Its a conspiracy!

[Larry Hamilton]

I saw lately a suggestion that our resident libs may be from the DNC. Let's parse that thought.

Their methods of debate are evident in almost every post. The accuse, they bend, they take out of context but most of the time, they do it without thought, proof, evidence, or even logic. THis is no surpise. We have almost all noted that at one time or another.

If you are a Democrat, you are aligned with these guys whether you want to be or not. They represent the thought and methods of YOUR party. They are, in effect, you. I think most of the dems on this site are embarrased by the connection that must be made, just as most Republicans are embarrased by connections to Perot and McClain.

My conclusion: It makes no sense for the DNC to use such spokesmen as they make the party look thoughtless, proof-less with the debating skills of Pee Wee Herman. So who sent us these gems to torment this tower of logical thought? I think the RNC dirty tricks department sponsored them.

[ljb]

Larry Hamilton said:
"Their methods of debate are evident in almost every post. The accuse, they bend, they take out of context but most of the time, they do it without thought, proof, evidence, or even logic. THis is no surpise. We have almost all noted that at one time or another."
If you think this type activity is just coming from the left, I have some wmds in Iraq I'd like to sell you.

[ranchwest]

I really don't need justification from others. The significance of politics is in the substance, not the rhetoric.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by ranchwest
I really don't need justification from others. The significance of politics is in the substance, not the rhetoric.

How's this for substance........ I paid less taxes this year on a percentage basis than any year in the last ten. Even though my income was up. That is money in my pocket that I can spend, not a promise, actual cash in my pocket. That is substance

[JustRalph]

try this for substance.........you think this would have happen without our invasion of Iraq?

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/africa/03/05/weapons.libya.ap/index.html

Just a short snippet


THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) -- Libya acknowledged stockpiling 44,000 pounds of mustard gas and disclosed the location of a production plant in a declaration submitted Friday to the world's chemical weapons watchdog.

Libyan Col. Mohamed Abu Al Huda handed over 14 file cartons disclosing Libya's chemical weapons programs to the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, said general director Rogelio Pfirter.

Info on Mustard:
Mustard Gas (Yperite) was first used by the German Army in September 1917. The most lethal of all the poisonous chemicals used during the war, it was almost odourless and took twelve hours to take effect. Yperite was so powerful that only small amounts had to be added to high explosive shells to be effective. Once in the soil, mustard gas remained active for several weeks.

The skin of victims of mustard gas blistered, the eyes became very sore and they began to vomit. Mustard gas caused internal and external bleeding and attacked the bronchial tubes, stripping off the mucous membrane. This was extremely painful and most soldiers had to be strapped to their beds. It usually took a person four or five weeks to die of mustard gas poisoning. One nurse, Vera Brittain, wrote: "I wish those people who talk about going on with this war whatever it costs could see the soldiers suffering from mustard gas poisoning. Great mustard-coloured blisters, blind eyes, all sticky and stuck together, always fighting for breath, with voices a mere whisper, saying that their throats are closing and they know they will choke."


British Gas Casualties: 1914-18 Deaths Non-Fatal
Chlorine 1,976 164,457
Mustard Gas 4,086 16,526

[Secretariat]

Sounds like maybe we should have invaded Libya rather than Iraq. Sure found a lot more.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Secretariat
Sounds like maybe we should have invaded Libya rather than Iraq. Sure found a lot more.


but without one........you don't get the other, that's the point

and there is still time to decide who is next...........

[Secretariat]

Who is next JR? North Korea, or Pakistan which sold those nuclear secrets to Libya and Iran. Or maybe China who gave those nuclear secrets to Pakistan. Maybe Iran since their election ddin't quite go the way we wanted. Some don't like Chavez in Venzuela, and there is a lot of oil down there, maybe that's next.

Just curious which one you think since you understand this administration more than I ever will.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Secretariat
Just curious which one you think since you understand this administration more than I ever will.

Peace through strength........

I wouldn't guess.......who is next. depends on who is the bigger threat. The B-2's can reach them all in about 24 hours.

When that Big Batwinged mother does a fly over...the problem is over. The Arab Countries now understand that Toyota Pickups can't take on Bradley's.........The Three days of rolling over Iraq have done years worth of good. Peace Through Strength.......it says it all.

[ljb]

Jr said:
"How's this for substance........ I paid less taxes this year on a percentage basis than any year in the last ten. Even though my income was up. That is money in my pocket that I can spend, not a promise, actual cash in my pocket. That is substance"

So your in it for the money hey!
Do you pay property taxes? Do you pay any state and local income taxes ? Do you pay any sales taxes ? Do you pay any type of user taxes ie license fees city garbage disposal etc.? If you answered yes to any of these questions you may want to recalculate your numbers.

If your answer is still the same, just thank your children for paying off the bills currently being run up by the gubmnt.

[JustRalph]

I thank Pres. Bush for lowering my Tax burden. End of story

[Secretariat]

lbj,

you forgot to add the additional interest on JR's credit card...the national debt.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by JustRalph
Peace through strength........

I wouldn't guess.......who is next. depends on who is the bigger threat. The B-2's can reach them all in about 24 hours.

When that Big Batwinged mother does a fly over...the problem is over. The Arab Countries now understand that Toyota Pickups can't take on Bradley's.........The Three days of rolling over Iraq have done years worth of good. Peace Through Strength.......it says it all.


There is a lot of truth to this statement.

I was watching a Frontline piece on the most recent Iraq war (anyone else see it?). They were even interviewing an Iraqi military leader and some other Iraqi soldiers and fighters who fought against the US led coalition. These guys were absolutely blown away (literally as well as figuratively) by American firepower and strength.

We were so outnumbered over there, but we rolled through that country like a hot knife through butter. It was so freakin easy, it was almost laughable if it weren't a war.

Yes, they were a weakened country from the first war, and yes they had sanctions against them. BUT, they actually thought they could defend Baghdad for a few weeks or more.

It was a total slaughter....the Iraq military never stood a chance, and this I hope will strike a little fear into the hearts of any other potential enemy of the United States.

Peace through Strength indeed!

[kenwoodallpromos]

I think our "progressive" friends on this forum are more Dennis Cassinnnnicchh's crowd! /WMDs for sale- Good one LJB! / Iraq etc.- I would not like to play poker with baby Bush- he called Iraq's bluff and wiped them out them succeeded in his bluffs against the others!! / Now let's be good American voters and all thank Bush for saving our rears then vote him the heck out so another Hollywood loving stud can take over!LOL!

[JustRalph]

Interesting article from U.S. News


I think this kind of goes along with the Peace through strength policy mentioned in this thread.

U.S. News Article (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/040308/opinion/8barone.htm)

[Secretariat]

So your assertion JR is that the invasion of Iraq caused Libya to reveal it's cache of WMD's.

Found this the other day:

"Within months after September 11th, we had the Libyans, the Syrians and the Iranians all coming to us saying, 'What can we do [to better relations]?' We didn't really engage any of them, because we decided to do Iraq. We really squandered two years of capital that will make it harder to apply this model to the hard cases like Iran and Syria," said Flynt Leverett, a former Bush administration National Security Council staff member now at the Brookings Institution.

The fact that Libya was apparently serious about negotiating with us certainly makes you wonder if Iran and Syria were equally serious. And it's also hard not to wonder what would have happened with Iraq if we'd been willing to spend a year negotiating with them instead of five rather obviously unserious months."

Again, this is not me but a former member of the Bush NSC. And to answer your question about what would have happened under Kerry? We don't know, just like we didn't know what would happen under Bush when he ran against Gore in 2000. Bush at that time advocated not becoming the world's policeman, and in the early part of his adminstration tried to stick to that and ignored the Israel-Palestine situation pretty much as well as N. Korea following his stated foreign policy approach which he ran on. 911 changed that for him in which he embraced international action.

My problem with the Peace through Strength concept is it has taken a new turn. From "deterrrence" during the Cold War to "pre-emption" under Bush. "Deterrence" was financially costly during the Cold War, but it worked without animosity from our allies and loss of life and fostered negotiation and respect. "Pre-emption" implies you are totally correct in your intelligence, which in the case of Iraq has proven to be disastrous, from the Niger State of the Union speech, to the mystical WMD's still not found to this date, to the poor post war planning of Iraq even by General Myers own admissiton, and to the damage in Iraq fostering hatred of our country globally putting us on jury for invading a country on overblown WMD assertions. Perhaps Iraq did influence Libya, we really don't know that for sure, the former Bush NSC member disagreed.

But Peace through Strength has been America's policy since the beginning of the Cold War so I see nothing new here, except for the policy of "pre-emption" which has been shown to be seriously flawed in its implementation in Iraq. Don't get me wrong? I agree in defending our nation when it is at risk and fully support the invasion of Afghanistan. I just wish we had fully committed to catching Bin Laden, and rooting out the Taliban in Pakistan rather than putting all our resources into (I dont know a humantiarian war or war for oil whatever it was, rather than in a war in response to 911 and those responsible for that which was launched on our national soil).

[Tom]

[code
Pakistan 8-5
Iran 5-2
Syria 5-1
Jordan 6-1
N Korea 12-1
China 25-1
[\code]


Peace through strength and peace on them! :eek:

[JustRalph]

after 9-11 pre-emptive policy is the only way to go. There is no true defined enemy...they lurk in shadows and are supported by countries who do nothing but deny it and stonewall. Pres. Bush said you are either with us, or against us........everything changed on 9-11.

Pres. Bush said he would not engage in Nation Building in his 2000 campaign......... that went out the window after 9-11. We needed to let the world know that we have the will to take over your country and enforce regime change...if you threaten us. Iraq was the best target at the time. The war was never all about WMD's. It was about setting an example. From palaces to Spider holes........we will hunt you down. The same man is not running in 2004 that ran in 2000. If you think so, you are wrong. I am not the same after 9-11 and neither are you. If you are, you fail to realize the impact of 9-11. It should have changed American Attitudes.....it did in most places. But I see us starting to forget already.

In 1983 I sat in a Top Secret briefing at an Air Force Base in Southern California. I was the lowest ranking person in the room. It was a little intimidating. The topic of discussion was 3 terrorists from Lybia who had been positively identified as having entered the U.S. and were living in Hotels in the LA area. The FBI and CIA had been following them. They were taking pictures of construction areas for the Olympics. I listened to an FBI agent tell us about the plan to nab them and how they had no protocol for how to do it. The FBI types were telling us that they wanted to follow them as long as possible to gain intel. But they cautioned us on not knowing where these guys might want to strike. They even told us they might want to steal an Airplane. I was an Air Force Flight Line Security Supervisor. The Airplane thing was a little surprising to us. I will never forget these words " Eventually someone will get into the U.S. undetected and pull off a terrorist act that will kill hundreds of American citizens, when they do, everything will change" it took almost twenty years......things have changed. The FBI types were right.

Never forget........and don't be short sighted. Pres. Bush could not come out and say....."we are going to set an example by taking over Iraq" Iraq had already given us plenty of reasons to come back. It was a target of great opportunity. It allowed us to interject a little Democracy in an area that will be so threatened by it, it will resonate for years to come. It was an opportunity to remind those other countries that might threaten us, what our military can do. It was also an opportunity to take down Saddam and set the people of Iraq free and on a path towards freedom in the region. It was a Win-Win on just about every end. It signifies a change in our policy. It is pre-emptive and has to be. I hope like hell whomever ends up being President continues to understand this. We can argue about WMD's all day long. That wasn't the real reason. It was a side issue all along. Even Saddam's Generals were fooled into thinking there were WMD's. Too bad....sometimes you get what you ask for.

I watched Geraldo Rivera on TV last night. He has just returned from Iraq. He says that Iraq is thriving with commerce and the people are happier than they have been in 30 years. He says 95% of the country is like that. The other 5% is dangerous as hell according to Geraldo. But hell........I wonder what percentages you would put on this country of ours? So when you say the post war plan is screwed, you might be underestimating the breadth of what has been accomplished. The attacks on American troops are down 80% from what they were in May. The Iraqi Police are now chasing down insurgents. They will not stand for the attacks against Iraqi citizens. They will begin to meat out justice in their own way. Everyday is an accomplishment. Everyday a little trickle of freedom spreads. It scares the hell out of the Monarchs and Kings in the area. The Dictators are all building their own luxury Spider holes. Just in case........peace through strength....... I know you guys don't read half of this shit I write anyway....so I will stop........

[Tom]

Which half is the good stuff in?????:D

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by JustRalph
after 9-11 pre-emptive policy is the only way to go. There is no true defined enemy...they lurk in shadows and are supported by countries who do nothing but deny it and stonewall. Pres. Bush said you are either with us, or against us........everything changed on 9-11.

Pres. Bush said he would not engage in Nation Building in his 2000 campaign......... that went out the window after 9-11. We needed to let the world know that we have the will to take over your country and enforce regime change...if you threaten us. Iraq was the best target at the time. The war was never all about WMD's. It was about setting an example. From palaces to Spider holes........we will hunt you down. The same man is not running in 2004 that ran in 2000. If you think so, you are wrong. I am not the same after 9-11 and neither are you. If you are, you fail to realize the impact of 9-11. It should have changed American Attitudes.....it did in most places. But I see us starting to forget already.


Never forget........and don't be short sighted. Pres. Bush could not come out and say....."we are going to set an example by taking over Iraq" Iraq had already given us plenty of reasons to come back. It was a target of great opportunity. It allowed us to interject a little Democracy in an area that will be so threatened by it, it will resonate for years to come. It was an opportunity to remind those other countries that might threaten us, what our military can do. It was also an opportunity to take down Saddam and set the people of Iraq free and on a path towards freedom in the region. It was a Win-Win on just about every end. It signifies a change in our policy. It is pre-emptive and has to be. I hope like hell whomever ends up being President continues to understand this. We can argue about WMD's all day long. That wasn't the real reason. It was a side issue all along. Even Saddam's Generals were fooled into thinking there were WMD's. Too bad....sometimes you get what you ask for.

I watched Geraldo Rivera on TV last night. He has just returned from Iraq. He says that Iraq is thriving with commerce and the people are happier than they have been in 30 years. He says 95% of the country is like that. The other 5% is dangerous as hell according to Geraldo. But hell........I wonder what percentages you would put on this country of ours? So when you say the post war plan is screwed, you might be underestimating the breadth of what has been accomplished. The attacks on American troops are down 80% from what they were in May. The Iraqi Police are now chasing down insurgents. They will not stand for the attacks against Iraqi citizens. They will begin to meat out justice in their own way. Everyday is an accomplishment. Everyday a little trickle of freedom spreads. It scares the hell out of the Monarchs and Kings in the area. The Dictators are all building their own luxury Spider holes. Just in case........peace through strength....... I know you guys don't read half of this shit I write anyway....so I will stop........

Oh JR, I am very different after 911. I personally know people who were in those towers that day, and survived to talk about it. It is a difficult thing to watch them recount that day. But strangely the 911 people I know are not proponents of “pre-emption”, but proponents at getting at the truth of what really happened that day. They don’t understand this non-existent link between Hussein and Bin Laden, the man attributed for the 911 action. They don’t understand the cuts in the Bush budget to first responders, the men who helped save them on that day.
Believe me, they will never forget, and neither will I.

I do agree with one thing you said, ”Pres. Bush could not come out and say....."we are going to set an example by taking over Iraq." In other words you’re saying he “could not” level with the American people for his real reasons for invading Iraq. My response is simple, “Why not?” If his motive was so noble as you list below, and this is a free country, don’t the people have the right to know? This is supposed to be the people’s government. You don’t win points from hiding things from them, or not trusting them.

I disagree with “pre-emption” UNLESS two things exist. (1) Our national security is threatened, and (2) our proof is verificable and irrefutable. Neither of these two conditions were met.
Quoting Geraldo is the height of desperation. This was the only american reporter kicked out of Iraq by the US for revealing troop movements. He has had no crediblity since the famous Capone vault charade. The polls I’ve read show a continued decline in support of America from Arab nations.

As to Bush changing his philosophy since 911, would that also be applicable to Kerry's positions prior to 911 as well?

[PaceAdvantage]

Good quote from that article JR posted:


But Kerry's council speech does show an inclination to tie down the United States. And the perceptions of hostile foreign leaders of an American president's determination do make a difference. Muammar Qadhafi decided to give up his nuclear weapons program lest Bush pursue him to a spider hole in the desert. Would he have made the same decision if John Kerry were about to take the oath of office? Bush's determination to act against threats is not in doubt. Kerry's is.

The Iraq card had to be played. It was a beautiful move. It will pay dividends for years to come.

All these foreign enemies of the United States had the false belief that America was soft, and that the American people wouldn't stand for a war with even one American casualty. High ranking Iraqi military leaders had been quoted stating this very thing before and after the war (when they realized how mistaken they had been).

And one other thing, please remind me what the purpose of the United Nations is again? What have they been doing since the Iraq war started?

[kenwoodallpromos]

I thought the UN just decontaminated water!

[Secretariat]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage

And one other thing, please remind me what the purpose of the United Nations is again? What have they been doing since the Iraq war started?

Well, let's see. Bush shut them out of anything in Iraq because he refused to allow a security council vote. He then fought a war, and after he couldn't get the sides to agree ask the UN to come in and work with Sistani, and asked the UN to come in and set up shop. I think that's about it.

Looking at this whole section of posts I see the basis for this whole argument hinges around perceived threat and pre-emption. Perceived threat was unsupported by Dr. Kay, which leaves two stories which really were fostered during the invasion - (a) Hussein was a bad man (b) we want to foment democracy in Iraq. Two reasons Wolfowitz said before the war were not sufficient to go into Iraq, and which Bush rarely asserted primarily asserting Axis od Evil and WMD threat to the US.

Now they had to be made an example argument. The weakest of all.

[Tom]

Originally posted by ljb
Jr said:
[If your answer is still the same, just thank your children for paying off the bills currently being run up by the gubmnt.

Like Congress is not repsonsible for the spending?
L, try this for Sunday entertainment....look at the last 100 bills passed by congress and list how much pork was attached to them. Kerry can beat his chest and vaquely scream he will revoke tax cuts to the rich, but waht is his position on controlling pork, which his party is equally guilty of perpetuating?
Frankly, I get real tired of listening to Congress back peddle on every issue when the bottom line is THEY are responsibly parties.
THEY vote to allow an Iraqi invasion then complaint they were lied to and no longer support it. Where is their responsibility to investigate the intelligence for themselves? If they are that lazy/stupid that they were duped by bad intellegence then that is on them.
Then they scream we are going broke spending all this money on Iraq, yet THEY voted to spend it.
Come on, man.....Bush is one arm of the governement-the legislature is on its own. It is high time for THEM to stand up and take responsibility and to hold themselves to the same standards they hold Bush.

[Tom]

Originally posted by Secretariat
Well, let's see. Bush shut them out of anything in Iraq because he refused to allow a security council vote. He then fought a war, and after he couldn't get the sides to agree ask the UN to come in and work with Sistani, and asked the UN to come in and set up shop. I think that's about it.



So, it is the UN-the whole world - vs Bush.
And if Bush was such an evil man for doing what he did, then did not the UN fail by not sending troops HERE to stoip US?!?!?
Get real. The UN is a weak, ineffective body of losers who look to US to do its dirty work for them. I have no repsect for weak loser countries. Let them fall in behind us, do what we tell them to do when we tell them to do it, or don't-just don't come crawling to us when you find out your don' t have the stones to make it on your own. Most national leaders in this world are not as important as the mayors of most US major cities. Time for natural selection to kick in here - you want to play world leader in this world, be prepared to meet real ones.
Hint: don' t p*ss 'em off when you do.
NEXT!