How P'off would you be? LaD and the PK5 botch job

[racingfan378]

Yesterday the will pays for LaD claim that the :1: as well as three other horses was paying the whole pot. Even the announcer in the race call said the pool was hit when the #1 won the race;)

Later on....Prices posted and it only paid $11k! My friend told me that TWO people hit it and not that one unique ticket:eek:

If I am playing, I am thinking I am collecting $488k due to the will pays and yet the result said something different? that's simply not right:mad:

I don't know enough about racing laws, but couldn't something like that end up in a lawsuit? :confused:

Mistake or not, that isn't right and saying "Whoops my bad" isn't going to fix it:faint:

[TravisVOX]

The probable payoffs provided by the tote company prior to the 9th race were incorrect. We along with every ADW and simulcast outlet use the same data feed provided by tote.

In this case, the second winning ticket could not be figured into the probables because it was dependent on the post time favorite, who ultimately won the race.

Thus there were two tickets with the winning 5-for-5 combination, leading to a carryover into today's card. We also turned-off the feed of probables in the Super Pick 5 to avoid this in the future.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

Ah, well that makes the call of the last race by the announcer make more sense.

Brutal change of luck for the ticket holder who had the one selected though.

What I want to know is why the carryover for the P5 only grew by $24K after much larger jumps in the previous three days.....or why was only $64K bet on the pick 5 yesterday and $272K on Friday?

[Stillriledup]

If you're alive for 500k with the "main contender" why not stick 5k to win on the 2nd choice so you can make sure the "other horse" goes off the favorite? Would 5k have gotten the job done?

[SharpCat]

If you're alive for 500k with the "main contender" why not stick 5k to win on the 2nd choice so you can make sure the "other horse" goes off the favorite? Would 5k have gotten the job done?


$3500 would have gotten the job done.

[Stillriledup]

$3500 would have gotten the job done.

Thanks.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

If you're alive for 500k with the "main contender" why not stick 5k to win on the 2nd choice so you can make sure the "other horse" goes off the favorite? Would 5k have gotten the job done?

$74K of WPS wagers, winner was 1.60 - 1, 2nd choice was 2.40 - 1, so I think $5K might have been a smidge short - but $10K on the :11: would have probably swung the tide and made him the chalk. M/L on the winner :1: was 6-1, and the kicker would maybe not being aware of the late scratch got the post time favorite in the P5 pool.

Ouch.

[Stillriledup]

$74K of WPS wagers, winner was 1.60 - 1, 2nd choice was 2.40 - 1, so I think $5K might have been a smidge short - but $10K on the :11: would have probably swung the tide and made him the chalk. M/L on the winner :1: was 6-1, and the kicker would maybe not being aware of the late scratch got the post time favorite in the P5 pool.

Ouch.

That's kind of a tough beat if you had the 1 at 6-1 ML and the horse found its way to be the betting favorite.

[Mineshaft]

is this an on track wager only?


how many times has this Pik5 carried over?

[Stillriledup]

is this an on track wager only?


how many times has this Pik5 carried over?

Its probably carried many days in a row, anyone with an ADW that accepts LaD can play.

[Mineshaft]

it has to be only one winner to take the pot down correct?

[Stillriledup]

it has to be only one winner to take the pot down correct?

yeah, its one of those jackpot deals, im not a big fan of that type of bet, its evil. :D

[Hoofless_Wonder]

I don't know if it's been hit and had to "start over" since the LaD season has opened, but the carryover pool has been $272K, $339K, $441K and $464K the last four racing days. For some reason, only $64K was bet into the pool yesterday......

[TravisVOX]

I should have been more clear above... the willpays were never "incorrect." They were posted/calculated at a time when the #11 was actually the favorite, but ultimately the #1 was the favorite when the race closed.

[racingfan378]

The probable payoffs provided by the tote company prior to the 9th race were incorrect. We along with every ADW and simulcast outlet use the same data feed provided by tote.

In this case, the second winning ticket could not be figured into the probables because it was dependent on the post time favorite, who ultimately won the race.

Thus there were two tickets with the winning 5-for-5 combination, leading to a carryover into today's card. We also turned-off the feed of probables in the Super Pick 5 to avoid this in the future.

If you aren't going to post the will pays the least you can do is a Pk5 follow along with the # of tickets still alive after each race

Not showing the will pays based on one mistake seems very sketchy to me and as a horseplayer you are completely in the dark of which horse will pay more if you have multiple horses in the final leg.

[Stillriledup]

If you aren't going to post the will pays the least you can do is a Pk5 follow along with the # of tickets still alive after each race

Not showing the will pays based on one mistake seems very sketchy to me and as a horseplayer you are completely in the dark of which horse will pay more if you have multiple horses in the final leg.

If a big bettor is alive to the favorite and the 2nd choice is uncovered and some other horse who has a live ticket gets late scratched, the big bettor can make a large win bet on the 2nd choice and make that horse the favorite so the scratched ticket won't end up on his live runner.

Of course, if they don't show you who is live, there's no way you will ever know.

Another reason they need to show the probables is because lets say you're alive for the pool, you want to know that so you can bet some 'savers' on the race. Of course, if you don't know, there's no way to 'hedge' out.

[davew]

so if you have the only 3 live horses in last race because a couple long shots earlier, if one of these gets scratched it is transferred to post time favorite? which you now have twice?

[sammy the sage]

perhaps the track "helped" w/getting to THE final favorite...nah they wouldn't do that, would they.....

[Phantombridgejumpe]

That is correct, you could beat yourself out of money.

My solution on the dime bets, if your horse scratches you lose.
I'm sure the board would love that...

You can't have back up selections for a bet on this type.

[KingChas]

Here's the scoop;
http://www.drf.com/news/andrew-beyer-worst-bad-beat-story-all-time

[Stillriledup]

Here's the scoop;
http://www.drf.com/news/andrew-beyer-worst-bad-beat-story-all-time

Thought they were going to talk about the pick 6 bettor who got robbed of a 200k+ pool shot at Del Mar the other day. :D

[bdownes]

I am trying to recall what Beulah Park did when they had the Fortune 6 with the one winning ticket getting the jackpot payout. Very similar bets. A scratched horse resulted in refunds and not the betting favorite therefore eliminating that nasty instance. But, Ohio would not allow the track to post the probable payouts before the race.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

I wondered where Beyer was - he hadn't published anything since Preakness week. Glad to see he's still alive.

What a brutal beat, indeed. Based on this quote, the ticket holder thinks the Drexel boys are at it again:

"I don’t believe that anybody would have bought a ticket at 8 in the morning and singled the 5 horse," Appell said. "This is so typical of the industry. It’s not policed. I’ve been playing the horses since grade school, but I think I’m done. This is no fun."

Can't say as I blame him, though the same could be said of the hapless creature that won the second leg that day - I imagine those guys wheeled that race. Good article. Rule changes needed, for sure. Maybe a very small consolation payoff for late scratches for tickets that have four other winners. Two scratches, and you lose.

As a side note, I don't buy into Beyer's argument about the 62.5 takeout - that assumes your winning pick 5 wager does not take down the whole pool. I would agree that it's not designed for serious money, but to me that's a good thing - keep the syndicates and other player pools with deep pockets out of it, and give us "telephone number" players a fighting chance.... :)

[Stillriledup]

I wondered where Beyer was - he hadn't published anything since Preakness week. Glad to see he's still alive.

What a brutal beat, indeed. Based on this quote, the ticket holder thinks the Drexel boys are at it again:

"I don’t believe that anybody would have bought a ticket at 8 in the morning and singled the 5 horse," Appell said. "This is so typical of the industry. It’s not policed. I’ve been playing the horses since grade school, but I think I’m done. This is no fun."

Can't say as I blame him, though the same could be said of the hapless creature that won the second leg that day - I imagine those guys wheeled that race. Good article. Rule changes needed, for sure. Maybe a very small consolation payoff for late scratches for tickets that have four other winners. Two scratches, and you lose.

As a side note, I don't buy into Beyer's argument about the 62.5 takeout - that assumes your winning pick 5 wager does not take down the whole pool. I would agree that it's not designed for serious money, but to me that's a good thing - keep the syndicates and other player pools with deep pockets out of it, and give us "telephone number" players a fighting chance.... :)

Any "rule" that gives the track one more day with the carryover still up for grabs is a good thing for them.

I think if i had a beat like this, with the announcer yelling "YOU WON" i might never play horse racing again, i'd probably get out of the sport for good.

[racingfan378]

Any "rule" that gives the track one more day with the carryover still up for grabs is a good thing for them.

I think if i had a beat like this, with the announcer yelling "YOU WON" i might never play horse racing again, i'd probably get out of the sport for good.

It doesnt help that the announcer is also in charge of the mutuels dept.

You can place the blame on whoever, but the mutuel manager at ANY track is in charge of making sure the payouts are correct once the will pays spit out of the tote printer once the previous race goes official, especially when something this big is on the line

I love the comments on DRF.COM about "conspiracy" and "scam"

Shows you how cheap the company is having a guy do two jobs, now this major mistake and probably won't even get a slap on the wrist for screwing up

I've seen track employees fired for doing less

According to one of the ticket holders (via Andy's article), he is done playing the races, something he has loved since grade school. It's bad enough we try to beat this game with suspect trainers, jocks, bad speed figs, races timed wrong, etc and now this!?

LaD should be ashamed of themselves and the person in charge should have to answer to the LA racing commission on this one

Thank you Andy Beyer for writing this on DRF b/c this needed to be out on the national scale and not just a web board!

[Stillriledup]

It doesnt help that the announcer is also in charge of the mutuels dept.

You can place the blame on whoever, but the mutuel manager at ANY track is in charge of making sure the payouts are correct once the will pays spit out of the tote printer once the previous race goes official, especially when something this big is on the line

I love the comments on DRF.COM about "conspiracy" and "scam"

I will say I am forever done betting LaD again if this is the kind of mistakes they are allowed to make and the employee(s) responsible are allowed to keep their jobs

According to one of the ticket holders (via Andy's article), he is done playing the races, something he has loved since grade school. It's bad enough we try to beat this game with suspect trainers, jocks, bad speed figs, races timed wrong, etc and now this!?

LaD should be ashamed of themselves and the person in charge should have to answer to the LA racing commission on this one

Thank you Andy Beyer for writing this on DRF b/c this needed to be out on the national scale and not just a web board!

Maybe announcers should refrain from talking about "gambling" in their calls? They need to stick to horse racing and leave the gambling to the 'experts'.

[PaceAdvantage]

Isn't this more of a problem with the scratch rules in Louisiana and the tote company, rather than with Travis? I don't see why Travis should be taking heat here.

Those who are calling for him to be punished are extremely short sighted. There are much bigger problems with this case than him making incorrect proclamations in his race call, especially when those proclamations were based on the best information that he had available to him at the time.

In my mind, he did nothing wrong.

[jeebus1083]

Your reading comprehension is at a second-grade level racingfan378. Travis explained (and may I add that he was CLEAR) that because of the early scratch, there was NO WAY to know who the post time favorite was going to be, and therefore, the payout at that point in time WAS correct. Unfortunately for those bettors, their horse who was in for all the marbles, ended up the post time favorite, and with the scratched horse moving to this horse by rule, the unique ticket got counterfeited. Not Travis's fault, and not LaD's fault.

It doesnt help that the announcer is also in charge of the mutuels dept.

You can place the blame on whoever, but the mutuel manager at ANY track is in charge of making sure the payouts are correct once the will pays spit out of the tote printer once the previous race goes official, especially when something this big is on the line

I love the comments on DRF.COM about "conspiracy" and "scam"

Shows you how cheap the company is having a guy do two jobs, now this major mistake and probably won't even get a slap on the wrist for screwing up

I've seen track employees fired for doing less

According to one of the ticket holders (via Andy's article), he is done playing the races, something he has loved since grade school. It's bad enough we try to beat this game with suspect trainers, jocks, bad speed figs, races timed wrong, etc and now this!?

LaD should be ashamed of themselves and the person in charge should have to answer to the LA racing commission on this one

Thank you Andy Beyer for writing this on DRF b/c this needed to be out on the national scale and not just a web board!

[NTamm1215]

Isn't this more of a problem with the scratch rules in Louisiana and the tote company, rather than with Travis? I don't see why Travis should be taking heat here.

Those who are calling for him to be punished are extremely short sighted. There are much bigger problems with this case than him making incorrect proclamations in his race call, especially when those proclamations were based on the best information that he had available to him at the time.

In my mind, he did nothing wrong.

He shouldn't and only is because the person in question has an axe to grind and never misses an opportunity to take a shot at Travis. "Racingfan3678" probably doesn't understand that almost all announcers have some level of double duty at racetracks across the country, mostly because racetracks refuse to pay someone JUST to call races.

Travis should actually be commended for trusting the tote company, who put out accurate info. He should also be commended for serving as a PR rep when contacted by Beyer.

No one is willing to acknowledge that while this story absolutely sucks for those that thought they had the only ticket, there was nothing inappropriate that occurred. It's easier to assume that something under-handed was done and that these guys were "screwed."

It was the perfect storm of bad events for La Downs.

[NTamm1215]

And for those worried that this has soured those affected from wagering moving forward, this quote was in the Paulick Report today:

Kennedy said the experience has soured him on Louisiana Downs and its owner, Harrahs, but not on betting the races in general. In fact, he played a Pick 4 at Saratoga Monday, and it hit for $1,500. “It’s like, I got to hit that 400 times to make up for what they just cost me,” he said. “I’m trying to grin and bear it, but it’s a life-changing score. That’s what I’m playing for, a life-changing score. That’s what we’re all playing for, I think.”

[PaceAdvantage]

He shouldn't and only is because the person in question has an axe to grind and never misses an opportunity to take a shot at Travis. I wasn't aware of this until today...the Internet is indeed a sad place at times when stuff like this occurs...

[thaskalos]

Here's the scoop;
http://www.drf.com/news/andrew-beyer-worst-bad-beat-story-all-time

Beyer should have mentioned how much that other ticket which was purchased at 8 AM at Arlington Park was bought for.

It would have been good to know...

[JustRalph]

Beyer should have mentioned how much that other ticket which was purchased at 8 AM at Arlington Park was bought for.

It would have been good to know...

I want to know who bought it at 8a.m. Etc. total bullshit in my opine.

If LAD cared a damn about saving face in this situation they would find the person and publish the circumstances, good or bad. They don't have to ID the person, but come on?

Btw, I think the takeout argument Beyer makes was covered here a while back

This stinks ..........

[Stillriledup]

:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

Vic Lives! You know, its ok for you to post now that Hollywood is closed up shop for the summer, don't be a stranger!

[Stillriledup]

It stinks to high heaven, but you know what? Nobody cares and nobody will do a darn thing about it. It will just be swept under the rug like everything else in racing is. Dont ask don't tell, don't worry, the betting pools are as safe as fort knox, the greatest hackers in the world couldnt ever get in, nothing to see, keep moving.

[Jeff P]

This has potential disaster written all over it.

When live to a nice paying multi race exotic, a lot of players will make hedge bets based on the published will pay info.

Imagine for a second the following scenario:

Upon seeing erroneous will pay info indicating the player is in line to collect $488k if a horse at 2/1 or 8/5 wins the race - he decides to hedge bet $20k or so on the other runners - in varying amounts - in an attempt to guarantee a himself a profit for the sequence should his 2/1 or 8/5 shot fail to win.

Imagine what he feels like now when his 8/5 horse wins and he subsequently discovers that instead of netting $468k ($488k less $20k in hedge bets) he nets out at minus $9k ($11k collected less $20k in hedge bets.)

As a programmer it's obvious to me what happened here. Whoever did the programming that generates the published will pay info for this bet didn't envision all of the possible cases - and therefore left a gaping hole in the logic of the program that generates the will pay info. (It reminds me of the Sci Games programming at California simo outlets a few years ago where the number 20 was omitted from the program generating quick picks for the Kentucky Derby - and Big Brown won the race as #20.)

This needs to be fixed immediately. Because there WILL BE A NEXT TIME.

Publishing will pay info that isn't accurate is simply unacceptable from an integrity of the game standpoint.



-jp

.

[NTamm1215]

This has potential disaster written all over it.

When live to a nice paying multi race exotic, a lot of players will make hedge bets based on the published will pay info.

Imagine for a second the following scenario:

Upon seeing erroneous will pay info indicating the player is in line to collect $488k if a horse at 2/1 or 8/5 wins the race - he decides to hedge bet $20k or so on the other runners - in varying amounts - in an attempt to guarantee a himself a profit for the sequence should his 2/1 or 8/5 shot fail to win.

Imagine what he feels like now when his 8/5 horse wins and he subsequently discovers that instead of netting $468k ($488k less $20k in hedge bets) he nets out at minus $9k ($11k collected less $20k in hedge bets.)

As a programmer it's obvious to me what happened here. Whoever did the programming that generates the published will pay info for this bet didn't envision all of the possible cases - and therefore left a gaping hole in the logic of the program that generates the will pay info. (It reminds me of the Sci Games programming at California simo outlets a few years ago where the number 20 was omitted from program generating quick picks for the Kentucky Derby - and Big Brown won the race as #20.)

This needs to be fixed immediately. Because there WILL BE A NEXT TIME.

Publishing will pay info that isn't accurate is simply unacceptable from an integrity of the game standpoint.



-jp

.

You are aware that when the will-pay info was posted, the 11 was the favorite, right? The 1 eventually went off the favorite.

The will-pay info that has been referred to as erroneous was simply not erroneous. It was accurate, it was perhaps incomplete or assumed an erroneous event occurring.

[Stillriledup]

This has potential disaster written all over it.

When live to a nice paying multi race exotic, a lot of players will make hedge bets based on the published will pay info.

Imagine for a second the following scenario:

Upon seeing erroneous will pay info indicating the player is in line to collect $488k if a horse at 2/1 or 8/5 wins the race - he decides to hedge bet $20k or so on the other runners - in varying amounts - in an attempt to guarantee a himself a profit for the sequence should his 2/1 or 8/5 shot fail to win.

Imagine what he feels like now when his 8/5 horse wins and he subsequently discovers that instead of netting $468k ($488k less $20k in hedge bets) he nets out at minus $9k ($11k collected less $20k in hedge bets.)

As a programmer it's obvious to me what happened here. Whoever did the programming that generates the published will pay info for this bet didn't envision all of the possible cases - and therefore left a gaping hole in the logic of the program that generates the will pay info. (It reminds me of the Sci Games programming at California simo outlets a few years ago where the number 20 was omitted from program generating quick picks for the Kentucky Derby - and Big Brown won the race as #20.)

This needs to be fixed immediately. Because there WILL BE A NEXT TIME.

Publishing will pay info that isn't accurate is simply unacceptable from an integrity of the game standpoint.



-jp

.

I notice in NY when there is a late scratch in the final race of the day, the will pays for the pick 4 and pick 6 seem to indicate the 'updated' prices should the favorite win.

[Stillriledup]

You are aware that when the will-pay info was posted, the 11 was the favorite, right? The 1 eventually went off the favorite.

The will-pay info that has been referred to as erroneous was simply not erroneous. It was accurate, it was perhaps incomplete or assumed an erroneous event occurring.

Wouldnt tote know that there was 1 ticket alive to the scratched horse?

[Jeff P]

You are aware that when the will-pay info was posted, the 11 was the favorite, right? The 1 eventually went off the favorite.

The will-pay info that has been referred to as erroneous was simply not erroneous. It was accurate, it was perhaps incomplete or assumed an erroneous event occurring.I'm extremely aware of that.

I'm also aware that had the programmers envisioned this type of case they could have done their programming in such a way as to reflect that possibility in the will pay info.

Maybe a will pay report for this bet that looks something like this:

Pg IF NOT POST TIME FAV IF POST TIME FAV-
No Will Pay Tickets Will Pay Tickets
-- -------- ------- -------- -------
1A $488,000 1 $11,800 2*
2 $6000 4 $4,500 5*

*Number of tickets for scratched runners to be
transfered to the post time favorite: 1

I realize stuff like this takes some extra work... but imagine if some extra forethought and effort had gone into this.


-jp

.

[Jeff P]

Wouldnt tote know that there was 1 ticket alive to the scratched horse?That piece of info is absolutely available in the tote data. It just wasn't reflected in the will pay report.


-jp

.

[cj]

As a side note, I don't buy into Beyer's argument about the 62.5 takeout - that assumes your winning pick 5 wager does not take down the whole pool.

He specified for all those except anyone taking down the whole pool.

[cj]

Your reading comprehension is at a second-grade level racingfan378. Travis explained (and may I add that he was CLEAR) that because of the early scratch, there was NO WAY to know who the post time favorite was going to be, and therefore, the payout at that point in time WAS correct. Unfortunately for those bettors, their horse who was in for all the marbles, ended up the post time favorite, and with the scratched horse moving to this horse by rule, the unique ticket got counterfeited. Not Travis's fault, and not LaD's fault.

First off, no need for the personal insults.

Second, it is LaD's fault, whether they want to admit it or not. They are the ones putting on the bet, so they should be aware of every possible situation. Somebody decided to show those payoffs without taking into account the possibility of a scratched horse being put on the favorite (something which is FAR from rare) and that horse being the one the could sweep the pool. That is certainly foreseeable as well. I mean, it happened rather quickly, right?

[cj]

You are aware that when the will-pay info was posted, the 11 was the favorite, right? The 1 eventually went off the favorite.

The will-pay info that has been referred to as erroneous was simply not erroneous. It was accurate, it was perhaps incomplete or assumed an erroneous event occurring.

If something is incomplete, I have a hard time calling it accurate. I don't think anything underhanded took place, but it is typical of racetrack management to not even understand all the possibilities of bets they are conducting. Nothing gets thought all the way through until something bad happens.

EDIT: I now see Jeff covered most of this. Certainly not Travis' fault by any stretch, but his is just more negative publicity for a sport that hardly needs any more.

[TravisVOX]

If something is incomplete, I have a hard time calling it accurate. I don't think anything underhanded took place, but it is typical of racetrack management to not even understand all the possibilities of bets they are conducting. Nothing gets thought all the way through until something bad happens.

EDIT: I now see Jeff covered most of this. Certainly not Travis' fault by any stretch, but his is just more negative publicity for a sport that hardly needs any more.

If it's LAD's fault, then it's my fault...

As a racetrack, we do not execute any calculating, formulating or forecasting of payoffs. The tote companies do. In this case, the information the tote company sent us was correct info.

This particular scenario is no different than a Pick 4 when there is a scratch on the track. All tickets using the scratched horse get moved to the post time favorite. As a result, all probable payoffs posted after the prior race was made official, and sent to all outlets/ADW's etc., are now extinct. The obvious difference here is that instead of a $466 probable getting knocked down to a $454 probable, it involved a large Jackpot.

Furthermore, in my booth, I can bring-up a variety of reports detailing the wagering activity for the day. Post times, probables, on-track handle, off-track handle etc. Among these reports is a report detailing the status of the Pick 5. I personally double checked the probables in my reports to what was sent out to the TV signal and ADWs... they all matched. Again, they were accurate at the given time.

Thus no one really did anything wrong. There was no false information out there. At the time, #11 was the favorite and his probable reflected the ticket which was waiting for the favorite. Ultimately, the favorite was #1 and it discounted the Jackpot scenario.

Do I wish a rat chewed-up the wire before the probables were cycled? Without a doubt. Do I wish I would have not mentioned the Jackpot in my call? For sure. I won't do it again. Now, are there some takeaways here? Absolutely. Does Jeff provide some plausible alternatives for sharing this information? You bet.

Finally, jeebs is just tossing a remark toward my #1 fan who has thrown plenty of insults himself my way over the years on this site.

[cordep17]

Yesterday the will pays for LaD claim that the :1: as well as three other horses was paying the whole pot. Even the announcer in the race call said the pool was hit when the #1 won the race;)

Later on....Prices posted and it only paid $11k! My friend told me that TWO people hit it and not that one unique ticket:eek:

If I am playing, I am thinking I am collecting $488k due to the will pays and yet the result said something different? that's simply not right:mad:

I don't know enough about racing laws, but couldn't something like that end up in a lawsuit? :confused:

Mistake or not, that isn't right and saying "Whoops my bad" isn't going to fix it:faint:


I keep reading stuff like this, and I don't get it.

I pretty much play win bets, exactas, and trifectas, so Ive never really delved into this part of the game

How can someone think they are getting paid 500k and only get 11?
Even if there was a ticket out there that wasn't accounted for, why aren't they splitting it 250 a piece?

If it isn't a solo winner, does a certain amount of money stick back?

[ronsmac]

I still can't get over the bet being made at 810 am, has everything right up to a 30-1 shot in the last leg that just happens to get scratched, gets the fav in the last and blows the other guys 488k. I guess anything is possible, but doesn't this come off as quite suspicious? I remember how they were defending the pick 6 scandal for close to a week, saying nothing out of the ordinary here.

[miller17]

That piece of info is absolutely available in the tote data. It just wasn't reflected in the will pay report.


-jp

. The Mutuel Mgr should be in the mutuel office, not on the roof calling races.

[PaceAdvantage]

Where does one bet at 8:21am at Arlington? Do they have early bird betting for the backstretch?

I can't imagine the host track is taking bets at those times...does Arlington hold onto these bets and batch them to the host tracks when they open?

Maybe someone can clue me into these super-duper early bets...never have done them myself...

[TravisVOX]

Where does one bet at 8:21am at Arlington? Do they have early bird betting for the backstretch?

I can't imagine the host track is taking bets at those times...does Arlington hold onto these bets and batch them to the host tracks when they open?

Maybe someone can clue me into these super-duper early bets...never have done them myself...

I know on my ADW I can bet once they open up the wagering for any race that day. It's no different than betting at 1pm for a race at 9pm or betting at 8am for a race at 4pm.

[TravisVOX]

The Mutuel Mgr should be in the mutuel office, not on the roof calling races.

Why does it matter where I am? I have all the same data and equipment on the 6th floor as they do on the 2nd?

[TravisVOX]

I keep reading stuff like this, and I don't get it.

I pretty much play win bets, exactas, and trifectas, so Ive never really delved into this part of the game

How can someone think they are getting paid 500k and only get 11?
Even if there was a ticket out there that wasn't accounted for, why aren't they splitting it 250 a piece?

If it isn't a solo winner, does a certain amount of money stick back?

This wager is a Jackpot-style wager. It's just like the Rainbow 6, Black Gold 5, the Jersey Shore 6 etc. In order to take down the entire Jackpot, you have to have the one and only winning ticket. If there are more than one winning wagers in the pool, the Jackpot carryover comes into play.

[cj]

If it's LAD's fault, then it's my fault...

As a racetrack, we do not execute any calculating, formulating or forecasting of payoffs. The tote companies do. In this case, the information the tote company sent us was correct info.

While the subcontractor may very well be at fault, ultimate responsibility lies with the entity that hired them. Agreed?

This particular scenario is no different than a Pick 4 when there is a scratch on the track. All tickets using the scratched horse get moved to the post time favorite. As a result, all probable payoffs posted after the prior race was made official, and sent to all outlets/ADW's etc., are now extinct.

It is different, because in this case the unique nature of the bet makes that a very important piece of information, much more so than a regular P4.


Furthermore, in my booth, I can bring-up a variety of reports detailing the wagering activity for the day. Post times, probables, on-track handle, off-track handle etc. Among these reports is a report detailing the status of the Pick 5. I personally double checked the probables in my reports to what was sent out to the TV signal and ADWs... they all matched. Again, they were accurate at the given time.

No doubt they did match. The problem is the bet was treated like all other bets, when it is nothing like any other bet. This was foreseeable. I'm not suggesting any funny business or that anyone did anything deliberately. We all make mistakes sometimes. But this reactive instead of proactive gets old. I would bet nobody spent 20 minutes thinking about all the possible things that could happen with this bet.

Thus no one really did anything wrong. There was no false information out there. At the time, #11 was the favorite and his probable reflected the ticket which was waiting for the favorite. Ultimately, the favorite was #1 and it discounted the Jackpot scenario.

I agree, nobody did anything wrong. But again, no foresight where there should have been. I have no idea who "should" have thought this through. But somebody should have. Is this really the first time that a horse was scratched in the last leg? Did it not occur to anyone that hey, you know what, those will pays could change if the favorite changes?

Do I wish a rat chewed-up the wire before the probables were cycled? Without a doubt. Do I wish I would have not mentioned the Jackpot in my call? For sure. I won't do it again. Now, are there some takeaways here? Absolutely. Does Jeff provide some plausible alternatives for sharing this information? You bet.

Anyone knocking your call is being silly. I don't think the track announcer needs to know the nuances of serial bets. Nothing wrong with trusting the info you were given. I will say not posting probables is a terrible response. The correct response is to post them accurately with all possible scenarios, as Jeff proposed. This was not that far fetched of a scenario, and punishing the bettor by not passing on any and all relevant info is a bad solution.

Finally, jeebs is just tossing a remark toward my #1 fan who has thrown plenty of insults himself my way over the years on this site.

I can assure you if I see them from him, they'll be gone and reported to PA.

[cj]

The Mutuel Mgr should be in the mutuel office, not on the roof calling races.

Why? Are you just shooting in the dark, or do you have reasons? The mutuel manager could probably work from home if setup properly.

[JustRalph]

I still can't get over the bet being made at 810 am, has everything right up to a 30-1 shot in the last leg that just happens to get scratched, gets the fav in the last and blows the other guys 488k. I guess anything is possible, but doesn't this come off as quite suspicious? I remember how they were defending the pick 6 scandal for close to a week, saying nothing out of the ordinary here.

This smells so bad to me. Can anybody tell us where there are windows open at 8 a ? An online ADW is different. I have placed bets at 6 a on twinspires before. But dos Arlington have an ADW ?

Many of us have called for a non compliant press in this game. This is a scenario where real reporters would have sniffed this out by now

[TravisVOX]

I hear you, CJ. A lot of things happened I wish didn't. Is turning off the probables the answer? For now... because making changes to software, as you know, can't happen overnight in today's world. I will definitely bring-up Jeff's concept this week though and see where it goes.

[Grits]

I know that Keeneland has drive thru wagering windows that open early during their meets. Not sure if wagers are accepted for other tracks. Could this be possible at Arlington?

This smells so bad to me. Can anybody tell us where there are windows open at 8 a ? An online ADW is different. I have placed bets at 6 a on twinspires before. But dos Arlington have an ADW ?

Many of us have called for a non compliant press in this game. This is a scenario where real reporters would have sniffed this out by now

[TravisVOX]

This smells so bad to me. Can anybody tell us where there are windows open at 8 a ? An online ADW is different. I have placed bets at 6 a on twinspires before. But dos Arlington have an ADW ?

Many of us have called for a non compliant press in this game. This is a scenario where real reporters would have sniffed this out by now

For example, you can wager at Trackside Arlington at 7am...

http://www.arlingtonpark.com/trackside/locations/arlington-international

At Louisiana Downs, you can wager as soon as we open-up the machines in our building. We open at 10am... but no reason we couldn't turn them on at 8am, or 7am or any time in between.

[ronsmac]

This smells so bad to me. Can anybody tell us where there are windows open at 8 a ? An online ADW is different. I have placed bets at 6 a on twinspires before. But dos Arlington have an ADW ?

Many of us have called for a non compliant press in this game. This is a scenario where real reporters would have sniffed this out by now
Odds of hitting it were allready astronomical, You had to be Nostradomus to predict my horse would scratch and I'd get the hot favorite, but to probably be the only guy in the country who played the bet at 821 am makes it even more implausible. Maybe he's just a lucky guy and I'm overreacting as usual.

[thespaah]

Theory..
This all could be avoided by doing one simple thing. Instead of giving the ticket holder of a late scratch the post time favorite. Assign those ticket holders the morning line favorite...
Reasons? More times than not the ML will be the betting choice in the win pool anyway.
Also, with the lag time between the moments bets are made and the time they hit the tote system and the display, no one really knows which horse will be the favorite until after the race is sometimes as much as half over.
Some of you will protest that you believe you are 'missing out' because the public has chosen an entrant different than that of the track handicapper as the favorite. My response that is 'so what'..Where the money goes into the race pool has no bearing on the running or the outcome of the event. Unless of course they are stuffing the horses saddle pads with cash and adding additional weight.
The other solution is to cut off multi race wagers 5 minutes to post of the first event in the sequence. This way, the will pays are dead on balls accurate and there is no perception of monkey business. NYRA used to do this. PIck 6 wagering was closed with 5 mins to go before the first race in the pick 6 sequence.
Lastly. Keep this up and the various racing jurisdictions may change the rules and simply offer refunds on those wagers where there is a late scratch.
Ok.. Looking for input. Thanks

[cj]

I really don't think there is anything suspect regarding betting early. It can be done, and I'm sure Beyer would have been all over that if there were anything that didn't jive with reality.

[miller17]

Why? Are you just shooting in the dark, or do you have reasons? The mutuel manager could probably work from home if setup properly.
Do other announcers double as the mutuel manager? Other than perhaps working in the racing office in the am, do any of the racecallers who post here have another job as a dept head during the races?

I find it odd that the track announcer is also mutuel manager, and to be clear, I'm not accusing LAD from doing anything wrong, other than perhaps asking a guy to wear too many hats.

[cj]

Theory..
This all could be avoided by doing one simple thing. Instead of giving the ticket holder of a late scratch the post time favorite. Assign those ticket holders the morning line favorite...
Reasons? More times than not the ML will be the betting choice in the win pool anyway.
Also, with the lag time between the moments bets are made and the time they hit the tote system and the display, no one really knows which horse will be the favorite until after the race is sometimes as much as half over.
Some of you will protest that you believe you are 'missing out' because the public has chosen an entrant different than that of the track handicapper as the favorite. My response that is 'so what'..Where the money goes into the race pool has no bearing on the running or the outcome of the event. Unless of course they are stuffing the horses saddle pads with cash and adding additional weight.
The other solution is to cut off multi race wagers 5 minutes to post of the first event in the sequence. This way, the will pays are dead on balls accurate and there is no perception of monkey business. NYRA used to do this. PIck 6 wagering was closed with 5 mins to go before the first race in the pick 6 sequence.
Lastly. Keep this up and the various racing jurisdictions may change the rules and simply offer refunds on those wagers where there is a late scratch.
Ok.. Looking for input. Thanks

Sounds good in theory, but I don't think racetracks want to be in the business of assigning which horse gets the money from scratched horses. And since morning line makers are track employees, that is exactly what they would be doing.

[cordep17]

This wager is a Jackpot (#)-style wager. It's just like the Rainbow 6, Black Gold 5, the Jersey Shore 6 etc. In order to take down the entire Jackpot, you have to have the one and only winning ticket. If there are more than one winning wagers in the pool, the Jackpot carryover comes into play.

Not all pick 6s and 5s work like this, right? Most of the time, the people with the winning numbers split it after normal takeout, correct? I guess when I start messing around with these, I'll make sure the track I am betting at doesn't work like it does at LaD.

[Grits]

You're a hard working guy, Travis. And you always represent your work professionally. All the way back to a long ago message board:)

[TravisVOX]

Not all pick 6s and 5s work like this, right? Most of the time, the people with the winning numbers split it after normal takeout, correct? I guess when I start messing around with these, I'll make sure the track I am betting at doesn't work like it does at LaD.

No... just the "Jackpot" style wagers are like this. It's "sort of" like a progressive slot machine.

[thaskalos]

Odds of hitting it were allready astronomical, You had to be Nostradomus to predict my horse would scratch and I'd get the hot favorite, but to probably be the only guy in the country who played the bet at 821 am makes it even more implausible. Maybe he's just a lucky guy and I'm overreacting as usual.

I am prone to a degree of overreaction too...but it's warranted in this case, IMO.

What size ticket would single an impossible-looking longshot in the last leg of a half-million dollar carryover?

[TravisVOX]

Do other announcers double as the mutuel manager? Other than perhaps working in the racing office in the am, do any of the racecallers who post here have another job as a dept head during the races?

I find it odd that the track announcer is also mutuel manager, and to be clear, I'm not accusing LAD from doing anything wrong, other than perhaps asking a guy to wear too many hats.

In today's world, track announcers often take on a variety of rolls whether it be Simulcast Director, Mutuel Manager, Entry Clerk, Racing Secretary, Jock agent etc.

I don't wear hats, though I probably should, since my hair is dying a slow and painful death.

[ElKabong]

For example, you can wager at Trackside Arlington at 7am...

http://www.arlingtonpark.com/trackside/locations/arlington-international

At Louisiana Downs, you can wager as soon as we open-up the machines in our building. We open at 10am... but no reason we couldn't turn them on at 8am, or 7am or any time in between.

First off, Al Stall Jr is the trainer of the winning horse (#1). I think he's at Arlington now, correct? I saw (the LOVELY) Pam Fitzgerald saddle the horse in the paddock before the race. Stall wasn't there

So maybe Al or one of his stable folk placed the bet @ AP after morning workouts? Just a thought.

Even if it wasn't Al, "Stall maiden on turf" has been a long running angle down since his days at Lone Star, which he's long since left. Plus, the horse looked good in the paddock so the #1 was ready to run (no, I didn't bet the winner)

As for you, sir ;) would you please put a bit less pace, and add some enthusiasm, into your announcing of scratches and changes? You reel em off so damn quick nobody can turn the pages fast enough. (and I'm no slow poke)

This isn't a dig, but it's been a source of frustration. Otherwise, you're doing ok with the calling gig!

[cj]

Do other announcers double as the mutuel manager? Other than perhaps working in the racing office in the am, do any of the racecallers who post here have another job as a dept head during the races?

I find it odd that the track announcer is also mutuel manager, and to be clear, I'm not accusing LAD from doing anything wrong, other than perhaps asking a guy to wear too many hats.

Announcing is a tough job, but during an 8/9 hour day how much time is actually spent passing on announcements, calling the races, or studying the horses? Probably not as much as you might think.

I would think if it were too much, Travis wouldn't be doing it. I've never heard of any problems at LAD before. And even though I think this situation was bad, it could have happened at any number of places already. It was just bad luck it happened there first.

[speed]

For wagers like this that need only 1 winning ticket they need to change the scratch rule to a consolation instead of the post time favorite. That way this never ever happens again.

[cj]

I am prone to a degree of overreaction too...but it's warranted in this case, IMO.

What size ticket would single an impossible-looking longshot in the last leg of a half-million dollar carryover?

I read (here?) it was probably a Quick Pick.

But even if not, wouldn't that be exactly the kind of ticket one would play to take down the whole pool? You aren't going to get it singling a favorite.

[JustRalph]

For example, you can wager at Trackside Arlington at 7am...

http://www.arlingtonpark.com/trackside/locations/arlington-international

At Louisiana Downs, you can wager as soon as we open-up the machines in our building. We open at 10am... but no reason we couldn't turn them on at 8am, or 7am or any time in between.

Thanks!

[TravisVOX]

First off, Al Stall Jr is the trainer of the winning horse (#1). I think he's at Arlington now, correct? I saw (the LOVELY) Pam Fitzgerald saddle the horse in the paddock before the race. Stall wasn't there

So maybe Al or one of his stable folk placed the bet @ AP after morning workouts? Just a thought.

Even if it wasn't Al, "Stall maiden on turf" has been a long running angle down since his days at Lone Star, which he's long since left. Plus, the horse looked good in the paddock so the #1 was ready to run (no, I didn't bet the winner)

As for you, sir ;) would you please put a bit less pace, and add some enthusiasm, into your announcing of scratches and changes? You reel em off so damn quick nobody can turn the pages fast enough. (and I'm no slow poke)

This isn't a dig, but it's been a source of frustration. Otherwise, you're doing ok with the calling gig!

Anyone who has put money into the pools at LAD knows that for Al Stall to NOT go off the favorite, means there is some salty competition lining-up.

I think you've mentioned my changes speed before... I will (try to) slow down. It's actually heartening to know someone actually is listening at that time of day!

[ElKabong]

I am prone to a degree of overreaction too...but it's warranted in this case, IMO.

What size ticket would single an impossible-looking longshot in the last leg of a half-million dollar carryover?

If you trained the horse and are at Arlington Park with your "A Team", have someone place the bet for you (or bet it yourself). The ticket size could be as low as $200 if you singled Tsavo

The horse that I wouldn't have dreamed of putting on a ticket was the $50 horse, but that was a paceless race. Shit happens when no horses like a lead in cheap races....Otherwise the other 4 winners figured.

[ElKabong]

Anyone who has put money into the pools at LAD knows that for Al Stall to NOT go off the favorite, means there is some salty competition lining-up.

VERY true!

I think you've mentioned my changes speed before... I will (try to) slow down. It's actually heartening to know someone actually is listening at that time of day!

Much appreciated!


.

[thaskalos]

If you trained the horse and are at Arlington Park with your "A Team", have someone place the bet for you (or bet it yourself). The ticket size could be as low as $200 if you singled Tsavo

The horse that I wouldn't have dreamed of putting on a ticket was the $50 horse, but that was a paceless race. Shit happens when no horses like a lead in cheap races....Otherwise the other 4 winners figured.

I am not talking about the ticket that included Tsavo; I am talking about the second winning ticket at Arlington...whose only selection in the last leg was the impossible-looking horse that was scratched, thus making Tsavo the ticket's back-up selection.

I wonder how much THAT ticket cost to buy...and how anyone could bet any reasonable amount of money on a ticket that hinged on a sole 40-1 shot in the final race of a half-million dollar pool.

[thaskalos]

I read (here?) it was probably a Quick Pick.

But even if not, wouldn't that be exactly the kind of ticket one would play to take down the whole pool? You aren't going to get it singling a favorite.

I understand that, Cj...but the mysterious second ticket did not focus exclusively on longshots. It also selected the 6-1, the 5-2, and the 3-1 winners of the prior legs.

Why would a person choose to single the longshot in the last leg of a respectable investment, when he had already used short-priced horses in the prior legs...and what are we to assume if it is discovered that the $50 winner of the second leg was also a "single"?

Do things like this really happen in real life?

[ElKabong]

I am not talking about the ticket that included Tsavo; I am talking about the second winning ticket at Arlington...whose only selection in the last leg was the impossible-looking horse that was scratched, thus making Tsavo the ticket's back-up selection.

I wonder how much THAT ticket cost to buy...and how anyone could bet any reasonable amount of money on a ticket that hinged on a sole 40-1 shot in the final race of a half-million dollar pool.

OK, now I see....Sorry, I wasn't aware they bet the #5 (just read the Beyer write up)

I'm with you, this doesn't seem logical at all. I'm looking at the PP. that was an unbetable horse from any angle. Weird stuff does happen I guess, this qualifies

[ElKabong]

I understand that, Cj...but the mysterious second ticket did not focus exclusively on longshots. It also selected the 6-1, the 5-2, and the 3-1 winners of the prior legs.

Why would a person choose to single the longshot in the last leg of a respectable investment, when he had already used short-priced horses in the prior legs...and what are we to assume if it is discovered that the $50 winner of the second leg was also a "single"?

Do things like this really happen in real life?

#5 horse, Bad Aas Gavin.....

Worst jockey on the grounds (imo)
Denise Schmidt, trainer (nice lady), 1 for 25 with FTS per BRIS....0 FOR 4 turf debut.
Slowest gate work on 6/30.

How does someone single this horse? And, with an Al Stall and a Joey Foster contender running?

[Jeff P]

I hear you, CJ. A lot of things happened I wish didn't. Is turning off the probables the answer? For now... because making changes to software, as you know, can't happen overnight in today's world. I will definitely bring-up Jeff's concept this week though and see where it goes.

Travis,

I really do appreciate your openness and candor in this thread. :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Just to make it easier for you to explain it to the higher ups, the concept I was shooting for is a two column report.

The first (left hand side) column shows the will pays and number of live tickets for each runner if and only if that runner does NOT become the official post time favorite.

The second (right hand side) column shows the will pays and number of live tickets for each runner if and only if that runner DOES become the official post time favorite.

The following layout might be a little more intuitive than the first attempt I posted:

JACKPOT PICK 5 WILL PAYS*******************************


*1 SCRATCHED RUNNER IN THIS THE FINAL LEG REPRESENTING
1 ADDITIONAL LIVE TICKET WILL BE TRANSFERRED TO THE
OFFICIAL POST TIME FAVORITE AT THE CLOSE OF BETTING.

IN ORDER TO WIN THE JACKPOT THE HORSE THAT WINS THE
FINAL LEG FOR YOU MUST HAVE ONLY 1 LIVE TICKET ON IT
AND YOU MUST BE THE HOLDER OF THAT 1 LIVE TICKET.


WILL PAY IF RUNNER IS WILL PAY IF RUNNER IS
NOT MADE THE OFFICIAL MADE THE OFFICIAL
POST TIME FAVORITE POST TIME FAVORITE


PgNo AMOUNT LIVE TICKETS AMOUNT LIVE TICKETS
---- -------- ------------ -------- ------------
1A $488,000 1 $11,800 2*
2 $X,XXX 4 $X,XXX 5*
3 $X,XXX 6 $X,XXX 7*
4 $X,XXX 8 $X,XXX 9*
5 $X,XXX 2 $X,XXX 3*
6 $X,XXX 4 $X,XXX 5*
7 $X,XXX 5 $X,XXX 6*
8 $X,XXX 13 $X,XXX 14*
9 $X,XXX 12 $X,XXX 13*




-jp

.

[Jeff P]

I understand that, Cj...but the mysterious second ticket did not focus exclusively on longshots. It also selected the 6-1, the 5-2, and the 3-1 winners of the prior legs.

Why would a person choose to single the longshot in the last leg of a respectable investment, when he had already used short-priced horses in the prior legs...and what are we to assume if it is discovered that the $50 winner of the second leg was also a "single"?

Do things like this really happen in real life?

Playing devil's advocate here...

Is it possible the player had some inside info? Or knew ahead of time the horse was likely to scratch out?

If the latter, and you don't have a strong opinion about the last leg, or if the last leg is confusing the crap out of you - you don't really have to handicap that race in any appreciable depth. If you know the horse you singled is going to scratch out you are in effect letting the crowd handicap the last leg for you. (And maybe you think you can nail a couple of live longshots en route to that last leg and be the only ticket holder on the eventual post time favorite.)


-jp

.

[davew]

I understand that, Cj...but the mysterious second ticket did not focus exclusively on longshots. It also selected the 6-1, the 5-2, and the 3-1 winners of the prior legs.

Why would a person choose to single the longshot in the last leg of a respectable investment, when he had already used short-priced horses in the prior legs...and what are we to assume if it is discovered that the $50 winner of the second leg was also a "single"?

Do things like this really happen in real life?

This has become a lottery style bet - people bet their numbers, birthdays, anniversarys, and sometimes let the machine choose for them with quick picks.

[thaskalos]

This has become a lottery style bet - people bet their numbers, birthdays, anniversarys, and sometimes let the machine choose for them with quick picks.

Yes...people might bet birthdays and anniversaries when they only bet a few bucks...but you can be sure that they don't rely on birthdays and anniversaries when they invest hundreds of dollars on these tickets.

[speed]

Perhaps the singled horse in the final leg was punched mistakenly. It happens.

[Track Phantom]

Theory..
This all could be avoided by doing one simple thing. Instead of giving the ticket holder of a late scratch the post time favorite. Assign those ticket holders the morning line favorite...
Reasons? More times than not the ML will be the betting choice in the win pool anyway.
Also, with the lag time between the moments bets are made and the time they hit the tote system and the display, no one really knows which horse will be the favorite until after the race is sometimes as much as half over.
Some of you will protest that you believe you are 'missing out' because the public has chosen an entrant different than that of the track handicapper as the favorite. My response that is 'so what'..Where the money goes into the race pool has no bearing on the running or the outcome of the event. Unless of course they are stuffing the horses saddle pads with cash and adding additional weight.
The other solution is to cut off multi race wagers 5 minutes to post of the first event in the sequence. This way, the will pays are dead on balls accurate and there is no perception of monkey business. NYRA used to do this. PIck 6 wagering was closed with 5 mins to go before the first race in the pick 6 sequence.
Lastly. Keep this up and the various racing jurisdictions may change the rules and simply offer refunds on those wagers where there is a late scratch.
Ok.. Looking for input. Thanks

This should happen at all tracks for every pool starting today. Yes, it will piss people off that get shut out but how is that different then getting shut out when they break from the gate? Have a timer that clocks down and shut off the pools a few minutes to actually breaking from the gate.

In today's world, this is a critical safeguard. Failure to do this is ridiculous.

[Stillriledup]

This should happen at all tracks for every pool starting today. Yes, it will piss people off that get shut out but how is that different then getting shut out when they break from the gate? Have a timer that clocks down and shut off the pools a few minutes to actually breaking from the gate.

In today's world, this is a critical safeguard. Failure to do this is ridiculous.

What's the difference if the pools shut off 5 MTP or post time, its still a blind pool and the probables are not ever known until the last leg is running.

[BetHorses!]

I would make these unique wagers like Vegas futures. Any horse scratches, tough luck. No post time fav and no refunds

[lamboguy]

Playing devil's advocate here...

Is it possible the player had some inside info? Or knew ahead of time the horse was likely to scratch out?

If the latter, and you don't have a strong opinion about the last leg, or if the last leg is confusing the crap out of you - you don't really have to handicap that race in any appreciable depth. If you know the horse you singled is going to scratch out you are in effect letting the crowd handicap the last leg for you. (And maybe you think you can nail a couple of live longshots en route to that last leg and be the only ticket holder on the eventual post time favorite.)


-jp

.when nevada was not pari mutuel, if you bet a daily double and the first have LOSES and the second half scratched you would get a refund. if the first half won and the second half scratched there was no consolation, just a refund.

[1st time lasix]

On this topic----last week a late surface change at Monmouth....in the pick six and pick five all the players got the "all" button in that race...which is fine. That makes sense. But in my pick four {even though it was the second leg}---I didn't!:bang: Caught a nice bomb in the first leg but all of my four scratched turf selections in that 2nd leg were moved to the very vulnerable post time favorite in the mud. Of course he didn't win. Boy was i cranky! Good for the goose...but not the gander?

[Track Phantom]

when nevada was not pari mutuel, if you bet a daily double and the first have LOSES and the second half scratched you would get a refund. if the first half won and the second half scratched there was no consolation, just a refund.

Bad idea. Imagine being 4 for 4 in this pick 5 (or 5 for 5 in the GP pick 6) and have the 1-9 shot in the last leg for the whole pool. During the sequence, maybe you hedged and bet runners you didn't have. Then you get to the last leg, you have the only ticket alive and the 1-9 shot is scratched and you get a refund? People would be complaining that the track was somehow manipulating the scratch in the last leg to keep the pool alive.

Very simple solution....show the will-pays side by side. 1st payoff is if the runner is NOT favored at post, 2nd will-pays show the runner if it IS favored at post.

Done.

[Jeff P]

when nevada was not pari mutuel, if you bet a daily double and the first have LOSES and the second half scratched you would get a refund. if the first half won and the second half scratched there was no consolation, just a refund.

When a betting interest scratches out of its leg of a multi-race race bet (double, pick3, pick4, pick5, etc.) - given a choice of the following options in the rules:

A. The eventual post time favorite is substituted for the scratched runner.

B. A refund is issued for all combinations involving the scratched runner.

Speaking strictly for myself, if I had just $48.00 in my wallet (or account) and were faced with a choice between betting that $48.00 on a pick-x at TrackA (where the rules in place called for Option A) or TrackB (where the rules in place called for Option B) - I would ignore TrackA and bet my money into the pools at TrackB every single time.

Of course when you are dealing with a jackpot bet like the one being discussed in this thread: The track has a financial interest in creating carryovers - and rules that call for Option B (while arguably more player friendly) get in the way of that.

Very simple solution....show the will-pays side by side. 1st payoff is if the runner is NOT favored at post, 2nd will-pays show the runner if it IS favored at post.

Done.Agree.


-jp

.

[Stillriledup]

When a betting interest scratches out of its leg of a multi-race race bet (double, pick3, pick4, pick5, etc.) - given a choice of the following options in the rules:

A. The eventual post time favorite is substituted for the scratched runner.

B. A refund is issued for all combinations involving the scratched runner.

Speaking strictly for myself, if I had just $48.00 in my wallet (or account) and were faced with a choice between betting that $48.00 on a pick-x at TrackA (where the rules in place called for Option A) or TrackB (where the rules in place called for Option B) - I would ignore TrackA and bet my money into the pools at TrackB every single time.

Of course when you are dealing with a jackpot bet like the one being discussed in this thread: The track has a financial interest in creating carryovers - and rules that call for Option B (while arguably more player friendly) get in the way of that.

Agree.


-jp

.

What about instead of putting a horizontal bet on the post time fave in the win pool, how about putting him on the post time favorite in that particular pool? This way, they'll know in advance who is the favorite and can announce this to the public so they know who they have without having to worry about the win pool?

[Jeff P]

What about instead of putting a horizontal bet on the post time fave in the win pool, how about putting him on the post time favorite in that particular pool? That's a really interesting idea. (The more I think about it the more I like it.)

• It would still be relatively easy for the betting public to understand.
-- What? Your runner is scratched out of leg 2? You get the betting favorite based on the money bet into leg 2 of the pool you bet into instead of the scratched runner. (And no need to wait for the win pool before knowing how many live tickets there are on each runner.)

• It would negate the need for a side by side (favorite vs. non favorite) will pays report for lone jackpot bets.

• Tracks and horsemen would prefer it over issuing refunds on combos involving scratched runners. In the case of bets like the one being discussed in this thread, such a rule wouldn't get in the way of creating carryovers.

• Had such a rule been in place, the incident being discussed in this thread never would have happened. The number of live tickets for each runner would have been etched in stone before the gate opened for the final leg - and the will pay amounts (jackpot or no jackpot) would have been known ahead of time too because the horse being used as the favorite would not have been subject to change.

• From an integrity of the game standpoint, such a rule also cuts down on some of the shadier things that can happen in the final leg...

Some examples might be:

Provided the jackpot is big enough, players holding potential winning (as in take down the jackpot) tickets in the final leg might conceivably bet enough on a near favorite that benefits them so as to make that runner the post time favorite. Alternately, they might bet enough on runner so as to ensure a different horse (one that benefits them) can not become the post time favorite.

In other words, depending on the situation, under the current rules, players holding potential take down the jackpot tickets can use the win pool to manipulate the outcome of the jackpot bet.

Such a rule would curtail that type of thing and give the game a cleaner appearance from an integrity of the game standpoint.

The more I think about it the more I like it. (Therefore, it's never gonna happen.)


-jp

.

[tanner12oz]

There should never be a time where someone picks a horse but the by way of that horse scratching has another pick selected for him...its unfair to that player and every other player in the pool...the problem is that we have changes happening within a closed pool

[KingChas]

Beyer should have mentioned how much that other ticket which was purchased at 8 AM at Arlington Park was bought for.

It would have been good to know...

Sure would of been nice to know.

But as you know nothing shady has ever happened with these type of bets in the past and of course history does not repeat itself.............. :liar:

[Stillriledup]

That's a really interesting idea. (The more I think about it the more I like it.)

• It would still be relatively easy for the betting public to understand.
-- What? Your runner is scratched out of leg 2? You get the betting favorite based on the money bet into leg 2 of the pool you bet into instead of the scratched runner. (And no need to wait for the win pool before knowing how many live tickets there are on each runner.)

• It would negate the need for a side by side (favorite vs. non favorite) will pays report for lone jackpot bets.

• Tracks and horsemen would prefer it over issuing refunds on combos involving scratched runners. In the case of bets like the one being discussed in this thread, such a rule wouldn't get in the way of creating carryovers.

• Had such a rule been in place, the incident being discussed in this thread never would have happened. The number of live tickets for each runner would have been etched in stone before the gate opened for the final leg - and the will pay amounts (jackpot or no jackpot) would have been known ahead of time too because the horse being used as the favorite would not have been subject to change.

• From an integrity of the game standpoint, such a rule also cuts down on some of the shadier things that can happen in the final leg...

Some examples might be:

Provided the jackpot is big enough, players holding potential winning (as in take down the jackpot) tickets in the final leg might conceivably bet enough on a near favorite that benefits them so as to make that runner the post time favorite. Alternately, they might bet enough on runner so as to ensure a different horse (one that benefits them) can not become the post time favorite.

In other words, depending on the situation, under the current rules, players holding potential take down the jackpot tickets can use the win pool to manipulate the outcome of the jackpot bet.

Such a rule would curtail that type of thing and give the game a cleaner appearance from an integrity of the game standpoint.

The more I think about it the more I like it. (Therefore, it's never gonna happen.)


-jp

.

One more advantage to this method is that a person who is 'early bird betting' (esp in the So Cal pick 6) won't have the ability to single a horse that he knows is going to be scratched and get on the 'fresh' post time favorite. (assuming its a race where the favorite isnt largely predictable in advance) He will get the "stale" favorite. He will be on the horse the public made the favorite before the public got to see warmups,etc.

[cnollfan]

That's a really interesting idea. (The more I think about it the more I like it.)

• It would still be relatively easy for the betting public to understand.
-- What? Your runner is scratched out of leg 2? You get the betting favorite based on the money bet into leg 2 of the pool you bet into instead of the scratched runner. (And no need to wait for the win pool before knowing how many live tickets there are on each runner.)

• It would negate the need for a side by side (favorite vs. non favorite) will pays report for lone jackpot bets.

• Tracks and horsemen would prefer it over issuing refunds on combos involving scratched runners. In the case of bets like the one being discussed in this thread, such a rule wouldn't get in the way of creating carryovers.

• Had such a rule been in place, the incident being discussed in this thread never would have happened. The number of live tickets for each runner would have been etched in stone before the gate opened for the final leg - and the will pay amounts (jackpot or no jackpot) would have been known ahead of time too because the horse being used as the favorite would not have been subject to change.

• From an integrity of the game standpoint, such a rule also cuts down on some of the shadier things that can happen in the final leg...

Some examples might be:

Provided the jackpot is big enough, players holding potential winning (as in take down the jackpot) tickets in the final leg might conceivably bet enough on a near favorite that benefits them so as to make that runner the post time favorite. Alternately, they might bet enough on runner so as to ensure a different horse (one that benefits them) can not become the post time favorite.

In other words, depending on the situation, under the current rules, players holding potential take down the jackpot tickets can use the win pool to manipulate the outcome of the jackpot bet.

Such a rule would curtail that type of thing and give the game a cleaner appearance from an integrity of the game standpoint.

The more I think about it the more I like it. (Therefore, it's never gonna happen.)


-jp

.

I agree. This is a good idea.

[cj]

Good discussion of this today on Steve Byk's show:

http://www.thoroughbredracingradionetwork.com/index.php?option=com_events&task=view_detail&agid=1542&year=2013&month=07&day=23&Itemid=35

Hour 3, both Travis and Andy talk.

[JustRalph]

Perhaps the singled horse in the final leg was punched mistakenly. It happens.

If so, that was one lucky SOB.......

[cj]

If so, that was one lucky SOB.......

It was a quick pick.

[JustRalph]

It was a quick pick.

A blind pick from the machine? That changes everything. :lol:

Holy crap! Now I gotta laugh at the whole scenario :lol:

[cj]

A blind pick from the machine? That changes everything. :lol:

Holy crap! Now I gotta laugh at the whole scenario :lol:

Apparently...in the link I provided for Byk's show, Travis said he was told by someone that would know.

[castaway01]

A blind pick from the machine? That changes everything. :lol:

Holy crap! Now I gotta laugh at the whole scenario :lol:

I know---makes it that much crueler for the guy with the other ticket. A scratched 40-1 quick pick in the last leg wipes out his jackpot. That's probably a first.

[Stillriledup]

Tracks can make these bets much harder to hit if their quick pick is somehow tied into the blind pool and you can select "uncovered combos only" and you can invest X amount of dollars and it will only select a series of combos that are currently uncovered. If a track can find a way to do that, they can have a much better shot at growing that carryover till the final day.

tracks who have these jackpot bets should, imo, say that on the first day of the new month, its a mandatory payout....this way, they can have multiple carryover possibilities and not get "ruined" by one lucky punch a day or 2 before the meet ends. Tracks with 3 and 4 month meets ought to seriously think about "resetting" the counter on the first of the month with a mandatory.

[iceknight]

There is ANOTHER side to the story.

If that longshot had NOT been scratched and had it won, the guy in Arlington park would have gotten the Pick 5.

Just because this jocket's agent and his buddy got to Andy Beyer first and told their story does not make it a bad beat.

Just because many handicappers think they can figure out the game, does NOT make it a game of skill alone. I am not sure why the big hatred about Quick pick players. They probably add more ignorant money to the pool all the time.

Disclosure: I am not a quik pik player. Never scratched a single lottery in my life either. Always Logical horses or Trainer/jockey % angles only.

Edit Just realized castaway got this comment!

[Hoofless_Wonder]

He specified for all those except anyone taking down the whole pool.

Sorry 'bout that. Yes, Beyer's article did state this. However, the reason I mentioned his comment about the 62.5% takeout, is that he's complaining about it, or complaining about the bet. In the same paragraph he goes on to talk about the Del Mar pick 5 and its 14 percent takeout, yet he's really comparing apples and oranges since one is a jackpot style pool and the other is not.

Coming from the guy who loves the Twin Tri, but only loves it once the carryover gets large. I don't see a whole lot of difference here.

In spite of the ruckus that's the subject of this thread, I'll be taking a (small) swing at the LaD Pick 5 on Thursday.

And I bet Beyer will be too....

[overthehill]

The problem that I have with all of this. is that i thought the rule was supposed to cover a late scratch. in this particular case the bet was made before any of the scratches came out, so i thought the entire ticket would be refunded if that horse was singled and was scratched well before the betting on the jackpot. if that is the not case i can bet a dirt only horse in a turf race as long as i do it early enough and will autmatically get the post time favorite. sounds like a good strategy to me.

[KingChas]

A blind pick from the machine? That changes everything. :lol:

Holy crap! Now I gotta laugh at the whole scenario :lol:

Let me get this straight. A person heads out at 8:00 am to get his advance bets down for the day and quick picks this bet.
A real degenerate or one lucky S.O.B. I would guess.


:eek: WOW! :eek:

[green80]

Sure would of been nice to know.

But as you know nothing shady has ever happened with these type of bets in the past and of course history does not repeat itself.............. :liar:


Arlington's mutual dept can pull the film of this ticket being purchased if it was bought a the window. If it was an ADW they can tell who's account it was.
SO.. who bought this ticket and what combination was bet can be easily discovered.