Australian Racing

[DigitalDownsJoe]

Anyone understand the odds board at the Aussie tracks? If you look there is a odds, and a movers board or something. I was just curious if anyone had some tips for things to look for. I been getting lucky betting .20 supers there on TS but wondered why the odds jump so drastic at the end, and what that movers odds thing was. I bet horses @12-1 and see them drop to 4 or 5 to one in the last 30 seconds..Its all kinda crazy, I can read the forums and pretty much understand the handicapping system they use, but was looking for someone who had an angle with the tote boards..Thanks in advance

[davew]

Here is my take on it - I may be way off, but tried to find out about it a couple years ago. Australian Racing available in North America is a separate A, B, (C) track pool being run from an Australian feed. I think the pool is being run out of Oregon, but not sure. The tracks in Australian are all turf and only run for a few days every few weeks.

If you were actually in Australia, you can bet with bookies at fixed odds. These odds move during the day similar to Vegas lines on pro sports with more than anticipated action/bets on one interest. They also have parimutual at the location. The market mover is horse that made largest percentage drop in odds before the race.

The giant swings and changes we see in North America (NA) are because 1) relatively small pools, 2) all bets coming from offsite to central location (most bets made in last 5 mtp from around the world) and 3) some computer betters that are using arbitrage between NA pool and what is happening in Australia with bookies.

Their odds are return for $1 bet - 4.5 would return $4.50/dollar there

[duncan04]

there are a few Australian synthetic tracks now

[DigitalDownsJoe]

That really helps thanks. I was thinking that must be the case with the odds move. The ML odds are pretty fair in these races, and I will often see the ML fav at 10/1 with 2 mins to post. I throw 50 on it, and when the race goes off he is 3 or 4 to one..Either the pools are really small or others are thinking the same thing. LOL I mainly bet jockeys and horses getting weight allowance in the longer races. The weight(inside pp) usually fairs better at he sprints at most tracks. Also they have a couple extra ground conditions(dead etc) which really need to be looked at when betting these horses.

[DigitalDownsJoe]

Has this fixed odds betting ever been tested in the states at a track for like a whole meet etc? I know they do it for the KD and BC etc.

[Some_One]

Theres little money in the American pools, so when all the money comes in late, it jumps all the odds, use tab.com.au to see the Aussie pools to get an ideal of what the prices will be.

[wiffleball whizz]

There is now Aussie A,B, and the new C.....

I haven't seen it since last time I was in Connecticut but when I'm betting it im buried.....and they don't exactly rush to pay you either

[rcknhrse]

there are web sites that show the betting in australia.
tabtouch is the best IMHO
the pattern has been clear for years.
sharpies in america bet a horse early to draw away from the horses betting in australia.Then cancel their wagers and get on 1 of the action horses on the aussie tote
if you go to the aussie tote you can predict which horses are going to get hit late
because they have been bet early in australia

[dkithore]

Your observation has merit. I regularly play Aussie racing and TS pools are small so smart guys do just what you said. Thay know what the Aussied Market Mover is and then change their bets accordingly. Once in a while you benefit when the crowd goes right and you left. Your horse wins and pays off higher than you expected. It happens to me at least once a day on average. So, now I don't worry when odds jump all over the place in last 2 min. I stay with my spot of 5-1 and 10-1 range. Today, a 10-1 dropped to 5/2 and then backed up to 3-1. so be it. I accept because not much u can do about that.

[comet52]

I think they run it out of Hastings at Vancouver, BC, not Oregon.

[comet52]

Oh and it's Melbourne Cup day next Monday night, can't wait.

[Some_One]

Great card Friday night as well

[Vigorish]

I think they run it out of Hastings at Vancouver, BC, not Oregon.

Greetings,

I performed an exhaustive search trying to find where the signal originated and what the takeout was for various wagers. Multiple ADW's, including Twinspires, where unable to locate the information. Finally, I got the correct information through Australian Racing.

I have played Australian Racing for three years, mainly tiny exactas, looking for market inefficiencies. The large fields are a huge bonus. Unfortunately, the takeout is horrid except for WPS. Anyway, three weeks ago I wrote Australian Racing and they responded with up-to-date and accurate info on their takeout and hub.

"Greetings Jeffrey,

We’re glad to hear you enjoy the Australian Racing product, and apologize that you haven’t been able to get through to anyone regarding the takeout structure.

Woodbine does indeed hub our international pools, and their takeout structure for our racing according to CPMA rules is as follows:

WPS: 16.80%
Quin/Exa: 24.80%
Superfecta: 26.30%
Trifecta: 27.80%
PK3: 26.30%
PK4: 26.30%

I hope this answers your query, and feel free to contact us with any questions regarding Australian Racing in the future.


Best of luck on the punt,

<snipped>
<snipped>@australianracing.com

[olddaddy]

Greetings,


"Greetings Jeffrey,

We’re glad to hear you enjoy the Australian Racing product, and apologize that you haven’t been able to get through to anyone regarding the takeout structure.

Woodbine does indeed hub our international pools, and their takeout structure for our racing according to CPMA rules is as follows:

WPS: 16.80%
Quin/Exa: 24.80%
Superfecta: 26.30%
Trifecta: 27.80%
PK3: 26.30%
PK4: 26.30%

I hope this answers your query, and feel free to contact us with any questions regarding Australian Racing in the future.


Best of luck on the punt,

<snipped>
<snipped>@australianracing.com

I have been wondering about this also and couldnt find the info so thanks. I assume Japan racing has a similar take. Knowing the different takes from all international racing would be useful but dont know how to get it. Hana only shows n. america take outs.

[Some_One]

Japan horse racing is through Woodbine as well, their details/info was on the last page of the free pdf from last weekends racing (note this weekend is the Japan Cup).

[olddaddy]

Japan horse racing is through Woodbine as well, their details/info was on the last page of the free pdf from last weekends racing (note this weekend is the Japan Cup).

Is this on the japan racing site?

[Some_One]

The PP's I get are from HPI (Woodbine), however I don't think they would add their info to the end of the PP's, they don't do it for Aussie racing for example.

[olddaddy]

This is all I can find

http://www.woodbineentertainment.com/woodbine/betting/rulesregulations/Pages/CanadianThoroughbredRulesRegulations.aspx


These takes dont coincide which was previously posted by another poster who got his info from Australian racing.

[menifee]

Greetings,

I performed an exhaustive search trying to find where the signal originated and what the takeout was for various wagers. Multiple ADW's, including Twinspires, where unable to locate the information. Finally, I got the correct information through Australian Racing.

I have played Australian Racing for three years, mainly tiny exactas, looking for market inefficiencies. The large fields are a huge bonus. Unfortunately, the takeout is horrid except for WPS. Anyway, three weeks ago I wrote Australian Racing and they responded with up-to-date and accurate info on their takeout and hub.

"Greetings Jeffrey,

We’re glad to hear you enjoy the Australian Racing product, and apologize that you haven’t been able to get through to anyone regarding the takeout structure.

Woodbine does indeed hub our international pools, and their takeout structure for our racing according to CPMA rules is as follows:

WPS: 16.80%
Quin/Exa: 24.80%
Superfecta: 26.30%
Trifecta: 27.80%
PK3: 26.30%
PK4: 26.30%

I hope this answers your query, and feel free to contact us with any questions regarding Australian Racing in the future.


Best of luck on the punt,

<snipped>
<snipped>@australianracing.com

Thank you for the info. For years, I wondered about this. A few years back, the minimum for the super was a $1 play in the United States. In wide open Aussie races, you would see supers that seemed to pay more than the pool which made no sense and I often wondered who was hitting these supers. I now realize that the Canadians were playing those Aussie supers for .20 because Woodbine hosted and the Americans were playing for a $1. Wow, the American money was dead money in those super pools.

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/woodbine-20-cent-pick-4-s-superfectas-available-to-us-bettors/

[Vigorish]

Greetings Old Daddy,

I visited the WEG site and the takeout percentages listed make sense IF you add in all of their special surcharges, which amount to an additional 3.3%. I was confused my the inconsistency before I contacted Australian racing. However, by adding the additional 3.3% (4.3% for trifectas), you should get the same figures.

"Horsepeople receive a further 2% on all wagers, except triactor wagering where it is 4%. The Ontario Provincial Government retains 0.5% on all bets placed in Ontario. The Canadian Government (through a revolving fund cost recovery basis) retains 0.8% on all wagers placed in Canada for the provision of drug control, photo-finish, video patrol and audit services."

[Vigorish]

Thank you for the info. For years, I wondered about this. A few years back, the minimum for the super was a $1 play in the United States. In wide open Aussie races, you would see supers that seemed to pay more than the pool which made no sense and I often wondered who was hitting these supers. I now realize that the Canadians were playing those Aussie supers for .20 because Woodbine hosted and the Americans were playing for a $1. Wow, the American money was dead money in those super pools.

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/woodbine-20-cent-pick-4-s-superfectas-available-to-us-bettors/

Greetings Menifee,

I remember playing Australian racing (through Youbet) before they offered 20 cent superfectas (and later horizontals). The fact that Canadians could play in 20 cent denominations almost amounts to larceny. I rarely played superfectas because of the small pools and $1 minimum. Unfortunately, I am not surprised that our Canadian neighbors were given this hidden advantage. It was extremely common for one ticket to take down the whole pool (we're talking about superfecta pools that ranged from 2-5K most of the time). Having a 20 cent denomination for some of the players, without making this fact public, is outrageous. The hapless American player was being fleeced - but that doesn't surprise me given the way the industry treats its players.

[menifee]

Greetings Menifee,

I remember playing Australian racing (through Youbet) before they offered 20 cent superfectas (and later horizontals). The fact that Canadians could play in 20 cent denominations almost amounts to larceny. I rarely played superfectas because of the small pools and $1 minimum. Unfortunately, I am not surprised that our Canadian neighbors were given this hidden advantage. It was extremely common for one ticket to take down the whole pool (we're talking about superfecta pools that ranged from 2-5K most of the time). Having a 20 cent denomination for some of the players, without making this fact public, is outrageous. The hapless American player was being fleeced - but that doesn't surprise me given the way the industry treats its players.

You are absolutely right. It is outrageous. When my daughter was an infant 2007-08 time frame, I used to pull the night shift. There were 3 or 4 guys on here that I would play Australian racing with. In the races where there were 15-20 horses, you would often see one ticket scoop the tri or super pools. I used to try to put tickets together that would do this. I stopped playing the super because the payouts were so wacky. Now I know why. I cannot believe Woodbine or You Bet did not disclose that the Canadians had an inherent advantage.

[Some_One]

Canadian players still can't play 10/20/50 cent tickets at most US tracks currently (I think Keeneland just allowed it for their most recent meet).

[olddaddy]

Thanks to both some one and vigorish for this info that I have been looking for for sometime. I sometime play japan and now realize that woodbine is letting its bettors in canada play small denominations for supers. It is a huge disadvantage for U.S. players mostly considering the small pool size and large fields. Pk3's are the same considering woodbine is probably taking .20 pk 3s.

[menifee]

I also stopped playing Australian racing because of this interesting story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcCoOYNIBZo

[Some_One]

Thanks to both some one and vigorish for this info that I have been looking for for sometime. I sometime play japan and now realize that woodbine is letting its bettors in canada play small denominations for supers. It is a huge disadvantage for U.S. players mostly considering the small pool size and large fields. Pk3's are the same considering woodbine is probably taking .20 pk 3s.

Why is it a disadvantage?

[Vigorish]

I also stopped playing Australian racing because of this interesting story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcCoOYNIBZo

Thanks for posting this video. I now have a newfound skepticism for the integrity of Australian racing. However, I think a compelling argument could be made that most of the races are clean. It is interesting that some of the jockeys were alleged to have defrauded the fraudsters, who overestimated the ability of one jockey to control the outcome of a race.

Many people view these scandals as an indictment of exchange wagering. However, I am still a proponent of exchange wagering as I am very skeptical that takeout will ever reduced to a reasonable level. Furthermore, I like the idea of being able to lock in odds before the race is ran. A central question that is raised by the video is whether or not one can successfully prosecute jockeys, who almost always avoid punishment due to the subjectivity of the charges as well as privacy laws that prevent intercepting private communications. Also, it appears Australia has some of the same issues we have with the lack of a centralized enforcement body. For example, they discussed the case of a suspended jockey who raced without sanction in a different state.

[Stillriledup]

Thanks for posting this video. I now have a newfound skepticism for the integrity of Australian racing. However, I think a compelling argument could be made that most of the races are clean. It is interesting that some of the jockeys were alleged to have defrauded the fraudsters, who overestimated the ability of one jockey to control the outcome of a race.

Many people view these scandals as an indictment of exchange wagering. However, I am still a proponent of exchange wagering as I am very skeptical that takeout will ever reduced to a reasonable level. Furthermore, I like the idea of being able to lock in odds before the race is ran. A central question that is raised by the video is whether or not one can successfully prosecute jockeys, who almost always avoid punishment due to the subjectivity of the charges as well as privacy laws that prevent intercepting private communications. Also, it appears Australia has some of the same issues we have with the lack of a centralized enforcement body. For example, they discussed the case of a suspended jockey who raced without sanction in a different state.

You might be skeptical of Aussie racing, but the only difference between their racing and American racing is that they actually try and prosecute the crooks...here, we stick them in the hall of fame and sweep all the rest of the stuff under the rug.

[olddaddy]

Why is it a disadvantage?

A .20 super can snag the whole pool for .20 cents. I have to play buck supers to snag the whole pool. The pools are small and I assume a lot of supers are snagged by 1 ticket.

[Vigorish]

A .20 super can snag the whole pool for .20 cents. I have to play buck supers to snag the whole pool. The pools are small and I assume a lot of supers are snagged by 1 ticket.

Excellent explanation of the benefits afforded to Canadian players in these small superfecta pools. A fair way of handling this situation would be to afford the lone winner a proportional amount of the pool (i.e. 1/5th of the pool after takeout). The payouts could have been indexed to $1 and the .20 wager would represent 1/5th of a winning wager. The remaining money would then be used to pay tickets with the most correct winners.

Unfortunately, it appears Woodbine gave Canadian players 5x their expected equity whenever there was one unique winner, which was a VERY common occurrence. I wouldn't be surprised if this arrangement was a cynical ploy by Woodbine management to keep more winnings in the hands of players betting through their windows.

[appistappis]

90% of the tracks that I can bet thru woodbine are u.s. based and offer .10 supers, .50 tri's pick 3's and 4's and all are dollar min here so i don't know what you guys are on about here. Also, when i hit a tri at indiana or keeneland and their takeout is 19% and woodbine's is 28%, they withhold the 9% difference.

Our choice of tracks where we can play .20 is very limited.

[Vigorish]

You might be skeptical of Aussie racing, but the only difference between their racing and American racing is that they actually try and prosecute the crooks...here, we stick them in the hall of fame and sweep all the rest of the stuff under the rug.

The lack of jockey scandals (excluding their personal problems with drugs, eating disorders, alcohol, and domestic violence) is very curious. It would be naive to think American jockeys are immune from corruption. If anything, I trust Australian racing more than the N. American product. For one thing, they don't allow race day medications and have more stringent rules on drug administration and testing (including the recent adoption of a zero tolerance rule on steroid use). The American horse industry, in arguing against exchange wagering, is quick to point out examples of corruption in the UK and Australia. As you intimated, you won't find corruption if you don't have the infrastructure or desire to look.

[Vigorish]

90% of the tracks that I can bet thru woodbine are u.s. based and offer .10 supers, .50 tri's pick 3's and 4's and all are dollar min here so i don't know what you guys are on about here. Also, when i hit a tri at indiana or keeneland and their takeout is 19% and woodbine's is 28%, they withhold the 9% difference.

Our choice of tracks where we can play .20 is very limited.

The situation I am referring to has hopefully been corrected for all N. American consumers of Australian racing. The 20 cent option has been available for quite a while. I use multiple online accounts and all of them currently allow customers to bet 20 cent superfectas and horizontals. Perhaps other posters can chime if they are forced to bet AUS superfectas in one dollar increments.

The biggest issue I have with the policy is a lack of disclosure. Had I known that I was competing against players who could take down the pot with a .20 cent wager, I would have completely avoided these pools. Fortunately, I probably spent less than $500 on these wagers before the availability of the 20 cent denomination. With respect to the extra takeout you pay on Keeneland, does Woodbine disclose that you're paying additional takeout (i.e. post Keeneland's payout as well as WEG's payout)? Also, is there any way you can get access the true payout through an ADW?

[maclr11]

Greetings Menifee,

I remember playing Australian racing (through Youbet) before they offered 20 cent superfectas (and later horizontals). The fact that Canadians could play in 20 cent denominations almost amounts to larceny. I rarely played superfectas because of the small pools and $1 minimum. Unfortunately, I am not surprised that our Canadian neighbors were given this hidden advantage. It was extremely common for one ticket to take down the whole pool (we're talking about superfecta pools that ranged from 2-5K most of the time). Having a 20 cent denomination for some of the players, without making this fact public, is outrageous. The hapless American player was being fleeced - but that doesn't surprise me given the way the industry treats its players.

What is outrageous is that Canadians have to play dollar wagers in American pools still. The fact that some states wont accomadate a tote system is ridiculous. Half of the tracks do now and half don't and it is confusing as all hell. So Americans have zero right to complain about three tracks when Canadians have to play dollar tickets into a lot of jurisdictions.
Try playing the Hollywood Park Pick 5 on a carryover day with a tough card and having to play a $1 wager.
Canadians cannot play the rainbow six because of the minimum wager etc. etc. If you want to take about horseplayers getting fleeced come up and try it up here. Australia is the least of the North American horseplayers worries when it comes to having a fair denomination for all players.

And to your answer no, the only legal ADWs in Canada is run through HorsePlayer Interactive which is run through Woodbine Entertianment Group, so no matter what you do players are given the higher takeout and have no access to a different payout.

[olddaddy]

90% of the tracks that I can bet thru woodbine are u.s. based and offer .10 supers, .50 tri's pick 3's and 4's and all are dollar min here so i don't know what you guys are on about here. Also, when i hit a tri at indiana or keeneland and their takeout is 19% and woodbine's is 28%, they withhold the 9% difference.

Our choice of tracks where we can play .20 is very limited.

I believe you can play .20 cent supers on japan racing, I can only play dollar supers, that was my point.

[dkithore]

I also stopped playing Australian racing because of this interesting story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcCoOYNIBZo
Very interesting. Thanks for the post.
Do you believe this is isolated to Australia only? My gut tells me otherwise. I think that it is more pervasive. My deduction is that money, greed and power are linked. and drug is also a universal phenomenon. So, we as horse players need to decide whether we can take horse racing (any sport) for serious gambling, IMO.

Look at the insider trading in stock market. Same old cheating to take advantage over others. It is inherent in human nature. But I did like Hong Kong racing's quick action on Chris Munce (Australian jockey) story.

[olddaddy]

What is outrageous is that Canadians have to play dollar wagers in American pools still. The fact that some states wont accomadate a tote system is ridiculous. Half of the tracks do now and half don't and it is confusing as all hell. So Americans have zero right to complain about three tracks when Canadians have to play dollar tickets into a lot of jurisdictions.
Try playing the Hollywood Park Pick 5 on a carryover day with a tough card and having to play a $1 wager.
Canadians cannot play the rainbow six because of the minimum wager etc. etc. If you want to take about horseplayers getting fleeced come up and try it up here. Australia is the least of the North American horseplayers worries when it comes to having a fair denomination for all players.

And to your answer no, the only legal ADWs in Canada is run through HorsePlayer Interactive which is run through Woodbine Entertianment Group, so no matter what you do players are given the higher takeout and have no access to a different payout.


I dont disagree with you but my point (and I think Vigorish also) was that we had no way of knowing that canadians had the advantage previously in austrailia and currently in japan. You knew the disadvantage and can choose not to play those U.S. pools, we werent given that information until now.

[davew]

I dont disagree with you but my point (and I think Vigorish also) was that we had no way of knowing that canadians had the advantage previously in austrailia and currently in japan. You knew the disadvantage and can choose not to play those U.S. pools, we werent given that information until now.


It should have been apparent when the pay-offs were higher than the pool, someone - somewhere had smaller than $1 bets available to them.

[olddaddy]

It should have been apparent when the pay-offs were higher than the pool, someone - somewhere had smaller than $1 bets available to them.


I know but we cant see super pools.