TimeformUS

[upthecreek]

Anyone familiar with the Timeformus website?

https://timeformus.com/

In beta test now,a couple of free races a day. Looks like some interesting stuff

[Tom]

Interesting site - thanks for the head up.
Will check it out this long weekend.

[Capper Al]

Yes it is interesting. Might they be getting ready for the Breeders' Cup market?

[classhandicapper]

The word is that the best is yet to come. ;)

[flatstats]

Timeform started about 70 years ago by Phil Bull.

It has always been the form book of choice for the racing connosieur but a few years ago it go bought out by Betfair.

That's not really a problem but the biggest impact of their ratings and analysis is that it is available to view by thousands of Betfair customers. It is also available to view, free, for every race by bookmakers such as Ladbrokes.

You have to think about that for a while. Bookmakers promoting a form / ratings service? What do you think is going to happen to the prices of the hyped up runners?

[horses4courses]

You have to think about that for a while. Bookmakers promoting a form / ratings service? What do you think is going to happen to the prices of the hyped up runners?

It brings about the best of situations for savvy race bettors.
Over bet, hyped-up, favorites are "green light" races for some.

[cj]

I'm a part of this, so obviously I'm biased, but I think you guys are going to love what you see if you give it a shot.

Here are a couple examples of the "Pace Projector" from the weekend, the Dwyer and the Queen's Plate:

[JustRalph]

I got some early access and think it's great!

[HandyKapper]

Looking forward to it. Thanks for the heads up. :)

[the little guy]

I'm a part of this, so obviously I'm biased, but I think you guys are going to love what you see if you give it a shot.

Here are a couple examples of the "Pace Projector" from the weekend, the Dwyer and the Queen's Plate:


Good to know that I'm not the only one that mistakenly thought even Junior Alvarado, who could rate Dr. Fager in a match race, couldn't have Abraham well off the Dwyer lead.

[Capper Al]

How would one use these differently than what we have with BRIS? BRIS does have a CR (class rating). Isn't this similar to timeform? The only advantage that i'm seeing at the moment is when shippers from outside North America show up here. I don't wager outside North America, so this won't be a benefit for me.

[MPRanger]

How would one use these differently than what we have with BRIS? BRIS does have a CR (class rating). Isn't this similar to timeform? The only advantage that i'm seeing at the moment is when shippers from outside North America show up here. I don't wager outside North America, so this won't be a benefit for me.



I hope they have great success. More options can only be good for racing. But in America on dirt tracks it's about speed. We already have the best figures for our races. But turf races ..... hmmm

I prefer separate pace and speed figures to a single conglomerated number. I would miss the interplay between projected race shapes for my contenders. I don't always use this measure but it is in my arsenal. Yes, I understand they will offer a separate pace figure in the future. But the main big one number idea seems like something to attract new inexperienced players. That would be a good thing.

At the end of the day, whosever figures you use or whatever calculation you make, it comes down to subsets of winners. Seems like methods for isolating subsets go hot and cold too. Works for a while then tapers off and something else starts working better. It's a fluid situation not best defined by a single number. But of course most people aren't thinking like that. It's all about living and die-ing with the current race, the one you bet the light bill on. :confused:

[PhantomOnTour]

CJ - are you working for/with Timeform US?

your post said you are "part of this"

[Capper Al]

Interesting comment about another all encompassing rating number. Here again BRIS has a good one in their Prime Number.

[GMB@BP]

Interesting comment about another all encompassing rating number. Here again BRIS has a good one in their Prime Number.

You should start a thread about Bris it appears!

[Capper Al]

You should start a thread about Bris it appears!

BRIS happens to be what I use and know. I'm sure there are other all encompassing ratings out there. The question is what does TimeForm-US offer or considers that these other systems don't? Like I said, there might be value for horses shipping in from outside North America. Otherwise, I'm not seeing their value.

[Grits]

You should start a thread about Bris it appears!

Excellent point.....

[Capper Al]

Excellent point.....

Small mind!

[Grits]

Small mind!

You're touting Bris, which, yes, many of us use in conjunction, in the past with Cj's Pace Figures. You haven't any real knowledge of TimeFormUS, yet you're able to form an opinion with one quick look. I'm not getting into a pissing match with you. But regaling Bris is not what the thread is about. Mind--less.

[MPRanger]

You're touting Bris, which, yes, many of us use in conjunction, in the past with Cj's Pace Figures. You haven't any real knowledge of TimeFormUS, yet you're able to form an opinion with one quick look. I'm not getting into a pissing match with you. But regaling Bris is not what the thread is about. Mind--less.


All he said was that he didn't need a new number for himself. I think he was positive about the idea of getting help with foreign shippers. I didn't see his post as being negative. Maybe y'all have butted heads before. :)

What are Cj's Pace Figures? A reference no doubt to the poster cj.

[Aner]

As with all new things there will be a steep learning curve. In trying to guess whether Timeform would be worth such effort, I scanned through their table listing results from playing the best Timeform spotlight figures on 9190 U.S. races (March 15 to June 11, 2013).

Unfortunately, while they show each horse that was bet, they only list the number of wins (29.5%) and in the money (63%) rates. If their numbers mostly pick favorites, it doesn't look good. Missing is the what the horses paid. Don't you think if they had a positive ROI for this test they would have highlighted it?

I'm a little skeptical. Is anyone using their numbers at this time?

[Robert Fischer]

All he said was that he didn't need a new number for himself. I think he was positive about the idea of getting help with foreign shippers. I didn't see his post as being negative.

I couldn't care any less, and I'll leave it up to you guys.

I don't feel like analyzing message board etiquette.
I've got races to analyze, a yard to cut and some errands to run.

There's a certain level of common sense that if a new idea is presented with some level of legitimacy, that you try to be constructive with your comments.

I figure we are all at different levels of skill and commitment and even preferences regarding which tools we use.

anyway... Timeform-US ? sounds like an idea that has some promise. :ThmbUp: cool.

[andicap]

If CJ vouches for it that's good enough for me. Nobody beats his figures.


:ThmbUp:

[cj]

CJ - are you working for/with Timeform US?

your post said you are "part of this"

Yes, I am the figure maker and had some input on the design. The color coding, for example, was a staple of my program.

[cj]

I prefer separate pace and speed figures to a single conglomerated number. I would miss the interplay between projected race shapes for my contenders. I don't always use this measure but it is in my arsenal. Yes, I understand they will offer a separate pace figure in the future. But the main big one number idea seems like something to attract new inexperienced players. That would be a good thing.



This will definitely be added and soon.

[iceknight]

Yes, I am the figure maker and had some input on the design. The color coding, for example, was a staple of my program.
I like the clarity of presentation in their basic pp (as of now they have 2 free races per day).

for someone who views a lot of PPs online, I like the easy-on-eyes presentation style (as opposed to drf/bris/equibase pdf pps). Of course data base users could easily modify this (and use color formatting inside excel) but I am not yet at that stage so I like this one mainly for the tablet viewing angle. I wrote this note before cj's post about color coding, but didnt post it yet.

drf formulator is also good (v good in fact) but price is the issue there for me.

[cj]

BRIS happens to be what I use and know. I'm sure there are other all encompassing ratings out there. The question is what does TimeForm-US offer or considers that these other systems don't? Like I said, there might be value for horses shipping in from outside North America. Otherwise, I'm not seeing their value.

Well, again I'm biased, but does BRIS offer anything like the Pace Projector I posted here? Also, you can't possibly judge if TUS numbers are as good or better until you try them. It is certainly an advantage that TUS numbers have human intervention, not sure anybody could argue that.

I would also say the PPs are just plain easier to read. They use the full chart comment instead of the brief comment. The color coding is a bonus. They are updated on the fly for scratches. And best yet, they won't be stagnant. The PPs will evolve to what players want in 2013, not live in 1993.

[cj]

As with all new things there will be a steep learning curve. In trying to guess whether Timeform would be worth such effort, I scanned through their table listing results from playing the best Timeform spotlight figures on 9190 U.S. races (March 15 to June 11, 2013).

Unfortunately, while they show each horse that was bet, they only list the number of wins (29.5%) and in the money (63%) rates. If their numbers mostly pick favorites, it doesn't look good. Missing is the what the horses paid. Don't you think if they had a positive ROI for this test they would have highlighted it?

I'm a little skeptical. Is anyone using their numbers at this time?

I'd give you the numbers if I had them. I would guess they don't have a + ROI over such a huge number of races, but I don't think it was tested yet. One of the goals of the numbers is to actually tell you which horses ran fastest, not which horses are the best value. Those are two very different things.

I could probably produce a figure that would be close to a break even ROI over a very large set of races, but would win less than 10% of the time. This is not what customers want in my opinion.

[Robert Fischer]

Well, again I'm biased, but does BRIS offer anything like the Pace Projector I posted here? Also, you can't possibly judge if TUS numbers are as good or better until you try them. It is certainly an advantage that TUS numbers have human intervention, not sure anybody could argue that.

I would also say the PPs are just plain easier to read. They use the full chart comment instead of the brief comment. The color coding is a bonus. They are updated on the fly for scratches. And best yet, they won't be stagnant. The PPs will evolve to what players want in 2013, not live in 1993.

I signed up for the free pps

Exceeded my expectations.

pretty cool. I liked the interface, and the Pace Projector looks interesting.

[PhantomOnTour]

Yes, I am the figure maker and had some input on the design. The color coding, for example, was a staple of my program.
Congrats CJ - sounds like a good gig :ThmbUp:

[Capper Al]

I'd give you the numbers if I had them. I would guess they don't have a + ROI over such a huge number of races, but I don't think it was tested yet. One of the goals of the numbers is to actually tell you which horses ran fastest, not which horses are the best value. Those are two very different things.

I could probably produce a figure that would be close to a break even ROI over a very large set of races, but would win less than 10% of the time. This is not what customers want in my opinion.

What is the added value of TUS? At least, what does it offer so I should decide to try it? That's all I'm asking. Need a reason to buy in and spend time doing the research.

[PhantomOnTour]

What is the added value of TUS? At least, what does it offer so I should decide to try it? That's all I'm asking. Need a reason to buy in and spend time doing the research.
Try it out with their free races and see if you like it.

[Capper Al]

All he said was that he didn't need a new number for himself. I think he was positive about the idea of getting help with foreign shippers. I didn't see his post as being negative. Maybe y'all have butted heads before. :)

What are Cj's Pace Figures? A reference no doubt to the poster cj.

You read me correctly. This is a new product. Give me a reason to want to even test it. Pretty graphs and pictures do nothing for me. There are a lot of all encompassing numbers, why should I bother? the shippers are the only reason that I can see at the moment.

[Capper Al]

You're touting Bris, which, yes, many of us use in conjunction, in the past with Cj's Pace Figures. You haven't any real knowledge of TimeFormUS, yet you're able to form an opinion with one quick look. I'm not getting into a pissing match with you. But regaling Bris is not what the thread is about. Mind--less.

Get off your righteous. The fact is that I don't have any real knowledge of TimeFormUS. That's why I am asking what does it have to offer. BRIS just happens to be what I know, a point of reference for further discussion.

[PhantomOnTour]

Instead of continually asking what it has to offer, why don't you go to their site and EDUCATE yourself about it...then you will have a better idea of whether or not you want to use it.

I am guessing that neither CJ nor anyone else with TUS is going to give you a personal tutorial and tour of the site.
You are a big boy - go see for yourself.

[Grits]

Get off your righteous. The fact is that I don't have any real knowledge of TimeFormUS. That's why I am asking what does it have to offer. BRIS just happens to be what I know, a point of reference for further discussion.

I simply brought to attention--the obvious. Now, you're carrying on and repeating yourself. Maybe do what Phantom suggested. If you like what you see, good. Stick around and learn more about the product. If its not for you, quietly let it go and move on. No loss for you or TUS. That's really all there is to it.

[Charli125]

Yes, I am the figure maker and had some input on the design. The color coding, for example, was a staple of my program.

I didn't know you were involved. Knowing that will cause me to take another look. I've been a beta tester since the beginning and was most excited about figures to compare foreign horses. Personally, I found it a bit unclear, and I shared those thoughts during testing.

I think the pace projector is very good and tends to be accurate, it's just that for me, it usually matches what I project, so it didn't save me time on my handicapping. For someone who's visual though, I could see it being a great asset.

The pp's are much more simplified and clear than others I've seen, and I'm a big fan of that. I use custom pp's that come out of jcapper, so I only supplement my handicapping process with regular pp's. I don't have need for a lot of the information, and these pp's showed me just the right amount.

It is still being improved, so I don't have any final verdict, but I definitely like it much better than other PP's out there in the market. Not sure if I find enough added value to add it to my arsenal, but if I was playing with bris or equibase pp's, I would switch in a heartbeat.

There are certainly some very smart, very good horseplayers involved, even more so now that I know CJ is involved. That's enough for me to keep an eye on the improvements and see how the finished product comes out.

[Capper Al]

I simply brought to attention--the obvious. Now, you're carrying on and repeating yourself. Maybe do what Phantom suggested. If you like what you see, good. Stick around and learn more about the product. If its not for you, quietly let it go and move on. No loss for you or TUS. That's really all there is to it.

What non-sense.

[Capper Al]

I didn't know you were involved. Knowing that will cause me to take another look. I've been a beta tester since the beginning and was most excited about figures to compare foreign horses. Personally, I found it a bit unclear, and I shared those thoughts during testing.

I think the pace projector is very good and tends to be accurate, it's just that for me, it usually matches what I project, so it didn't save me time on my handicapping. For someone who's visual though, I could see it being a great asset.

The pp's are much more simplified and clear than others I've seen, and I'm a big fan of that. I use custom pp's that come out of jcapper, so I only supplement my handicapping process with regular pp's. I don't have need for a lot of the information, and these pp's showed me just the right amount.

It is still being improved, so I don't have any final verdict, but I definitely like it much better than other PP's out there in the market. Not sure if I find enough added value to add it to my arsenal, but if I was playing with bris or equibase pp's, I would switch in a heartbeat.

There are certainly some very smart, very good horseplayers involved, even more so now that I know CJ is involved. That's enough for me to keep an eye on the improvements and see how the finished product comes out.

Thanks

[Robert Fischer]

:2:Snake Pit
:6:Thunder Quay
:5:Sailor's Revenge

You guys nailed the exacta
came in 2-6

I exacta boxed 2-6-5 for $1
cost = $6 , I got back $13.80 :cool:

good stuff.

[Capper Al]

We know what it takes to make a Beyer fig or a BRIS fig. I didn't find an explanation of what makes the timeformUS fig? Is there one?

[cj]

We know what it takes to make a Beyer fig or a BRIS fig. I didn't find an explanation of what makes the timeformUS fig? Is there one?

Right on the front page...

http://timeformus.wordpress.com/2013/06/26/timeformus-speed-figures/

And lets not pretend like BRIS spells out the figure process they use, because they don't.

[iceknight]

Instead of continually asking what it has to offer, why don't you go to their site and EDUCATE yourself about it...then you will have a better idea of whether or not you want to use it.

I am guessing that neither CJ nor anyone else with TUS is going to give you a personal tutorial and tour of the site.
You are a big boy - go see for yourself. Spot on Phantom, you forgot to add this picture for good effect though..

http://www.outofmygord.com/images/outofmygord_com/spoonfeeding.jpg

Althought, I agree with Robert (Fisher's) assessment. it is better to ignore people who act like trolls, rather than engaging in a futile war of words.

[Irish Boy]

I see that cards can currently be purchased for $1.50 through the TVG store (this is a fantastic deal, btw). Does anyone know whether this is the plan going forward, or if there will be subscription plans through Timeform itself in the future?

I think I'd have a tough time moving away from DRF pps just from habit, but I certainly plan on using these to supplement my handicapping. The site looks absolutely fantastic.

[cj]

I see that cards can currently be purchased for $1.50 through the TVG store (this is a fantastic deal, btw). Does anyone know whether this is the plan going forward, or if there will be subscription plans through Timeform itself in the future?

I think I'd have a tough time moving away from DRF pps just from habit, but I certainly plan on using these to supplement my handicapping. The site looks absolutely fantastic.

There will be subscription plans available, details to follow this week.

[Longshot6977]

There will be subscription plans available, details to follow this week.

And currently, TVG/NJBETS users get the $1.50 reimbursed the next day if they make at least one bet on that purchased card. I hope it goes along with the Timeform plan. CJ, would you happen to know if this is true?

[cj]

And currently, TVG/NJBETS users get the $1.50 reimbursed the next day if they make at least one bet on that purchased card. I hope it goes along with the Timeform plan. CJ, would you happen to know if this is true?

There will be more to come, but this stuff is not really my field of expertise. I can just ask the question and pass on what I hear.

[Capper Al]

Right on the front page...

http://timeformus.wordpress.com/2013/06/26/timeformus-speed-figures/

And lets not pretend like BRIS spells out the figure process they use, because they don't.

Thanks

[cj]

Thanks

No problem. Do you disagree with me about BRIS figures, or were you just tossing that out there and seeing if it would stick?

[PaceAdvantage]

You read me correctly. This is a new product. Give me a reason to want to even test it.It uses cj's numbers. 'nuff said right there as a reason to try it...this ain't your grandpappy's timeform....

[Irish Boy]

There will be subscription plans available, details to follow this week.
Thanks. I'm even more excited for my trip to Saratoga this summer now.

[Capper Al]

No problem. Do you disagree with me about BRIS figures, or were you just tossing that out there and seeing if it would stick?

No. BRIS is what I use. I later added Beyer because of all this flax about BRIS.

Will the new timeformUS be the same as the ones used in Europe? Will a 107 US equal a 107 in the British Racing Form? If not, will euro horse be provided with a US number?

[MarcAtTimeformUS]

I think this is my first post here in over 2 years? I've been busy, I swear.

A bunch of notes for now:

1) Once I resigned from DRF and started to put a team of innovators together, CJ was on the short list. We're obviously very fortunate to have him involved, as well as getting a group of people involved to help him do what he's always done: relentlessly improve his figures.

2) We're also incredibly fortunate to work with Timeform in England. When horses ship into the US, we've got the best shipper's info out there, bar none, and it's exclusive among US PP providers. What an honor to expand the Timeform brand into the US, with a team of guys across the US working on our product, and also working with key guys in England. Please note we're working to harmonize CJ's numbers on the Timeform Global scale, so you can compare a UK shipper to the numbers Craig gives. The methodologies are somewhat different (they don't have internal fractions over there, etc), but the harmonization is a big potential advantage for our players in races with shippers.

3) Capper Al, I've become decent at giving demos and I want to give you one next week, after we get through commercial launch. Please drop me a note if I can get 30-45 minutes of your time. I think you'll be pleased with what we're doing.

4) Everyone with any questions:

a) e-mail Support@TimeformUS.com and you'll get answers.

b) We have a ton of "how to" stuff up on our site, and more coming.

Start here:
http://timeformus.wordpress.com/2013/06/26/how-timeformus-is-different/

Or if you prefer a brief video, here:
http://timeformus.wordpress.com/2013/06/23/how-to-use-timeformus-com-video/

5) We're going to perpetually refine TimeformUS, just as you perpetually refine your approach as a horseplayer. The game demands it, and deserves it.

6) I think you're going to find our pricing pleasant and straightforward.

7) I think you'll find our product works really nicely on an iPad or an iPad Mini. That's part of our mission as well.

8) We're excited about synthesizing very coomplex info into a very easy-to-use, more visual approach. The pace projector is an expression of CJ's figures that we're really proud of, and if you're spending any of your own time and energy figuring out early pace scenarios, I think you'll grow to love what we offer here. I think we can match you or do better, and more importantly, save you a TON of time.

Ok, gotta go home and have dinner with the family. It's absolutely nuts with launch and I won't be a frequent presence here now, so I urge you to use the support e-mail I mentioned. Moreover, it's not our place to use PA to hype what we're building, though I know you guys must be curious. If you're a modern consumer of information wondering why racing data often doesn't seem that modern, well, we're going to try to change that now.

[aaron]

I have used this product. I don't remember which race,but it was a turf race at Belmont two weeks ago on a Saturday. There were 2 foreign horses in the race. One of the horses had the best numbers and a top trainer.He went off 5-1 and won. This Saturday,the 11th race at Belmont{I did not have this horse},but if you look at the pace projector and isolate the horses turf numbers,you'll see he could have been bet. Perhaps,Marc or CJ can post these races. Anyway,they are worth a look.
Other improvements are still coming and I'm sure they are customer friendly.

[BetHorses!]

This Saturday,the 11th race at Belmont{I did not have this horse},but if you look at the pace projector and isolate the horses turf numbers,you'll see he could have been bet. Perhaps,Marc or CJ can post these races. Anyway,they are worth a look.
Other improvements are still coming and I'm sure they are customer friendly.

It was Hidden Vow and the spotlight fig which is sim to a power rating...the horse was on top.

I make power ratings and that horse was extreme overlay based on CJ figs. His number 3 back was best

[GMB@BP]

And currently, TVG/NJBETS users get the $1.50 reimbursed the next day if they make at least one bet on that purchased card. I hope it goes along with the Timeform plan. CJ, would you happen to know if this is true?

This is a must as half the country is not allowed to have a TVG account, but sounds like they are aware of that, and while affiliated with TVG they are a completely separate entity.

[GMB@BP]

Is there a place to see the horses record on turf, dirt, syn, track?

[MarcAtTimeformUS]

We'll break out surface and distance records in a very cool way. Design is done, but it will take a little time to get to it.

[raybo]

Is there any thought to producing CSV files in addition to the current PPs? Most major providers offer them, just wondering. Also, if you plan to offer CSV files, will you offer an unlimited downloads plan?

Like a few others have posted, if CJ is involved, as well as his figs, I have little doubt this offering will have value.

The big thing, that I see, is "competition" in the racing data marketplace. Competition is always a good thing.

One other thing, will they have a "full race" PPs that you can scroll through, rather than just seeing one horse's PPs at a time, maybe with only the last 10 pacelines?

Overall, from what I've seen so far, impressive! Keep it up, and listen to your customers!

[classhandicapper]

As with all new things there will be a steep learning curve. In trying to guess whether Timeform would be worth such effort, I scanned through their table listing results from playing the best Timeform spotlight figures on 9190 U.S. races (March 15 to June 11, 2013).

Unfortunately, while they show each horse that was bet, they only list the number of wins (29.5%) and in the money (63%) rates. If their numbers mostly pick favorites, it doesn't look good. Missing is the what the horses paid. Don't you think if they had a positive ROI for this test they would have highlighted it?

I'm a little skeptical. Is anyone using their numbers at this time?

They are CJ's numbers.

If you search this forum you'll find plenty of comments on his numbers from his current customers (I've been a customer for many years). They are very good figures and very innovative in the way they incorporate pace into the performance and creation of the track variant.

[aaron]

It was Hidden Vow and the spotlight fig which is sim to a power rating...the horse was on top.

I make power ratings and that horse was extreme overlay based on CJ figs. His number 3 back was best
I think the spotlight figure is a good starting point,but you had to look at all the horses in the race and the pace projector. Also,the horses other turf numbers were competitive. I thought it was a hard race to handicap,but in reviewing it was one of those races where you probably should bet the overlay and hope for the best. The other race I gave as an example was a clear bet. If you were using this product, that was a horse that stood out.

[speed]

Looking at these new pp's man they are tough for me to look at. Lots of information that is not needed for me. Lots of wasted layout on the sides of the page. In trying to make it look pretty, and attract new players, to me it is much more difficult to handicap a race. If you utilized the empty space on the sides and the space between running lines you can fit a few horses on a single page. Cannot imagine handicapping a race by having 1 horse on a page like you do with this. Printing this will be a nightmare at best.
Since they are interactive will there be anyway to view only the information that a user chooses. This way you can view several horses at the same time, which to me makes more sense.
Having Craig involved is great but the way the pages view on a laptop is awful.The endless scrolling across 12 pages to view a full field seems like lots of wasted time and adds difficulty to the handicapping process.
Since Craig is involved i will try them out and hope.
Speed

[Charli125]

Looking at these new pp's man they are tough for me to look at. Lots of information that is not needed for me. Lots of wasted layout on the sides of the page. In trying to make it look pretty, and attract new players, to me it is much more difficult to handicap a race. If you utilized the empty space on the sides and the space between running lines you can fit a few horses on a single page. Cannot imagine handicapping a race by having 1 horse on a page like you do with this. Printing this will be a nightmare at best.
Since they are interactive will there be anyway to view only the information that a user chooses. This way you can view several horses at the same time, which to me makes more sense.
Having Craig involved is great but the way the pages view on a laptop is awful.The endless scrolling across 12 pages to view a full field seems like lots of wasted time and adds difficulty to the handicapping process.
Since Craig is involved i will try them out and hope.
Speed

I thought the same thing, and really wanted to get it all on one page. Here's what I did.

If you're on the Fast PP's tab, click the print icon. In a new tab(or window I guess, depending on what browser you use), you get each horse in the race, with all running lines shown, and all of the information you see when you click on each horse.

Like you, I'd suggest having another tab, or something where you can view all of the horses, like a condensed version basically, but I think this will work for your purposes.

[classhandicapper]

I thought the same thing, and really wanted to get it all on one page. Here's what I did.

If you're on the Fast PP's tab, click the print icon. In a new tab(or window I guess, depending on what browser you use), you get each horse in the race, with all running lines shown, and all of the information you see when you click on each horse.

Like you, I'd suggest having another tab, or something where you can view all of the horses, like a condensed version basically, but I think this will work for your purposes.

This is the short term solution for viewing all the horses in the race in a continuous way with easier scrolling.

The longer term solution will be an option with single scrolling within the PPs that will also give you a way to remove scratches or compare 2 horses one after the other.

[Tom]

Am I the only one having trouble logging in?
I have had to reset my password three times, and each time, the new one works once then not again.

[classhandicapper]

Am I the only one having trouble logging in?
I have had to reset my password three times, and each time, the new one works once then not again.


When you log in, click your name at the top right, change your password there, and you should be fine. If not, send a note to customer service.

[speed]

I thought the same thing, and really wanted to get it all on one page. Here's what I did.

If you're on the Fast PP's tab, click the print icon. In a new tab(or window I guess, depending on what browser you use), you get each horse in the race, with all running lines shown, and all of the information you see when you click on each horse.

Like you, I'd suggest having another tab, or something where you can view all of the horses, like a condensed version basically, but I think this will work for your purposes.
Had done this and it is much more difficult to view only 1 horse at a time. 10 horse field and you are scrolling between 10 pages to look at 1 race. Like i said there has to be a way to get all horses on 3 or 4 pages. If one could customize only the info one wants that might solve many issues. Lots of wasted space i see. Just not sure why it is that way.

[MPRanger]

I couldn't care any less, and I'll leave it up to you guys.

I don't feel like analyzing message board etiquette.
I've got races to analyze, a yard to cut and some errands to run.

:ThmbUp: cool.



Yet, you wasted so much valuable time to write this ....

[raybo]

While I like the idea of more competition in this market, and the fact that CJ's figs are part of the offering, until they make it possible to manipulate the data, I will not be using it. IMO, data that is only available in a static form causes overbetting, eventually. One needs the ability to manipulate the data in order to become dynamic, changing as the game changes. The ability to properly store and analyze the data, in a user friendly platform, is important to profitability. And, I have no interest in going backwards in time, back to pen and paper handicapping (no disrespect meant to those who like that way of handicapping).

All I see right now, is an online DRF with some new bells and whistles. You guys can do better than that I hope. Unless you intend to be like CJ and limit the number of members you accept.

[classhandicapper]

Had done this and it is much more difficult to view only 1 horse at a time. 10 horse field and you are scrolling between 10 pages to look at 1 race. Like i said there has to be a way to get all horses on 3 or 4 pages. If one could customize only the info one wants that might solve many issues. Lots of wasted space i see. Just not sure why it is that way.

Did you read my note above?

[speed]

Did you read my note above?
Yes sir. Still will not be able to have several horses on same page without using the page space more efficiently. Yes what you said is better but far from good. Allowing the customer to customize the page with the data they want is a good start in my opinion. Much wasted space from what i have seen.
I know this is like a soft openiing but they seem not quite ready. That is they do not have all of Craig's numbers in there yet and to me that is most important. I hope i am wrong and that they will be rolling out solutions to what i consider obvious issues.
I don't think Craig has much control over these things, but i have faith. :)

[speed]

That race at Parx that was a sample i only had down to the 7 horse Hailstone showing. When you print it that is.
When the dust settles i do believe that this product will be at the head of the class and if priced properly will gain market share quickly. I just hope there will be solutions for those of us that only want the meat of the product.

[raybo]

Yes sir. Still will not be able to have several horses on same page without using the page space more efficiently. Yes what you said is better but far from good. Allowing the customer to customize the page with the data they want is a good start in my opinion. Much wasted space from what i have seen.
I know this is like a soft openiing but they seem not quite ready. That is they do not have all of Craig's numbers in there yet and to me that is most important. I hope i am wrong and that they will be rolling out solutions to what i consider obvious issues.
I don't think Craig has much control over these things, but i have faith. :)

I agree, if "what you see is what you get", then they will be cutting out many players from their potential client base. Serious users want to be able to "use" the data as they see fit, not just as it exists on the site. And, that doesn't mean printing it out and then having to mark it up with a pencil. Come on guys, this is 2013, we all have computers and we want to use them to get our own edge on the competition. As currently presented, that is not the case. I don't need someone to show me who "they" think is the best horse to bet, I want to determine that myself, by manipulating the data on my computer.

Maybe you guys don't want your customers to have the same capabilities that other data providers give them with their data files, their custom card options, etc.?

Maybe a few here will be satisfied with what you are currently offering, but many more of us will not. You'd be taking us backwards, into the past, not forward, into the future. Sure at first some might profit from this, but that will disappear as your client base increases, just like every other static method. Your ratings will become over bet and any potential profitability will disappear, just like the Beyers and Brisnet's Prime Power ratings.

[Capper Al]

If timeFormUS uses pace in their calculations and timeForm Euro doesn't, how can a 106 US equal a 106 Euro? These are different numbers.

[cj]

If timeFormUS uses pace in their calculations and timeForm Euro doesn't, how can a 106 US equal a 106 Euro? These are different numbers.

Nobody said the numbers were created the same way. They are on the same scale, and hopefully represent the same level of performance. This was a big point of emphasis from the Timeform people, and we came away winning their trust.

[Capper Al]

Nobody said the numbers were created the same way. They are on the same scale, and hopefully represent the same level of performance. This was a big point of emphasis from the Timeform people, and we came away winning their trust.

So a 108 US can be accepted as equivalent to a 108 Euro? Wouldn't this be the same as saying a Beyer - 14 is the same as a timeForm Euro? Your pace projections and race ratings are interesting. Getting CJ's pace projections for a $1.50 is a steal.

Or that could be timeForm Euro - 14 = Beyer. It doesn't matter, the point is the same.

[cj]

So a 108 US can be accepted as equivalent to a 108 Euro?

Yes, that is the goal and I think we've accomplished that, and so does Timeform.

I personally never thought the Beyer/Timeform adjustment was very good, it was too crude, but there were better ones if you put in the work.

[ten2oneormore]

Nobody said the numbers were created the same way. They are on the same scale, and hopefully represent the same level of performance. This was a big point of emphasis from the Timeform people, and we came away winning their trust.

This sucks for those who have grown comfortable with Pace Figures.In sabermetric terms it was like having Miguel Cabrera for the league minimum.Now having to formulate a whole new process is a bit daunting.However I'm sure this is very exciting for you and wish you the best of luck.I have no doubt with you making the figs it will grow into a top notch product.

[proximity]

congratulations to cj (who really deserved the drf pace contract) on this move!!

as for what does he bring to the table vs bris?? (much, i'm sure) more accurate speed charts and variants for starters. the devil is often in the details.

[Maximillion]

The pace projector (much like cj) is very straightforward and thoroughly explained on what it is designed to do.I would rather not wager thru TVG but if that is what is necesssary I would gladly pay it.

[Storm Cadet]

This is the short term solution for viewing all the horses in the race in a continuous way with easier scrolling.

The longer term solution will be an option with single scrolling within the PPs that will also give you a way to remove scratches or compare 2 horses one after the other.

Todays Parx race, I did do the print option to try and view each horses PP's! Guess what, they end after the 7 horse...the eventual winner and the 2X do not show on the screen when you click the print icon in Timeform screen nor when I do the click preview with windows!!! :confused:

Now when I did the Indiana race it filled up my screen full and all the horses came out, when I go to the Parx race, it was only half the screen and as I sail, left out some horses.

[Grits]

Uh oh. This isn't good. :confused: Back to the drawing board, fellas.

[speed]

Todays Parx race, I did do the print option to try and view each horses PP's! Guess what, they end after the 7 horse...the eventual winner and the 2X do not show on the screen when you click the print icon in Timeform screen nor when I do the click preview with windows!!! :confused:

Now when I did the Indiana race it filled up my screen full and all the horses came out, when I go to the Parx race, it was only half the screen and as I sail, left out some horses.
Happened to me as i said earlier to alert them. Wasn't sure if it was just me though.

[PaceAdvantage]

Well, it is in Beta...there's a reason for that...

[Storm Cadet]

Must be something small on their end, I'm sure they will get this thing worked out soon.

Overall I am very please with the product. Being a CJ Pace figs guy almost since 2003 or 04, I almost always did the Bris replace thing as I need all the info that is there! This solves almost all of what I need, as I'm sure we will be getting more of CJ's facets included into the Timeform program.

[MarcAtTimeformUS]

Known bug, fix can't be pushed into production until e-comm is done. Meaning, this weekend we'll push through some refinements. Thx for the patience.

[raybo]

Known bug, fix can't be pushed into production until e-comm is done. Meaning, this weekend we'll push through some refinements. Thx for the patience.

Heck, just give me a CSV export and I'll take care of all the other issues. :)

[cj]

Heck, just give me a CSV export and I'll take care of all the other issues. :)

Have some patience, its early in the process.

[raybo]

Have some patience, its early in the process.

Ahhhh, finally! That's what I was waiting for! Thanks for the hope CJ (hope that a CSV export or data file plan will be offered that is)!

[Capper Al]

Have some patience, its early in the process.

This would be something of interest for me also. Speed figures aren't so hot with BRIS.

[Capper Al]

Yes, that is the goal and I think we've accomplished that, and so does Timeform.

I personally never thought the Beyer/Timeform adjustment was very good, it was too crude, but there were better ones if you put in the work.

The biggest need that I have is bridging the gap with the Euros. Maybe you would consider the Arlington Million card with a lot of Euros for a demo? If it works then we can prepare for the Breeders' Cup.

Is DRF a partner in this?

[Tom]

I've been using the one he doesn't like since Invasor (he ees the best!) won the Pimlico Special and made money over the years. If there is a better one now, start preparing. ;)

The two BCs at SA, on poly - did very well.

[speed]

Have some patience, its early in the process.
Good to hear.

[cj]

The biggest need that I have is bridging the gap with the Euros. Maybe you would consider the Arlington Million card with a lot of Euros for a demo? If it works then we can prepare for the Breeders' Cup.

Is DRF a partner in this?

It already has worked. I'll pull up the Arlington Park card from last year as a demo when I get some time (and I have no idea how he figures turned out results wise). Might be a little slow, did something stupid yesterday and injured my eye, but I'll get it done.

[cj]

I've been using the one he doesn't like since Invasor (he ees the best!) won the Pimlico Special and made money over the years. If there is a better one now, start preparing. ;)

The two BCs at SA, on poly - did very well.

Even that wasn't the straightforward -14 adjustment, it changed depending on the range of the figure and the age of the horses.

[Tom]

Yeah, I
kept up on the evolution of the adjustment.
It was good enough to put several horses close enough so that a 10-1 caught my eye along with the 2-1.

[PhantomOnTour]

I would have won that Pim Special if they had DQ'd Invasor - didn't he come over on someone in the stretch?

EDIT: now I remember - Ramon claimed foul the race before and it was upheld (costing me a 9-1 winner under Norby Arroyo) and then foul was claimed against Ramon and Invasor (in the Pim Spcl) and it was denied.
He came over on West Virginia and caused him to check in the stretch - who rode WV that race?
You got it - Norby Arroyo
OUCH :bang:

[andicap]

For all of those out there who are unsure if they want to use this new product -- for any reason at all: Please DONT use it. Please let the smallest number of people keep the best figures I have ever seen to ourselves. After all, this is a competitive game.

Don't like the interface? No sweat. Feel free to keep using what you have now. I'm sure it works fine for you.

Don't like the lack of printing? Use something that WILL print.

I implore you NOT to use Craig's figures. Stay with what you're used to. This will only confuse you.

Al, I beg of you. Stay with BRIS. It's fine. Nothing new to see here.
Raybo, You're right. Do yourself a favor. Don't subscribe.

;)

(P.S. -- Glad to see you back here, Marc. I knew it was only a matter of time before CJ went "wide." A brilliant move on your part. Best of luck.)

[raybo]

For all of those out there who are unsure if they want to use this new product -- for any reason at all: Please DONT use it. Please let the smallest number of people keep the best figures I have ever seen to ourselves. After all, this is a competitive game.

Don't like the interface? No sweat. Feel free to keep using what you have now. I'm sure it works fine for you.

Don't like the lack of printing? Use something that WILL print.

I implore you NOT to use Craig's figures. Stay with what you're used to. This will only confuse you.

Al, I beg of you. Stay with BRIS. It's fine. Nothing new to see here.
Raybo, You're right. Do yourself a favor. Don't subscribe.

;)

(P.S. -- Glad to see you back here, Marc. I knew it was only a matter of time before CJ went "wide." A brilliant move on your part. Best of luck.)

Since you mentioned my name, exclusively, as one who doesn't like the fact that they are not currently offering data files, I want to make one thing clear. CJ's figs, from what I have been able to ascertain, are indeed the best available. My only problem with using this thing, as it is, is that too many will begin to use those figs as they are currently presented. That cannot be good for the long term value of those figs. So, in affect, I am already preparing for the possibility of them being overbet by the public, and the resulting loss of value on those horses.

Your "tongue-in-cheek" shot at those of us who already see what will probably happen to the value of having such static access to CJ's figs, should be a real concern of yours, and all the other, fortunate, users of those figures. If I were one of the long time users of them, I would be extremely concerned that all my previous expenditures and success with them might be seriously endangered by going "public" in this way.

I try to stay ahead of the competition, so I'm already hoping that data files will be part of the offering, so the value of those figures will not become valueless in the future, for me (yes, my wishes are selfish ones, that's the nature of a paramutuel system). In the current offering, I can't help but think that CJ's figures will quickly become like the Beyers, unprofitable, without the ability to combine them in ways that the public as a whole cannot, thus preserving their value.

I'm not knocking the product, I'm just concerned that they haven't thought this thing through completely (I'm especially surprised that CJ is allowing this, unless it's strictly for the money he will receive for his participation in the venture), and should proceed very carefully.

No offense to CJ or Timeform intended, just expressing concerns I have, and would have if I were in CJ's position.

And, by the way, I don't use any Brisnet figures at all, as they are not anywhere close to being of any value to me. But, if I had access to CJ's figs, in a data file format, you can bet I'd be using them, in one way or another. An accurate odds line comes to mind!

[classhandicapper]

I think the general tendency has been for prices on "figure" horses to decline long term, but I have not seen a lot of evidence that handicappers using the same figures tend to bet most of the same horses. There's still a lot of diversity of opinion.

[raybo]

I think the general tendency has been for prices on "figure" horses to decline long term, but I have not seen a lot of evidence that handicappers using the same figures tend to bet most of the same horses.

So, how do you explain what happened to the Beyers?

[cj]

So, how do you explain what happened to the Beyers?

When Beyers first were published, they were the first quality figure readily available to the public. That has changed a lot. All the figures provided now are at least pretty good, much better than the old DRF rating, with or without + SV.

Figure making is definitely an art. I think I do the best job possible with the information we are given today. But when there is subjectivity, opinions will vary, and that is of course true amongst figure makers. No matter how good a job I do, I won't get them all right, and neither will Beyer, Thorograph, Ragozin, BRIS, Equibase, etc. My personal opinion is that those using humans (not BRIS, Equibase) will be better long term, but not all the time.

Anyway, my point was I don't think it is just Beyer figures that drove prices down. It is a bunch of quality figures making the game easier to identify contenders than it ever was before. More that that, it is the state of racing today. Small fields and uncompetitive races are making the job of picking winners easier than ever before.

Figures alone are never going to beat the game any longer. But having the best ones available will help in the handicapping process. TimeformUS is providing plenty of other stuff in that regard as well. This isn't just about my figures.

[CincyHorseplayer]

I think the thing about Beyers are they are final time only and that doesn't get it done,nor IMO does a performance figure.Looking at a complete race array of figures,it took me a while with the help of Quinn's Figure Handicapping and Fotias' work,plus my own experience to get a handle on it,but it far exceeds the value of final time only.I think the Bris and Equibase figures just have too many flaws in them.Inflated figures by obviously bad horses.Races that look too competitive.I'm not here to be a tout for CJ but in comparing different figures,there is no comparison.

Last year I bet I'm A Dreamer and Afsare on the Arlington Million card(1st-2nd).The last few years I've been more interested in understanding the class structure of European race,so this piques my interest.

[Exotic1]

For all of those out there who are unsure if they want to use this new product -- for any reason at all: Please DONT use it. Please let the smallest number of people keep the best figures I have ever seen to ourselves. After all, this is a competitive game.

Don't like the interface? No sweat. Feel free to keep using what you have now. I'm sure it works fine for you.

Don't like the lack of printing? Use something that WILL print.

I implore you NOT to use Craig's figures. Stay with what you're used to. This will only confuse you.

Al, I beg of you. Stay with BRIS. It's fine. Nothing new to see here.
Raybo, You're right. Do yourself a favor. Don't subscribe.

;)

(P.S. -- Glad to see you back here, Marc. I knew it was only a matter of time before CJ went "wide." A brilliant move on your part. Best of luck.)

Suitable for framing.

[Robert Goren]

My question is where are you going to get the raw times. Will you use the Equibase times like everybody else or will you some how get other times like from Trackus or time the races yourself?

[cj]

My question is where are you going to get the raw times. Will you use the Equibase times like everybody else or will you some how get other times like from Trackus or time the races yourself?

The PPs use Equibase as the supplier of data. That doesn't, however, mean I am stuck using the times for my figures. I can and often do check any available source when something doesn't look right, and I am pretty darn good at spotting errors after all these years.

[cj]

The PPs use Equibase as the supplier of data. That doesn't, however, mean I am stuck using the times for my figures. I can and often do check any available source when something doesn't look right, and I am pretty darn good at spotting errors after all these years.

To be clear about the above, I just don't see an error and "break it out" from the other races. I investigate and figure out the real time, at least the best I can.

[TheEdge07]

Im in the minority i like the pps for one horse at a time.click and u only see the pps for that one horse.im all in..good luck to all involved..

[Robert Fischer]

Belmont Park | Race 9


great race to handicap.

9F maiden on the inner turf. A whole lineup of good connections and well meant entries.


https://timeformus.com/

[BetHorses!]

I think #4 Neolexia ML is high

Good race...wide open

[PICSIX]

The pace projector (much like cj) is very straightforward and thoroughly explained on what it is designed to do.I would rather not wager thru TVG but if that is what is necesssary I would gladly pay it.

I'm looking forward to comparing my pace projections to those generated by TimeformUS! :ThmbUp:

[MarcAtTimeformUS]

It might be a good race to handicap, but wouldn't it be nice to have pedigree ratings based on Craig's figures, too? Coming very soon. The fun parts about that one:
1) the team has built this piece with only a bit of counsel from Craig, so we get to impress the Chief Figure Maker with just how good of breeding ratings we can make out of his numbers. Craig has been patient through the Perpetual Dev Cyle, it will be nice to do something fresh with his numbers.

2) At first we'll just display a single number on a 100 point scale: how well this horse is bred for turf routes, for example, based on the figure history of his family. But the display will eventually become one heck of a pop-out, giving you... A lot more. I'll leave it at that for now.

3) one step in the process will be integrating overseas horses into the ratings. If today's runner has several 1/2 sibs who were rock stars in Ireland on turf, we will eventually capture that in our pedigree ratings, too. Another benefit of harmonizing our figure scale with the TF global scale.

[raybo]

I think #4 Neolexia ML is high

Good race...wide open

Yeah, I have its fair odds at 6/1.

[Robert Fischer]

Yeah, I have its fair odds at 6/1.

What do you guys think about Johnny V on the :2:MAGICAL WORLD instead of Pletcher's :1: PATH OF DREAMS??

Could have been a previous commitment?

Could have been connections just wanted a rare new direction after a couple near misses w/1 ?

Do they think the 2 has serious potential ??

just another puzzle.

virtual 'murderers row' of trainers in here Pletcher,Shug,Brown,Toner,Shirreffs,Hushion,Bush,M ott,Bond :eek:
vying for a $75K purse

good handicapper's race

[raybo]

What do you guys think about Johnny V on the :2:MAGICAL WORLD instead of Pletcher's :1: PATH OF DREAMS??

Could have been a previous commitment?

Could have been connections just wanted a rare new direction after a couple near misses w/1 ?

Do they think the 2 has serious potential ??

just another puzzle.

virtual 'murderers row' of trainers in here Pletcher,Shug,Brown,Toner,Shirreffs,Hushion,Bush,M ott,Bond :eek:
vying for a $75K purse

good handicapper's race

I suspect it's a previous commitment thing, and maybe that Shug wants Velazquez on his horse because he is expecting the horse to "wake up" at 9f on the turf and wants V to be in the saddle if that happens.

Just another question we, as handicappers, have to ponder. If the horse runs a really good race, I guess we'll have our answer. :lol:

[classhandicapper]

So, how do you explain what happened to the Beyers?

I don't think it was a case of Beyer figures losing value because he came public with them.

I think a lot more people started using time based figures from a variety of sources (or making their own) so there has been a general decline in the price of the fastest horses for all brands of final time figures. His books may have had something to do with that.

But if you have figures that measure performance in a different way equally well or do a better job of measuring performance than final time figures alone, I think you are on safer ground unless TimeformUS captures almost the whole market. I use the figures and I'm not worried, though Marc may be intent on capturing the whole market. :lol:

[classhandicapper]

Im in the minority i like the pps for one horse at a time.click and u only see the pps for that one horse.im all in..good luck to all involved..

The major advantage is that you can bounce from #1 to #14 and back quickly without turning pages, scrolling endlessly etc....

[Robert Fischer]

I suspect it's a previous commitment thing, and maybe that Shug wants Velazquez on his horse because he is expecting the horse to "wake up" at 9f on the turf and wants V to be in the saddle if that happens.

Just another question we, as handicappers, have to ponder. If the horse runs a really good race, I guess we'll have our answer. :lol:

Pace Projector shows the :1: as the 2nd likely speed.

with that inside post and this distance, I'd have to guess Saez will have the :1: on or near the lead saving ground. I think she's a big threat to win here and I want 7/2 or higher (ML is 6-1).

[raybo]

I don't think it was a case of Beyer figures losing value because he came public with them.

I think a lot more people started using time based figures from a variety of sources (or making their own) so there has been a general decline in the price of the fastest horses for all brands of final time figures. His books may have had something to do with that.

But if you have figures that measure performance in a different way equally well or do a better job of measuring performance than final time figures alone, I think you are on safer ground unless TimeformUS captures almost the whole market. I use the figures and I'm not worried, though Marc may be intent on capturing the whole market. :lol:

At $1.50 per card, that will be quite attractive to a whole lot of players. Also, since, as of now, one cannot create CJ's figures, and if they prove to be as good as what many say they are, the only way you can get them is via this offering, which means that a whole lot of players will be betting the same high fig horses presented in this offering, resulting in decreased prices on those horses.

[raybo]

Pace Projector shows the :1: as the 2nd likely speed.

with that inside post and this distance, I'd have to guess Saez will have the :1: on or near the lead saving ground. I think she's a big threat to win here and I want 7/2 or higher (ML is 6-1).

The :1: has been on or near the lead in its last 3 races, and hasn't won yet. Good luck.

[classhandicapper]

At $1.50 per card, that will be quite attractive to a whole lot of players. Also, since, as of now, one cannot create CJ's figures, and if they prove to be as good as what many say they are, the only way you can get them is via this offering, which means that a whole lot of players will be betting the same high fig horses presented in this offering, resulting in decreased prices on those horses.

Someone that feels like you should probably make their own figures.

The reality that part of the game is using the same information better.

[raybo]

Someone that feels like you should probably make their own figures.

The reality that part of the game is using the same information better.

I do, but they are velocity based. I was forced to do that because of the poor quality of the pace figures around. CJ's pace figures, according to his users, are far from poor. So, if they were offered to me, I would definitely look at them, but only if they came in a data file, not as they are currently presented. I would not use them by themselves though, but in combination with other factors, and I am not inclined to do that with a paper and pencil and a calculator, which is the only way that could be done with the current offering.

[cj]

A review of the races at Belmont so far:

Race 1: Pace Projector 5-1A-7 (Favors Horses On/Near Early Lead)
Best by last Speed Figure on today's surface: 7(90) 5(82) 6(81) 1A(81)

1A first time for Jacobsen

Horses were 5-1A-7 after the pace call, and finished 1A-5-7.

Winner paid 4.20, exacta 45.80, trifecta 122.00.

Race 2: All first time starters

Race 3: Pace Projector 5-3-6 (No Favors designation)
Best by last Speed Figure on today's surface: 8 (83) 2 (74) 5 and 6 (71)

Horses were 6-5-1 after a 1/2 (3 was checked sharply early), and finished 8-5-2.

Winner paid $8.60, exacta 50.50, and trifecta 102.00.

Race 4: Pace Projector 3-6-4 (Favors Horses On/Near Early Lead)
Best by last Speed Figure on today's surface: 3 (95) 6 (86) 1 (85)

Was 3-6-5 after the 1/4 mile, finished 3-5-1.

Winner paid 9.10, exacta 35.00, trifecta 150.00.

More to come after more races are run, good, bad or indifferent.

[cj]

Race 5: Pace projector 1-3-5 (No Favors designation)

Best by last Speed Figure on today's surface: 3 (90) 1 (87) 5 (80)

2 MTP

[cj]

Race 6: Pace projector 8-1-2 (No Favors designation)

Best by last Speed Figure on today's surface: 3 (56) 2 (52) 9 (51)

[proximity]

2) At first we'll just display a single number on a 100 point scale: how well this horse is bred for turf routes, for example, based on the figure history of his family. But the display will eventually become one heck of a pop-out, giving you... A lot more. I'll leave it at that for now.
.

one problem with drf is that a horse could have a good rating for today's circumstances, but you can't see if his other ratings are possibly excellent or poor..... specifically the distance tomlinsons. so it would be good to see ALL of a horse's ratings.

[cj]

Race 5: Pace projector 1-3-5 (No Favors designation)

Best by last Speed Figure on today's surface: 3 (90) 1 (87) 5 (80)

2 MTP

Horses were 1-3-5 after the 1/4, finished 4-3-1. Surely a huge new top 3rd off the layoff and second off the claim for the 4, wasn't finding this one with figures.

[raybo]

Race 6: Pace projector 8-1-2 (No Favors designation)

Best by last Speed Figure on today's surface: 3 (56) 2 (52) 9 (51)

I've got it as favoring a late horse, :3: or :8:

Don't have a running style for :2: or :5: though (?)

[cj]

I've got it as favoring a late horse, :3: or :8:

Don't have a running style for :2: or :5: though (?)

These things are always tricky in maiden races. Running styles can and do change often. The 2, for example, showed zero speed first three times out, then led his last race before collapsing.

[raybo]

These things are always tricky in maiden races. Running styles can and do change often. The 2, for example, showed zero speed first three times out, then led his last race before collapsing.

I agree, and everybody's running styles are different, too. The ones I use are drastically different than most, not even close to Brisnet's. Early speed points differ also, so using running styles and early speed points that are not like everybody else's puts you on horses that the public doesn't care for many times.

And, of course, this is a turf race where running styles don't have as much impact, versus dirt races. I weight class and distance higher in turf races, versus pace, speed, and style, which would put me on :9: :8: and :6: .

[Robert Fischer]

r6 is just kind of a low quality field.

:6: could compete if no one else fires.

[raybo]

r6 is just kind of a low quality field.

:6: could compete if no one else fires.

Yeah, it's pretty much a crap shoot, with the 4 being the horse to beat, I suppose, looks like it is on the improve (?)

[Robert Fischer]

well, somebody fired.

that was a tough race anyway

[raybo]

well, somebody fired.

that was a tough race anyway

Yeah, lack of data on all horses can bite you in the butt!

:6: did get a distant 2nd though. :lol:

[cj]

These things are always tricky in maiden races. Running styles can and do change often. The 2, for example, showed zero speed first three times out, then led his last race before collapsing.

I kind of suspected the 2 would revert to off the pace, and ran a very nice race, winning at 5 to 1.

2-6-1? Think the 1 got 3rd.

After a 1/2 they were sitting 1-5-8.

[raybo]

In race 7 I've got the :7: :6: :3: virtually tied. :2: :3: :6: at the 1/4 mile. Favors later horses P and S.

[andicap]

Per the concern about everyone betting the high fig horse and killing the prices:

I love races where I can bet AGAINST the high figure horse. My win% won't be as lofty but I'll make up for it in the price. It takes a bit more patience to find the right races but that's OK with me.

Those who stay ahead of the crowd will still prosper, even using the same figures. For example, I try to combine CJ's figures with form cycle analysis, something the rank-and-file TimeForm subscriber may not take the time to do. Once again, going the extra mile will separate the wheat from the chaff.

[raybo]

I kind of suspected the 2 would revert to off the pace, and ran a very nice race, winning at 5 to 1.

2-6-1? Think the 1 got 3rd.

After a 1/2 they were sitting 1-5-8.

Yeah the 1 got 3rd. Not having styles on the 2 and 5 didn't help me, but class didn't come to the front in that turf race, as I thought it would.

[raybo]

Per the concern about everyone betting the high fig horse and killing the prices:

I love races where I can bet AGAINST the high figure horse. My win% won't be as lofty but I'll make up for it in the price. It takes a bit more patience to find the right races but that's OK with me.

Those who stay ahead of the crowd will still prosper, even using the same figures. For example, I try to combine CJ's figures with form cycle analysis, something the rank-and-file TimeForm subscriber may not take the time to do. Once again, going the extra mile will separate the wheat from the chaff.

I agree, but without having the data in a form that allows computer manipulation, makes that tougher to do.

[cj]

Race 7: Pace Projector 6-4-2 (Favors Horses On/Near Lead)
FYI...Pace projector does show predicted spacing as well.

Best by last Speed Figure on today's surface: 2 (92) 3 (91) 1 (88)

Another FYI...I'm in no way implying the last figure is all that matters, just keeping it simple for now.

[raybo]

I had the 6 as a P3 and 4 as a P7, which I doubt anyone else here has them as those styles and early points.

[raybo]

:6: :2: :3: :5: the 6 pressed the 4 and then the 4 faded.

[cj]

Race 7: Pace Projector 6-4-2 (Favors Horses On/Near Lead)
FYI...Pace projector does show predicted spacing as well.

Best by last Speed Figure on today's surface: 2 (92) 3 (91) 1 (88)

Another FYI...I'm in no way implying the last figure is all that matters, just keeping it simple for now.

This one worked out well...4-6-2 early, 4 quit and came in 6-2-3. The 2 at 12-1 was the key.

[raybo]

This one worked out well...4-6-2 early, 4 quit and came in 6-2-3. The 2 at 12-1 was the key.

Yeah the 2 I had as a P0, also a contender, at a nice price, but not a "win" contender for me.

[cj]

Yeah the 2 I had as a P0, also a contender, at a nice price, but not a "win" contender for me.

I don't do pace with EPS and Quirin Speed points. It is much more velocity based, though my own assigned styles do play a part.

[aaron]

Race 7: Pace Projector 6-4-2 (Favors Horses On/Near Lead)
FYI...Pace projector does show predicted spacing as well.

Best by last Speed Figure on today's surface: 2 (92) 3 (91) 1 (88)

Another FYI...I'm in no way implying the last figure is all that matters, just keeping it simple for now.
Even though he lost,in my opinion the 2 was worth a play in the 7th. Horse was dropping down,trainer was okay off layoff .Also was suspicious of #3 because in NY a claim from Jacobson is a negative claim.

[cj]

Even though he lost,in my opinion the 2 was worth a play in the 7th. Horse was dropping down,trainer was okay off layoff .Also was suspicious of #3 because in NY a claim from Jacobson is a negative claim.

I agree, I was big time against the 3, a Jacobson dump job.

[raybo]

Race 8 :2: :7: :8: at the 1/4, :8: :4: :1: at the 1/2. Does not favor any run style. Final projection :6: :8: :1:

Class/distance (turf race) :5: :6: :1:

[raybo]

I don't do pace with EPS and Quirin Speed points. It is much more velocity based, though my own assigned styles do play a part.

I just use style and points as eliminators, I use velocities for pace projections and pace matchups.

[aaron]

I don't do pace with EPS and Quirin Speed points. It is much more velocity based, though my own assigned styles do play a part.
Will your assigned styles be in the past performances ?

[Robert Fischer]

1 Win For Kitten is solid here in the 8th,- but not at these prices

I actually hope she wins here, so I can eliminate her next time out.

There aren't a bunch of attractive options, and she is a bit of an underlay.

[cj]

R8: Pace Projection: 2-7-(5,6)
Best by last Speed Figure on today's surface:1 (75) 7 (74) 6 (74)
FYI...5 ran 81, but only has dirt races

I won't do the 9th since that is the free race on the site. Feel free to check it out.

[raybo]

Will your assigned styles be in the past performances ?

Yeah, I noticed that they aren't there yet, at least I couldn't find them. IMO, they should be available. I'm always looking for better ways to assign styles and early points. There are so many ways to do it, it becomes very frustrating at times.

[cj]

Will your assigned styles be in the past performances ?

You know, I don't know. I'll check on that if Marc or Classhandicapper doesn't answer first.

[raybo]

R8: Pace Projection: 2-7-(5,6)
Best by last Speed Figure on today's surface:1 (75) 7 (74) 6 (74)
FYI...5 ran 81, but only has dirt races

I won't do the 9th since that is the free race on the site. Feel free to check it out.

Yeah, I have no velocities for the 5 because he doesn't have any surface/distance qualified pacelines to use, so "subjective" methods must be used for him.

[Robert Fischer]

5 could be ok , or someone goofy like the 3.

Win for Kitten should be a good barameter for their future races as well. If anyone is good in here they should at least make her work.

[raybo]

1 Win For Kitten is solid here in the 8th,- but not at these prices

I actually hope she wins here, so I can eliminate her next time out.

There aren't a bunch of attractive options, and she is a bit of an underlay.

She'll have to come from behind in this one (S0 style for me). Don't have much confidence in her doing that against these, at least not to win. ITM is a different story.

[Robert Fischer]

She'll have to come from behind in this one (S0 style for me). Don't have much confidence in her doing that against these, at least not to win. ITM is a different story.

she's not much filly, but(coming into this race) her form was pretty and she has a great trainer.

too bad she couldn't win today when i passed.

[raybo]

5 could be ok , or someone goofy like the 3.

Win for Kitten should be a good barameter for their future races as well. If anyone is good in here they should at least make her work.

3 would really be "goofy". 5 is kind of an unknown quantity for me, but looks ok on class and distance.

[raybo]

she's not much filly, but(coming into this race) her form was pretty and she has a great trainer.

too bad she couldn't win today when i passed.

I figure she hit a top in the last race. Repeat? Don't think so, but I've been wrong from time to time. :lol:

[raybo]

:2: :8: :3: :6: nice price on the 2!

[Robert Fischer]

R8: Pace Projection: 2-7-(5,6)
Best by last Speed Figure on today's surface:1 (75) 7 (74) 6 (74)
FYI...5 ran 81, but only has dirt races

I won't do the 9th since that is the free race on the site. Feel free to check it out.

your 2 took them all the way :ThmbUp:

[cj]

R8: Pace Projection: 2-7-(5,6)
Best by last Speed Figure on today's surface:1 (75) 7 (74) 6 (74)
FYI...5 ran 81, but only has dirt races

I won't do the 9th since that is the free race on the site. Feel free to check it out.

2-7-1 early, finishes 2-8-3.

[raybo]

your 2 took them all the way :ThmbUp:

I assume CJs pace projection was at the 1/2 mile? I had the 2 first at the 1/4m but not at the 1/2m. I tend to look at the 1/4m as being more important, at all distances, rather than just in sprints.

[cj]

I assume CJs pace projection was at the 1/2 mile? I had the 2 first at the 1/4m but not at the 1/2m. I tend to look at the 1/4m as being more important, at all distances, rather than just in sprints.

I use the 1/4 for sprints, the 1/2 for routes. I find route races are usually still sorting themselves out on the turn (the 1/4) while they establish more order at the half.

[raybo]

Race 9, another turf race, class/distance :4: :1: :6: :3:

Not crazy about this race. Looking for a little bit of pace breakdown here, if that doesn't happen then I might miss it completely.

[Robert Fischer]

The :1: has been on or near the lead in its last 3 races, and hasn't won yet. Good luck.

I guess we will see in a couple minutes.

:1: Path of Dreams will either make or break my day.

I think I see an improving horse, but there are a bunch of unknowns.

Ice cold on the board :confused: I'm betting WPS and wheeling 1 top and bottom of all in exactas.

[raybo]

I use the 1/4 for sprints, the 1/2 for routes. I find route races are usually still sorting themselves out on the turn (the 1/4) while they establish more order at the half.

Yeah, I think that's the general consensus, but the quarter shouldn't be ignored IMO.

[raybo]

I guess we will see in a couple minutes.

:1: Path of Dreams will either make or break my day.

I think I see an improving horse, but there are a bunch of unknowns.

Ice cold on the board :confused: I'm betting WPS and wheeling 1 top and bottom of all in exactas.

The 1 definitely improved, early, in the last and has more room for added improvement, late, so might run a big race.

Good luck! Good price if it does!!

[Robert Goren]

9/1 on Pletcher is hard to pass up.

[raybo]

9/1 on Pletcher is hard to pass up.

Is Pletcher running the race? :lol:

[cj]

Yeah, I think that's the general consensus, but the quarter shouldn't be ignored IMO.

I don't ignore it, and the 2 would have been there first as well. We just use one call for the pace projector, and we chose the 4f call.

[Robert Goren]

:11: is the interesting horse, a 250K YEARLING with a lot of bullets. She is either really good or they are trying to get her in shape.

[cj]

9/1 on Pletcher is hard to pass up.

I'll have to pull up some stats to be sure, but I would bet the higher the odds on Pletcher horses, the worse the ROI gets...just a hunch.

[raybo]

Well the 1 pulled it out. Had it 2nd but that one surprised me. Congrats man!!

My top class horse, the 4, got in there for 3rd too. The 11 looked strong but faded a bit, didn't have it anywhere.

[Robert Goren]

Is Pletcher running the race? :lol: Pletcher is fast filly:jump:

[Zydeco]

I guess we will see in a couple minutes.

:1: Path of Dreams will either make or break my day.

I think I see an improving horse, but there are a bunch of unknowns.

Ice cold on the board :confused: I'm betting WPS and wheeling 1 top and bottom of all in exactas.

Make my day!!!!

[Robert Goren]

I'll have to pull up some stats to be sure, but I would bet the higher the odds on Pletcher horses, the worse the ROI gets...just a hunch. You might be right, but I have seen plenty of Pletcher horses win at those odds.

[raybo]

Pletcher is fast filly:jump:

Had plenty left late, that's for sure! At those odds it would have been a bet for me, but I passed the race.

[raybo]

Overall, not a bad card, but there are much better ones IMO. I like Belmont, it's not your normal track; deep surface, size, wide turns, long stretch, etc., and you can get some decent prices there.

[Robert Goren]

:11: is the interesting horse, a 250K YEARLING with a lot of bullets. She is either really good or they are trying to get her in shape. I guess it was the latter.

[cj]

Now that it is over, a recap:

Pace Projector: 6-1-7-11, no style favored
Best by last Speed Figure on today's surface:1 (82) 6 (82) 3 (77)

Was 6-11-2-7 after a half, finished 1-5-4, 1 was 6 to 1.

[raybo]

I guess we will see in a couple minutes.

:1: Path of Dreams will either make or break my day.

I think I see an improving horse, but there are a bunch of unknowns.

Ice cold on the board :confused: I'm betting WPS and wheeling 1 top and bottom of all in exactas.

$147 $1 exacta, nice play Robert!!

[raybo]

Now that it is over, a recap:

Pace Projector: 6-1-7-11, no style favored
Best by last Speed Figure on today's surface:1 (82) 6 (82) 3 (77)

Was 6-11-2-7 after a half, finished 1-5-4, 1 was 6 to 1.

Yeah, it looked like it was between the class/distance ranked horses for the win. Wish I'd played the race! :bang:

[raybo]

I guess it was the latter.

For sure! Looked really strong until the fade.

[Cratos]

Congratulations to Timeform/Betfair for putting together TUS if it happened that way.

I have been a Phil Bull-ian for over 30 years and never a Beyer-ian. I say that not in a demeaning way, but I never thought speed figures were (and still don’t) the right approach to a quantitative handicapping methodology for deriving a qualitative assessment of a racehorse.

Also what is good about TUS to me is that it might be a way to better integrate the world horseracing markets; only time will tell.

[raybo]

Now that it is over, a recap:

Pace Projector: 6-1-7-11, no style favored
Best by last Speed Figure on today's surface:1 (82) 6 (82) 3 (77)

Was 6-11-2-7 after a half, finished 1-5-4, 1 was 6 to 1.

I had :6: :7: :1: at the quarter, :4: :6: :7: at the half.

[raybo]

Hmmmm ---- maybe we should do this again, it was fun, and lots of angles from different folks. Entertaining, at least for me.

[cj]

I had :6: :7: :1: at the quarter, :4: :6: :7: at the half.

I would almost never have this. How often does a horse not in the top 3 surge to the front at the 1/2? Seems pretty odd.

[cj]

Hmmmm ---- maybe we should do this again, it was fun, and lots of angles from different folks. Entertaining, at least for me.

I will try to do it again tomorrow.

[Capper Al]

Hey Pace cappers, everything fails (speed, class, connections, etc.). How would you guess that the pace figurers are good for the race and the race will run as expected?

[cj]

Hey Pace cappers, everything fails (speed, class, connections, etc.). How would you guess that the pace figurers are good for the race and the race will run as expected?

Can you try that again in English?

[cordep17]

Hey Pace cappers, everything fails (speed, class, connections, etc.). How would you guess that the pace figurers are good for the race and the race will run as expected?

You are on a role lately.
I second CJ's motion.

[aaron]

Now that it is over, a recap:

Pace Projector: 6-1-7-11, no style favored
Best by last Speed Figure on today's surface:1 (82) 6 (82) 3 (77)

Was 6-11-2-7 after a half, finished 1-5-4, 1 was 6 to 1.
I had the One in this race,but I used it because of less than ideal trip in his last race plus a good race at Gulfstream. I also liked the jockey change.Also,it didn't hurt that he had 2 or 4 numbers that could win the race.
Thanks for this thread,I really made the day enjoyable.

[BetHorses!]

Yeah, I have its fair odds at 6/1.


I had at 8-1 which means a play at 9-1 or higher. 7-1 no bet

[Capper Al]

Can you try that again in English?

I get a sense when the top speed or class horse is at risk. With pace I look at the amout of early types and quirin speed points, but calling the pace can be difficult.

[cj]

I get a sense when the top speed or class horse is at risk. With pace I look at the amout of early types and quirin speed points, but calling the pace can be difficult.

Sure, it is difficult, and nobody will be right all the time.

I think today was pretty represntative of how the Pace Projector performs:

Race 1: 1-2-3 are 1-2-3 at 1C.
Race 3: 1-2-3 are 2-X-X at 1C.
Race 4: 1-2-3 are 1-2-X at 1C.
Race 5: 1-2-3 are 1-2-3 at 1C.
Race 6: 1-2-3 are 3-X-1 at 1C.
Race 7: 1-2-3 are 2-1-3 at 1C.
Race 8: 1-2-3 are 1-2-X at 1C.
Race 9: 1-2-3 are 1-X-X at 1C.

Out of 8 races, we had the leader right five times and in top three 7/8 times. We had the top three correct 17 out of 24. We also had the top two correct and in order 50% of the time.

3 Races designated Favors Horses On/Near Early Lead

R1: 1-2 horses at 1C finished in reverse order, $45 exacta.
R4: Leader won easily at 7-2.
R7: 2-3 horses early run 1-2, $70 exacta

All the horses above were identified as being on/near the lead.

0 Races designated Hot Pace.

[raybo]

I would almost never have this. How often does a horse not in the top 3 surge to the front at the 1/2? Seems pretty odd.

That doesn't surprise me, I use velocity "ranges", not single velocity figures, so I get a "range" for each of the 3 segments of the race, the ones I posted were assuming their best velocities would be run. The value of my approach is that one can see improving velocities, versus the other runners, in each segment. So, the fact that the 4 was positioned 1st at the 1/2m, only means that he has the potential to do that, not that he will do it. It represents a horse that is not a contender early but has more sustained or late speed than others in the field.

Projections are just that, projections, as you know. Sometimes they work and sometimes they don't, depends on what happens in the running of the race.

[MarcAtTimeformUS]

One of my favorite things we're doing with Craig's toolbox is adjusting race fractions (in running lines) for the speed of the track. You guys can tell me if it's been offered in any product before. In our case, the user has the option of choosing the official Equibase fractions OR "adjusted" fractions that take into account how fast or slow the track was that day. Simply click on a running line, and choose adjusted or official fractions. We're still refining the process but it's a really great way to tell if a horse is getting into condition or not--you can see how his fractions compare to recent fractions he ran in other races. Among other uses.

[raybo]

Sure, it is difficult, and nobody will be right all the time.

I think today was pretty represntative of how the Pace Projector performs:

Race 1: 1-2-3 are 1-2-3 at 1C.
Race 3: 1-2-3 are 2-X-X at 1C.
Race 4: 1-2-3 are 1-2-X at 1C.
Race 5: 1-2-3 are 1-2-3 at 1C.
Race 6: 1-2-3 are 3-X-1 at 1C.
Race 7: 1-2-3 are 2-1-3 at 1C.
Race 8: 1-2-3 are 1-2-X at 1C.
Race 9: 1-2-3 are 1-X-X at 1C.

Out of 8 races, we had the leader right five times and in top three 7/8 times. We had the top three correct 17 out of 24. We also had the top two correct and in order 50% of the time.

3 Races designated Favors Horses On/Near Early Lead

R1: 1-2 horses at 1C finished in reverse order, $45 exacta.
R4: Leader won easily at 7-2.
R7: 2-3 horses early run 1-2, $70 exacta

All the horses above were identified as being on/near the lead.

0 Races designated Hot Pace.

Yeah, I saw all of the races as being either average pace or slow pace, no speed burners today. That doesn't mean there wouldn't be any pace matchups though, which favors later style horses, it just means there were no hot early paces projected. Even in a race lacking in speed, there can still be pace duels that result in those horses fading, and Ps or Ss coming on to win.

[raybo]

One of my favorite things we're doing with Craig's toolbox is adjusting race fractions (in running lines) for the speed of the track. You guys can tell me if it's been offered in any product before. In our case, the user has the option of choosing the official Equibase fractions OR "adjusted" fractions that take into account how fast or slow the track was that day. Simply click on a running line, and choose adjusted or official fractions. We're still refining the process but it's a really great way to tell if a horse is getting into condition or not--you can see how his fractions compare to recent fractions he ran in other races. Among other uses.

Yeah, there are other sources that offer adjusted or non-adjusted options. Mine can be adjusted in a variety of ways, or the adjustments can be turned off. It's up to the user.

[PaceAdvantage]

I agree, but without having the data in a form that allows computer manipulation, makes that tougher to do.How many times are you going to post the same thing, albeit using slightly different words each time?

We get your position. No need to keep repeating it...

[raybo]

How many times are you going to post the same thing, albeit using slightly different words each time?

We get your position. No need to keep repeating it...

Well, I never got a clear answer for one thing, only a vague one, that didn't really address the question directly.

But, since you are evidently disturbed, by what appears to be something most data providers provide, then I won't mention it again.

I'm sorry if the question was improper.

[PaceAdvantage]

How many times are you going to post the same thing, albeit using slightly different words each time?

We get your position. No need to keep repeating it...Not to pile on you or anything, but one gets a sense while reading this thread that this has suddenly become the raybo vs. timeform thread...why is that?

Lots of "mine can be adjusted" and "my figures" and "my this" and "my that..." Aren't there already threads about your software where you do this kind of thing and can continue doing it there, and let those who want to talk about timeform do that here?

Disclaimer: I have no vested interest in this product, other than the fact that they may (hopefully) spend some advertising dollars here one day, and cj is a longtime friend from this board.

[PaceAdvantage]

Well, I never got a clear answer for one thing, only a vague one, that didn't really address the question directly.

But, since you are evidently disturbed, by what appears to be something most data providers provide, then I won't mention it again.

I'm sorry if the question was improper.I never said the question was improper. I'm wondering why you keep posting it over and over and over again.

You can contact them directly on their website or PM marc or cj here or get their direct attention any number of ways I'm betting.

Don't put words in my mouth and make others think I told you the question was improper. I never said or even implied such a thing.

[raybo]

Not to pile on you or anything, but one gets a sense while reading this thread that this has suddenly become the raybo vs. timeform thread...why is that?

Lots of "mine can be adjusted" and "my figures" and "my this" and "my that..." Aren't there already threads about your software where you do this kind of thing and can continue doing it there, and let those who want to talk about timeform do that here?

Disclaimer: I have no vested interest in this product, other than the fact that they may (hopefully) spend some advertising dollars here one day, and cj is a longtime friend from this board.

Again, I stated that if the data could be exported as a data file I would be interested in using the product, as many others who use data files will also probably be. As it is presented, that is not going to happen, and that's our loss.

I'll just quietly step out of this thread.

[PaceAdvantage]

Again, I stated that if the data could be exported as a data file I would be interested in using the product, as many others who use data files will also probably be. As it is presented, that is not going to happen, and that's our loss.

I'll just quietly step out of this thread.Geez man, it's in BETA...don't you see the big BETA sign up there? OBVIOUSLY, not all features are in place...and not every feature THAT WILL EVER BE has been developed yet...

I don't know what's up with you or why you have such a huge interest in going at the angle you're going, but it just seems strange...step out or don't step out...whatever...

I will point out that cj has been offering his figures for years and has had no problem getting customers...and all this time, he hasn't offered a CSV export of his numbers and it hasn't hurt him one bit.

Again, we get your position...hopefully, they'll be able to satisfy your needs once they actually get the site past BETA status...

They seem to be talking a fairly accommodating customer game...so I would think they would entertain your suggestions seriously and would look to provide what you're looking for if they think it's something that will be well received by their customer base.

[Robert Fischer]

Sure, it is difficult, and nobody will be right all the time.

I think today was pretty representative of how the Pace Projector performs:

Race 1: 1-2-3 are 1-2-3 at 1C.
Race 3: 1-2-3 are 2-X-X at 1C.
Race 4: 1-2-3 are 1-2-X at 1C.
Race 5: 1-2-3 are 1-2-3 at 1C.
Race 6: 1-2-3 are 3-X-1 at 1C.
Race 7: 1-2-3 are 2-1-3 at 1C.
Race 8: 1-2-3 are 1-2-X at 1C.
Race 9: 1-2-3 are 1-X-X at 1C.
That's actually very impressive. :ThmbUp:


here's the Youtube video of the pace projector for anyone who hasn't seen it:

ACJTXAxavLE

[Capper Al]

Sure, it is difficult, and nobody will be right all the time.

I think today was pretty represntative of how the Pace Projector performs:

Race 1: 1-2-3 are 1-2-3 at 1C.
Race 3: 1-2-3 are 2-X-X at 1C.
Race 4: 1-2-3 are 1-2-X at 1C.
Race 5: 1-2-3 are 1-2-3 at 1C.
Race 6: 1-2-3 are 3-X-1 at 1C.
Race 7: 1-2-3 are 2-1-3 at 1C.
Race 8: 1-2-3 are 1-2-X at 1C.
Race 9: 1-2-3 are 1-X-X at 1C.

Out of 8 races, we had the leader right five times and in top three 7/8 times. We had the top three correct 17 out of 24. We also had the top two correct and in order 50% of the time.

3 Races designated Favors Horses On/Near Early Lead

R1: 1-2 horses at 1C finished in reverse order, $45 exacta.
R4: Leader won easily at 7-2.
R7: 2-3 horses early run 1-2, $70 exacta

All the horses above were identified as being on/near the lead.

0 Races designated Hot Pace.

That's good day at the track. I'm now looking at Belmont's Saturday card if you are interested?

[cj]

That's good day at the track. I'm now looking at Belmont's Saturday card if you are interested?

Sure, but I'll be looking tonight/tomorrow AM, not today.

[Tom]

One of my favorite things we're doing with Craig's toolbox is adjusting race fractions (in running lines) for the speed of the track. You guys can tell me if it's been offered in any product before. In our case, the user has the option of choosing the official Equibase fractions OR "adjusted" fractions that take into account how fast or slow the track was that day. Simply click on a running line, and choose adjusted or official fractions. We're still refining the process but it's a really great way to tell if a horse is getting into condition or not--you can see how his fractions compare to recent fractions he ran in other races. Among other uses.


So if I click on adjusted, I will see fractional times that are adjusted to use track-track, as is, so say a Belmont line and a Gulfstream line could be compared directly? That would be a huge advantage. I converted CJ figs to times so I could enter them into my velocity program and it worked more than very well.

[cj]

So if I click on adjusted, I will see fractional times that are adjusted to use track-track, as is, so say a Belmont line and a Gulfstream line could be compared directly? That would be a huge advantage. I converted CJ figs to times so I could enter them into my velocity program and it worked more than very well.

Yes, that is exactly it. All "adjusted times" are set to "Mythical Downs" and can be compared across tracks, distances, and surfaces. A 22 is faster than a 23 whether the last 1/4 of a 1 1/2m turf race or the first 1/4 of a 5f dash.

[iceknight]

nice work CJ and nice call Robert Fischer!

[PhantomOnTour]

Y'all picked a doozy for one of today's giveaway races - the 7th at Bel.
Very nice race.

My top fig goes to the #8 Smokin Candy (his last race) who sits at 5-1 ML.
My personal "pace projector" shows a muddled early picture btw the 2-3-5, in that order.

BTW - the adjusted fractions feature is very cool, and something that interests me a lot :ThmbUp:

[cj]

Y'all picked a doozy for one of today's giveaway races - the 7th at Bel.
Very nice race.

My top fig goes to the #8 Smokin Candy (his last race) who sits at 5-1 ML.
My personal "pace projector" shows a muddled early picture btw the 2-3-5, in that order.

BTW - the adjusted fractions feature is very cool, and something that interests me a lot :ThmbUp:

Going to look at the card from here on out today. The first 4 looked like 3 maiden races with horses that haven't run much at all, and a race with a can't lose chalk.

[PhantomOnTour]

Going to look at the card from here on out today. The first 4 looked like 3 maiden races with horses that haven't run much at all, and a race with a can't lose chalk.
Race 3?
I bet your pace projector had the #3 out there early - I played him as the odds grew and grew...bet him at 8-1 and he crossed the wire at 16-1 in 2nd place...nice tri payoff

[cj]

I'm not sure, think it may have picked the 2 in front with the 3 nearby.

I'm starting with the 6th, 5th is much like the others.

[PhantomOnTour]

I'm not sure, think it may have picked the 2 in front with the 3 nearby.

I'm starting with the 6th, 5th is much like the others.
I have been a House On Toilsome sucker in the past, but I will let the best closer in this field beat me today if she's good enough.
Right now I like the #7 Speedy's Gal at 8-1 odds.

sorry CJ - didn't mean to make this a POT picks thread.

[cj]

Pace Projector:
3-4,9 (Tie) (Fast Pace)

Top last speed figure on surface:
4(87) 7(86) 8(72)

[cj]

I have been a House On Toilsome sucker in the past, but I will let the best closer in this field beat me today if she's good enough.
Right now I like the #7 Speedy's Gal at 8-1 odds.

sorry CJ - didn't mean to make this a POT picks thread.

No worries, good discussion, just like to keep the TimeformUS stuff a part of it.

[hracingplyr]

Looks like the 2 has an 86 also

[cj]

Yes, but that was two races back. Like I said yesterday, I'm not trying to say the last figure is that important, just giving a summary.

The 6 ran an 87 two back also.

[BetHorses!]

I'll play along

Race 6 My power numbers are 6 7 4 1

Will key #7 9-1

[Zydeco]

Pace Projector:
3-4,9 (Tie) (Fast Pace)

Top last speed figure on surface:
4(87) 7(86) 8(72)
did it really just finish :4: - :7: - :8: ?? lol

yes it did. Good job CJ!

[BetHorses!]

did it really just finish :4: - :7: - :8: ?? lol


Yes we are used to that with his numbers.

[PhantomOnTour]

did it really just finish :4: - :7: - :8: ?? lol

yes it did. Good job CJ!
Pace and speed figures work very well sometimes...and a nice score was had :ThmbUp:

The Timeform Pace Proj has this #3 way out there in their featured 7th race at Bel....rails at 18ft...could be dangerous with that sprint speed.

[hracingplyr]

CJ. In the fast pp's what does the F stand for under the post position? See things like F6, F8, ......

[PhantomOnTour]

CJ. In the fast pp's what does the F stand for under the post position? See things like F6, F8, ......
P6
F8

means he broke from the 6 hole in an 8 horse field...F = field size

[cj]

Pace Projector:
3-4,9 (Tie) (Fast Pace)

Top last speed figure on surface:
4(87) 7(86) 8(72)

6-4-7 early. Turned out more an honest pace, and finished 4-7 as the last out figures ruled the roost.

3 didn't show much speed after showing it often sprinting on dirt. Can't always figure out the jock factor.

[cj]

Pace Projector:
3-4-10

Top last speed figure on surface:
8 (93) 4 (92) 3(87)

[speed]

They sucked me in on the 4. Thinking he should be better in Jacobson barn. He wins and i'm dining at SRU downs. Heard the lobster is off the chain.

[PhantomOnTour]

Bel R7 - sadly, I think the bettors have this one figured out...don't see much value unless the Timeform Pace Projector gets this #3 the easy lead it shows and he runs on.

[PhantomOnTour]

So what's the case for the winner, #1 at 7-1?

I guess it's Junior Alvarado - who gets on this guy when he's ready to run well.
3yr old ran well in his first try vs winners and improved with his winning jock back up....nice price at 7-1 but I used him underneath only.

[cj]

3-4-5 after the 1/2, finished 1-4-8. Didn't have much to recommend on the 1, think the jocks were a little foolish pressing the 3 so early and it cost them late.

[PhantomOnTour]

Thx again for the race previews - love these discussions with sharp players.
It's not often that we get CJ's slant on things for free.

[Zydeco]

3-4-5 after the 1/2, finished 1-4-8. Didn't have much to recommend on the 1, think the jocks were a little foolish pressing the 3 so early and it cost them late.

I know its a small sample but pace projector seems to be pretty good. I like it.

[Zydeco]

Thx again for the race previews - love these discussions with sharp players.
It's not often that we get CJ's slant on things for free.

Agree phantom.

[cj]

Pace Projector:
1,2(tie)-4 (Favors Horses On/Near Early Lead)

Top last speed figure on surface:
3 (102) 7 (98) 1 (96)

[speed]

They sucked me in on the 4. Thinking he should be better in Jacobson barn. He wins and i'm dining at SRU downs. Heard the lobster is off the chain.
Ends up being dinner at steak and shake with Whiffle Wizz. :lol:

[cj]

Ends up being dinner at steak and shake with Whiffle Wizz. :lol:

He was probably best, not Rosario's finest ride. Even he can't get them all perfect.

[speed]

He was probably best, not Rosario's finest ride. Even he can't get them all perfect.
Agreed, I mumbled to myself a bit into the turn. Bad part is i singled him in a few pools.

[Zydeco]

CJ,,,is pace predictor based on what is left to run or the first fractions? i.e. sprint first quarter or with a 1/4 left to run? Thank you.

[cj]

Pace Projector:
1,2(tie)-4 (Favors Horses On/Near Early Lead)

Top last speed figure on surface:
3 (102) 7 (98) 1 (96)

1-5-2 early, finished 7-2-5.

[cj]

CJ,,,is pace predictor based on what is left to run or the first fractions? i.e. sprint first quarter or with a 1/4 left to run? Thank you.

Races less the 1 mile are projceted after 1/4 mile has been run, and > 1 mile are projected after 1/2 mile has been run.

[Zydeco]

Races less the 1 mile are projceted after 1/4 mile has been run, and > 1 mile are projected after 1/2 mile has been run.

Thank you

[cj]

Pace Projector:
5-2-10

Top last speed figure on surface:
5 (80) 10 (55) 2,4 (50)

5 has two more recent races on turf, 73 two back and a 56 last out.

[cj]

Pace Projector:
5-2-10

Top last speed figure on surface:
5 (80) 10 (55) 2,4 (50)

5 has two more recent races on turf, 73 two back and a 56 last out.

2-8-7 early, finished 8-2-4.

The 5 had big negatives all over him as the heavy favorite.

[cj]

This is an example of where the adjusted fractions come in handy.

The 5 horse ran this 2 back:

23.18
47.52
1:12.92

The horse was claimed for 25k (rare for a MCL race) and ran back for the same price. He didn't race for 58 days (bad sign). Then, he ran slower at every call and was really backing up despite being in the same class and running slower early. (another bad sign)

23.93 (0.75 slower)
47.93 (0.41 slower)
1:13.25 (0.33 slower)
1:28.36

Now he dropped to 16k (another bad sign). No way was this a positive scenario. Sure, these kind win sometimes, but at very low odds they are worth standing against at times.

[arno]

Very easy to see him backing up when one uses the incremental splits which is a nice feature in TimeformUS.

Some at the track asked me where all my CJ printouts were?
I answered I now have an IPAD and more info.. Soon to have more of CJ's info.

[PICSIX]

That's good day at the track. I'm now looking at Belmont's Saturday card if you are interested?

Pace projection before scratches & assuming turf races stay on:

Race 1: (5-1-2)
---------1
-------2
----------5

Race 2: (5-11-8)
------------5
------8
------11

Race 3: (11-2-10)
--------2
------10
-------------11

Race 4: (4-1-7)
----------1
-----------4
---------7

Race 5: (9-8-5)
---------5
----------8
------------9

Race 6: (10-1-4)
-----------1
----------4
------------10

Race 7: (3-7-4)
-------------3
-------4
----------7

Race 8: (1-9-7)
-----------1
---------7
----------9

Race 9: (3-1-2)
----------1
---------2
--------------3

Race 10: (3-6-5)
-------------3
----------5
-----------6

Race 11: (7-9-11)
------------------7
------------9
-------11