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Hoofless_Wonder
07-22-2013, 03:19 PM
I've always been a bit fuzzy on these.

Saratoga Race 5 just had a late "scratch" of :7: Hillhouse High when at the gate she was altered to a purse-money only entrant.

What's up with that?

What are the rules for those? She gets to the gate lathered up, and her connections want to back out their bets?

Stillriledup
07-22-2013, 03:27 PM
Im sure the bettors who bet on the front runner were happy to see their horse in a speed duel with a "ghost"

Zydeco
07-22-2013, 03:36 PM
Crist at DRF says the horse lost a shoe at the gate

Hoofless_Wonder
07-22-2013, 04:38 PM
This is every bit as bad as late races in a pick 6 coming off the turf due to rain.

If the horse lost a shoe at the gate, shouldn't it be a scratch?

Stillriledup
07-22-2013, 04:40 PM
This is every bit as bad as late races in a pick 6 coming off the turf due to rain.

If the horse lost a shoe at the gate, shouldn't it be a scratch?

Some tracks delay the race and re shoe the horse.

Zydeco
07-22-2013, 04:56 PM
This is every bit as bad as late races in a pick 6 coming off the turf due to rain.

If the horse lost a shoe at the gate, shouldn't it be a scratch?

I think he was a scratch for wagering. Ran for purse money only.

Hoofless_Wonder
07-22-2013, 05:13 PM
I think he was a scratch for wagering. Ran for purse money only.

Right, but by letting the horse run it affected the outcome of the race. If a horse loses a shoe and thus becomes a greater risk as far as the wagering goes, then it shouldn't be allowed to run at all.....

That's why I'm curious about rules for "purse money only" runners. I should think that it would only be allowed for stakes caliber deep closers who are using a race as a tightener. Any other scenario seems to be unfair to the betting public, and especially when it comes at the gate.

Stillriledup
07-22-2013, 05:24 PM
Right, but by letting the horse run it affected the outcome of the race. If a horse loses a shoe and thus becomes a greater risk as far as the wagering goes, then it shouldn't be allowed to run at all.....

That's why I'm curious about rules for "purse money only" runners. I should think that it would only be allowed for stakes caliber deep closers who are using a race as a tightener. Any other scenario seems to be unfair to the betting public, and especially when it comes at the gate.

I agree, i guess the question is: if the horse is "fit" to run, why can't people bet on that runner and take the inherent risks associated? Maybe they figured that people handicapped the race thinking that all the runners would have all of their shoes.....but the interesting part of the equasion is that this only "protects" the bettors who have already wagered. If you are a bettor who waits till the last second, this situation hurt you because you would have been able to theoretically throw out a horse you knew had no shoe at under 10-1 and gain an edge from that late information.

Saratoga_Mike
07-22-2013, 05:31 PM
I agree, i guess the question is: if the horse is "fit" to run, why can't people bet on that runner and take the inherent risks associated? Maybe they figured that people handicapped the race thinking that all the runners would have all of their shoes.....but the interesting part of the equasion is that this only "protects" the bettors who have already wagered. If you are a bettor who waits till the last second, this situation hurt you because you would have been able to theoretically throw out a horse you knew had no shoe at under 10-1 and gain an edge from that late information.

In this type of situation, the track should create two separate win pools: one for those in the dark about the lost shoe and one for bettors like yourself who want to shrewdly exploit the lost shoe angle.

OTM Al
07-22-2013, 05:39 PM
Right, but by letting the horse run it affected the outcome of the race. If a horse loses a shoe and thus becomes a greater risk as far as the wagering goes, then it shouldn't be allowed to run at all.....

That's why I'm curious about rules for "purse money only" runners. I should think that it would only be allowed for stakes caliber deep closers who are using a race as a tightener. Any other scenario seems to be unfair to the betting public, and especially when it comes at the gate.

I would say it was because the horse was not running with listed equipment. Not letting the horse run would affect the race as well.

Stillriledup
07-22-2013, 05:41 PM
In this type of situation, the track should create two separate win pools: one for those in the dark about the lost shoe and one for bettors like yourself who want to shrewdly exploit the lost shoe angle.

Yes, if the betting is still open and i see some "edge" on a horse losing a shoe, or breaking thru the gate or something like that, i'm going to try and take advantage of that. You gotta get any edge you can find, its a tough game!

Saratoga_Mike
07-22-2013, 06:05 PM
Yes, if the betting is still open and i see some "edge" on a horse losing a shoe, or breaking thru the gate or something like that, i'm going to try and take advantage of that. You gotta get any edge you can find, its a tough game!

If you bet early and the horse was part of the betting pool, you'd be complaining about that. You do realize that, right?

Saratoga_Mike
07-22-2013, 06:06 PM
I would say it was because the horse was not running with listed equipment. Not letting the horse run would affect the race as well.

Yes, but apparently SRU has a "missing shoe" angle

OTM Al
07-22-2013, 07:22 PM
Yes, but apparently SRU has a "missing shoe" angle

He certainly has an angle all right.

Magister Ludi
07-22-2013, 07:33 PM
I've always been a bit fuzzy on these.

Saratoga Race 5 just had a late "scratch" of :7: Hillhouse High when at the gate she was altered to a purse-money only entrant.

What's up with that?

What are the rules for those? She gets to the gate lathered up, and her connections want to back out their bets?

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=102423

BMustang
07-23-2013, 06:36 AM
One of the most common "Purse money only" scenerios is a late scratch involving a coupled entry.

The surviving half of the entry goes PMO which protects the bettors who played the scratched half of the entry as their primary selection.

I have no problem at all with the "Off the Turf" race being declared an all for the purpose of the multi-race wager.

BMustang
07-23-2013, 06:43 AM
A few years back at Ellis Park a horse entered to run in say the 8th race was announced as a program scratch prior to the start of the race program.

He was still a scratch up until the race previous to his race, despite the onset of multi-race wagers. At this point he was declared a Purse Money Only horse, due to the fact that he was not the intended scratch, it was the horse below him. So we had the original horse re-entered into the race, and the horse beneath him scratched.

Being a "need the lead" type the PMO horse, did indeed factor into the outcome of the race. In this case I disagree with allowing the "scratched" horse to run.

Ron Herbstreit, the state steward at the time, and I discussed this at length at a later time, and his response was that since the horse was announced as a scratch in error, the stewards were simply doing the right thing by the horseman who owned/trained him.

Six of one, half-dozen of the other, I guess.

Robert Goren
07-23-2013, 10:42 AM
Breaking through the gate should be an automatic scratch. Bettors should not have to scramble to cancel their wagers. Plus what about the bettors who place a bet and then go off to work. It is not fair to them either. Anybody who doesn't think that breaking through gate doesn't comprise the chance hasn't been around this game very long. I realize the tracks don't want to lose the handle, but be fair to customer here.

Robert Goren
07-23-2013, 10:49 AM
I have mixed feelings about running for purse money only. I understand why they it when there is late scratch of an entry. Still it doesn't smell right. And we all know that racing has a lot of problems with passing the smell test with a lot of people.

OTM Al
07-23-2013, 12:28 PM
I have mixed feelings about running for purse money only. I understand why they it when there is late scratch of an entry. Still it doesn't smell right. And we all know that racing has a lot of problems with passing the smell test with a lot of people.

Frankly I think it's the best possible thing to do. Consider the two possibilities

1) You had the horse (or entry). The horse is no longer running in the same condition you thought he would be. You get your money back.

2) You had another horse. In most cases the race runs just like it would have if he was in for money. Pulling the horse may have completely altered the pace dynamic.

Of course it's an imperfect answer to a problem, but so are any other answers. The rule is established and as long as it is followed, it is fair.

cordep17
07-23-2013, 01:07 PM
Seems like an automatic pass if I were trying to bet this race.
I would have no clue how the lost shoe would affect the horse. What if he was, in your opinion, a speedster who runs a midpack race. It doesn't mean you were wrong about the running style. There would be no knowing what to expect.