Nellie Cashman DQ at Saratoga.

[Stillriledup]

I would have left her up. I didnt see, from the pan shot, that the 2nd place finisher's jock ever stopped riding, the horse didnt appear to "break stride". What i think was a much worse call was placing the winner 3rd, the incident didnt cost the 3rd place finisher a placing, that horse was finishing 3rd no matter what, i'm not sure why the need for a change.

if you want to flip the winner and the 2nd horse....i wouldnt have done it, but i can't say it was the worst call in history, but to put the winner 3rd behind the 3 horse, i have a problem with that, another bad call, but, you know, what else is new with these people, they've had a bad meet so far, what's another bad DQ of an out of town jock amongst friends.

[menifee]

I would have left her up. I didnt see, from the pan shot, that the 2nd place finisher's jock ever stopped riding, the horse didnt appear to "break stride". What i think was a much worse call was placing the winner 3rd, the incident didnt cost the 3rd place finisher a placing, that horse was finishing 3rd no matter what, i'm not sure why the need for a change.

if you want to flip the winner and the 2nd horse....i wouldnt have done it, but i can't say it was the worst call in history, but to put the winner 3rd behind the 3 horse, i have a problem with that, another bad call, but, you know, what else is new with these people, they've had a bad meet so far, what's another bad DQ of an out of town jock amongst friends.

I agree. I thought this was a bad dq. Came so close to the finish line that it would not have made a difference and certainly did not cost a 3 the placing. I had the 3 and certainly didn't feel that the horse should have been put up to second.

[wiffleball whizz]

I would have left her up. I didnt see, from the pan shot, that the 2nd place finisher's jock ever stopped riding, the horse didnt appear to "break stride". What i think was a much worse call was placing the winner 3rd, the incident didnt cost the 3rd place finisher a placing, that horse was finishing 3rd no matter what, i'm not sure why the need for a change.

if you want to flip the winner and the 2nd horse....i wouldnt have done it, but i can't say it was the worst call in history, but to put the winner 3rd behind the 3 horse, i have a problem with that, another bad call, but, you know, what else is new with these people, they've had a bad meet so far, what's another bad DQ of an out of town jock amongst friends.


If the people betting went to the university of stillriledup and bet the horse that gotten taken down.....THEY WOULD HAVE GOTTEN PAID!!!!!

[SandyW]

It just continues.

[Valuist]

Reminded me of Saturday's 8th at Saratoga, where there was a crawlfest pace and two 23-1 shots overcame it to run 1-2. Speed has not been very good on the Sar lawn the past couple days.

[Stretch Out]

Way too many DQ's these days. Epidemic proportions. Makes you sick when you think you made a nice score, then you get the inquiry/ objection, then you are tortured for 5 minutes, and then its life over. Happening all over- Arlington, Saratoga, Del Mar- the past week has been crazy. Lake Placid today was a joke but Orino DQ was even worse. Seemed like everyone was in celebration mode for 2 minutes after the Arlington Million- but wait... there is an objection.


I wanna bet at SRU Downs- sign me up. Winners get paid.

[Valuist]

Way too many DQ's these days. Epidemic proportions. Makes you sick when you think you made a nice score, then you get the inquiry/ objection, then you are tortured for 5 minutes, and then its life over. Happening all over- Arlington, Saratoga, Del Mar- the past week has been crazy. Lake Placid today was a joke but Orino DQ was even worse. Seemed like everyone was in celebration mode for 2 minutes after the Arlington Million- but wait... there is an objection.


I wanna bet at SRU Downs- sign me up. Winners get paid.

I don't see how there could be any objections about the Arlington call. The stewards had no choice, and in this instance they made the right call.

[iceknight]

Way too many DQ's these days. Epidemic proportions. Makes you sick when you think you made a nice score, then you get the inquiry/ objection, then you are tortured for 5 minutes, and then its life over. Happening all over- Arlington, Saratoga, Del Mar- the past week has been crazy. Lake Placid today was a joke but Orino DQ was even worse. Seemed like everyone was in celebration mode for 2 minutes after the Arlington Million- but wait... there is an objection.


I wanna bet at SRU Downs- sign me up. Winners get paid. last couple of times there were DQ's.. I actually got paid - one was a 19-1 shot at EVD and the other was minor so I didnt remember.. And in those cases, the horses that got DQ'ed definitely impeded another horse very clearly.. although this Nellie Cash case.. can't say it was that clear..

[menifee]

I don't see how there could be any objections about the Arlington call. The stewards had no choice, and in this instance they made the right call.

You could probably disqualify every horse in the Arlington million - there is so much bumping in that race as horse jostle for position. The only reason that latest bump becomes relevant is because it occurs near the finish line. I would like to bet at SRU downs as well. Disqualify from purses, suspend jockeys. Leave bettors out of it for wagering purposes and keep the order across the line the same regardless.

[Stretch Out]

I am definitely a little sour after getting DQ'd cashing leg of early Pick 4 at Monmouth yesterday, and the Del Mar turf sprint last Wednesday. Nice to get put up on occasion - sure is. 17/1 even better!!

But the only time I stopbetting horses is when I go on 2 week losing streak, or if I get DQ'd for serious dough. DQ's. It is a tough game to beat, with a million ways to lose.

Can't wait for a Triple Crown DQ.

[menifee]

By the way, why no review of the 5th race today by Saratoga stewards? Definitely some bumping between the 2nd and 3rd place horses. The inconsistency drives me nuts.

[PaceAdvantage]

I would have left her up. I didnt see, from the pan shot, that the 2nd place finisher's jock ever stopped riding, the horse didnt appear to "break stride". What i think was a much worse call was placing the winner 3rd, the incident didnt cost the 3rd place finisher a placing, that horse was finishing 3rd no matter what, i'm not sure why the need for a change.

if you want to flip the winner and the 2nd horse....i wouldnt have done it, but i can't say it was the worst call in history, but to put the winner 3rd behind the 3 horse, i have a problem with that, another bad call, but, you know, what else is new with these people, they've had a bad meet so far, what's another bad DQ of an out of town jock amongst friends.Man, you just love to complain about everything...

I knew WITHOUT A DOUBT that horse would be disqualified. And wasn't it the third place finisher that claimed foul on the winner? Plus a steward's inquiry?

The steward's put the sign up immediately.

And because I had multiple witnesses at the Toga Part in the festival tent, this doesn't count as a redboard....I had the exacta (paying $400 if I recall) as it originally stood. I also had the exacta after the DQ (only paid $100). I also had a win bet on Nellie (and a win bet on the winner who was put up...)

So if anyone has a right to be pissed, it's me. But I knew as soon as I saw the head on that Nellie was coming down. Too much interference and too close a finish for it to not have affected the outcome.

I don't get how the hell you find a way to post about virtually ever single DQ that comes down the pike... :lol:

[menifee]

Man, you just love to complain about everything...

I knew WITHOUT A DOUBT that horse would be disqualified. And wasn't it the third place finisher that claimed foul on the winner? Plus a steward's inquiry?

The steward's put the sign up immediately.

And because I had multiple witnesses at the Toga Part in the festival tent, this doesn't count as a redboard....I had the exacta (paying $400 if I recall) as it originally stood. I also had the exacta after the DQ (only paid $100). I also had a win bet on Nellie (and a win bet on the winner who was put up...)

So if anyone has a right to be pissed, it's me. But I knew as soon as I saw the head on that Nellie was coming down. Too much interference and too close a finish for it to not have affected the outcome.

I don't get how the hell you find a way to post about virtually ever single DQ that comes down the pike... :lol:

I'm lobbying an inquiry and an objection - definite redboard. Classic redboard

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm lobbying an inquiry and an objection - definite redboard. Classic redboardIt's not a redboard when there were multiple live in-the-flesh witnesses...including people who knew what I was betting before the race...being a dick is not always your forte you know...

[Stillriledup]

Reminded me of Saturday's 8th at Saratoga, where there was a crawlfest pace and two 23-1 shots overcame it to run 1-2. Speed has not been very good on the Sar lawn the past couple days.

Unless you toss out Sunrise Sue (or whatever her name is) and she goes wire to wire and nobody can gain an inch, than speed is good all of a sudden! :D

You're right though, some of those races speed dies a horrible death, i bet that grey horse who got loose in the 51 half in that race and i lost to that robbie davis crud, that race was a typical "graveyard of favorites" race that absolutely no rhyme or reason to be able to have that exacta. Those were 2 dead closers in a race with no pace, a decent horse got loose and crawled home like he was shot.

[Stillriledup]

Man, you just love to complain about everything...

I knew WITHOUT A DOUBT that horse would be disqualified. And wasn't it the third place finisher that claimed foul on the winner? Plus a steward's inquiry?

The steward's put the sign up immediately.

And because I had multiple witnesses at the Toga Part in the festival tent, this doesn't count as a redboard....I had the exacta (paying $400 if I recall) as it originally stood. I also had the exacta after the DQ (only paid $100). I also had a win bet on Nellie (and a win bet on the winner who was put up...)

So if anyone has a right to be pissed, it's me. But I knew as soon as I saw the head on that Nellie was coming down. Too much interference and too close a finish for it to not have affected the outcome.

I don't get how the hell you find a way to post about virtually ever single DQ that comes down the pike... :lol:

I only complain about the ones that are BS, and this was one of them. Don't worry, Andy will still be your friend if you are critical of them in any way, i promise, he will still love you.

[PaceAdvantage]

I only complain about the ones that are BS, and this was one of them. Don't worry, Andy will still be your friend if you are critical of them in any way, i promise, he will still love you.Did you even read my post? I had the exacta had it stayed up. And I'm not pissed because I knew, after being a handicapper since 1987, that this horse was coming down.

You too get the "dick" award of the day after the Andy comment. Has nothing to do with Andy.

I was materially affected by the DQ. And I still agree with it.

I did laugh out loud when I saw this thread...then I laughed out loud again when I saw it was you who created it...'nuff said...

[Stillriledup]

Did you even read my post? I had the exacta had it stayed up. And I'm not pissed because I knew, after being a handicapper since 1987, that this horse was coming down.

You too get the "dick" award of the day after the Andy comment. Has nothing to do with Andy.

I was materially affected by the DQ. And I still agree with it.

I did laugh out loud when I saw this thread...then I laughed out loud again when I saw it was you who created it...'nuff said...

I had the horse who was put up, i made a nice score on the race, yet, the call was still BS. There have been bad calls at the meet, you are the only one here who thinks these calls are legit...see a pattern?

[PaceAdvantage]

I had the horse who was put up, i made a nice score on the race, yet, the call was still BS. There have been bad calls at the meet, you are the only one here who thinks these calls are legit...see a pattern?Yeah, I comment about calls all the time...not...

See a pattern?

The call was legit. The horse drifted out and took 3 others with her...did you even watch the head on? Then she wins by a nose...

So you have a horse who barely hangs on after causing interference on more than one horse.

Read the comment on the third place finisher: "gained fast on the winner, was carried out late then crowded between horses and just missed."

From someone who professes to watch replays to gain an edge, it's surprising that you could be so blind.

[Stillriledup]

Yeah, I comment about calls all the time...not...

See a pattern?

The call was legit. The horse drifted out and took 3 others with her...did you even watch the head on? Then she wins by a nose...

So you have a horse who barely hangs on after causing interference on more than one horse.

Read the comment on the third place finisher: "gained fast on the winner, was carried out late then crowded between horses and just missed."

From someone who professes to watch replays to gain an edge, it's surprising that you could be so blind.

First of all, there is no head on shot, its not a direct head on, so i don't put too much stock in that. Its ok though that they feel its ok to make calls involving hundreds of thousands of dollars on some kooky "pan" shot that they call a head on.

Also, you're quoting equibase? Their comments are house comments, they make those comments after they know there's a DQ or not a DQ, if there's a DQ they'll reflect that in their comments, the guy writing the comments has no choice but to 'agree' with what the judges do...so, i don't put too much stock in that either.

The 2nd place finisher never broke stride, the jock didnt grab up and the horse got beat, the winner, cost herself ground by shifting, the winner wins by more if she stays straight, the only reason it was close was because the winner cost herself half a length by not running in a straight line.

I did admit that placing the winner behind the 2nd horse wasnt the worst call ever, but to place her behind the 3rd horse was a joke, the horse who finished 3rd was never finishing any better than 3rd, she wasnt gaining on the top 2 horses at all, the incident happened right near the wire, it was a case of giving the shaft to the out of town barn and the out of town jock at the expense of the bettors.

SRU Downs, where winners get paid.

[burnsy]

Talk about a punch in the gut....that was a tough beat for me. Yes, i bet ALL of my selections that i post or i wouldn't post them...there goes the win, place, and double for me. :mad: But it was a consistant call the way they've been doing it. It did affect the outcome too, if that horse runs straight it probably easily wins without it being close. The shortest path is a straight line and this horse has a habit of drifting. Did the same thing when it won the G3 before this race. That one definetly hurt, tiz horse racing....today is a new day.....turn the page. I didn't like it, but rules are rules and you can't change it by bitching or letting it affect future wagers by being pissed off. Shake it off and move on. Just be prepared because they are calling everything....if a short priced horse gets away with this.....then i'll be pissed.

[BetHorses!]

I am bias due to having the winner and the ex and eventual pk 3..then I got zip

Its the correct call when they start taking horses down out of the starting gate where the real interference is. Anything basically goes when the gates open

#3 was not winning or getting 2nd. Home job call. Pletcher stays, Rosario stays

There was drifting but I did not see contact. It did not affect the order of finish

[burnsy]

I agree with most of what you said (Bet Horses) but they have been consistantly calling these races with DQ's...Its overboard if you are a bettor but we don't make the rules. They don't want people or horses getting hurt, i understand, but its still a game, a sport, wheres theres always going to be contention, drifting, shuffling and squeezing. Believe me, if i didn't see like outcomes BEFORE this or AFTER this......i'll be MORE upset. But they are drawing the line on this stuff....some of it still gets by when no one notices.....but yesterday.....i got burned good. I knew it the second the call (objection) was made. If your number blinks you are in BIG trouble.

[the little guy]

I only complain about the ones that are BS, and this was one of them. Don't worry, Andy will still be your friend if you are critical of them in any way, i promise, he will still love you.


Your BS knows no bounds. You follow me on Twitter and then can't resist making this obnoxious post? Really? I guess you miss my frequent comments about the Stewards? I guess you miss how often I post about disagreeing with them?

One of the Stewards is a NYRA employee. But you knew that. In fact, you know a great deal. You might not know it from a lot of your cries for attention around here, but you do know when you are posting BS, and this comment is surely an example of that.

I thought it was a clear cut correct call. Some agree, some disagree. That's horse racing. The problem with the internet is some people turn opinions into opportunities to take personal pot shots. Twitter has the block function. PaceAdvantage has ignore. Both work well.

[burnsy]

By todays standards it was a clear cut call.....but you know as well as i do Andy, years ago, many of these would be non calls. I'd like to see the INCREASE in frequency if there is such a record kept. Especially in stakes races where they used to hardly ever call anything. The derby is probably the roughest run, big race around.......when do they take anyone down? Its a safety issue, thats the only way to justify it. I just don't think those horses were going to pass the winner.....either way. Thats my only problem with it, of course, plus the fact i bet it, i'll admit that. Its hard to bet against safety, so i have to eat it and move on, but the calls are way tighter than they ever were, theres no denying that.

[Valuist]

Unless you toss out Sunrise Sue (or whatever her name is) and she goes wire to wire and nobody can gain an inch, than speed is good all of a sudden! :D

You're right though, some of those races speed dies a horrible death, i bet that grey horse who got loose in the 51 half in that race and i lost to that robbie davis crud, that race was a typical "graveyard of favorites" race that absolutely no rhyme or reason to be able to have that exacta. Those were 2 dead closers in a race with no pace, a decent horse got loose and crawled home like he was shot.

That 8th race at Saratoga last Saturday will be a negative key race, IMO. I want nobody out of that race.

[lsosa54]

It's not a redboard when there were multiple live in-the-flesh witnesses...including people who knew what I was betting before the race...

Absolute truth as I was standing next to PA watching the race. I got dq'd into the $100 exacta but I thought it was a fair dq watching the replay from various angles and you sort of felt right away he was coming down. Not too dissimilar from the Arlington Million, in which I also got dq'd into the winner.

While I felt good about going from zilch to the $100 exacta, PA did leave some cash on the table after the dq. He killed them at Monmouth so I don't feel too bad for him.

Come down and join us one year. I'd think you'd like the rock stars like PA, Andy S,and CJ, and the rest of the regular schmoes like me that were there. We're nice guys.

BTW, given the guy has no time doing what he does, Andy S. came down from the booth on 2 occasions to chat and hang out with all of us, not just PA. I know you guys would like him.

[burnsy]

I didn't know you guys were there or where you were. I'm there almost every day. I wasn't saying anything bad about the Stewards or Andy, like that other guy was. I'm just steamed i got taken down and i think the rules are interpeted way tighter.....thats all. Plus i think i bet the best horse that day. Theres been at least 3 stakes i can think of off the top of my head taken down in 3 weeks. Won't be the first time i got taken down or the last, i'm sure. Its been fair and pretty consistant....but this isn't basketball either. Andy is alright, i've known him since 6 th grade...hes a pain in the ass......just like i am. I'm a tad worse though.

[Stillriledup]

Your BS knows no bounds. You follow me on Twitter and then can't resist making this obnoxious post? Really? I guess you miss my frequent comments about the Stewards? I guess you miss how often I post about disagreeing with them?

One of the Stewards is a NYRA employee. But you knew that. In fact, you know a great deal. You might not know it from a lot of your cries for attention around here, but you do know when you are posting BS, and this comment is surely an example of that.

I thought it was a clear cut correct call. Some agree, some disagree. That's horse racing. The problem with the internet is some people turn opinions into opportunities to take personal pot shots. Twitter has the block function. PaceAdvantage has ignore. Both work well.

How about this. Give me ONE example, at any NYRA track, in the last year, where you thought the stewards were wrong.

[Stillriledup]

By todays standards it was a clear cut call.....but you know as well as i do Andy, years ago, many of these would be non calls. I'd like to see the INCREASE in frequency if there is such a record kept. Especially in stakes races where they used to hardly ever call anything. The derby is probably the roughest run, big race around.......when do they take anyone down? Its a safety issue, thats the only way to justify it. I just don't think those horses were going to pass the winner.....either way. Thats my only problem with it, of course, plus the fact i bet it, i'll admit that. Its hard to bet against safety, so i have to eat it and move on, but the calls are way tighter than they ever were, theres no denying that.

If its a safety issue, why not leave the results alone and give the jocks longer suspensions and fines? Is there a need to play god with the public's money to discipline a rider who didnt keep an exact straight line?

[PhantomOnTour]

A lot of DQs in big races lately...

Arl Million
Lake Placid
Adirondack

[Stillriledup]

A lot of DQs in big races lately...

Arl Million
Lake Placid
Adirondack

The Orino DQ was BS and the Cashman DQ was BS imo. I didnt watch the Million so i don't have an opinion on that call, but you're right, seems like a lot of moving and shaking and playing god in these big owners races. I know personally, if i make a wager on a race, i consider it a big race. Its a big race for me, so if there's a DQ in a race i bet on, its a "big race" DQ.

[cj]

I only complain about the ones that are BS, and this was one of them. Don't worry, Andy will still be your friend if you are critical of them in any way, i promise, he will still love you.

Why make it personal? PA is a friend of Andy's, and a friend of a lot of people, because he is an incredibly nice guy. You really think Andy is the kind of guy that would de-friend someone because they knock something that happens at a NY track? If that was the case, he would have tossed me a long time ago.

[Stillriledup]

Your BS knows no bounds. You follow me on Twitter and then can't resist making this obnoxious post? Really? I guess you miss my frequent comments about the Stewards? I guess you miss how often I post about disagreeing with them?

One of the Stewards is a NYRA employee. But you knew that. In fact, you know a great deal. You might not know it from a lot of your cries for attention around here, but you do know when you are posting BS, and this comment is surely an example of that.

I thought it was a clear cut correct call. Some agree, some disagree. That's horse racing. The problem with the internet is some people turn opinions into opportunities to take personal pot shots. Twitter has the block function. PaceAdvantage has ignore. Both work well.

I apologize if i insulted you in any way, i didnt mean to insult you, i like you and appreciate your effort and you giving your info away that you work very hard to attain.

As far as this being the correct call goes, if i may ask you this question, you know, to keep it civil, do you think the 3rd place finisher was going to finish better than 3rd if she wasnt bothered?

[Stillriledup]

Why make it personal? PA is a friend of Andy's, and a friend of a lot of people, because he is an incredibly nice guy. You really think Andy is the kind of guy that would de-friend someone because they knock something that happens at a NY track? If that was the case, he would have tossed me a long time ago.

I was trying to make a joke, that obviously didnt go over too well. I didnt mean to make it personal, that wasnt my intention.

[cj]

Also, you're quoting equibase? Their comments are house comments, they make those comments after they know there's a DQ or not a DQ, if there's a DQ they'll reflect that in their comments, the guy writing the comments has no choice but to 'agree' with what the judges do...so, i don't put too much stock in that either.


You have no idea what you are talking about above.

[cj]

How about this. Give me ONE example, at any NYRA track, in the last year, where you thought the stewards were wrong.

Like he said, if you follow him on twitter, there are MANY examples. Andy never shies from giving his opinion, and it matters not what the stewards decide.

[Stillriledup]

You have no idea what you are talking about above.

Every DQ on the face of the earth is "Accepted" by the chart caller. Are you saying that the chart caller would "ignore" a DQ in his writeup if he disagreed with it?

[PhantomOnTour]

The Orino DQ was BS and the Cashman DQ was BS imo. I didnt watch the Million so i don't have an opinion on that call, but you're right, seems like a lot of moving and shaking and playing god in these big owners races. I know personally, if i make a wager on a race, i consider it a big race. Its a big race for me, so if there's a DQ in a race i bet on, its a "big race" DQ.
Chill out bro...when the stews make a decision they are not "playing God", they are actually playing steward, which is their job.
All I want is consistency, and I admit that the NYRA stews aren't exactly models of that, but lately they have made a consistent statement regarding herding and bumping in the lane...don't do it.

I had win bets on Nellie & Orino, and was a loser in the Million either way the decision went (so I guess I broke even)...but I agree with all three DQs.

[Stillriledup]

Like he said, if you follow him on twitter, there are MANY examples. Andy never shies from giving his opinion, and it matters not what the stewards decide.

I don't remember him being critical of the judges for a bad call, but if you say there are examples, i believe you.

[cj]

Every DQ on the face of the earth is "Accepted" by the chart caller. Are you saying that the chart caller would "ignore" a DQ in his writeup if he disagreed with it?

I have seen plenty of charts where the chart caller implied he disagreed with a DQ decision, or thought a DQ should have been made and wasn't. Of course they always cite any objections/inquiries and the result.

[cj]

I don't remember him being critical of the judges for a bad call, but if you say there are examples, i believe you.

He gives his opinion. I don't call that being critical. If the stewards disagree, he isn't going to go on Twitter and call them dopes.

[Stillriledup]

I have seen plenty of charts where the chart caller implied he disagreed with a DQ decision, or thought a DQ should have been made and wasn't. Of course they always cite any objections/inquiries and the result.

I dont remember too many instances where the chart caller wrote in such a way to suggest that what the stewards decided didnt really happen. Do you have an example in mind?

[Stillriledup]

He gives his opinion. I don't call that being critical. If the stewards disagree, he isn't going to go on Twitter and call them dopes.

I applaud his opinion being free from bias, that's hard to juggle when you have bosses and co workers feelings to consider.

[cj]

I dont remember too many instances where the chart caller wrote in such a way to suggest that what the stewards decided didnt really happen. Do you have an example in mind?

I remember that huge favorite at MNR getting DQed (Nicole's Dream?) and the chart maker made it obvious he thought it was a joke. Of course my memory isn't what it used to be, so I could be wrong.

[Stillriledup]

I remember that huge favorite at MNR getting DQed (Nicole's Dream?) and the chart maker made it obvious he thought it was a joke. Of course my memory isn't what it used to be, so I could be wrong.

There was a ridiculous DQ at Mtn recently, a horse won by 7 lengths in a stakes race and was disqualified for something minor, i cant remember, maybe Russell Road was the horse placed first? If i can remember that day, i'd love to see what he wrote about that one.

[cj]

https://www.brisnet.com/secure-bin/brisclub/archives_pdf.cgi?type=arc&country=USA&track=MNR&date=2006-08-21&race=0

Not sure if that will work unless you login to BRIS.

[cj]

There was a ridiculous DQ at Mtn recently, a horse won by 7 lengths in a stakes race and was disqualified for something minor, i cant remember, maybe Russell Road was the horse placed first? If i can remember that day, i'd love to see what he wrote about that one.

I'm sure you could have looked it up in the time it took to make that post.

[Stillriledup]

I'm sure you could have looked it up in the time it took to make that post.

I probably could have, if i was smarter. :D

[moneyandland]

Chart

http://www.equibase.com/static/chart/pdf/MNR080313USA6.pdf

[menifee]

Chill out bro...when the stews make a decision they are not "playing God", they are actually playing steward, which is their job.
All I want is consistency, and I admit that the NYRA stews aren't exactly models of that, but lately they have made a consistent statement regarding herding and bumping in the lane...don't do it.

I had win bets on Nellie & Orino, and was a loser in the Million either way the decision went (so I guess I broke even)...but I agree with all three DQs.

Race 5 on Sunday. Was that consistency regarding herding and bumping in the lane? Watch the 2nd and 3rd place horses. No inquiry.

[menifee]

It's not a redboard when there were multiple live in-the-flesh witnesses...including people who knew what I was betting before the race...being a dick is not always your forte you know...

Making a joke - even a weekend at the Spa could not resolve your anger issues, huh?

[cj]

Making a joke - even a weekend at the Spa could not resolve your anger issues, huh?

Anger issues, from PA? ROFLMAO. There probably isn't a more laid back guy in the world than him.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Anger issues, from PA? ROFLMAO. There probably isn't a more laid back guy in the world than him.

I actually read Menifee's post as a joke and was surprised by PA's reaction (but I don't know about their history/past interactions). I agreed with PA's overarching point about SRU --- SRU you complain too much!

[the little guy]

How about this. Give me ONE example, at any NYRA track, in the last year, where you thought the stewards were wrong.

There have been so many instances where I have openly disagreed with them, both on air and on Twitter, that it is embarrassing for you that you even made that post.

Thanks for the laugh. I needed it after the complete non-effort on the horse I just bet.

[Stillriledup]

There have been so many instances where I have openly disagreed with them, both on air and on Twitter, that it is embarrassing for you that you even made that post.

Thanks for the laugh. I needed it after the complete non-effort on the horse I just bet.

I hear you, i bet the 7th also and didnt hit the top 4.

I apologize, my bad for not knowing about that, hopefully we can still be pals?

[Stillriledup]

I actually read Menifee's post as a joke and was surprised by PA's reaction (but I don't know about their history/past interactions). I agreed with PA's overarching point about SRU --- SRU you complain too much!

I only complain when i have something to complain about.

Yogi-ism? :D

[iceknight]

I hear you, i bet the 7th also and didnt hit the top 4.

I apologize, my bad for not knowing about that, hopefully we can still be pals? Never heard of Nicole's Dream before, so I looked up her record.. and the last race (name of the stakes).. is where I see this thread heading now :lol: :lol:
http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbPDFChartPlus.cfm?BORP=P&STYLE=EQB&DAY=D&tid=CD&dt=11/12/2006&ctry=USA&race=9

[FrankieFigs]

https://www.brisnet.com/secure-bin/brisclub/archives_pdf.cgi?type=arc&country=USA&track=MNR&date=2006-08-21&race=0

Not sure if that will work unless you login to BRIS.

I remember listening to At The Races and Beyond the following day. I can't remember if it was JJ Graci or Steve Byk (or both) going absolutely nuts for 15 minutes about this DQ. I think there was a caller that joined in the rant, too.

[Broad Brush]

Maybe some of my point is sour grapes as this DQ at Spa cost me
at least 10k yesterday. I am an avid fan of NYRA racing and follow it
everyday. This what I have seen thru the years as far as DQs go:

There are two different standards as far as does a horse get DQ'd or not.
These two standards (not hugely different-but different) are based on who rode
and trained the horse in question. High profile trainers and jockeys get a little
more room to play than the more obscure ones get. If that horse yesterday
was ridden by J.R. and train by Todd P. maybe there would not have been a DQ. They would have said "well it was right at the wire....tough call".
Also, jockeys who have a "rep" as to getting DQ'd and getting days, will get
taken down for the same move that a top jock who rides clean will not
get DQ'd for. Jerry Bailey could get away with moves that Norberto Arroyo
was going on vacation for. I have seen too much of this to not legitimately
think this way. Anybody else see this??

[BetHorses!]

Maybe some of my point is sour grapes as this DQ at Spa cost me
at least 10k yesterday. I am an avid fan of NYRA racing and follow it
everyday. This what I have seen thru the years as far as DQs go:

There are two different standards as far as does a horse get DQ'd or not.
These two standards (not hugely different-but different) are based on who rode
and trained the horse in question. High profile trainers and jockeys get a little
more room to play than the more obscure ones get. If that horse yesterday
was ridden by J.R. and train by Todd P. maybe there would not have been a DQ. They would have said "well it was right at the wire....tough call".
Also, jockeys who have a "rep" as to getting DQ'd and getting days, will get
taken down for the same move that a top jock who rides clean will not
get DQ'd for. Jerry Bailey could get away with moves that Norberto Arroyo
was going on vacation for. I have seen too much of this to not legitimately
think this way. Anybody else see this??

1000% and its funny cause I said exactly this on CJ's private board "Pletcher woulda stayed, Rosario woulda stayed."


Without question I agree

[RXB]

Nellie Cashman drifted out several paths and impeded two onrushing foes who only lost by a nose and a neck-- and the incident occurred 20-30 yards from the wire. Too bad for Boyce because it was the horse's own doing, not his fault, but that's the game sometimes.

The DQ of Orino, I can see an argument against it even though I think it was probably the right call (and it cost me). I don't see how anyone can argue with the DQ's of Nellie Cashman or The Apache. Blatant, obvious fouls in close finishes. Not that the stewards haven't bungled such matters in the past but those were rather easy calls to make.

[BetHorses!]

Nellie Cashman drifted out several paths and impeded two onrushing foes who only lost by a nose and a neck-- .


Two foes? So how come Rosie didnt claim foul..?

[Quagmire]

From the DRF

The beneficiary of the call was Caroline Thomas, ridden by Rosie Napravnik for trainer Barclay Tagg and owner and breeder Joyce Young.

In the stretch, Caroline Thomas rallied outside of Watsdachances, and the two were streaking to the line together when Nellie Cashman drifted out. Napravnik said the drifting didn’t impede her ability to ride her horse, but she wondered if Castellano would claim foul on her as well.

“I was confident I kept my path straight,” Napravnik said. “I figured he might have taken a shot. I don’t think we would have come down. I can say I’m glad I didn’t have to claim foul on Forest. She’s a good friend of mine, and her filly ran great. My filly really ran a winning race as well.”
The final time was 1:47.36 for 1 1/8 miles, and Caroline Thomas returned $25.20 to win.

[PaceAdvantage]

I have seen plenty of charts where the chart caller implied he disagreed with a DQ decision, or thought a DQ should have been made and wasn't. Of course they always cite any objections/inquiries and the result.If you read the chart comments of Nellie, it seems to me the chart caller disagreed with the DQ...

And SRU, as for placing her fourth, wasn't it the third place finisher who claimed foul on Nellie? If the Stewards uphold that claim, then they have to place her fourth.

[PaceAdvantage]

Making a joke - even a weekend at the Spa could not resolve your anger issues, huh?If I had anger issues, you'd know it by now.

[PaceAdvantage]

Nellie Cashman drifted out several paths and impeded two onrushing foes who only lost by a nose and a neck-- and the incident occurred 20-30 yards from the wire.This is what people like SRU keep ignoring. How close the finish was. Nellie came out SEVERAL paths and interfered with more than one horse. Was it the worst interference ever? No.

But because the finish was so close, it was practically a given the winner was going to be DQ'd. I knew it as soon as I saw the HEAD ON. And yes SRU, it's as good a HEAD ON as you're going to get....to call it a PAN is absurd.

[Stretch Out]

I feel your frustration of getting taken down for a nice little score. I gotta concur with you that JV, Mike Smith or Bailey had been on Nellie Cashman instead of Forrest Boyce, she might have stayed up.

Subconsciously I think the top jocks get more "good calls" just like a Kobe Bryant, Mariano Rivera or any sports superstar, might get he benefit of the doubt in their respective sport.

Might be hard to DQ a Pletcher or Phipps horse at NYRA. This isn't going to enter my gambling equation though- I got enough problems just picking live horses.

[BetHorses!]

But because the finish was so close.


Yes but Rosie is on record saying she was not interfered with and that is confirmed by her not claiming foul...you would think with such a close finish she would claim also...

Do you really think it cost #3 a placing..?

[PaceAdvantage]

Yes but Rosie is on record saying she was not interfered withI only saw the replays live. (that's an oxymoron if I ever read one)

I haven't looked since. What path was Rosie in? How many horses was she removed from Nellie is what I'm asking.

[BetHorses!]

Can someone post the replay with the head on..?

[Quagmire]

http://www.nyra.com/saratoga/videos/race-replay/STD/2013/20130818/8/headon/

The 4 comes out at least 5 paths.

[letswastemoney]

I benefited from the disqualification.

I suppose I could have given it more thought as to whether it was fair.

Instead I went to a nice Japanese restaurant and treated myself to a good meal. Heck, I may do that again today.

[BetHorses!]

Again the other thing is anything goes out of the starting gate...who was the last horse in NY to be DQ'd out of the gate?? I can't remember. It has to be so obvious where you wipe out half the field. I think Jewel of the Cat won and bumped somebody at the start but prior to that there was another winner who wiped somebody out and not a blink. I'll have to watch some replays and figure out who that was.

Bottom line yesterday was no contact so it really came down to what Broad Brush said...had that been Pletcher or Rosario and the girl shipper finished 2nd, no way are they taking down and giving the ship in the victory.

[BetHorses!]

http://www.nyra.com/saratoga/videos/race-replay/STD/2013/20130818/8/headon/

The 4 comes out at least 5 paths.

Thank you.. I've seen worse. I am very bias cause it cost me good..Plus just had a wisdom tooth pulled and I'd rather be taken down LOL

One other thing, Durkin didn't pick up on it and seemed surprised by the inquiry imo

[Stretch Out]

NYRA rarely seems to DQ a horse for a wild turn out of the starting gate- yet for the past year or two they now show a head on replay of the start, just after the race has been run. It always looks like a rodeo to me- wish they would just show the stretch replays.

[PaceAdvantage]

Is it me, or did they show another, more "head-on" angle during the inquiry? After watching the head-on reply on the NYRA site just now, I distinctly remember seeing a better angle when I was up at Saratoga watching while the inquiry was in progress.

Or was I imagining things?

[Quagmire]

That's the only head on replay I could find.

Here's the ruling...seems pretty clear cut to me that the 4 had to come down.

Race Decisions - August 18, 2013

Race 8: Steward’s Inquiry and Jockey’s Objection: Javier Castellano, the rider of # 3 Watsdachances, lodged an objection against the winner, # 4 Nellie Cashman (Forest Boyce) for interference in the stretch.

After passing the 1/16 pole, # 4 shifts out, carrying # 3 and # 7 Caroline Thomas (R. Napravnik) out several paths while driving through the wire.

# 4 is disqualified from first and placed third. The revised order of finish: 7 – 3 – 4 – 1

Watch Replay

4035.2. Foul riding penalized.

(a) When clear, a horse may be taken to any part of the course provided that crossing or weaving in front of contenders may constitute interference or intimidation for which the offender may be disciplined.

(b) A horse crossing another may be disqualified, if in the judgment of the stewards, it interferes with, impedes or intimidates another horse, or the foul altered the finish of the race, regardless of whether the foul was accidental, willful, or the result of careless riding. The stewards may also take into consideration mitigating factors, such as whether the impeded horse was partly at fault or the crossing was wholly caused by the fault of some other horse or jockey.

(c) If a horse or jockey jostles another horse, the aggressor may be disqualified, unless the impeding horse or his jockey was partly in fault or the jostle was wholly caused by the fault of some other horse or jockey

[RXB]

NYRA rarely seems to DQ a horse for a wild turn out of the starting gate- yet for the past year or two they now show a head on replay of the start, just after the race has been run. It always looks like a rodeo to me- wish they would just show the stretch replays.

Typically the stewards allow about three strides out of the gate since they know that horses often don't break in a straight line. After that they're supposed to be under control.

[RXB]

Is it me, or did they show another, more "head-on" angle during the inquiry? After watching the head-on reply on the NYRA site just now, I distinctly remember seeing a better angle when I was up at Saratoga watching while the inquiry was in progress.

Or was I imagining things?

The "head-on" replay on the NYRA site is not as head-on as what was shown live during the inquiry. I have access to the replay of the live feed and the inquiry head-on angle is much closer to being genuinely head-on.

[Phantombridgejumpe]

I made the same mistake a couple months ago, check out a picture of the jockey on google.

[RXB]

I made the same mistake a couple months ago, check out a picture of the jockey on google.

And I bet on Colonial Downs' races faithfully each year... :sleeping: :blush:

[Stillriledup]

If you read the chart comments of Nellie, it seems to me the chart caller disagreed with the DQ...

And SRU, as for placing her fourth, wasn't it the third place finisher who claimed foul on Nellie? If the Stewards uphold that claim, then they have to place her fourth.

I think i didnt talk about placing her 4th, if i did, i misspoke, my bone of contention is that the physical winner didnt cost Javy a placing. I dont know if Joel claimed foul also.

[Stillriledup]

This is what people like SRU keep ignoring. How close the finish was. Nellie came out SEVERAL paths and interfered with more than one horse. Was it the worst interference ever? No.

But because the finish was so close, it was practically a given the winner was going to be DQ'd. I knew it as soon as I saw the HEAD ON. And yes SRU, it's as good a HEAD ON as you're going to get....to call it a PAN is absurd.

I'm not ignoring anything, i know the finish was "close" but your definition of close and my definition are 2 different things. Forget the head on, or almost head on or whatever they're calling it these days because the amount of lanes that the winner drifts is what get her "guilty as charged". If you watch the actual race, on the regular pan shot, you can see the 3rd place finisher was not gaining at the moment of the interference. Rosie passed Javy and the winner came out very late but Javy never stopped riding, his horse wasnt "taken up" he didnt stand up in the irons and the horse never "broke stride". She wasnt gaining on either horse. That was the gist (or Jist) of my argument that it didnt cost Javy a placing.

[KirisClown]

Is it me, or did they show another, more "head-on" angle during the inquiry? After watching the head-on reply on the NYRA site just now, I distinctly remember seeing a better angle when I was up at Saratoga watching while the inquiry was in progress.

Or was I imagining things?

The head-on is from a little bit of a different angle in this video.. it starts at the 3:42 mark..

I552Yw5tw3A

[BetHorses!]

The head-on is from a little bit of a different angle in this video.. it starts at the 3:42 mark..

I552Yw5tw3A

Watch from 3:42 to 3:46 before the incident...the #3 drifts out on the #7 just about the same amount the #4 drifts out before the wire.

No way #3 was getting a place. If you say the DQ was right that's fine but if you say it cost #3 a place..u r nuts

[BetHorses!]

I watched 100 times...I'll admit the DQ was prob the right call. I got it down to 4:40 that screen shot right before wire there was contact after the drifting.

Funny thing is I think the 3 drifting out on the 7 prior to that was more of a factor preventing the 7 from actually getting up to begin with.

All in all its the best game in town..!

[iceknight]

SRU .. did you bet on Prince Will I am in the BC Marathon in 2010 ?

Here, you can watch again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrShZiMUPio

[menifee]

That's the only head on replay I could find.

Here's the ruling...seems pretty clear cut to me that the 4 had to come down.

Race Decisions - August 18, 2013

Race 8: Steward’s Inquiry and Jockey’s Objection: Javier Castellano, the rider of # 3 Watsdachances, lodged an objection against the winner, # 4 Nellie Cashman (Forest Boyce) for interference in the stretch.

After passing the 1/16 pole, # 4 shifts out, carrying # 3 and # 7 Caroline Thomas (R. Napravnik) out several paths while driving through the wire.

# 4 is disqualified from first and placed third. The revised order of finish: 7 – 3 – 4 – 1

Watch Replay

4035.2. Foul riding penalized.

(a) When clear, a horse may be taken to any part of the course provided that crossing or weaving in front of contenders may constitute interference or intimidation for which the offender may be disciplined.

(b) A horse crossing another may be disqualified, if in the judgment of the stewards, it interferes with, impedes or intimidates another horse, or the foul altered the finish of the race, regardless of whether the foul was accidental, willful, or the result of careless riding. The stewards may also take into consideration mitigating factors, such as whether the impeded horse was partly at fault or the crossing was wholly caused by the fault of some other horse or jockey.

(c) If a horse or jockey jostles another horse, the aggressor may be disqualified, unless the impeding horse or his jockey was partly in fault or the jostle was wholly caused by the fault of some other horse or jockey

Wow these rules are really poorly written and completely capricious.

1. The rules are meaningless because they use the word "may." That means it is not mandatory - the stewards have absolute discretion no matter what happens in the race.

2.It should say "and" the foul altered the finish of the race. The way this is written if a horse impedes another horse and does not alter the finish, the stewards still have the discretion to disqualify.

The contact happened so close to the finish line that it does not cost the 3 or the 7 a placing. That is my point. The pan shot makes that clear. By the way, I benefitted from the DQ and I'm arguing it was a bad dq.

[PaceAdvantage]

The "head-on" replay on the NYRA site is not as head-on as what was shown live during the inquiry. I have access to the replay of the live feed and the inquiry head-on angle is much closer to being genuinely head-on.I knew I wasn't imagining it...as soon as I saw the replay posted here, I know I had seen something much more defining and better suited to judge just how far over the winner crossed.

Thanks for corroborating...

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm not ignoring anything, i know the finish was "close" but your definition of close and my definition are 2 different things. Forget the head on, or almost head on or whatever they're calling it these days because the amount of lanes that the winner drifts is what get her "guilty as charged". If you watch the actual race, on the regular pan shot, you can see the 3rd place finisher was not gaining at the moment of the interference. Rosie passed Javy and the winner came out very late but Javy never stopped riding, his horse wasnt "taken up" he didnt stand up in the irons and the horse never "broke stride". She wasnt gaining on either horse. That was the gist (or Jist) of my argument that it didnt cost Javy a placing.But the very fact that these horses were pushed to the outside of the track, 3-4 paths at least, meant they lost ground moving sideways...and since the finish was only a nose, the ground lost while moving sideways could have easily cost the 2nd place finisher the win, or at least a dead-heat.

This is basic stuff.

[PaceAdvantage]

The head-on is from a little bit of a different angle in this video.. it starts at the 3:42 mark..

I552Yw5tw3A Thanks...that's what I remember seeing...and that angle is definitive and shows just how much the winner interfered with those other horses late...to say that being pushed out 3-4 paths doesn't cost you a nose at the finish is ignoring reality.

[Stillriledup]

Thanks...that's what I remember seeing...and that angle is definitive and shows just how much the winner interfered with those other horses late...to say that being pushed out 3-4 paths doesn't cost you a nose at the finish is ignoring reality.

It was a half length, the 3rd place finisher lost the race by 1/2 length and claimed foul. Castellano had a frivilous foul claim in the first race the other day that was disallowed, i guess he can just claim foul and "Take a shot". This time it worked, brilliant move by him.

[PaceAdvantage]

It was a half length, the 3rd place finisher lost the race by 1/2 length and claimed foul. Castellano had a frivilous foul claim in the first race the other day that was disallowed, i guess he can just claim foul and "Take a shot". This time it worked, brilliant move by him.Are you claiming the 2nd place finisher was not forced out 3-4 paths near the finish?

Perhaps I am in error and was watching the wrong horse the entire time.

[Stillriledup]

Are you claiming the 2nd place finisher was not forced out 3-4 paths near the finish?

Perhaps I am in error and was watching the wrong horse the entire time.

I was just talking about the 3rd place finisher not "breaking stride". I believe the 3rd place finisher was carried out 1.5 or 2 paths at most. I don't think it was 3 or 4.

I think that if Javy would have stood up and pulled a Cordero he would have made it hard to really determine if he was cost a placing.

I dont believe the 3rd place finisher was cost a placing.

[PaceAdvantage]

Sigh. I'm talking about the 2nd place finisher...you know, the one who lost by a nose.

[Stillriledup]

Sigh. I'm talking about the 2nd place finisher...you know, the one who lost by a nose.

I did admit that taking the winner down wouldnt have been the "worst call in history"( in post 1 of this thread) which is my way of saying that i wouldnt have taken the horse down at SRU (where winners get paid) but i can't say that the drifting didnt cost that horse the win. The margin was pretty close, so she might have won if not hindered. I was mostly questioning the judges idea to place the winner 3rd. The jock on the 3rd horse "took a shot" in my opinion and somehow got rewarded.

[rastajenk]

They didn't have a choice, once they decided a DQ was necessary. When the :4: impedes the :3: , you place the offender behind the offended. There was never a chance they could take her down just one spot behind the :7: . That's just basic stuff that you ought to know, seems like.

Having said that, I disagree with the call. No doubt the :4: was moving out; plenty of doubt whether interference actually occurred.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

Wow these rules are really poorly written and completely capricious.

And enforced in an entirely inconsistent fashion.

Though SRU and I don't seem to be making very many converts, there's enough threads on the topic of DQs that it seems obvious that this is a big problem in racing.

Yet, for some reason, I don't ever recall any track or racing commission seriously considering an alternative to the present system. Shouldn't all of the subjective analysis and consideration of determining which horses bumped who, when and how badly be done without the overriding pressure of making a result official and getting to the next race?

Dog racing rules - pay'em how they finish!

[Stillriledup]

They didn't have a choice, once they decided a DQ was necessary. When the :4: impedes the :3: , you place the offender behind the offended. There was never a chance they could take her down just one spot behind the :7: . That's just basic stuff that you ought to know, seems like.

Having said that, I disagree with the call. No doubt the :4: was moving out; plenty of doubt whether interference actually occurred.

This isnt always the case, especially in So Cal. I've seen DQs where a few horses got bumped but they only placed the horse behind one horse even though technically more than one horse got bothered.

It comes down to "cost a placing" and i dont even know if NY has these rules, it seems like they ought to look into it.