JFK was shot by secret service?

[Stillriledup]

According to this, yes.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2380691/President-JFK-documentary-alleges-WAS-second-shooter-assassination--Secret-Service-agent.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

[Robert Goren]

There is no end to this stuff. Even Bill O'Reilly believes Oswald did it.

[Stillriledup]

There is no end to this stuff. Even Bill O'Reilly believes Oswald did it.

Are there really people out there who think Oswald acted alone? :D

[Bettowin]

No chance Oswald acted alone. The mob was involved somehow. Frank Sheeran mentioned in the book about Jimmy Hoffa "I heard you paint houses" which seemed much more reasonable than an accidental shooting by an agent.

[fast4522]

What a load of shit, there is no way on this earth that the United States Secret Service did anything by accident with JFK's unfortunate demise. For the truth in this assassination of John F. Kennedy one needs to write down some facts that can not be changed by time.

1.) At the time of the assassination the state of Texas was in complete control of the investigation, autopsy, and Lee Harvey Oswald.

2.) The Mafia had nothing to gain with President Kennedy dead.

3.) Everyone who is anyone agrees Kennedy was killed because of the Vietnam War and executive orders Kennedy signed to end the Vietnam War.

4.) Lyndon Baines Johnson rescinded those executive orders Kennedy signed as soon as he was sworn into office.

[Stillriledup]

Something was "up" when Ruby said he killed Oswald because he was so distraught the president died. You know that's not even close to be true. So, when that happened, it was a thing that made you (or should have made you) go "huh"?

That's one of the 'red flags' that said LHO didnt act alone. (if he even acted at all).

[MPRanger]

Don't know if Oswald acted alone (probably did) but even if someone else was involved, Oswald certainly was.

1.) He carried his rifle to work in a bag (broken down) when he rode to work with his neighbor Buell Frazier. Frazier asked him what was in the bag and Oswald replied, "curtain Rods". No curtain rods were ever found in the Texas School Book Depository but Oswald's rifle was.

2.) When Oswald was arrested in the Texas Theater, the police weren't looking for Oswald. They were looking for whoever murdered Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippit. But they found Oswald.

[PaceAdvantage]

There is no end to this stuff. Even Bill O'Reilly believes Oswald did it.Nice pot stir there...but really...are you trying to say more right wingers than left wingers believe someone other than Oswald did it?

I would venture a guess it would be the other way around...ie. more left wingers believe in the conspiracy than right wingers...

[Marshall Bennett]

Oswald was an angry nut and acted alone. No organization would recruit such a dork to kill anything, let alone a president. It's been 50 years and no evidence to prove otherwise. You that believe otherwise should read up on Oswald and then do a bit more research into the assassination.
It's like ghost and flying saucers, it is what it is until proven otherwise.

[Marshall Bennett]

Something was "up" when Ruby said he killed Oswald because he was so distraught the president died. You know that's not even close to be true. So, when that happened, it was a thing that made you (or should have made you) go "huh"?

That's one of the 'red flags' that said LHO didnt act alone. (if he even acted at all).
Ruby shooting Oswald was by chance. Ruby stood in line at a Western Union office waiting his turn just prior to shooting Oswald. Had the line been slower he never would have seen Oswald. Had Oswald been taken out to silence him, why wasn't it immediately after the assassination, not days later? Oswald had more than enough time to talk. Ruby loved JFK, happen to carry a gun being a paranoid nightclub owner, and was at the right place and right time to see Oswald and kill him.

[PaceAdvantage]

What MB says makes sense. If they wanted Oswald dead, why not just kill him immediately after the assassination? In the book depository. You can claim he died in a firefight with police or SS agents...an easy story to float...

Why did they let him get away onto the streets if killing him was all part of the plan?

[jwb]

"JFK vs. The Federal Reserve.... it's lengthy, but well worth the read.

"On June 4, 1963, a virtually unknown Presidential decree, <executiveorder11110.htm>Executive Order 11110, was signed with the authority to basically strip the Federal Reserve Bank of its power to loan money to the United States Federal Government at interest. With the stroke of a pen, President Kennedy declared that the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank would soon be out of business."

http://rense.com/general76/jfkvs.htm (http://rense.com/general76/jfkvs.htm)

[johnhannibalsmith]

... Even Bill O'Reilly believes Oswald did it.

But his on-stage partner in crime had one of the better quotes... which related more to the stuff at the bottom of the thread...

"I haven't seen choreography that stiff since the Lee Harvey Oswald prison transfer." - Dennis Miller

That always makes me laugh. :D





Found the whole bit...

"I'm sorry if I seem a little off tonight. It's only just now sunk in that Zmed has replaced Terrio on "Dance Fever."
Adrian Zmed. There's a hoofer. I haven't seen choreography that stiff since the Lee Harvey Oswald prison transfer.
Don't you just love the fact that Jack Ruby got into the garage that day?There's a real stringent security network.
Hey boss, the guy that owns the local titty bar is here. He's got a handgun. Do I let him in?
Yeah, let's get him right in there.
Who the f*** were they turning away?"

[Johnny V]

Ruby shooting Oswald was by chance. Ruby stood in line at a Western Union office waiting his turn just prior to shooting Oswald. Had the line been slower he never would have seen Oswald. Had Oswald been taken out to silence him, why wasn't it immediately after the assassination, not days later? Oswald had more than enough time to talk. Ruby loved JFK, happen to carry a gun being a paranoid nightclub owner, and was at the right place and right time to see Oswald and kill him.
It looks like that is exactly what happened. These conspiracy theorists completely ignore the evidence in this case. Oswald was supposed to be transferred at 10AM but was delayed one hour. Ruby was home and had no idea that the transfer was delayed or even knew about the time. He sent his Western Union message and the time stamp on it was 11:17AM. He would have missed Oswald's transfer completely but Oswald delayed it by asking for a sweater to wear. Ruby shot Oswald at 11:21 AM. No way it was planned or a conspiracy on the part of Ruby to kill Oswald.

[cj's dad]

There is a very introspective novel written by James Garrison titled "Executive Action" which I thought was very thought provocative in its theories of plausible scenarios in which JFK could have been murdered.

IMO, the book is worth the read.

Interesting read:

http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/archived/garrison.htm

[TJDave]

Can't eat or sleep. I hope we can get to the bottom of this soon.

Preferably before breakfast time. :rolleyes:

[ElKabong]

Are there really people out there who think Oswald acted alone? :D

Yes.

Anyone who knew Oswald (and I grew up here, knew people that are familiar w. him) knows he wouldn't do anything in concert with anyone else.

He didn't have friends. Not even one.
He never kept a job
He was tossed out of the miltary
He was shunned by the Soviets
He bounced from one city to another in his youth
He rebelled against anything and everything

To think he acted with someone, is ludicrous. I've heard people say he was hired by the mafia or CIA......If that was the case, (a) they would have hired someone FAR more stable than Oswald, and (b) Oswald would have had a car wtg for him after the shooting (and likely would have been killed, chopped up and never seen again shortly thereafter)

No, instead he got on a bus, killed a cop in the middle of the street in front of a witness, then tried to kill another cop

Yep, this was the work of the CIA or the mafia :lol: :lol: :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

Yes.

Anyone who knew Oswald (and I grew up here, knew people that are familiar w. him) knows he wouldn't do anything in concert with anyone else.

He didn't have friends. Not even one.
He never kept a job
He was tossed out of the miltary
He was shunned by the Soviets
He bounced from one city to another in his youth
He rebelled against anything and everything

To think he acted with someone, is ludicrous. I've heard people say he was hired by the mafia or CIA......If that was the case, (a) they would have hired someone FAR more stable than Oswald, and (b) Oswald would have had a car wtg for him after the shooting (and likely would have been killed, chopped up and never seen again shortly thereafter)

No, instead he got on a bus, killed a cop in the middle of the street in front of a witness, then tried to kill another cop

Yep, this was the work of the CIA or the mafia :lol: :lol: :lol:Then again...the attributes you list...sure sounds like the making of a pretty good fall guy...or patsy...I think that's the word he used, wasn't it?

[ElKabong]

Ruby shooting Oswald was by chance. Ruby stood in line at a Western Union office waiting his turn just prior to shooting Oswald. Had the line been slower he never would have seen Oswald. Had Oswald been taken out to silence him, why wasn't it immediately after the assassination, not days later? Oswald had more than enough time to talk. Ruby loved JFK, happen to carry a gun being a paranoid nightclub owner, and was at the right place and right time to see Oswald and kill him.

Exactly correct

Ruby waited in a line at the Western Union ofc to wire some $$ to one of his dancers / strippers in Ft Worth. Also, Oswald asked for a sweater before the xfer, that took 10 minutes to happen....if Oswald didn't ask for a sweater, the xfer vehicle would already be at the destination by the time Ruby was walking back to his car

The imagination some of these people have in rgards to Oswald / Ruby are out of the park

Also, a motorcycle cop well behind the motorcade told me (in 1989) that he heard the final shot, he was on Houston St and it (gunfire) was directly in front of him (schoolbook depository, not the grassy knoll). Also, he said people down toward the underpass were running UP TOWARD the grassy knoll after the final shot....

No one runs TOWARD the gunshot. They run away from it. People were seeking cover from the Oswald perch. The films released later showed it to be the case

[ElKabong]

Then again...the attributes you list...sure sounds like the making of a pretty good fall guy...or patsy...I think that's the word he used, wasn't it?

He didn't have the mental or emotional capacity to follow anybody's orders....whose patsy would he have been :)

[PaceAdvantage]

He didn't have the mental or emotional capacity to follow anybody's orders....whose patsy would he have been :)Perhaps, but if we are to put stock in the official version of events, and the profile of Oswald you just put forth, wouldn't you think Oswald would have been dying to take full credit for what he had done? Why did he claim to be a patsy?

Wouldn't this dysfunctional miscreant be the type of person you'd expect to want to bask in the glory of his first real "achievement" in life?

I always found it curious that he tried to deny or minimize his role in the murder.

[Stillriledup]

It looks like that is exactly what happened. These conspiracy theorists completely ignore the evidence in this case. Oswald was supposed to be transferred at 10AM but was delayed one hour. Ruby was home and had no idea that the transfer was delayed or even knew about the time. He sent his Western Union message and the time stamp on it was 11:17AM. He would have missed Oswald's transfer completely but Oswald delayed it by asking for a sweater to wear. Ruby shot Oswald at 11:21 AM. No way it was planned or a conspiracy on the part of Ruby to kill Oswald.

But this assumes that if he had missed his opportunity during the transfer, he wouldnt have ever had another opportunity. Maybe he was thinking if i get him today, i get him today, if not, i'll get him at some other point, or someone else will get him.

[Stillriledup]

Yes.

Anyone who knew Oswald (and I grew up here, knew people that are familiar w. him) knows he wouldn't do anything in concert with anyone else.

He didn't have friends. Not even one.
He never kept a job
He was tossed out of the miltary
He was shunned by the Soviets
He bounced from one city to another in his youth
He rebelled against anything and everything

To think he acted with someone, is ludicrous. I've heard people say he was hired by the mafia or CIA......If that was the case, (a) they would have hired someone FAR more stable than Oswald, and (b) Oswald would have had a car wtg for him after the shooting (and likely would have been killed, chopped up and never seen again shortly thereafter)

No, instead he got on a bus, killed a cop in the middle of the street in front of a witness, then tried to kill another cop

Yep, this was the work of the CIA or the mafia :lol: :lol: :lol:

What if they didnt "hire" him to do the shooting, but just "picked him out" as a person who they would just blame after the real shooter(s) did their thing? Also, hiring someone instable with a bad reputation was what they wanted, that way, if they blamed him and he denied it, people would look at his rap sheet and just figure he did it.

[Marshall Bennett]

Seems that even conspiracy theorist would find it odd that with the assassination of perhaps the most beloved president ever, that 50 years later there is no evidence to support their cases, yet doubters press forward. With all the technology available I find this amazing. If anything, the more time that passes, the more that technology supports Oswald acting alone. Every twist and turn has come to a dead end with conspiracy theorist.

[MPRanger]

Seems that even conspiracy theorist would find it odd that with the assassination of perhaps the most beloved president ever, that 50 years later there is no evidence to support their cases, yet doubters press forward. With all the technology available I find this amazing. If anything, the more time that passes, the more that technology supports Oswald acting alone. Every twist and turn has come to a dead end with conspiracy theorist.


No. No. You don't understand. The conspirators thought of everything in advance.

[Tom]

Happened in TEXAS.

Must be that damn BUSH!

[xtb]

Happened in TEXAS.

Must be that damn BUSH!

Actually, some believe Bush 41 had some involvement. He worked for the CIA and was in Dallas that day.

[barn32]

Are there really people out there who think Oswald acted alone? :D...if we are to put stock in the official version of events, and the profile of Oswald you just put forth, wouldn't you think Oswald would have been dying to take full credit for what he had done? Why did he claim to be a patsy?

Wouldn't this dysfunctional miscreant be the type of person you'd expect to want to bask in the glory of his first real "achievement" in life?

I always found it curious that he tried to deny or minimize his role in the murder.Then again...the attributes you list...sure sounds like the making of a pretty good fall guy...or patsy...I think that's the word he used, wasn't it? If they wanted Oswald dead, why not just kill him immediately after the assassination? In the book depository. You can claim he died in a firefight with police or SS agents...an easy story to float...

Why did they let him get away onto the streets if killing him was all part of the plan?Actually, some believe Bush 41 had some involvement. He worked for the CIA and was in Dallas that day.There is a very introspective novel written by James Garrison titled "Executive Action" which I thought was very thought provocative in its theories of plausible scenarios in which JFK could have been murdered.

http://imageshack.us/a/img826/2318/op92.jpg

[PaceAdvantage]

http://imageshack.us/a/img826/2318/op92.jpgYou don't read very well. Especially the one where I ask why they didn't kill Oswald right away...meaning...I am writing AGAINST the conspiracy theorists here...

Breathe barn32...breathe...take your time...you'll get me again eventually...when you rush things, you get sloppy...

[Marshall Bennett]

Actually, some believe Bush 41 had some involvement. He worked for the CIA and was in Dallas that day.
Tell me you're not serious. That's as bad as believing Bush 43 ordered the attack on the world trade center. There are people that truly believe that, you know. Ask Rosie O'Donnell, she told a nation wide audience it was true on the View.
There should be a special category of theories for stupid shit like this, such as the moon landings being fake and aliens living among us.

[xtb]

Tell me you're not serious. That's as bad as believing Bush 43 ordered the attack on the world trade center. There are people that truly believe that, you know. Ask Rosie O'Donnell, she told a nation wide audience it was true on the View.
There should be a special category of theories for stupid shit like this, such as the moon landings being fake and aliens living among us.

I'm quite serious, some people do believe this. I didn't say that I believed he was involved in JFK's assassination. He was however in the CIA at the time and since he lived in Texas, it wouldn't have been unusual for him to be in Dallas that day.

[Stillriledup]

If the tin foil hat is just people "questioning authority" and questioning what they're told as gospel, what do you call someone who just gets brainwashed and believes what they're told? Maybe a picture of a good little soldier falling into line?

[newtothegame]

I, have always believed the version of the mainstream media. But, with that being said, there have been questions that have arisen over time that always have me wondering.
The most pressing being that why keep all of the files under wraps for so long? In the interest of national security??? Come on!!!
It would seem to me that by the time of their release, all parties who could of possibly had anything or any involvement would be dead. Makes for a nice clean cover up if that were to be the case.

But again, I do think in the end it was Oswald. Now, if he acted alone or not???
Seems like a pretty BIG plan for one guy acting alone. I think that someone else had to know something but I do not believe it was some huge government conspiracy. There were people in high levels who did not like Kennedy. But, time has shown that almost nothing can be kept secret. And, if there were a government conspiracy to kill Kennedy, I am sure it would of been brought to light by now....JMHO

[Marshall Bennett]

I do think in the end it was Oswald. Now, if he acted alone or not???
Seems like a pretty BIG plan for one guy acting alone.
No more so than say James Earl Ray or Sirhan with their victims. Actually, I find the shooting somewhat of a piece of cake for Oswald. Sneaking a rifle wrapped in paper into an abandoned building. He even built a makeshift stand or perch out of boxes. Could have had a coffee pot, but doubt there was electricity. His escape seemed the tricky part, but even a moron like Oswald managed to flee the scene.

[precocity]

oswald was the biggest patsy in the history of man, no way was he dead on with those shots. who was behind it don't know but the shooters were true professionals. oh and i like he went back in fourth to russia in those days.

[ElKabong]

If the tin foil hat is just people "questioning authority" and questioning what they're told as gospel,.....?

Not that it's questioning authority. You're questioning facts from eye witnesses.

You're also questioning reason. No way would the (fbi / cia / mafia / ss, name your alphabet) hire a guy like Oswald. He'd rat them out in a minute

The "i'm a patsy' comment. If he were hired by an agency he would have said so directly. That was "him" to the core. Nothing was ever his fault, it was always someone else's.

I have a (true) story about the owner of The Egyptian Lounge (Mr Campisi, mob ties) who supposedly, per the tin hatters, was the facilitator of the assasination. It's a long one, I'll save it for November :) The tin hatters had to backtrack after the truth came out proving he had nothing to do with it

[Johnny V]

I do have somewhat of a problem with Oswald shooting that rifle successfully. They keep saying he fired 3 shots accurately with that bolt action rifle in 5.8 seconds or so. The rate of fire is believable because the first shot is free in the sense that the clock starts then because the first round has already been bolted in the chamber so it is only two shots in that time, right? I have a problem with the accuracy. They supposedly did a test replicating the event with 11 marksmen and none of them scored two hits and 7 did not score any hits at all. When you are a sniper using a scope with a moving target do you usually need a spotter and is it difficult keeping your moving target in sight? The more I have read about this the more confused I get with all the conflicting eyewitnesses and so called facts. I don't know what to believe anymore.

[elysiantraveller]

oswald was the biggest patsy in the history of man, no way was he dead on with those shots. who was behind it don't know but the shooters were true professionals. oh and i like he went back in fourth to russia in those days.

88 Yards...

That's a very easy shot. I could have made it, and several others on here could have too. 3x?....

[JustRalph]

It's been recreated several times with success, if my memory serves me the guy who first pulled it off was an airline captain who was a weekend plinker, with lots of experience with the right rifle.

[elysiantraveller]

It's been recreated several times with success, if my memory serves me the guy who first pulled it off was an airline captain who was a weekend plinker, with lots of experience with the right rifle.

JR I don't need to tell you this.

We, not me my family, has a Weatherby Mark 5 with a early 1970's era Leupold scope. Now granted its a little "newer" than when JFK was shot with that gun given 3x at it I have doubt in the outcome. I have zero military training and 3x at that would be a cakewalk.

EDIT) To be honest Oswald's gun would be better than mine because he is shooting a much lighter bullet (6.5) than my 7mm Magnum.

[Marshall Bennett]

It's been recreated several times with success, if my memory serves me the guy who first pulled it off was an airline captain who was a weekend plinker, with lots of experience with the right rifle.
It's been recreated by a number of people in articles about the shooting. I don't have my hands on any of them, but a little research would confirm it. Oswald was no slouch with a rifle either, he scored well above average in the marines. As for the moving target, it was moving away from Oswald almost in a direct line of sight and he had the advantage of being above his target. He probably had as good of a position he could ask for short of standing out on the street as the motorcade passed.
Science has all but confirmed over the years the nature of the shooting, some just don't want to let it go.

[Dahoss2002]

oswald was the biggest patsy in the history of man, no way was he dead on with those shots..
Marksmanship can be learned. I am accurate at 100 yds open sights with a 30-30. Almost anyone, with training and practice, can become an excellent marksman. Oswald easily could have made those shots.

[precocity]

Marksmanship can be learned. I am accurate at 100 yds open sights with a 30-30. Almost anyone, with training and practice, can become an excellent marksman. Oswald easily could have made those shots.
its a proven fact that they were two shooters it was caught on the dallas police motorcycle radio that was on? anybody remember that. oh I can bust azz with a 306 but moving target people everywhere the looks of oswald doubt it!


On the Kennedy assassination, the HSCA concluded in its 1979 report that:

1.Lee Harvey Oswald fired three shots at Kennedy. The second and third shots Oswald fired struck the President. The third shot he fired successfully killed the President.
2.Scientific acoustical evidence establishes a high probability that at least two gunmen fired at the President. Other scientific evidence does not preclude the possibility of two gunmen firing at the President. Scientific evidence negates some specific conspiracy allegations.
3.The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee was unable to identify the other gunmen or the extent of the conspiracy.
The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the Soviet Government was not involved in the assassination of Kennedy.
The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the Cuban Government was not involved in the assassination of Kennedy.
The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that anti-Castro Cuban groups, as groups, were not involved in the assassination of Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved.
The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the national syndicate of organized crime, as a group, was not involved in the assassination of Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved.
The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the Secret Service, Federal Bureau of Investigation, and Central Intelligence Agency were not involved in the assassination of Kennedy.
4.Agencies and departments of the U.S. Government performed with varying degrees of competency in the fulfilment of their duties. President Kennedy did not receive adequate protection. A thorough and reliable investigation into the responsibility of Lee Harvey Oswald for the assassination was conducted. The investigation into the possibility of conspiracy in the assassination was inadequate. The conclusions of the investigations were arrived at in good faith, but presented in a fashion that was too definitive.
The Committee further concluded that it was probable that:

four shots were fired
the third shot came from a second assassin located on the grassy knoll, but missed. They concluded that it missed due to the lack of physical evidence of an actual bullet, of course this investigation took place almost sixteen years after the crime.
The HSCA agreed with the single bullet theory, but concluded that it occurred at a time point during the assassination that differed from any of the several time points the Warren Commission theorized it occurred.

The Department of Justice, FBI, CIA, and the Warren Commission were all criticized for not revealing to the Warren Commission information available in 1964, and the Secret Service was deemed deficient in their protection of the President.

The HSCA made several accusations of deficiency against the FBI and CIA.[4] The accusations encompassed organizational failures, miscommunication, and a desire to keep certain parts of their operations secret. Furthermore, the Warren Commission expected these agencies to be forthcoming with any information that would aid their investigation. But the FBI and CIA only saw it as their duty to respond to specific requests for information from the commission. However, the HSCA found the FBI and CIA were deficient in performing even that limited role.

[precocity]

since I am a 12th generation texan :D talk passed down to me is that they were going to get him in fort worth where they landed? but the hit was going to go down on the 30 min drive to dallas? but just hearsay?

[Marshall Bennett]

its a proven fact that they were two shooters it was caught on the dallas police motorcycle radio that was on?
It was later determined that the officer who's radio was stuck hadn't even entered Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination, therefore anything recorded was dismissed and deemed unrelated.

[MPRanger]

It was later determined that the officer who's radio was stuck hadn't even entered Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination, therefore anything recorded was dismissed and deemed unrelated.


The place on the ch1 Dallas Police recording where the HSCA scientists determined they found the signatures of super sonic bullets being fired was proven to have occurred about a minute after the assassination thus undermining their conclusion that there was a 95% probability of a shooter on the grassy knoll.

There was a second police frequency in use and there are instances of bleed over or crosstalk from one frequency to the other. Specifically, Dallas Sheriff Bill Decker made a broadcast on ch 2 to "Hold everything secure till homicide and other investigators could get there". He said that well after the shooting, in response to the shooting. This actually bled over onto ch1 at the moment the HSCA scientists thought they found shots. They didn't listen for bleed over. They only ran the entire audio recording thru an oscilloscope to see what patterns the audio signal produced.

Bottom line is their findings have been debunked.

[elysiantraveller]

Marksmanship can be learned. I am accurate at 100 yds open sights with a 30-30. Almost anyone, with training and practice, can become an excellent marksman. Oswald easily could have made those shots.

It's really a dumb point to argue... I don't know why the comment was even made...

88 yards moving at 15 mph straight away is a chip shot for even the most "slightly" proficient shooter.

I remove a lot of pests in my area and 88 yard shots are what I dream about... because I never get them.

[cj's dad]

http://imageshack.us/a/img826/2318/op92.jpgI did not offer an opinion in either direction. I simply proffered that there was a book published which offered an interesting opinion. Grow up and learn to read and comprehend.

[precocity]

with all the conspiracy and that pristine bullet and all the witnesses that died way too soon after this event? never mind all that just look at oswald can you really imagine him in the school book depository pulling off those shots like a madman? he looked like a woosy to me. anyway one of those shots the blow off half your head shot came from the front right. hell got jury duty a block away monday might go check it out again.

[fast4522]

I did not offer an opinion in either direction. I simply proffered that there was a book published which offered an interesting opinion. Grow up and learn to read and comprehend.

This is how some function, the content was not why you were quoted, just the perception of you makes the dudes lip twitch.

[elysiantraveller]

with all the conspiracy and that pristine bullet and all the witnesses that died way too soon after this event? never mind all that just look at oswald can you really imagine him in the school book depository pulling off those shots like a madman? he looked like a woosy to me. anyway one of those shots the blow off half your head shot came from the front right. hell got jury duty a block away monday might go check it out again.

The bullet was pristine because of the range... again 88 yards. Secondly, yes shooting those accurate kind of shots in that rapidity is very easy if you know what you are doing.

[A. Pineda]

Are there any tin foil hats left?

After the assassination the FBI, CIA, and even CBS attempted to duplicate the shooting, and none of them could within the time allotted. They all used experts with weapons in excellent shape, including the sights.

Oswald, on the other hand, had a Carcano with a defective sight and an unpredictable trigger. In his last qualification in the Marines he barely passed (by 2 points), and that was after a week of intensive practice. Coincidentally, I qualified on the same course with the same weapon and in the same year, and a 191 score was poor.

Oswald used a shotgun while hunting in Russia, and may not have used a rifle at all in the years prior to the assassination. The FBI said that his wife had lied and changed her testimony so many times that it should be disregarded, yet the WC cherry-picked her statements about whether LHO practiced or not and included them in the report.

(Braggadacio Alert) I hit the bullseye 10 times at 500 yards for a perfect score, but rapid fire is entirely different. I doubt that I could get off three shots and hit a moving target twice with that weapon, even at 88 yards, in less than six seconds. The sight is pulled off the target when the bolt is opened and the sight was misaligned to begin with. I think that he had help.

Now, where is my hat?

[MPRanger]

Are there any tin foil hats left?

After the assassination the FBI, CIA, and even CBS attempted to duplicate the shooting, and none of them could within the time allotted. They all used experts with weapons in excellent shape, including the sights.




The time alloted? And what time would that be? The Warren Commission report was not specific on how much time was taken or even on the number or sequence of shots. It allowed as much as 8.3 seconds. The first shot wouldn't even count against the time because it would already be chambered and when fired the time would start. If there were two more shots that would give up to 4 seconds each. If they were all fired in six seconds, that would give 3 seconds for the next two. Three seconds on a short timeline? Who couldn't do that?





Oswald, on the other hand, had a Carcano with a defective sight and an unpredictable trigger. In his last qualification in the Marines he barely passed (by 2 points), and that was after a week of intensive practice. Coincidentally, I qualified on the same course with the same weapon and in the same year, and a 191 score was poor.




A defective sight - Oswalds's rifle could use either the optical sight or the built on iron sights. The qualification you refer to that Oswald barely passed , he scored marksman. A passing score is a poor score?

What is your source about the trigger being defective?




Oswald used a shotgun while hunting in Russia, and may not have used a rifle at all in the years prior to the assassination. The FBI said that his wife had lied and changed her testimony so many times that it should be disregarded, yet the WC cherry-picked her statements about whether LHO practiced or not and included them in the report.



Marina Oswald identified the rifle as belonging to Oswald. She never changed that. Nevertheless, you have no standing to say he didn't practice with a rifle.

Oswald's rifle was found in the Texas School Book Depository building on the same floor as the snipers nest.




Now, where is my hat?

[Marshall Bennett]

Considering the time starts following the first shot, he had over 8 seconds to get the next two off. This was not even remotely difficult for anyone that knows how to shoot a rifle.. I recall one of the testers of one of many scientific studies claiming his 12 year old son could manage it routinely, often hitting targets similar to what Oswald had shot. I don't have a link to the study, but trust me, it's there.

[A. Pineda]

[QUOTE]The time alloted? And what time would that be? The Warren Commission report was not specific on how much time was taken or even on the number or sequence of shots. It allowed as much as 8.3 seconds. The first shot wouldn't even count against the time because it would already be chambered and when fired the time would start. If there were two more shots that would give up to 4 seconds each. If they were all fired in six seconds, that would give 3 seconds for the next two. Three seconds on a short timeline? Who couldn't do that?
The WC originally said that the time required for two shots was 4.8-5.6 seconds, and then the figure was changed to 7.9 seconds, because they could have been the 1st and 3rd shots. After viewing the Zapruder film, some say it could have been as much as 8.3 seconds. That is a lot of time, if you have a fully functioning weapon, not the Mannlicher-Carcano that LHO had.

A defective sight - Oswalds's rifle could use either the optical sight or the built on iron sights. The qualification you refer to that Oswald barely passed , he scored marksman. A passing score is a poor score?

What is your source about the trigger being defective?

A score of 191 was a very poor score, and that was after a week of eight-hour days of intensive practice. Depending on which version of Marina Oswald's statements you believe, LHO had little to no practice with the rifle.

The sight was defective, according to the testimony of Richard Simmons, Chief of the Infantry Weapons Evaluation Branch of the Ballistics Research Laboratory of the US Army. His gunsmith had to insert three shims at the base of the sight in order to sight the weapon correctly. These shims were not in the weapon, of course when it was fired by LHO.

The three shooters that tested the rifle were all rated "Master" by the NRA. They had difficulty opening the bolt, and at least one time it took two attempts. As for the trigger, I never said that it was defective. The testers said that it was unpredictable.

As for your theory that Oswald could have used the iron sights, the weapon was set at the factory to be accurate at 218 yards. Any shots using the built-in sights would be very high and off the target.

FBI expert Robert Frazier testified that the sight was off by 4"-5" high at 25 yards. At 100 yards computer models indicate the distance to be 18" off the target (high).

[elysiantraveller]

...

The fact the scope was off has no bearing. If you know your holds you simply adjust.

[Robert Goren]

If Oswald didn't do the shooting, what was he doing on the sixth floor of a building over looking the route with a high powered rife?

[sammy the sage]

I hit a deer running full tilt w/an open sighted w/a 410 slug at approx. 90 yds...so the shot could quite easily be made w/a rifle...which I've...never mind...tmi...

2ndly said 410 was right handed bolt action...but even being left handed could shoot ACCURATELY 3x's in less than 8 secs.

so yes he could have done it...BBBuuuutttttttttt......he coulda had help just as easy....many facts NOT clear.

[FantasticDan]

In 2003, Peter Jennings and ABC News aired a great 90 minute special which showed how bogus the conspiracy theories are:

JiqDCFSADW8

[Marshall Bennett]

People who subscribe to the 2nd gunman theory seem to automatically dismiss one crucial element, the whereabouts of the 2nd gunman both before and after the shooting. Dealey Plaza was crowded, where did he escape to? Where did he go for 50 years? Witnesses saw Oswald following the shooting, several pointed him out As another poster pointed out, people ran towards the grassy knoll not to capture a shooter, but to escape the scene in fear of their lives. I don't see where a single gunman scenario is anything other than common sense. Fifty years later it's the only conclusion that makes any sense.

[johnhannibalsmith]

People who subscribe to the 2nd gunman theory seem to automatically dismiss one crucial element, the whereabouts of the 2nd gunman both before and after the shooting. Dealey Plaza was crowded, where did he escape to? Where did he go for 50 years? Witnesses saw Oswald following the shooting, several pointed him out As another poster pointed out, people ran towards the grassy knoll not to capture a shooter, but to escape the scene in fear of their lives. I don't see where a single gunman scenario is anything other than common sense. Fifty years later it's the only conclusion that makes any sense.


This sort of gets to why I don't think much of the conspiracies.

Practically every "associate" of practically every syndicate or family has sold their story for a book, a movie, does interviews for BIO channel. The coked up athletes of the 80's can't wait to make a buck spilling the beans on everything that ever happened in the locker rooms. Every half baked celebrity with seven seconds of fame has to do a tell-all detailing who was in their pants and for how long to make it to 999 on the NYT top 1,000 bestseller list.

If there was something to tell and someone to say it, at this point, I think the lure of money and lack of any expectation of discretion or secrecy from the world would have drawn it out somehow. At least, the odds would seem to favor that kind of outcome by now.

[A. Pineda]

This sort of gets to why I don't think much of the conspiracies.

Practically every "associate" of practically every syndicate or family has sold their story for a book, a movie, does interviews for BIO channel. The coked up athletes of the 80's can't wait to make a buck spilling the beans on everything that ever happened in the locker rooms. Every half baked celebrity with seven seconds of fame has to do a tell-all detailing who was in their pants and for how long to make it to 999 on the NYT top 1,000 bestseller list.

If there was something to tell and someone to say it, at this point, I think the lure of money and lack of any expectation of discretion or secrecy from the world would have drawn it out somehow. At least, the odds would seem to favor that kind of outcome by now.

:ThmbUp: I agree with everything said here. Although the House Select Committee on Assassinations chastised the Secret Service, the Department of Justice, the FBI, the CIA, and the Warren Commission itself, the commitee's conclusion's were similar to that of the WC, in most respects. The commitee did believe that there was another shooter, however, who fired once and missed.

There are many other errors and omissions in Jennings' presentation. LHO was a sharpshooter 7 years prior to the assassination, but his last qualification was as a marksman. The rifle he used in the rapid fire sequence was a semi-automatic, which can be fired without swinging the weapon off the target, as occurs when the bolt is operated manually, as with the Carcano.

Jennings investigators could not find any connections to LHO in Mexico City, but they weren't looking in the right place. LHO and two associates passed out pro-Castro flyers in August of '63. Four days prior to the Walker assassination attempt, two men were seen spying on the Walker residence. After the attempt on Walker's life, two men were seen racing away from the scene. One shot had been fired, and it missed the target.

I haven't read any books on the JFK assassination yet, and probably never will. I can read the Warren Report (98% released to date) and the HSCA Final Report, and come to my own conclusions. This is why I never believed in any of the conspiracy theories, save one.

LHO was such a crappy shooter that I thought that one of his pro-Castro buddies may have fired the weapon instead, after having practised with it beforehand. Far-fetched, I know. The bottom line is that a kook with a weapon can cause a lot of damage, and maybe LHO was just very lucky that day, as disgusting as that sounds.

[precocity]

The bullet was pristine because of the range... again 88 yards. Secondly, yes shooting those accurate kind of shots in that rapidity is very easy if you know what you are doing.
went to jury duty at the george allen building yesterday did not get picked but was stuck there for 6 hours. got out walked a block over and there it is daley plaza to the right and school book depository behind me. the have a museum there now,now that I am older and looked over the whole scene and distance it seems so much smaller. like one person with the right skills could've pulled it off. man you should see all the people just walking around there taking pics? I'M not really into conspiracy theories but my step father was there when this event went down, and all he would say was their was a lot of strange sheit going on afterwards. when I asked him like what? he said I will tell you one thing there were a lot of men over dressed on that hot day and men walking around with umbrellas. so as i got older he is 81 now we went fishing and me and my half brother asked him what really went down that day, he simply said he didn't want to talk about it? the past is the past my man!

[fast4522]

We as a people are conditioned to let sleeping dogs rest.
That being said the majority are only interested in who pulled the trigger, but really don't want to know who ordered the dirty deed.
The truth lays in what kind of a people we are and will submit to you that we really have not changed that much since the 60.s.
Today we have leaders in the Congress who entered their positions in our government at a certain net wealth, and are now certainly worth many times over now that they have been in office. Anyone of average intelligence would conclude that they are heavily invested in markets that do not get beat. This is the key, it was the same in the 60's. Everyone who was anyone back then had investments that could not be beat unless we did not go into Vietnam. Sitting in the VP slot was a man who would reverse the President's decision to not go into Vietnam.
Just how many people are alive today that know the real truth, the answer is boatloads and they have meetings every year. Every single serious seeker of the office of President seeks their approval prior to securing the nomination of either political party.

[jerry-g]

I was in Texas on that fateful day. JFK had been warned to not go to Texas
because Big Oil was upset with him for what he was going to hand them in his
speech. I think the Son of Texas, Johnson was their man who could keep
them in the dough. Johnson, when elected favored Texas and of course is
responsible for getting the Houston Space Center we did not need, but was
a compromise with Cape Canaveral. I always felt he gained power because
of Big Oil companies. That was November 23rd, 1963, I believe, when they
blew his brains out. Everyone, republicans and democrat's alike cried for
days. Outside of Pearl, it was the sadist day in American history I can
remember.

[Ocala Mike]

That was November 22nd, 1963, I believe, when they
blew his brains out.



FTFY. It was a Friday, and I heard the news at Aqueduct Racetrack from Fred Capposella, the track announcer. Will always remember the moment.
I had cut my college classes to play the ponies; think they ran the first three races, then called the rest off.

[Tom]

Sitting in Social Studies class, 7th grade, when a teach from across the hall came in the room crying and announced "They Killed the President! Kennedy is dead!"

School let out about 10 minutes later. Cancelled the dance that night, the football game Saturday......whole town went down for three days. Stores even closed, the Catholic church sent several buses full of the "men" to DC to pay respects.

[jerry-g]

FTFY. It was a Friday, and I heard the news at Aqueduct Racetrack from Fred Capposella, the track announcer. Will always remember the moment.
I had cut my college classes to play the ponies; think they ran the first three races, then called the rest off.

Thanks for the FIFY. The Johnson Space Center was it renamed Houston?
I know at one time they renamed Cape Canaveral to Cape Kennedy. After
a rocket would take off from the Cape at some point in time it would turn
over all control to Houston. Not important I guess. Just wondering why
they had to go through this just so Johnson could get more jobs and
revenue for Texas. I remember a Texas Ranger stopped his limousine on
the interstate for speeding, I believe he was going almost 100mph. It
was rumored that no one was expecting that troupers career to be going
too far.