High Speed Rail vs Tesla hyperloop

[iceknight]

I am reading through the "Technical paper" of Tesla's elon musk's Hyperloop idea right now.

http://money.cnn.com/2013/08/12/news/economy/hyperloop-elon-musk/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

(paper : http://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/blog_images/hyperloop-alpha.pdf )

My main concern, after a quick review of the document, is with estimation of component assembly at this point. I think they are massively underestimating installation costs etc, assuming of course that a version of this system can be prototype tested.

Other than that, the g force calculation (especially acceleration discussion) using bend radii analysis is quite good. I welcome discussion here or elsewhere from physicists and science/engineering enthusiasts on this topic.

I should add that HYPERLOOP ALPHA anagrams to HOOPLA PRAY HELP or APPLY HER HOOPLA
and HYPERLOOP BETA anagrams to HOOPLA BY PETER or HOOPLA BEEP TRY..

Oh yeah, we can play anagram games if no one wants to talk physics! :lol:

[TJDave]

Setting aside costs, I really think speed in getting from A to B has past its prime. Advancements in communication/internet have made travel less a necessity.

The real bottleneck is the last few miles, or fifty. I can't see how 'high speed' anything is gonna solve that problem.

[iceknight]

Setting aside costs, I really think speed in getting from A to B has past its prime. Advancements in communication/internet have made travel less a necessity.
The real bottleneck is the last few miles, or fifty. I can't see how 'high speed' anything is gonna solve that problem. I wish I could be at Saratoga... but communication and internet are not helping me ignore the fact that it would take 5 hr 25 mins to drive from my place.

[TJDave]

I wish I could be at Saratoga... but communication and internet are not helping me ignore the fact that it would take 5 hr 25 mins to drive from my place.

I'd wager that any high speed transportation system conceived or built ain't ever gonna go to Saratoga. ;)

[highnote]

TJDave has a point. Do we really need to get from LA to SF in 30 minutes?

That point aside, I like the idea of big projects. It would create a lot of jobs and if it is more efficient than flying or driving then in the long run it could save a lot of money which could be put towards new investments.

I did not read the entire proposal. How many pods would be in use at one time in one direction? How far apart would they be spaced? How many passengers would they hold?

[Clocker]

Do we really need to get from LA to SF in 30 minutes?



What's the flight time between LA and SF? Looks like maybe 60-90 minutes to me. What's it worth to someone to cut that down to 30 minutes?

[mostpost]

TJDave has a point. Do we really need to get from LA to SF in 30 minutes?

That point aside, I like the idea of big projects. It would create a lot of jobs and if it is more efficient than flying or driving then in the long run it could save a lot of money which could be put towards new investments.

I did not read the entire proposal. How many pods would be in use at one time in one direction? How far apart would they be spaced? How many passengers would they hold?
The pods would be spaced 23 miles apart according to the technical paper. That means there could be about 15 pods traveling in each direction. Each pod would hold 28 passengers. Which means 840 passengers an hour could travel between the two cities.

[mostpost]

What's the flight time between LA and SF? Looks like maybe 60-90 minutes to me. What's it worth to someone to cut that down to 30 minutes?
All of American Airlines flights between LA and SF are one hour and twenty-five minutes. But asking "What's it worth to someone to cut that down to 30 minutes?" indicates that you did not read the technical paper. That question assumes that one would have to pay more to achieve the faster time.

Again from the AA website, the cheapest round trip fare is $257.00. The anticipated one way fare on the hyperloop is $20.00-$40.00 round trip. In other words it would cost you six times as much to go three times slower.

There are also environmental effects to consider. I tried to find out how much fuel is used by an airplane flying from LA to SF, but the answers are all over the map. Nevertheless, I think it safe to say that the environmental impact of an airplane flight would be much greater than the effects from a closed system like the hyperloop.

All these answers are predicated on the assumption that this system will actually work and will cost about what the author says it will cost. I have no idea if either is the case.

[Clocker]

But asking "What's it worth to someone to cut that down to 30 minutes?" indicates that you did not read the technical paper.


I'm not much into reading science fiction these days. I stopped reading when I saw the estimate of a total construction cost of $6 billion. Permits, environmental studies, and litigation costs are that much for a major construction project in California these days. Demand estimates for these kinds of projects, as for high speed rail, are also total fluff.

Not that I care, because even in a best case scenario, it can't even get started in my lifetime. And it can't get built without government money, but I ain't gonna be around to pay for it.

[LottaKash]

Will the TSA still get to feel you up, and/or will they still expose you to a lifetime's worth of X-Rays resulting from a faulty uncalibrated machine ?...:D

[johnhannibalsmith]

Will the TSA still get to feel you up, and/or will they still expose you to a lifetime's worth of X-Rays resulting from a faulty uncalibrated machine ?...:D

My thoughts along this line. Yeah, that flight is only 90 minutes, but the three hours jacking off at the airport dealing with all the idiots there sort of counts for something in my calculations. Saving time is great except for when it takes less time to not save time. :D

[iceknight]

This link discusses the reports in a bunch of bullet points.
http://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-hyperloop-plan-2013-8

And it mostly covers it accurately. I feel that the costs are played down substantially here

[Clocker]

There are some doubters out there.

Why Elon Musk's "hyperloop" transport won't work.
(http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/08/13/hyperloop-elon-musk-tesla-space-x/2646969/)

[iceknight]

There are some doubters out there.

Why Elon Musk's "hyperloop" transport won't work.
(http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/08/13/hyperloop-elon-musk-tesla-space-x/2646969/) There will be always be "some doubters" even after consensus is arrived. But that is not the issue here. What Musk and co proposed is a general idea that is possible to make it happen and while they have preliminary fluid dynamic and stress calculations, the economic and construction assessments, some important safety aspects (when humans need to be tranported) needs to be assessed. But considering this does not use any combustible fuel, the normal explosion risks etc are lowered.

The key question is how far from the proposed $20-$40 per trip/passenger would the actual costs run to.. and who is footing the bill.. the usual questions.

Also, can some other economic comparable alternative come out of the woodwork now that there is a lively discussion on this topic

[Mike at A+]

I just get a little nervous when "California" and "spending" are used in the same sentence.

[mostpost]

I'm not much into reading science fiction these days. I stopped reading when I saw the estimate of a total construction cost of $6 billion. Permits, environmental studies, and litigation costs are that much for a major construction project in California these days. Demand estimates for these kinds of projects, as for high speed rail, are also total fluff.

Not that I care, because even in a best case scenario, it can't even get started in my lifetime. And it can't get built without government money, but I ain't gonna be around to pay for it.
Damn fool Wright Brothers think they can fly through the air like a bird. Never going to happen.
If it were up to people like you we would still be traveling from LA to SF in a stagecoach. What kind of environmental studies are needed for this? It is to be built in the median of I-5 so you don't need to purchase land in most cases. It will be powered by solar panels above the tube so there is no pollution from coal or nuclear. The paper which you did not read allots $1B for permits and land.

[mostpost]

I was in error when I quoted $20 as the one way fare. That fare is actually $105. :blush: Still cheaper than air.

[Clocker]

If it were up to people like you we would still be traveling from LA to SF in a stagecoach.

You are really confused. I warn that the government will hose this up eight ways from Sunday and you translate that to I'm opposed to progress? I am opposed to excessive government regulation.

If we had the same level of government back then as we do now, we would still be riding stage coaches. But they would be a lot slower because of EPA-mandated frequent stops to change the diapers on the horses to protect the environment,and dispose of them in an environmentally approved manner. And slower still because of Teamster Union restrictions on driver hours and breaks. And speed limits to avoid kicking up dust and to not scare the local wild life.

And the Wright brothers would have gone back to building bicycles long before building a plane because of FAA design requirements and noise abatement laws and EPA restrictions about land usage for take offs and landings and Greenpeace protests about flight disrupting local bird colonies.

I am a realist. If this thing ever gets built, which I doubt, it would take years before construction was even approved to start, and the costs would skyrocket. Even without the regulatory problems, the cost estimates in a business plan like that are just made up with no basis in reality.

What kind of environmental studies are needed for this?

It's California. There are bureaucrats out there that live for the opportunity to screw things up.

[hcap]

What strikes me as out of character here on off topic is many of the Ayn Rand John Galt admirers seem not very enthusiastic about a real world "maker"

Ok, I admit it. I watched Atlas Shrugged both part 1 and 2 last night on Netflix. I know a socialist/communist Dem operative cannot EVER DO SUCH A THING. I defied the party line and was bored while planning our next secret takeover. ( if you have seen one revolution, you have seen 'em all) : :lol: ) And although rather simplistic, I did not hate Atlas. Actually found parts interesting. And will watch part 3 if it ever comes out to see who is John Galt. Anyway it does strike me that Musk is s pretty interesting guy and a pretty sharp businessman.

Sort of like Gates and Jobs. I would not discount his technical savvy or business sense. IMHO (some technical background), I found the concept pretty cool
Technical opinion too early without a working prototype. Remember monorails are built throughout the world and have been around for quite a while.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_monorail_systems

I think a NYC to DC route might be economically more feasible. At the rate technology is moving, I think we need guys like Musk

[Mike at A+]

If they are really thinking of building these things on the "median" of major highways, can you just imagine the traffic tie ups that will go on for probably years? At least the Keystone Pipeline is proposed to go through low traffic areas. And solar panels to power these things? SOLAR PANELS? Maybe we can bring back the Solyndra folks for another go at the taxpayer funded troughs? How rich would that be? No wonder some people are giving up their citizenships. If 0bama was eaten by a shark while swimming off Martha's Vineyard, the stock market and the job market would soar.

[Clocker]

If 0bama was eaten by a shark while swimming off Martha's Vineyard, the stock market and the job market would soar.

You want to think about who is next in line and reconsider that? :eek:

Hint: He is the guy that said our number one challenge right now is a 3 letter word, J-O-B-S.

[Mike at A+]

You want to think about who is next in line and reconsider that? :eek:

Hint: He is the guy that said our number one challenge right now is a 3 letter word, J-O-B-S.
Biden is not evil. 0bama IS. Biden is just "challenged".

[mostpost]

If they are really thinking of building these things on the "median" of major highways, can you just imagine the traffic tie ups that will go on for probably years? At least the Keystone Pipeline is proposed to go through low traffic areas. And solar panels to power these things? SOLAR PANELS? Maybe we can bring back the Solyndra folks for another go at the taxpayer funded troughs? How rich would that be? No wonder some people are giving up their citizenships. If 0bama was eaten by a shark while swimming off Martha's Vineyard, the stock market and the job market would soar.
Not these things and not on medians. One thing on mostly one median. I'm sure you didn't, but did look at Google maps to see what the median was like on I-5 in California. For the most part it is sixty feet wide. The proposed tube system would be less than twenty feet wide and that would be elevated twenty feet or higher. At ground level it would be considerably narrower.

Heaven forbid you should read the whole paper but if you had, you would have learned that the components would be prefabbed off site and then moved into place. With sixty feet to work with, I do not see major traffic problems.

If you look at the map of the proposed route, you will see that the system never goes into San Francisco itself. It goes straight east from Oakland to meet with I-5, then follows I-5 to the Los Angeles area. In Los Angeles, the terminus is several miles east of the city. The majority of the route is through rural, low population density areas.

[JustRalph]

Yep that Segway is going to change the world too......

[mostpost]

And solar panels to power these things? SOLAR PANELS? Maybe we can bring back the Solyndra folks for another go at the taxpayer funded troughs?
SOLAR PANELS WORK!!!. Solyndra did not go bankrupt because solar panels don't produce electricity. The central California corridor which I-5 traverses has an extremely high percentage of sunny days. There are many sources of reliable solar panels at reasonable cost.

[Mike at A+]

SOLAR PANELS WORK!!!. Solyndra did not go bankrupt because solar panels don't produce electricity. The central California corridor which I-5 traverses has an extremely high percentage of sunny days. There are many sources of reliable solar panels at reasonable cost.
This has "FAIL" written all over it. But so does most California public sector entities. Good wine though. But that's private sector. And I could just see government imposing new taxes on the wineries because they are using more than their fair share of sunlight to grow their grapes.

[LottaKash]

SOLAR PANELS WORK!!!. Solyndra did not go bankrupt because solar panels don't produce electricity. .

No, they went bankrupt because they were corrupt.....As in "thieves"...

[LottaKash]

I am a realist. If this thing ever gets built, which I doubt, it would take years before construction was even approved to start, and the costs would skyrocket. Even without the regulatory problems, the cost estimates in a business plan like that are just made up with no basis in reality.



It's California. There are bureaucrats out there that live for the opportunity to screw things up.

Just like the Oakland Bay Bridge, the new one, that is "still" being built after ten years.....With the cost skyrocketing from the original $ 1.6 Billions to now over $ 6.5 BILLIONS....That's CA alright....

[Mike at A+]

No, they went bankrupt because they were corrupt.....As in "thieves"...
And they were big 0bama campaign contributors so they were allowed to get away with theft. That's the Chicago way.

[LottaKash]

And they were big 0bama campaign contributors so they were allowed to get away with theft. That's the Chicago way.

And wasn't it so convenient and so timely that Nancy Pelosi's brother in law became a vice president of some sort just before they went "bankrupt"...:D

[Mike at A+]

And wasn't it so convenient and so timely that Nancy Pelosi's brother in law became a vice president of some sort just before they went "bankrupt"...:D
Yep, the dots are all there but liberals just can't seem to connect them.

[Clocker]

Not these things and not on medians. One thing on mostly one median. I'm sure you didn't, but did look at Google maps to see what the median was like on I-5 in California. For the most part it is sixty feet wide. The proposed tube system would be less than twenty feet wide and that would be elevated twenty feet or higher. At ground level it would be considerably narrower.

The median is the center strip of a divided highway. The outer edges are called the shoulders. The project could not be built on the shoulders because of on and off ramps and bridge abutments. A tube twenty feet high could not be built down the median because of overpasses.

In addition, no highway department would allow anything to be built on the shoulder or the median for safety reasons. The shoulders are designed for cars to pull over in case of emergency and for police and fire access if needed. The median also serves as a safety feature, for emergency cross-over and as an escape route of last resort for vehicles in the left lane. One of the reasons that medians are mowed regularly is so that anyone needing to drive into one in an emergency can see that the ground is clear. If the right lane is crowded and the semi in the left lane ahead of you slams on his brakes, the last thing in the world you want to see is a line of high-speed transport pylons in the median. Pylons along the shoulder would be equally dangerous.

[HUSKER55]

I think it would be a good deal. I would think a high speed monorail would be nice. Unfortunately, I don't see either happening because our government can screw up a soup sandwich.

[iceknight]

Traffic on the I-5 would be far less once high speed mass transit is in place.
2. Read the paper, there will gradients for overapasses etc. 20 ft is not set in stone.

3.The median, exclusive of a 3-4 ft wide shoulder is still roughly 40 ft wide in many parts of the I-5 (source: google maps, zoomed in, check with scale feature).

4. Next question, and some questions can be stupid - which i will not bother to answer.

5. My views on several topics could be classified as "right wing" /"conservative" but that does not mean that good thermodynamics will be disowned by me. When a system shows a substantially lower energy consumption on a per passenger/per mile basis, I am not going to be shouting "damn liberals" just because the idea is proposed out of California.

Grow up. oh wait, most posters on this board are stodgy old liberals or stodgy old conservatives, who have no desire to be flexible or learn anything new - be it on science or be it on handicapping methods. God forbid some people learning about Timform US and time adjustments, I still cannot believe that a new product actually gets a positive response on this board.

[iceknight]

I think it would be a good deal. I would think a high speed monorail would be nice. Unfortunately, I don't see either happening because our government can screw up a soup sandwich. Never heard of that, stick a soup between two slices of bread?

[highnote]

A tube twenty feet high could not be built down the median because of overpasses.

There are lots of hurdles to overcome. If the idea is feasible, overpasses will be one the easier hurdles to overcome.

I can think of a few ways:

1.) rebuild the underpasses under the highway.

2.) raise the underpasses over the top of the tube.

3.) build the tubes higher than the overpasses.

There are probably other ways far more clever and obvious than the ones I thought of.

[hcap]

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/transportation/2013/08/elon_musk_s_hyperloop_a_realistic_alternative_to_h igh_speed_rail.html

More details

[Mike at A+]

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/transportation/2013/08/elon_musk_s_hyperloop_a_realistic_alternative_to_h igh_speed_rail.html

More details
From the article ... Predicting that the final construction costs will top $100 billion, Musk likened the line to "California's Amtrak" and suggested it would burden the state's taxpayers for generations. "That just doesn't seem wise for a state that was facing bankruptcy not that long ago."

"So, what should Musk call his new company?"

My suggestion, name it after Pelosi: AIRHEAD INC.

[hcap]

From the article ... Predicting that the final construction costs will top $100 billion, Musk likened the line to "California's Amtrak" and suggested it would burden the state's taxpayers for generations. "That just doesn't seem wise for a state that was facing bankruptcy not that long ago."

"So, what should Musk call his new company?"

My suggestion, name it after Pelosi: AIRHEAD INC.You misread the article.

No doubt this is all easier said than done, and I have a feeling some of the obstacles would be greater than Musk is letting on. When I pressed him on how the Hyperloop would deal with the twistiest and most mountainous portions of the route, he acknowledged that one might need to blast a few “short” tunnels. But he still thinks it will be far easier than high-speed rail. Predicting that the final construction costs will top $100 billion, Musk likened the line to "California's Amtrak" and suggested it would burden the state's taxpayers for generations. "That just doesn't seem wise for a state that was facing bankruptcy not that long ago."
Why do I suspect you have a prejudiced "supply sided" dog in this fight? :lol: :cool:

[Mike at A+]

I QUOTED the article. And I suspect that $100 billion would be cheap compared to the final cost of HIS project. But hey, it's California. What could go wrong?

[hcap]

I QUOTED the article. And I suspect that $100 billion would be cheap compared to the final cost of HIS project. But hey, it's California. What could go wrong?Fess up bro'. You quoited the article out of context!

What can go wrong"

More people like you voting in California with your reading comprehension skills
:sleeping:

[Mike at A+]

Fess up bro'. You quoited the article out of context!

What can go wrong"

More people like you voting in California with your reading comprehension skills
:sleeping:
Time will tell. My money says this "project" is just another in a long line of California screw ups. Instead of nitpicking about what I "quoited", admit that this is going nowhere fast. Oh, and the people who vote in California can't be very intelligent to have elected "Air" Pelosi and Governor "Moonbeam".

[hcap]

You are a waste. Bye bye.

[Mike at A+]

And you are waste matter.

[HUSKER55]

ICEKNIGHT


the correct answer is

COLD SOUP :D