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cj
07-08-2013, 02:18 PM
...that one day there were only five thoroughbred tracks running in the US, and they actually coordinated their schedules so three of them didn't run races right on top of each other.

Crazy stuff, eh?

RaceBookJoe
07-08-2013, 02:19 PM
...that one day there were only five thoroughbred tracks running in the US, and they actually coordinated their schedules so three of them didn't run races right on top of each other.

Crazy stuff, eh?

Yep, that's exactly what that was haha

horses4courses
07-08-2013, 02:20 PM
...that one day there were only five thoroughbred tracks running in the US, and they actually coordinated their schedules so three of them didn't run races right on top of each other.

Crazy stuff, eh?

Are you completely out of your mind??? ;)

lamboguy
07-08-2013, 02:33 PM
there was a day when there were more racetracks open than now and all of them were packed. the total population in this country was slightly over 140 million people. today the population is double that and the racetracks are empty.

if there was only 5 tracks open some day, they would probably all be empty as well if this game doesn't find itself and make the changes to attract customer's instead of repelling them.

Grits
07-08-2013, 02:38 PM
150 summers in a row. ;) Look at the crowds..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z90w6C6zdSo

JBmadera
07-08-2013, 04:40 PM
Been thinking the same thing for years, but I would also add some kind of "minor league" where talent (both horses and owners) can develop. It comes down to sustainability and in its current form racing doesn't appear to be self sustaining.

Stillriledup
07-08-2013, 04:58 PM
A large portion of the "takeout" goes to sustaining the sport, the horseplayer is essentially footing the bill for the purses and the salaries of the trainers and jockeys. If you make a bet on an NFL game in Vegas, you are paying 0 percent to 'sustain' the sport...which is what makes a sports bet a much better gamble and that's why sports bettors really have no incentive to start betting the ponies, the price is NOT right.

Or, as Adam Sandler says in the movie Happy Gilmore, "The price is WRONG, b*tch"

wiffleball whizz
07-08-2013, 05:13 PM
...that one day there were only five thoroughbred tracks running in the US, and they actually coordinated their schedules so three of them didn't run races right on top of each other.

Crazy stuff, eh?

In 20 years that is the over under......5.5 you will have your wish

Belmont
Saratoga (aqueduct will cease racing)
Delmar or Santa Anita
Churchill
Pimlico

Meadowlands

You can go over or under......and that it

And to be honest god forbid there's another Barbaro incident in one of the big stages on national tv I can see horse racing being labeled as cruel like dog racing....heard that from several big name politicians...

Total years 5.5 that's the number

At least when I'm 52 I won't get cheated at northfield, Yonkers, Hawthorne, Calder etc etc etc.....a lot of things can change in 20 years....did anybody think in Boston in 1992 that dogs would be outlawed in Connecticut and massachussetts?

cj
07-08-2013, 05:34 PM
I was actually just talking about today. There were only five running, yet Delaware, Parx, and Suffolk all ran a race within a minute of each other. Not exactly the way to increase handle other than the degenerates that bounce from monitor to monitor playing numbers.

In 20 years that is the over under......5.5 you will have your wish

Belmont
Saratoga (aqueduct will cease racing)
Delmar or Santa Anita
Churchill
Pimlico

Meadowlands

You can go over or under......and that it

And to be honest god forbid there's another Barbaro incident in one of the big stages on national tv I can see horse racing being labeled as cruel like dog racing....heard that from several big name politicians...

Total years 5.5 that's the number

At least when I'm 52 I won't get cheated at northfield, Yonkers, Hawthorne, Calder etc etc etc.....a lot of things can change in 20 years....did anybody think in Boston in 1992 that dogs would be outlawed in Connecticut and massachussetts?

therussmeister
07-08-2013, 05:59 PM
there was a day when there were more racetracks open than now and all of them were packed. the total population in this country was slightly over 140 million people. today the population is double that and the racetracks are empty.

if there was only 5 tracks open some day, they would probably all be empty as well if this game doesn't find itself and make the changes to attract customer's instead of repelling them.
Today there are OTBs and ADWs.

Zydeco
07-08-2013, 06:21 PM
I was actually just talking about today. There were only five running, yet Delaware, Parx, and Suffolk all ran a race within a minute of each other. Not exactly the way to increase handle other than the degenerates that bounce from monitor to monitor playing numbers.

you are exactly right...on Mondays and Tuesdays i like to play some parlays.....but suffolk can't wait for the prices to come in from Delaware...so they lose my bet...parx can't wait for delaware to finish...etc etc

VeryOldMan
07-08-2013, 06:24 PM
Today there are OTBs and ADWs.

Perhaps more importantly - there are state lotteries and casinos in a crazy number of states (not just Vegas like the old days). Throw in online gaming of all sorts, and it's no wonder we don't have dozens of packed racetracks like 50 years ago.

wiffleball whizz
07-08-2013, 06:41 PM
I was actually just talking about today. There were only five running, yet Delaware, Parx, and Suffolk all ran a race within a minute of each other. Not exactly the way to increase handle other than the degenerates that bounce from monitor to monitor playing numbers.

Boggles the mind how stupid track execs can be to fire off races all at the same time.....3 tracks with with a race every 10 or 11 min can happen and everybody profits......there just do dumb its unreal

Even the big 10 is starting to get smart....they used to cram all the games in at noon with the game of the week at 3:30...now they are playing some games at 12 others at 330 and now even got with the times and play at night now

To have everything at 1 time is just moronic the big 10 was just an example I could come up with

Cannon shell
07-08-2013, 06:44 PM
A large portion of the "takeout" goes to sustaining the sport, the horseplayer is essentially footing the bill for the purses and the salaries of the trainers and jockeys. If you make a bet on an NFL game in Vegas, you are paying 0 percent to 'sustain' the sport...which is what makes a sports bet a much better gamble and that's why sports bettors really have no incentive to start betting the ponies, the price is NOT right.

Or, as Adam Sandler says in the movie Happy Gilmore, "The price is WRONG, b*tch"

At many tracks your betting dollar hardly pays any of the purses for those "lucrative salaries".
However where you are really mistaken is thinking that TV networks would be paying billions of dollars for TV rights (or advertisers ponying up insane ad prices) to NFL games if gambling on the sport wasn't allowed. So yeah maybe your cash plunked down on a game in Vegas doesn't directly wind up in the pocket of some running back but if more people stop betting on the NFL which would lead to a decrease in ratings, lower ad fees and lower TV money the sustainability of the sport will suffer.

The "price" to play this game is still too high but the state and tracks are the ones who should be giving back not the horsemen. On the whole we lose money while the other two parties that share in the takeout never do.

Stillriledup
07-08-2013, 06:49 PM
At many tracks your betting dollar hardly pays any of the purses for those "lucrative salaries".
However where you are really mistaken is thinking that TV networks would be paying billions of dollars for TV rights (or advertisers ponying up insane ad prices) to NFL games if gambling on the sport wasn't allowed. So yeah maybe your cash plunked down on a game in Vegas doesn't directly wind up in the pocket of some running back but if more people stop betting on the NFL which would lead to a decrease in ratings, lower ad fees and lower TV money the sustainability of the sport will suffer.

The "price" to play this game is still too high but the state and tracks are the ones who should be giving back not the horsemen. On the whole we lose money while the other two parties that share in the takeout never do.

Horse racing needs to become like the NFL, find a way to not have to rely on the bettors to pay the freight.

Cannon shell
07-08-2013, 06:50 PM
Boggles the mind how stupid track execs can be to fire off races all at the same time.....3 tracks with with a race every 10 or 11 min can happen and everybody profits......there just do dumb its unreal

Even the big 10 is starting to get smart....they used to cram all the games in at noon with the game of the week at 3:30...now they are playing some games at 12 others at 330 and now even got with the times and play at night now

To have everything at 1 time is just moronic the big 10 was just an example I could come up with
At two of those tracks the execs barely even care that racing exists. It is my contention that at least one of them does everything in its power to marginalize racing as much as possible in order to build a case to take to the politicians to end it with the reasoning being they can be more profitable without racing and the state will benefit from the taxes on added profits.

Stillriledup
07-08-2013, 06:51 PM
At two of those tracks the execs barely even care that racing exists. It is my contention that at least one of them does everything in its power to marginalize racing as much as possible in order to build a case to take to the politicians to end it with the reasoning being they can be more profitable without racing and the state will benefit from the taxes on added profits.

Exactly right. Slots tracks want to make racing "look bad" and look like a money loser so they can say "see, we dont need racing, we just need slots".

Cannon shell
07-08-2013, 06:52 PM
Horse racing needs to become like the NFL, find a way to not have to rely on the bettors to pay the freight.
Did you not read the post? The NFL is absolutely dependent on people gambling on its product. How is that not paying the freight?

And what plan do you have for racing to not rely on gamblers?

johnhannibalsmith
07-08-2013, 06:55 PM
Horse racing needs to become like the NFL, find a way to not have to rely on the bettors to pay the freight.

Yeah, maybe they could do something brilliant like count on handouts from state government while the slot money lasts. That has definitely helped the bettor's plight.

Stillriledup
07-08-2013, 06:56 PM
Did you not read the post? The NFL is absolutely dependent on people gambling on its product. How is that not paying the freight?

And what plan do you have for racing to not rely on gamblers?

No, i read the post, i know what you're saying....what i'm saying is that the NFL finds a way to make its product so attractive that people WANT to bet the games. Racing needs to find a way to make their product incredibly attractive and that starts with an extremely and competitive low takeout.

Since racing is 'struggling' and the gamblers are asked to pay all the frieght, what have the trainers and jockeys done to 'help' the cause? Are they taking a "cut" out of their paychecks to help out? Or, is it just the gamblers who are responsible to support the entire game?

Stillriledup
07-08-2013, 06:57 PM
Yeah, maybe they could do something brilliant like count on handouts from state government while the slot money lasts. That has definitely helped the bettor's plight.

Racing has had BILLIONS of dollars that have come in from slots over the last few years....do you know where ALL of that money went? Into the pockets of the owners, trainers and jocks and where has that strategy gotten us?

johnhannibalsmith
07-08-2013, 07:01 PM
Racing has had BILLIONS of dollars that have come in from slots over the last few years....do you know where ALL of that money went? Into the pockets of the owners, trainers and jocks and where has that strategy gotten us?

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Thanks. You get it then.

VeryOldMan
07-08-2013, 07:47 PM
However where you are really mistaken is thinking that TV networks would be paying billions of dollars for TV rights (or advertisers ponying up insane ad prices) to NFL games if gambling on the sport wasn't allowed. So yeah maybe your cash plunked down on a game in Vegas doesn't directly wind up in the pocket of some running back but if more people stop betting on the NFL which would lead to a decrease in ratings, lower ad fees and lower TV money the sustainability of the sport will suffer.



I've agreed with much of your analysis on the horse racing side, but think you are mistaken about the relative dynamics of the NFL viewership. There are tens/hundreds of millions of people who don't have a nickel at stake watching the games. Those eyeballs are valuable to advertisers, period. The NFL could get by just fine without gambling (although I agree that gambling must help the sport - otherwise why would the sport be so insistent on those injury reports we see, e.g.?). I know just how easy it is to strike up a conversation with a total stranger on a Monday during football season in my area by talking about our local team's most recent game (that we saw on TV). I wouldn't have had a nickel on the game and suspect most of the people I meet wouldn't have either.

Zydeco
07-08-2013, 07:50 PM
Yeah, maybe they could do something brilliant like count on handouts from state government while the slot money lasts. That has definitely helped the bettor's plight.

track gets slots....track says we are going to increase purses..this will increase field size and there will be more handle...doesn't seem to be working. How about this.....track gets slots....we are increasing purses 15% and reducing take out the same split the new money between owners and bettors. They never give the bettors anything, that I have seen. Just my opinion.

johnhannibalsmith
07-08-2013, 08:00 PM
track gets slots....track says we are going to increase purses..this will increase field size and there will be more handle...doesn't seem to be working. How about this.....track gets slots....we are increasing purses 15% and reducing take out the same split the new money between owners and bettors. They never give the bettors anything, that I have seen. Just my opinion.

My sarcasm may not have shone through as intended.

I have long been critical of how the slot subsidies have been used to the point now where I simply am critical of slot subsidies since nobody really seems interested in using them beyond the short term allure of crazy inflated purses and the resulting bubble.

The point, to SRU, was that we've already seen just how such an external solution has helped shift the burden off of bettors to their benefit and the industry's long-term benefit.

Maximillion
07-08-2013, 08:06 PM
I dont bet Woodbine because I struggle there, but they appear to be one of the very few to reduce takeout,(win wagers).

How has this been working out for them?

I sincerely hope this has thus far increased their handle.

wiffleball whizz
07-08-2013, 08:53 PM
I was actually just talking about today. There were only five running, yet Delaware, Parx, and Suffolk all ran a race within a minute of each other. Not exactly the way to increase handle other than the degenerates that bounce from monitor to monitor playing numbers.

In the "they can't be this stupid" portion of the thread I'm sitting in borgata Racebook yonkers 5 northfield 6 and hazel 4 and hit the half simultaneously with ocean downs just finishing as the others had just hit the half

Again they can't be that stupid....current MTP at harness tracks

Northfield 7
Yonkers 4(but really 6)
Hazel 6(but really)

taxicab
07-08-2013, 09:30 PM
...that one day there were only five thoroughbred tracks running in the US, and they actually coordinated their schedules so three of them didn't run races right on top of each other.

Crazy stuff, eh?



I think you're on the right page Mr.J.
I doubt it will be only 5, but three "types" of tracks will disappear.
The poorly run, constantly mismanaged tracks.
Calder,Ellis,Turfway.......
Tracks that will lose slot money.
They ignore the race punters, and drive them away.
When the politicians wise up and "reallocate" the funds, no horseplayers left.
Tracks/Racing associations that don't stand up to the horsemen.
They won't bust out the juicers (very bad for business), and let the horsemen dictate the business side of the game to them ( Horsemen have no business sense what so ever ).
California has allowed the horsemen to call for a takeout increase twice in the last 12 years or so.
Both times for terrible reasons that made no sense at all.
But the joke is on CHRB/Trainers & Owners, they lost plenty of players.....Idiots.

cj
07-08-2013, 09:33 PM
In the "they can't be this stupid" portion of the thread I'm sitting in borgata Racebook yonkers 5 northfield 6 and hazel 4 and hit the half simultaneously with ocean downs just finishing as the others had just hit the half

Again they can't be that stupid....current MTP at harness tracks

Northfield 7
Yonkers 4(but really 6)
Hazel 6(but really)

I've grown to like you, but this harness stuff in the t-bred sections have to stop! I can turn on a dime.

wiffleball whizz
07-08-2013, 09:49 PM
I've grown to like you, but this harness stuff in the t-bred sections have to stop! I can turn on a dime.

Well let's start taking in new customers and I can stop betting these filth ridden harness races!!!! :lol: :lol:

But just showing that the harness execs are as dumb as the Monday afternoon racing execs

No more harness talk from now on

Cannon shell
07-08-2013, 10:02 PM
No, i read the post, i know what you're saying....what i'm saying is that the NFL finds a way to make its product so attractive that people WANT to bet the games. Racing needs to find a way to make their product incredibly attractive and that starts with an extremely and competitive low takeout.

Since racing is 'struggling' and the gamblers are asked to pay all the frieght, what have the trainers and jockeys done to 'help' the cause? Are they taking a "cut" out of their paychecks to help out? Or, is it just the gamblers who are responsible to support the entire game?
That is like saying that Wal Mart employees should take a cut in order to keep prices low for their customers....

cj
07-08-2013, 10:04 PM
That is like saying that Wal Mart employees should take a cut in order to keep prices low for their customers....

Except in this case all the employees got raises.

Cannon shell
07-08-2013, 10:08 PM
I've agreed with much of your analysis on the horse racing side, but think you are mistaken about the relative dynamics of the NFL viewership. There are tens/hundreds of millions of people who don't have a nickel at stake watching the games. Those eyeballs are valuable to advertisers, period. The NFL could get by just fine without gambling (although I agree that gambling must help the sport - otherwise why would the sport be so insistent on those injury reports we see, e.g.?). I know just how easy it is to strike up a conversation with a total stranger on a Monday during football season in my area by talking about our local team's most recent game (that we saw on TV). I wouldn't have had a nickel on the game and suspect most of the people I meet wouldn't have either.
I believe you are mistaken. Whether it be a football pool, fantasy football, bookie sheets or actual bets on games the amount of people who are watching the games with a stake in the outcome is far greater in the NFL than any sport outside of racing. The 5 or 6 shit sack games every week in the NFL are followed to the end because the over/under or spread or fantasy points are at stake, not because anyone gives a shit if the Chiefs beat the Titans. The NFL caters to gambling regardless of whatever public stance it takes because it knows that w/o it rating plunge.

Cannon shell
07-08-2013, 10:12 PM
Except in this case all the employees got raises.
Not from handle they didn't

Cannon shell
07-08-2013, 10:26 PM
track gets slots....track says we are going to increase purses..this will increase field size and there will be more handle...doesn't seem to be working. How about this.....track gets slots....we are increasing purses 15% and reducing take out the same split the new money between owners and bettors. They never give the bettors anything, that I have seen. Just my opinion.
The problem is that with the extra money comes added incentive for the "haves" to increase their stake while the "have-nots" don't have the ability to do so.

In theory more money would lead to better racing. At Parx and Penn for example the racing is far, far tougher than it was pre-slots. However the racing cards aren't great betting cards not only because takeout is at ridiculous rates but because the top outfits are bringing better horses in at a far greater rate than the rest of the outfits can which leads to a lot of mismatched races. In the case of NY and California to an extent, a handful of trainers monopolize the bulk of the talent to such an extreme that they have changed the condition books and rules to cater to those chosen few which of course is good for them only.

I completely agree that much of the slots money has been squandered. I completely agree that takeout levels should have been or should still be addressed. However I don't think people realize how shaky the financial foundation is that :5: the horsemen are sitting on.

JustRalph
07-08-2013, 10:26 PM
Not from handle they didn't

Enlighten me.......where did it come from?

Cannon shell
07-08-2013, 10:31 PM
Enlighten me.......where did it come from?
Seriously?

One armed bandits. What track has increased their purses any significant amount from gains in handle in recent years?

wiffleball whizz
07-08-2013, 10:37 PM
Seriously?

One armed bandits. What track has increased their purses any significant amount from gains in handle in recent years?

Working for a casino I'm stunned the slot money has kept fueling purses all these years.....can't believe somebody hasn't stepped in and put there foot down all the way....money is going to drugged up trainers can't believe it's still going on....it will never happen in 10 more years

Now keep in mind I'm the brain surgeon tha left Mohegan sun in ct to work for a casino in AC that has a casino but at first didn't want to mention it had a casino...well this guy since has been flung to the curb...

Maybe off subject but I got the inside word that slots are coming to new jersey tracks.....the first one.,..freehold then mth then the meadowlands

But in 10 years it will be over raving will have to walk on its 2 feet

Cannon shell
07-08-2013, 10:46 PM
Working for a casino I'm stunned the slot money has kept fueling purses all these years.....can't believe somebody hasn't stepped in and put there foot down all the way....money is going to drugged up trainers can't believe it's still going on....it will never happen in 10 more years

Now keep in mind I'm the brain surgeon tha left Mohegan sun in ct to work for a casino in AC that has a casino but at first didn't want to mention it had a casino...well this guy since has been flung to the curb...

Maybe off subject but I got the inside word that slots are coming to new jersey tracks.....the first one.,..freehold then mth then the meadowlands

But in 10 years it will be over raving will have to walk on its 2 feet
The racino's weren't casinos and had to come to long term agreements w/horsemen in most places.

Very few of the trainers themselves are drugged up. Liquored up perhaps.

The casino's/tracks are probably the lessor of the two evils behind politicians when it comes to pilfering the slot money for purses.

Tom
07-08-2013, 10:50 PM
Seriously?

One armed bandits. What track has increased their purses any significant amount from gains in handle in recent years?

Exactly - without slots, racing just can't cut it.
Why should slots have to carry the burden of an unprofitable business?
I say turn over more of the slot money to the states so maybe the taxpayers get a break. Screw the tracks. All of them. They are leeches. If they can't make it, close the doors.

Stillriledup
07-08-2013, 10:51 PM
Well let's start taking in new customers and I can stop betting these filth ridden harness races!!!! :lol: :lol:

But just showing that the harness execs are as dumb as the Monday afternoon racing execs

No more harness talk from now on

Filthridden? Are you suggesting the races arent 100% honest?

wiffleball whizz
07-08-2013, 10:57 PM
Filthridden? Are you suggesting the races arent 100% honest?

Who me neeeeeeeever!!!!! All of racing is legit...both breeds when we bet we are getting a fair shake all around :lol: :lol: :lol:

I jus can't wait till the slot money gets shut off....

Stillriledup
07-08-2013, 11:02 PM
That is like saying that Wal Mart employees should take a cut in order to keep prices low for their customers....

Maybe when the day comes that Wal Mart employees are driving around in a new Mercedes every couple years and heading from Inglewood to their home in Manhattan Beach, Ca, than someone might suggest that those guys and gals are overpaid.

I'm not going to mention any names, but at some point in the last few years, i was at a track and happened to be online for concessions behind a trainer who hardly ever wins and this trainer took out a wad of money that would choke a dinosaur, ripped a 100 dollar bill off the stack and paid for his/her soup and i was like (to myself) "seriously?"

speed
07-08-2013, 11:15 PM
Maybe when the day comes that Wal Mart employees are driving around in a new Mercedes every couple years and heading from Inglewood to their home in Manhattan Beach, Ca, than someone might suggest that those guys and gals are overpaid.

I'm not going to mention any names, but at some point in the last few years, i was at a track and happened to be online for concessions behind a trainer who hardly ever wins and this trainer took out a wad of money that would choke a dinosaur, ripped a 100 dollar bill off the stack and paid for his/her soup and i was like (to myself) "seriously?"
For awhile i thought it was mostly an act on you're behalf. I have come to the conclusion i was quite wrong.
Best of luck

JustRalph
07-08-2013, 11:16 PM
Enlighten me.......where did it come from?

Just wanted to make sure everybody was on the same page.......

ronsmac
07-08-2013, 11:51 PM
Exactly - without slots, racing just can't cut it.
Why should slots have to carry the burden of an unprofitable business?
I say turn over more of the slot money to the states so maybe the taxpayers get a break. Screw the tracks. All of them. They are leeches. If they can't make it, close the doors.
I seriously doubt the taxpayers will get any breaks, in Maryland they have every lottery imaginable, slot machines, table games, and they still raised the sales tax, the gas tax, tunnels and bridges that were $1 11 years ago are now four dollars. downtown Baltimore doubled the price of parking meters, and it looks like it will never stop.

cj
07-09-2013, 12:01 AM
Not from handle they didn't

Well, no, of course not. They got it from slots while the product for the bettor got worse.

GMB@BP
07-09-2013, 12:03 AM
Exactly - without slots, racing just can't cut it.
Why should slots have to carry the burden of an unprofitable business?
I say turn over more of the slot money to the states so maybe the taxpayers get a break. Screw the tracks. All of them. They are leeches. If they can't make it, close the doors.

This is one of the reasons I have been against slots from day one, it provided a crutch for the industry to keep the status which was clearly not working.

The horses are all going to lose the slots, sooner rather than later, politicians will quickly realize they dont need the horses in this equation.

cj
07-09-2013, 12:04 AM
I seriously doubt the taxpayers will get any breaks, in Maryland they have every lottery imaginable, slot machines, table games, and they still raised the sales tax, the gas tax, tunnels and bridges that were $1 11 years ago are now four dollars. downtown Baltimore doubled the price of parking meters, and it looks like it will never stop.

...and people wonder why I dodge a tornado or two instead of moving back to my home state!

ronsmac
07-09-2013, 12:18 AM
...and people wonder why I dodge a tornado or two instead of moving back to my home state!
Oh and I forgot , registering your car has tripled the last 15 yrs or so. You are a wise man, a lot smarter than me.

JustRalph
07-09-2013, 12:52 AM
Don't forget the new Maryland rainwater tax. So everytime it rains, you pay more


http://taxfoundation.org/blog/maryland-soon-roll-out-rain-tax

Track Phantom
07-09-2013, 12:54 AM
Regarding the post times going on top of each....on a Saturday, it is impossible for some tracks not going off at the same time. Not going to change that.

Having said that, the only real solution in this dysfunctional state of affairs that racing is in, is to create "regional partnerships" between tracks.

When Santa Anita and Golden Gate would adjust their post times to make it viable to play both tracks, it made it easy to focus on both tracks only. I don't know who partners with who and how many tracks are involved (maybe a three way partnership).

For example, Canterbury, Prairie Meadows and Arlington Park could be part of, for lack of a better term, the "Midwest Conference". They would adjust post times appropriately, write races that allow MN, IA and IL breds to compete, give priority for stall space to trainers who navigate that circuit and on and on.

In general, without a governing body, it will take partnerships between tracks to build their horse pipeline, draw attention to their overarching product, etc. Unfortunately, I doubt there are enough broad thinkers involved to understand how to make that work.

There are a lot of creative ideas that could enhance the appeal of the sport but it would require sacrifice and an approach that would help the global sport instead of their own current situation.

Not gonna happen in my lifetime.

wiffleball whizz
07-09-2013, 02:26 AM
...and people wonder why I dodge a tornado or two instead of moving back to my home state!

I just f***ing love hearing this as I'm about 34 days away from moving down there....

I've been miserable the last 2 weeks thinking if I
Should move to Maryland or stay in new jersey....

I don't see why they have to hold Our tips for 2 weeks I think that's bullshit...nor do I wanna live with 4 other guys...tons of traffic and an unknown sked....looking for an excuse to not go

But the whole tax thing is really turning me off and trips to lrl and pim aren't Exactly making me in a rush to get to md....

Stillriledup
07-09-2013, 02:53 AM
I just f***ing love hearing this as I'm about 34 days away from moving down there....

I've been miserable the last 2 weeks thinking if I
Should move to Maryland or stay in new jersey....

I don't see why they have to hold Our tips for 2 weeks I think that's bullshit...nor do I wanna live with 4 other guys...tons of traffic and an unknown sked....looking for an excuse to not go

But the whole tax thing is really turning me off and trips to lrl and pim aren't Exactly making me in a rush to get to md....

Whizzer, have you ever moved before, or would this be your first time moving away from the area you grew up in?

wiffleball whizz
07-09-2013, 02:57 AM
Whizzer, have you ever moved before, or would this be your first time moving away from the area you grew up in?

Lived own nj for 26 years moved to Connecticut from 2008-2012 now back in jersey....moving away from nj isn't what I'm scared of its Maryland and the thought of them taking 30 percent of my check really bothers me....

For the last 7 years or do I'm used to walking out with what I made but now that's it's every 2 weeks that's a different story...

I'm done worrying about it I got till August 12 to be there so it's not exactly tnrw

Stillriledup
07-09-2013, 03:03 AM
Lived own nj for 26 years moved to Connecticut from 2008-2012 now back in jersey....moving away from nj isn't what I'm scared of its Maryland and the thought of them taking 30 percent of my check really bothers me....

For the last 7 years or do I'm used to walking out with what I made but now that's it's every 2 weeks that's a different story...

I'm done worrying about it I got till August 12 to be there so it's not exactly tnrw

I sense some hesitation in your posts (in your voice), i think you're going to be fine, head down there with a new look on life and seize the moment. The worst thing that can happen is that you hate it and move back or move somewhere else, you're not chained there forever if you don't like it.

Also, this stuff helps a person grow, its really good to move around and try new things.

Zydeco
07-09-2013, 07:38 AM
My sarcasm may not have shone through as intended.

I have long been critical of how the slot subsidies have been used to the point now where I simply am critical of slot subsidies since nobody really seems interested in using them beyond the short term allure of crazy inflated purses and the resulting bubble.

The point, to SRU, was that we've already seen just how such an external solution has helped shift the burden off of bettors to their benefit and the industry's long-term benefit.

It showed through. I was just agreeing without sarcasm. :lol:

Cannon shell
07-09-2013, 02:11 PM
Exactly - without slots, racing just can't cut it.
Why should slots have to carry the burden of an unprofitable business?
I say turn over more of the slot money to the states so maybe the taxpayers get a break. Screw the tracks. All of them. They are leeches. If they can't make it, close the doors.
The "slots" are just machines. "They" don't carry any burden. The organizations that operate the machines are partners with the horsemen and have contractual agreements that call for a certain amount of revenue to be used for racing.

Only the naivest of the naive would believe that state gov't receiving more money from private companies is going to benefit the taxpayers. And why should the state and its taxpayers deserve more revenue from gambling proceeds than from any other business?

Cannon shell
07-09-2013, 02:16 PM
Maybe when the day comes that Wal Mart employees are driving around in a new Mercedes every couple years and heading from Inglewood to their home in Manhattan Beach, Ca, than someone might suggest that those guys and gals are overpaid.

I'm not going to mention any names, but at some point in the last few years, i was at a track and happened to be online for concessions behind a trainer who hardly ever wins and this trainer took out a wad of money that would choke a dinosaur, ripped a 100 dollar bill off the stack and paid for his/her soup and i was like (to myself) "seriously?"

Yeah leasing a Mercedes, not living in a ghetto and paying for soup with a $100 bill qualifies you for the highest of tax brackets.

Cannon shell
07-09-2013, 02:20 PM
Well, no, of course not. They got it from slots while the product for the bettor got worse.
The point was that bettors weren't "supporting" raises in "salaries".

The product got worse because the tracks lost control of their product and are more or less afraid or apathetic about trying to get it back.

burnsy
07-09-2013, 02:33 PM
...that one day there were only five thoroughbred tracks running in the US, and they actually coordinated their schedules so three of them didn't run races right on top of each other.

Crazy stuff, eh?

What? No more "place your bets"..."its 3 minutes til post time".....at 4 tracks? Horses will actually compete instead of running against 4 or 5 inferior horses. This is why they love the slot money...you can cherry pick a region and dominate. Or ship into some bull ring that should not even have these 1/2 million and million dollar races. It would of been nice to see Flat Out Vs. Game On Dude last weekend.........Its like letting the Yankees play Seattle 140 times a year....or New England play Buffalo 9 times BEFORE the playoffs. If you have a decent horse you can "fake" the whole season UNTIL the Breeders Cup. The only exception is Saratoga in the summer.........If the competition was stiff like Saratoga is in most races...it would help this game. Even here, the Travers is a complete joke more years than not now. The 3 YO's can even choose from about 4 major races at the back end of the summer...and face it folks there just is not that many GOOD horses to go around. So i can't blame them, if i were a owner or trainer, i'd do the same thing....its easy money without taking chances....look at the Dwyer saturday....they could not get one good horse to show up for that. The stakes schedule is bloated, there are too many tracks and not enough good horses....and basically, unless you are a horse player or a fan......most people could give a shit about horse racing...thems the cold hard facts.:bang:

Robert Goren
07-09-2013, 02:37 PM
The "slots" are just machines. "They" don't carry any burden. The organizations that operate the machines are partners with the horsemen and have contractual agreements that call for a certain amount of revenue to be used for racing.

Only the naivest of the naive would believe that state gov't receiving more money from private companies is going to benefit the taxpayers. And why should the state and its taxpayers deserve more revenue from gambling proceeds than from any other business? They have such agreement because state law requires in order to have slots, you must have racing. They are lobby coups for the horsemen. Anybody that thinks this going to continue indefinitely is only kidding themselves. The states are figuring out a lot of what was promised is not being delivered. The racinos have been merely back door to get slots into the state. Even the dumbest politician has figured that out. Cash poor states are starting to grab that money that is going to the purses. It won't be long before they all grab it all whether the tracks and horsemen like it or not. I suspect if the truth be told most racinos would just as soon be out of the racing business if they were allowed to keep their slot even if that "purse money" went to the state. Running a second or third rate race track has got be a pain-in-the-rear to most casino these days.

Tom
07-09-2013, 02:40 PM
Only the naivest of the naive would believe that state gov't receiving more money from private companies is going to benefit the taxpayers. And why should the state and its taxpayers deserve more revenue from gambling proceeds than from any other business?

Just like giving it to the tracks is improving racing. Why should they get more? Because we allow them to operate.

Cannon shell
07-09-2013, 02:50 PM
They have such agreement because state law requires in order to have slots, you must have racing. They are lobby coups for the horsemen. Anybody that thinks this going to continue indefinitely is only kidding themselves. The states are figuring out a lot of what was promised is not being delivered. The racinos have been merely back door to get slots into the state. Even the dumbest politician has figured that out. Cash poor states are starting to grab that money that is going to the purses. It won't be long before they all grab it all whether the tracks and horsemen like it or not. I suspect if the truth be told most racinos would just as soon be out of the racing business if they were allowed to keep their slot even if that "purse money" went to the state. Running a second or third rate race track has got be a pain-in-the-rear to most casino these days.
Let me ask you a question. Why did racetracks get favored status to receive slots licenses?

Yeah we all know the answer. So do those horseman "lobby coups" not work anymore? So they were powerful enough to strong arm the states into allowing slots at racetracks but not strong enough to keep them? Just hard to believe some of the nonsense people believe.

We are really close to a saturation point of available gambling in many parts of the country. Would the racino's ditch racing if they could? Of course, none of them have any great affinity for racing. But with the slots market just about covered the racing might be a necessary evil for racino's because for the most part they'd rather deal with pain in the ass racing as opposed to having more competition in terms of other non racing casino's.

Steve 'StatMan'
07-09-2013, 02:52 PM
Horse Racing of course did until the lotteries and especially the casinos ended up everywhere, track or not track. Most tracks without casinos also experienced big declines, like IL.

I don't see anything that will make the casinos and lotteries go away. Anything strong enough to drive them away will be strong enough to take racing away along with it.

How to get novices to come to the track again, I don't know. Used to be a lot of seniors at the race tracks, and when people retired, they went to the track. But far too many of those fans are either at the casinos, don't attened either anymore, or have passed away. Since casinos and lotteries, the retired people with time have been going to the casinos instead and coming to the track just isn't in many of their mindsets as they follow their friends, neighbords, family, etc where they go for fun and to pass the time away.

How to swing some of that more toward racing I wish I knew. Some might get into handicapping, but I'm sure there are plenty of novices that just want a good time and not a lot of thinking and work, and while one can bet the horses without any handicapping strategy, a lot of people know that people like us know a lot more than people like them now, and may not want to even try to bet against the more experienced bettors anymore. (Crap! I know!) I'm always good to the fans around me when I do get to the track and patiently answer their questions, I want them to feel welcome and want them to enjoy the game and come back again.

Cannon shell
07-09-2013, 02:56 PM
Just like giving it to the tracks is improving racing. Why should they get more? Because we allow them to operate.

Bitch all you want about racing and the error of its ways but when you start comparing it to gov't usage of funds you have found the one place in comparison where racing actually looks good.

Cannon shell
07-09-2013, 03:01 PM
Horse Racing of course did until the lotteries and especially the casinos ended up everywhere, track or not track. Most tracks without casinos also experienced big declines, like IL.

I don't see anything that will make the casinos and lotteries go away. Anything strong enough to drive them away will be strong enough to take racing away along with it.

How to get novices to come to the track again, I don't know. Used to be a lot of seniors at the race tracks, and when people retired, they went to the track. But far too many of those fans are either at the casinos, don't attened either anymore, or have passed away. Since casinos and lotteries, the retired people with time have been going to the casinos instead and coming to the track just isn't in many of their mindsets as they follow their friends, neighbords, family, etc where they go for fun and to pass the time away.

How to swing some of that more toward racing I wish I knew. Some might get into handicapping, but I'm sure there are plenty of novices that just want a good time and not a lot of thinking and work, and while one can bet the horses without any handicapping strategy, a lot of people know that people like us know a lot more than people like them now, and may not want to even try to bet against the more experienced bettors anymore. (Crap! I know!) I'm always good to the fans around me when I do get to the track and patiently answer their questions, I want them to feel welcome and want them to enjoy the game and come back again.


"Fixing" racing is actually a pretty simple formula that of course seems unlikely to occur.

Better product at better prices while featuring the available technology.

Now of course there are a million barriers to allowing this to happen ranging from most track executives failure to understand racing or gambling, greed, short term thinking by horsemen, apathy, unwieldy legislation, poor PR, etc.

Steve 'StatMan'
07-09-2013, 03:02 PM
Also, another bugaboo. Most of us learned about the races from a friend or a relative. Those of us with a lot of experience know how much work (albeit enjoyable) to get to the point we are at. The tracks sometimes try to encourage us to bring friends and relatives out now. But, since WE know how hard it has been to become a decent handicapper and bettor, and likely OUR FREIENDS AND RELATIVES know how much time and how hard we worked to become good at this, we might know that our friends aren't up to all that time, effort, and expenses that it takes - or the ones we might ask know, so they avoid any offers we may make, or maybe not ask us if they can come to the tracks with us (those of us who still attend live or OTB it.)

Sure seems like a serious trap for racing to get out of. Don't know how to get fan demand for racing higher again esp. the alternatives. Sure, if all the popular celebrities were tweeting about all the great times they were having at the race track, that would help. Perhaps we ourselves less time posting with each other, and more time being advocates of racing on social media to raise awareness. The things that are 'The In Thing To Do' to do are the ones that are going to do well. How do we help Racing be 'In' again?

thaskalos
07-09-2013, 03:09 PM
"Fixing" racing is actually a pretty simple formula that of course seems unlikely to occur.

Better product at better prices while featuring the available technology.

Now of course there are a million barriers to allowing this to happen ranging from most track executives failure to understand racing or gambling, greed, short term thinking by horsemen, apathy, unwieldy legislation, poor PR, etc.

Aren't you making a pretty strong case for taking the casino money away from the tracks and the horsemen?

Maybe they could then find the motivation to improve their business skills...

wiffleball whizz
07-09-2013, 03:48 PM
I sense some hesitation in your posts (in your voice), i think you're going to be fine, head down there with a new look on life and seize the moment. The worst thing that can happen is that you hate it and move back or move somewhere else, you're not chained there forever if you don't like it.

Also, this stuff helps a person grow, its really good to move around and try new things.

The whizzer is officially going to Maryland....got a call from the lottery division which is the gaming commission telling me they approved my license and Maryland paid already paid the $470 for it.....they didn't have to do that Hollywood casino in perryville wanted to take $50 out of my check for like 9 weeks....and reduced a offer from 52-43k when I went to sign papers....

So it's officially off to Maryland now.....really exited kind of feeling a little upset that I gotta tell my landlord im leaving....he was the best landlord you can ever have when I owed him money he was never around to get it!!!

Now I just gotta figure out my gameplan my start date is aug 12.....I'm either gonna live with 3 other people or get a hotel for a month and get a sense of where good areas are and that will buy me time to get a place....


Anybody in Maryland I'm buying drinks and food on opening day at laurel or my first off day whatever is first......

Cannon shell
07-09-2013, 03:51 PM
Aren't you making a pretty strong case for taking the casino money away from the tracks and the horsemen?

Maybe they could then find the motivation to improve their business skills...
Uh no. The idea that taking away the slot money will make racing better is not based in reality.

VeryOldMan
07-09-2013, 04:42 PM
The whizzer is officially going to Maryland....got a call from the lottery division which is the gaming commission telling me they approved my license and Maryland paid already paid the $470 for it.....they didn't have to do that Hollywood casino in perryville wanted to take $50 out of my check for like 9 weeks....and reduced a offer from 52-43k when I went to sign papers....

So it's officially off to Maryland now.....really exited kind of feeling a little upset that I gotta tell my landlord im leaving....he was the best landlord you can ever have when I owed him money he was never around to get it!!!

Now I just gotta figure out my gameplan my start date is aug 12.....I'm either gonna live with 3 other people or get a hotel for a month and get a sense of where good areas are and that will buy me time to get a place....

Anybody in Maryland I'm buying drinks and food on opening day at laurel or my first off day whatever is first......
Welcome to Maryland! September 19 is opening day at Laurel for the fall meet, FYI.

wiffleball whizz
07-09-2013, 05:49 PM
Welcome to Maryland! September 19 is opening day at Laurel for the fall meet, FYI.

If they do seniority by SS numbers I'll have first pick and elect Saturday and Sunday's and will have to find a decent spot at lrl to watch college games....

Though I was told by cj last night about talking about harness too much on here
I plan on frequenting that other racetrack that rhymes with throwsoff.......

proximity
07-09-2013, 06:09 PM
Anybody in Maryland I'm buying drinks and food on opening day at laurel or my first off day whatever is first......


you gotta make a trip to timonium too if you get a day off when it is running.

the timonium-charles town live racing double is a must do rite of passage in your journey as a gambler too!!

wiffleball whizz
07-09-2013, 06:17 PM
you gotta make a trip to timonium too if you get a day off when it is running.

the timonium-charles town live racing double is a must do rite of passage in your journey as a gambler too!!

If I have a day off.......Hahahahahahahahahaha first thing im doing is putting in for timonuim weekend off!!!!!! Gonna be a monster doubleheader..,...and will pull a SRU and bring back the "what racetrack doubleheaders have you done" thread back from the abyss of page 13!!!!!!

thaskalos
07-09-2013, 06:51 PM
Uh no. The idea that taking away the slot money will make racing better is not based in reality.

IMO...you don't deal with greedy track executives who don't understand racing or gambling, and greedy trainers who indulge in short-term thinking...by rewarding them with slot money.

so.cal.fan
07-09-2013, 07:11 PM
Very well said, Thaskalos. I totally agree with you.

magwell
07-09-2013, 07:27 PM
IMO...you don't deal with greedy track executives who don't understand racing or gambling, and greedy trainers who indulge in short-term thinking...by rewarding them with slot money. "Greedy trainers".....:lol:

wiffleball whizz
07-09-2013, 07:38 PM
Shocked these politicians are letting all this money go horsemen if there not getting a piece on the back end.....there has to be tons of envelopes getting passed behind closed doors

VeryOldMan
07-09-2013, 07:45 PM
you gotta make a trip to timonium too if you get a day off when it is running.
the timonium-charles town live racing double is a must do rite of passage in your journey as a gambler too!!

Good stuff - may have to get in on this one with you and W_W! I know CT reasonably well but haven't been to Timonium.

proximity
07-09-2013, 08:16 PM
beyond the end of the current condition book, racino trainers have very little vision for the future of the game. three digit pick 3 handles and single digit clubhouse attendance..... they just don't care.

PaceAdvantage
07-09-2013, 08:25 PM
Though I was told by cj last night about talking about harness too much on here
I plan on frequenting that other racetrack that rhymes with throwsoff.......Yeah, on here meaning the T-bred section...you wanna talk harness, there's a place for that:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=41

Cannon shell
07-09-2013, 10:20 PM
IMO...you don't deal with greedy track executives who don't understand racing or gambling, and greedy trainers who indulge in short-term thinking...by rewarding them with slot money.
So greedy casino companies or greedy politicians should be further rewarded?

Who makes these determinations anyway? What about the poor, addicted slots players? Shouldnt they get a say in where their money is whisked off to or absconded by?

Cannon shell
07-09-2013, 10:22 PM
Shocked these politicians are letting all this money go horsemen if there not getting a piece on the back end.....there has to be tons of envelopes getting passed behind closed doors
Dude the horsemans share of the proceeds of slots from racinos is by far the smallest cut.

Cannon shell
07-09-2013, 10:27 PM
beyond the end of the current condition book, racino trainers have very little vision for the future of the game. three digit pick 3 handles and single digit clubhouse attendance..... they just don't care.

And what is your vision for the future? What have you contributed? Perhaps you can donate your rebate money to a horseracing marketing fund?

proximity
07-09-2013, 10:29 PM
Dude the horsemans share of the proceeds of slots from racinos is by far the smallest cut.

no, the horseplayers share (lol) is by far the smallest cut.

still 0.3% "rebates" at penn national and dixie cups of coffee for almost $3.00. and the horsemen could care less.

ronsmac
07-09-2013, 10:35 PM
The whizzer is officially going to Maryland....got a call from the lottery division which is the gaming commission telling me they approved my license and Maryland paid already paid the $470 for it.....they didn't have to do that Hollywood casino in perryville wanted to take $50 out of my check for like 9 weeks....and reduced a offer from 52-43k when I went to sign papers....

So it's officially off to Maryland now.....really exited kind of feeling a little upset that I gotta tell my landlord im leaving....he was the best landlord you can ever have when I owed him money he was never around to get it!!!

Now I just gotta figure out my gameplan my start date is aug 12.....I'm either gonna live with 3 other people or get a hotel for a month and get a sense of where good areas are and that will buy me time to get a place....


Anybody in Maryland I'm buying drinks and food on opening day at laurel or my first off day whatever is first......Good luck and welcome, ironically all my friends are leaving the state and you're coming in. I don't know if it's worse than NJ, but we call MD the tax and fee state.

ronsmac
07-09-2013, 10:40 PM
Good luck and welcome, ironically all my friends are leaving the state and you're coming in. I don't know if it's worse than NJ, but we call MD the tax and fee state.
Also , remember most people that live somewhere are more critical of a place, city or state than a newcomer. The same way a diehard fan is more critical of the home team than an outside observer. Like the gentleman said in an earlier post, the worst thing is you don't like it and you move back.

proximity
07-09-2013, 10:42 PM
And what is your vision for the future? What have you contributed? Perhaps you can donate your rebate money to a horseracing marketing fund?


well, you've touched on the start of it. no improvement in player rewards since the inception of the casino? and maybe i need my rebates to afford $5.50 slider size hamburgers and nearly $3.00 cups of coffee.

also, through the years i've been one of the only people on this forum who have consistently been in favor of slots subsidies. i just don't feel they should be automatically given year after year with no signs of improvement in the overall product.

Cannon shell
07-09-2013, 10:49 PM
no, the horseplayers share (lol) is by far the smallest cut.

still 0.3% "rebates" at penn national and dixie cups of coffee for almost $3.00. and the horsemen could care less.

Ok why should horseplayers get a share of the slots money if the tracks and horsemen dont deserve any of it?

You don't like Penn National policy? Don't play their track or buy their coffee. This isn't grade school or 1965. You aren't assigned to Penn National nor are there not ample choices as to where your wagering dollars support.

I didnt like being stabled at or racing at Parx. So I left and stabled and raced somewhere else. Nothing is stopping you from turning the page.

And yeah full disclosure I get a big horsemans discount on the coffee. It only cost me $2.40 a cup. You know how us rich trainers roll...

Red Knave
07-09-2013, 10:51 PM
I just f***ing love hearing this as I'm about 34 days away from moving down there....

I've been miserable the last 2 weeks thinking if I
Should move to Maryland or stay in new jersey....


Lots of casinos in OK. And cj has already said he kind of likes you. Maybe you could learn something about t-breds from him ... if he lets you.

Think long and hard.

Cannon shell
07-09-2013, 10:57 PM
well, you've touched on the start of it. no improvement in player rewards since the inception of the casino? and maybe i need my rebates to afford $5.50 slider size hamburgers and nearly $3.00 cups of coffee.

also, through the years i've been one of the only people on this forum who have consistently been in favor of slots subsidies. i just don't feel they should be automatically given year after year with no signs of improvement in the overall product.

Ok how exactly do individual trainers have anything to do with players rewards programs or the price of hamburgers?

The slot money is a business arrangement that the tracks, state and horsemen have agreed to. It isn't a "reward" for good behavior. Now without a positive return we all know that when the contracts come due there may be a shift in these deals but who exactly would be the person who decides what an improvement is? At Parx which is more or less the worst case scenario when it comes to usage of slots money they herald the only track outside of the B Cup having 2 grade 1 million dollar races on the same card as proof that everything is hunky-dory. And for the most part there is little discourse refuting that nonsense.

proximity
07-09-2013, 10:58 PM
Ok why should horseplayers get a share of the slots money if the tracks and horsemen dont deserve any of it?


i never said the horsemen don't deserve any of the slots subsidy. again, on the contrary, i've consistently been one of the only posters here to be in favor of a subsidy and against track closings. ten years down the line though if you're still playing to an empty house with dismal pools, the allocation of slots dollars has to be called into question.

and if i'm playing at poker at penn national all morning and horses all afternoon and night..... whose coffee am i going to drink?

proximity
07-09-2013, 11:08 PM
Ok how exactly do individual trainers have anything to do with players rewards programs or the price of hamburgers?
.

at pen i know of one owner who was trying to meet with the g.m. to come up with ways (like coupons) to help live attendance. collectively you'd think a group like the hbpa would be concerned about the popularity of their product, but that doesn't seem to be the case. to me it is a joke that i get more using my caesar's total rewards visa card to buy a cup of coffee at penn national than i do if i bet $2 on a race at penn national.

Cannon shell
07-09-2013, 11:09 PM
i never said the horsemen don't deserve any of the slots subsidy. again, on the contrary, i've consistently been one of the only posters here to be in favor of a subsidy and against track closings. ten years down the line though if you're still playing to an empty house with dismal pools, the allocation of slots dollars has to be called into question.

and if i'm playing at poker at penn national all morning and horses all afternoon and night..... whose coffee am i going to drink?
I don't disagree but you stated that trainers aren't doing anything for the future which is a odd placement of blame. IMO the billion dollars that PA racing (TB and Harness) has gotten since the inception of slots has mostly been squandered. However the way the thing was set-up is the fault of many. Hell the statebred breeders awards are issued in an insane fashion. The guy who bred this years KY Oaks winner in PA gets exactly zero dollars in breeders rewards despite breeding a Filly classic winner instate. Yet the breeder of a 5k claimer at PID gets a full 20% bonus for his wins. Not exactly a great incentive to breed better horses is it?

I have no solution to your coffee dilemma.

wiffleball whizz
07-09-2013, 11:12 PM
i never said the horsemen don't deserve any of the slots subsidy. again, on the contrary, i've consistently been one of the only posters here to be in favor of a subsidy and against track closings. ten years down the line though if you're still playing to an empty house with dismal pools, the allocation of slots dollars has to be called into question.

and if i'm playing at poker at penn national all morning and horses all afternoon and night..... whose coffee am i going to drink?

I certainly hope that scum of the earth company penn national gaming/Hollywood casino treats you good....and I'm serious on that...

You bet ON-TRACK and pay $7 a pot u win in cards.....and you get a Dixie cup of coffee....casinos should roll out the red carpet for you....they can only profit by you walking through the door!!!

Caesars and PN are as bad a company there is in gambling

Somebody said earlier horsemen get the smallest cut from horses but it's more then they should get

These pemmsylsnania casinos rob the public charging $6 rake bad beat jackpot drop then tip....

You guys would know more about takeout then me but pa is sky high across the board....and besides parx pools are dismal

Cannon shell
07-09-2013, 11:15 PM
at pen i know of one owner who was trying to meet with the g.m. to come up with ways (like coupons) to help live attendance. collectively you'd think a group like the hbpa would be concerned about the popularity of their product, but that doesn't seem to be the case. to me it is a joke that i get more using my caesar's total rewards visa card to buy a cup of coffee at penn national than i do if i bet $2 on a race at penn national.
The HBPA has enough problems dealing with its own issues let alone ones that are tough to solve.

Most are under staffed and deal mostly with the benevolence issues. They are more or less horseman unions though they are far less effective in meeting their goals than real unions. As with most organizations that are run by committees of people volunteering their time mundane issues take up far more time than it should and most things are decided without much study or deliberation.

proximity
07-09-2013, 11:19 PM
Caesars and PN are as bad a company there is in gambling



i get way more from caesar's than i do pen gaming. not even close.

Cannon shell
07-09-2013, 11:20 PM
I certainly hope that scum of the earth company penn national gaming/Hollywood casino treats you good....and I'm serious on that...

You bet ON-TRACK and pay $7 a pot u win in cards.....and you get a Dixie cup of coffee....casinos should roll out the red carpet for you....they can only profit by you walking through the door!!!

Caesars and PN are as bad a company there is in gambling

Somebody said earlier horsemen get the smallest cut from horses but it's more then they should get

These pemmsylsnania casinos rob the public charging $6 rake bad beat jackpot drop then tip....

You guys would know more about takeout then me but pa is sky high across the board....and besides parx pools are dismal
So let me get this straight. PN and Caesars are as bad a companies as there are in gambling....and yet the horsemen who are already getting by far the smallest cut are getting "more than they should". So you support the state stealing more money or the evil gambling companies getting an increased cut?

Just trying to understand the logic

proximity
07-09-2013, 11:35 PM
i'm sure the vast majority of pennsylvania residents would be for the state taking more of the slots money and maybe putting it towards the repair of our roads and bridges which rank among the nation's worst. i'm not ready to abandon the subsidy, but want to see improvements to the betting side of the game too.... stuff like realistic takeouts and player rewards that aren't insulting tenths of a percent. things that could maybe give the game a chance to grow towards standing on its own two feet.

and back to the main topic of this thread. leading pen horsemen couldn't approach management and maybe push for a 7:00pm starting time where posts could be staggered with sister track charles town and people wouldn't have to rush out of work to make first post?

thaskalos
07-09-2013, 11:35 PM
Ok why should horseplayers get a share of the slots money if the tracks and horsemen dont deserve any of it?

You don't like Penn National policy? Don't play their track or buy their coffee. This isn't grade school or 1965. You aren't assigned to Penn National nor are there not ample choices as to where your wagering dollars support.

I didnt like being stabled at or racing at Parx. So I left and stabled and raced somewhere else. Nothing is stopping you from turning the page.

And yeah full disclosure I get a big horsemans discount on the coffee. It only cost me $2.40 a cup. You know how us rich trainers roll...

The horseplayer is pretty easy to satisfy; just give him full, competitive fields...and you won't hear any argument at all about the onerous takeouts.

If I am not mistaken...it was widely reported that the increased purses which resulted from the slot money would help alleviate the short field problem. But this has obviously not been the case.

So, in the current casino-assisted landscape...the horseplayer has been put on a steady diet of six, or even five-horse fields...and it shouldn't take a horse racing or a gambling GENIUS to realize that tiny fields and high takeouts make for a horrible combination.

When the slots were introduced at the race tracks, the horseplayers never believed that they would see any direct benefit from this cash infusion, as in the reduction of the takeouts.

But we never thought that we would see all these tiny fields either...

Cannon shell
07-09-2013, 11:43 PM
i'm sure the vast majority of pennsylvania residents would be for the state taking more of the slots money and maybe putting it towards the repair of our roads and bridges which rank among the nation's worst. i'm not ready to abandon the subsidy, but want to see improvements to the betting side of the game too.... stuff like realistic takeouts and player rewards that aren't insulting tenths of a percent. things that could maybe give the game a chance to grow towards standing on its own two feet.

and back to the main topic of this thread. leading pen horsemen couldn't approach management and maybe push for a 7:00pm starting time where posts could be staggered with sister track charles town and people wouldn't have to rush out of work to make first post?
I don't think they care what we think to be honest.

Tom
07-09-2013, 11:45 PM
Uh no. The idea that taking away the slot money will make racing better is not based in reality.

Almost as silly as thinking giving them money will make racing better.

Cannon shell
07-09-2013, 11:54 PM
The horseplayer is pretty easy to satisfy; just give him full, competitive fields...and you won't hear any argument at all about the onerous takeouts.

If I am not mistaken...it was widely reported that the increased purses which resulted from the slot money would help alleviate the short field problem. But this has obviously not been the case.

So, in the current casino-assisted landscape...the horseplayer has been put on a steady diet of six, or even five-horse fields...and it shouldn't take a horse racing or a gambling GENIUS to realize that tiny fields and high takeouts make for a horrible combination.

When the slots were introduced at the race tracks, the horseplayers never believed that they would see any direct benefit from this cash infusion, as in the reduction of the takeouts.

But we never thought that we would see all these tiny fields either...

Yeah I completely understand.

However the blame should be held at those who administer the racing program. They could give up a portion of their take to cut takeout. They could work to fix the inequities that exist on the backsides. They could try innovative things like working with other tracks so that there isn't overlapping races for the same group of horses.

With few exceptions they dont do any of these things.

Don't forget no track is losing money and the slot tracks are for the most part raking it in.

Cannon shell
07-09-2013, 11:56 PM
Almost as silly as thinking giving them money will make racing better.
Almost

wiffleball whizz
07-10-2013, 12:10 AM
So let me get this straight. PN and Caesars are as bad a companies as there are in gambling....and yet the horsemen who are already getting by far the smallest cut are getting "more than they should". So you support the state stealing more money or the evil gambling companies getting an increased cut?

Just trying to understand the logic

Well I guess I hate both sides then.....but there are differences(I'm woozy just took some Tylenol pm so my texting isn't sharp)

PN Abd CET are scumbags and shame on them....this is getting a little off topic but is in the ballpark....before I get into why let me say the racing side is getting a piece from the scum of the earth....there no better IMO

CET treats there employees like walmart employees,...under pay them
And and don't want to hear stories...let me explain what happened Friday

I go to the bathroom and on the way I see a wad of cash on ground with player card next to it....woman's name is blanch so I know she is old...

I bring it to the security desk and tell them I found this....they make a sign a piece of paper saying that if nobody claims it in 30 days it's mine....I don't sign it cus I don't want the money it's not mine...

Long story short the woman who is 77 walks in poker room and tried to put $10 bill in my tip box I cover it up and say its not necessary miss....sure enough the boss that was watcing this writes me up for rufusing to exept a tip....I said I'll sign it I gotta go to the bathroom.....I come back with a 2 week notice I'm quitting...f them...

Back on topic at hand I support the state for doing what they have to do to generate income......ie comping free rooms food cash back etc etc. etc

What do racetracks do? Bury u with takeout charge you for parking(ac does to but easy to get free parking) rob you for program cost and at concessions...

Sorry for the drift off topic but I'm just trying to set an example of how the horses are taking Money out of the casino/states pocket...

When I read this tnrw I know it will sound dumb

proximity
07-10-2013, 12:17 AM
Almost as silly as thinking giving them money will make racing better.


my stance has always been that this thing has been so poorly managed over the years (in monopoly or near monopoly conditions) that i was never against giving it a shot in the arm to help get things moving the right way. i just never saw any horsemen concern that, despite higher the higher purses, there really isn't any increased level of public excitement about the game.

on the contrary, a track like penn national used to have its own racing section in the local harrisburg paper. however, that section has been eliminated.

also i even understand somewhat where cannon shell is coming from. as a pennsylvania trainer cannon shell did deserve the opportunity to compete fairly for the increased purses and possibly increase his/her stake in the game over time. instead he/she is running at parx vs one of the biggest percentage juice trainers in history and finds a casino focused track and state racing commission with little ability/incentive to deal with the situation. i probably would have left parx too.

proximity
07-10-2013, 02:49 AM
"Fixing" racing is actually a pretty simple formula that of course seems unlikely to occur.

Better product at better prices while featuring the available technology.

Now of course there are a million barriers to allowing this to happen ranging from most track executives failure to understand racing or gambling, greed, short term thinking by horsemen, apathy, unwieldy legislation, poor PR, etc.

when I mention trainer short sightedness, it's "odd placement of blame," but looking back through the thread there it is on your own list of impediments to the growth of the game. :confused:

Cannon shell
07-10-2013, 05:22 PM
when I mention trainer short sightedness, it's "odd placement of blame," but looking back through the thread there it is on your own list of impediments to the growth of the game. :confused:
You blamed racino trainers for things over which they have no impact on or control of.

We talk in generalizations here about "racinos", "horsemen", "bettors", etc. while there are major differences within these generic designations. Just within the three PA TB tracks the difference between horsemans organizations is striking. One doesn't seem to do much, I don't even know who represents the horsemen at another and the third's leadership engages in looting the organization while doing very little that is in the best interests of the general population of their backside.

There is a certain southern Winter track where the horsemans representation has worked in cahoots with management to suppress purses because the makeup of the board is filled with long time, small trainers from weak jurisdictions whose stock would be further marginalized by an influx of better horses.

Are the needs and wants of the weekend warrior type bettor the same as the guy who is sending 100k a week through the windows? Should they be classified the same?

Just saying that when speaking in generalizations you will be able to pick apart minutiae all the time but that doesn't mean that your logic is sound or accurate to a large extent.

Zydeco
07-10-2013, 05:38 PM
Here we go....6PM eastern time and ......3 tracks getting ready to go off at the same time! Penn, Colonial and Indiana.

proximity
07-11-2013, 12:17 AM
You blamed racino trainers for things over which they have no impact on or control of.


since the g.m. goes on the backside and actually at least attempts to communicate with them they have a hell of a lot more control over things than the handful of regular players that remain.

and racino trainers shouldn't even exist at the horrible idea that was Presque isle, but as bad as it is for the game it was/is good for the horsemen and I've never heard a bad word about it.

proximity
07-11-2013, 01:51 AM
. Just within the three PA TB tracks the difference between horsemans organizations is striking. One doesn't seem to do much, I don't even know who represents the horsemen at another and the third's leadership engages in looting the organization while doing very little that is in the best interests of the general population of their backside.
.

both the pen hbpa and pa tha (parx) negotiate purse contracts with the tracks. in the absence of such a contract they can (and have) shut down simulcasting. so let's not pretend they are just some impotent organizations. of course today simulcast and live racing revenues are just a drop in the bucket at these venues and by far the lion's share of purses come from slots but in tough economic times public sentiment for the industry can easily be swayed and this money can be decreased and ultimately taken away. so player development and interest in the game should, imo, be of paramount importance to these groups. clearly it isn't or part of such agreements would be at least some small part of racing revenues (the mere drop in the bucket) being reinvested into aggressive on-track player rewards programs. this is my view.

ronsmac
07-11-2013, 12:16 PM
I remember being a kid in the late 70's, and hearing my dad and his friends talking about the rising take out in New York, the ridiculous surcharge at the OTB, the price for parking and admission, how the guys at the concession stands and the tellers would try to cheat you if you weren't watching carefully, and the ridiculous time in between races, oh yeah and dime breakage. the only thing I don't remember them complaining about is the field sizes which were better back then, and the overall quality of New York racing was pretty good. the point being racing has for customer service for a very long time. I think we just have more avenues to point it out today and more smart people on blogs like this.

Tom
07-11-2013, 12:27 PM
Here we go....6PM eastern time and ......3 tracks getting ready to go off at the same time! Penn, Colonial and Indiana.

Maybe they could let us play a trifecta in all three races at the same time.
Penn horse wins, CT horse places, Colonial up for show?

Stillriledup
07-11-2013, 01:30 PM
Maybe they could let us play a trifecta in all three races at the same time.
Penn horse wins, CT horse places, Colonial up for show?

Didnt they try this somewhere at some point, running more than one race at a time? They started a race on the turf course and on the dirt course at the same time. Maybe i just dreamed that and it didnt really happen?? :D

cj
07-11-2013, 01:30 PM
Didnt they try this somewhere at some point, running more than one race at a time? They started a race on the turf course and on the dirt course at the same time. Maybe i just dreamed that and it didnt really happen?? :D

Pretty sure it was Calder.

johnhannibalsmith
07-11-2013, 01:30 PM
Didnt they try this somewhere at some point, running more than one race at a time? They started a race on the turf course and on the dirt course at the same time. Maybe i just dreamed that and it didnt really happen?? :D

Calder, I think. Extreme racing day or something.

OTM Al
07-11-2013, 02:11 PM
Calder, I think. Extreme racing day or something.

It was billed as the world's fastest daily double and was run either the first or second "Extreme Day" at Calder

Stillriledup
07-11-2013, 02:33 PM
It was billed as the world's fastest daily double and was run either the first or second "Extreme Day" at Calder

Was the 2F "Rocket Man" stakes part of that?

OTM Al
07-11-2013, 02:36 PM
Was the 2F "Rocket Man" stakes part of that?

Yep, from the beginning I think, though it may have been on the Summit of Speed card before and even the first year of the Extreme Day cards

Tom
07-11-2013, 02:51 PM
A minute 12 and I was down tow for the day. :mad:

Cannon shell
07-11-2013, 04:02 PM
since the g.m. goes on the backside and actually at least attempts to communicate with them they have a hell of a lot more control over things than the handful of regular players that remain.

and racino trainers shouldn't even exist at the horrible idea that was Presque isle, but as bad as it is for the game it was/is good for the horsemen and I've never heard a bad word about it.
Not sure why PID is bad for the game?

I'd love to know what racino's GM takes advice from talking to people on the backside?

Cannon shell
07-11-2013, 04:08 PM
both the pen hbpa and pa tha (parx) negotiate purse contracts with the tracks. in the absence of such a contract they can (and have) shut down simulcasting. so let's not pretend they are just some impotent organizations. of course today simulcast and live racing revenues are just a drop in the bucket at these venues and by far the lion's share of purses come from slots but in tough economic times public sentiment for the industry can easily be swayed and this money can be decreased and ultimately taken away. so player development and interest in the game should, imo, be of paramount importance to these groups. clearly it isn't or part of such agreements would be at least some small part of racing revenues (the mere drop in the bucket) being reinvested into aggressive on-track player rewards programs. this is my view.
Think of horsemans groups as being like players unions in sports. When was the last time a players union worked in a reduction in ticket prices for the fans? And of course every player in their union is making a lot of money compared to the average guy and horsemans groups are negotiating for owners who almost all lose money and trainers who despite your assertions mostly aren't making a killing. Blame the track, you are their customer, not mine.

Saratoga_Mike
07-11-2013, 05:11 PM
Think of horsemans groups as being like players unions in sports. When was the last time a players union worked in a reduction in ticket prices for the fans? And of course every player in their union is making a lot of money compared to the average guy and horsemans groups are negotiating for owners who almost all lose money and trainers who despite your assertions mostly aren't making a killing. Blame the track, you are their customer, not mine.


With this attitude, most horsemen will end up the same place as the unionized Hostess Twinkie worker....out of work.

Most trainers making a killing? Obviously not - must have been an SRU assertion.

Cannon shell
07-11-2013, 05:47 PM
With this attitude, most horsemen will end up the same place as the unionized Hostess Twinkie worker....out of work.

Most trainers making a killing? Obviously not - must have been an SRU assertion.
That attitude is reality. The bettor is not the customer of the trainer. I don't know why you guys get all upset when you perceive trainers aren't going to bat for you but the fact is that you are the tracks customer, not ours. We supply the product, the track disseminates it. Just as I am not a customer of the factory that supplied the Nike shoes I bought today. If I have an issue with the shoes I complain to Nike, not the supplier.

Just because you indirectly provide funds for purses that I could potentially earn via wagering doesn't mean that you are my customer. This doesn't decrease the importance of the role bettors play in the business just that the anger directed at trainers is misguided.

cj
07-11-2013, 06:02 PM
Just because you indirectly provide funds for purses that I could potentially earn via wagering doesn't mean that you are my customer. This doesn't decrease the importance of the role bettors play in the business just that the anger directed at trainers is misguided.

I totally agree about that part. Trainers can and should get the best deal they possibly can from tracks. What I can gripe about is that they don't run their darn horses. Start having some decent sized fields and takeout won't be nearly as big of an issue. It can get better, but it can be stomached for a while.

Stillriledup
07-11-2013, 06:10 PM
With this attitude, most horsemen will end up the same place as the unionized Hostess Twinkie worker....out of work.

Most trainers making a killing? Obviously not - must have been an SRU assertion.

Where did i say most trainers make a killing?

thaskalos
07-11-2013, 06:12 PM
That attitude is reality. The bettor is not the customer of the trainer. I don't know why you guys get all upset when you perceive trainers aren't going to bat for you but the fact is that you are the tracks customer, not ours. We supply the product, the track disseminates it. Just as I am not a customer of the factory that supplied the Nike shoes I bought today. If I have an issue with the shoes I complain to Nike, not the supplier.

Just because you indirectly provide funds for purses that I could potentially earn via wagering doesn't mean that you are my customer. This doesn't decrease the importance of the role bettors play in the business just that the anger directed at trainers is misguided.
If the trainers are the purveyors of the product...then what's the role of the owners?

IMO...the owners are the real purveyors of the product...while the trainers are more like salesmen working mostly on commission.

They get paid by the purveyors of the product...in accordance with how good they are at what they do.

johnhannibalsmith
07-11-2013, 06:18 PM
.... Just as I am not a customer of the factory that supplied the Nike shoes I bought today. If I have an issue with the shoes I complain to Nike, not the supplier. ...

On the other hand, if the factory workers had a working relationship with Nike and input on the product and those workers were working on commission based on sales of Nikes, they might be willing to listen to the customers' complaints and look out for their own best interests by going to bat for the customers if Nike wouldn't do it. ;)

If it's constructive bitching and can be translated into a bigger purse fund (assuming a relic that relies on handle) by being addressed, hey, bitch away at me.

Cannon shell
07-11-2013, 06:19 PM
I totally agree about that part. Trainers can and should get the best deal they possibly can from tracks. What I can gripe about is that they don't run their darn horses. Start having some decent sized fields and takeout won't be nearly as big of an issue. It can get better, but it can be stomached for a while.
We have discussed it numerous times but only the super trainers and their affiliates (Sheriffs) actively look to not run mostly because they have so many horses in the same condition and need to dupe the owners at least for awhile.

Trainers win % has become so ridiculously important that eveyone is looking for that sweetspot to run. With condition books altered to cater to supertrainers and super claiming trainers with all these optional claiming races, phony stakes and conditioned claimers I don't see how the tables will be turned without all the tracks in a region working together. Used to be a 5k claimer was a 5k claimer. Now he might be a 5k nw2 or a 5k nw3 or a 5k nw4 or a 5k nw once in 6 mo, or a 5k nw2 tims in 6 mo, long and short. Easy to see how the horses worth 5k at a track can get divided up too many ways.

Cannon shell
07-11-2013, 06:21 PM
If the trainers are the purveyors of the product...then what's the role of the owners?

IMO...the owners are the real purveyors of the product...while the trainers are more like salesmen working mostly on commission.

They get paid by the purveyors of the product...in accordance with how good they are at what they do.
Fine we will go with your analysis. Even further proof that bettors aren't the customers of trainers.

Stillriledup
07-11-2013, 06:28 PM
We have discussed it numerous times but only the super trainers and their affiliates (Sheriffs) actively look to not run mostly because they have so many horses in the same condition and need to dupe the owners at least for awhile.

Trainers win % has become so ridiculously important that eveyone is looking for that sweetspot to run. With condition books altered to cater to supertrainers and super claiming trainers with all these optional claiming races, phony stakes and conditioned claimers I don't see how the tables will be turned without all the tracks in a region working together. Used to be a 5k claimer was a 5k claimer. Now he might be a 5k nw2 or a 5k nw3 or a 5k nw4 or a 5k nw once in 6 mo, or a 5k nw2 tims in 6 mo, long and short. Easy to see how the horses worth 5k at a track can get divided up too many ways.

This is true that many trainers, especially the ones who are always looking for new clients, need to win.

I think that trainers need to win because owners can't really tell one way or another which trainer is actually good and is a 'great horseman' in some other way. If you are a new prospective owner and you dont have inside connections in the game, how can you tell which trainers are really competent and which ones are not? That win percentage isnt always what its cracked up to be, if a trainer has huge vet bills and devalues his owner's assets to win, his win percentage isnt nearly as impressive as meets the eye.

Is there some way that a new, prospective owner can pick a trainer without having an inside connection to tell them who's good and who is not?

Also, wouldnt a prospective owner be 'concerned' if a trainer is winning 25% that the guy may be cheating? Do owners "Secretly" want to give horses to the cheat under the dont ask dont tell umbrella?

Cannon shell
07-11-2013, 06:32 PM
On the other hand, if the factory workers had a working relationship with Nike and input on the product and those workers were working on commission based on sales of Nikes, they might be willing to listen to the customers' complaints and look out for their own best interests by going to bat for the customers if Nike wouldn't do it. ;)

If it's constructive bitching and can be translated into a bigger purse fund (assuming a relic that relies on handle) by being addressed, hey, bitch away at me.
LOL yeah sure. The only reason that the tracks even remotely consult us is that we have veto control over simulcasts and they still need racing to operate slots.

The irony is that during my brief time at Parx I actually pushed for a plan where the horsemen gave up a chunk of their money in a slight purse decrease along with a reduction in days at slow times of the year as well as a push to cut takeout in half with us reimbursing the track short term for their temporary losses as well. Pay TVG to make the track a feature track, market to players using greatly reduced takeout and hopefully increased pool sizes as an incentive. As a year round track that is getting 80-90% of its purse money from slots it is a perfect place to try this. My pitch to horsemen was that track management wanted racing to die and wasn't going to do anything but lip service and would actively lobby against us with the politicians. The theory being that if you could make the handle double or triple (not impossible considering the levels that currently exist) the purses will increase, we would be further insulated from a reduction in slot money by the state and we would have a leg to stand on when we lobbied why the slot money was being put to valid use.

Of course no one there in any position of power had any interest.

Cannon shell
07-11-2013, 06:38 PM
This is true that many trainers, especially the ones who are always looking for new clients, need to win.

I think that trainers need to win because owners can't really tell one way or another which trainer is actually good and is a 'great horseman' in some other way. If you are a new prospective owner and you dont have inside connections in the game, how can you tell which trainers are really competent and which ones are not? That win percentage isnt always what its cracked up to be, if a trainer has huge vet bills and devalues his owner's assets to win, his win percentage isnt nearly as impressive as meets the eye.

Is there some way that a new, prospective owner can pick a trainer without having an inside connection to tell them who's good and who is not?

Also, wouldnt a prospective owner be 'concerned' if a trainer is winning 25% that the guy may be cheating? Do owners "Secretly" want to give horses to the cheat under the dont ask dont tell umbrella?
These are valid questions with no easy answers.

There have been owner education seminars and things like that but ironically they usually have the big partnership groups and a super trainer or two do the speaking which is like leading the lambs to slaughter.

I think more pretty horse people on the internet and bettors are concerned about the secrets behind the training geniuses than owners or track management. Those guys rarely have an owner shortage oran issue getting more stalls until they stop winning at unreal numbers.

Stillriledup
07-11-2013, 06:44 PM
LOL yeah sure. The only reason that the tracks even remotely consult us is that we have veto control over simulcasts and they still need racing to operate slots.

The irony is that during my brief time at Parx I actually pushed for a plan where the horsemen gave up a chunk of their money in a slight purse decrease along with a reduction in days at slow times of the year as well as a push to cut takeout in half with us reimbursing the track short term for their temporary losses as well. Pay TVG to make the track a feature track, market to players using greatly reduced takeout and hopefully increased pool sizes as an incentive. As a year round track that is getting 80-90% of its purse money from slots it is a perfect place to try this. My pitch to horsemen was that track management wanted racing to die and wasn't going to do anything but lip service and would actively lobby against us with the politicians. The theory being that if you could make the handle double or triple (not impossible considering the levels that currently exist) the purses will increase, we would be further insulated from a reduction in slot money by the state and we would have a leg to stand on when we lobbied why the slot money was being put to valid use.

Of course no one there in any position of power had any interest.

Great post and great ideas, that's probably why nobody wanted to listen, they didnt recognize what you were saying (its like you were speaking greek, good idea=greek to them)

TVG features Los Al and talks about them like they're a "real" track and they get 100k or more in their early pick 4 pools.

johnhannibalsmith
07-11-2013, 06:58 PM
LOL yeah sure. The only reason that the tracks even remotely consult us is that we have veto control over simulcasts and they still need racing to operate slots.

....

Of course no one there in any position of power had any interest.

I know... I'm delving more into the theoretical than the practical, and I really don't disagree with the overall picture you paint. I do think that in my half-dozen years as a member of this forum, I've probably heard fifty times as many good ideas from customers as I have in all the years at the track from fellow horsemen or management. I do think that ideally we all could do a little more on our end to at least be a receptive ear to those that do fill the fund so we aren't cast as villains. Getting somewhere with those ideas, or any idea that isn't a proven loser is another ball of wax, but I'll still do what I can to pimp a good idea or advance a legit complaint when I hear it.

Cannon shell
07-11-2013, 07:20 PM
I know... I'm delving more into the theoretical than the practical, and I really don't disagree with the overall picture you paint. I do think that in my half-dozen years as a member of this forum, I've probably heard fifty times as many good ideas from customers as I have in all the years at the track from fellow horsemen or management. I do think that ideally we all could do a little more on our end to at least be a receptive ear to those that do fill the fund so we aren't cast as villains. Getting somewhere with those ideas, or any idea that isn't a proven loser is another ball of wax, but I'll still do what I can to pimp a good idea or advance a legit complaint when I hear it.
No doubt. I still don't think people realize how bleak things are for a huge % of horsemen right now. Hard to think of sacrifice when you can't make ends meet.
I guess what I was conveying is that takeout and slot revenue have a lot of hands dipping into them and the smallest hand is usually the purse account. I get that people actually see the purse numbers and how it seems out of whack and they don't know or see how much the state siphons off or how much the tracks rake in.

Jeff P
07-11-2013, 08:29 PM
Link to North American thoroughbred handle numbers published at the Jockey Club website:
http://www.jockeyclub.com/factbook.asp?section=8

In 2003, all sources handle, or total customer spend, for North American thoroughbred racing was $15.9 Billion.

That number has shrunk every year since then.

For calendar year 2012 that number (total customer spend on the product) came in at $10.5 billion.

That's a 33% revenue loss in just 9 years (not adjusted for inflation.)

Link to a CNN.com article about the George Zimmerman trial:
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/10/justice/zimmerman-trial/

In the above article, former police officer Dennis Root was quoted as saying:
"We have a golden rule," he told defense attorney Mark O'Mara. " If you have not successfully completed the fight, if you have not won the fight in 30 seconds, change tactics, because the tactics you are using are not working."

Here we are now about halfway through calendar year 2013. As it so happens, thoroughbred racing is currently on track to make it 10 years in a row where total customer spend on the product has shrunk.

How much more of doing the same thing over and over again (and getting poor results because you are willfully ignoring the needs and wants of racing's customer base) are you willing to take?

Instead of demanding a bigger slice of the pie each time a signal contract comes up for renewal - instead of lobbying state government for new laws calling for ever higher takeouts, ever higher source market fees, and ever higher ADW taxes:

Owners and Trainers should be DEMANDING that track management (and politicians charged with regulating track management) do the exact opposite.

Unless that is, the number you have in mind for total customer spend on the product nine years from now happens to be $6B (instead of the $15.9B that it was just nine years ago.)


-jp

.

Fager Fan
07-11-2013, 09:01 PM
...that one day there were only five thoroughbred tracks running in the US, and they actually coordinated their schedules so three of them didn't run races right on top of each other.

Crazy stuff, eh?

That you, Nostradamus?

Robert Goren
07-11-2013, 09:11 PM
Instead of getting a bigger piece of the pie, horsemen need to realize that the thing to do is make the pie bigger. Then everybody wins. Chasing away bettors makes sure everybody loses.
Everybody talks about the low regard the horsemen hold the bettors in and they do. But with exception of the rich owners who were regarded as fools and suckers, the horsemen were considered one step above Gypsies in my youth. I am not sure they have improved their image much in the last 50 years. If they have, they working their way back down in the public eye in last few years. Something you horsemen to think about.

OCF
07-11-2013, 09:34 PM
Instead of getting a bigger piece of the pie, horsemen need to realize that the thing to do is make the pie bigger. Then everybody wins. Chasing away bettors makes sure everybody loses.

Well said :ThmbUp:

JustRalph
07-11-2013, 10:02 PM
The pie is shrinking daily and the pie maker is ignoring the fact that the pie pans are getting smaller.

I have no sympathy for anybody supplying ingredients.

Stillriledup
07-11-2013, 10:16 PM
The pie is shrinking daily and the pie maker is ignoring the fact that the pie pans are getting smaller.

I have no sympathy for anybody supplying ingredients.

Horsemen are also fighting against exchange wagering...even though exchange wagering is good for the player, it gives the player more options and yet, the horsemen are fighting against it because there is "nothing in it for them"

The game should be able the player, technology in 2013 is obviously much more advanced than it was decades ago, we are trying to keep the genie in the bottle and the genie wants out.

cj
07-11-2013, 10:18 PM
That you, Nostradamus?

For the record, I was never trying to dredge up the old "too many tracks" argument. I was just lamenting the poor scheduling.

Fager Fan
07-11-2013, 10:24 PM
Instead of getting a bigger piece of the pie, horsemen need to realize that the thing to do is make the pie bigger. Then everybody wins. Chasing away bettors makes sure everybody loses.
Everybody talks about the low regard the horsemen hold the bettors in and they do. But with exception of the rich owners who were regarded as fools and suckers, the horsemen were considered one step above Gypsies in my youth. I am not sure they have improved their image much in the last 50 years. If they have, they working their way back down in the public eye in last few years. Something you horsemen to think about.

No one in racing actually thinks it will survive, so they're just hoping to get to retirement with some money in their pockets. The 30-and-under set are already being advised by their elders to look at different occupations.

Tom
07-11-2013, 10:37 PM
With this attitude, most horsemen will end up the same place as the unionized Hostess Twinkie worker....out of work.

Most trainers making a killing? Obviously not - must have been an SRU assertion.
Twinkies back, July 15.
Carry on.

Jeff P
07-11-2013, 11:00 PM
From the Jockey Club website...

Driving sustainable growth for Thoroughbred racing and breeding: Introduction:
http://www.jockeyclub.com/roundtable_11.asp?section=5

In the wake of last year's Round Table, I had a visit from one of our members — Nick Brady — who suggested that perhaps the time had come for a comprehensive and objective study of the industry. In fact, this was similar advice that I had received from Ted Bassett, and my predecessor, Alan Marzelli.

Our records showed that the last study of this depth and magnitude was a 1975 report commissioned by The Jockey Club and conducted by Pugh-Roberts Associates of Boston. It was called, "The Future of Thoroughbred Racing in the United States."

When I dug a copy of that document out of the archives last fall, I found references to actions that "might significantly affect the industry's future." Among them:

• Changes in takeout
• Expansion of off-track betting
• Changes in federal tax treatment of the industry

One of the primary questions addressed in the study was: If the industry continues as it's going, what are the prospects for the next 10 years?

In the end, the authors predicted that "it was inevitable that a period of consolidation is ahead."

So we made copies of the report and circulated it among several colleagues, many of whom remarked about its accuracy, particularly from the perspective of 36 years later.

One of the things that came about as a result of the Round Table presentation mentioned at the above link was that the Jockey Club went on to commission McKinsey & Company to prepare yet another report full of economic recommendations for racing.

That report cost the industry a tidy sum. And like most of the previously paid for reports of its kind - to the best of my knowledge - the industry has done literally nothing in the way of implementing the recommendations that it paid for.

FYI, the Casino industry has paid out significant money to consulting firms for expert recommendations too. But unlike racing (which has lost significant market share to casinos) the casinos actually have a history of implementing the paid for recommendations of their economic experts.

Is it any wonder that the growth curve for the casino industry and the growth curve for racing have been on two different trajectories over the past 15 years or so?

Getting back to the question/topic posed by CJ at the top of this thread:

Tracks running their races on top of each other (to their own detriment.)

Fact: One of the recommendations in the above mentioned McKinsey & Company Report was that tracks find a way to stagger their races so as to not run them on top of each other.

Such a simple suggestion. (A way to increase handle with literally LITTLE TO NO COST to implement.)

Yet here were are a year later (the next Round Table is coming up soon) and we players (racing's customers) are still posting about it...

While betting handle (you remember handle don't you? It's that thing we do that you don't want to admit we do that drives your purses) continues to circle the drain.



-jp

.

Tom
07-11-2013, 11:07 PM
There is a new invention out that could possibly solve the age-old problem of tracks overlapping post times. Details of its use need to ironed out, but it looks promising.

proximity
07-12-2013, 12:38 AM
The irony is that during my brief time at Parx I actually pushed for a plan where the horsemen gave up a chunk of their money in a slight purse decrease along with a reduction in days at slow times of the year as well as a push to cut takeout in half with us reimbursing the track short term for their temporary losses as well. Pay TVG to make the track a feature track, market to players using greatly reduced takeout and hopefully increased pool sizes as an incentive. As a year round track that is getting 80-90% of its purse money from slots it is a perfect place to try this. My pitch to horsemen was that track management wanted racing to die and wasn't going to do anything but lip service and would actively lobby against us with the politicians. The theory being that if you could make the handle double or triple (not impossible considering the levels that currently exist) the purses will increase, we would be further insulated from a reduction in slot money by the state and we would have a leg to stand on when we lobbied why the slot money was being put to valid use.

Of course no one there in any position of power had any interest.

well, I think your plan was a great plan and I give you all the credit in the world for trying to reach these people.

as to why i'm not directing any blame towards the racino "tracks," it is because it is way too late for that. they have no interest in reviving the game or even putting in any effort to make it profitable.

and I think Presque isle was a bad idea because it further spread out an already declining horse population in the region. we have one nba team in the state, but we need three t-bred circuits running at the same time? we could have just given a share of their slots money to the two existing tracks (like Maryland) and had better racing with bigger fields like maybe Remington or Evangeline. but big competitive fields isn't the horsemen way.

wiffleball whizz
07-12-2013, 01:46 AM
Not sure if this is relevant to this thread but I think it is I read a article earlier and it looks like Delaware is gasping for air......the state had to kick in some 100million to help avoid layoffs.......big purse cuts coming to Delaware park/...

These casinos are cannabolizing everything.....pa killed jersey now pa is crying poverty And now Maryland is keeping the money in the state:...


Seriously can't wait to hear the horsemen cry

Contraction is coming boys!!!!!!! And racing will prosper from it

burnsy
07-12-2013, 08:53 AM
Not sure if this is relevant to this thread but I think it is I read a article earlier and it looks like Delaware is gasping for air......the state had to kick in some 100million to help avoid layoffs.......big purse cuts coming to Delaware park/...

These casinos are cannabolizing everything.....pa killed jersey now pa is crying poverty And now Maryland is keeping the money in the state:...


Seriously can't wait to hear the horsemen cry

Contraction is coming boys!!!!!!! And racing will prosper from it

Its all basic economics and business, something most people don't understand. The casinos looked great......at first. Now that theres one at EVERY corner, they are not an "easy" lock to succeed. Of course the one at Aqueduct will crush, theres like 5 million people in the area.....others will feel the same pinch the tracks are getting. Your contraction statement is dead on. Thats how free enterprise works, the strong survive and the weak find jobs or investments elsewhere.

This is what the guys on tv, radio and writing for horse racing don't understand. Byk was on with the usual cast of characters. Saying, "the small field sizes and people complaining is a "phony" argument". Several things wrong with that....A. If your best customers are bitching....you should listen. B. They compared yesteryear to today.......5 horse fields with 2 or 3 good, competitive horses are sometimes great races....races with 5 horses and 1 good one are NOT. C. Racing used to be INCLUDED on ALL sports coverage years ago, now people don't even care to look at who is winning or the story of racing unless its a certain time of year. In other words these people promoting racing, don't really want to admit that there is a problem. They would rather denegrade people for pointing it out. When a business is hitting on all cylinders, you don't have to change. Clearly, horse racing is not in that position. When things need to be improved you have to shake things up or suffer the concequences.....well, racing just likes to suffer and make excuses..Don't you know? People pointing out the problem....are the problem? :bang: ...thats the BIGGEST problem and once that happens....contraction is inevitable. Its not just money with sports entertainment, the product HAS to be exciting and capturing the publics attention...Can anyone honestly sit there and say horse racing is accomplishing this? If you do, you are lying to yourself.

Saratoga_Mike
07-12-2013, 09:24 AM
Where did i say most trainers make a killing?

You reported spotting marginal trainers with wads of $100s driving around in luxury vehicles - you implied it.

Saratoga_Mike
07-12-2013, 09:35 AM
That attitude is reality. The bettor is not the customer of the trainer. I don't know why you guys get all upset when you perceive trainers aren't going to bat for you but the fact is that you are the tracks customer, not ours. We supply the product, the track disseminates it. Just as I am not a customer of the factory that supplied the Nike shoes I bought today. If I have an issue with the shoes I complain to Nike, not the supplier.

Just because you indirectly provide funds for purses that I could potentially earn via wagering doesn't mean that you are my customer. This doesn't decrease the importance of the role bettors play in the business just that the anger directed at trainers is misguided.

I'm not angry with you. I've owned about 30 horses over the past 15 yrs. I bet recreationally - playing a couple times/month.

Your Nike analogy is a poor one, though, as the factory holds little (if any) influence over Nike, whereas the horsemen can most certainly influence--note I said influence, not direct -- management. With this influence, perhaps you should advocate for the customer because without the customer there's no purse money.

Robert Goren
07-12-2013, 10:03 AM
That attitude is reality. The bettor is not the customer of the trainer. I don't know why you guys get all upset when you perceive trainers aren't going to bat for you but the fact is that you are the tracks customer, not ours. We supply the product, the track disseminates it. Just as I am not a customer of the factory that supplied the Nike shoes I bought today. If I have an issue with the shoes I complain to Nike, not the supplier.

Just because you indirectly provide funds for purses that I could potentially earn via wagering doesn't mean that you are my customer. This doesn't decrease the importance of the role bettors play in the business just that the anger directed at trainers is misguided.In today's world, the horsemen control the tracks or at least certain horsemen cliques do. You may or may not be in one of those cliques, but lets, at least, stop pretending they aren't running things at most tracks. It may have always been that way, I don't know. But today, it is pretty obvious.

burnsy
07-12-2013, 10:21 AM
In today's world, the horsemen control the tracks or at least certain horsemen cliques do. You may or may not be in one of those cliques, but lets, at least, stop pretending they aren't running things at most tracks. It may have always been that way, I don't know. But today, it is pretty obvious.

That was the one redeeming, good thing that was said on that radio show. These trainers with 2 or 300 horses, they have so many, i don't even know the real number, are not good for this game....whats even worse is when they train MOST of the GOOD horses. The sport is in desparate need of MORE competition not LESS. Yeah, it works out great for a certain number of people, but what about horse racing overall, the bettors and the fans? Racing has NO BALLS, nobody calling the shots, the leadership sucks. Whats next, Kentucky Derby with 18 horses trained by 3 guys? Then they all separate to different sections of the country and never race each other? Makes for some REAL exciting racing, doesn't it? :lol: I like trainers, i wish there were like two dozen more top ones.....then maybe horses would actually have to face off.

lamboguy
07-12-2013, 11:27 AM
That was the one redeeming, good thing that was said on that radio show. These trainers with 2 or 300 horses, they have so many, i don't even know the real number, are not good for this game....whats even worse is when they train MOST of the GOOD horses. The sport is in desparate need of MORE competition not LESS. Yeah, it works out great for a certain number of people, but what about horse racing overall, the bettors and the fans? Racing has NO BALLS, nobody calling the shots, the leadership sucks. Whats next, Kentucky Derby with 18 horses trained by 3 guys? Then they all separate to different sections of the country and never race each other? Makes for some REAL exciting racing, doesn't it? :lol: I like trainers, i wish there were like two dozen more top ones.....then maybe horses would actually have to face off.90% of the stake races are won by about 10% of the trainers. i know we are in America and not in the far east, but they have a decent solution to this, if you don't make performance numbers, you don't get a license to train. they also have limits on the amount of horses a trainer can train, and owner can own. they are also much more strict on their rules. they got 20 horse competitive fields with $100 million handles every day they open up the doors there with a smaller population than what is in this country.

wiffleball whizz
07-12-2013, 01:15 PM
Just to clarify a statement I made before Delaware is kicking in 8 million to avoid layoffs not 100 million.....said the Delaware house of representative from
Delaware this 8 million is a band aid for a bullet hole

Cannon shell
07-12-2013, 01:58 PM
Link to North American thoroughbred handle numbers published at the Jockey Club website:
http://www.jockeyclub.com/factbook.asp?section=8

In 2003, all sources handle, or total customer spend, for North American thoroughbred racing was $15.9 Billion.

That number has shrunk every year since then.

For calendar year 2012 that number (total customer spend on the product) came in at $10.5 billion.

That's a 33% revenue loss in just 9 years (not adjusted for inflation.)

Link to a CNN.com article about the George Zimmerman trial:
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/10/justice/zimmerman-trial/

In the above article, former police officer Dennis Root was quoted as saying:


Here we are now about halfway through calendar year 2013. As it so happens, thoroughbred racing is currently on track to make it 10 years in a row where total customer spend on the product has shrunk.

How much more of doing the same thing over and over again (and getting poor results because you are willfully ignoring the needs and wants of racing's customer base) are you willing to take?

Instead of demanding a bigger slice of the pie each time a signal contract comes up for renewal - instead of lobbying state government for new laws calling for ever higher takeouts, ever higher source market fees, and ever higher ADW taxes:

Owners and Trainers should be DEMANDING that track management (and politicians charged with regulating track management) do the exact opposite.

Unless that is, the number you have in mind for total customer spend on the product nine years from now happens to be $6B (instead of the $15.9B that it was just nine years ago.)


-jp

.
2 things
-The number of races has also gone down over the same period. While the shrinking handle number is troubling using total handle and ignoring the decline in number of available races paints a bit of a faulty picture.
-The idea that trainers and owners can demand anything from tracks or that any but a small handful of politicians would care is sadly out of touch with reality. At many tracks we fight (mostly unscuessfully) to get them to supply toilet paper to the backside bathrooms and put water on the racetrack during heatwaves. If you think that we can get them to "sacrifice" thier revenue however small, however short term, however a good idea it would be when we cant get them to run the water truck a few extra times a day....well you can figure it out.

Cannon shell
07-12-2013, 02:04 PM
Instead of getting a bigger piece of the pie, horsemen need to realize that the thing to do is make the pie bigger. Then everybody wins. Chasing away bettors makes sure everybody loses.
Everybody talks about the low regard the horsemen hold the bettors in and they do. But with exception of the rich owners who were regarded as fools and suckers, the horsemen were considered one step above Gypsies in my youth. I am not sure they have improved their image much in the last 50 years. If they have, they working their way back down in the public eye in last few years. Something you horsemen to think about.
Perhaps if you wrote, "Instead of getting a bigger piece of the pie, horsemen and track management and state politicians need to realize that the thing to do is make the pie bigger. Then everybody wins. Chasing away bettors makes sure everybody loses."

Horsemen have the least clout, least ability to do anything and most at stake.

This nonsense that the horsemen have a low regard for bettors is almost childish.

Saratoga_Mike
07-12-2013, 02:07 PM
2 things
-The number of races has also gone down over the same period. While the shrinking handle number is troubling using total handle and ignoring the decline in number of available races paints a bit of a faulty picture.
.

True, but the handle decline has been much more severe.

Some interesting industry stats in here (you may have already seen this)...

http://www.jockeyclub.com/resources/selected_exhibits_1.pdf

Cannon shell
07-12-2013, 02:09 PM
Horsemen are also fighting against exchange wagering...even though exchange wagering is good for the player, it gives the player more options and yet, the horsemen are fighting against it because there is "nothing in it for them"

The game should be able the player, technology in 2013 is obviously much more advanced than it was decades ago, we are trying to keep the genie in the bottle and the genie wants out.
NJ horsemen are fully behind exchange wagering last I heard. Stop painting with broad strokes.

I'd increase my play 100 fold with exchange wagering. However if the take is too high and massive steps in security aren't taken exchange wagering in this country is just not a good idea until these things are addressed.

Cannon shell
07-12-2013, 02:17 PM
well, I think your plan was a great plan and I give you all the credit in the world for trying to reach these people.

as to why i'm not directing any blame towards the racino "tracks," it is because it is way too late for that. they have no interest in reviving the game or even putting in any effort to make it profitable.

and I think Presque isle was a bad idea because it further spread out an already declining horse population in the region. we have one nba team in the state, but we need three t-bred circuits running at the same time? we could have just given a share of their slots money to the two existing tracks (like Maryland) and had better racing with bigger fields like maybe Remington or Evangeline. but big competitive fields isn't the horsemen way.
The barn area's at the other 2 tracks in the state are already full. Many of the midwest shippers running at PID would rarely show up at Penn or Parx. You will never see a track be allowed to send money out of state, especially slots derived money.

Lol PID wasn't a horsemans idea. It was Mountaineer gaming wanting a foot in the door to PA's slot bonanza. Having a track was the only way at the time. If they get rid of the racing there they will lobby (probably successfully) to not have to give the horsemen anything or a very small sliver.

And I'm not sure that the Sixers will qualify as an NBA team next year, they may drop down in class to the D-league for a year.

Cannon shell
07-12-2013, 02:19 PM
Not sure if this is relevant to this thread but I think it is I read a article earlier and it looks like Delaware is gasping for air......the state had to kick in some 100million to help avoid layoffs.......big purse cuts coming to Delaware park/...

These casinos are cannabolizing everything.....pa killed jersey now pa is crying poverty And now Maryland is keeping the money in the state:...


Seriously can't wait to hear the horsemen cry

Contraction is coming boys!!!!!!! And racing will prosper from it
Delaware Park wants racing to go away.
Contraction has been occurring for 20 years.
Hasn't helped so far.

Cannon shell
07-12-2013, 02:25 PM
Its all basic economics and business, something most people don't understand. The casinos looked great......at first. Now that theres one at EVERY corner, they are not an "easy" lock to succeed. Of course the one at Aqueduct will crush, theres like 5 million people in the area.....others will feel the same pinch the tracks are getting. Your contraction statement is dead on. Thats how free enterprise works, the strong survive and the weak find jobs or investments elsewhere.

This is what the guys on tv, radio and writing for horse racing don't understand. Byk was on with the usual cast of characters. Saying, "the small field sizes and people complaining is a "phony" argument". Several things wrong with that....A. If your best customers are bitching....you should listen. B. They compared yesteryear to today.......5 horse fields with 2 or 3 good, competitive horses are sometimes great races....races with 5 horses and 1 good one are NOT. C. Racing used to be INCLUDED on ALL sports coverage years ago, now people don't even care to look at who is winning or the story of racing unless its a certain time of year. In other words these people promoting racing, don't really want to admit that there is a problem. They would rather denegrade people for pointing it out. When a business is hitting on all cylinders, you don't have to change. Clearly, horse racing is not in that position. When things need to be improved you have to shake things up or suffer the concequences.....well, racing just likes to suffer and make excuses..Don't you know? People pointing out the problem....are the problem? :bang: ...thats the BIGGEST problem and once that happens....contraction is inevitable. Its not just money with sports entertainment, the product HAS to be exciting and capturing the publics attention...Can anyone honestly sit there and say horse racing is accomplishing this? If you do, you are lying to yourself.

Contraction has been happening for 25 years

1989 the US ran 74071 races
2012 the US ran 45086 races

Funny thing about field size is that it hasn't changed all that much
1965 avg field size 8.59
2012 avg field size 7.89

Cannon shell
07-12-2013, 02:29 PM
I'm not angry with you. I've owned about 30 horses over the past 15 yrs. I bet recreationally - playing a couple times/month.

Your Nike analogy is a poor one, though, as the factory holds little (if any) influence over Nike, whereas the horsemen can most certainly influence--note I said influence, not direct -- management. With this influence, perhaps you should advocate for the customer because without the customer there's no purse money.
I believe that the one consistent theme that is misconstrued is that horsemen have much influence with management. At most tracks we constantly fight losing battles with management (see Calder) with our own issues. The idea that they would even give it a second thought if horsemen advocated for bettors is sadly not reality.

Cannon shell
07-12-2013, 02:32 PM
In today's world, the horsemen control the tracks or at least certain horsemen cliques do. You may or may not be in one of those cliques, but lets, at least, stop pretending they aren't running things at most tracks. It may have always been that way, I don't know. But today, it is pretty obvious.
You have no idea what you are talking about.

What exactly is "running things"?

Certain people have favored status in every endeavor of life.

Charli125
07-12-2013, 02:36 PM
The number of races has also gone down over the same period. While the shrinking handle number is troubling using total handle and ignoring the decline in number of available races paints a bit of a faulty picture.
Let's stop using the number of races as an excuse for handle going down. Hong Kong ran 83 races, and out-handled the entire US.

Horsemen have the least clout, least ability to do anything and most at stake.
Take a look at the TOC, and see if you want to revise that statement. The horsemen have 100% of the clout in CA at least, including setting takeout rates at the tracks, etc. In many other jurisdictions it's similar, WA is a good example, so is Ohio, insert pretty much every jurisdiction as another good example. Horsemen have everything to do with takeout increases, source market fees, etc.

If horsemen would band together to cut their costs through things like food and supply co-ops, consolidating vets, etc., or to suggest that some of the slots windfall should be spent to grow the game rather than to fatten their wallets(or lessen the speed in which their wallets empty), they could provide long-term improvement. Instead, they band together to increase takeout, fight for more slots money to fund purses, and do everything they can to enrich themselves in the short-term.

Not saying you personally are doing these things, but horsemen as a whole are.

Cannon shell
07-12-2013, 02:39 PM
That was the one redeeming, good thing that was said on that radio show. These trainers with 2 or 300 horses, they have so many, i don't even know the real number, are not good for this game....whats even worse is when they train MOST of the GOOD horses. The sport is in desparate need of MORE competition not LESS. Yeah, it works out great for a certain number of people, but what about horse racing overall, the bettors and the fans? Racing has NO BALLS, nobody calling the shots, the leadership sucks. Whats next, Kentucky Derby with 18 horses trained by 3 guys? Then they all separate to different sections of the country and never race each other? Makes for some REAL exciting racing, doesn't it? :lol: I like trainers, i wish there were like two dozen more top ones.....then maybe horses would actually have to face off.
I have spoken in private with several "top" racing leaders about this and you'd be as appalled at what they say as I was. I have no interest in having 100 horses or training for some of the "leading" owners who either don't pay, treat you as though they are preordained to win or both. However it is pretty clear that the graded stakes level races in this country suffer because only a handful of people are deemed worthy to train these types of horses. Other levels are diluted but not to the extent of the top.

Cannon shell
07-12-2013, 02:41 PM
True, but the handle decline has been much more severe.

Some interesting industry stats in here (you may have already seen this)...

http://www.jockeyclub.com/resources/selected_exhibits_1.pdf
Understood but many people speak as though contraction was "coming". It has been here a long time.

proximity
07-12-2013, 02:45 PM
The barn area's at the other 2 tracks in the state are already full. .

apparently not full enough since outside of the two turf races pen can't even come close to filling a field tonight.

Cannon shell
07-12-2013, 02:46 PM
Let's stop using the number of races as an excuse for handle going down. Hong Kong ran 83 races, and out-handled the entire US.


Take a look at the TOC, and see if you want to revise that statement. The horsemen have 100% of the clout in CA at least, including setting takeout rates at the tracks, etc. In many other jurisdictions it's similar, WA is a good example, so is Ohio, insert pretty much every jurisdiction as another good example. Horsemen have everything to do with takeout increases, source market fees, etc.

If horsemen would band together to cut their costs through things like food and supply co-ops, consolidating vets, etc., or to suggest that some of the slots windfall should be spent to grow the game rather than to fatten their wallets(or lessen the speed in which their wallets empty), they could provide long-term improvement. Instead, they band together to increase takeout, fight for more slots money to fund purses, and do everything they can to enrich themselves in the short-term.

Not saying you personally are doing these things, but horsemen as a whole are.
Hong Kong and the US are apples and oranges.

I dont see anyone lobbying the track to take a lesser cut to decrease takeout and increase handle. Wouldn't it benefit them?

Horsemen have co ops in many places. I have no idea how to consolidate vets.

Why dont bettors contribute their rebates to a fund to market the sport?

Cannon shell
07-12-2013, 02:50 PM
Let's stop using the number of races as an excuse for handle going down. Hong Kong ran 83 races, and out-handled the entire US.


Take a look at the TOC, and see if you want to revise that statement. The horsemen have 100% of the clout in CA at least, including setting takeout rates at the tracks, etc. In many other jurisdictions it's similar, WA is a good example, so is Ohio, insert pretty much every jurisdiction as another good example. Horsemen have everything to do with takeout increases, source market fees, etc.

If horsemen would band together to cut their costs through things like food and supply co-ops, consolidating vets, etc., or to suggest that some of the slots windfall should be spent to grow the game rather than to fatten their wallets(or lessen the speed in which their wallets empty), they could provide long-term improvement. Instead, they band together to increase takeout, fight for more slots money to fund purses, and do everything they can to enrich themselves in the short-term.

Not saying you personally are doing these things, but horsemen as a whole are.

You fail to mention that as handle has shifted from on track where horsemen get a bigger cut to off track where they get a lesser cut with overall handles declining isnt it logical that we fight for our share?

cj
07-12-2013, 02:52 PM
You fail to mention that as handle has shifted from on track where horsemen get a bigger cut to off track where they get a lesser cut with overall handles declining isnt it logical that we fight for our share?

Weren't horsemen a bit short sighted to agree to that deal years ago? If you ask me, that is a huge problem you guys should be fighting to fix.

Cannon shell
07-12-2013, 02:53 PM
apparently not full enough since outside of the two turf races pen can't even come close to filling a field tonight.
They have 2 turf races with a 10 and 11 horse fields. They refuse to use the turf more. I have no idea why.

Cannon shell
07-12-2013, 03:02 PM
Weren't horsemen a bit short sighted to agree to that deal years ago? If you ask me, that is a huge problem you guys should be fighting to fix.
It was but in many ways when CDI bought Youbet they made an endrun and treat themselves as two separate interests when deal with on and off track handle. Between them and Magna or whatever Stronach is called now both being heavily invested in ADW providers it is a losing battle.

CDI has a lot of balls. They bought youbet, turned it into twinspires and set up tables to signup people by the entrance of CD. That is understandable until they started telling on track customers NOT to bet with their on track rewards card and call up and bet with twinspires while AT the track. I think that at the time the % for purses was 7% on track and close to 4% off.

Charli125
07-12-2013, 03:06 PM
Hong Kong and the US are apples and oranges.
Racing is racing. Despite the differences, if they can do it, we should at least look at how and see if we can do the same.

I dont see anyone lobbying the track to take a lesser cut to decrease takeout and increase handle. Wouldn't it benefit them?
Lot's of people have lobbied the tracks to take a lesser cut. The difference is that they've actually done it! I'll use CA as an example again. CA tracks make no money on the P5, it all goes to purses. The tracks also offered to split the "cost" of lowering the takeout on other exotic wagers. TOC said no. Tracks have invested in marketing, they've made short-term sacrifices for the long-term betterment of the game, horsemen have not.

Horsemen have co ops in many places. I have no idea how to consolidate vets.
I don't know exactly how either, that's your business. I don't tell amazon how to buy what they're selling me at better prices, they do it so that they can offer good prices. I do know that if one vet was working for multiple trainers, and had fixed rates based on the volume of work which they're guaranteed, you could expect a better price. I also know that if you bought medications in bulk, you would get a better price. I'm not a horseman, I am a business man though, and those are pretty basic business principals.

Why dont bettors contribute their rebates to a fund to market the sport?
You're joking right? Just trying to get a rise out of me? So the customer should pay more so that you can get more customers and make more money? With this kind of thinking it's no wonder handle is off so bad. You just flunked Business 101.

Cannon shell
07-12-2013, 03:10 PM
Racing is racing. Despite the differences, if they can do it, we should at least look at how and see if we can do the same.


Lot's of people have lobbied the tracks to take a lesser cut. The difference is that they've actually done it! I'll use CA as an example again. CA tracks make no money on the P5, it all goes to purses. The tracks also offered to split the "cost" of lowering the takeout on other exotic wagers. TOC said no. Tracks have invested in marketing, they've made short-term sacrifices for the long-term betterment of the game, horsemen have not.


I don't know exactly how either, that's your business. I don't tell amazon how to buy what they're selling me at better prices, they do it so that they can offer good prices. I do know that if one vet was working for multiple trainers, and had fixed rates based on the volume of work which they're guaranteed, you could expect a better price. I also know that if you bought medications in bulk, you would get a better price. I'm not a horseman, I am a business man though, and those are pretty basic business principals.


You're joking right? Just trying to get a rise out of me? So the customer should pay more so that you can get more customers and make more money? With this kind of thinking it's no wonder handle is off so bad. You just flunked Business 101.


Lol just pointing out how easy it is to spend other peoples money.

I don't know of any business 101 classes that would say that there is a valid comparison between Hong Kong racing and that in the United States by saying "racing is racing".

Cannon shell
07-12-2013, 03:12 PM
It is amusing to me that a person is lauding tracks in California for all the horseplayer friendly moves they supposedly make when Bay Meadows is rubble and Hollywood is gonna be a shopping mall soon.

proximity
07-12-2013, 03:24 PM
and they are not slots tracks. once the slots are in you can forget about the track listening to players. they want racing gone.

proximity
07-12-2013, 03:27 PM
Caesars and PN are as bad a company there is in gambling



I know you're not happy with them, but Caesar's just invited me to horseshoe Cleveland with a bunch of match play coupons!!

my next match play coupon from penn gaming will be my first.

Charli125
07-12-2013, 03:35 PM
It is amusing to me that a person is lauding tracks in California for all the horseplayer friendly moves they supposedly make when Bay Meadows is rubble and Hollywood is gonna be a shopping mall soon.
Not sure what part of my post made it sound like I was lauding CA for their horseplayer friendly moves. CA made one horseplayer friendly move, in an effort to dig itself out of a hole created by making several very horseplayer unfriendly moves. They're still at a huge net loss based on the unfriendly moves. They lost over $200 million in handle that they'll never get back.

I'm simply using CA as an example of the TRACKS attempting to make a short-term sacrifice for a long-term gain, and I'm blaming the TOC for blocking those attempts. Which is a direct response to you saying that horsemen have no power, and suggesting that the tracks should make a sacrifice. The tracks have made efforts and sacrifices, the horsemen have not. It's just an excellent example of horsemen screwing it up for the rest of us, and in the long run, costing themselves money.

As for the business 101 comment, it was related to your buying methods, not Hong Kong. But, it is a very standard business move, to look at an industry that's thriving, and to attempt to copy/borrow whatever they're doing to be so successful.

Sustainability is a great example. It started in the paper industry, where they would plant trees to replace the ones they were cutting down. This turned out to be a great marketing tool, and now pretty much every industry out there has a sustainable something or other as part of their brand messaging. Cars, restaurants, computers, retail, fashion, etc. Just because two industries aren't exactly the same does't mean they can't learn from eachother.

Stillriledup
07-12-2013, 03:41 PM
Not sure what part of my post made it sound like I was lauding CA for their horseplayer friendly moves. CA made one horseplayer friendly move, in an effort to dig itself out of a hole created by making several very horseplayer unfriendly moves. They're still at a huge net loss based on the unfriendly moves. They lost over $200 million in handle that they'll never get back.

I'm simply using CA as an example of the TRACKS attempting to make a short-term sacrifice for a long-term gain, and I'm blaming the TOC for blocking those attempts. Which is a direct response to you saying that horsemen have no power, and suggesting that the tracks should make a sacrifice. The tracks have made efforts and sacrifices, the horsemen have not. It's just an excellent example of horsemen screwing it up for the rest of us, and in the long run, costing themselves money.

As for the business 101 comment, it was related to your buying methods, not Hong Kong. But, it is a very standard business move, to look at an industry that's thriving, and to attempt to copy/borrow whatever they're doing to be so successful.

Sustainability is a great example. It started in the paper industry, where they would plant trees to replace the ones they were cutting down. This turned out to be a great marketing tool, and now pretty much every industry out there has a sustainable something or other as part of their brand messaging. Cars, restaurants, computers, retail, fashion, etc. Just because two industries aren't exactly the same does't mean they can't learn from eachother.

Good post 125,

I think the racing industry makes it a lot harder than it needs to be. Take Las Vegas for example. You go into a high end casino and see really fancy chandeliers and if you can put 2 and 2 together, you can assume that those fancy items were paid for by gamblers.

Yet, the racing industry won't "copy" the model that Las Vegas has set up. They continue to charge 4 dollars for parking and 8 dollars admission even though they realize that Vegas charges 0 dollars to park and 0 dollars admission. Its little things like that, its so simple, yet the horse racing industry seems to make it so darn complex.

You would think they are sending a man to Mars.

cj
07-12-2013, 03:51 PM
OMG! Hollywood Park just pushed the first post back 3 minutes because they were due to go off at the same time as Belmont. There is hope!

Cannon shell
07-12-2013, 03:52 PM
Not sure what part of my post made it sound like I was lauding CA for their horseplayer friendly moves. CA made one horseplayer friendly move, in an effort to dig itself out of a hole created by making several very horseplayer unfriendly moves. They're still at a huge net loss based on the unfriendly moves. They lost over $200 million in handle that they'll never get back.

I'm simply using CA as an example of the TRACKS attempting to make a short-term sacrifice for a long-term gain, and I'm blaming the TOC for blocking those attempts. Which is a direct response to you saying that horsemen have no power, and suggesting that the tracks should make a sacrifice. The tracks have made efforts and sacrifices, the horsemen have not. It's just an excellent example of horsemen screwing it up for the rest of us, and in the long run, costing themselves money.

As for the business 101 comment, it was related to your buying methods, not Hong Kong. But, it is a very standard business move, to look at an industry that's thriving, and to attempt to copy/borrow whatever they're doing to be so successful.

Sustainability is a great example. It started in the paper industry, where they would plant trees to replace the ones they were cutting down. This turned out to be a great marketing tool, and now pretty much every industry out there has a sustainable something or other as part of their brand messaging. Cars, restaurants, computers, retail, fashion, etc. Just because two industries aren't exactly the same does't mean they can't learn from eachother.
You are using one example of the TOC asking for a takeout increase as the basis of your tracks sacrifice, horsemen are bastards argument? I didn't pay much attention to the entire CA situation but as far as I know the ONLY things horsemen have power over is the simulcast signal.

I'm not sure why people on the internet think they have any idea about my "buying methods" or my business IQ but let's just say that using the Hong Kong market to compare with American racing is not applicable. The vastness of their resources, the fact that their target market is more or less held hostage and the fact that they hold 2 cards a week, 9 months a year make a comparison to US racing pretty weak. Are there things that can be taken from them? Sure the "form steward" would be a nice start but to compare the figures and say that we can do it like them is just not so.

Cannon shell
07-12-2013, 03:53 PM
OMG! Hollywood Park just pushed the first post back 3 minutes because they were due to go off at the same time as Belmont. There is hope!
Yeah the track thats closing finally gets it...

TravisVOX
07-12-2013, 04:00 PM
OMG! Hollywood Park just pushed the first post back 3 minutes because they were due to go off at the same time as Belmont. There is hope!

When were they supposed to go off? I have them as 0 MTP and Belmont 1 MTP on the tote feed...

Charli125
07-12-2013, 04:01 PM
You are using one example of the TOC asking for a takeout increase as the basis of your tracks sacrifice, horsemen are bastards argument? I didn't pay much attention to the entire CA situation but as far as I know the ONLY things horsemen have power over is the simulcast signal.
Maybe you should pay attention to it before making comments that horsemen have no control.

I'm not sure why people on the internet think they have any idea about my "buying methods" or my business IQ but let's just say that using the Hong Kong market to compare with American racing is not applicable. The vastness of their resources, the fact that their target market is more or less held hostage and the fact that they hold 2 cards a week, 9 months a year make a comparison to US racing pretty weak. Are there things that can be taken from them? Sure the "form steward" would be a nice start but to compare the figures and say that we can do it like them is just not so.

Again, the business IQ comment was not about Hong Kong. Stop twisting my words. It was about your insane suggestion that horseplayers(aka customers) should contribute more than what we already contribute(purses).

If you can't see that there could be something to be learned from Hong Kong though, then just carry on as-is. I'm sure things will get better eventually if everything stays the same, and I'm sure our industry has nothing in common with any other industry.

Cannon shell
07-12-2013, 04:01 PM
Good post 125,

I think the racing industry makes it a lot harder than it needs to be. Take Las Vegas for example. You go into a high end casino and see really fancy chandeliers and if you can put 2 and 2 together, you can assume that those fancy items were paid for by gamblers.

Yet, the racing industry won't "copy" the model that Las Vegas has set up. They continue to charge 4 dollars for parking and 8 dollars admission even though they realize that Vegas charges 0 dollars to park and 0 dollars admission. Its little things like that, its so simple, yet the horse racing industry seems to make it so darn complex.

You would think they are sending a man to Mars.
It isn't as easy as you try to make it out.

NYRA for example was told by the state that it had to charge admission so that the state got its cut. Whenever a horsemans admission pass was given out the track had to reimburse the state for lost taxes.

That doesn't mean that I dont agree that parking and admission shouldn't be free with premium parking or clubhouse admittance a few bucks. But remember that the track keeps this money and doesnt have to share it with the horsemen.

At a casino track in the mid atlantic area a racing official saw that there were a large number of asian people (chinese mostly) at the casino/grandstand area because of the types of gaming offered there was the type they liked. He suggested to the track to print up some programs (track self printed) using chinese language software that they had. Track had no interest though it would have cost them next to nothing. They'd rather they bet through the tables where they didnt have to give a cut to the horsemen.

Stillriledup
07-12-2013, 04:09 PM
OMG! Hollywood Park just pushed the first post back 3 minutes because they were due to go off at the same time as Belmont. There is hope!

It does seem like they delayed the race so they wouldnt go head to head with Belmont. Hopefully this was done by design and someone at Hollywood is actually paying attention. Great stuff by them if true.

Cannon shell
07-12-2013, 04:12 PM
Maybe you should pay attention to it before making comments that horsemen have no control.



Again, the business IQ comment was not about Hong Kong. Stop twisting my words. It was about your insane suggestion that horseplayers(aka customers) should contribute more than what we already contribute(purses).

If you can't see that there could be something to be learned from Hong Kong though, then just carry on as-is. I'm sure things will get better eventually if everything stays the same, and I'm sure our industry has nothing in common with any other industry.
Maybe you should read what I said which was horsemen have the least clout among the tracks and state which is true. You seem to just want to fight which is fine.

You didn't like the rebate comment? I'm sure you'll get over it.

If you can't see that hong Kong is as different a situation as exists in racing than carry on believing bullshit.

Funny that it's "our" industry but you take offense when a tongue in cheek comment is made about contributing rebate money. I guess it is just ok to dictate to others how they spend their money?

TravisVOX
07-12-2013, 04:24 PM
If you fast forward "x" number of years, which "aspect" of the horse racing industry has the best chance of surviving? Tracks, horsemen (and related businesses) or bettors?

The reality is this... there will always be gambling. If horse racing isn't an option, gamblers will find something else. This lesson has already been learned. When casinos, lotteries and such started popping-up, the dollars shifted away from racing.

In many states, it's only a matter of time before governments come along and say, "Hey, you know that $x million we're giving to horse racing, imagine if we spent it on this, that or the other." At which point the laws are adjusted, the racing shuts down and everyone (but horse racing) is happy.

Finally, you have the horsemen. Without a racetrack to race horses, what is the point of breeding, raising, training or owning?

I fully understand and appreciate the role each and every one of these aspects play in the business. I see and hear about it everyday at work. To think that the racetracks "don't care" is silly. I know of zero racetrack executives who don't care. I know of zero horsemen who truly want to see their livelihood die off. I know of zero horse racing gamblers who want to see the sport dissolve.

Obviously something isn't quite right in the formula, and while people claim to have the answers by writing op-ed pieces or letters to the editor, the real answer probably lies when these groups mentioned above take a serious look at themselves and admit where the business breaks down.

cj
07-12-2013, 04:27 PM
It does seem like they delayed the race so they wouldnt go head to head with Belmont. Hopefully this was done by design and someone at Hollywood is actually paying attention. Great stuff by them if true.

It was by design. You think I was just making it up?

Charli125
07-12-2013, 04:34 PM
Maybe you should read what I said which was horsemen have the least clout among the tracks and state which is true. You seem to just want to fight which is fine.
I did read it, and it's wrong. In most places, horsemen have the MOST clout. See the several real world examples I gave you. I don't want to fight, I want you to listen to reason. I give up though, good luck to you and your current approach.

You didn't like the rebate comment? I'm sure you'll get over it.
Nope, I didn't like it and I won't get over it, I'll continue to address it until someone finally understands. It was a stupid comment which is unfortunately indicative of how a lot of horsemen feel(not all thankfully). Horseplayers fund purses(with the exception of slots subsidies which are short-term), if you raise the prices on horseplayers, your revenue will go down. See every track that has raised takeout and every study done for proof of that fact. If you think that's a good idea, do what CA did and raise takeout, or take rebates, or do whatever else you can to move money from players to somewhere else. Hell, why not raise takeout to %50 while you're at it; the customers will certainly support that.

If you can't see that hong Kong is as different a situation as exists in racing than carry on believing bullshit.
If you can't see any commonalities between the two then carry on with the status quo. The head in the sand approach is working great.

Funny that it's "our" industry but you take offense when a tongue in cheek comment is made about contributing rebate money. I guess it is just ok to dictate to others how they spend their money?
It is "our" industry, whether you like to admit it or not. Without horseplayers you have no purses and no job. Without horsemen we have no horses to bet on and no job/past-time. As much as it pains horsemen to realize this, we're in this together.

I'm not dictating how you spend your money. I'm suggesting that you might want to look at how you spend rather than making decisions which will lower your revenue. Apparently you're opposed to hearing ideas, but I figured I'd throw out a few that from a business perspective make sense. Don't like them, don't follow them, but I certainly feel qualified to make business related suggestions due to my career.

Cannon shell
07-12-2013, 04:57 PM
I did read it, and it's wrong. In most places, horsemen have the MOST clout. See the several real world examples I gave you. I don't want to fight, I want you to listen to reason. I give up though, good luck to you and your current approach.


Nope, I didn't like it and I won't get over it, I'll continue to address it until someone finally understands. It was a stupid comment which is unfortunately indicative of how a lot of horsemen feel(not all thankfully). Horseplayers fund purses(with the exception of slots subsidies which are short-term), if you raise the prices on horseplayers, your revenue will go down. See every track that has raised takeout and every study done for proof of that fact. If you think that's a good idea, do what CA did and raise takeout, or take rebates, or do whatever else you can to move money from players to somewhere else. Hell, why not raise takeout to %50 while you're at it; the customers will certainly support that.


If you can't see any commonalities between the two then carry on with the status quo. The head in the sand approach is working great.


It is "our" industry, whether you like to admit it or not. Without horseplayers you have no purses and no job. Without horsemen we have no horses to bet on and no job/past-time. As much as it pains horsemen to realize this, we're in this together.

I'm not dictating how you spend your money. I'm suggesting that you might want to look at how you spend rather than making decisions which will lower your revenue. Apparently you're opposed to hearing ideas, but I figured I'd throw out a few that from a business perspective make sense. Don't like them, don't follow them, but I certainly feel qualified to make business related suggestions due to my career.

Yeah horsemen have a lot of clout in place like Calder and Arlington Park and Indiana Downs and Parx and Delaware Park. You want real world? Try being a trainer stabled at Hollywood Park or Calder.

You seem offended that I suggested that you contribute your rebates to a marketing fund. That seems to suggest that you are either hyper-sensitive, humorless or feel that your vast contributions to the game are more than enough of course decided by yourself. That you'd be offended by a suggestion that you contribute to the game that you seem to take a share of ownership in seems odd. Aren't we all in this together?

As I have stated a million times I support reduced takeout and increased player incentives but I don't support your attitude that I am somehow screwing you simply because I am a horseman. I train for a couple of guys who are major players and thankfully they get to see both sides of the street.

How do you compare Hong Kong which is basically an extremely weathly two track circuit in a city of 7 million people that dont have a whole lot of other gambling options and US racing which doesnt just consist of Saratoga and Del mar but Thistledowns, Suffolk and Emerald Downs? When I pointed out the Form steward as an example of a good idea from HK that could be adopted here I guess you missed that? Please enlighten me as to what ideas from HK should/could be applied to US racing?

As much as it pains bettors they should realize the vast majority of horsemen dont think negatively of you. Truth is most horseman hate Mullins more than you do.

Please tell me what the hell you are talking about in terms of buying decisions?

wiffleball whizz
07-12-2013, 05:21 PM
Cj did you have any idea your dream would get to 200 post +......you gave quite the gathering!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Stillriledup
07-12-2013, 05:25 PM
Cj did you have any idea your dream would get to 200 post +......you gave quite the gathering!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm jealous, im working on 200 responses on my Zimmerman post and my "trainer" post, but i still have a lot of work to catch the CJ-Man and his famous MLK "i have a dream" thread! :D

Edit: Im sorry, the Zim thread has almost 400 responses and you have to imagine it will hit 500 in a day or so.

cj
07-12-2013, 05:29 PM
I'm jealous, im working on 200 responses on my Zimmerman post and my "trainer" post, but i still have a lot of work to catch the CJ-Man and his famous MLK "i have a dream" thread! :D

Edit: Im sorry, the Zim thread has almost 400 responses and you have to imagine it will hit 500 in a day or so.

Off topics need to stay there. Keep that stuff out of the racing section.

wiffleball whizz
07-12-2013, 05:36 PM
Does anybody remember when magna had that magna pick 5? Question is when all those tracks we're going off did the powers that be stagger them so nobody was racing at same time?

Jeff P
07-12-2013, 05:48 PM
You are using one example of the TOC asking for a takeout increase as the basis of your tracks sacrifice, horsemen are bastards argument? I didn't pay much attention to the entire CA situation but as far as I know the ONLY things horsemen have power over is the simulcast signal...Cannon shell, You seem like a good guy. (I'm guessing your posts in this thread might be coming from a place of not being aware what leadership at some of the more prominent horsemen alphabet groups have been up to.)

When it comes to the actions of horsemen I can only speak from personal experience while advocating for players as HANA's President.

California
The TOC (Thoroughbred Owners of California) has enough influence in CA that they lobbied the Speaker of the State Assembly (John Perez) to write a bill for them (SB 1072) and lobbied the Governor's Office to sign it. The idea that horsemen have no influence (at least in CA) is ludicrous.

This is the bill that wrote 22.68% exacta takeout into CA state law.

When handle plummeted as a result of the takeout increase, as HANA's President, I was invited (along with other CA horseplayers) to a series of meetings where the topic was "Let's Talk (because handle is trending the wrong way and we need to do something about it.")

There were a lot of player suggestions floated to track management and the TOC at those meetings. Sadly, the only suggestion the TOC approved was a 14% takeout pick5.

Fast forward several months. The pick5 turned out to be a success for Hollywood Park. Handle for the races in the pick5 sequence was growing. (Not just pick5 handle but handle for the other pools in those pick5 races.) Conversely, handle for races outside the pick5 sequence remained stagnant.

Based on that, track management invited us back to table because they wanted to do more starting with opening day at Del Mar. I attended a meeting at Del Mar where all parties attending... track management for Magna, Lou Raffetto the then President of the TOC, and horseplayers from HANA reached a handshake agreement to roll back the 2 horse bets part of the takeout increase from SB 1072. That agreement was of course subject to approval by the Boards of the various groups in attendance. Greg Avioli, then the head of racing operations for Magna (Santa Anita and Golden Gate) would have to get Frank to sign off on it. Jack Liebau, the head of Hollywood Park, would have to get his Board to sign off on it. Joe Harper would have to get the Board for Del Mar to sign off on it. Lou Rafetto would have to get the TOC Board to sign off on it. And I would have to report what went on in the meeting to the HANA Board so they could sigjn off on it (which they happily did.)

Care to guess which of those Boards shot down the proposal?

It certainly wasn't track management. Joe Harper did an on camera interview shortly after the meeting where he said he was for lowering the takeout. Jack Liebau put it in writing in the form of a letter - a formal request to the TOC Board for lowered takeout on 2 horse bets.

It was the TOC (horsemen) who shot the idea down. To this day they refuse to even talk about lowering the takeout on 2 horse bets. And yes, when you look at the takeout for 2 horse bets at major tracks, 22.68% is out of line:

18.50% AQU-BEL-SAR
19.00% CDX-KEE
19.00% MTH
20.00% GPX
20.50% APX
20.50% WOX
22.68% DMR-HOL-SAX-GGX

By the way, players DO already pay (via a percentage of the takeout removed from the parimutuel pools) for the budgets of the TOC, CHRB, and the CA Marketing Committee.


Calder
HANA reached out to Calder GM John Marshall in early 2011 and we had a great exchange of ideas. I think he (Marshall) got the economics of how high takeout was hurting his track's bottom line almost immediately. Believe it or not he took a risk and pitched higher ups at CDI (Calder's parent company) with the idea of trying across the board reduced takeout at Calder for their 2011 meet. (Looking back now, I'm thinking one of the selling points had to be the success of the 14% takeout pick5 in California. The other selling point may have been some of the success realized by Tampa Bay Downs with reduced takeouts on their serial race bets.) Much to my amazement, the higher ups at CDI gave Calder the go ahead to try a reduced takeout wagering menu for their 2011 meet.

Care to guess what happened next?

The Florida HORSEMEN shot the idea down. (But based on the success of the 14% takeout pick5 in CA they did agree to let Calder implement a low takeout pick5 of their own.)

Fast forward to this year. If I'm not mistaken it was the Florida horsemen who voted to have the Calder signal blacked out from simulcast and ADW lineups.



Mountaineer
For some reason (God help me) I LIKE playing this track.

But one of my pet peeves about MNR has always been their post parades which are conducted in such a way (at least the part of the post parade shown on camera) that the runners are always blocked by outrider ponies or the track ambulance. I've posted at length here on the pages of Paceadvantage specific ways that tracks can do a better job of showing the horses on camera during post parades. Mark Patterson, who I think does a VERY good job for Mountaineer as an on camera pre race analyst read one of my posts - and realized that one of the needs and wants of customers who bet is an unobstructed view of the horses during post parades. Mark took it upon himself to present the idea of improving the quality of post parades to Mountaineer track management who in turn agreed that parading the horses in such a way that the customer be given an unobstructed view was a no brainer.

Care to guess what happened next?

HORSEMEN at Mountaineer shot the idea down. (And no, I'm not making this up.)

Those are just three examples. I could write more but this post is already long enough.

Speaking strictly from personal experience while advocating for players through HANA, most of the time (not all) when an idea with potential to improve the bottom line has been presented to a racing jurisdiction: Track management has been receptive whereas leadership at the alphabet group representing the horsemen has (more often than not) been responsible for getting the idea shot down.



-jp

.

Stillriledup
07-12-2013, 05:48 PM
Off topics need to stay there. Keep that stuff out of the racing section.

Sorry Bossman, my bad, it won't happen again.

cj
07-12-2013, 06:04 PM
Does anybody remember when magna had that magna pick 5? Question is when all those tracks we're going off did the powers that be stagger them so nobody was racing at same time?

Of course, same owner, though I seem to remember a few snags.

cj
07-12-2013, 06:04 PM
Sorry Bossman, my bad, it won't happen again.

No worries, I like you...this week.

Charli125
07-12-2013, 06:05 PM
That you'd be offended by a suggestion that you contribute to the game that you seem to take a share of ownership in seems odd. Aren't we all in this together?

You don't get it and I'm done explaining it to you. Best of luck to you.

Stillriledup
07-12-2013, 06:10 PM
No worries, I like you...this week.

Geez, i must be slippin. ;)

Zydeco
07-12-2013, 08:56 PM
OMG! Hollywood Park just pushed the first post back 3 minutes because they were due to go off at the same time as Belmont. There is hope!

Tell me you were dreaming!!

Cannon shell
07-13-2013, 12:19 AM
Cannon shell, You seem like a good guy. (I'm guessing your posts in this thread might be coming from a place of not being aware what leadership at some of the more prominent horsemen alphabet groups have been up to.)

When it comes to the actions of horsemen I can only speak from personal experience while advocating for players as HANA's President.

California
The TOC (Thoroughbred Owners of California) has enough influence in CA that they lobbied the Speaker of the State Assembly (John Perez) to write a bill for them (SB 1072) and lobbied the Governor's Office to sign it. The idea that horsemen have no influence (at least in CA) is ludicrous.

This is the bill that wrote 22.68% exacta takeout into CA state law.

When handle plummeted as a result of the takeout increase, as HANA's President, I was invited (along with other CA horseplayers) to a series of meetings where the topic was "Let's Talk (because handle is trending the wrong way and we need to do something about it.")

There were a lot of player suggestions floated to track management and the TOC at those meetings. Sadly, the only suggestion the TOC approved was a 14% takeout pick5.

Fast forward several months. The pick5 turned out to be a success for Hollywood Park. Handle for the races in the pick5 sequence was growing. (Not just pick5 handle but handle for the other pools in those pick5 races.) Conversely, handle for races outside the pick5 sequence remained stagnant.

Based on that, track management invited us back to table because they wanted to do more starting with opening day at Del Mar. I attended a meeting at Del Mar where all parties attending... track management for Magna, Lou Raffetto the then President of the TOC, and horseplayers from HANA reached a handshake agreement to roll back the 2 horse bets part of the takeout increase from SB 1072. That agreement was of course subject to approval by the Boards of the various groups in attendance. Greg Avioli, then the head of racing operations for Magna (Santa Anita and Golden Gate) would have to get Frank to sign off on it. Jack Liebau, the head of Hollywood Park, would have to get his Board to sign off on it. Joe Harper would have to get the Board for Del Mar to sign off on it. Lou Rafetto would have to get the TOC Board to sign off on it. And I would have to report what went on in the meeting to the HANA Board so they could sigjn off on it (which they happily did.)

Care to guess which of those Boards shot down the proposal?

It certainly wasn't track management. Joe Harper did an on camera interview shortly after the meeting where he said he was for lowering the takeout. Jack Liebau put it in writing in the form of a letter - a formal request to the TOC Board for lowered takeout on 2 horse bets.

It was the TOC (horsemen) who shot the idea down. To this day they refuse to even talk about lowering the takeout on 2 horse bets. And yes, when you look at the takeout for 2 horse bets at major tracks, 22.68% is out of line:

18.50% AQU-BEL-SAR
19.00% CDX-KEE
19.00% MTH
20.00% GPX
20.50% APX
20.50% WOX
22.68% DMR-HOL-SAX-GGX

By the way, players DO already pay (via a percentage of the takeout removed from the parimutuel pools) for the budgets of the TOC, CHRB, and the CA Marketing Committee.


Calder
HANA reached out to Calder GM John Marshall in early 2011 and we had a great exchange of ideas. I think he (Marshall) got the economics of how high takeout was hurting his track's bottom line almost immediately. Believe it or not he took a risk and pitched higher ups at CDI (Calder's parent company) with the idea of trying across the board reduced takeout at Calder for their 2011 meet. (Looking back now, I'm thinking one of the selling points had to be the success of the 14% takeout pick5 in California. The other selling point may have been some of the success realized by Tampa Bay Downs with reduced takeouts on their serial race bets.) Much to my amazement, the higher ups at CDI gave Calder the go ahead to try a reduced takeout wagering menu for their 2011 meet.

Care to guess what happened next?

The Florida HORSEMEN shot the idea down. (But based on the success of the 14% takeout pick5 in CA they did agree to let Calder implement a low takeout pick5 of their own.)

Fast forward to this year. If I'm not mistaken it was the Florida horsemen who voted to have the Calder signal blacked out from simulcast and ADW lineups.



Mountaineer
For some reason (God help me) I LIKE playing this track.

But one of my pet peeves about MNR has always been their post parades which are conducted in such a way (at least the part of the post parade shown on camera) that the runners are always blocked by outrider ponies or the track ambulance. I've posted at length here on the pages of Paceadvantage specific ways that tracks can do a better job of showing the horses on camera during post parades. Mark Patterson, who I think does a VERY good job for Mountaineer as an on camera pre race analyst read one of my posts - and realized that one of the needs and wants of customers who bet is an unobstructed view of the horses during post parades. Mark took it upon himself to present the idea of improving the quality of post parades to Mountaineer track management who in turn agreed that parading the horses in such a way that the customer be given an unobstructed view was a no brainer.

Care to guess what happened next?

HORSEMEN at Mountaineer shot the idea down. (And no, I'm not making this up.)

Those are just three examples. I could write more but this post is already long enough.

Speaking strictly from personal experience while advocating for players through HANA, most of the time (not all) when an idea with potential to improve the bottom line has been presented to a racing jurisdiction: Track management has been receptive whereas leadership at the alphabet group representing the horsemen has (more often than not) been responsible for getting the idea shot down.



-jp

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Jeff I appreciate the time you spent on this post but at two of the tracks that you gave examples of there have been egregious moves made by management against horsemen almost every year.

The CA issue notwithstanding because I know its been a mess but Calder and MNR are places where management has been outright hostile towards horsemen.

The track and backside conditions at MNR are abysmal and despite years of "promises"and lies by management there most of the "improvements" still haven't been made. What you guys forget is that the purse/takeout negotiations are just one small portion of horseman/track management relations and the fact is that the vast majority of horsemen/trainers have no voice or many times aren't even informed about the negotiations until they are over. Tracks have repeatedly cut track maintenance budgets leading to deteriorating racetrack conditions and at some tracks led to losing a day of training, decreased backside maintenance at some tracks you wind up fixing things yourself because the skeleton crew just doesn't have time to do everything especially as barns and buildings age, started charging us for things previously free like ice and programs (nickle and dime stuff done to annoy not because there is any significant expense), charged stall rent, charged rent for despicable, mostly unkept rooms for the grooms and hotwalkers, charged us for removal of straw when they had a contract selling the manure to outside companies effectively double dipping, not allowed us to bed on certain types of material that was far cheaper than straw out of spite over contract negoiations that weren't going their way, purse underpayments, CDI basically tried to steal money that was contractually horsemans after the Yum sponsorship deal was done, not paying for 2 years after until the HBPA was forced to sue them. Tracks have broken contracts so many times it isnt even funny. An eastern track quietly without telling anyone cancelled a stakes race a few years ago despite having to have horsemans permission to change the terms of the contract they had with them regarding the allotment of purse money. Tracks have withheld stalls from horsemen that they deem as "troublemakers" even when they are acting within their roles as horsemans representatives simply because they dont rubber stamp the tracks agenda. Tracks have used horsemans funds as operating capital. Tracks have conspired to cut horsemans % of the cut of off track handle at the same time using the vast majority of their marketing budgets to promote off track handle.

You can give a lot of examples of horsemen cutting signals or refusing to do takeout deals with tracks but unless you know what other poison pills they were being asked to swallow at the time of these actions you are painting a picture that is incomplete. This isn't to say that every track engages in these types of tactics but many do. I didn't even go into the preposterous actions of Calder recently in dictating to horsemen were they could ship and even going as far as telling them they couldn't split their stables between Calder and other tracks which is just a slap in the face. While tracks wanting to play the overbearing landlord has happened for a long time this was the first time I ever heard of them going to the lengths of telling you what you could or couldn't do outside of their property. They took these actions because they feel secure in believing that even if racing ceases at their track because of the gaming contract they have with the HBPA that is valid through 2019 the real money makers wont be shut off. There is a theme here that horsemen shouldnt have veto power over signals but you can bet your ass that if they had veto power over the ability to shutdown the slots and table games if racing stopped you'd better believe that the hard ass line Calder took would have been considerably softer.

Too many people assume that horseman don't realize that the trends are not great, that the stands (and stalls) are empty and that the slots probably won't be here forever. However the tracks and states aren't exactly doing their part despite your assertions here. In far too many places the tracks have marginalized racing and as they have done that the supposed power of the horsemen has waned. In far too many places the majority of horsemen are struggling as tracks turn a blind eye to their racing programs and allow juice trainers to trample over the rest of us. In far too many places people are pushing for cuts in racedays which are effectively a paycut as the number of opportunities declines and more horses get to race fewer times. Perhaps this trend will eventually help (though I have my doubts) in the short term which is where the vast majority of horsemen live, the lack of opportunities hurts.

Tracks do bizarre things that many don't see. Penn National for instance is going to go 2 months in between offering MSW race for fillies going long on the turf. I happen to have a filly that is at Penn that has been waiting for this race. Now if I ship out of town the track gets get pissed. If I don't ship out of town my owners get pissed. I probably won't get in out of town anyway because my papers and date is at Penn so it would take a minor miracle. This isnt something you are gonna read in the form but it IS an issue, not getting an opportunity to run in a grass maiden in summer at a track that hasnt exactly been carding all 10 horse fields. When asked about it they just dont seem to care.

proximity
07-13-2013, 12:59 AM
they've always babied that course for some reason. don't know what they're saving it for.

on the bright side what was once an 11-12k race should be in the upper 30s while the railbirds are still getting that 0.3%.

good luck with the horse.

wiffleball whizz
07-13-2013, 01:04 AM
they've always babied that course for some reason. don't know what they're saving it for.

on the bright side what was once an 11-12k race should be in the upper 30s while the railbirds are still getting that 0.3%.

good luck with the horse.

That's 100 percent correct.....0.3%!!!!!

Stillriledup
07-13-2013, 02:31 AM
Great post CS (#206)

These tracks with slots rule with an iron fist and have all these "rules" about when and where you can ship, what has to happen to get a new horse on the grounds from a different state and so on and so forth. I dont think horsemen and owners will forget this treatment when this slot money goes away, those tracks will be struggling and begging for entries, owners won't forget the 'hardball' that some of these places play.

wiffleball whizz
07-13-2013, 02:52 AM
Talked to a guy who works at Naples dog track in Florida he told me a few interesting things and I respectfully disagreed with one of the things he said...I bring this up here because it has to do with pari mutual wagering in Florida that can easily happen to horses like the bow wows....


Guy was telling me last night that Naples dogs was getting so bad with Pools so small that they were thinking of just racing the dogs as match races because the pools didn't warrent all the different Pool....

Here's where I disagreed:...he said they were gonna race heads up dog races just to keep open the poker room.....I said tha can't be the case because poker isn't making tha much money after u pay all the staff....


Now if this is happening at dogs what's gonna happen a the horse tracks....your telling me Hialeah poker room is gonna be a gold mine with those piss pools in the QH racing?..........

I think most of the tracks have casinos with some class 3 slots but there getting buried by the hard rock casinos.....

I think these Florida tracks and mountaineer are in a world of hurt....casinos take are very small. Mountaineer poker room 1 game Charlestown 33.....racinos are losing there luster

proximity
07-13-2013, 02:28 PM
Great post CS (#206)

These tracks with slots rule with an iron fist and have all these "rules" about when and where you can ship, what has to happen to get a new horse on the grounds from a different state and so on and so forth. I dont think horsemen and owners will forget this treatment when this slot money goes away, those tracks will be struggling and begging for entries, owners won't forget the 'hardball' that some of these places play.

uhh?? when the slots money goes away there won't be any horsemen. the tracks won't be struggling and begging for entries, they will just be operating the casino!!

Stillriledup
07-13-2013, 02:33 PM
uhh?? when the slots money goes away there won't be any horsemen. the tracks won't be struggling and begging for entries, they will just be operating the casino!!

Certainly possible, some tracks will go under....not all of them however. Some will still be in operation with very small purses.

proximity
07-13-2013, 02:36 PM
. Mountaineer poker room 1 game Charlestown 33.....racinos are losing there luster

you guys will really hurt Charles town and eventually horseshoe Baltimore will too, but ct will still have some games. soon enough though only the new room downstairs will be necessary. i'd like to see them get rid of the grandstand and make a nice clubhouse area upstairs with some nice tables like penn national and lots of tvs. probably never happen though.

proximity
07-13-2013, 02:41 PM
Certainly possible, some tracks will go under....not all of them however. Some will still be in operation with very small purses.

maybe penn national will hang on with something since the track is afterall, their flagship property? for awhile though ct was completely shut down.

Stillriledup
07-13-2013, 02:49 PM
maybe penn national will hang on with something since the track is afterall, their flagship property? for awhile though ct was completely shut down.

Probably just a matter of time before every slots dime goes somewhere OTHER than purses. They should have given the slots money to the bettors in the form of carryovers, at least this way, they would have seen their money make money.

wiffleball whizz
07-13-2013, 03:08 PM
you guys will really hurt Charles town and eventually horseshoe Baltimore will too, but ct will still have some games. soon enough though only the new room downstairs will be necessary. i'd like to see them get rid of the grandstand and make a nice clubhouse area upstairs with some nice tables like penn national and lots of tvs. probably never happen though.

Ct will have games I'm just amazed my the gap between CT and MNR on a Friday night:...33 games at CT and 1 at the mountain.....that's terrible I'm sure the casino is the same....the night I was at ct every table was 25 and up...Mnr is in trouble ct is ok for now

Stillriledup
07-14-2013, 07:33 PM
Hastings, Emerald and Sacramento all running at exactly the same time, to the second. There's only a few track running now and these are 3 of the main ones, all on top of each other.

To the second.

thespaah
07-15-2013, 12:26 AM
Exactly - without slots, racing just can't cut it.
Why should slots have to carry the burden of an unprofitable business?
I say turn over more of the slot money to the states so maybe the taxpayers get a break. Screw the tracks. All of them. They are leeches. If they can't make it, close the doors.
In most states that would require new legislation as there are rules in place that require a extended pari-mutuel meeting in order to have slots/casino gaming.