MATCH PLAY CHATTER

[Jay Trotter]

CONTEST 6

2ND ANNUAL
http://www.surebetracingnews.com/Advance/Idabet-button.jpg (https://www.idabet.com/)https://bet.idabet.com/assets/201306201241/ctx/images/ebet_logo.png
MATCH PLAY CHAMPIONSHIP

***

THIS THREAD IS FOR DISCUSSION
ON ANYTHING RELATED TO THE CONTEST

***

[iceknight]

Is this where I ask a question on contest rules?

"(Should you do so, remember that the timestamp of the "edited" post must also be at least one minute before your first contest race goes off.)"

Would the time in the Equibase Chart (that gets generated an hour or two after the race) be used to confirm the "race goes off" time. In other contests, I think the DRF Entry's post time - 1min was used as the cut off limit. This seems to be slightly different, so just spelling it out for clarification...

[cj]

Is this where I ask a question on contest rules?

"(Should you do so, remember that the timestamp of the "edited" post must also be at least one minute before your first contest race goes off.)"

Would the time in the Equibase Chart (that gets generated an hour or two after the race) be used to confirm the "race goes off" time. In other contests, I think the DRF Entry's post time - 1min was used as the cut off limit. This seems to be slightly different, so just spelling it out for clarification...

Almost sure the official "off time" from Equibase is used, and always has been. There was one contest (AsD Parlay) where the scheduled time was used for the order in which scores were calculated, but never for the posting deadline.

[planks46d]

-- VERY IMPORTANT NOTE: Only races with free Brisnet Past Performances can be chosen as contest races. The track/race selector must personally verify that subject race PPs are available on http://www.trks2day.com/trks2day.html.

I didn't see any free PPs there. Free picks maybe but can't find the free PPs. Any help would be appreciated. :confused:

[Track Collector]

I didn't see any free PPs there. Free picks maybe but can't find the free PPs. Any help would be appreciated. :confused:

It is a bit cumbersome, but here is what you need to do.

--- Click on the link, then scroll down close to the bottom.
--- On the far left-hand side, you will see a list of tracks. Immediately to the right of those tracks you will find race numbers (like P01, T05, etc.). Click on one of them, then look at the list to find the track and race number. On the same area as the track and race number, you will find a link "ultimate PPs". When looking at the track and race number, be sure it is for the correct date you want.


Chris

[LAP_520]

It is a bit cumbersome, but here is what you need to do.

--- Click on the link, then scroll down close to the bottom.
--- On the far left-hand side, you will see a list of tracks. Immediately to the right of those tracks you will find race numbers (like P01, T05, etc.). Click on one of them, then look at the list to find the track and race number. On the same area as the track and race number, you will find a link "ultimate PPs". When looking at the track and race number, be sure it is for the correct date you want.


Chris


I would like to add .. if I so may:

Please follow thru on this to actually view the ultimate pps to MAKE sure the pps for the date and track and race are there.

I tested Finger Lakes Race 4 for 9/5/2013. Race 4 is shown on page 1 as D4......however, clicking on it .. and it goes to page 2... there is NO Thursday September 5, 2013 date header and thus there is NO Finger Lakes Race 4 being listed.

[planks46d]

Thanks Guys !!!

It will make my head spin trying to find a PP for a particular track, day and date on that site. :faint:

I have just 1 more question. I don't need those PPs myself. If a NA track is running on a particular day, can I assume that there will be free PPs on that site? Provided of course there are PPs to be had at Bris, DRF, or Equibase. I do understand tbred races only. It sure would make things a whole lot easier for me and probably others.

Thanks again

[TBred17Roan]

From the movie Princess Bride

"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

Hear that Red Knave......we're gunning for you this year. You got the father and son last year but watch out for grampa Chackiee in 2013! Game...Set...Match On <grin>.

And good luck to all in the final contest.

[Red Knave]

From the movie Princess Bride

"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

Hear that Red Knave......we're gunning for you this year. You got the father and son last year but watch out for grampa Chackiee in 2013! Game...Set...Match On <grin>.

And good luck to all in the final contest.
Man, there must be some kinda rule against posts like this!

Well, you can see for yourself that the guys that finishes 1, 2 in the HoY last year are scraping barnacles off the PA contest boat this year

BUT ...

If you and any of your so called famiglia are in my sights this year, best to duck and run for cover! Capisce?

:p

[Track Collector]

Thanks Guys !!!

It will make my head spin trying to find a PP for a particular track, day and date on that site. :faint:

I have just 1 more question. I don't need those PPs myself. If a NA track is running on a particular day, can I assume that there will be free PPs on that site? Provided of course there are PPs to be had at Bris, DRF, or Equibase. I do understand tbred races only. It sure would make things a whole lot easier for me and probably others.

Thanks again

Hello planks46d,

Never assume anything when it comes to this free PP site. I'm not sure what their criteria is but I think it is based on the running offspring of various sires.

Unfortunately, it is the only site we are aware of that offers some type of free PPs, which we currently require so that folks do not have to go out and purchase PPs if they don't want to.


Chris

[planks46d]

Thanks TC

[CSR]

I'm way down the list in points, but signed up anyway in case there are no-shows. When does the sign up close so I can see if I am in or not?

Edit: I now see 9/16 as the cut off. Where is the sign up thread? I already voted in the poll.

[Jay Trotter]

I'm way down the list in points, but signed up anyway in case there are no-shows. When does the sign up close so I can see if I am in or not?

Edit: I now see 9/16 as the cut off. Where is the sign up thread? I already voted in the poll.The poll is the sign-up thread. If you've signed in you'll be considered as an alternate.

[wiffleball whizz]

Am I in the marvelous field of 64?

Praying to the gods if I am I don't draw cj or the red hot horses4courses!!

[TheEdge07]

Am I in the marvelous field of 64?

Praying to the gods if I am I don't draw cj or the red hot horses4courses!!

Field of 64 wiff are you consider a cinderella?

[Jay Trotter]

Attached you find a blank copy of the Match Play Bracket set-up. Players will be slotted in based on their standings and who has registered to play.

[Ted Craven]

Looks like I have the distinct honour of rank 64 out of 64 - hope springs eternal :jump:

I do have a question about Rule #7 re Scratches, which I recall caused me and I think others some concern last year:


7. SCRATCHES
-- Due to the restrictions imposed on the posting of selections, scratches will be refunded, and ROI calculations will be adjusted accordingly.



Players who tend to have more scratches among their selections (e.g. because they must post BEFORE Scratches are announced) are playing on a somewhat different field than those who prefer to or are able to wait until AFTER Scratches are posted.

Last year, in some of my and others' daily games, the outcome was decided because one side ended up betting less than $100 for the day while winning the same races as their opponent - or combinations of that - because of scratches.

I agree that sometimes it works out otherwise, but I think I was not the only one to find that disconcerting after a successful day of selections and betting. I have not completely thought through a useful alternative treatment of scratches, but if there is any possibility of modifying the rules at this point, here is a thought: If the outcome (i.e. the ROI) of any daily game would be decided solely because of one player's scratched selections and the refunds issued (i.e. reducing the amount bet below $100), then the favourite should be substituted for the scratched horse(s) and all the money bet on them - for both players.
This treatment of scratches where the day's outcome was decided, puts both players on an equal footing.

Thoughts, critique? Thanks for listening.

cheers,

Ted

[Jay Trotter]

Looks like I have the distinct honour of rank 64 out of 64 - hope springs eternal :jump:
TedTed, you are Ranked 64th and automatically in. You're actual ranking will likely be higher as not all qualifiers are likely to play which would move you up somewhat.

As far as questions about the rules I'll leave that to Track Collector to address.

Trotter:ThmbUp:

[Track Collector]

Looks like I have the distinct honour of rank 64 out of 64 - hope springs eternal :jump:

I do have a question about Rule #7 re Scratches, which I recall caused me and I think others some concern last year:


Players who tend to have more scratches among their selections (e.g. because they must post BEFORE Scratches are announced) are playing on a somewhat different field than those who prefer to or are able to wait until AFTER Scratches are posted.

Last year, in some of my and others' daily games, the outcome was decided because one side ended up betting less than $100 for the day while winning the same races as their opponent - or combinations of that - because of scratches.

I agree that sometimes it works out otherwise, but I think I was not the only one to find that disconcerting after a successful day of selections and betting. I have not completely thought through a useful alternative treatment of scratches, but if there is any possibility of modifying the rules at this point, here is a thought: If the outcome (i.e. the ROI) of any daily game would be decided solely because of one player's scratched selections and the refunds issued (i.e. reducing the amount bet below $100), then the favourite should be substituted for the scratched horse(s) and all the money bet on them - for both players.
This treatment of scratches where the day's outcome was decided, puts both players on an equal footing.

Thoughts, critique? Thanks for listening.

cheers,

Ted

Hi Ted,

I understand your concern. Your suggestion sounds like a reasonable one, but the devil is in the details. This contest allows a significant range of wager types, which adds to the complexity. So I offer the following example:

Original Play --> $2 Trifecta key 2 with 1,4,5 with 1,3,4,5,7 (Cost = $24)
The #1 gets scratched, and the #4 is the betting favorite

Under the favorite replacement scenario, the ticket becomes:
$2 Trifecta key 2 with 4,4,5 with 3,4,4,5,7

To make it easier to see the combinations, I'll show it differently:
$2 Trifecta key 2 with 4,a,5 with 3,4,a,5,7 but knowing the 4 and the a are the same.
The combinations become:

2,4,3
2,4,a (not a legal combination)
2,4,5
2,4,7

2,a,3
2,a,4 (not a legal combination)
2,a,5
2,a,7

2,5,3
2,5,4
2,5,a (this is a legal combination, which means having 2,5,4 combination twice)
2,5,7

Total cost of this ticket is $20 after eliminating the illegal combinations.


There are cases where the favorite replacement would be very easy, and others which would be much more complicated than the example above. Will the players be able to score them correctly and consistently on their own? Also bear in mind that in some situations the player may want to exclude the favorite in their selections, so you would be forcing him/her to take the favorite. One option would be to allow the player to decide on a race-by-race basis (in advance of course) when they would accept the favorite as a replacement for scratches. This option then in turn adds more complexity in the posting process and can lead to more disputes.

Also on the negative side is that more than 40+ players have already acknowledged the rules, and introducing a major change like this one after they have already done so seems like a recipe for trouble.

The ROI is a ratio of the returns and the amount wagered, which means that a player incurring scratches can be helped as well as hurt.

Perhaps in the future a better way can be worked out. For now, we are clearly not at that point, and as such, we need to go forward with the current contest rules for this year.


Chris

[Ted Craven]

Chris,

I accept your reasoning that it is now too late to actually change existing rules. Hopefully for next year. And I also accept the 'devilish details' example you provided.

The particularly concerning outcome would be one where a player could lose a game (and match and the contest) yet still have an equal or higher payout for the day than his opponent (because his opponent bet less and ends up with a higher ROI, due to scratches).

Ted

[iceknight]

Almost sure the official "off time" from Equibase is used, and always has been. There was one contest (AsD Parlay) where the scheduled time was used for the order in which scores were calculated, but never for the posting deadline. Thanks cj.

Anyhow, I am 152nd on the list of PACS points... so let us see if I make into the 64 :lol:

[Track Collector]

Hello everyone,

If you have not heard from you opponent, in addition to sending him/her a private message, you should also try to contact them via e-mail as well (if they are set up for that option), as some folks check their e-mail regularly but maybe only periodically log on to the PaceAdvantage Website.

Remember too that in the event your opponent does not show up for a game, you will still need to post YOUR selections in order to receive credit for a forfeited game. Otherwise, the game will be scored a double loss.

Finally, if a player misses game 1, they can get back into the contest with game 2.


Chris


...

[pat5336]

I email and PM buffaloxp

[Aner]

Moderators will only get involved to resolve disputes and/or help with scoring questions when requested to do so by one of the players.



This question has nothing to do with a controversy. I was trashed soundly today. I wasn't paying attention and posted a $24 superfecta in today's race #2 at Belmont which had no super. I think the rule that applies is:

-- Should a player wager LESS than $100 in a given race, $100 will still be used for the purpose of calculating ROIs.

But it could be treated like a scratch. After all, if you had tried to bet this super at the track it would be refused - the same as if you tried to bet a scratched horse. See this rule.


-- Due to the restrictions imposed on the posting of selections, scratches will be refunded, and ROI calculations will be adjusted accordingly.


So how is it calculated? Refund or tough luck?

[Track Collector]

Moderators will only get involved to resolve disputes and/or help with scoring questions when requested to do so by one of the players.



This question has nothing to do with a controversy. I was trashed soundly today. I wasn't paying attention and posted a $24 superfecta in today's race #2 at Belmont which had no super. I think the rule that applies is:

-- Should a player wager LESS than $100 in a given race, $100 will still be used for the purpose of calculating ROIs.

But it could be treated like a scratch. After all, if you had tried to bet this super at the track it would be refused - the same as if you tried to bet a scratched horse. See this rule.


-- Due to the restrictions imposed on the posting of selections, scratches will be refunded, and ROI calculations will be adjusted accordingly.


So how is it calculated? Refund or tough luck?

Although many times we will never know all the info needed to make a "correct and fair" decision, in general it comes down to was it something beyond the player's control, or was it a mistake on the player's part.

For example, if the player made a superfecta selection in the 7th race at Belmont, and Belmont did not offer a superfecta in the race regardless of the field size, then it is "tough luck". If the player made their selections at 8:00 a.m. in the morning and scratches were announced at noon which reduced the field size to a point where Belmont had to cancel the superfecta in the race, I would tend to believe that it should be treated as a scratch.

One should give the player the benefit of the doubt (treat is as a refund) when there is not enough evidence to suggest otherwise.


Chris

[PaceAdvantage]

OK, so somebody pointed out something about cancellations and needing an official ruling. If anybody needs my input, I'll need to be briefed on what is going on...I've been too busy handicapping in this contest and haven't paid attention.

Links to pertinent posts would suffice...

[tiger rose]

want to see definition of unsportmanship

check out fridays thread posts 171 thru 176
thats the beef i guess

cause other players that played there counted it as a game

[Track Collector]

Can we please get an official statement from the contest admins as to the rules that are in play if there are further cancellations at any tracks? There was obviously a ruling made in this type of situation already and it needs to be spelled out. -- From FunkyMonkey in another thread.

No specify contest rules address cancellations, so with the involved cancellation at LaD (after only 1 contest race) I made an on-the-fly decision to void the results (based on only one race) and have the players do a make-up game. I gave the players the option to do it on either Saturday or Sunday, and let them know of my decision via private message.

I would plan to have any future cancellations dealt with in a similar way.

If the contest is offered again in another year, I would suspect the rules could be improved to specify how cancellations will be handled. :)


Chris

[FunkyMonkey]

Can we please get an official statement from the contest admins as to the rules that are in play if there are further cancellations at any tracks? There was obviously a ruling made in this type of situation already and it needs to be spelled out. -- From FunkyMonkey in another thread.

No specify contest rules address cancellations, so with the involved cancellation at LaD (after only 1 contest race) I made an on-the-fly decision to void the results (based on only one race) and have the players do a make-up game. I gave the players the option to do it on either Saturday or Sunday, and let them know of my decision via private message.

I would plan to have any future cancellations dealt with in a similar way.

If the contest is offered again in another year, I would suspect the rules could be improved to specify how cancellations will be handled. :)


Chris

Chris,
thanks for this. however, it is still ambiguous. do all five races need to be completed to be considered official? What about if 3 of 5 races are completed before a track cancels? Is that considered okay since 60% of races for the day will have been completed before the cancellation? Just want to be sure we avoid any potential hard feelings if it happens again. thanks, again.

[PaceAdvantage]

I would have ruled that there would be no makeups. This thing runs five days. That's plenty of time in my opinion, even with a lost day or lost race(s).

I just don't see the need for makeup races.

[mudcat]

I agree, use overall tie breaker if any track cancels if there is a 2-2 tie if there is 4 games played

[Track Collector]

It would seem that one or more of the moderators have been closing out earlier threads for games which have a already been played, especially after a few days have passed.

While I appreciate your efforts, I deliberately left them open as even to date, the results for one or more games is still unknown to me. Specifically, under the game 2,3, and 4 threads, neither player (mudcat or HuggingTheRail have posted any of the game results.

There are still a number of game 4 results not yet reported as well.


Chris


...

[PaceAdvantage]

I for one haven't closed a single thread in this contest section...so it wasn't me...lol

[cj]

I haven't closed a thread yet either.

[Jay Trotter]

Me three! I'm not closing threads.

[Red Knave]

It would seem that one or more of the moderators have been closing out earlier threads for games which have a already been played, especially after a few days have passed.

You probably have your display options set to "2 days". Change it to "Last Month" or something.

[Track Collector]

Thanks for the suggestion Red Knave (Bob), but that does not seem to be the case.

Maybe I am going crazy and can not remember what I am doing? :bang:


Chris

[LAP_520]

Lets all help the Contest administrator in Round 2 and going forward by posting results of your contested games as such. …( Actual player names have been omitted to protect the innocent.)



Name vs Name posted in the header ( optional) or top of the text body.



Round _#____ Game _#_____

Track and Races played



Player name ( post where picks were posted )

Total wagered $500.00

Less Scratches -$ aa.aa

Total Winnings $ bbbb.bb

ROI $ c.ccc ( total winnings divided by NET wagering $ )







The opponent’s (post # where picks are)

Total Wagered $500.00

Scratches - $ aa.aa

Total Winnings $bb.bb

ROI $ c.cc



Score : Player name _____ The opponent ________-





I am sure the Contest administrator would be very thankful and please.



Thank You.

Good Luck to everybody that has advanced to Round 2 !!

[parshooter]

This is a fun format. How about a consolation bracket for round one losers?
Thoughts?

[Aner]

There is nothing you can do when your horse scratches during the post parade, but it appears some contestants may be unaware of early scratches. At least one hour before post time tracks list the horses they know will not run today. This can be found at the host track's website or on Equibase (today's races, scratches).

It would be beneficial to wait until these early scratches are known before posting your picks. It must be frustrating to find one of your key horses won't run and you may have little action left in the race, and it would allay the fears of your opponent who thinks you purposely chose a known scratch to limit your exposure to risk.

I realize sometimes one must post before the early scratches are known. This is for those that may not know how to find where they are published.

[TBred17Roan]

I wish all of my opponents horses scratched. Especially the two double digit winners <grin>. The door does swing both ways.

[mrhorseplayer]

There is nothing you can do when your horse scratches during the post parade, but it appears some contestants may be unaware of early scratches. At least one hour before post time tracks list the horses they know will not run today. This can be found at the host track's website or on Equibase (today's races, scratches).

It would be beneficial to wait until these early scratches are known before posting your picks. It must be frustrating to find one of your key horses won't run and you may have little action left in the race, and it would allay the fears of your opponent who thinks you purposely chose a known scratch to limit your exposure to risk.

I realize sometimes one must post before the early scratches are known. This is for those that may not know how to find where they are published.


I am a transporter, have to post my picks anytime I can, sometimes so early do not know the track condition. like round 1 took boat from near miami fl to near sacramento ca. now in route taking boat from apple valley ca to oroville wa . not much time when I drive 12 hours a day

[spicytomato]

I must say

I hadnt posted in threads in a while
due to the feisty nature of some
can get really hot natured

with that said

I have to say..
the contest people have been stellar to work with

well done everyone ;)

[tiger rose]

when i picked woodbine races 2-3-4-6-7 they were all on the brisnet page.


just got back in after i checked for scratches, went to cap races race 6 isn't listed today.

hope i don't get penalized ? ?

[tiger rose]

tiger rose v bitter = 1-1

* please note that i only played one race today, and tiger rose had $100 in scratch selections

since it was so important that he mentioned my scratches the previous match i thought it was only appropriate i note his

The only reason i mentioned yours because the scratches were listed by 4:28 pm and you posted at 6:11 pm

and i did pm you saying i had to post early yesterday due to an appt.

[Track Collector]

when i picked woodbine races 2-3-4-6-7 they were all on the brisnet page.


just got back in after i checked for scratches, went to cap races race 6 isn't listed today.

hope i don't get penalized ? ?

When you originally checked, did you just look at the summary page which shows ALL the different tracks and races? You actually have to click on EACH race to see that it is there. I know it is a pain, but Whobet seems to have this problem on a regular basis (of showing the race on the summary page, but then not having the race there when you click on it.).

[FunkyMonkey]

my money is on a Canadian taking this contest down...a couple, I've noticed, have already advanced...taking down their series 3-0...keep it up Earl and Rob...hope you don't have to face each other until the finals...and, I hope I haven't jinxed either of you.

[tomack59]

I have a suggestion for next year's rulesfor races being canceled after play is started. If any of the players have already won money in any races played, say three races have been run out of five for the day and one players accumulated $200 and the other player accumulated zero or $100, that the makeup races for the next day should only be two,because both players have already played three races and if you start over from scratch your penalizing the person that's already picked one winner. Two winners or whatever it took for them to get $200. Also the pick for the next day races should be at the same track, provided it's opened, and picked by the same person. If nobody has picked any winners then start over with five plays the next day would seem fair. This is just an idea, like to hear some comments on it, especially from the moderators. Thank you


Tom K

[LAP_520]

10/23/2013 KEENELAND Race 6 declared a NO CONTEST...

here is the link why....

http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20131023/SPORTS08/310230124/Jockey-Calvin-Borel-involved-serious-spill-Keeneland

[LAP_520]

Congratulations joemc44 on winning the Ida Bet Match Play Championship!



Congratulations Immanuel Kant on a great battle and finishing 2nd in a very tough field!


And Congratulations go out to maclr11 and spicytomato also with their placements in the top 4 of this Ida Bet Match Play

Well Done cappers !
:ThmbUp::ThmbUp: