PDA

View Full Version : Michigan ADWs Gone?


michiken
06-29-2013, 11:41 PM
Went to the track today and two people told me that Twinspires closed there accounts and sent them a check for their balances. They said it was some Michigan law. Anyone else get the boot?

the clocker
06-30-2013, 01:33 AM
Same here...booted out of RaceUwin with check sent to me...I can not find any information on the internet why this has happened...but the President of RaceUwin said the following in an email to me.."

Hi Gary,

Give me a call. That's was not our decision. Your state legislature and Atty. Gen. sent the online companies cease-and-desist letters saying that they would no longer allow Michigan residents to wager online. This is much to our dismay! and came abruptly and out of nowhere and left us no opportunity. We did try to protest this thru legal grounds but the Atty. Gen. in your state denied the request.


My understanding is that you can thank the Michigan lottery people for forcing this denial. They felt that online horse racing was Competing with them, and they screwed everything up for everybody in your state.


You can certainly lobby your state Atty. Gen. for a change to their opinion, but until then, the only legal way around this is if a member has a second vacation home in another state, that would qualify as a legal alternative.


As you know by now, I play by the rules.

You might also want to put the same information out in the blogs, and perhaps get a ground level support for changing the Michigan legal ruling. But until then, any online company with integrity will no longer accept Michigan residents. If they are currently accepting residents, you have to question their integrity. Because it is a blatant Violation of a legal ruling. And you risk losing your money if you deposit with a company serving Michigan, because I can assure you that they all received cease and desist orders.

Please feel free to contact me anytime. And thank you so much for your loyalty, your great comments about us online, and for your business. We truly, truly appreciate it


Robert Holmes"


I have a feeling that this is going to be it for legal ADW's here in Michigan...the casinos and lottery should be very happy as they continue to put the squeeze on the wallets of Michiganders...our State government once again has stuck it's head into the ground as they walk around with thumbs up their ass's clueless to what goes on in the real world...as my late father..$$2DAD2$$ once said..."That's the way the mop flops"

Capper Al
06-30-2013, 10:15 AM
This is bad news. This may force me into early retirement so I could relocate.

Longshot6977
06-30-2013, 12:05 PM
Let's hope there will eventually be a happy ending like Illinois. Good luck to you Michiganders.

JustCoolGene
06-30-2013, 12:17 PM
This morning, I spoke with TwinSpires, DarkHorseBet, Premier Turf Club, and AMwager. All four ADW's said they were taking bets from Michigan Customers.

They all said there is absolutely no issues whatsoever pertaining to Michigan customers.

Gene
ScratchManager.com

Longshot6977
06-30-2013, 01:32 PM
This morning, I spoke with TwinSpires, DarkHorseBet, Premier Turf Club, and AMwager. All four ADW's said they were taking bets from Michigan Customers.

They all said there is absolutely no issues whatsoever pertaining to Michigan customers.

Gene
ScratchManager.com

Well that was a quick happy ending, if true. But clearly, the communications broke down somewhere with the conflicting posts.

Jeff P
06-30-2013, 01:43 PM
From what I can tell the Michigan Atty General's Office is sending letters to ADWs ordering them to cease and desist doing business with Michigan residents. At this point, it is not clear to me whether or not the order to cease and desist is backed by an actual statute outlawing ADW wagering or if this is more of a scare tactic at the request of some entity (as has happened in other states.)

Once I know more I'll post an update.


-jp

.

Jeff P
06-30-2013, 02:42 PM
Michigan passed a law in 2012 prohibiting internet purchase of lottery tickets. Lottery commission has been beating up AG to make sure ADWs have same restriction...

Link to Michigan Legislative Website:
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%28fuhpsw55zbel4a554q5fngen%29%29/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=2012-SB-1003

Text Version of Senate Bill 1003:
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2011-2012/billintroduced/Senate/htm/2012-SIB-1003.htm

(4) The commissioner shall not allow tickets or shares in the state lottery to be sold over the internet.




-jp

.

highnote
06-30-2013, 07:17 PM
This is similar to what I wrote about "Rent Seekers" in this post:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=104406

Rent Seekers are companies in an industry that try to keep out competition through the use of government and regulation. The "Rent Seekers" create zero economic value and are actually harmful to the economy as they stifle innovation and efficiency.

Of course, ADWs, racetracks and horseman's groups are just as guilty of being Rent Seekers because they have used government and regulation to keep betting exchanges from operating in this country.

Personally, if I was a non-Michigan ADW I would step up my efforts to get Michigan customers using the philosophy "Ask for forgiveness later rather than permission now."

Lasix67
06-30-2013, 09:34 PM
Arizona, Texas, Illinois, now Michigan. Now I know that things have been straightened out recently in Illinois, however what is the freaking problem? We are adults and there doesn't seem to be a problem with the proliferation of casino gaming and the inevitable online version. Oh yeah, that's the problem, duh.

Jeff P
06-30-2013, 11:30 PM
The problem as I see it that we horseplayers are too complacent. The number of us willing to undergo the TAKE ACTION part of making a difference are too few in number.

The following states (just off the top of my head) all have ADW restrictions written into state law:

California - population 38 million - 6.5% ADW source market fee (per state law) imposed on California residents - leaves zero room margin-wise for ADWs to rebate back anything to California residents - yet California tracks happily import out of state rebated handle into their pools. (In all fairness to the CHRB and TOC, rebates became available to CA residents last year provided a min handle threshold of $1 mil annually is met. However rebates offered to CA residents are capped at approx 1/2 the percentage rate of those offered to residents who reside in other states.)

Texas - population 26 million - ADW wagering for Texas residents banned per state law - yet Texas tracks happily import out of state rebated handle into their pools.

Illinois - population 12.8 million - Arlington Park recently reported in their online newsletter that the Illinois Thoroughbred Horsemen's Assaciation had lobbied successfully to kill several new bills that would have reinstated ADW wagering for IL residents - Yet all the while Illinois tracks were happily importing out of state rebated handle into their pools. (IL finally did get a state law on the books to allow ADW wagering again. HOWEVER, restrictions remain in place that limit ADW choices open to IL residents as well as restrictions that make it very difficult for the typical IL player to earn rebates on his or her handle.)

New Jersey- population 8.8 million - ADW wagering for NJ residents allowed through TVG/NJBets only. (Think state sponsored monopoly.)

Virginia - population 8 million - 10% ADW source market fee (per state law) imposed on VA residents - leaves zero room margin-wise for ADWs to rebate back anything to VA residents - yet Colonial Downs happily imports out of state rebated handle into their pools.

Washington - population 6.9 million - 7% ADW source market fee (per state law) imposed on WA residents - leaves zero room margin-wise for ADWs to rebate back anything to WA residents - yet Emerald Downs happily imports out of state rebated handle into their pools.

Arizona - population 6.5 million - ADW wagering for AZ residents is a FELONY per state law - yet Turf Paradise happily imports out of state rebated handle into their pools.

100+ million people in those states alone - out of (what?) 315 million in the US that now have their ADW choices curtailed by state law?

---------------------

In each of the above cases, lobbyists paid for by horsemen and track management worked quietly and behind the scenes to get bills written and signed that effectively curtailed or banned outright the player's ability to bet through an ADW.

---------------------

I am being told NY may be next... that language imposing a 5% tax on all handle bet by NY residents through out of state ADWs was recently added at the last minute to an expanded gaming bill slated to be on the ballot this November. (Courtesy of the NY horsemen and OTBs.)

---------------------

Until or unless players in numbers decide to stand up and make a difference - and give SIGNIFICANT PUSHBACK every time horsemen and/or track management tries to enact new anti player legislation - expect to see the list of states with ADW restrictions continue to grow.



-jp

.

Jeff P
06-30-2013, 11:50 PM
Arizona, Texas, Illinois, now Michigan. Now I know that things have been straightened out recently in Illinois, however what is the freaking problem? We are adults and there doesn't seem to be a problem with the proliferation of casino gaming and the inevitable online version. Oh yeah, that's the problem, duh.
What do racing's decision makers think is going to happen to their market share once the inevitable happens (when online casino gaming finally does become reality?)

I mean think about it... If customer choices are:

A.) Online blackjack at 1%-2% vig through Harrahs.com.
B.) Online baccarat at 1%-2% vig through Ceasars.com.
C.) Online slots at 6% vig though Harrahs or Ceasars.
D.) A field of 5 or 6 horses running around in a circle at 22% vig through Twinspires but only if the customer is able to prove he lives in one of the four remaining states where online betting on horses is still allowed?...

Seriously, what do they think is going to happen?





-jp

.

highnote
07-01-2013, 01:41 AM
What do racing's decision makers think is going to happen to their market share once the inevitable happens (when online casino gaming finally does become reality?)

Seriously, what do they think is going to happen?



Racing has maybe 20 or 30 years remaining if it stays on the current trajectory. I see a lot of consolidation coming as more tracks are forced out of business due to lack of innovation. Bay Meadows and Hollywood Park come to mind.

The casinos and the tracks are both "rent seekers". Both are trying to grow their share of the market by spending money buying politicians and regulation. Neither is interested in competing and growing market share by being innovative. The casinos will win this fight.

Who really cares if racing goes the way of dinosaurs? The grandstands are empty most of the time. Young people are not interested in racing. There are so many interesting things to do in the world, why spend time dealing with a dying industry?

Longshot6977
07-01-2013, 10:27 AM
The problem as I see it that we horseplayers are too complacent. The number of us willing to undergo the TAKE ACTION part of making a difference are too few in number.
---------------------
Until or unless players in numbers decide to stand up and make a difference - and give SIGNIFICANT PUSHBACK every time horsemen and/or track management tries to enact new anti player legislation - expect to see the list of states with ADW restrictions continue to grow.

I was under the impression that HANA was the voice of the people. What shall we be doing to TAKE ACTION and give SIGNIFICANT PUSHBACK?

What can we do when, like you say, horsemen and track management work quitely behind the scenes to get their way?

And what did casino players actually do, if anything, to make their voice be heard and get their way?
If the states don't like the horseracing industry, they will use their powers to gain the maximum benefits from it and it all seems to be about the finances. I ask these questions in all seriousness.

JustRalph
07-01-2013, 12:00 PM
The only effective action is to boycott the sport.

Players have proven they are unwilling to do that except on a very small scale.


We get only what we allow. And we voluntarily take it.

Robert Goren
07-01-2013, 01:22 PM
The only effective action is to boycott the sport.

Players have proven they are unwilling to do that except on a very small scale.


We get only what we allow. And we voluntarily take it.Any change is going to have come at the voting booth, When we find that rare candidate that is friendly to us bettors, we have to vote for them whether or not we like them on other issues. otherwise we are doomed. We can not outspend them on lobbying efforts. Internet poker players are finding that out now. We must become one issue voters. When we are large enough to swing elections then we will get action. The horse people have the money to buy votes, but we have the numbers to vote out the politicians who were bought off in a close election. But we have to use that power and I have seen no willingness to do it. So expect more screwing of the handicapper.

highnote
07-01-2013, 01:38 PM
The only effective action is to boycott the sport.

Players have proven they are unwilling to do that except on a very small scale.


We get only what we allow. And we voluntarily take it.

What racing in Michigan can horseplayers boycott? Are there any pari-mutuel betting opportunities in Michigan?

When the Michigan Racing Commission was integrated with the Michigan Gaming Board in 2010 it was no longer a stand-alone entity. That was pretty much the end racing as far as I can tell.

This URL gives a good summary of MI gaming:

http://gaming.unlv.edu/abstract/mi_main.html

It's all about the casinos. Racing looks like it is dead in The Great Lakes State.

Jeff P
07-01-2013, 09:04 PM
What can we do when, like you say, horsemen and track management work quitely behind the scenes to get their way?


What can you do?

You ask yourself if the cause is just. And if, after careful reflection you see the cause as just, you fight the good fight (even if the deck is stacked against you.)

For those of you who may not be aware, SB 1072 was co authored by the TOC and the CHRB, was supported by all of California's race tracks, and was signed into law by California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger in late September 2010.

This is the bill that raised the takeout on exotic wagers at California thoroughbred tracks from 20.68% to 22.68% for 2 horse bets and from 20.68% to 23.68% for bets involving 3 or more horses. This is the bill that gave Santa Anita, Del Mar, and Hollywood Park the highest exacta takeouts in North America among major thoroughbred tracks.

Shortly after the bill was signed, players began floating the idea to HANA of organizing a boycott. We surveyed HANA membership and the idea was approved. If I recall correctly the margin in favor of a boycott was about 2-1.

As part of the legwork in getting the boycott off the ground I began emailing other players. The gist of those emails was telling players what tracks we were boycotting and why and from there asking for help getting the word out to more players. As fate would have it, some of the players on my email list were well known because they had authored books and written articles about racing and betting. I am not going to name names in this post, but I have to tell you I was disappointed when some of those "names" wrote back to tell me they were not willing to even write about the boycott (pro or con.)

That's not to say name players didn't help. Again, I am not going to name names, but there were several "names" who took action and helped out in a big way.

Keep in mind that HANA's war chest has never exceeded more than a few thousand dollars... whereas (I'm guessing) the combined war chest of Santa Anita, Del Mar, Hollywood Park, Golden Gate, the CHRB, and the TOC may run well into 9 figures.

Yet, when the boycott was launched it was effective enough that within the first 30 days track management and horsemen began asking to meet with us. We attended a series of meetings where we were asked by track management and horsemen for ideas and suggestions - what they could do better to earn our business and why.

Sadly, the only suggestion they took us up on was implementing a low takeout pick5. By the way, that move appears to have worked out well for them financially:
http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2013/04/california-racing-update.html

What did I learn from all this?

In my opinion, the boycott would have been a whole lot more effective had more of the "names" decided to take action and write about it.

But what do you do when the obvious leaders in your circle decide not to get involved?

Answer: You decide whether or not the cause is just. And if you deem the cause to be just: You fight the good fight and give it the best effort you can.

In the end, we had somewhere between 30 and 50 players doing the actual heavy lifting: writing articles, creating Facebook and Twitter pages, going on talk radio, sending out emails, telling other players what tracks we were boycotting and why, etc. - while thousands took no action and simply sat on the sidelines and watched.

California exacta takeout is the same today as the day we began boycotting. In my opinion it so high that it is out of line relative to exacta takeout at other major tracks:

18.50% AQU-BEL-SAR
19.00% CDX-KEE
19.00% MTH
20.00% GPX
22.68% HOL-SAX-DMR-GGX

Looking back, I can't help but think the cause was just. Had we found a way to get enough players to take action I have very little doubt the exacta takeout would have been rolled back to previous levels. Had that happened I also have very little doubt their total revenue would be higher than current levels and that their purses would be higher too.

You asked: What can you do?

The next time you hear about players rallying around a cause ask yourself if the cause is just. If, after careful reflection, you see the cause as just: Don't sit on the sidelines hoping for the best. Take action.



-jp

.

Robert Goren
07-01-2013, 10:58 PM
But CA is going to have one less track next year.

Capper Al
07-02-2013, 10:44 AM
Spoke with TVG yesterday. They claim that Michigan just passed a bill making ADW legal. I'll verify this later, but TVG wouldn't take money from Michigan before this.

baconswitchfarm
07-02-2013, 11:41 AM
They sent a letter to the track I play at , which also has phone wagering. Michigan ordered them to close all Michigan based accounts as it now violated their state law.

Muddy
07-02-2013, 03:02 PM
My account is still open @ T.S. I bet last night.

mannyberrios
07-02-2013, 10:28 PM
But CA is going to have one less track next year.
What does that have to do with this topic