy outfits just see racing as a way to service their breeding operations.

[CincyHorseplayer]

He probably overdid it when he was younger and ran some horses when he shouldn't have. But he also ran a lot of horses in impossible looking spots and won, and I'm talking in huge races like Breeders Cup and Triple Crown races.

It isn't any wonder Pletcher flops on racing biggest days. He babies his horses way too much. Anybody think Lukas would skip the Woodward to wait for a race a month later?

I can't stand the plethora of 4f works on nearly all his horses before a big stakes.I can't prove it but believe they are not condition properly and fail badly on some big days.Then again I'm impressed with the Donn and Whitney wins.I don't completely know what to think.

[nijinski]

He probably overdid it when he was younger and ran some horses when he shouldn't have. But he also ran a lot of horses in impossible looking spots and won, and I'm talking in huge races like Breeders Cup and Triple Crown races.

It isn't any wonder Pletcher flops on racing biggest days. He babies his horses way too much. Anybody think Lukas would skip the Woodward to wait for a race a month later?

I honestly don't know if Will Take Charge will show up for for every dance .
If he does and the fields turn up big , I might look elsewhere .
He has a chance of being bigger than Zenyatta , in size that is .

Lukas has said many times he went through quite a growth spurt in May and June . Unfortunately for him that was the timing of the TC races .

Lukas is a great trainer and a smart man he knows what has and the timing was perfect here and everything went his way . Doesn't always go that way for the
17h plus horses , They all seem to retire young .

[taxicab]

Please.
I can take or leave Pletcher.
But lets clear up a couple of things here.
He's not ducking anybody with Cross Traffic.
So what, Cross Traffic isn't going in the Woodward.
He's going in the Jockey Club Gold Cup.
Oh yeah, that's a million dollar Gr. 1 heat.
And didn't Pletcher run Cross Traffic in the Met Mile ?
That's the Gr. 1 Met Mile.
How about the Whitney ?
Gr. 1.....yeah.
Cross Traffic is also going in the Breeders Cup Classic.
Uh huh.
And who runs more horses in Triple Crown races ?
How about Derby Prep races ?
Hasn't Pletcher had more starters in Breedrs Cup races then any other trainer the last 5 years ?
I thought so.

And you want longshots......

This year alone:

Kentucky Oaks- Princess of Sylmar- $79.60 to win.
Belmont- Palace Malice- $29.60 to win.
Kings Bishop- Capo Bastone- $54.50 to win.

Like I said, I can take or leave trainer Todd.
But he shows up.
With favorites and longshots.

[cj]

Please.
I can take or leave Pletcher.
But lets clear up a couple of things here.
He's not ducking anybody with Cross Traffic.
So what, Cross Traffic isn't going in the Woodward.
He's going in the Jockey Club Gold Cup.
Oh yeah, that's a million dollar Gr. 1 heat.
And didn't Pletcher run Cross Traffic in the Met Mile ?
That's the Gr. 1 Met Mile.
How about the Whitney ?
Gr. 1.....yeah.
Cross Traffic is also going in the Breeders Cup Classic.
Uh huh.
And who runs more horses in Triple Crown races ?
How about Derby Prep races ?
Hasn't Pletcher had more starters in Breedrs Cup races then any other trainer the last 5 years ?
I thought so.

And you want longshots......

This year alone:

Kentucky Oaks- Princess of Sylmar- $79.60 to win.
Belmont- Palace Malice- $29.60 to win.
Kings Bishop- Capo Bastone- $54.50 to win.

Like I said, I can take or leave trainer Todd.
But he shows up.
With favorites and longshots.

I think you are getting carried away. He shows up because he has a zillion horses, not because he runs them often. Anyone can see why he didn't want to run in the Woodward. It was loaded with speed and at 10f. Trainers don't generally skip G1 races worth a ton of money for a race a month later.

And, by the way, Todd's record in the TC and the BC is pretty bad. I think it is because his horses don't get enough foundation for those tough tests. But hey, his owners are happy. He doesn't have to appease me.

[taxicab]

How am I getting carried away if everything I stated was a fact ?
And back to Cross Traffic.
This horse did not race until this year.
In this year if all goes well, CT will have competed in :
Westchester
Met. Mile.
Whitney.
Jockey Club Gold Cup.
Breeders Cup Classic.
All of this from a horse that didn't hit the track until January of this year.
And I do have one question......
If Todd Pletcher doesn't run his horses often, how did he win all of these stakes races ?


http://www.toddpletcherracing.com/stakes_winners.asp

[cj]

How am I getting carried away if everything I stated was a fact ?
And back to Cross Traffic.
This horse did not race until this year.
In this year if all goes well, CT will have competed in :
Westchester
Met. Mile.
Whitney.
Jockey Club Gold Cup.
Breeders Cup Classic.
All of this from a horse that didn't hit the track until January of this year.
And I do have one question......
If Todd Pletcher doesn't run his horses often, how did he win all of these stakes races ?


http://www.toddpletcherracing.com/stakes_winners.asp

Same answer, he has lots of horses. What you posted shows exactly what I'm talking about. Cross Traffic has run 5 times. That isn't "running often" in anyone's book. We'll see if he makes it to seven.

You disagree about him being bad in the Breeder's Cup and Triple Crown?

[taxicab]

Same answer, he has lots of horses. What you posted shows exactly what I'm talking about. Cross Traffic has run 5 times. That isn't "running often" in anyone's book. We'll see if he makes it to seven.

You disagree about him being bad in the Breeder's Cup and Triple Crown?

Show me where in this thread I said or implied that Todd Pletcher has a high batting average in Breeders Cup/Triple Crown races.
Let me double check here.......
That would be nowhere.
It seems to me Mr. CJ, you are ignoring my factual posts in this thread.

I said that Pletcher runs more horses in Triple Crown preps/races than anyone.....right ?
Same with the Breeders Cup.....right ?


I'll try again.
A)- If you think taking a horse that never raced until his 4yo season, then running said horse in the Westchester, Met Mile, Whitney.....
And hopefully the Jockey Club Gold Cup and the Breeders Cup Classic all in the same year has any shade of "ducking" to it, then you just don't get it.
Unraced maiden into four Grade 1 races in the same year.
Can I make it any clearer ?

You're the one that said Pletcher doesn't run his horses often.....right ?
I put up a link showing that Todd P. has won so many stakes races, that nobody has the time to count them out.
And many of his stakes wins came with the same horse.
For example English Channel.
He won 11 stakes with him.
That includes 7 Gr. 1's for English Channel.
Yeah, that's really not running his horse much.

And how many times has Pletcher run Princess of Sylmar this year ?
That would be 6 times.
Not to shabby.
The same Princess Sylmar who is the first to win the filly triple crown since Open Mind in 1989.
Name another quality 3yo filly who has raced that many times this year.

And FYI....Pletcher has well over 3000 career wins......with a high win percentage.

To answer your question, Pletcher has a much lower win percentage in the Triple Crown races than he does with his day in and day out racers.
Remind me here if you will, how many triple crown races per year do they run ?

[cj]

Show me where in this thread I said or implied that Todd Pletcher has a high batting average in Breeders Cup/Triple Crown races.
Let me double check here.......
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah

Like I said, most of his clients are happy with him not racing much, and that is what matters to him. It isn't very good for the sport though. One guy having most of the best horses and running them five or six times a year just isn't good for competition and filling fields. Good thing Cross Traffic was in the barn, that Alpha is sure a monster.

MY OPINION is he underachieves, big time. We'll have to agree to disagree.

[taxicab]

Like I said, most of his clients are happy with him not racing much, and that is what matters to him. It isn't very good for the sport though. One guy having most of the best horses and running them five or six times a year just isn't good for competition and filling fields. Good thing Cross Traffic was in the barn, that Alpha is sure a monster.

MY OPINION is he underachieves, big time. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Fair enough.
Good discussion.
Thanks for keeping it civil.
You present your opinion well.
Peace.:)

[chadk66]

I've come around on Lukas - he shows up.one thing about Lukas he has never dodged anybody without a legit reason since he started training thoroughbreds.

[chadk66]

When Lukas rose to prominence a trainers win percentage was rarely considered. Horses were raced, not managed. Winning races trumped not losing races. Incredible as it may seem this wasn't 1950 but the 80's.

Everything at the top of the sport is carefully orchestrated now. When you hear how a horses "got his grade 1" as though that elevated them like a made man in the mafia it is basically the end of the road for that horse. Simply winning a single grade 1 race in order to "prove" stallion or high dollar broodmare credentials is the goal of many of the owners and breeders. Guys like Gene Klein liked to actually race horses. Winstar, Coolmore, and most of the fancy outfits just see racing as a way to service their breeding operations.you are 100% right on the money. in the 80's we raced those son of a guns. If they weren't sound they went home to heal. Now it's high drama. they use the race track as a rehab center because they can, the barns are rarely full anymore. in the 80's if you weren't running horses you were put on notice you were loosing some stalls. much different times we live in now.

[chadk66]

that's one of the reasons the racing industry is hurting right now. foal numbers are way down and trainers run their horses less and less. not a good combination.