Ruining a Claimer

[OTM Al]

There was a mid-low (16000-25000 range) level claimer running the New York circuit this summer that I always loved to see show up named A. P. Aspen. His last 7 starts over the 3 tracks he never finished below 3rd (though he did get DQ'd down to 4th once). Very often he seemed to show up in the last race of the day, which was always nice when considering a superfecta. He got claimed in late November and was shipped off to Philadelphia Park under trainer Faustino Ramos. I'm not sure what happened to him in December, but I do know he's finished dead last in his last 2 with low end tags. This really stinks. I keep track of Philadelphia for horses coming out, but will not bet there as it seems to me that many horses there get way over worked and driven into the ground. Just felt the need to rant on the subject as I just saw his name on Saturday's charts and it made me miss the guy. Am I unjustly blaming this guy or do any of you know more about him than I do, which is basically nothing.

[Binder]

Hi OTM Al

I will check some of my stats see if I can help
I get right back to you

[Binder]

I will (sorry)

[Binder]

Hi
Things are not looking good for A.P.Aspen
As you may know He was claimed 92 days ago for $13000
by Faustin Ramos They didn't run till 15 days ago They dropped him to
$7500 NW2 in the last 6 months. The same class race as he ran Saturday
In the race he was claimed, Trackmaster PP's gave him a 74 speed rating
He finished 2nd beaten by 8 lengths. The comment line was vied, help place
The vaildator program I use rated his running style as E/P. His total energy #
for the race was 159.51 which is a very low number. If you don't know
Total Energy is a Sartin Methodology number that measures the class of the horse
Is odd that A.P. Aspen ran second in a 12-13m claimer with such a low Total Energy
number Maybe the race was not very strong?
In his last race-His first for his new trainer @ 8.5 furlongs he ran dead last as the fav.
With an SR of 56. His comment line was Prompted pace Tired
Validator rated his line for this race as Ear His Total energy for this race was 155.8
This is down near the $4000 NW2 Lifers at Pha. So this is a hurt horse
I entered all of his pacelines into Validator Then hid down to his best 5 races
In his top 5 races His SR were and Total Energy numbers
85 161.3
88 163.2
81 161.7
80 161.3
73 161.4
so He is nowhere near the horse he once was

I did this race form Saturday it was race #4
This is the order of finish for the race with the Total Energy of the horse from the paceline I entered and his going off odds

# 8 163.6 2.90
#1 162.8 5.80
# 2 158.4 4.90
# 7 160.2 32.20
# 6 162.6 3.60
# 5 160.5 7.20
# 4 161.1 46.30
# 3 161.4 3.00

So considering his Total Energy # for the race he finished 2nd in was 159.5
and he ran to a 161.4 3 races ago it seems the trainer placed him were he looked like
he was comperable but his Total energy #'s are dropping badly They will have to keep dropping him down to about $4000 -5000 at pha unless he recovers
One last note In all his good races except the race that he ran the 80 SR
He ran very close to the center line on the E/L graph. This is perfect for this level of route races at PHA. He ran way to early in race 4, Whee he got the 80 SR but held on to finish 2nd

Hope this helps you
I will watch him too. Hope he can come back and have a happy home in PHA
Bind

[yak merchant]

Or he's fine, and they are setting him up for a price. Probably not with the 2nd last out, but that's funny if the trainer was trying to get another last place, and the field was so bad he got second. I wouldn't be surprised to see one more bad race, and then a monster. Time will tell.

[kenwoodallpromos]

So if the horse really could have won 3 in a row how much are they losing in purses to set up a "monster"?

[Binder]

Hi kenwoodallpromos



The two PHA races had the same conditions
NW2 races since 6 months Claim Price $7500

Purse Value = $9500
winner gets $5700

down to like $225 for 5th place

Horse has finished last both races
So I still say look for this guy in $4000 or $5000
NWers

[OTM Al]

Thanks for all the research. Can buy that he was in a bad field in the last before the claim, but then it would be pretty odd if he was in such weak fields the previous six races as well. Does make me think either he doesn't like his new home that well or he is hurting, which is a shame. Maybe a few months off and go back out in the summer will help him a bit.

[Binder]

A.P. Aspen Is entered this Saturday 3/13
Race 10 One mile and one sixteenth
Purse $7500 Claiming Price $4000
4YO+ NW2races since in 6 months

No reported workouts since his last race

[OTM Al]

I really dislike what goes on at tracks like Philadelphia. I know they are cheap claimers and they have to run a lot to be able to pay the bills, but they are putting the horses into the ground there this year. Can't remember where I read the article, but they have had an inordinant number of breakdowns this year so far and it was being investigated. Saw just a day or two ago Fact Not Fiction, another NYRA fixture in lower claiming races broke down on the lead. I love this sport but I am well aware it has its cruel side for the lesser of the breed. I wish there was a good answer for all this. I just refuse to ever bet a track like Philadelphia.

[ranchwest]

I have no direct knowledge about A.P. Aspen, but here's some general information about claiming....

The most common reason for claiming a horse is the belief that the new trainer can improve the horse. This implies that the current care level of that particular horse is believed to be below par in some way.

Trainers seldom give away horses by running them at a claiming level at which they could frequently win.

Maybe you've noticed that horses are often claimed out of races in which they've performed below the public's expectations.

Top trainers will either bring a horse back for a dramatic improvement or find that they have to lay the horse off for an extended period because they weren't able to accomplish the quick fix they'd antiicpated.

Some trainers who are not good at claiming will just keep running the horse and the SRs will go down and stay there.

It is not prudent to use one horse as an example of how a trainer has ruined a horse. The horse may have already been ruined.

[OTM Al]

I'm very well aware of how it all works and you are right, a single example is no example. It just struck me as odd that a horse could have 7 consecutive money finishes at a higher claim price at a better track, be claimed, and then proceed to finish dead last twice in a row at a much lower tag against what should be (but I don't have enough figures for comparison on class comparisons between Pha and the NYRA tracks) lesser competition. Admittedly, he was a horse I always enjoyed seeing run because I knew he was very reliable to finish underneath on the exotics. I appreciated him very much for that, so there is a bit of personal feeling here. He may well have been used up by the last race he ran at Aqueduct. He was given nearly 3 months off, which may be a sign of that. He's running back again Saturday. I just hope he doesn't end up dead for the effort is all.

[ranchwest]

A.P. Aspen has actually been claimed twice. Bazeos claimed the horse for 16, then moved him up to 20 and he ran 3rd. The horse was then dropped to 12.5 and ran 2nd and Ramos claimed him out of that race.

I suspect that had the horse been sound that Bazeos would not have dropped him below the level at which he claimed him after he ran ITM at a higher level.

[OTM Al]

Soundness is always the question in a claimer to be sure. Really my only point here was to get some info about the trainer, Ramos, as I was not familiar with him. I certainly never meant to accuse him of bad practices. I just had a liking for the horse and wondered if any one out there had a perspective on what was going on. I do stand by my feelings abou Pha. I know full and well its the nature of the game, but I will stand by my right to place my bets where I wish. I know a lot of people have issues with the Magna tracks and won't bet them and that's cool with me too. I think it's a messed up situation, but I'll bet those tracks. I just don't feel comfortable playing Pha. is all and when I saw a personal favorite go into a big decline when he went there it upset me. It's entirely likely that he was burned up before he left Zito and just hit a couple soft fields as it was pointed out his last at Aqu probably was. I hope he creams the field Saturday, but my money will be elsewhere.

[ranchwest]

My database is not complete, but I have Ramos with 13 starts at first or second off the claim with only one win.

This would suggest that it isn't surprising that Ramos has not improved the horse, but with Bazeos dropping the horse after an ITM finish, I think the horse was probably already on the decline. Sometimes horses run relatively well in spite of health problems and then later are unable to run well at all.

It is amazing the condition of some horses. I recently saw a horse going off as a favorite at BEU that was stepping on the side of his hoof with each step in the mud after his warmup. He was never in contention in the race and finished far back as the favorite. IMHO, the horse should not have been running at all.

[kenwoodallpromos]

I see (rarely) some consistent winners claimed just about every race, like each trainer figures at least That horse will give a win!! / Phila-bLooks like an off track last week, and groomed faster than normal this week. Just guessing, but maybe the horses have no idea whether to expect a hard surface or mud and unsure footing!!

[ranchwest]

Originally posted by kenwoodallpromos
I see (rarely) some consistent winners claimed just about every race, like each trainer figures at least That horse will give a win!! / Phila-bLooks like an off track last week, and groomed faster than normal this week. Just guessing, but maybe the horses have no idea whether to expect a hard surface or mud and unsure footing!!

I don't understand your statement. Rarely and just about every race? Could you clarify?

[Binder]

Dear OTM Al

I respect your opinion about some of the trainers methods
At tracks like Pha. I know I sound naive. I just have to think that they would not
run A.P.Aspen if he was not sound. In a perfect world A.P.Aspen will win
today and earn his $4500 from the $7500 purse, Maybe he will get claimed and be worked back to the horse he was at NY
All I can do is trust my readouts from Val 2 I just wonder what else can Mr. Ramos do ? He paid $13000 for the horse, laid it off. Then ran him at $7500 twice and got last place each
Time. I predicted he would go down to $4000 on an earlier post
He dropped A.P.Aspen almost as low as he could. The only thing lower is NW1in 6 months $4000 Today is NW2in 6months

If you can, Please check out a video I made of my Val 2 readouts. Its on my web page
www.Bindfold.com its called A.P,.Aspen1 and you can see he has a good chance today
I used his paceline from the race he ran 2nd in and You can see he ran comparable to these horses in today's race

I'm off to watch the race down at Meadowlands
Good skill A.P.

Thanks
Binder

[ranchwest]

A.P. Aspen finished 6th in a field of 12. He was up close early, but faded. He may have been used up by the winner. I'd say he might have a chance at the 4k level, but not with my money.

[Binder]

No victory artichoke tonite

Very sad
A.P. Aspen battled with the eventual
winner for the first two calls But then faded to finish sixth
The winner was the number 5 horse who went of a 9/2
AP.Aspen was 3/1 till the # 7 took a lot of money late
He went off at 4/1. If you got a chance to watch my video You can see The #5 was the #1 early horse .But he showed nothing else and was a hide.
I bet A.P,Aspen and the #4 horse plus I had the seven in a pick 3
Things looked good for A.P.Aspen early and the seven made a great move on the rail but the rail was dead all day so the Five was gone
I hope they give A.P.Aspen a rest now. and bring him back fresh for another shot at these guys

It was a sad day at PHA

"tommorrow tommorrow I'll love you tommorrow"

[kenwoodallpromos]

On rare occasion I see PP's of a horse who seems to be claimed almost every past race the horse is run; Those horses seem to be claimed by a lot of different trainers in the horse's career, maybe to get the owner a horse who can get in the money or to try to grab an easy win! Those horses seem lke they run consistently whether the current trainer does a good job or not!

[Macdiarmadillo]

The attraction is the consistency of the horse. It's properly placed so it can get purse money. So he's cheap enough to be worth claiming by the next guy. Nothing like quick turnover.

Part of the pattern also seems to be a chain of trainers who specialize in claiming and are always looking to claim something.

[OTM Al]

That's the sort of thing that worries me about these lower level tracks with cheap claiming races. The horses at that level must run a lot to pay the bills. There's no way around that really. The problem is that the track vets are letting these horses go when it may well be clear something is wrong with the horses. That is criminal in my book. The rash of breakdowns at Pha. this year is cause for concern

[Binder]

This notice is to inform you that one or more of your horses has worked out.
A. P. Aspen


Date: April 4, 2004
Track: PHILADELPHIA PARK
Distance: Five Furlongs
Time: 1.04:52 Breezing
Track Condition: Sloppy
Surface: Dirt
Rank: 3/3


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[cj]

They really count that as a work? Sounds like the "Walking Dead."

[Binder]

A. P. Aspen is entered to run on April 10, 2004 at PHILADELPHIA PARK





Race: 4 Distance: One Mile And Seventy Yards Surface: Dirt Age: 5 Sex: Gelding
Race Type: Claiming Purse: $7500
Jockey: Edwin Fuentes
Trainer: Faustino F. Ramos
Race conditions: FOR FOUR-YEAR-OLDS AND UPWARD WHICH HAVE NOT WON A RACE SINCE OCTOBER 10, 2003. Weight 122 lbs.; Claiming Price $4,000.
Last Raced: 03/13/2004 at PHILADELPHIA PARK in Race 10
Finish Position: 6th
Last Reported Workouts:
04/04/2004-PHILADELPHIA PARK-Five Furlongs-Dirt Sloppy-1.04:52 Breezing
02/03/2004-PHILADELPHIA PARK-Four Furlongs-Dirt Fast-50:71 Breezing
01/24/2004-PHILADELPHIA PARK-Four Furlongs-Dirt Fast-51:42 Breezing

[canrock]

The fix is in..........Bet the farm

[kenwoodallpromos]

Can you elaborate? AWWhat do you know specifically about a fix with this horse or trainer? If the horse could have won prior to this with that bad of works why has it demonstrated fading? If it was any good would it not be in for the original $13,000? Why is the owner/trainer willing to take a loss of $9.000? How much would the connections have to bet to be willing to underplace the horse for the last 6 months to stiff it? All the connections lose money that way. If you were the jockey would you be willing to give up $750.00 today in hopes of earning $750 next time?

[Binder]

Well the workout was not exactly the" Fabulous five "
bullet five furlong workout Wm.Scott writes about
And now they have dropped A.P.Aspen as far as they can.
His last at PHA was $4000 claiming NW2 in 6 months
This race is for NW1in 6 months So since $4000 is the lowest they run at PHA
This is the lowest of the low.
I was really hoping they would rest him after the last race
Give him time to heal and then come back fresh and want to run again
I will be rooting him on again but things t look bleak for A.P. Aspen now

[OTM Al]

He looks to be pretty much done if he stays there. I'll miss him this summer.

[Show Me the Wire]

OTM:

This is a serious question? You seem upset about he connections and the handling of this horse. You also believe the horse should be given some time off. I beleive this is a fair statement.

It is in your power to do something about it. Claim the horse for $4k and retire him, send him to a farm or maybe you can place him in one of the non-for-profit shelters.

Some poster's may say I am insulting or condescending and that is not the spirit of this post.

I sincerely believe you care about this horse and it is in your power to break the cycle for this horse and give him the care youbelieve he needs. You cannot depend on other people to do what you think is right, only you can do it. You can make a difference in this horse's life.

Claim the horse and take care of him or give him to a shelter, better yet make the owner an offer to privately buy the horse so the horse won't be subjected to the rigors of a race. It seems the owner may want someone to buy the horse anyway.

Best of luck and

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

perception is reality

[OTM Al]

You know I think I would if I could afford to. And I don't really think he needs to be retired. He just needs a good amount of time off.

[Show Me the Wire]

Well buy him and give him some time off. Approach the trainer and give him an offer, you may be surprised. The owner may even take payments. At least try.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

perception is reality

[Show Me the Wire]

OTM:

Let me explain a little more. The horse is costing the owner money every month, the owner may want to cut his losses and sell you the horse for a reasonable price, less than $4K. You maybe able to help this animal for less than $1k.

Of course I would not expect you to pay a premium for the horse, but if you do not ask you will never know if you could have made a difference in this horse's life for relatively little money.

I admire your concern and I am encouraging you to act upon your principles for both the benefit of you and the horse.

If the owner is unreasonable than you can feel relieved you tried to do your part.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

perception is reality

[OTM Al]

The purchase price wouldn't be the problem, it would be the cost of taking care of him that I couldn't swing and I do really wish I could. There's nothing I would enjoy more than owning a few horses.

I personally care about all the animals who race. The majority don't have such an easy life. Maybe it makes me a bit of a hypocrite as I do love playing them, but there are certain tracks that I won't play, Philadelphia for one, for reasons I've already stated.

Someday I hope that I will be in the position to do just what you suggest and be asured that I will. Unfortunately I am not at that point right now.

[Show Me the Wire]

OTM:

Yes, horses are a significant expenditure. I am not criticizing you, but personally that is why I, for myself, find it difficult to form an opinion about how someone should act when that someone is paying the bills.

I know at times I would do things differently than the current connections, but I am not in their shoes.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

perception is reality

[OTM Al]

If you check back through my posts, I didn't criticize any of his connections for what has happened to him. My original post on this thread was to find out who this new trainer was as I keep records on Pha, but never really look closely at them unless the horse ships to a track that I play. As we both well know, there are certain trainers out there who have a knack for getting improvement out of horses that they claim and there are trainers who might as well send the horses they claim to a rendering plant for all the good they do. I just wanted to know what sort of trainer this guy was because it was very possible that the damage was done before he got the horse and there simply isn't anything left. I took your comments originally as well meant, but now I'm not too sure. I will keep my right to have an opinion on things that interest/concern me, which is a wholly different thing than telling someone what to do.

[Show Me the Wire]

OTM:

Yes, I read your posts. I meant what I said I am not criticizing you. In my post, I said for myself I would prefer to see things done differently with some horses.

Additionally, personally, I do not think some trainers shouldn't be licensed after seeing how a horse changes in their care.

I was giving my opinion of how I feel and saying I am not in the person's shoes making the decisions. They are the ones that know their economic reasons better than me or maybe they feel they are doing the right thing. I was addressing my own fustrations too. Personally, I deal with the feelings you expressed by telling myself, it is out of my hands, unless I want to purchase control, or I am not fully aware of the reasons why people act the way they do.

Believe me I feel sorry for horses when I hear a certain trainer claimed the horse.

My intention was not to offend. I really was encouraging you to act upon your feelings, if you could. Of course you are entitled about your opinion about certain trainers and I am not suggesting you should feel the same as I do regarding situations I have no control over.


Regards,
Show Me the Wire

perception is reality

[OTM Al]

Okay, sorry about getting a little hostile there. Anyway, let's talk about something a little more fun. Why don't you weigh in on the thread I started about the Wood.

[Show Me the Wire]

OTM:

Not slighting your invite, but I would have nothing to add. I have not seen any of those horses run lately and I really do not follow the East Coast circuit, including GP. I am FG and Oaklawn winter racing enthusiast.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[OTM Al]

An area I know very little about myself except for the fact that I enjoy watching Smarty Jones and hope he takes the Arkansas Derby Saturday. Have you ever gone to Fair Grounds? I like New Orleans very much and was wondering what track I should visit to escape the blues next winter.

[Show Me the Wire]

OTM:

Smarty Jones is a nice horse. I think Purge might turn the tables this time. Purge ran tough but was a little short off the layoff. Not taking anything away from Smarty, he ran the type of race he needed to.

Would like to see him win for the possibility of the $5 mil bonus.

Never been to Fair Grounds, but it is in New Orleans. I spent some time at Oaklawn. Great atmosphere, good horses again, and good racing.

Hot Springs is a fun area in the Natural State. If you go I believe you will have a good time. I am sure the same is true for FG.

Use to go to GP every year but haven't the last two. Enjoyed Hot Springs more the last two years.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality

[Binder]

As the great HOF ex Mets announcer Bob Murphy
used to say Here is the unhappy recap

http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbChartResultsDisplay.cfm?TRK=PHA&CY=USA&DATE=04/10/2004&STYLE=EQB#RACE4


Time to go have a Rhiengold

[cj]

The amazing thing is the horse was bet to 5-1, ouch.

[Binder]

Its pobably the #3 post
PP#'s 1 2 3 get hammered at Pha especially at 8.3 furlongs

and these are the worst of the worst so
generally nobody closes

What is really amazing is the $69,753 that was bet into the