Ask a Trainer.

[Stillriledup]

I don't want to volunteer Cannon Shell or Chad or any other actual trainer/former trainer who posts here to answer questions, but if they want to, i think we would all appreciate it if they could chime in. Just questions you would love to ask a trainer to help your handicapping, i've always believed that if you can think like a horseman, it will be an immense help to your handicapping and horsebetting.

The one thing i would like to ask and discuss is the idea that horses are much more fragile than they were back in the day. Since many or almost all of my wagers are from video replay analysis, i've found the tightrope i'm walking has to do with horses who run TOO big, look TOO good on tape and they just can't duplicate that performance when i bet them back and i end up losing money on a horse who looked fantastic on tape and yet, that horse didnt look fantastic in his or her next start with little or no warning.

Its certainly up to the trainer to make sure that the horse has adequate rest to come back for a top effort the next time, but that just isnt very practical to wait around forever, so a lot of connections will run back too soon. Its my job to sniff out the ones who had a 'hard' effort and stay away from them if they're back too soon even if their tape looks sensational. Certainly a fine line. I've missed winners who i thought were 'over the top' but they had one more big race in them.


One of the questions would be how the modern thoroughbred reacts after a race, does the horse in 2013 seem more 'drained' in the hours after his race than the tbred of 20 years ago and what is the recovery process like for the modern runner (in the hours and days directly after a race) and does it differ in any way from what happened a couple decades ago ?

[chadk66]

great question. Generally I don't see any difference with how horses are after a race now than they were twenty years ago. It also appears horses are ran less frequently now days than just twenty years ago. It was very common to see cheaper claimers running every ten to twelve days when I trained in the eighties and nineties. not so much now days from what I see. One thing from being on this board that I see that is in sharp contrast to twenty to thirty years ago is the number of positives for illegal meds. much higher now days. I'm not sure why that is but it must be one of two things. more/better drugs available now, or horsemen aren't as good with the horses now and the drugs are a tool for success. I don't want to believe the latter but today in this country we have become the kings of shortcuts. everybody wants it done faster, easier and with less thinking. So I guess it's a definite possibility. One thing I do see is that there is so much more available in the form of therapies, drugs, etc. just as in the human medical field. When I trained adequan had just came out. originally it had to be injected into the joint. then a couple years later they discovered it worked just as well injected IM. Now it's being used as a regular therapy on a daily basis. When I trained I did research and development for 3M corporation. Two guys at 3M and myself did all the R&D on the equisport bandage. The first bandage they brought me to try was so strong you could have pull started your truck with it. too strong for horse applications. This succeeded the vet wrap they had on the market at the time. We also did a ton of research on cold water wraps. Probably tested ten different ones but I think only one ever made the market. They had some pretty cool stuff they never marketed. I'd love to answer any questions the best I can.

[lamboguy]

i am in the middle of trying to bring back a horse that was a complete mess. i had 2 different vets look at the horse and they told me that there is a torn muscle in between the horse's left front shoulder and chest. they both said there was nothing i could do about it. we went to work on the horse and found that the right rear end was out of line. we worked on the horse for 3 weeks and got her to release her tension. before we worked on her, the horse was so tangled up that she couldn't change leads. she is changing her lead right now, but her left front shoulder is still sore. we are going to try working on her muscle, if that doesn't work we are going to come up with the conclusion that she might have a hairline fracture and will need time off to heal. in today's world, that shoulder would either get tapped of get shock wave therapy. i never take that route.

[magwell]

A lot of times if a horse is showing shoulder, it's coming from the foot.....sometimes from opposite side rear end, but mostly feet.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Whatever your opinion of steroids, it was a whole lot easier to bring a cheap one back over and over and do so quickly if you could pop it with a little Equipoise or Winstrol after a race. I never was much for it, but if you were claiming horses off of certain people and planned on actually running them after the claim, you almost had to be somewhat willing to meet the horse half way and not force him into competitive detox.

Of course, it's only been, what, five years since most places snuffed out overuse? So, as far as the 20 years ago question... I think that's probably a little different question and not sure that I think that horses were necessarily more consistent then when running more often. Maybe, but not sure. I tend to think the desire to not be inconsistent (aka keep that % up) is part of what drives the fewer starts for cheap horses since that era.

[jpren37]

trainer question:

How often does it happen that a trainer is not trying to win (I don't mean those situations where the trainer instructs the jock not to push but if the horse wants to run, let him go. I mean specific instructions to the jock not to win this time.) Perhaps he is pointing for another race or some other circumstance that necessitates just a workout today. Is there a way for a handicapper to spot this trainer's intention? Obviously horses win first time at a particular distance, first time at a certain class, first time off a particular length layoff etc. You can't just look to those factors and say the trainer is not entered to win today simply because the horse has never won with those factors. Are there any tell-tale signs to look for?

[lamboguy]

trainer question:

How often does it happen that a trainer is not trying to win (I don't mean those situations where the trainer instructs the jock not to push but if the horse wants to run, let him go. I mean specific instructions to the jock not to win this time.) Perhaps he is pointing for another race or some other circumstance that necessitates just a workout today. Is there a way for a handicapper to spot this trainer's intention? Obviously horses win first time at a particular distance, first time at a certain class, first time off a particular length layoff etc. You can't just look to those factors and say the trainer is not entered to win today simply because the horse has never won with those factors. Are there any tell-tale signs to look for?
why would a trainer want his horse not to try? that would only give the horse a bad habit that will be very tough to break.

if a trainer would try to get a favorite beat to try to win a bet, the stewards will call him in and he will have some major problems.

[thaskalos]

trainer question:

How often does it happen that a trainer is not trying to win (I don't mean those situations where the trainer instructs the jock not to push but if the horse wants to run, let him go. I mean specific instructions to the jock not to win this time.) Perhaps he is pointing for another race or some other circumstance that necessitates just a workout today. Is there a way for a handicapper to spot this trainer's intention? Obviously horses win first time at a particular distance, first time at a certain class, first time off a particular length layoff etc. You can't just look to those factors and say the trainer is not entered to win today simply because the horse has never won with those factors. Are there any tell-tale signs to look for?

The only accurate tell-tale sign I've ever discovered that a horse might not be in the race to win but might instead be pointed to some future race...is when the horse is leading by open lengths turning for home, but its rider looks as if he has been afflicted by rigor mortis...while all the other jockeys are giving their mounts at least a vigorous hand-ride.

[Cannon shell]

trainer question:

How often does it happen that a trainer is not trying to win (I don't mean those situations where the trainer instructs the jock not to push but if the horse wants to run, let him go. I mean specific instructions to the jock not to win this time.) Perhaps he is pointing for another race or some other circumstance that necessitates just a workout today. Is there a way for a handicapper to spot this trainer's intention? Obviously horses win first time at a particular distance, first time at a certain class, first time off a particular length layoff etc. You can't just look to those factors and say the trainer is not entered to win today simply because the horse has never won with those factors. Are there any tell-tale signs to look for?
Very rarely will a trainer instruct a jockey not to win. That doesn't mean that every starter is well meant. In the past more than now trainers used to race their horses into shape often giving them a race or two. Charlie Whittingham rarely won with 1st timers for instance. With win % meaning so much more now than in the past a lot of guys wont give them one off of a layoff or 1st time.

I actually had a horse in an allowance race at Turfway once off of a long layoff that I thought was a little short and I was getting a race under his belt for Keeneland. He was not a KY bred so I did NOT want to win the TP race being that 1/2 of the purse was KY bred money. So I instructed the jock to take the horse back, stay on the rail and don't really let him run until the 1/8th pole and gallop out strong after the race. Of course the three favorites duel on the front end, the entire field gets out on the final turn and the jock who is trying to get the horse in trouble, can't and wins the race under a double hold. First time I apologized to an owner after winning a race.

[DeltaLover]

why would a trainer want his horse not to try?

Planning an upset in his next race?

[VeryOldMan]

I actually had a horse in an allowance race at Turfway once off of a long layoff that I thought was a little short and I was getting a race under his belt for Keeneland. He was not a KY bred so I did NOT want to win the TP race being that 1/2 of the purse was KY bred money. So I instructed the jock to take the horse back, stay on the rail and don't really let him run until the 1/8th pole and gallop out strong after the race. Of course the three favorites duel on the front end, the entire field gets out on the final turn and the jock who is trying to get the horse in trouble, can't and wins the race under a double hold. First time I apologized to an owner after winning a race.

Great story.

This thread has serious potential for good information or at least good stories. More please! :)

[lamboguy]

there was a horse today in the 3rd race at Parx, the #1 TANGO ON, Angel Aroyo rode the horse the very last race. he usually rides first call for trainer Steve Klesaris. he had worked 3 different horses in the race and wound up on another horse. one might think that he chose the other horse. but what i found out was the owner of TANGO ON was not pleased with the ride he got from the rider and wanted a different guy on the horse.

[magwell]

The only accurate tell-tale sign I've ever discovered that a horse might not be in the race to win but might instead be pointed to some future race...is when the horse is leading by open lengths turning for home, but its rider looks as if he has been afflicted by rigor mortis...while all the other jockeys are giving their mounts at least a vigorous hand-ride. This is way funny.......:rolleyes:

[pondman]

why would a trainer want his horse not to try?.

It's not an issue of trying. Do you run horses knowing it just so green that's it's not going to do well? It just doesn't have enough experience handling all the noise and the obstacles, such as shadows and rails. And you know it doesn't have a chance? But the crowd bets it down anyway for whatever reason? And you think-- the crowds is crazy?

[chadk66]

i am in the middle of trying to bring back a horse that was a complete mess. i had 2 different vets look at the horse and they told me that there is a torn muscle in between the horse's left front shoulder and chest. they both said there was nothing i could do about it. we went to work on the horse and found that the right rear end was out of line. we worked on the horse for 3 weeks and got her to release her tension. before we worked on her, the horse was so tangled up that she couldn't change leads. she is changing her lead right now, but her left front shoulder is still sore. we are going to try working on her muscle, if that doesn't work we are going to come up with the conclusion that she might have a hairline fracture and will need time off to heal. in today's world, that shoulder would either get tapped of get shock wave therapy. i never take that route.the best thing I ever used for soft tissue issues such as yours is therapeutic ultrasound. I rented machines from a medical supply/rental shop. it was staggering how fast and how well they healed up using it.

[chadk66]

Whatever your opinion of steroids, it was a whole lot easier to bring a cheap one back over and over and do so quickly if you could pop it with a little Equipoise or Winstrol after a race. I never was much for it, but if you were claiming horses off of certain people and planned on actually running them after the claim, you almost had to be somewhat willing to meet the horse half way and not force him into competitive detox.

Of course, it's only been, what, five years since most places snuffed out overuse? So, as far as the 20 years ago question... I think that's probably a little different question and not sure that I think that horses were necessarily more consistent then when running more often. Maybe, but not sure. I tend to think the desire to not be inconsistent (aka keep that % up) is part of what drives the fewer starts for cheap horses since that era.the horses I had that we ran back every ten to fourteen days were cheap claimers that were a bitch to train. meaning they ran off with you while galloping or they just didnt train hard enough in the mornings to get much out of it. The horses that I had running back quickly were very consistent. One mare maybe missed the board once a year.

[chadk66]

trainer question:

How often does it happen that a trainer is not trying to win (I don't mean those situations where the trainer instructs the jock not to push but if the horse wants to run, let him go. I mean specific instructions to the jock not to win this time.) Perhaps he is pointing for another race or some other circumstance that necessitates just a workout today. Is there a way for a handicapper to spot this trainer's intention? Obviously horses win first time at a particular distance, first time at a certain class, first time off a particular length layoff etc. You can't just look to those factors and say the trainer is not entered to win today simply because the horse has never won with those factors. Are there any tell-tale signs to look for?It happens but I never gave those instructions during my training career. I was always in it to win. However, with two year olds, especially first time starters, I have instructed to not beat the horse up if your not in it. If they're wanting to run up front go on with them but take care of them if they really don't have interest. I have had owners approach me about holding their horses for a couple races so they can cash some tickets. I didn't train for those owners very long.

[delayjf]

Question:
How do you feel about trainer stats that were attributed to you. Do you know of trainers who would buck their own stats or tendencies to get a price on their horse.

[Cannon shell]

Question:
How do you feel about trainer stats that were attributed to you. Do you know of trainers who would buck their own stats or tendencies to get a price on their horse.
I don't think for the most part most trainer stats outside of overall win % effect the price too much. Plus depending on the source of the stats the numbers may vary anyway. For instance trainer stats on T Graph and DRF are often not even close to each other because of a difference in time frames used.

[Stillriledup]

trainer question:

How often does it happen that a trainer is not trying to win (I don't mean those situations where the trainer instructs the jock not to push but if the horse wants to run, let him go. I mean specific instructions to the jock not to win this time.) Perhaps he is pointing for another race or some other circumstance that necessitates just a workout today. Is there a way for a handicapper to spot this trainer's intention? Obviously horses win first time at a particular distance, first time at a certain class, first time off a particular length layoff etc. You can't just look to those factors and say the trainer is not entered to win today simply because the horse has never won with those factors. Are there any tell-tale signs to look for?

This is interesting that you brought this up, because i started thinking of trainers who "unintentionally" lose by not treating their horses with lasix until the 3rd, 4th or 5th lifetime start. There's a trainer currently at Belmont who is 'on a tear' with FTL which kind of irks me a little bit knowing that he is not really 'trying" first and 2nd time out...they want to make sure, i guess, to not have their horse run a HUGE "figure" until they have built up some stamina and bottom.

From an owner standpoint, this is a great idea, but bettors who bet on these non lasix horses are essentially being 'guinea pigs' when the horse is not fully cranked to win.

What can you do about it? I think this stuff is just part of handicapping and you have to take all the information you have. If a trainer feels that he or she wants to run a horse into shape before "firing the big shot" i sort of think that's actually good for the sport as this will just be one more horse who is "ready" to run huge and not have that huge figure be the beginning of the end for that runner. We need all the horses we can get who are healthy to run.

My favorite "handicapping angle" in the game is for there to be trainers who 'give' horses a race or 2 before having them ready to run their best possible race, i like the idea that i can sniff out a horse who is really 'nice' and i know is just being given an education race, to me, the best of both worlds is having a horse i can see on tape is really talented but at the same time, the PP line the horse will have next time isnt so great. I watch enough tape, including the back of the pack, that i say "stiff away" all you want, if a quality runner is being hidden, i'm going to see it, some of my best scores came on the heels of a jock hiding one in the back.

[completebill]

Many, many years ago, my Son trained a horse at Golden Gate Fields, named Howie's Choice, if I recall correctly. This horse was a huge "trier", had a high win percentage, and was the model of consistency.

Relevant to the issue of "trying", I think was the trainer's intent shown by selection of rest between races. If the horse came back in 10-14 days, it was a real contender @ $6500 to $8,000 (claiming price). However, if the horse was rested from about 15 to 21 days, it was a contender at between $8,000 and $10,000. If my son (and/or the owner) chose to rest the horse between races for about 4-5 weeks, the horse could contend for the win @ about $12,500, and, if a $16,000 race came up weak, the hose could possibly contend at up to $16,000.

In this case, although somewhat unusual, you could read the trainer's intent simply by looking at the layoff pattern.

[sammy the sage]

The only accurate tell-tale sign I've ever discovered that a horse might not be in the race to win but might instead be pointed to some future race...is when the horse is leading by open lengths turning for home, but its rider looks as if he has been afflicted by rigor mortis...while all the other jockeys are giving their mounts at least a vigorous hand-ride.

Very true regardless of Lambo's comments to contrary...but how do you know BEFORE the race.... :bang:

[chadk66]

this is a discussion my brother and I had at great length last week. He had a two year old first time starter running. He asked me if I thought he should run it on lasix. I said "why in the hell would you do that, does he bleed in the morning"? He said no but everybody runs their horses on lasix. I asked him why they would do that. He said it's performance enhancing. I laughed and told him he's full of crap. Lasix doesn't enhance horses performance, it only allows them to run to their full potential. And a two year old first time starter is either going to do that on his own or he isn't. I'm not really sure where this theory is coming from regarding lasix enhancing performance. If you have a horse that moves up on FTL there is no doubt the horse has been bleeding prior.

[lamboguy]

Very true regardless of Lambo's comments to contrary...but how do you know BEFORE the race.... :bang:i might do a lot of dumb things like place horses in wrong spots, run on dirt instead of turf, but i have never intentionally sent a horse into a boxing ring to get his head chopped off, and neither do 99.9% of all trainers.

[Magister Ludi]

this is a discussion my brother and I had at great length last week. He had a two year old first time starter running. He asked me if I thought he should run it on lasix. I said "why in the hell would you do that, does he bleed in the morning"? He said no but everybody runs their horses on lasix. I asked him why they would do that. He said it's performance enhancing. I laughed and told him he's full of crap. Lasix doesn't enhance horses performance, it only allows them to run to their full potential. And a two year old first time starter is either going to do that on his own or he isn't. I'm not really sure where this theory is coming from regarding lasix enhancing performance. If you have a horse that moves up on FTL there is no doubt the horse has been bleeding prior.

Furosemide (Lasix) inhibits divalent cation reabsorption and causes an increase in Mg and Ca excretion. A growing young thoroughbred horse who is administered Lasix before exercise will not have sufficient Ca for skeletal growth and repair. EIPH (bleeding) can be controlled with training only, though virtually all U.S. trainers want to take the easy way out. That’s one reason why thoroughbred breakdowns in the U.S. are about triple that of non-Lasix jurisdictions.

[thaskalos]

i might do a lot of dumb things like place horses in wrong spots, run on dirt instead of turf, but i have never intentionally sent a horse into a boxing ring to get his head chopped off, and neither do 99.9% of all trainers.
If this applies to 99.9% of the trainers...then how did the phrase "darkening the horse's form" gain such prominence?

[jpren37]

Quick thanks to the trainers in this tread for being so forthcoming with your comments. That said I have a question for all of you:

Can you give us your perspective on when a handicapper might be able to spot a horse that's not "well meant" for today's race. Is there something we might look for in the paddock, something stated in the condition book, something about owner/trainer/jockey connections, the past performances etc.

thanks

[OCF]

True or False: There's less chicanery at tracks with higher purses. (Or maybe a better way to say it would be there's an inverse relationship between chicanery and purse amount.)

The central rationale would be that if there is a sufficient amount of money to be made from competing in good faith, the temptation to "game the system" in order to also derive income from also cashing big tickets is minimized. By sufficient I mean enough to at least cover expenses and maybe even show a small profit.

I'm guessing True, but I'm much more interested in what trainers think.

Note that I'm not proposing no chicanery, just less.

[Stillriledup]

True or False: There's less chicanery at tracks with higher purses. (Or maybe a better way to say it would be there's an inverse relationship between chicanery and purse amount.)

The central rationale would be that if there is a sufficient amount of money to be made from competing in good faith, the temptation to "game the system" in order to also derive income from also cashing big tickets is minimized. By sufficient I mean enough to at least cover expenses and maybe even show a small profit.

I'm guessing True, but I'm much more interested in what trainers think.

Note that I'm not proposing no chicanery, just less.

I believe and, this is just my own personal opinion and could be wrong (wouldnt be the first time, certainly won't be the last) but owners who spend money on a yearling and upkeep for at least 1 full year before realizing any 'fruits' of their time and effort, almost feel "in their right" to "cash a bet" on their firster (or, seconder). Its like a right of passage. I believe that any "Stuff" that goes on with darkening form and putting horses in the wrong spots on purpose is just part of the game, its part of adding one more thing to think about in the handicapping process.

[Cannon shell]

Furosemide (Lasix) inhibits divalent cation reabsorption and causes an increase in Mg and Ca excretion. A growing young thoroughbred horse who is administered Lasix before exercise will not have sufficient Ca for skeletal growth and repair. EIPH (bleeding) can be controlled with training only, though virtually all U.S. trainers want to take the easy way out. That’s one reason why thoroughbred breakdowns in the U.S. are about triple that of non-Lasix jurisdictions.
This is nonsense

The idea that 5cc's of lasix before a race will prevent a horse from having the proper amount of calcium for skelatal growth and repair is ludicrous.

EIPH can't be "controlled" in any way, shape or fashion. It is like saying that wearing a seat belt will help control the chance of getting in an car accident. Lasix is given in hope of preventing or lessening the occurrence of EIPH but there is no way to control EIPH through any means. The fact is that a horse can bleed for any number of reasons, many beyond the control of anything other than fate.

[Cannon shell]

Quick thanks to the trainers in this tread for being so forthcoming with your comments. That said I have a question for all of you:

Can you give us your perspective on when a handicapper might be able to spot a horse that's not "well meant" for today's race. Is there something we might look for in the paddock, something stated in the condition book, something about owner/trainer/jockey connections, the past performances etc.

thanks
I would think that studying trainer patterns would be as effective as anything though many trainers don't have enough starts to have a valid statistical summary. If you are at the track just ask the trainer what he thinks. Yeah some can't help but lie but a lot of guys will give you an honest answer.

I ran a horse off of a long layoff at MTH in the Grade 3 this past weekend mostly because the allowance races I entered didn't fill and when I entered MTO the rain suddenly stopped. The we drew a lousy post which forced us to take back in order to not be 5 wide on the 1st turn and if you haven't been following MTH, taking back to last in dirt races is generally a horrible idea. However the horse hadn't run since November and I couldn't see how he could get a decent trip from the outside so taking back, trying to get to the semi-golden rail and getting a race under his belt while hoping for a crazy speed duel was about the best I could do. Technically I didn't tell the jockey not to win but because of the hand we were dealt the tactics employed didn't exactly give us a great chance to win. Had we drawn post 2 we would have surely tried to grab the rail and be up close if not on the lead because of the dynamics of the track and the tactical speed the horse has.

[Magister Ludi]

This is nonsense

The idea that 5cc's of lasix before a race will prevent a horse from having the proper amount of calcium for skelatal growth and repair is ludicrous.

EIPH can't be "controlled" in any way, shape or fashion. It is like saying that wearing a seat belt will help control the chance of getting in an car accident. Lasix is given in hope of preventing or lessening the occurrence of EIPH but there is no way to control EIPH through any means. The fact is that a horse can bleed for any number of reasons, many beyond the control of anything other than fate.

Furosemide was formulated to reduce blood calcium which is inherently dangerous in kidney disease. Increased calcium excretion is cause by the useage of furosemide.

A horse needs to build up dense capillary beds in its muscles through aerobic development. That is done only through regular relatively long gallops of from two to five miles throughout his career. With that type of conditioning, there will be little or no EIPH. 4F breezes are not going to "condition" him.

[chadk66]

True or False: There's less chicanery at tracks with higher purses. (Or maybe a better way to say it would be there's an inverse relationship between chicanery and purse amount.)

The central rationale would be that if there is a sufficient amount of money to be made from competing in good faith, the temptation to "game the system" in order to also derive income from also cashing big tickets is minimized. By sufficient I mean enough to at least cover expenses and maybe even show a small profit.

I'm guessing True, but I'm much more interested in what trainers think.

Note that I'm not proposing no chicanery, just less.True

[chadk66]

Quick thanks to the trainers in this tread for being so forthcoming with your comments. That said I have a question for all of you:

Can you give us your perspective on when a handicapper might be able to spot a horse that's not "well meant" for today's race. Is there something we might look for in the paddock, something stated in the condition book, something about owner/trainer/jockey connections, the past performances etc.

thanksyou know that's a very hard question to answer because I never participated in that type of thing. To me the best way would be through the rumor mill. If there's talk that a certain owner/trainer does this type of thing you can look through the pp's and see where the horse ran poorly for four or five straight out's and then suddenly jumped up and won. Seeing this a couple times would turn on a light for me. But man you could wade through alot of pp's looking for this.

[chadk66]

This is nonsense

The idea that 5cc's of lasix before a race will prevent a horse from having the proper amount of calcium for skelatal growth and repair is ludicrous.

EIPH can't be "controlled" in any way, shape or fashion. It is like saying that wearing a seat belt will help control the chance of getting in an car accident. Lasix is given in hope of preventing or lessening the occurrence of EIPH but there is no way to control EIPH through any means. The fact is that a horse can bleed for any number of reasons, many beyond the control of anything other than fate.you are 100% correct. lasix has been proven in my barn to work so many times it's ridiculous. Now that being said, I never ran horses on lasix unless they needed it. we have a hard enough time keeping fluids in these horses without helping to cause the problem unless needed.

[OCF]

True. Thanks so much

[magwell]

you are 100% correct. lasix has been proven in my barn to work so many times it's ridiculous. Now that being said, I never ran horses on lasix unless they needed it. we have a hard enough time keeping fluids in these horses without helping to cause the problem unless needed. So your saying you waited for the horses to bleed before you put them on lasix ? when its legal to use it to prevent bleeding ?

[Stillriledup]

you are 100% correct. lasix has been proven in my barn to work so many times it's ridiculous. Now that being said, I never ran horses on lasix unless they needed it. we have a hard enough time keeping fluids in these horses without helping to cause the problem unless needed.

I've noticed, just from afar as a handicapper, that almost all horses eventually get lasix...and most seem to get it sooner rather than later. Some say that lasix 'masks' other drugs but it seems to still work even if the trainer doesnt do anything else, what's your theory on why lasix might work, my guess would be that it completely clears up all the mucous and junk in the breathing passages and thus, a better breather will perform better.

[lamboguy]

i have a horse that ran 5 times with 5 cc's of lasix and never bled. she bled her last start, maybe because it was humid, or maybe because she went from route to sprint. after she bled, she had to be treated with sulfur to clean out the blood left in her lungs. its really not a pretty sight when a horse bleeds. they could possibly choke on the blood in their lungs. i never liked lasix, but if you are going to allow bleeders to run, you have to have them on something that helps them.

[Cannon shell]

Furosemide was formulated to reduce blood calcium which is inherently dangerous in kidney disease. Increased calcium excretion is cause by the useage of furosemide.

A horse needs to build up dense capillary beds in its muscles through aerobic development. That is done only through regular relatively long gallops of from two to five miles throughout his career. With that type of conditioning, there will be little or no EIPH. 4F breezes are not going to "condition" him.
Horses unlike humans who take lasix daily rarely get treated. Calcium excretion is not an issue.

The idea that a thoroughbred should gallop 5 miles a day is a joke as is the idea that EIPH stems from "undertraining" of less than 20+ miles of training a week.

[Magister Ludi]

Horses unlike humans who take lasix daily rarely get treated. Calcium excretion is not an issue.

The idea that a thoroughbred should gallop 5 miles a day is a joke as is the idea that EIPH stems from "undertraining" of less than 20+ miles of training a week.

Lasix causes calcium imbalance:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/78520/study-salix-can-lead-to-calcium-imbalance

In my post, I neither said "5 miles a day" nor "20+ miles of training a week".

[taxicab]

Furosemide was formulated to reduce blood calcium which is inherently dangerous in kidney disease. Increased calcium excretion is cause by the useage of furosemide.

A horse needs to build up dense capillary beds in its muscles through aerobic development. That is done only through regular relatively long gallops of from two to five miles throughout his career. With that type of conditioning, there will be little or no EIPH. 4F breezes are not going to "condition" him.



Wayne Burson......
Going back about 30 years.
If you had a "bad bleeder" in No.Cal you sent your horse to Wayne Burson.
He was a freaking miracle worker with the bad bleeders.
He fixed them.
He had 2 golden rules to getting the bleeders right.
A special diet for the bleeders.
The key to that diet was the removal of alfalfa.
Too much alfalfa equaled bleeding.
And long slow gallops upwards to 5 miles.....
Magister knows of what he speaks.

[chadk66]

Furosemide was formulated to reduce blood calcium which is inherently dangerous in kidney disease. Increased calcium excretion is cause by the useage of furosemide.

A horse needs to build up dense capillary beds in its muscles through aerobic development. That is done only through regular relatively long gallops of from two to five miles throughout his career. With that type of conditioning, there will be little or no EIPH. 4F breezes are not going to "condition" him.your theory isn't supported by actual fact. here's something for you to ponder. In 1986 I started training. The first horse I received was a horse that was owned by my father. They had given up on the horse because he wasn't getting the job done. The horse was named Night Rover (1982 I believe). He was by Grey Dawn II out of a Buckpasser mare. Bred to the hilt. He was unraced at two probably due to his size. The year before I started training he broke his maiden going 4.5 furlongs. He was so tired after the race he could hardly hold his head up. The trainer then took him to thistledown and ran him four times for 5k. He was beaten by fifteen to twenty lengths every race. So they gave up on him. I acquired him in feb. of 86. I had just finished reading Tom Ivers book "The Fit Race Horse". I was extremely intrigued to say the least. My life was nothing but athletics growing up so I could relate to what Tom was saying. Made perfect sense to me. So I started interval training this horse. Worked him up to five or six miles a day galloping. Once I had a solid foundation in him I started breezing him multiple times in a trip to the track. Just walked and jogged between breezes until his heart rate was where it needed to be. Needless to say this training wasn't very well received at the track. I was scoffed at and ridiculed. But I kept on with him. I had four other horses that I trained what you would consider normally. Wanted to focus and concentrate on just the one horse for starters. After some time I had him built up to working two 6 furlongs works in a row with time to lower heart rate between. To make a long story short The horse won for 12K before the meet ended. I then took him to thistledown one year after his dismal trip there. I won three in a row with him there at 11,500, 15K and wide open allowance. He went on to win well over 100k and won allowance races at cby and was a solid 20K claimer there for a few years. The horse just gave me 110% every time. However, he was still a bleeder and required lasix, even after being trained harder than any horse I've ever seen. Is interval training the best possible way to train a race horse? absolutely. But the problem lies with the economics of it. It is far too costly and way too tough of a sell to owners and your help. And not all horses will hold up to it physically or mentally. I've also done some hybrid interval training with some other horses I received later on that were not performing to their potential. And it worked very well for them also. I could go on and on with stories similar to this but the bottom line is, I do not know of another trainer that puts the miles on their horses that I did. And I still had a fair number of bleeders. I firmly believe that a large percentage of bleeders isn't necessarily due to lack of training but mere hereditary influence.

[chadk66]

So your saying you waited for the horses to bleed before you put them on lasix ? when its legal to use it to prevent bleeding ?when I trained the rules did not allow free use of lasix if you just wanted to use it. Most states required an endoscopic exam witnessed by the state vet to verify the bleeding. Some states even required visible bleeding from the nostrils before you could use lasix. Times have changed greatly in regards to lasix use.

[chadk66]

I've noticed, just from afar as a handicapper, that almost all horses eventually get lasix...and most seem to get it sooner rather than later. Some say that lasix 'masks' other drugs but it seems to still work even if the trainer doesnt do anything else, what's your theory on why lasix might work, my guess would be that it completely clears up all the mucous and junk in the breathing passages and thus, a better breather will perform better.I've heard that argument regarding cleaning up mucous and such but I have never seen anything clinical to support it. Lasix simply reduces blood pressure via dehydration. twenty years ago lasix was believed to mask other drugs but todays testings methods have pretty much eliminated that from what I've been able to decipher. I think the lasix use rules of today were put in place for uniformity for the most part.

[chadk66]

Wayne Burson......
Going back about 30 years.
If you had a "bad bleeder" in No.Cal you sent your horse to Wayne Burson.
He was a freaking miracle worker with the bad bleeders.
He fixed them.
He had 2 golden rules to getting the bleeders right.
A special diet for the bleeders.
The key to that diet was the removal of alfalfa.
Too much alfalfa equaled bleeding.
And long slow gallops upwards to 5 miles.....
Magister knows of what he speaks.I won't buy the alfalfa claim. I had fewer bleeders than any trainer on the track when I was training. I fed straight alfalfa to all my horses. alfalfa is the premier forage for race horses. A horse will use less energy to convert alfalfa to energy than any other forage available. I did a ton of experimenting with feeds and have learned some amazing things. I designed my own feed (sweet feed) and had it made at a local mill. I studied horse nutrition in college and derived what I felt was the best food for these animals. I also cooked my oats for evening feeding every day. I never had a bad eater which says alot. After smelling those cooking oats all day those horses about tore the tub off the wall at night.

[taxicab]

Burson was a legend.
His success rate with bad bleeders was second to none.




Whatever the background, the immediate cause of EIPH is blood pressure. High blood pressure in the pulmonary capillaries in the horse's lungs can build up during strenous exercise. Vets think the problem could be that the heart does not have a chance to properly contract, relax and fill while it is sprinting. Alternatively, certain performance feeds have been blamed. It has been suggested that alfalfa hay, which is often fed to racehorses due to its high protein levels, leads to high levels of a nitrogen by-product called urea which is expelled in the horse's urine. In other words, horses are inhaling ammonia fumes from their own urine (especially when being transported in horseboxes) and this could be enflaming their lungs and trachea which then leads to bleeding during exercise.

[chadk66]

Burson was a legend.
His success rate with bad bleeders was second to none.




Whatever the background, the immediate cause of EIPH is blood pressure. High blood pressure in the pulmonary capillaries in the horse's lungs can build up during strenous exercise. Vets think the problem could be that the heart does not have a chance to properly contract, relax and fill while it is sprinting. Alternatively, certain performance feeds have been blamed. It has been suggested that alfalfa hay, which is often fed to racehorses due to its high protein levels, leads to high levels of a nitrogen by-product called urea which is expelled in the horse's urine. In other words, horses are inhaling ammonia fumes from their own urine (especially when being transported in horseboxes) and this could be enflaming their lungs and trachea which then leads to bleeding during exercise.I noted that you said "suggested". I'm assuming there is no clinical studies to support this? And third cutting alfalfa (which is what is fed to the majority of race horses) does not contain near the protein and first or second cutting and is much finer. First cutting alfalfa is in the 18% range in protein. Third cutting will drop to the 12-13% range. Equivalent to the protein in oats. As a trainer it is very easy to tell if your horse is taking in too much protein, the ammonia smell of the urine gets very strong. This can also be caused by numerous feed additives. So first hint of high ammonia smell you have to change something in the diet. Not rocket science but rather just paying attention.

[Magister Ludi]

I noted that you said "suggested". I'm assuming there is no clinical studies to support this? And third cutting alfalfa (which is what is fed to the majority of race horses) does not contain near the protein and first or second cutting and is much finer. First cutting alfalfa is in the 18% range in protein. Third cutting will drop to the 12-13% range. Equivalent to the protein in oats. As a trainer it is very easy to tell if your horse is taking in too much protein, the ammonia smell of the urine gets very strong. This can also be caused by numerous feed additives. So first hint of high ammonia smell you have to change something in the diet. Not rocket science but rather just paying attention.

Some Irish trainers feel that certain herbs are extremely effective in acting as broncholidators and others that strengthen the lungs. These herbs include Borage Herb, Buckwheat, Comfrey, Elecampane, Hawthorn, Kelp Powder, Marshmallow, Nettle, Rosehips, Rue, Yarrow, and Yellow Dock. Have you ever used any of them as feed additives?

[lamboguy]

Some Irish trainers feel that certain herbs are extremely effective in acting as broncholidators and others that strengthen the lungs. These herbs include Borage Herb, Buckwheat, Comfrey, Elecampane, Hawthorn, Kelp Powder, Marshmallow, Nettle, Rosehips, Rue, Yarrow, and Yellow Dock. Have you ever used any of them as feed additives?when we have a horse that is a non-sweater, we let them drink Guiness Beer, it works most of the time.

[speed]

when we have a horse that is a non-sweater, we let them drink Guiness Beer, it works most of the time.
No wonder when i get drunk why i start sweating like a horse. :)

[DeltaLover]

How you decide to claim a horse? Do you use any type of a speed figure to judge his ability? Do you rely on a spy who is monitoring the horse's behavior? Do you mostly rely on visual handicapping?

After claiming a complete 'lemon' what are your thoughts about its previous trainer? Do you believe it is ethical to run a crippled horse with only intention of it been claimed by an unsuspected trainer?

Have you ever ran a horse after a very short layoff and a very bad performance (without any excuses) and what was your intention for doing so? Do you think that it is normal a horse to be transformed within a week and from finishing dead last to win as a huge outsider?

Do you rely in betting to pay your bills?

Do you try to hide the form and ability of your horses (both in the morning and the afternoon) shooting for an upset?

[johnhannibalsmith]

How you decide to claim a horse? Do you use any type of a speed figure to judge his ability? Do you rely on a spy who is monitoring the horse's behavior? Do you mostly rely on visual handicapping?

If I claim one for myself, it almost always is the lattermost factor. I'd say a whole lot of the claims I've made for myself were horses that I liked and at some point lost money betting on and felt as though the reason for losing the money came down to some tangible that I could rectify. That certainly wouldn't account for an overwhelming majority, but if I had to come with a singular objective answer, I'd say that probably best describes a large number off them. Some of the most prolific claiming trainers that I've know have definitely made a large percentage of their claims based solely on "numbers". One of the better winning trainers in my state in years past was almost strictly a "sheets" guy. It wasn't the only factor - he tended towards horses that met the criteria on that factor and were in barns that he felt did a poor job - but he spent almost every morning in the kitchen diligently studying.

After claiming a complete 'lemon' what are your thoughts about its previous trainer? Do you believe it is ethical to run a crippled horse with only intention of it been claimed by an unsuspected trainer?

Since I've run almost exclusively in places that deal mainly in bottom claimers, it would almost be impossible for me to consider trying to lose a horse "unethical". If you are going to play the game at this level, you have to be paying attention. Showing up in the afternoons only when you have one in or if you have an owner looking to claim something that day and dropping based solely on what is in the form and maybe a few minutes of observation in the paddock is probably going to be a failed strategy. Unless you have dollars and owners to burn through, you better be watching horses in the mornings and in the afternoons.

Have you ever ran a horse after a very short layoff and a very bad performance (without any excuses) and what was your intention for doing so? Do you think that it is normal a horse to be transformed within a week and from finishing dead last to win as a huge outsider?

I'm not sure that I understand the question - are you asking if the horse is coming back very quickly after a bad race - like finishing up the track and then firing right back in a week to run much better?

If I'm on the right track - I'm not sure if it is normal or abnormal, it would sort of depend on the scenario. I've had that type of scenario happen where it would appear perhaps on the surface that it was inexplicable, but in reality, it wasn't at all.

Case in point - a horse that I had claimed that had some back California class and had been in a Nyquil barn for a year or so was just basically unfit, not trying, going through the motions. To condense, I made a few pretty jolting lifestyle changes to shake him up a bit, ran a mile and an eighth late runner back going five and a half, and won with him first time. The next time that I ran him, I stretched him back out to where he wanted to run - but it had poured all weekend prior to the race and the track had been sealed into damn near concrete. The races were just horses running around in order from start to finish.

I had put enough effort into trying to get this horse back to where he was a few years earlier and didn't want to go messing that up by adapting to the track bias for that single day. The jock also got on the horse in the morning for me - he wasn't a great jock but he was the type of guy that would put in the effort on a little project like this. He knew why I didn't want to go sacrificing long term gains by asking the horse to do something that would be counterproductive to the overall project, even if because of the bias it would improve his chances of placing today if we did so.

He let him fall well off the pace as we had been working on, asked him at the three-sixteenths, and picked off one horse late and wound up fifth or sixth, but galloped out well in front of the field and had basically run the type of race that we were aiming for. It didn't take a lot out of him, he was finally getting legitimately race fit, he was getting to where he wanted to run by horses and was acting competitive again. Ran him back about ten days later on a track that was no longer sporting a pronounced bias in the same condition and he won nicely using the same running style at about 8-1.

From there, he won two of his next five with a couple of seconds and a third, and was claimed away from me. So, yeah, in a sense if you had looked at his form after the second win - the one following what appeared to be a non-existent effort - without knowing the bias or the motives for not adjusting to the bias, you might think there was some sketchy underhanded rationale for what appeared to be an illogical reversal in form. But, from my perspective, it was entirely logical and in the best interest of the horse and what followed supported the decisions made at the time.


Do you rely in betting to pay your bills?

I have. With that said, the vast, vast, vast majority of the time I was relying on betting the races in general, not my own horses. I've had a couple of decent scores betting on my own, but I can't say that I've ever made decisions based solely on maximizing the ability to cash a gamble if that's sort of what you're implying here. I can't stand leading a horse to the paddock and thinking that I have no shot to win.

Do you try to hide the form and ability of your horses (both in the morning and the afternoon) shooting for an upset?

The only instance that I can remember doing anything that would fit that scenario was with a horse I bought that I had turned out for almost a year and brought back off a long layoff. He had been a very solid cheap claimer for years, but a friend had claimed him and he was about out of gas at the time, had a couple little nagging problems, and was a bit of a head case. The horse ran terribly for my friend off the claim - about four or five starts - and I actually took the horse from the owner (who wasn't thrilled with the claim) in exchange for another horse.

I worked hard on the horse even when he was turned out trying to fix a couple of things and when I did put him back in training the following year, he was a monster. He was training fantastic. When I started working him, I will admit - after the first work I started turning him about an eighth farther than what he was actually bellied down and working. I would turn in a half, but he was basically loping to from the half pole to the three-eighths before breaking off in earnest and working. I admit, I thought I had a chance to bring one back off a year plus layoff and a half-dozen terrible races and make some money. But, he was a route horse, so I was going to need plenty of works and I honestly didn't want ten blazing works on his form and he wasn't the sort of horse that you could just work slowly at will.

I got about four works on him before the outrider grabbed me and told me to turn either have the girl break him off earlier or turn in shorter works. He said something along the lines of "If you expect to see 1:04.3 on the sheet today, you'll be surprised." The clockers gave him the more telling half in forty six and change or whatever it was that day.

For the record, the jock that had been working him took off a mount for the leading trainer at the time to ride this horse when he finally ran. I had no shot of betting on him anyway because by then, the agent had run his mouth enough that even one of the previous trainers of the horse had stopped by over and over to buy him back. He opened at about 2-5 off a 20-1 morning line with zero of my dollars in the pool. He ran eighth or ninth of ten. :D :D He ran slightly better the next time. He ran about the same the third time and I gave him away. :D

[DeltaLover]

He opened at about 2-5 off a 20-1 morning line with zero of my dollars in the pool. He ran eighth or ninth of ten.

This is so cool :)

[chadk66]

Some Irish trainers feel that certain herbs are extremely effective in acting as broncholidators and others that strengthen the lungs. These herbs include Borage Herb, Buckwheat, Comfrey, Elecampane, Hawthorn, Kelp Powder, Marshmallow, Nettle, Rosehips, Rue, Yarrow, and Yellow Dock. Have you ever used any of them as feed additives?I've never used them as feed additives but I've used over the counter herbs like these that are put into a paste to administer four hours prior to race time for bleeders where I was racing where lasix wasn't allowed or my horses didn't meet the criteria to use lasix in that state. They worked quite well. When I trained, in canada at that time you were allowed to use a bronchial dialaters I believe it was called Ventipullem. Worked great also. The problem with using natural herbs as feed supplements is using the proper amount. there's not alot of information regarding this. and as with vitamins, more doesn't mean better. Proper feeding is an art/science. Anybody that thinks you can feed straight oats and grass hay and get the most out of their horses is living in a fantasy land. And if you could monitor every barn you'd be amazed how many barns feed every horse in the barn the same amount and same supplements. That is total idiocy.

[chadk66]

when we have a horse that is a non-sweater, we let them drink Guiness Beer, it works most of the time.haha, where was that guiness when I was trying to put some weight on a horse:D

[chadk66]

How you decide to claim a horse? Do you use any type of a speed figure to judge his ability? Do you rely on a spy who is monitoring the horse's behavior? Do you mostly rely on visual handicapping?

After claiming a complete 'lemon' what are your thoughts about its previous trainer? Do you believe it is ethical to run a crippled horse with only intention of it been claimed by an unsuspected trainer?

Have you ever ran a horse after a very short layoff and a very bad performance (without any excuses) and what was your intention for doing so? Do you think that it is normal a horse to be transformed within a week and from finishing dead last to win as a huge outsider?

Do you rely in betting to pay your bills?

Do you try to hide the form and ability of your horses (both in the morning and the afternoon) shooting for an upset?I never claimed alot of horses, maybe a dozen in the seven years I trained. Most were picked out by their owners and half were bad claims. 95% of my horses were bred and raised by their owners, bought at auction as yearlings, or I received them after the owners had poor success with another trainer. I really didn't promote claiming horses to my owners unless they were high end claimers in the 30k range from better tracks and I felt they could be allowance type horses where I was running. I claimed a couple horses myself that I knew had feet problems because I knew how to fix feet. Both I turned around and won a bunch of races with them. One was a filly that when retired produced two stakes horses right away.

I've ran half a dozen horses within five or six days after a poor performance. half of which were horses I tried on the grass for the first time and they didn't try a lick. Next day they were tearing down the barn because they left nothing on the track. Those three horses won their next out. The other three ran third or fourth if my memory serves.

As far as the lemon goes, it's part of the business unfortunately. I had two horses I claimed that were high claimers that had old suspensory legiment issues. Both re-injured those suspensory legiments and had to be retired. But there are alot of horses ran/claimed that are in pretty poor physical condition and sadly that's just the way the business is.

I basically never bet. Maybe a half dozen times I played one of my horses that I knew was a dead ringer and they had a decent price like 7/1 or 8/1. But betting wasn't something I did as a general rule.

I never hid my horses form from anybody. I mostly had allowance and stake type horses and like I said I rarely bet so I wasn't a game player.

[lamboguy]

I never claimed alot of horses, maybe a dozen in the seven years I trained. Most were picked out by their owners and half were bad claims. 95% of my horses were bred and raised by their owners, bought at auction as yearlings, or I received them after the owners had poor success with another trainer. I really didn't promote claiming horses to my owners unless they were high end claimers in the 30k range from better tracks and I felt they could be allowance type horses where I was running. I claimed a couple horses myself that I knew had feet problems because I knew how to fix feet. Both I turned around and won a bunch of races with them. One was a filly that when retired produced two stakes horses right away.

I've ran half a dozen horses within five or six days after a poor performance. half of which were horses I tried on the grass for the first time and they didn't try a lick. Next day they were tearing down the barn because they left nothing on the track. Those three horses won their next out. The other three ran third or fourth if my memory serves.

As far as the lemon goes, it's part of the business unfortunately. I had two horses I claimed that were high claimers that had old suspensory legiment issues. Both re-injured those suspensory legiments and had to be retired. But there are alot of horses ran/claimed that are in pretty poor physical condition and sadly that's just the way the business is.

I basically never bet. Maybe a half dozen times I played one of my horses that I knew was a dead ringer and they had a decent price like 7/1 or 8/1. But betting wasn't something I did as a general rule.

I never hid my horses form from anybody. I mostly had allowance and stake type horses and like I said I rarely bet so I wasn't a game player.you sound like my kind of a trainer, a guy with a head on his shoulders.

[Cannon shell]

Lasix causes calcium imbalance:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/78520/study-salix-can-lead-to-calcium-imbalance

In my post, I neither said "5 miles a day" nor "20+ miles of training a week".
Based on study using six 7 year old horses on treadmills done by an individual who makes and sells supplements for a living we are being told that the calcium absorption rates are slower than the sodium absorption rates for 72 hours. So for the 3 days after a race the % of calcium in a horses system is lower than normal. Uh ok.

You inferred that horses should regularly gallop between 2 and 5 miles a day did you not? Being that there are 7 days in the week...

[Cannon shell]

Some Irish trainers feel that certain herbs are extremely effective in acting as broncholidators and others that strengthen the lungs. These herbs include Borage Herb, Buckwheat, Comfrey, Elecampane, Hawthorn, Kelp Powder, Marshmallow, Nettle, Rosehips, Rue, Yarrow, and Yellow Dock. Have you ever used any of them as feed additives?
http://www.horsepowerherbs.com/

Cathy is very sharp

[Stillriledup]

Hey guys, what's your experience with horses who have EPM and do you think that is possible that could be one of the reasons for a new claim showing massive turnaround? (treating the EPM and spending the money that the previous barn might not have spent?)

[Cannon shell]

Hey guys, what's your experience with horses who have EPM and do you think that is possible that could be one of the reasons for a new claim showing massive turnaround? (treating the EPM and spending the money that the previous barn might not have spent?)
No question you could turn a horse around by treating for EPM.

[Cannon shell]

Sometime you don't have to do anything to get inaccurate information into the program/form.

Just look at Race 3 at Monmouth tomorrow:
If anyone actually believes that last 2 works on Brandon's Beach are accurate I have a bridge to sell you.

9 year old 7500 claimer runs 6/9, then listed 5 furlong work 3 days later on 6/12 101.54 (4 of 15) then listed work 5 days later 35.22 (1st of 6) then runs 5 days later on 6/22?

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Brandon's Beach wasn't the horse who actually worked those listed works.

[OCF]

I never claimed alot of horses, maybe a dozen in the seven years I trained. Most were picked out by their owners and half were bad claims. 95% of my horses were bred and raised by their owners, bought at auction as yearlings, or I received them after the owners had poor success with another trainer. I really didn't promote claiming horses to my owners unless they were high end claimers in the 30k range from better tracks and I felt they could be allowance type horses where I was running. I claimed a couple horses myself that I knew had feet problems because I knew how to fix feet. Both I turned around and won a bunch of races with them. One was a filly that when retired produced two stakes horses right away.

I've ran half a dozen horses within five or six days after a poor performance. half of which were horses I tried on the grass for the first time and they didn't try a lick. Next day they were tearing down the barn because they left nothing on the track. Those three horses won their next out. The other three ran third or fourth if my memory serves.

As far as the lemon goes, it's part of the business unfortunately. I had two horses I claimed that were high claimers that had old suspensory legiment issues. Both re-injured those suspensory legiments and had to be retired. But there are alot of horses ran/claimed that are in pretty poor physical condition and sadly that's just the way the business is.

I basically never bet. Maybe a half dozen times I played one of my horses that I knew was a dead ringer and they had a decent price like 7/1 or 8/1. But betting wasn't something I did as a general rule.

I never hid my horses form from anybody. I mostly had allowance and stake type horses and like I said I rarely bet so I wasn't a game player.

Thanks for this really interesting post.

One question - Why didn't you bet more? I get the sense you enjoyed competing for purses enough that betting wasn't that interesting to you.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Hey guys, what's your experience with horses who have EPM and do you think that is possible that could be one of the reasons for a new claim showing massive turnaround? (treating the EPM and spending the money that the previous barn might not have spent?)

Mike Gill was a big proponent of treating his claims for EPM.

[chadk66]

Thanks for this really interesting post.

One question - Why didn't you bet more? I get the sense you enjoyed competing for purses enough that betting wasn't that interesting to you.you know I'm not really sure. I really would get a knot in my gut when I bet even 20 bucks and lost. Loosing was just something I didn't enjoy whether is was loosing races or loosing money. I worked my ass off for my money and I just really hated throwing it away. I was a poor handicapper for numerous reasons probably. I'm a strange person, I didn't drink or bet :). I'm sure for most of you on the board it's a huge high to hit a big ticket. For me the only high I needed was winning races. The best week I had I won three in a row and four out of five. The other was a second. What was cooler is that they were mostly horses we bred and raised. There's nothing more spectacular than helping a mare foal and seeing grow up and two years later winning at the races.

[chadk66]

Sometime you don't have to do anything to get inaccurate information into the program/form.

Just look at Race 3 at Monmouth tomorrow:
If anyone actually believes that last 2 works on Brandon's Beach are accurate I have a bridge to sell you.

9 year old 7500 claimer runs 6/9, then listed 5 furlong work 3 days later on 6/12 101.54 (4 of 15) then listed work 5 days later 35.22 (1st of 6) then runs 5 days later on 6/22?

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Brandon's Beach wasn't the horse who actually worked those listed works.If you honestly knew how many times the published works are inaccurate you'd put zero faith in them. I cannot tell you how many times I had my own horses published wrong. Especially while working in company. They'd get them mixed up more times than not. And if you work after the break it's a very slim chance you'll get your horse actually timed because there are so many horses working on a fresh track. The clockers basically sit up there with each other and say "that looked like 36" and put it down without actually clocking it. That's why the few hard core gamblers I've met sit in the stands every morning with a radio and clock them for themselves. I had one owner that bet $500-$800 per race on most of the card. He knew all the jock agents and most of the barn help, etc. He bet based solely on tips from others. The dude hit a remarkable number of times. But I can't honestly say if he's ahead or behind at this point. But he's still doing it 20 plus years later so he can't be too far behind.

[railbird]

I have a question that has not been answered ..ever

.How would one be able to tell if a jockey volunteered ( or chose ) to ride a specific horse in a race when he rode other horses in that same race . who makes that decision the trainer or jockey.? in other words was the mount his first call or what ,how could you tell .Thanks

hope I made this understandable.

[chadk66]

Hey guys, what's your experience with horses who have EPM and do you think that is possible that could be one of the reasons for a new claim showing massive turnaround? (treating the EPM and spending the money that the previous barn might not have spent?)This was nothing that was ever talked about, treated for, etc. while I trained back in the 80's and early 90's. Not saying it didn't exist but it just wasn't something that was on anybody's radar then.

[VeryOldMan]

Sometime you don't have to do anything to get inaccurate information into the program/form.

Just look at Race 3 at Monmouth tomorrow:
If anyone actually believes that last 2 works on Brandon's Beach are accurate I have a bridge to sell you.

9 year old 7500 claimer runs 6/9, then listed 5 furlong work 3 days later on 6/12 101.54 (4 of 15) then listed work 5 days later 35.22 (1st of 6) then runs 5 days later on 6/22?

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Brandon's Beach wasn't the horse who actually worked those listed works.

Posts like this are why I love this thread. Reminded me as the inverse of the story about Seattle Slew before his debut (oops - just happened to be shown as a blazing workout by "Seattle Sue"):

http://www.clockerbob.com/chapter13.html

Back to the questions - what do trainers think about the current state of reported workouts? I've received advice (as a bettor) to pay attention to trainer pattern rather than time, to still pay attention to time, and to ignore them all together. Any insight on what to make of reported workouts in today's game? Does it vary by the level of the track - i.e., are reported workouts more kosher at places like Belmont and Santa Anita rather than a Charles Town? Wouldn't mind any quant guys chiming in whether workouts are part of the "black box" as the game is played today.

[Cannon shell]

I have a question that has not been answered ..ever

.How would one be able to tell if a jockey volunteered ( or chose ) to ride a specific horse in a race when he rode other horses in that same race . who makes that decision the trainer or jockey.? in other words was the mount his first call or what ,how could you tell .Thanks

hope I made this understandable.
Agent usually makes the call though with some veteran jocks they will seek their input. They generally will ride for the outfit they regularly ride for if the difference between horses chances isn't too big.

[johnhannibalsmith]

... who makes that decision the trainer or jockey.?...

Could be either one or maybe even an agent with minimal input from either his jock or even the trainer. I don't think that there is a bona fide method to get the answer you are hoping for from afar. Often you can probably make an educated guess if a trainer had enough of one jock and went to another or if a jock opted for a lesser horse over a better one because of his relationship with a particular trainer or things along those lines. But, knowing for sure whether a jock decided to ride horseA over horseB or if his agent made the call or if the trainer of horseB just decided against riding that jock again... short of being able to get first hand information from the parties involved, the best you can probably hope for in many cases is a clue that might lead to a best guess... if I'm getting to the heart of the inquiry here.

[Cannon shell]

Posts like this are why I love this thread. Reminded me as the inverse of the story about Seattle Slew before his debut (oops - just happened to be shown as a blazing workout by "Seattle Sue"):

http://www.clockerbob.com/chapter13.html

Back to the questions - what do trainers think about the current state of reported workouts? I've received advice (as a bettor) to pay attention to trainer pattern rather than time, to still pay attention to time, and to ignore them all together. Any insight on what to make of reported workouts in today's game? Does it vary by the level of the track - i.e., are reported workouts more kosher at places like Belmont and Santa Anita rather than a Charles Town? Wouldn't mind any quant guys chiming in whether workouts are part of the "black box" as the game is played today.
Clocking horses is a hard job that has early hours and lousy pay. However in a game where technical aspects are being refined more and more the clocking of horses is still very primitive and in many places (PARX!!!) quite inaccurate. At some point in the future the US tracks may install a GPS/Trackus system like they have in Hong Kong at Sha Tin and the clocking of horses will become far more accurate as each horses is timed every day regardless of what they are doing. Obviously no American track is going to spend money on this system until the demand is there so I wouldn't hold my breath

[johnhannibalsmith]

... Does it vary by the level of the track - i.e., are reported workouts more kosher at places like Belmont and Santa Anita rather than a Charles Town? Wouldn't mind any quant guys chiming in whether workouts are part of the "black box" as the game is played today.

I would definitely opine that it varies significantly from track to track. There are places that are simply awful in every way and others that are pretty damn good in every way.

[Stillriledup]

Clocking horses is a hard job that has early hours and lousy pay. However in a game where technical aspects are being refined more and more the clocking of horses is still very primitive and in many places (PARX!!!) quite inaccurate. At some point in the future the US tracks may install a GPS/Trackus system like they have in Hong Kong at Sha Tin and the clocking of horses will become far more accurate as each horses is timed every day regardless of what they are doing. Obviously no American track is going to spend money on this system until the demand is there so I wouldn't hold my breath

All a track needs to do is require the name of the horse on the saddlepad. When Breeders Cup horses work, they are all identified by the purple BC engraved pad, i know its an extra expense, but once a horse has his pad with his name on it, they could require any sold or claimed horse to come with the 'pad' as sort of like a 'pink slip' you get when selling a car.

This way, the works will be much more accurate as the clockers will actually know who's working most of the time.

Also, this would be a huge help for fans of the game to go to the track in the morning to see horses they might possibly invest on in the afternoon, work out.

The tracks just assume that people will bet big money on horses without having seen them train....i think betting handles would go up if bettors knew that horses had saddle pads and the workouts were a lot more accurate.

[OCF]

you know I'm not really sure. I really would get a knot in my gut when I bet even 20 bucks and lost. Loosing was just something I didn't enjoy whether is was loosing races or loosing money. I worked my ass off for my money and I just really hated throwing it away. I was a poor handicapper for numerous reasons probably. I'm a strange person, I didn't drink or bet :). I'm sure for most of you on the board it's a huge high to hit a big ticket. For me the only high I needed was winning races. The best week I had I won three in a row and four out of five. The other was a second. What was cooler is that they were mostly horses we bred and raised. There's nothing more spectacular than helping a mare foal and seeing grow up and two years later winning at the races.

I hope I didn't convey that I thought you should have been betting more. Actually its just the opposite, if I could compete for purses I would like to think I wouldn't be very interested in betting.

[Cannon shell]

All a track needs to do is require the name of the horse on the saddlepad. When Breeders Cup horses work, they are all identified by the purple BC engraved pad, i know its an extra expense, but once a horse has his pad with his name on it, they could require any sold or claimed horse to come with the 'pad' as sort of like a 'pink slip' you get when selling a car.

This way, the works will be much more accurate as the clockers will actually know who's working most of the time.

Also, this would be a huge help for fans of the game to go to the track in the morning to see horses they might possibly invest on in the afternoon, work out.

The tracks just assume that people will bet big money on horses without having seen them train....i think betting handles would go up if bettors knew that horses had saddle pads and the workouts were a lot more accurate.
The obvious issue is that the correct saddle cloth being on the right horse. In HK they have the GPS device actually sewn in the saddle cloth which has a number on it which is assigned to each horse. I asked my friend who is a trainer there what happens if you get caught switching saddle cloths. He said never happened but 6 months in jail most likely. Real jail. Different place China.

[johnhannibalsmith]

All a track needs to do is require the name of the horse on the saddlepad. When Breeders Cup horses work, they are all identified by the purple BC engraved pad, i know its an extra expense, but once a horse has his pad with his name on it, they could require any sold or claimed horse to come with the 'pad' as sort of like a 'pink slip' you get when selling a car.

This way, the works will be much more accurate as the clockers will actually know who's working most of the time.

...

Are you going to staple the pad to the correct horse?

[Stillriledup]

The obvious issue is that the correct saddle cloth being on the right horse. In HK they have the GPS device actually sewn in the saddle cloth which has a number on it which is assigned to each horse. I asked my friend who is a trainer there what happens if you get caught switching saddle cloths. He said never happened but 6 months in jail most likely. Real jail. Different place China.

Wow, that's incredible.

[johnhannibalsmith]

The obvious issue is that the correct saddle cloth being on the right horse. ....

:D

Oooops, should have read ahead to the next page.

[Stillriledup]

Are you going to staple the pad to the correct horse?

Just hoping trainers would be honest and go on the honor system. Is that too much to hope for?

[johnhannibalsmith]

Just hoping trainers would be honest and go on the honor system. Is that too much to hope for?

If it weren't, you wouldn't need the saddle pad, right?

[Cannon shell]

I have a funny story about saddle cloths. My first year as a trainer I went to Saratoga with a dozen or so horses and was stabled in the steeplechase annex prior to the meet beginning. So I had these new white saddle cloths with my initials in red CES on them. One day I was standing at the rail by the Oklahoma training track and Jonathon Sheppard was watching his horses a few feet away. As my horse walks by he comments on the saddle towels and says would you mind giving me one? So I say sure no problem and walk back to the barn wondering why the hell Jonathon Sheppard wants one of my saddle towels? I'm thinking could he have a hot one over there and wants to hide him from the clockers which would be about the most out of character thing you'd ever imagine him doing. So I grab a new one and bring it over to his barn and drop it off. So its killing me wondering why so I walk back over when he returns from training. He says thank you so much and laughs saying you probably wonder what I want with your saddle towel. So I said um yeah I was kind of wondering. He said that his mother's initials were CES and her favorite colors were red and white and she'd love it. I laughed and no didn't mention my thought of a possible betting coup!

[Cannon shell]

Just hoping trainers would be honest and go on the honor system. Is that too much to hope for?
Yeah pretty much that and incompetent help

[OCF]

Wow, that's incredible.

Yes it is, But i say good for them. i don't why we legally sanction gambling on horses here and then shrug our shoulders at fraud. I'm guilty of it myself, shrugging my shoulders at it, that is.

Great anecdote about HK.

[VeryOldMan]

I have a funny story about saddle cloths. My first year as a trainer I went to Saratoga with a dozen or so horses and was stabled in the steeplechase annex prior to the meet beginning. So I had these new white saddle cloths with my initials in red CES on them. One day I was standing at the rail by the Oklahoma training track and Jonathon Sheppard was watching his horses a few feet away. As my horse walks by he comments on the saddle towels and says would you mind giving me one? So I say sure no problem and walk back to the barn wondering why the hell Jonathon Sheppard wants one of my saddle towels? I'm thinking could he have a hot one over there and wants to hide him from the clockers which would be about the most out of character thing you'd ever imagine him doing. So I grab a new one and bring it over to his barn and drop it off. So its killing me wondering why so I walk back over when he returns from training. He says thank you so much and laughs saying you probably wonder what I want with your saddle towel. So I said um yeah I was kind of wondering. He said that his mother's initials were CES and her favorite colors were red and white and she'd love it. I laughed and no didn't mention my thought of a possible betting coup!

Great story! I sure hope this thread continues with trainer insight and stories like this.

[Stillriledup]

I have a funny story about saddle cloths. My first year as a trainer I went to Saratoga with a dozen or so horses and was stabled in the steeplechase annex prior to the meet beginning. So I had these new white saddle cloths with my initials in red CES on them. One day I was standing at the rail by the Oklahoma training track and Jonathon Sheppard was watching his horses a few feet away. As my horse walks by he comments on the saddle towels and says would you mind giving me one? So I say sure no problem and walk back to the barn wondering why the hell Jonathon Sheppard wants one of my saddle towels? I'm thinking could he have a hot one over there and wants to hide him from the clockers which would be about the most out of character thing you'd ever imagine him doing. So I grab a new one and bring it over to his barn and drop it off. So its killing me wondering why so I walk back over when he returns from training. He says thank you so much and laughs saying you probably wonder what I want with your saddle towel. So I said um yeah I was kind of wondering. He said that his mother's initials were CES and her favorite colors were red and white and she'd love it. I laughed and no didn't mention my thought of a possible betting coup!

Wow, that's fantastic, i lol'd reading that.

[chadk66]

I have a question that has not been answered ..ever

.How would one be able to tell if a jockey volunteered ( or chose ) to ride a specific horse in a race when he rode other horses in that same race . who makes that decision the trainer or jockey.? in other words was the mount his first call or what ,how could you tell .Thanks

hope I made this understandable.in the majority of the cases it's probably the jockey's agent making that decision. sometimes they have an obligation to ride a horse for a trainer because they ride the majority in their barn, the trainer may have specifically asked for his service and told the agent if he didn't ride this horse he may not be riding any others, the jockey may also have told his agent he wanted back on this particular horse no matter what the circumstances. There's a bunch of different scenarios. But for the handicapper there really isn't any certainty why. So you have to piece things together. does the rider ride alot of horses for this trainer. how many mounts has he gotten from the other trainers in the race in the past, etc. etc.

[chadk66]

I hope I didn't convey that I thought you should have been betting more. Actually its just the opposite, if I could compete for purses I would like to think I wouldn't be very interested in betting.I didn't take it that way at all.:ThmbUp:

[chadk66]

Just hoping trainers would be honest and go on the honor system. Is that too much to hope for?well actually in alot of cases it is:ThmbDown:

[chadk66]

I have a funny story about saddle cloths. My first year as a trainer I went to Saratoga with a dozen or so horses and was stabled in the steeplechase annex prior to the meet beginning. So I had these new white saddle cloths with my initials in red CES on them. One day I was standing at the rail by the Oklahoma training track and Jonathon Sheppard was watching his horses a few feet away. As my horse walks by he comments on the saddle towels and says would you mind giving me one? So I say sure no problem and walk back to the barn wondering why the hell Jonathon Sheppard wants one of my saddle towels? I'm thinking could he have a hot one over there and wants to hide him from the clockers which would be about the most out of character thing you'd ever imagine him doing. So I grab a new one and bring it over to his barn and drop it off. So its killing me wondering why so I walk back over when he returns from training. He says thank you so much and laughs saying you probably wonder what I want with your saddle towel. So I said um yeah I was kind of wondering. He said that his mother's initials were CES and her favorite colors were red and white and she'd love it. I laughed and no didn't mention my thought of a possible betting coup!great story.

[Tom]

I have a trainer question - or a rider question.
How far back, in a race, can a horse be and still be considered to be "pressing?"
If the leading horse cannot hear or see the horse, does it matter where he is? If a horse is out in front by a length, does he know another horse is right behind him, or does it take 2-3 lengths to be out of ear shot?

The idea that a presser puts some kind of pressure on the lead, maybe not in terms of speed, forcing him to run faster, but in terms of anxiety (?) or stress?
We hear of horses getting comfortable on an easy lead, does it work the other way as well? A horse expends energy through stress rather than through speed?
I have my theories, but as long as we're askin'..........

[Stillriledup]

I have a trainer question - or a rider question.
How far back, in a race, can a horse be and still be considered to be "pressing?"
If the leading horse cannot hear or see the horse, does it matter where he is? If a horse is out in front by a length, does he know another horse is right behind him, or does it take 2-3 lengths to be out of ear shot?

The idea that a presser puts some kind of pressure on the lead, maybe not in terms of speed, forcing him to run faster, but in terms of anxiety (?) or stress?
We hear of horses getting comfortable on an easy lead, does it work the other way as well? A horse expends energy through stress rather than through speed?
I have my theories, but as long as we're askin'..........

Great question. I'll add that it seems to me that if two horses are head and head, even if they are going REALLY slow and both under nice holds, that the horse on the inside feels "pressed" even though he's going really slow and not having to work hard to hold the lead. Maybe the "pressure" of the other horse breathing on the leaders neck is enough to make the leading horse "uncomfortable" and that discomfort, as minor as it may be, causes the leading horse to burn more energy than he would if he was free running (while going equally as slow).

[chadk66]

I have a trainer question - or a rider question.
How far back, in a race, can a horse be and still be considered to be "pressing?"
If the leading horse cannot hear or see the horse, does it matter where he is? If a horse is out in front by a length, does he know another horse is right behind him, or does it take 2-3 lengths to be out of ear shot?

The idea that a presser puts some kind of pressure on the lead, maybe not in terms of speed, forcing him to run faster, but in terms of anxiety (?) or stress?
We hear of horses getting comfortable on an easy lead, does it work the other way as well? A horse expends energy through stress rather than through speed?
I have my theories, but as long as we're askin'..........In reality there's really no answer to that question. What pressure is to one horse may be fun and games to another. It basically boils down to the horse in the lead. In fact the horse in third or fourth may feel more pressure than a horse that's head to head in the lead. Not only is that horse headed he's getting dirt kicked on him. So in reality it boils down to the horse and how they handle any given situation.

[Clocker]

What pressure is to one horse may be fun and games to another. It basically boils down to the horse in the lead.

I read an article about animal behavior recently that said that for horses in the wild, running in a pack is a defensive tactic against predators. Alpha type horses want to be on the lead in such a situation. But the safest place to be in in the middle of the pack, so that's where some horses want to be by their nature. Don't know how hard it is to train a horse to run contrary to its personal instinct.

[chadk66]

I read an article about animal behavior recently that said that for horses in the wild, running in a pack is a defensive tactic against predators. Alpha type horses want to be on the lead in such a situation. But the safest place to be in in the middle of the pack, so that's where some horses want to be by their nature. Don't know how hard it is to train a horse to run contrary to its personal instinct.that's the trick as a trainer, finding where the horse likes to be settled in during a race. I've had some horses that had to be on the lead. I've also had some that had to be ten to fifteen out of it up the backside. Sometimes you discover this by accident like when a horse you've always ran as a stalker stumbles at the start. The jock just settles in way in the back and at the 3/8 pole grabs two more gears. I had a horse that won a stakes race going a mile and a sixteenth. You see him break from the gate then you never see him again on the screen until the last two strides at the wire. He was twenty out of it up the backside.

[Clocker]

I also read something, I think it was in one of Quinn's books, about a Jockey Club study. They took a huge sample of registered horses, like 10 years worth, and found that 55% of thoroughbreds registered to race retire from racing as maidens.

Sounds like a lot of them like the safety of the middle of the pack. Or are just born slow.

[chadk66]

I also read something, I think it was in one of Quinn's books, about a Jockey Club study. They took a huge sample of registered horses, like 10 years worth, and found that 55% of thoroughbreds registered to race retire from racing as maidens.

Sounds like a lot of them like the safety of the middle of the pack. Or are just born slow.that number is about right. the number that never race is also very high. If I recall it's around 25%.

[cj]

Just as a trainer wouldn't ask me about training, I wouldn't ask a trainer about handicapping.

[Cannon shell]

I have a trainer question - or a rider question.
How far back, in a race, can a horse be and still be considered to be "pressing?"
If the leading horse cannot hear or see the horse, does it matter where he is? If a horse is out in front by a length, does he know another horse is right behind him, or does it take 2-3 lengths to be out of ear shot?

The idea that a presser puts some kind of pressure on the lead, maybe not in terms of speed, forcing him to run faster, but in terms of anxiety (?) or stress?
We hear of horses getting comfortable on an easy lead, does it work the other way as well? A horse expends energy through stress rather than through speed?
I have my theories, but as long as we're askin'..........
Depends on the horse in question would be the best guess.
Some horses run better when they are allowed to run freely, away from others. I guess Precious Passion would be a good example of that.

Horses hear a lot better than they see so when a horse is within a few lengths of them they do hear them even if they have blinkers on that don't allow them to see them. One of the keys to success for any horse is to be taught properly from when they are first broke to saddle so that they learn to listen to their rider and play off of their cues. Far too often owners send their horses to be broke at the cheapest place they can find and they usually get what they pay for. Ultimately what you want is a horse that is willing to have confidence in their rider and do what they ask for, not fight against them or just run out of fear. While the training of thoroughbreds is far different than horses that do dressage the fact is that horses will listen to their cues if trained properly as dressage horses prove.

There is no doubt that a lot of horses won't relax or settle nearly as well when another horse is exerting pressure. What we can't hear is often the rider of the horse that is putting the pressure on is also yelling, chirping or whistling which will also make the lead horse that much less relaxed and more willing to go too fast. I also think that horses that are inbetween horses while being asked to run are under more stress than those with just one side covered.

[OCF]

Another trainer question - to what degree would you try to keep tabs on horses trained by other trainers at your track? Specifically I have in mind horses you believe might be entered against horses you are training. Might you for example try to watch them work out?

The other day there was a race with a fair number of trainer scratches and one of the remaining horses won rather impressively. It was tempting to believe the word got around that the winner was sitting on a big race and some of the trainers decided to duck him.

[Cannon shell]

Another trainer question - to what degree would you try to keep tabs on horses trained by other trainers at your track? Specifically I have in mind horses you believe might be entered against horses you are training. Might you for example try to watch them work out?

The other day there was a race with a fair number of trainer scratches and one of the remaining horses won rather impressively. It was tempting to believe the word got around that the winner was sitting on a big race and some of the trainers decided to duck him.
Like the answer to most of the other questions it depends.

Sure when you are at the track watching horses go you watch other guys horses too. You get to know some of the ones in other barns

[Stillriledup]

Another trainer question - to what degree would you try to keep tabs on horses trained by other trainers at your track? Specifically I have in mind horses you believe might be entered against horses you are training. Might you for example try to watch them work out?

The other day there was a race with a fair number of trainer scratches and one of the remaining horses won rather impressively. It was tempting to believe the word got around that the winner was sitting on a big race and some of the trainers decided to duck him.

If you have a good horse, like a graded stakes runner, you are keenly aware of where the "leaders" in your division are going to race, especially if a leader of that division is a virtually unbeatable horse.

[Cannon shell]

If you have a good horse, like a graded stakes runner, you are keenly aware of where the "leaders" in your division are going to race, especially if a leader of that division is a virtually unbeatable horse.
A lot of them are keenly aware because they are in the same barn

[Quesmark]

Tongue ties are an example of equiptment which isn't listed in the program,or race forms,what effect do they have,and what other external devices can be used to boost an individual horse's performance[eg.shadow roll,various shoe configurations,etc].

[Cannon shell]

Tongue ties are an example of equiptment which isn't listed in the program,or race forms,what effect do they have,and what other external devices can be used to boost an individual horse's performance[eg.shadow roll,various shoe configurations,etc].
Tongue ties are used by almost every horse now though many don't need them. Devil his Due was an example of a horse that actually raced better without it. While there are some horses that absolutely need it most don't but get it anyway.

Shadow Rolls can help drop a horses head a little and also might be able to deflect a little kickback from getting in a horses eyes and of course do a decent job of shielding shadows. I dont think that a shadow roll on or off would be significant. A ton of horses nowdays use figure 8's which are a form of noseband that goes in front of and behind the bit. 20 years ago very few horses used them. Can be helpful but again don't think that you could make much of a case that it is a significant change in most horses. Sometimes horses with breathing issues use them though IMO their use in that manner is very overrated.

Nasal Strips can help bleeders but again I dont know that you can use the information in an effective manner.

The new shoe rules that are used now dont allow for much variety outside of grass shoes without toe grabs and dirt shoes with them plus bar shoes. One advantage a MTO might have over a turf horse in an off the turf race (other than the obvious) is that depending on when the race was taken off, the turf horses might have still turf shoes on in the case of the blacksmith not being around in the afternoon to change them while the dirt horse will have toe grabs which is a definite advantage on the dirt especially in the mud.

[lamboguy]

I have a trainer question - or a rider question.
How far back, in a race, can a horse be and still be considered to be "pressing?"
If the leading horse cannot hear or see the horse, does it matter where he is? If a horse is out in front by a length, does he know another horse is right behind him, or does it take 2-3 lengths to be out of ear shot?

The idea that a presser puts some kind of pressure on the lead, maybe not in terms of speed, forcing him to run faster, but in terms of anxiety (?) or stress?
We hear of horses getting comfortable on an easy lead, does it work the other way as well? A horse expends energy through stress rather than through speed?
I have my theories, but as long as we're askin'..........this is the best question i have ever seen on this board. the way i look at horse racing is that its very similar to a boxing match. since not all horses can not be near the lead most of the time, a presser can have just as much effect being in the second or 3rd flight of the race. whenever i handicap, i try to pay more attention to the horses that are going to be off the lead and dream up some type of position that they might be in. if i conclude a horse might get an easy trip in the second or third flight, i often play that horse. this is a great way to pick horses because you can usually get big value on those types.

[Mineshaft]

I won't buy the alfalfa claim. I had fewer bleeders than any trainer on the track when I was training. I fed straight alfalfa to all my horses. alfalfa is the premier forage for race horses. A horse will use less energy to convert alfalfa to energy than any other forage available. I did a ton of experimenting with feeds and have learned some amazing things. I designed my own feed (sweet feed) and had it made at a local mill. I studied horse nutrition in college and derived what I felt was the best food for these animals. I also cooked my oats for evening feeding every day. I never had a bad eater which says alot. After smelling those cooking oats all day those horses about tore the tub off the wall at night.




Too much alfalfa will cause a horse to bleed. True fact. All horses are different so one might not bleed to an overage of alfalfa where as the other one might bleed due to an overage of alfalfa.

[Stillriledup]

Question for the panel. Assuming that nothing nefarious is going on underneath the lasix, how do you think that first time lasix affects a horse to make him or her race better? Is there more than meets the eye? Does lasix help a horse "breathe better"? My guess would be that lasix "Dries up" the mucus in the nose and throat and helps that horse just breathe better and that's why they race better....but, maybe its more than this? Maybe there's more to it?

[Saratoga_Mike]

SRU - really sounds like you're describing clenbuterol

[Mineshaft]

SRU - really sounds like you're describing clenbuterol



Yep u probably right..

[Stillriledup]

SRU - really sounds like you're describing clenbuterol

I know that "clem" is a "wonder drug" but i have noticed that sometimes FTL moves horses up dramatically and i was wondering if its anything more than just helping the breathing.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I know that "clem" is a "wonder drug" but i have noticed that sometimes FTL moves horses up dramatically and i was wondering if its anything more than just helping the breathing.

If a horse is truly bleeding, it is a wonder drug. But that isn't what you mean - you should read Andy Beyer's writing about Lasix and when it first appeared on the scene in Maryland (he would agree with your observation).

[chadk66]

Too much alfalfa will cause a horse to bleed. True fact. All horses are different so one might not bleed to an overage of alfalfa where as the other one might bleed due to an overage of alfalfa.and which clinical trial did you get this information from?

[chadk66]

Question for the panel. Assuming that nothing nefarious is going on underneath the lasix, how do you think that first time lasix affects a horse to make him or her race better? Is there more than meets the eye? Does lasix help a horse "breathe better"? My guess would be that lasix "Dries up" the mucus in the nose and throat and helps that horse just breathe better and that's why they race better....but, maybe its more than this? Maybe there's more to it?bleeding prevents horses from running to their full potential. some worse than others. lasix prevents the bleeding and allows the horse to run to it's potential. and that's it. doesn't make them faster than their god given ability. basically a first time lasix horse will hit the quarter pole and think to himself "holy crap so this is what it feels like to breath normally at the head of the lane" lol.

[Stillriledup]

bleeding prevents horses from running to their full potential. some worse than others. lasix prevents the bleeding and allows the horse to run to it's potential. and that's it. doesn't make them faster than their god given ability. basically a first time lasix horse will hit the quarter pole and think to himself "holy crap so this is what it feels like to breath normally at the head of the lane" lol.

Hmmm, i guess my brain just goes to the default mechanism that says what you see is "the horse" and anything better is improvement. But, this angle suggests that what i'm seeing is NOT how good the horse can be, and the "improvement" is really not necessarily improvement as much as its just getting back to square one in the first place. That makes a lot of sense.

[Mineshaft]

and which clinical trial did you get this information from?





I've talked to numerous vets and they have said the same thing. Depending on the horse if it gets too much alfalfa it could possible lead to bleeding. It might not bleed but the chances are greater if it gets too much alfalfa.

[chadk66]

Hmmm, i guess my brain just goes to the default mechanism that says what you see is "the horse" and anything better is improvement. But, this angle suggests that what i'm seeing is NOT how good the horse can be, and the "improvement" is really not necessarily improvement as much as its just getting back to square one in the first place. That makes a lot of sense.exactly. that's a very common concept most people have regarding lasix. A horse can only run as fast as he was created to run unless he's on some drug that can enhance his/her god given ability. lasix just isn't one of those drugs. I've had horses that were great runners for a couple years and suddenly started stopping down the lane. they couldn't beat horses they normally handled quite easily. we were able to get them on lasix (back then it was not easy to do) and they returned to their normal talent instantly. you don't get to see this now because such a high percentage run on lasix due to the rules on lasix now verses twenty years ago.

[chadk66]

I've talked to numerous vets and they have said the same thing. Depending on the horse if it gets too much alfalfa it could possible lead to bleeding. It might not bleed but the chances are greater if it gets too much alfalfa.that's what I figured there are no clinical trials to back this up. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but vets are as guilty at starting "old wives tales" as just about anybody in the business. why? because they have to have an answer to the question from an owner/trainer to why is my horse bleeding. yes, they basically make shit up. It's no different than now days having such an insane percentage of kids on ridilin. parents take their kids to the shrink and demand the kid be changed. so the shrink says "oh no worries mrs. Johnson, your kid has adhd this ridilin will straighten him out". I can promise you the alfalfa theory you heard is total hog wash. I ran my horses on straight alfalfa from day one and had the lowest percentage of bleeders of any trainer I know.

[Stillriledup]

exactly. that's a very common concept most people have regarding lasix. A horse can only run as fast as he was created to run unless he's on some drug that can enhance his/her god given ability. lasix just isn't one of those drugs. I've had horses that were great runners for a couple years and suddenly started stopping down the lane. they couldn't beat horses they normally handled quite easily. we were able to get them on lasix (back then it was not easy to do) and they returned to their normal talent instantly. you don't get to see this now because such a high percentage run on lasix due to the rules on lasix now verses twenty years ago.

I had this dilemma in the Belmont Stakes, i loved that horse who finished 4th, he had no lasix and if he would have been FTL for that race, i would have made a large play, but without lasix, how can you really make a serious play on a horse like that?

[Mineshaft]

that's what I figured there are no clinical trials to back this up. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but vets are as guilty at starting "old wives tales" as just about anybody in the business. why? because they have to have an answer to the question from an owner/trainer to why is my horse bleeding. yes, they basically make shit up. It's no different than now days having such an insane percentage of kids on ridilin. parents take their kids to the shrink and demand the kid be changed. so the shrink says "oh no worries mrs. Johnson, your kid has adhd this ridilin will straighten him out". I can promise you the alfalfa theory you heard is total hog wash. I ran my horses on straight alfalfa from day one and had the lowest percentage of bleeders of any trainer I know.





I didn't say every horse would bleed from an overage of alfalfa. You probably treated ur horses the right way for a bleeder or took precautions from a horse bleeding. You can believe its hogwash I do not, I do think there is some merit to it.

When I mean an overage of alfalfa im talking about feeding a horse too much every day. Not just one day out the week

[Magister Ludi]

that's what I figured there are no clinical trials to back this up. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but vets are as guilty at starting "old wives tales" as just about anybody in the business. why? because they have to have an answer to the question from an owner/trainer to why is my horse bleeding. yes, they basically make shit up. It's no different than now days having such an insane percentage of kids on ridilin. parents take their kids to the shrink and demand the kid be changed. so the shrink says "oh no worries mrs. Johnson, your kid has adhd this ridilin will straighten him out". I can promise you the alfalfa theory you heard is total hog wash. I ran my horses on straight alfalfa from day one and had the lowest percentage of bleeders of any trainer I know.

I agree with you, Mr. K. IAD (Inflammatory Airway Disease) in horses can be caused by fungal spores in "clean" hay. IAD is an equine allergic condition which exacerbates EIPH. A horse with IAD should have his diet changed from hay to alfalfa.

[Jeff P]

I've read that a typical dose of lasix will cause an 1100 lb horse to flush about 40 lbs of water weight (or roughly 4% of its body mass) from its system.

Q. Is this true?

If not, how much water weight does a typical dose of lasix cause a horse to flush from its system?

And if true, does the loss of say 40 lbs of water weight, or 4% of total body mass, enable a horse to cover 8f of ground in faster time than if it had to navigate the same course while carrying its natural body weight?



jp

.

[Magister Ludi]

I've read that a typical dose of lasix will cause an 1100 lb horse to flush about 40 lbs of water weight (or roughly 4% of its body mass) from its system.

Q. Is this true? Closer to an average of 2% pre-race (3.5% post-race).

If not, how much water weight does a typical dose of lasix cause a horse to flush from its system?

And if true, does the loss of say 40 lbs of water weight, or 4% of total body mass, enable a horse to cover 8f of ground in faster time than if it had to navigate the same course while carrying its natural body weight?
At a distance of 8f, delta(weight)/delta(lengths) = 2.8. 2% x 1100 lbs = 22 lbs

22 lbs/2.8 lbs/length = nearly 8 lengths



jp

.

`

[chadk66]

I didn't say every horse would bleed from an overage of alfalfa. You probably treated ur horses the right way for a bleeder or took precautions from a horse bleeding. You can believe its hogwash I do not, I do think there is some merit to it.

When I mean an overage of alfalfa im talking about feeding a horse too much every day. Not just one day out the weeknot to stick another wrench in your tire but my horses had hay bags full in front of them 24/7. you certainly have the right to believe what you wish, but I have to tell you if alfalfa had even a smidgeon of cause of bleeding there would be clinical trials by the dozen to expose this. bleeding has been the most up front issue in race horses since forever. you can be rest assured it would have been a huge topic with even a morsal of truth behind it.

[chadk66]

I agree with you, Mr. K. IAD (Inflammatory Airway Disease) in horses can be caused by fungal spores in "clean" hay. IAD is an equine allergic condition which exacerbates EIPH. A horse with IAD should have his diet changed from hay to alfalfa.alfalfa is hay. all types of hay are forage. a horse with IAD should probably be taken of all types of hay and put on a diet of something like rely or respond. which is a beat pulp based feed which meets all their forage needs with zero dust. It's fed to them free choice meaning you build up to them having a full feed tub all the time so they can eat as much as desired. This type feed is used in horses with the heaves also. I had a couple I switched to this and had excellent results. On our farm we raised our own alfalfa so we could control the quality. We baled approx. 3,000 bales a year and I used that hay at cby in the summer. had to switch to vendors hay when I was out of state. hay quality varies like you wouldn't believe. I've had hay so bad I had to run a fan through it while I broke it up and put into hay bags to ensure there was very little dust.

[Jeff P]

BloodHorse.com article from Feb 2009

If I Was a Horseman - by E. Abraham Ola:
http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/finalturn/archive/2009/02/10/If-I-Was-a-Horseman.aspx

Thoughts?


-jp

.

[Magister Ludi]

BloodHorse.com article from Feb 2009

If I Was a Horseman - by E. Abraham Ola:
http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/finalturn/archive/2009/02/10/If-I-Was-a-Horseman.aspx

Thoughts?


-jp

.

Beautiful. You ARE a horseman, Mr. Ola.

[chadk66]

BloodHorse.com article from Feb 2009

If I Was a Horseman - by E. Abraham Ola:
http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/finalturn/archive/2009/02/10/If-I-Was-a-Horseman.aspx

Thoughts?


-jp

.for the most part he has some very valid points. some of which are completely impractical while keeping horses on the track. he seems to forget the track leans to the left ;)

[lamboguy]

anyone that is a large owner and doesn't have a racing manager in this game is out of his mind. the last thing anyone would ever want to do is let a trainer make all the decisions all by himself. most of these trainers are lucky to have licenses and could never get a job in the real world. i have dealt with trainers for over 40 years now, my partner who is a hall of famer in this game would say the same thing.

[Mineshaft]

what do u mean by large owner? 20 horses? 50 horses?

[lamboguy]

what do u mean by large owner? 20 horses? 50 horses?
a guy that puts any type of money into this game and is looking for results. the racing manager better be a good one too that looks out for the owners interests and not the trainer's.

[Saratoga_Mike]

a guy that puts any type of money into this game and is looking for results. the racing manager better be a good one too that looks out for the owners interests and not the trainer's.

It depends - if the owner is retired and owns 40 or 50 horses and understands a lot about racing and horses, there's no need for a racing mgr. I'd never hire one.

[Mineshaft]

I would never hire one neither even if I wasn't retired.

[lamboguy]

I would never hire one neither even if I wasn't retired.you can compare the need for a manager to a jock agent. the good jockey's need agents, the bad one don't have agents. the good owners all have racing managers today. the Krasners who have been in the business for years and are very smart people have racing managers. i don't think those people are stupid by any means. i deal with some big owners that have managers as well and they are very successful.

[chadk66]

a guy that puts any type of money into this game and is looking for results. the racing manager better be a good one too that looks out for the owners interests and not the trainer's.anybody that's putting that kind of money/investment into horses better be calling the shots along with his trainer. If the racing manager doesn't have a large amount of skin in the game he's a liability not an asset. I dealt with numerous large partnerships with silent partners and a manager. major bad deal. and on top of that, you don't get to educate the silent partners and get them into the game on their own as a general rule.

[chadk66]

you can compare the need for a manager to a jock agent. the good jockey's need agents, the bad one don't have agents. the good owners all have racing managers today. the Krasners who have been in the business for years and are very smart people have racing managers. i don't think those people are stupid by any means. i deal with some big owners that have managers as well and they are very successful.jockey's have agents because they don't have the time to hustle mounts nor do they have the desire. You can have a partnership spokesperson that deals with the trainer on a regular basis, that's fine because the trainer doesn't have the time to deal with all the owners every day. but the big decisions need to be made by the whole partnership. The big operations with managers you speak of are doing that because they have so many horses and don't have the time to look after things as needed. But you can bet the ultimate/tough decisions aren't being made by the racing manager.

[northerndancer]

Racing Manager.....

Yes if you are an owner from overseas then having a presence on the ground can be beneficial;

Yes if you have a larger enough operation. For example Mike Rogers of Adena Springs was an outstanding racing manager for Frank Stronach;

No way if you are a group of individuals who have come together to own a few horses. You do not need the layer of cost and being shielded from the information flow which will allow you to develop your foundation knowledge;

[lamboguy]

Racing Manager.....

Yes if you are an owner from overseas then having a presence on the ground can be beneficial;

Yes if you have a larger enough operation. For example Mike Rogers of Adena Springs was an outstanding racing manager for Frank Stronach;

No way if you are a group of individuals who have come together to own a few horses. You do not need the layer of cost and being shielded from the information flow which will allow you to develop your foundation knowledge;i agree with that. when i sell horses to the big guys, there is always a racing manager involved that do a great job.

[TurfRuler]

How would a trainer describe the form cycle of thoroughbreds. After a layoff what should a person look for when searching for clues as to whether a thoroughbred is ready to win at first asking after a layoff or how many races should be viewed as playable before a horse should win or should be discarded as payable because the thoroughbred has gone off form?"

Thoroughbreds having trouble lines in their past performance, whether they are bumped, off slow, in tight, etc. and lose, should the next time they run be a playable race because of the trouble or if they are in form, coming off a winning race and their next race they are troubled is their form still good or should they be discarded as playable?

I've noticed that when horses have trouble and they scamper to the lead and fade, or they are bumped, jostled or pinched to the back of the pack then for reason I can not phantom they seem to go off form after the trouble.

[chadk66]

How would a trainer describe the form cycle of thoroughbreds. After a layoff what should a person look for when searching for clues as to whether a thoroughbred is ready to win at first asking after a layoff or how many races should be viewed as playable before a horse should win or should be discarded as payable because the thoroughbred has gone off form?"

Thoroughbreds having trouble lines in their past performance, whether they are bumped, off slow, in tight, etc. and lose, should the next time they run be a playable race because of the trouble or if they are in form, coming off a winning race and their next race they are troubled is their form still good or should they be discarded as playable?

I've noticed that when horses have trouble and they scamper to the lead and fade, or they are bumped, jostled or pinched to the back of the pack then for reason I can not phantom they seem to go off form after the trouble.the only thing you can go by in regards to coming back off a layoff is how successful the trainer is with this type of thing and if the horse has had long enough works to have any shot at being fit enough. In regards to the trouble lines, I would go look at the videos of those races and see exactly what happened. trouble lines can be very misleading.

[jpren37]

Chadk66, Northerndancer, Lamboguy, Cannon Shell and Mineshaft (sorry if I left out any other trainers; please feel free to reply also).

In regard to works following a layoff (let's say 9 months). How would you prepare your horse for his return in terms of #, spacing and distance of works and what would you have to see in those works to feel comfortable to enter a race. Please separate sprints from routes if there is a difference.

thanks

[lamboguy]

i am not a hands on trainer, our horses would be on the farm in Ocala. what we generally do is start by jogging, then galloping. after 3 to 4 weeks of that we might work the horse 1/4 from the pole. if everything goes fine, we will go to the gate and stand the horse a few times until they show that they are not nervous, then we will pop them out of the gate and work them an easy 3/8. if that goes good we will send the horse to a trainer at the race track and let them work on getting the horse fit on the bigger oval. when our horses need time off, they all come home because there are plenty of round pens and paddocks for them to clear their heads out. if they have an injury and need to be in the stall all day there are plenty of people to watch over those horses and take care of their needs in bigger stalls than you will find in a race track.

[chadk66]

well that's a hard question to answer. basically it depends on the horse. there is no "one size fits all" approach to coming back from a layoff. If a horse was laid off from an injury that will change your approach completely. But in a nutshell you have to put some good long gallops in them to make sure they have a foundation to handle the speed work. Distance doesn't hurt horses, speed does. So if you put speed in them too soon they'll right back at the ranch. If my horses can't handle daily two to three mile gallops without much effort they aren't going to handle any speed work. My sprinters I would start working them short and build up to 5/8's to 3/4's with strong gallop outs. (older horses I'm referring to here). Route horses I would build up to mile works. The route horses would also get more two minute mile gallops also. But bottom line is the horse will tell you what and when. That's the art involved in training, listening to what the horse tells you what he wants and needs. When I have more time I'll give you a long, drawn out story of a horse I claimed one time. It has some very interesting things that went on and how every little thing can mean something.

[Mineshaft]

Thanks jpren37 but im not a trainer just an owner.


Just depends on the horse. After all the long gallops and jogs, when your ready to start working the horse this is what I would do.


Im putting 8-9 works in the horse every 10-14 days. Start off with (2) 3 furlong works then (3) 4 furlong works then (3) 5 furlong works then one 6 furlong work. I would also work in company in some of those works and also one work would be out the gate either 4 or 5 furlong work.

[northerndancer]

Chadk66, Northerndancer, Lamboguy, Cannon Shell and Mineshaft (sorry if I left out any other trainers; please feel free to reply also).

In regard to works following a layoff (let's say 9 months). How would you prepare your horse for his return in terms of #, spacing and distance of works and what would you have to see in those works to feel comfortable to enter a race. Please separate sprints from routes if there is a difference.

thanks

jpren37 I am not a trainer just an owner.... from my experiences with having horses off the layoff my trainers (and I agree) that you need to take your time with the horse. Allow the horse to develop a sound strong foundation under him before asking him to do too much. You have to have patience with a horse coming off a layoff.

Once the horse is ready to work as Mineshaft stated gap your works accordingly.

The horse will tell you when they are ready to move forward. Remember you gave them 9 months off for a reason so respect the decision you made to give the time off and be reasonable with your expectations for the horse as it moves forward in training.

[jpren37]

thanks guys for your thoughtful responses. I guess what I was trying to get at is something like the following hypothetical:

A horse is coming off a 9 month layoff. As a handicapper, your given a workout line in the pp's to evaluate (let's assume for the purposes of this post that the information shown is accurate). If today's race is 6 furlong sprint, should you be looking for works that contain at least a 5 furlong work? If the works are not evenly spaced is that a negative? If the last work is more than 10 days from today's race is that a negative? If the times recorded are accurate, when is a work too fast/slow? Do you work a stakes horse differently then you would a claimer? Are route returns treated differently?

Are there Heuristics or rules of thumb that one should look for or is each horse so unique that no rules of thumb apply?

I know i'm asking a lot so responses to only a few of these questions would be much appreciated :)

[lamboguy]

thanks guys for your thoughtful responses. I guess what I was trying to get at is something like the following hypothetical:

A horse is coming off a 9 month layoff. As a handicapper, your given a workout line in the pp's to evaluate (let's assume for the purposes of this post that the information shown is accurate). If today's race is 6 furlong sprint, should you be looking for works that contain at least a 5 furlong work? If the works are not evenly spaced is that a negative? If the last work is more than 10 days from today's race is that a negative? If the times recorded are accurate, when is a work too fast/slow? Do you work a stakes horse differently then you would a claimer? Are route returns treated differently?

Are there Heuristics or rules of thumb that one should look for or is each horse so unique that no rules of thumb apply?

I know i'm asking a lot so responses to only a few of these questions would be much appreciated :)i am dealing with a horse that had an injury and was out 8 months. by design she ran her first race back with out a gate work and she got nervous behind the gate and wound up coming out bad. the next race she also ran a sprint race and came out of the gate good and got beat less than 3 lengths. her next race might be sunday in Saratoga going long if she gets in. if she wins the race, i can tell you that the plan worked. almost all the time i make sure the horse pops out of the gate before they make their return start. Parx racing has a rule that you have to do that.

i would say if you don't see a gate work from a layoff horse, you don't want to put your money on them.

[chadk66]

thanks guys for your thoughtful responses. I guess what I was trying to get at is something like the following hypothetical:

A horse is coming off a 9 month layoff. As a handicapper, your given a workout line in the pp's to evaluate (let's assume for the purposes of this post that the information shown is accurate). If today's race is 6 furlong sprint, should you be looking for works that contain at least a 5 furlong work? If the works are not evenly spaced is that a negative? If the last work is more than 10 days from today's race is that a negative? If the times recorded are accurate, when is a work too fast/slow? Do you work a stakes horse differently then you would a claimer? Are route returns treated differently?

Are there Heuristics or rules of thumb that one should look for or is each horse so unique that no rules of thumb apply?

I know i'm asking a lot so responses to only a few of these questions would be much appreciated :)everything is really centered around the horse returning from layoffs. each trainer also has their own philosophy. But yes regular works would be a good thing to see, however weather plays a roll in it. If your bringing a horse back from an injury your not going to work on a questionable track. so you'd have to research why a horse has a glitch in his workout schedule. I wouldn't use a horse that didn't show at least a five furlong work before running 3/4 but you just can't trust that he hadn't even through there isn't any listed works at that distance. The last year I trained I had an older mare that was laid off for a few months over the winter. She was a MN bred and there was a stakes race for her about two months into the meet going 1-1/16. I started her back training in Feb. on a high speed treadmill. Went six weeks on that then it was nice enough outside to start galloping. Then in april moved to cby. Got several nice works in her and ran her 6F opening weekend. She's a better route horse but ran third I think flying at the wire. Three weeks later ran her a mile against open company and she was flying at the end and got up for second. This was all a setup for the stakes. She then won the stakes race quite easily drawing off at the end. She was an easy trainer that got alot out of gallops and works in the morning.

[Clocker]

A question out of curiosity as much as anything. I was just looking at a maiden claimer race that had two 4 y.o. maidens, one with 12 races lifetime. You see these types often in 3 and up maiden races. Why does an owner spend the money to keep a horse like that in training for 2 or even 3 years, especially once it is dropped from Mdn. Sp. Wts. to claiming and still shows nothing? Some kind of emotional attachment?

And how often does a 4 y.o. that breaks its maiden after a dozen or more races ever go on to win a race at the next level?

[green80]

I have a question that has not been answered ..ever

.How would one be able to tell if a jockey volunteered ( or chose ) to ride a specific horse in a race when he rode other horses in that same race . who makes that decision the trainer or jockey.? in other words was the mount his first call or what ,how could you tell .Thanks

hope I made this understandable.


Either the jockey or his agent made the call. More than likely the agent. The jockey is not always on what he thinks is the best horse, other factors come into play. If a small trainer with one horse and a big stable with fifty horses both want the same jock, who do you think he rides for?

[chadk66]

A question out of curiosity as much as anything. I was just looking at a maiden claimer race that had two 4 y.o. maidens, one with 12 races lifetime. You see these types often in 3 and up maiden races. Why does an owner spend the money to keep a horse like that in training for 2 or even 3 years, especially once it is dropped from Mdn. Sp. Wts. to claiming and still shows nothing? Some kind of emotional attachment?

And how often does a 4 y.o. that breaks its maiden after a dozen or more races ever go on to win a race at the next level?either the owner isn't very smart, has a ton of money to waste or is too emotionally attached to the horse. Or he's setting the horse up for a race and gonna sneak into the stall in the middle of the night and give it a cocktail:D

[Mineshaft]

A question out of curiosity as much as anything. I was just looking at a maiden claimer race that had two 4 y.o. maidens, one with 12 races lifetime. You see these types often in 3 and up maiden races. Why does an owner spend the money to keep a horse like that in training for 2 or even 3 years, especially once it is dropped from Mdn. Sp. Wts. to claiming and still shows nothing? Some kind of emotional attachment?

And how often does a 4 y.o. that breaks its maiden after a dozen or more races ever go on to win a race at the next level?





1-He probably has more money than God


2-Its a pet to him,probably bred the horses and really doesn't care at all how much the costs are.

[Quesmark]

i would say if you don't see a gate work from a layoff horse, you don't want to put your money on them.
There's opinion leaning the opposite way too,especially if a horse's last work is out of the gate;in a series of works leading up to a start for a returnee,or firster a lot of xxx B/H g usually isn't a good sign.

[Quesmark]

Is there an unofficial class dividing line where generally a horse will be trained up to,and tightened for a top effort,intentionally toward an objective,vs. being raced into shape as many "cheap" claimers are,and then being entered regularly until a break is forced/required by the rigors of racing?

[lamboguy]

There's opinion leaning the opposite way too,especially if a horse's last work is out of the gate;in a series of works leading up to a start for a returnee,or firster a lot of xxx B/H g usually isn't a good sign.i agree with that, but the question is coming off a long layoff. Parx Racing makes you have a gate work if you are off 45 days or more. i don't know what the rules are in other places, but i think its a good policy because once the horse pops out they become more alert. its always dangerous when a horse is standing in the gate and you want to try to make it as easy as possible on them.

form a handicappers standpoint when you see horses break from the gate 3 straight times, you know that he is a problem child and the trainer is trying hard to take the fear or anxiety away from the horse.

[PICSIX]

Did you know there are currently 71 trainers in North America with a win percentage >= 25% (minimum 50 starts in 2013)?

One such trainer has maintained this percentage with 604 starts....amazing!!

[chadk66]

Did you know there are currently 71 trainers in North America with a win percentage >= 25% (minimum 50 starts in 2013)?

One such trainer has maintained this percentage with 604 starts....amazing!!can you post the list?

[PICSIX]

can you post the list?

This link should be sorted by win percentage starting at 100%.
Just tried link after posting...you will have to select the win% tab at top to sort. I went through & counted the 71.
http://www.equibase.com/stats/View.cfm?tf=year&tb=trainer&eid=9572#trainer

[Quesmark]

Did you know there are currently 71 trainers in North America with a win percentage >= 25% (minimum 50 starts in 2013)?

One such trainer has maintained this percentage with 604 starts....amazing!!
There's a question waiting to be asked of a trainer there somewhere,like how's that possible?

[maclr11]

I will defend a couple trainers on this list

Like Mike Maker has so many wins on horses that are claimed for 40k and win for 8k.
Your percentage will be very high doing that.
So there are a few guys who fit into that category.

Guys like Charlton Baker dominate Finger Lakes a weak circuit but really take a beating at Aqueduct in the winter.

Dino Condilenos in Hastings spends a lot of money on horses and has lots of high quality horses. Higher value races are normally shorter fields and your percentage will be higher automatically just by running in shorter fields.

The two guys in the top ten I will defend are Rob Atras and Mike Chambers.

Atras is probably the hardest working guy on the ASD backside, second maybe to Jim Meyaard whos percentage speaks for itself as well. He runs a small barn and has really good help. Here at ASD people just run everytime theres a race in the book, but Atras actually points for specific spots and trains. Does all the required vet work, trains hard, takes good care of them and by doing that he has the best looking horses on the grounds. Not some magical powder that lets him fly past everybody. So in some cases I think people who just work harder, have horses that were fit when they came to ASD and aren't run into the ground can run over poor meets like this.

Chambers is a high percentage guy who trains the absolute shit out of his horses. They breeze every Tuesday because Wednesday is golf day at Turf Paradise. He gets horses from California that terribly outclass the horses in Phoenix and enters them really aggressively. The horses that he buys for 1500$ that were running for 10k in SoCal go in for 3500 in Phx and win and then they get sold. His barn is another one that's well kept, the horses are normally quite fit and he does the vet work. Something that a lot of people wont do. In the summer at Cby and Emerald his numbers decline because its harder to get horses out of California.

So theres the reasoning behind some of the high percentage guys
Everyone of them has a story and some advantage they have and who knows what who is using but the game is not nearly as corrupt as some of you make it out to be.

[northerndancer]

Great list these caught my eye.... not good not bad just found it interesting:

Craig MacPherson 25% Win 71% Top 3 from 99 starts.

Kevin Patterson 42% wins with 71% Top 3 from 92 starts.

Kirk Ziadie 41% Win 76% Top 3 from 119 starts.

James Hanson 39% Win 75% Top 3 from 107 starts.

[chadk66]

I will defend a couple trainers on this list

Like Mike Maker has so many wins on horses that are claimed for 40k and win for 8k.
Your percentage will be very high doing that.
So there are a few guys who fit into that category.

Guys like Charlton Baker dominate Finger Lakes a weak circuit but really take a beating at Aqueduct in the winter.

Dino Condilenos in Hastings spends a lot of money on horses and has lots of high quality horses. Higher value races are normally shorter fields and your percentage will be higher automatically just by running in shorter fields.

The two guys in the top ten I will defend are Rob Atras and Mike Chambers.

Atras is probably the hardest working guy on the ASD backside, second maybe to Jim Meyaard whos percentage speaks for itself as well. He runs a small barn and has really good help. Here at ASD people just run everytime theres a race in the book, but Atras actually points for specific spots and trains. Does all the required vet work, trains hard, takes good care of them and by doing that he has the best looking horses on the grounds. Not some magical powder that lets him fly past everybody. So in some cases I think people who just work harder, have horses that were fit when they came to ASD and aren't run into the ground can run over poor meets like this.

Chambers is a high percentage guy who trains the absolute shit out of his horses. They breeze every Tuesday because Wednesday is golf day at Turf Paradise. He gets horses from California that terribly outclass the horses in Phoenix and enters them really aggressively. The horses that he buys for 1500$ that were running for 10k in SoCal go in for 3500 in Phx and win and then they get sold. His barn is another one that's well kept, the horses are normally quite fit and he does the vet work. Something that a lot of people wont do. In the summer at Cby and Emerald his numbers decline because its harder to get horses out of California.

So theres the reasoning behind some of the high percentage guys
Everyone of them has a story and some advantage they have and who knows what who is using but the game is not nearly as corrupt as some of you make it out to be.yea it's really hard to point to a high win percentage trainer and make anything out of it without knowing all the ins and outs of that trainers situation. Now if you could isolate that into trainers that have high win percentages with little to no influx of new horses on a constant basis you could draw some conclusions. But there is so many horses being shipped here and there for various reasons it gets pretty skewed. personally I think 25-30% is a very obtainable win percentage for a trainer who basically has the same horses over a decent time period. when you start getting over that percentage I think there are more variables at play such as horses being sent from better tracks to win easy races, the trainer not being able to get his horses into races that fit the horse and having to run the horse where it doesn't belong just to run it, etc. etc.

[lamboguy]

the biggest question all the time is when a horse moves from one barn to the other and improves from the former. sometimes there are adjustments that can be made that turns the horse right around. horses might be hitting themselves and the new trainer can figure out the reason why he does that, i have seen that problem corrected a few times by working on the horses neck.

there are horses that are completely out of line and won't change leads. a good trainer can work on those horses and correct that problem which usually comes from the rear end even though the front shoulder muscles are usually sore.

as far as substances go, i don't believe there is anything that can be described as rocket juice, but there are things that help horses breath better and mask pain. the hottest thing right now is TB500. supposedly that is a natural substance that does the same to a horse as ritilin would do to a child. it supposedly makes the horses focus better. i have no idea how this or any other substance can be good for a horse in the long run, but i have been proven wrong so far.

[Cannon shell]

There's a question waiting to be asked of a trainer there somewhere,like how's that possible?
Winning 1 out of 4? Depends on the situation. If I took my stable to Thistledowns I'd imagine I'd win 60%.

[Stillriledup]

Winning 1 out of 4? Depends on the situation. If I took my stable to Thistledowns I'd imagine I'd win 60%.

But his point is that you shouldnt be able to win 1 out of 4 unless you're cheating. Most trainers are not plying their trade at Thistledown. If you went to TDN you could win as many races as you wanted to. If you raced at "real" tracks, the best you should be able to do is win 15 to 18 pct...ya know, assuming you're just using oats and hay.

[lamboguy]

But his point is that you shouldnt be able to win 1 out of 4 unless you're cheating. Most trainers are not plying their trade at Thistledown. If you went to TDN you could win as many races as you wanted to. If you raced at "real" tracks, the best you should be able to do is win 15 to 18 pct...ya know, assuming you're just using oats and hay.there are trainers that have no business getting a license every year. in the orient, if a trainer doesn't hit a certain percentage, they don't get licensed. if this game was structured just a little differently, there would be new tracks opening every year instead of closing now.

the number one part of racing is the horse. if a trainer doesn't take care of his horses, the horses don't perform. i saw it for myself with my own to eyes from a trainer that i HAD last week in Saratoga. i had a group of partners in the horse that bought half the horse from me, they wanted to go to a certain trainer. we met in the paddock, they had all their friends and family there and they took a group picture with the jockey. i looked at the horse and wanted to scratch her, i just didn't have the heart to do it under the circumstances. the horse wound up running dead last and i gave the partners my share of the horse and wished them all the best.

[chadk66]

there are trainers that have no business getting a license every year. in the orient, if a trainer doesn't hit a certain percentage, they don't get licensed. if this game was structured just a little differently, there would be new tracks opening every year instead of closing now.

the number one part of racing is the horse. if a trainer doesn't take care of his horses, the horses don't perform. i saw it for myself with my own to eyes from a trainer that i HAD last week in Saratoga. i had a group of partners in the horse that bought half the horse from me, they wanted to go to a certain trainer. we met in the paddock, they had all their friends and family there and they took a group picture with the jockey. i looked at the horse and wanted to scratch her, i just didn't have the heart to do it under the circumstances. the horse wound up running dead last and i gave the partners my share of the horse and wished them all the best.:ThmbUp:

[Cannon shell]

But his point is that you shouldnt be able to win 1 out of 4 unless you're cheating. Most trainers are not plying their trade at Thistledown. If you went to TDN you could win as many races as you wanted to. If you raced at "real" tracks, the best you should be able to do is win 15 to 18 pct...ya know, assuming you're just using oats and hay.
Where is it written that winning 1 out of 4 is not possible w/o cheating? Aren't a lot of those guys listed racing at tracks that would be listed far below "real" tracks? I'm only at 23% so I guess I'm off the hook for now.

[Stillriledup]

Where is it written that winning 1 out of 4 is not possible w/o cheating? Aren't a lot of those guys listed racing at tracks that would be listed far below "real" tracks? I'm only at 23% so I guess I'm off the hook for now.

I'm not in any position to 'pick and choose' which 25% (and up) trainers are clean and which ones are cheating. If you can swear on your life that every 25% and up trainer is clean, i'll believe your first sentence, i won't even question it. If you can't guarantee me that, i'll invoke the "Ryan Braun clause" that says you really never know who's cheating and who is not.

[Cannon shell]

I'm not in any position to 'pick and choose' which 25% (and up) trainers are clean and which ones are cheating. If you can swear on your life that every 25% and up trainer is clean, i'll believe your first sentence, i won't even question it. If you can't guarantee me that, i'll invoke the "Ryan Braun clause" that says you really never know who's cheating and who is not.
Nowhere do I imply that "every" 25% trainer is clean, just that 25% is simply a random number that has no meaning without further qualification. Unlike MLB or other pro sports, trainers are allowed to run against inferior competition which can greatly inflate win percentage. I'm not naive enough to believe that no one is cheating but not paranoid to believe everyone is either. Far too much time is spent speculating on who is and who isn't especially considering that relatively benign positives trigger wild accusations while others who are blatant use a lack of positive tests as "evidence".

[cj]

Nowhere do I imply that "every" 25% trainer is clean, just that 25% is simply a random number that has no meaning without further qualification. Unlike MLB or other pro sports, trainers are allowed to run against inferior competition which can greatly inflate win percentage. I'm not naive enough to believe that no one is cheating but not paranoid to believe everyone is either. Far too much time is spent speculating on who is and who isn't especially considering that relatively benign positives trigger wild accusations while others who are blatant use a lack of positive tests as "evidence".

It isn't that hard to figure out who is "probably" using an edge, and it has little to do with win percentage. Just follow the guys that have big move ups off of good trainers and even better, horses can't run a lick for anyone else after leaving a trainer.

[Cannon shell]

It isn't that hard to figure out who is "probably" using an edge, and it has little to do with win percentage. Just follow the guys that have big move ups off of good trainers and even better, horses can't run a lick for anyone else after leaving a trainer.
Exactly.

[Stillriledup]

Nowhere do I imply that "every" 25% trainer is clean, just that 25% is simply a random number that has no meaning without further qualification. Unlike MLB or other pro sports, trainers are allowed to run against inferior competition which can greatly inflate win percentage. I'm not naive enough to believe that no one is cheating but not paranoid to believe everyone is either. Far too much time is spent speculating on who is and who isn't especially considering that relatively benign positives trigger wild accusations while others who are blatant use a lack of positive tests as "evidence".

As a trainer, its in your best interest if other trainers are not accused of cheating, it doesnt look good for your line of work, you don't want random people saying "oh, you're a horse trainer, don't all horse trainers cheat and abuse horses?"

But, as a bettor, i have to have a completely different mindset, i don't care what the perception is about trainers, i have to worry about how their training affects my betting, nothing more, nothing less.

[Stillriledup]

It isn't that hard to figure out who is "probably" using an edge, and it has little to do with win percentage. Just follow the guys that have big move ups off of good trainers and even better, horses can't run a lick for anyone else after leaving a trainer.

Any trainer can 'light one up' no matter what their win percentage is so in that regard, win percentage and cheating have nothing to do with each other on a case by case basis. But, i think you would probably be hard pressed to find the 8 and 10 percent trainers who are consistently 'moving up' horses....you can have your outlier 'explosion' from a low percentage trainer, but for the most part, the "move up" trainers are all batting high percentages.

[Cannon shell]

As a trainer, its in your best interest if other trainers are not accused of cheating, it doesnt look good for your line of work, you don't want random people saying "oh, you're a horse trainer, don't all horse trainers cheat and abuse horses?"

But, as a bettor, i have to have a completely different mindset, i don't care what the perception is about trainers, i have to worry about how their training affects my betting, nothing more, nothing less.
I dont really care to be honest with you. Some people are gonna believe what they are gonna believe regardless of reality. Some guys do cheat but isnt that the same in every walk of life? This idea that trainers all look out for each other is laughably wrong.

[chadk66]

It isn't that hard to figure out who is "probably" using an edge, and it has little to do with win percentage. Just follow the guys that have big move ups off of good trainers and even better, horses can't run a lick for anyone else after leaving a trainer.not a truer statement has bee uttered.

[Stillriledup]

I dont really care to be honest with you. Some people are gonna believe what they are gonna believe regardless of reality. Some guys do cheat but isnt that the same in every walk of life? This idea that trainers all look out for each other is laughably wrong.

The context of what i was trying to say got lost in translation. I'm not suggesting that trainers are looking out for each other, my point was that your defense of the training profession isnt based on the idea that you are sticking up for other trainers, its the idea that you want the PROFESSION to be viewed in a positive light.

[lamboguy]

there is plenty of cheating going on in the equity markets as well as horse racing. when you break the laws in the equity markets the government puts you away for up to 20 years and when you get out you can't participate in those markets. in horse racing there are suspensions and sometimes large ones, but what tends to happen is that those that got suspended tend to come back under their wife, girl friend or friends name and the game continues and no one makes it to jail. they are cheating the unsuspecting public out of their money like in equity trading, but the penalties don't mean a thing

[chadk66]

there is plenty of cheating going on in the equity markets as well as horse racing. when you break the laws in the equity markets the government puts you away for up to 20 years and when you get out you can't participate in those markets. in horse racing there are suspensions and sometimes large ones, but what tends to happen is that those that got suspended tend to come back under their wife, girl friend or friends name and the game continues and no one makes it to jail. they are cheating the unsuspecting public out of their money like in equity trading, but the penalties don't mean a thingI agree. And no real penalties for habitual offenders of medication rules. There needs to be a limit on how many positives before your out.

[Cannon shell]

The context of what i was trying to say got lost in translation. I'm not suggesting that trainers are looking out for each other, my point was that your defense of the training profession isnt based on the idea that you are sticking up for other trainers, its the idea that you want the PROFESSION to be viewed in a positive light.
Again it doesn't matter to me what the profession is viewed as because there are wildly different views depending on who you talk to. A large percentage of posters here probably have a far different view of the training profession than most people who have at least a little interest in horse racing. While it aggravates me when some trainers blatantly break rules, run unsound horses, cheat owners, etc most trainers don't. That doesn't mean most trainers actually know what they are doing but I would hope that myself along with a few others here can shed some light as to the realities of training.

[Stillriledup]

Again it doesn't matter to me what the profession is viewed as because there are wildly different views depending on who you talk to. A large percentage of posters here probably have a far different view of the training profession than most people who have at least a little interest in horse racing. While it aggravates me when some trainers blatantly break rules, run unsound horses, cheat owners, etc most trainers don't. That doesn't mean most trainers actually know what they are doing but I would hope that myself along with a few others here can shed some light as to the realities of training.

I can tell in your voice (thru posts) that it hurts you that people think there's rampant cheating going on and that if a trainer improves a horse, he must have cheated. I know personally if i was a trainer and i found a 'hole card' on a horse thru hard work and honest means, i'd really be PO'd if someone suggested that i must be cheating.

You feel that you can match up your horsemanship skills with anyone and when people take edges that they're not supposed to, that takes money out of your pocket as well as make the profession look bad.

Sure, people are going to think what they want to think no matter how clean or how dirty the game is, but those people are going to think the worst no matter what....trainers can sway an awful lot of open minded people to see it for what it is if they just stop cheating.

These miracle worker trainers who appear overnight cheapen all the hard work you've done in your life, it makes training look easy and i don't know too many people who want their occupation to fall under the banner "so easy an ape can do it".

[Cannon shell]

I can tell in your voice (thru posts) that it hurts you that people think there's rampant cheating going on and that if a trainer improves a horse, he must have cheated. I know personally if i was a trainer and i found a 'hole card' on a horse thru hard work and honest means, i'd really be PO'd if someone suggested that i must be cheating.

You feel that you can match up your horsemanship skills with anyone and when people take edges that they're not supposed to, that takes money out of your pocket as well as make the profession look bad.

Sure, people are going to think what they want to think no matter how clean or how dirty the game is, but those people are going to think the worst no matter what....trainers can sway an awful lot of open minded people to see it for what it is if they just stop cheating.

These miracle worker trainers who appear overnight cheapen all the hard work you've done in your life, it makes training look easy and i don't know too many people who want their occupation to fall under the banner "so easy an ape can do it".

While surely the miracle worker trainers are a blight on the sport the real enemy are probably those owners who are so quick to toss their money behind them (conveniently ignoring the obvious), the regulators who often turn a blind eye and others who make weak attempts to defend them with claims of horsemanship and other nonsense that hardly explains the insane improvement time and time again. It isn't so much a indictment on the training community as it is on the entire game.

[JohnGalt1]

Instead of say a $2k fine and a six month suspension--which the horse goes in the girlfriend's name to train--how about for example a $10k fine for a first offense with no phony suspension, then a $25k fine for a second, $50k for a third and a $100k for a 4th, etc.

No trainer could book that action.

Or if that's too structured, base the fines on severity. A level infractions (higher fines), B's (lesser) etc.

[Stillriledup]

I'd like to ask this question, you don't need to name names of course, for obvious reasons, but have you ever heard about a trainer who intentionally puts horses in bad spots so that he can eventually cash a bet while racing the horse into shape and getting bad PP lines in the process?

How about some stories about trainers trying to hide horses they don't want claimed and what lengths they'll go to either hide the horse or make the horse look like a horse that people might not want to claim.

[Clocker]

How about some stories about trainers trying to hide horses they don't want claimed and what lengths they'll go to either hide the horse or make the horse look like a horse that people might not want to claim.

I have read about trainers putting unnecessary front wraps on a horse to make it look like it has developed problems.

[lamboguy]

I have read about trainers putting unnecessary front wraps on a horse to make it look like it has developed problems.how many people that want to claim the horse do you think that move fools?

i once saw a horse that B Wayne Hughes put out for maiden $50K. he won the race and there was a 12 way shake. the horse had front wraps that were on the ankles loose, and they didn't go to the top of the ankle.

[chadk66]

how many people that want to claim the horse do you think that move fools?

i once saw a horse that B Wayne Hughes put out for maiden $50K. he won the race and there was a 12 way shake. the horse had front wraps that were on the ankles loose, and they didn't go to the top of the ankle.I've pulled one over on trainers on several occasions when I didn't want to loose a horse. I took a horse to thistledown and dropped him in for 8500 about a month after winning for 12,500. I wrapped the front legs and made one look like it had an old bow. horse got beat a head but needed a trip over the track. you should have seen the trainers standing outside the test barn looking. they about shit when I cut the wraps off and there was no bow. the horse then reeled off three in a row 11,500, 15k and allowance. some pissed off hombres.

[Cannon shell]

I have read about trainers putting unnecessary front wraps on a horse to make it look like it has developed problems.
I once had my guys put front bandages with cotton stuffed in them to make it look like he had tendons. Walked the horse to the paddock, saddled him, made sure that the time to drop claims had passed then cut them off. A trainer that was looking at him got all pissed off right outside the paddock saying that you can't take bandages off in the paddock. We laughed.

[thaskalos]

I've pulled one over on trainers on several occasions when I didn't want to loose a horse. I took a horse to thistledown and dropped him in for 8500 about a month after winning for 12,500. I wrapped the front legs and made one look like it had an old bow. horse got beat a head but needed a trip over the track. you should have seen the trainers standing outside the test barn looking. they about shit when I cut the wraps off and there was no bow. the horse then reeled off three in a row 11,500, 15k and allowance. some pissed off hombres.

Some pissed off horseplayers too...no doubt.

[chadk66]

Some pissed off horseplayers too...no doubt.
I doubt it. Nov. at thistledown, there wasn't a player in the paddock. However, I did tip an owner stabled next door and he made about 5K on the horse over the next six weeks:cool:. We played alot of golf together after that lol.

[Stillriledup]

I doubt it. Nov. at thistledown, there wasn't a player in the paddock. However, I did tip an owner stabled next door and he made about 5K on the horse over the next six weeks:cool:. We played alot of golf together after that lol.

People betting on simulcasting can see on tv if the horse has new bandages they dont have to be there live.

[chadk66]

probably not in 1986 lol

[chadk66]

Been thinking about this bandage thing. As a trainer I have to say as far as handicapping goes I would pay little to no attention to bandages. there are numerous reasons for their use. few reasons if any would benefit a handicapper.

[Clocker]

as far as handicapping goes I would pay little to no attention to bandages.

Not even on a horse that never raced with them before?

[chadk66]

absolutely not. for what reason? you generally don't use bandages because a horse is sore. so I can't think of a reason why bandages would matter to a bettor.

[stuball]

I have wondered and was reminded of it the other day..when a trainer picks
up the front leg of a horse and bends it at the knee in the paddock..does this signify possible stiffness..I can't see it being a positive thing....or is this for show
also..I have not tracked how the horses run after I see this.

Stuball

[Chris Longshot]

The one question I would ask is why some low % trainers are so married to jocks that consistently cost them placings. Their horse is live in a race yet they continously use jocks that impede them from winning. I didn't realize that trainers have their horses best race to waste. Not saying they need to or could even get top jocks but at the very least use a decent journeyman.
See this all the time and considering their low win % I don't understand it.

Classic example last night was in Evangeline's 7th...
:4: horse Dominicano..Get a look at a replay if you can....

Terrible ride by the jock in the stretch, only had to dip the horse to the outside and the horse would have been full of run..Yet when he had the chance he wimped out and played it safe on the rail while standing up high in the stirrups and pushing his weight back practically keeping the horse in neutral when the horse wanted to run.

Now Tyler Woodley is an awful jock and family to the trainer ironically but when does winning and money come before family.....:lol:

[stuball]

I don't see much the trainer did wrong here...Woodley rode for him on this horse 5 times previously with 2 places and 1 show...changed to Melancon
last out odds dropped to 2-1 resulting in the same running style 4th place
finish..this horse is 1-5-4 for 23 starts so it's like a lot of horses at the
cheaper tracks needs everything to go right for him to win..and then he might get 2nd...trainer only 9% at evd and has been cold... jock is not great 5%
overall buy 7% for this trainer...trainer may be happy to get a check with
him....just my opinion..I don't usually post a lot but somehow felt compelled
to do it this time...

Stuball

[Chris Longshot]

I don't see much the trainer did wrong here...Woodley rode for him on this horse 5 times previously with 2 places and 1 show...changed to Melancon
last out odds dropped to 2-1 resulting in the same running style 4th place
finish..this horse is 1-5-4 for 23 starts so it's like a lot of horses at the
cheaper tracks needs everything to go right for him to win..and then he might get 2nd...trainer only 9% at evd and has been cold... jock is not great 5%
overall buy 7% for this trainer...trainer may be happy to get a check with him....just my opinion..I don't usually post a lot but somehow felt compelled
to do it this time...

Stuball

Solid points Stu can't argue with what you said....and we are talking about Evangeline horses here but still hated the ride...perception is everything I guess.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I have wondered and was reminded of it the other day..when a trainer picks
up the front leg of a horse and bends it at the knee in the paddock..does this signify possible stiffness..I can't see it being a positive thing....or is this for show
also..I have not tracked how the horses run after I see this.

Stuball

You see a lot of the same trainers routinely going through this exercise and to be honest, most of the time I would categorize it as simple routine or being "for show" as you alluded.

Most don't even really stretch the leg the way that a chiropractor or massage therapist would for any kind of tangible benefit. For those that aren't doing it purely "for show", I suspect the rationale is often to help lessen the cinch of the overgirth after being saddled.

I surely don't think that I'd put any great stock into whether or not a horse is getting one of these minor stretches after being saddled in terms of its chances in the race. Maybe if it was a case that you followed the horse and trainer routinely and noticed some pattern, but just as a simple observation - I wouldn't give it a second thought.

[PhantomOnTour]

The one question I would ask is why some low % trainers are so married to jocks that consistently cost them placings. Their horse is live in a race yet they continously use jocks that impede them from winning. I didn't realize that trainers have their horses best race to waste. Not saying they need to or could even get top jocks but at the very least use a decent journeyman.
See this all the time and considering their low win % I don't understand it.

Classic example last night was in Evangeline's 7th...
:4: horse Dominicano..Get a look at a replay if you can....

Terrible ride by the jock in the stretch, only had to dip the horse to the outside and the horse would have been full of run..Yet when he had the chance he wimped out and played it safe on the rail while standing up high in the stirrups and pushing his weight back practically keeping the horse in neutral when the horse wanted to run.

Now Tyler Woodley is an awful jock and family to the trainer ironically but when does winning and money come before family.....:lol:
Years ago I used to sit next to Corale "Bunkie" Richards at FG, and he seemed to be married to a lousy jock named Jimenez. I think Bunkie's sister was the agent for Jimenez, or something like that. Needless to say, Bunkie didn't win much.
Nowadays he is a solid 15-20% trainer in Louisiana and does a very good job. He no longer uses this Jimenez fellow, and I have no idea where he's riding these days.
Bunkie is a good guy and a solid trainer, good for him :ThmbUp:

[Stillriledup]

Years ago I used to sit next to Corale "Bunkie" Richards at FG, and he seemed to be married to a lousy jock named Jimenez. I think Bunkie's sister was the agent for Jimenez, or something like that. Needless to say, Bunkie didn't win much.
Nowadays he is a solid 15-20% trainer in Louisiana and does a very good job. He no longer uses this Jimenez fellow, and I have no idea where he's riding these days.
Bunkie is a good guy and a solid trainer, good for him :ThmbUp:

Low pct trainers use low pct jocks because they usually have bad horses, its hard to secure a top rider if the jock knows that the trainer normally runs slugs and wins 5%.

[thaskalos]

Low pct trainers use low pct jocks because they usually have bad horses, its hard to secure a top rider if the jock knows that the trainer normally runs slugs and wins 5%.

I'm not sure about that.

I sometimes see a low-pct trainer sending out what appears on paper to be the best horse in the race...and yet, the jockey is so bad that I end up avoiding the horse -- and I am almost always right.

It almost seems as if certain low-pct trainers are doing a favor for certain jockeys...even though the evidence suggests that they are not in a position to do any favors...

[magwell]

Most of the time its because the jock gets on the horse in the morning for the trainer who is is trying to save from paying a exerciser boy......;).

[Stillriledup]

I'm not sure about that.

I sometimes see a low-pct trainer sending out what appears on paper to be the best horse in the race...and yet, the jockey is so bad that I end up avoiding the horse -- and I am almost always right.

It almost seems as if certain low-pct trainers are doing a favor for certain jockeys...even though the evidence suggests that they are not in a position to do any favors...

even when they do have the best horse, its just reputation that they've earned over the years, its hard to ride for a barn like that, even when it shakes out that they do have the most likely winner.

[Cannon shell]

I have wondered and was reminded of it the other day..when a trainer picks
up the front leg of a horse and bends it at the knee in the paddock..does this signify possible stiffness..I can't see it being a positive thing....or is this for show
also..I have not tracked how the horses run after I see this.

Stuball
It is just to stretch the horse who just had a tight girth placed on them. Some horses will get uncomfortable after having the girth tightened. Stretching the legs afterwards will sometimes loosened the girth a touch and make it more comfortable. Honestly it's pretty innocuous.

[Cannon shell]

The one question I would ask is why some low % trainers are so married to jocks that consistently cost them placings. Their horse is live in a race yet they continously use jocks that impede them from winning. I didn't realize that trainers have their horses best race to waste. Not saying they need to or could even get top jocks but at the very least use a decent journeyman.
See this all the time and considering their low win % I don't understand it.

Classic example last night was in Evangeline's 7th...
:4: horse Dominicano..Get a look at a replay if you can....

Terrible ride by the jock in the stretch, only had to dip the horse to the outside and the horse would have been full of run..Yet when he had the chance he wimped out and played it safe on the rail while standing up high in the stirrups and pushing his weight back practically keeping the horse in neutral when the horse wanted to run.

Now Tyler Woodley is an awful jock and family to the trainer ironically but when does winning and money come before family.....:lol:

One of the big mistakes people make in horse racing is forgetting that there are actual people attached to those numbers.

While in your eyes the trainer should use another jockey there are a number of reasons why they might not choose to do so. As someone said in a prior post perhaps the jockey is galloping horses for the trainer for free in return for mounts. Perhaps the horse in question isn't easy to ride or is sore and a bigger name rider might scratch them in the post parade or just never let them run much in the actual race. Don't forget that a lower percentage trainer isn't going to be that desirable for a better rider to ride for and the jockey may actually get pissed at the agent for booking the mount, especially if they don't win. Or of course maybe the trainer is just too stupid to realize that his jockey is killing him.

[chadk66]

Solid points Stu can't argue with what you said....and we are talking about Evangeline horses here but still hated the ride...perception is everything I guess.that's done to stretch the skin out under the cinch. some horses are cinchy and get blood blisters under the skin. some will rare first step they take. has nothing to do with stretching the horses legs or such.

[chadk66]

Most of the time its because the jock gets on the horse in the morning for the trainer who is is trying to save from paying a exerciser boy......;).that happens rather rarely.

[chadk66]

One of the big mistakes people make in horse racing is forgetting that there are actual people attached to those numbers.

While in your eyes the trainer should use another jockey there are a number of reasons why they might not choose to do so. As someone said in a prior post perhaps the jockey is galloping horses for the trainer for free in return for mounts. Perhaps the horse in question isn't easy to ride or is sore and a bigger name rider might scratch them in the post parade or just never let them run much in the actual race. Don't forget that a lower percentage trainer isn't going to be that desirable for a better rider to ride for and the jockey may actually get pissed at the agent for booking the mount, especially if they don't win. Or of course maybe the trainer is just too stupid to realize that his jockey is killing him.and you'd be surprised at the number of owners that insist on a certain rider no matter how piss poor he is. here is a classic example. I trained for a gal and her husband. they had very nice horses. I had Donna Barton and Mark Sellers riding all my horses. Winning at 30% plus, top three at 54%. All of a sudden the owners wanted to put a certain jockey on their horses instead. Long story short, the husband was a foreigner (dark colored skin) and they insisted on using the same type of jockey. Took me a little while to figure that one out. That experiment didn't last long. And no I'm not racist:)

[Stillriledup]

Interesting video from Aug 16th at Saratoga (Race 10). The winner, Awakino Cat appeared to have his mouth open a little bit coming down to the wire. He was being "strangled" and restrained while an easy winner, and his tongue is flapping in the breeze, but it also appears like his mouth is almost "propped" open somehow...i dont remember ever seeing this before, i wonder if the trainer can use some kind of bit that opens up a horse's mouth and permits a horse to breathe better? It must have just been the jock grabbing a firm hold of him near the line and that's what opened his mouth a small amount, but i found this interesting to see and havent seen it before.

[pele polo]

... it also appears like his mouth is almost "propped" open somehow...i dont remember ever seeing this before, i wonder if the trainer can use some kind of bit that opens up a horse's mouth and permits a horse to breathe better?...

Horses can't breathe through their mouth

[Stillriledup]

I was watching the post parade of the 1995 Ky Derby last night and i noticed that the horses seemed really calm and dry..there really wasnt one "rank" horse or one horse who was washy.

Nowadays, horses seem to be more high strung and seem to get washy more than they did back in the day. Now, i know my example is an incredibly small sample, what do you all think, are horses 'washier' in today's game and if so, why?

[Cannon shell]

I was watching the post parade of the 1995 Ky Derby last night and i noticed that the horses seemed really calm and dry..there really wasnt one "rank" horse or one horse who was washy.

Nowadays, horses seem to be more high strung and seem to get washy more than they did back in the day. Now, i know my example is an incredibly small sample, what do you all think, are horses 'washier' in today's game and if so, why?
I was watchng NBA tv today and they showed the game where Bernard King scored 60 against the Nets back in 1984. Is it me or do todays players just not shoot well enough to score 60 anymore?

[Stillriledup]

I was watchng NBA tv today and they showed the game where Bernard King scored 60 against the Nets back in 1984. Is it me or do todays players just not shoot well enough to score 60 anymore?

I was watching the slam dunk stuff on there the other night. There are only a few shooters who could score 60...i think the players are so athletic, that once a guy gets hot and into the 40s, they just lock that guy down, in order to score 60, you almost have to "never miss" and if you're that hot, they're going to defend you hard.

[Cannon shell]

I was watching the slam dunk stuff on there the other night. There are only a few shooters who could score 60...i think the players are so athletic, that once a guy gets hot and into the 40s, they just lock that guy down, in order to score 60, you almost have to "never miss" and if you're that hot, they're going to defend you hard.
No I think it was just 1 game, you know kind of like 1 post parade.

[Stillriledup]

Question about kickback.

Which main tracks have the worst kickback....its hard to see on tv how much is getting kicked back, or, are all main tracks similar in kickback and there is really not much difference?

[Quesmark]

At what class level do trainers pay more attention to their charges?
Would a horse at an above 35k clm level eg. be conditioned differently than a 5-7,500K runner.
What are the different tactics used for various conditions,mostly the same for all,many variations,or trade secrets we shouldn't know about...

[chadk66]

At what class level do trainers pay more attention to their charges?
Would a horse at an above 35k clm level eg. be conditioned differently than a 5-7,500K runner.
What are the different tactics used for various conditions,mostly the same for all,many variations,or trade secrets we shouldn't know about...well some trainers train all their horses very much the same, feed them all the same amount, etc. Some trainers trainer every horse individually and condition each one as each one requires. I don't know that they would necessarily train a 35k horse much different than a cheaper horse. I think the distances they race warrants what training regimen they have and how sound they are, etc.

[onefast99]

Over the past 10 years I have had 5 different trainers. Not one of them was a good handicapper. That's not an insult to any of the trainers on this thread or to my past or present trainers but a fact that there is a huge difference in training a horse and handicapping one. I don't believe in luck when it comes to training, I believe there is a lot of luck involved in handicapping. A trainer has a certain way with his horses, he may work them fast each and every work, he may work them with another horse as some horses love working in company and are not the self motivated type when working alone. There are horses who go the opposite direction because they won't go the right way no matter how much you try and trick them. There are those horses who get more out of a work within a race than a work on their own. There are many angles to training and handicapping thats what makes this the toughest game in the world to own, train and handicap a horse!

[chadk66]

Over the past 10 years I have had 5 different trainers. Not one of them was a good handicapper. That's not an insult to any of the trainers on this thread or to my past or present trainers but a fact that there is a huge difference in training a horse and handicapping one. I don't believe in luck when it comes to training, I believe there is a lot of luck involved in handicapping. A trainer has a certain way with his horses, he may work them fast each and every work, he may work them with another horse as some horses love working in company and are not the self motivated type when working alone. There are horses who go the opposite direction because they won't go the right way no matter how much you try and trick them. There are those horses who get more out of a work within a race than a work on their own. There are many angles to training and handicapping thats what makes this the toughest game in the world to own, train and handicap a horse!:ThmbUp:This. I said right from the get go I was a horrible handicapper;)

[MJC922]

I would think that studying trainer patterns would be as effective as anything though many trainers don't have enough starts to have a valid statistical summary. If you are at the track just ask the trainer what he thinks. Yeah some can't help but lie but a lot of guys will give you an honest answer.

I ran a horse off of a long layoff at MTH in the Grade 3 this past weekend mostly because the allowance races I entered didn't fill and when I entered MTO the rain suddenly stopped. The we drew a lousy post which forced us to take back in order to not be 5 wide on the 1st turn and if you haven't been following MTH, taking back to last in dirt races is generally a horrible idea. However the horse hadn't run since November and I couldn't see how he could get a decent trip from the outside so taking back, trying to get to the semi-golden rail and getting a race under his belt while hoping for a crazy speed duel was about the best I could do. Technically I didn't tell the jockey not to win but because of the hand we were dealt the tactics employed didn't exactly give us a great chance to win. Had we drawn post 2 we would have surely tried to grab the rail and be up close if not on the lead because of the dynamics of the track and the tactical speed the horse has.

No disrepect intended but does anyone else think racing would probably be about 20% more consistent if the barn would just let their jock do the riding? I know in my own locale 2/3rds of these jokers look like they know more about growing cow corn than pace dynamics.

[onefast99]

No disrepect intended but does anyone else think racing would probably be about 20% more consistent if the barn would just let their jock do the riding? I know in my own locale 2/3rds of these jokers look like they know more about growing cow corn than pace dynamics.
As in every profession some are smarter than others!

[onefast99]

At what class level do trainers pay more attention to their charges?
Would a horse at an above 35k clm level eg. be conditioned differently than a 5-7,500K runner.
What are the different tactics used for various conditions,mostly the same for all,many variations,or trade secrets we shouldn't know about...
One name for you, Rapid Redux, claimed in October 2010 for $6250 won 22 straight! Now maybe the Halls and Breen felt he didn't fit their style but that is one hell of an accomplishment!

[iceknight]

Horses can't breathe through their mouth
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110110190033AAgucNp

haha
0jNgxLormCs

[iceknight]

and you'd be surprised at the number of owners that insist on a certain rider no matter how piss poor he is. here is a classic example. I trained for a gal and her husband. they had very nice horses. I had Donna Barton and Mark Sellers riding all my horses. The sports journalist? this must have been a while back when she was a jockey right and also is Mark Sellers father or brother of Shane Sellers?

sorry for asking trivia questions here..

[chadk66]

The sports journalist? this must have been a while back when she was a jockey right and also is Mark Sellers father or brother of Shane Sellers?

sorry for asking trivia questions here..no relation

[chadk66]

The sports journalist? this must have been a while back when she was a jockey right and also is Mark Sellers father or brother of Shane Sellers?

sorry for asking trivia questions here..yes when she was riding in the late 80's and early 90's. I never heard why she quit riding. injured? Mark Sellers was a great person aside from a very good jock. You couldn't find a nicer, more honest guy on a race track. If anybody knows where Mark is now days I'd love to know. Haven't talked to him in years.

[johnhannibalsmith]

... If anybody knows where Mark is now days I'd love to know. Haven't talked to him in years.

My memory is getting pretty shot, but I think either him or his brother got hurt in Florida quite a while back. I think last I heard the name, Mark was living down there, but it's been years so I may be mistaken. Might be a good question to ask of one of the Florida regulars like McSchell... seem to think he (one or the other) was hurt at Gulfstream.

[Stillriledup]

yes when she was riding in the late 80's and early 90's. I never heard why she quit riding. injured? Mark Sellers was a great person aside from a very good jock. You couldn't find a nicer, more honest guy on a race track. If anybody knows where Mark is now days I'd love to know. Haven't talked to him in years.

Here's a post from facebook that might be of help.
https://www.facebook.com/racingform/posts/537422832939069

[johnhannibalsmith]

Here's a post from facebook that might be of help.
https://www.facebook.com/racingform/posts/537422832939069

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Good find. Facebook has a purpose.

[chadk66]

Here's a post from facebook that might be of help.
https://www.facebook.com/racingform/posts/537422832939069man that sucks. what a great guy he was. I hadn't heard this. I knew he went to florida but he was going to try to get into being a steward or such. thanks for posting this.

[Stillriledup]

I know that almost all dirt tracks get watered between races, tell me, what would happen if the track didnt get watered? Would it be more dangerous for the horses? What is the purpose for the water on the dirt, is it just so there's not as much kickback?

[PICSIX]

Any trainers out there that weigh their horses at the same time every day?

How often can a sound horse race (in your opinion) assuming they are maintaining or gaining weight?

Do you use interval training, if not, why not?

Have you ever campaigned a distance horse in this fashion: sprint, route, sprint, route, sprint, route.....?

Thanks,

Mike

[chadk66]

I know that almost all dirt tracks get watered between races, tell me, what would happen if the track didnt get watered? Would it be more dangerous for the horses? What is the purpose for the water on the dirt, is it just so there's not as much kickback?water helps cushion the track. If the track is allowed to dry out they'd be running on the base which is hard.

[chadk66]

Any trainers out there that weigh their horses at the same time every day?

How often can a sound horse race (in your opinion) assuming they are maintaining or gaining weight?

Do you use interval training, if not, why not?

Have you ever campaigned a distance horse in this fashion: sprint, route, sprint, route, sprint, route.....?

Thanks,

Mike
A training buddy of mine bought a scale and one year weighed his horses daily. He was amazed by how much a horses weight changed back and forth. He claims to have never connected a pattern to the horses weight and racing success. I find that a little hard to believe but I guess it's possible. A sound horse can easily race every 12-14 days if everything basically remains unchanged with their health/condition. I did experiment with interval training and I can tell you it absolutely works. However, to my knowledge there nobody that does this, at least to any scale worth mentioning. It is very uneconomical for a trainer that I can tell you with certainty. We could spend a few hours discussing this by itself. Your question regarding distance horses is a question that has various answers. A true distance horse probably isn't going to be successful sprinting, and vice versa. But a good all around type horse can have success in both sprints and route races. I had quite a few over the years I could run anywhere from 6F to 1-1/16 without any issues or worries whatsoever.

[Clocker]

A training buddy of mine bought a scale and one year weighed his horses daily. He was amazed by how much a horses weight changed back and forth. He claims to have never connected a pattern to the horses weight and racing success. I find that a little hard to believe but I guess it's possible. A sound horse can easily race every 12-14 days if everything basically remains unchanged with their health/condition.

I have no first-hand knowledge about horses and training. What I have been reading is that the combination of Lasix and the effort of a race can result in significant weight loss, and that it can take several weeks for the average horse to regain the weight from a race run with Lasix and to get back into a regular training routine. Can a horse running on Lasix come back in 2 weeks?

[PICSIX]

I have no first-hand knowledge about horses and training. What I have been reading is that the combination of Lasix and the effort of a race can result in significant weight loss, and that it can take several weeks for the average horse to regain the weight from a race run with Lasix and to get back into a regular training routine. Can a horse running on Lasix come back in 2 weeks?

One thing to keep in mind, we don't (as bettors) know the dosage of Lasix a horse is given. The default at most jurisdictions is 5cc, the trainer can specify the dosage up to 10cc.

I guarantee most bettors assume all horses receive the same amount!

Wouldn't it be nice to have dosage amounts specified in the form?

FWIW, my horses (on Lasix) regularly receive only 2-3cc pre-race. :ThmbUp:

[chadk66]

I have no first-hand knowledge about horses and training. What I have been reading is that the combination of Lasix and the effort of a race can result in significant weight loss, and that it can take several weeks for the average horse to regain the weight from a race run with Lasix and to get back into a regular training routine. Can a horse running on Lasix come back in 2 weeks?you have to take what you read with a grain of salt. what they fail to explain is that every horse reacts differently to medications. no two horses are the same. just as humans react differently to medications. To answer your question, yes horses running on lasix can run back in two weeks. I had several horses that you couldn't gallop in the morning because they ran off with you. you could only jog them. so I ran them every 12-14 days because that's the only way to keep them in top condition. They all won alot of races. The thing you have to remember about weight drop from lasix use is that it's all water weight. If the horse is a good drinker they'll gain that back in a two or three days. Some horses are poor drinkers so it takes them longer. You just have to read the horse and those that are slow to respond to lasix use you have to back off on their training until they come around. Sometimes the so called experts over analyze things.

[chadk66]

One thing to keep in mind, we don't (as bettors) know the dosage of Lasix a horse is given. The default at most jurisdictions is 5cc, the trainer can specify the dosage up to 10cc.

I guarantee most bettors assume all horses receive the same amount!

Wouldn't it be nice to have dosage amounts specified in the form?

FWIW, my horses (on Lasix) regularly receive only 2-3cc pre-race. :ThmbUp:the actual dosage doesn't really matter. The end result is what matters. Some horses do well on 5cc, and the next horse needs 10cc to achieve the same level of success of the horse that got 10cc. Alot of that can be attributed to the size of the horse. It's gonna take more lasix on a 1200 lb horse than it does on a 1000 lb horse. They're no different than humans in that respect. That's why they make viagra in three different dosages. I don't think the erection is any bigger or harder with 50mg verses 25mg.

[lamboguy]

i don't know of any horses that can run of 10cc of lasix if the horse drinks a normal amount of water before the race, the horse will stop after 1/4 of a mile.

[magwell]

i don't know of any horses that can run of 10cc of lasix if the horse drinks a normal amount of water before the race, the horse will stop after 1/4 of a mile. Agree never seen more than 5 cc legally,,,,,

[chadk66]

Agree never seen more than 5 cc legally,,,,,
The allowed quantity varies by state. I have no idea what they are in each state right now. In MN I believe we were using 10cc in the 80's thru early 90's. But I'm not 100% sure on that. But I'm pretty confident it wasn't five.

[BIG49010]

How much does it cost for a scale for horses?

[chadk66]

$1200 or so
http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=c1420a4a-8dc5-4953-b801-5ce0bc5426bc&ccd=IFM003&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&mr:trackingCode=A1290265-3C81-E211-BA78-001B21631C34&mr:referralID=NA&mr:adType=pla&mr:ad=15165178243&mr:keyword=&mr:match=&mr:filter=35191254643&gclid=CK-Nm-uLpLoCFeYWMgodawkArg

[chadk66]

The equine transpirator is probably the best machine on the market for preventing bleeding and respiratory infections. I used this machine daily on all my horses for several years. I had fewer bleeders by far than the average trainer. You would not believe the garbage that comes out of their respiratory passages using this machine. And they absolutely love it. It provides 100% saturated air at 102 degrees if my memory serves me correctly. When I had them you couldn't put any medication in it just distilled water. I see the new ones you can put some stuff in it. I had two of these. They sold for $1800 way back in the day. They are very expensive now. But I wouldn't train without using it.
http://www.biohealth.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=38&Itemid=61

[Clocker]

But I wouldn't train without using it.
http://www.biohealth.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=38&Itemid=61

I assume that most trainers know about this. How many use it? Can this have the same result as Lasix? If the result is the same, why would a trainer prefer Lasix?

[BIG49010]

I assume that most trainers know about this. How many use it? Can this have the same result as Lasix? If the result is the same, why would a trainer prefer Lasix? Lasix is 20 or less a shot.

[chadk66]

I assume that most trainers know about this. How many use it? Can this have the same result as Lasix? If the result is the same, why would a trainer prefer Lasix?I have no idea how many are using it. I can tell you I was the only one on the grounds at cby from 86'-91' that used it. I have no idea why. On my trek around the backside there this summer I was in numerous barns to visit old friends and I didn't see one in use. So I'd venture to guess there are few using them. I believe they are over 5k now so that does prevent alot of use I'm sure. And if they have never used one it's hard to part with that kind of cash for something you don't know is a sure thing.