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hattaynez
07-04-2013, 12:33 PM
Hi,

I'd like to ask the experts in this forum to recomend some good books about QH races.

thanks,

hattaynez

cj
07-04-2013, 12:57 PM
I haven't read this, but it was one of the few I could even find:

Fast Horses, Fast Money: The Complete Guide to Quarter Horse Racing (http://www.amazon.com/Fast-Horses-Money-Complete-Everything/dp/1438248571/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372953398&sr=1-1)

RaceBookJoe
07-04-2013, 02:09 PM
Charles Carroll's " Handicapping Speed " kind of goes into quarterhorse handicapping a bit.

Robert Goren
07-04-2013, 04:52 PM
Although the pools are small, QH racing is one of the last places where you can make your own Beyer's numbers and make money. It is a speed and jockey game. Figure out how many points a jockey change moves a horse up and down. We had a small QH track near where I lived in the early 1980s.

woodbinepmi
07-04-2013, 07:46 PM
Daily Racing Form publishes beyer figures in their p.p.'s for quarter horses now.

cj
07-04-2013, 07:57 PM
Daily Racing Form publishes beyer figures in their p.p.'s for quarter horses now.

They may publish figures, but they are not Beyer figures.

duncan04
07-05-2013, 12:05 AM
They may publish figures, but they are not Beyer figures.


They are the new equibase speed figure. You can find out more about it at the bottom of the page of this link


http://www.aqha.com/Racing/Content-Pages/Racing-and-Wagering/Q-Racing-Aces-and-Handicapping-Information.aspx

Tom
07-05-2013, 01:20 AM
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-49556.html

MPRanger
07-05-2013, 02:35 AM
Although the pools are small, QH racing is one of the last places where you can make your own Beyer's numbers and make money.


It is a speed and jockey game. Figure out how many points a jockey change moves a horse up and down. We had a small QH track near where I lived in the early 1980s.


I never figured out how to factor the jockey into a QH equation other than gate breaking technique. I'm sure the right confluence of rider and horse can be awesome. I'll never forget J.R. Ramirez and Oak Tree Special back when I played quarterhorses. I think Oak Tree Special went undefeated for a couple of years.

We used to emphasize the gate. Breaking from the gate. A better breaker can beat a faster sprinter in the shorter races. How many times have you seen quarter horses break from the gate in a particular pattern and hold that pattern to the finish? That's a race which was won at the gate. But I guarantee you even great grand mothers at Los Al know all about this.

I don't know about any books. I see people recommend Speed Handicapping but I wish someone would tell me where the good part is in that book because I can't find it. I can't read it. Something about the way it's written and me just don't jive.

I recommend to read anything and everything Ed Burgart has written. Several essays, don't know if he's written a book. There may not be much written about quarter horse races because there isn't much to quarter horse racing. It's one of those simple things best left simple. Not counting some of the longer races.

Robert Goren
07-05-2013, 11:13 AM
I never figured out how to factor the jockey into a QH equation other than gate breaking technique. I'm sure the right confluence of rider and horse can be awesome. I'll never forget J.R. Ramirez and Oak Tree Special back when I played quarterhorses. I think Oak Tree Special went undefeated for a couple of years.

I used to compare changes in speed figures when one jockey was switch to another. There usually one jockey that moves a QH quite a few speed rating points. It was often not the leading rider. If you are making your own speed rating anyway it is pretty easy to do. Unless a track is running QHs full time, you don't get enough data to make it work.

DeltaLover
07-05-2013, 12:02 PM
How big are the pools in QH racing?

ElKabong
07-05-2013, 02:03 PM
How big are the pools in QH racing?

Other thna Los Al, VERY small.

If QH races had bigger pools I wouldn't touch Tbreds. So many overlays, but if you bet $200 to win at Sam Houston, Retama, Evangeline, Delta, Ruidoso etc, you move the needle so far it takes almost all profit away over time

I had a lot of success at Los Al towards the end of 2011 playing pick 4's, but the fields have become very short (Zeta horses, que pasa?) too small to profit much off pick 4s @ Los Al

My advice, and this is coming from a guy that dismisses software programs for Tbred racing, is to find a very good s/w program for whatever circuit you play. QH racing is all about speed and quickness, that's right up a S/W pkg alley.

I won't give out the program I use, but try as many as you can and ask for a 30 day free trial. If they won't give you a trial, say adios to it. There are some (at least one) that does.

Just a Fan
07-05-2013, 02:58 PM
95% of my wagering is on QH's. I find that you can find much better value in places like Texas, Iowa, Louisiana, Remington, and Hialeah than at Los Al. At Los Al, its the same horses running in short fields over the same 2 distances in the same weather and track conditions race after race, and the public handicappers (Burgart, Wade, Onaka) there are outstanding, killing whatever prices you might have had. There are a lot more variables outside of California that make it more challenging. Pick a circuit, make detailed trip notes in Formulator (which is awesome) or some other tool, and you can win. You will be amazed how much the chartcallers miss. It doesn't take that long - I watch the replay and compile trip notes between races. I do my own speed figs too, I feel that it gives me an edge.

As a QH player I bought the book listed in post #2 a few years ago, just to get a players' perspective. It was a complete farce. The author used a lot of backwards logic to try to make a point. For example, he would say that only 8% of Los Al winners raced at another track in their last start - and his argument was why would you bet on a shipper. But obviously, most Los Al runners ran at Los Al in their last time. I could use his logic and surmise that less than 1% of winners have a name starting with "Z", so should I have thrown out Zenyatta when she ran? He also relied on ridiculously low sample sizes (25-50 races) to make broad assumptions based on extremely limited data. If you are going to sell a book for $39 (what I paid) I would expect you to give a little more effort than a 30 race sample to make your points.

The DRF stopped publishing Equibase speed figs for QHs (at least in the online PPs) sometime around Feb-March, I don't know why. Now they show only the antiquated speed index.

Pool sizes are respectable at RP, Louisiana tracks, and Texas tracks, especially when the race is beamed into California. I agree that $200 to win would be too much, but if your max win bet is no more than $100 or so, with proportional sized bets in EX/TRI/Supers, you will be OK. Don't bother with Horizontal bets, those pools are too small.

Check at the bottom of the page here for some handicapping articles that are well written, as well as info about the Q Racing Aces, which is a group that is trying to educate fans about QH racing.

http://www.aqha.com/Racing/Content-Pages/Racing-and-Wagering/Q-Racing-Aces-and-Handicapping-Information.aspx

Good luck.

ElKabong
07-06-2013, 01:49 AM
95% of my wagering is on QH's. I find that you can find much better value in places like Texas, Iowa, Louisiana, Remington, and Hialeah than at Los Al. At Los Al, its the same horses running in short fields over the same 2 distances in the same weather and track conditions race after race, and the public handicappers (Burgart, Wade, Onaka) there are outstanding, killing whatever prices you might have had. There are a lot more variables outside of California that make it more challenging. Pick a circuit, make detailed trip notes in Formulator (which is awesome) or some other tool, and you can win. You will be amazed how much the chartcallers miss. It doesn't take that long - I watch the replay and compile trip notes between races. I do my own speed figs too, I feel that it gives me an edge.

As a QH player I bought the book listed in post #2 a few years ago, just to get a players' perspective. It was a complete farce. The author used a lot of backwards logic to try to make a point. For example, he would say that only 8% of Los Al winners raced at another track in their last start - and his argument was why would you bet on a shipper. But obviously, most Los Al runners ran at Los Al in their last time. I could use his logic and surmise that less than 1% of winners have a name starting with "Z", so should I have thrown out Zenyatta when she ran? He also relied on ridiculously low sample sizes (25-50 races) to make broad assumptions based on extremely limited data. If you are going to sell a book for $39 (what I paid) I would expect you to give a little more effort than a 30 race sample to make your points.

The DRF stopped publishing Equibase speed figs for QHs (at least in the online PPs) sometime around Feb-March, I don't know why. Now they show only the antiquated speed index.

Pool sizes are respectable at RP, Louisiana tracks, and Texas tracks, especially when the race is beamed into California. I agree that $200 to win would be too much, but if your max win bet is no more than $100 or so, with proportional sized bets in EX/TRI/Supers, you will be OK. Don't bother with Horizontal bets, those pools are too small.

Check at the bottom of the page here for some handicapping articles that are well written, as well as info about the Q Racing Aces, which is a group that is trying to educate fans about QH racing.

http://www.aqha.com/Racing/Content-Pages/Racing-and-Wagering/Q-Racing-Aces-and-Handicapping-Information.aspx

Good luck.

Great post, I enjoyed reading it.

the TX, OK, La tracks do have overlays & seem to be ripe. But many times the entire mutuel pools won't exceed 5 or 6k.....That's just crazy low. If these win pools could at least get to 15-20k (which is very low compared to tbred pools), it would be a great game.

Agree on Los Al....I rarely, rarely bet to win there. They had a good run on p4's for awhile until the fields dwindled

plainolebill
07-07-2013, 02:40 AM
Great post, I enjoyed reading it.

the TX, OK, La tracks do have overlays & seem to be ripe. But many times the entire mutuel pools won't exceed 5 or 6k.....That's just crazy low. If these win pools could at least get to 15-20k (which is very low compared to tbred pools), it would be a great game.

Agree on Los Al....I rarely, rarely bet to win there. They had a good run on p4's for awhile until the fields dwindled

Me too, great post, I haven't played a quarter horse race since Portland Meadows in the early 70's but this got me interested. How many of these tracks are available on Twinspires?

traynor
07-07-2013, 12:31 PM
For those unfamiliar with quarterhorses, you may not have gotten all the value from Robert Goren's posts on this thread that those more familiar with the topic may have. Making projected ("Beyer-type") speed ratings and tracking jockey performance in relation to those speed ratigns can still give one a considerable advantage. Especially for changes in distance.

Many convert the raw times to fps or mph. When the distance is different, those ratings are not interchangeable. Develop an acceleration chart that is even roughly accurate (like a "parallel time chart" from the old days of Gordon Jones), and you will have something quite worthwhile. Keep track of the jockeys, and you may discover why more than a few head for Ruidoso for the big money races. Not quite free money, but close. Nice scenery, too.

ElKabong
07-09-2013, 01:24 AM
Me too, great post, I haven't played a quarter horse race since Portland Meadows in the early 70's but this got me interested. How many of these tracks are available on Twinspires?

All the TX, OKLA, and Los Al are on Twin Spires. I know Ruidoso, Sunland are and my guess is the other NM tracks are as well.

In all honesty the Q's are easier to beat (vs tbreds) as long as you stick to straight win bets. Even then, a $50 wager can tilt the board a bit. That's the only downer, as your bankroll grows you can't incrementally raise your standard bet

One bit of caution, NM tracks are tough to nail down accurate speed figs whether using a s/w program or home made. The winds there can be blowing 25mph one moment, the next moment it's still....have seen this here at LS very often in the Fall when the QH meet is running....But the owner / creator of the program I used said NM was much more pronounced with this issue, esp Sunland.

I've found La tracks to have the most overlays, but that's just me. Lone Star can have some prices too

Robert Goren
07-09-2013, 02:04 AM
Back to the original question. Nobody knows of a good book QH racing.