Increase in scratches

[Track Phantom]

Looking at the 8th race at MNR on 6-24-13. Fast track. 9 horses entered and 5 of them scratched.

Why? Why do so many horses scratch these days?

[Edward DeVere]

With all the tracks east o' the Mississippi, trainers and owners can always shop for a better spot. (Lesser competition, better post, etc.)

[DeltaLover]

Too much racing

[startngate]

The proliferation of scratches is caused by the following:

1) Too much racing in proximity. This is especially bad East of the Mississippi as Edward mentioned, where there are lots of tracks close to one another fueled by slots.
2) Owners and Trainers wanting to protect their win % by only running in spots where they think they can win.
3) Many tracks now scratch off the program instead of having a scratch time, so you are seeing scratches that you would normally not have seen.
4) Racing Officials letting anyone who wants to scratch out, with little to no penalty for doing so.

[Stillriledup]

The proliferation of scratches is caused by the following:

1) Too much racing in proximity. This is especially bad East of the Mississippi as Edward mentioned, where there are lots of tracks close to one another fueled by slots.
2) Owners and Trainers wanting to protect their win % by only running in spots where they think they can win.
3) Many tracks now scratch off the program instead of having a scratch time, so you are seeing scratches that you would normally not have seen.
4) Racing Officials letting anyone who wants to scratch out, with little to no penalty for doing so.

In response to #4, if you enter at SRU downs, you run. Period.

[johnhannibalsmith]

In response to #4, if you enter at SRU downs, you run. Period.

And then settle the lawsuit years and many dollars later.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/55581/chrb-jamgotchian-settle-longstanding-lawsuit

[5k-claim]

And then settle the lawsuit years and many dollars later.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/55581/chrb-jamgotchian-settle-longstanding-lawsuitCould you imagine this going to court and having SRU be one of those guys who decides to represent himself (and SRU Downs) in front of the judge? Live video stream, please!

:)

.

[Track Phantom]

Could you imagine this going to court and having SRU be one of those guys who decides to represent himself (and SRU Downs) in front of the judge? Live video stream, please!

:)

.

What is SRU Downs?

[Stillriledup]

What is SRU Downs?

Its a mythical track that i own and manage. :D

[Stillriledup]

And then settle the lawsuit years and many dollars later.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/55581/chrb-jamgotchian-settle-longstanding-lawsuit

That's where the signed waiver comes in. ;)

[BlueShoe]

On mornings on which a day at the OTB site is planned, just before leaving sit down at the computer and go to the Equibase site and get the scratches for as many of the tracks in my DRF as I can. When EB is late in posting them, go directly to the missing track website. Upon arrival, go to the SAM, drop in a voucher, and go through all the tracks again, plus the CA tracks that could not get at home. On days when several tracks around the nation are off the turf, there just might be as many as a hundred scratches total marked in my Form at all tracks combined. Just to get and mark the scratches takes time, then of course comes all your previous work down the drain, and having to cancel planned wagers and re-handicapping several races all over again.

Cannot prove it, but in the last few years there seems to be far more scratches, for whatever reason, and for sure more races taken off of the turf and transferred to the main than in previous years, thus even more scratches.

[johnhannibalsmith]

That's where the signed waiver comes in. ;)

And then reciprocally, an exception to the absolute insurer rule that I'm sure you will have. Even in the days when horses were stuck from time to time, I never understood how you could have a catch-all rule that demands under threat of penalty that a trainer always protect his horse from everything under any and all circustances and then tell him he can't scratch if he thinks (or even alleges to think) that it is in the horse's best interest to do so.

[Stillriledup]

And then reciprocally, an exception to the absolute insurer rule that I'm sure you will have. Even in the days when horses were stuck from time to time, I never understood how you could have a catch-all rule that demands under threat of penalty that a trainer always protect his horse from everything under any and all circustances and then tell him he can't scratch if he thinks (or even alleges to think) that it is in the horse's best interest to do so.

If a horse is injured/sick, the guy doesnt have to run, but i think that i would have some rules in place that suggest if you scratch 'sick/injured' the horse doesnt run for a stipulated amount of time to be determined at a later date. No double entering like they permit in NY.

[thespaah]

And then settle the lawsuit years and many dollars later.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/55581/chrb-jamgotchian-settle-longstanding-lawsuit
Yeah well that's California for ya. The state where one can sue and win because a person's neighbor farted.
And if one reads the story in full, the CHRB spokesman clearly stated it was a winnable case. The CHRB just did not have the funds to battle the plaintiff in court.
And had the Steward NOT threatened the owner and trainer, their suit would have been a loser.
I think all racing jurisdictions that have a thread of concern for the integrity of the fields in races, should in great haste enact regulations that prohibit frivolous scratches.

[Cannon shell]

If a horse is injured/sick, the guy doesnt have to run, but i think that i would have some rules in place that suggest if you scratch 'sick/injured' the horse doesnt run for a stipulated amount of time to be determined at a later date. No double entering like they permit in NY.
There are rules mandating a time period in which you cannot re-enter if scratched sick/injured. Some place 10 days, some 2 weeks.

In NY you cant double enter except for stakes w/o permission of the racing secretary.

[Cannon shell]

Yeah well that's California for ya. The state where one can sue and win because a person's neighbor farted.
And if one reads the story in full, the CHRB spokesman clearly stated it was a winnable case. The CHRB just did not have the funds to battle the plaintiff in court.
And had the Steward NOT threatened the owner and trainer, their suit would have been a loser.
I think all racing jurisdictions that have a thread of concern for the integrity of the fields in races, should in great haste enact regulations that prohibit frivolous scratches.
If racing officials force a trainer to run a horse against veterinarians advice and something were to happen the lawsuits would be never ending, starting with PETA

[Stillriledup]

There are rules mandating a time period in which you cannot re-enter if scratched sick/injured. Some place 10 days, some 2 weeks.

In NY you cant double enter except for stakes w/o permission of the racing secretary.

Do you think 10 days or 2 weeks is enough time? Why not make it 30 days, that way, guys will think twice about scratching because they dont like the spot or the field size.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...
And if one reads the story in full, the CHRB spokesman clearly stated it was a winnable case. The CHRB just did not have the funds to battle the plaintiff in court.
...

It may have been the case, it may not have been, but I'm not sure I'd take the word of the CHRB on it any more than I'd take JerryJam's gloating that he had slayed the great dragon known as the CHRB very seriously. He could barely claim a bad maiden for what he settled.

But, I have my doubts that anyone has authority to affirmatively dictate that you run a horse that you wish not to run. The rules everywhere clearly state that if you are to take one thing away from the book, it is that you are responsible for your horses' well-being and must protect them at all times. It's somewhat hard for me to imagine outside the realm of racetrack justice that anyone claiming to be acting with intent to follow that rule could be expected to adhere to both mutually exclusive mandates. Further in the article it expands on they way I've always believe to be the reality should anyone press it - ultimately they have the authority to punish for what you did or did not do, not to mandate what you do or do not do to avoid punishment.

[Cannon shell]

Do you think 10 days or 2 weeks is enough time? Why not make it 30 days, that way, guys will think twice about scratching because they dont like the spot or the field size.
Let me explain the reality of the situation because too much nonsense is being tossed out there.

1. Most horses are money losers.
2. Most owners lose money.
3. Most tracks are under increased scrutiny in regards to horse welfare.
4. Most owners choose trainers based on win percentage.
5. Most horses who are "stuck" in a race and more or less forced to run finish up the track often with the instructions given to the jock that mention "protecting the horse" aka don't try.

Not allowing a horse to run for 30 days because of a minor sickness or injury will cause more horses to lose money, more owners to leave and more guys trying number 5 in order to not get the 30 days. Is that better? You want to bet on a horse that isn't really trying? Or see more breakdowns or horses pulling up because the horse shouldnt have run?

There is no injury/sickness meter that you can stick up the horses ass and have it spit out the degree of sickness or injury. It is generally a fluid situation and I will always err on the side of caution not only because I want to protect my horse along with the other horses, jocks, etc but also because I don't want people betting on my horse of he is less than 100%. It isn't fair to anyone. Are there guys who will scratch excessively? Yup. I worked for Tom Skiffington when he was alive and no one was more willing to handicap the race and scratch and this was long before trainers win % because the golden number. But just like in real life you cant legislate everything.

I scratched a horse tonight because he hasn't run in a long time because of an injury and I didn't feel like running him on a sloppy track off of that long layoff was in his best interests. If someone has a problem with that, so be it.

[Stillriledup]

It may have been the case, it may not have been, but I'm not sure I'd take the word of the CHRB on it any more than I'd take JerryJam's gloating that he had slayed the great dragon known as the CHRB very seriously. He could barely claim a bad maiden for what he settled.

But, I have my doubts that anyone has authority to affirmatively dictate that you run a horse that you wish not to run. The rules everywhere clearly state that if you are to take one thing away from the book, it is that you are responsible for your horses' well-being and must protect them at all times. It's somewhat hard for me to imagine outside the realm of racetrack justice that anyone claiming to be acting with intent to follow that rule could be expected to adhere to both mutually exclusive mandates. Further in the article it expands on they way I've always believe to be the reality should anyone press it - ultimately they have the authority to punish for what you did or did not do, not to mandate what you do or do not do to avoid punishment.

The rules need to be in place before a person enters and tries to scratch. Horsemen know the 'rules' and they know how lenient racing secretaries are at letting them withdraw. If those tracks ruled with an iron fist and said if you dont want to run, don't enter, i think there would be less 'scratches' just for no reason. Cannon Shell said its 10 days or thereabouts at some places if you scratch you can't re-enter, i'd make it a month at SRU downs, that would mean you could scratch if you want to, but expect to wait if you do.

[Cannon shell]

It may have been the case, it may not have been, but I'm not sure I'd take the word of the CHRB on it any more than I'd take JerryJam's gloating that he had slayed the great dragon known as the CHRB very seriously. He could barely claim a bad maiden for what he settled.

But, I have my doubts that anyone has authority to affirmatively dictate that you run a horse that you wish not to run. The rules everywhere clearly state that if you are to take one thing away from the book, it is that you are responsible for your horses' well-being and must protect them at all times. It's somewhat hard for me to imagine outside the realm of racetrack justice that anyone claiming to be acting with intent to follow that rule could be expected to adhere to both mutually exclusive mandates. Further in the article it expands on they way I've always believe to be the reality should anyone press it - ultimately they have the authority to punish for what you did or did not do, not to mandate what you do or do not do to avoid punishment.I got fined $350 in NJ a few years ago for refusing to run

[magwell]

Cannon, did Tom Skiffington die ?

[johnhannibalsmith]

I got fined $350 in NJ a few years ago for refusing to run

As it should be. Penalizing someone for not running is appropriate. Demanding that they do run with various threats and allocating security to enforce the edict doesn't seem like a defensible position if it gets to the "real world" system of justice.

[thespaah]

If racing officials force a trainer to run a horse against veterinarians advice and something were to happen the lawsuits would be never ending, starting with PETA
Yes I understand. And that I agree with you on that point. I am no animal rights freak. However, the health and well being of the animal comes FIRST. No one should be forced to run a horse that is not fit. However, "not fit" means injured or sick. Not "well the horse didn't train lights out for this one so I am going to scratch"..That is not an 'unfit' horse.

[thespaah]

Let me explain the reality of the situation because too much nonsense is being tossed out there.

1. Most horses are money losers.
2. Most owners lose money.
3. Most tracks are under increased scrutiny in regards to horse welfare.
4. Most owners choose trainers based on win percentage.
5. Most horses who are "stuck" in a race and more or less forced to run finish up the track often with the instructions given to the jock that mention "protecting the horse" aka don't try.

Not allowing a horse to run for 30 days because of a minor sickness or injury will cause more horses to lose money, more owners to leave and more guys trying number 5 in order to not get the 30 days. Is that better? You want to bet on a horse that isn't really trying? Or see more breakdowns or horses pulling up because the horse shouldnt have run?

There is no injury/sickness meter that you can stick up the horses ass and have it spit out the degree of sickness or injury. It is generally a fluid situation and I will always err on the side of caution not only because I want to protect my horse along with the other horses, jocks, etc but also because I don't want people betting on my horse of he is less than 100%. It isn't fair to anyone. Are there guys who will scratch excessively? Yup. I worked for Tom Skiffington when he was alive and no one was more willing to handicap the race and scratch and this was long before trainers win % because the golden number. But just like in real life you cant legislate everything.

I scratched a horse tonight because he hasn't run in a long time because of an injury and I didn't feel like running him on a sloppy track off of that long layoff was in his best interests. If someone has a problem with that, so be it.
Now I can agree with you on your scratch. That is a horse health issue.
However, perhaps you should have thought the entry through a bit more.
Perhaps a shorter race where the wet track would not have been a factor.
Or was the wet track the ONLY issue?
See, this is a grey area that I cannot see ever being corrected. Yes, it sucks the weather turned against you. Yes it sucks that the field was reduced by at least one betting interest. However, the long payoff and the conditions warrant what is in the best interest of the horse, so be it. You pulled the horse out. In my estimation you get a hall pass on that one.
BUT....BIG BUT....If this was say second or third off the layoff, I'd have to call BS on the scratch.
Your thoughts?

[Cannon shell]

Cannon, did Tom Skiffington die ?
lol no

[Cannon shell]

As it should be. Penalizing someone for not running is appropriate. Demanding that they do run with various threats and allocating security to enforce the edict doesn't seem like a defensible position if it gets to the "real world" system of justice.
It was 95 degrees and my horse had a history of not sweating. It was ridiculous considering the conditions that I wasn't allowed out. I told them I'd rather pay the fine than lose the horse if she heat stroked. My horse was one of the choices in the race as well and I don't think I had scratched a single horse the entire meet. Not every case is clear cut. If I lied and had the vet write up a scratched sick card nothing would have happened.

[Stillriledup]

It was 95 degrees and my horse had a history of not sweating. It was ridiculous considering the conditions that I wasn't allowed out. I told them I'd rather pay the fine than lose the horse if she heat stroked. My horse was one of the choices in the race as well and I don't think I had scratched a single horse the entire meet. Not every case is clear cut. If I lied and had the vet write up a scratched sick card nothing would have happened.

I know this is neither here nor there, but what's your general feeling about horseplayers? Do you feel like its their game or do you feel like its really YOUR game and the bettors are just a necessary evil?

[Cannon shell]

Yes I understand. And that I agree with you on that point. I am no animal rights freak. However, the health and well being of the animal comes FIRST. No one should be forced to run a horse that is not fit. However, "not fit" means injured or sick. Not "well the horse didn't train lights out for this one so I am going to scratch"..That is not an 'unfit' horse.
Says who?

You dont have a crystal ball and either do we. I had a horse recently who was slightly off behind, not bad but walking a little stiff (which is not an uncommon situation). We xrayed and ultrasounded him to be on the safe side and nothing really showed up. Gave him a few days off and he came back to training fine. After about 2 weeks he worked better than he had worked prior to this. 3 days later he was lame in his stall with a fractured hind leg. In hind sight you would say lets give him 90 days off but if you gave every horse time off every time they were a little stiff you'd never run.

In other words how can you tell to what degree a horse may be sick or injured or 'not right'?

[Cannon shell]

Now I can agree with you on your scratch. That is a horse health issue.
However, perhaps you should have thought the entry through a bit more.
Perhaps a shorter race where the wet track would not have been a factor.
Or was the wet track the ONLY issue?
See, this is a grey area that I cannot see ever being corrected. Yes, it sucks the weather turned against you. Yes it sucks that the field was reduced by at least one betting interest. However, the long payoff and the conditions warrant what is in the best interest of the horse, so be it. You pulled the horse out. In my estimation you get a hall pass on that one.
BUT....BIG BUT....If this was say second or third off the layoff, I'd have to call BS on the scratch.
Your thoughts?
I'm not Al Roker. When we entered last Saturday the forecast wasn't bad. The race was a 6 furlong race and why would a sloppy track not be a factor in a short race?

You can call BS on the scratch all you like but you dont know anything about the physical condition of the horse so what gives you the right to believe that it is BS? Would I run if it was 2nd or 3rd or 10th off the layoff? I can't say for sure because I don't know what the condition of the horse would be at that time. However I do take the responsibility of the safety of the horse and rider pretty seriously (not all do). It is a responsibility that you don't understand until you have one of these decisions not go well.

[johnhannibalsmith]

It was 95 degrees and my horse had a history of not sweating. It was ridiculous considering the conditions that I wasn't allowed out. I told them I'd rather pay the fine than lose the horse if she heat stroked. My horse was one of the choices in the race as well and I don't think I had scratched a single horse the entire meet. Not every case is clear cut. If I lied and had the vet write up a scratched sick card nothing would have happened.

I didn't mean to imply that you should have been fined without even knowing the situation - just that fining for infractions is okay with me but I can't get behind the idea of forcing horses to run as they propose at SRU Downs and the theme of the JerryJam scenario.

[Cannon shell]

I know this is neither here nor there, but what's your general feeling about horseplayers? Do you feel like its their game or do you feel like its really YOUR game and the bettors are just a necessary evil?
It's everybody's game. I wasn't born into the game like alot of trainers. I started working on the backside at 14 because I was looking to make cash to bet. I have many friends and clients that are big players.

[magwell]

It's everybody's game. I wasn't born into the game like alot of trainers. I started working on the backside at 14 because I was looking to make cash to bet. I have many friends and clients that are big players. Tom used to scratch 50% of the time.....

[Cannon shell]

I didn't mean to imply that you should have been fined without even knowing the situation - just that fining for infractions is okay with me but I can't get behind the idea of forcing horses to run as they propose at SRU Downs and the theme of the JerryJam scenario.
I didn't take I like that just wanted to explain that sometimes, unfortunately you are better off not telling the truth.

[Cannon shell]

Tom used to scratch 50% of the time.....
I hadn't been working for him that long one year at GP and he went on vacation to some Caribbean island and left me in charge. We had a European filly in making her US debut on the grass of course and there was one of those FL storms that rolled through. I ran to the stewards office to scratch if they took it off the turf and was the 1st one to scratch (as per Skiffingtons orders if it came off). So Skiff calls on the barn phone from some remote location and I tell him we are scratched and he can call the owner in England (before cell phones and internet)

About 15 minutes later I get paged to call the stewards. They inform me that Skiffington scratches too much and that we are unscratched because the race fell apart. I beg them not to unscratch because I can't get a hold of Skiffington or the owner and they already think we are scratched. I tell the stewards that if you unscratch this horse I will surely get fired. After deliberating for a few minutes they rescratch her and say that they are not happy with my boss and not me and don't want the fallout to get me fired because I was prompt in getting over there to be the 1st one out.

[magwell]

Was the horse A G ?

[Cannon shell]

Was the horse A G ?
Oh no. I don't remember her name but I don't think she turned out to be much.

[thespaah]

Says who?

You dont have a crystal ball and either do we. I had a horse recently who was slightly off behind, not bad but walking a little stiff (which is not an uncommon situation). We xrayed and ultrasounded him to be on the safe side and nothing really showed up. Gave him a few days off and he came back to training fine. After about 2 weeks he worked better than he had worked prior to this. 3 days later he was lame in his stall with a fractured hind leg. In hind sight you would say lets give him 90 days off but if you gave every horse time off every time they were a little stiff you'd never run.

In other words how can you tell to what degree a horse may be sick or injured or 'not right'?
Ok..Interesting point. I will at that point take the path of caution and go with 'not right in the hind quarters as an injury of some sort'.
That was not what I meant when I stated "the horse did not train lights out coming up to today's race so I will scratch."..I contend that if the horse was not training lights out three days before the entry box closed, then why enter the horse in the first place?
Sick?..Cough. Nasal discharge. Not eating correctly. Poor stool. Frequent urination. High temperature. Those and other factors would be an appropriate time to call in the Vet because with these symptoms it may indicate the horse may be ill.
Injured....Carrying heat in the joints of the leg(s)...Swelling. Favoring or shying away to one side or another. Cuts, hoof cracks. Smelly frogs. Kicking or biting at a person that touches a certain painful place on the body.
These are things that would indicate to me that the horse may have some sort of injury. Again, if things like this show up, why enter in the first place?
Look, I am not trying to be a jerk here. I would hope we are having a frank discussion.
Again, based on my comments I ask for your thoughts.

[Cannon shell]

Was the horse A G ?
He was a really good horseman. Very sharp. Great rider. Every once in a while he'd get on one that wasn't going what he considered to be proper and you'd see his natural riding talent. By the time I worked for him it wasn't often but noteworthy when it happened.

[magwell]

He had a good filly Anka Germania

[magwell]

And Fieldy...... last heard he was in Wellington fla

[thespaah]

I'm not Al Roker. When we entered last Saturday the forecast wasn't bad. The race was a 6 furlong race and why would a sloppy track not be a factor in a short race?

You can call BS on the scratch all you like but you dont know anything about the physical condition of the horse so what gives you the right to believe that it is BS? Would I run if it was 2nd or 3rd or 10th off the layoff? I can't say for sure because I don't know what the condition of the horse would be at that time. However I do take the responsibility of the safety of the horse and rider pretty seriously (not all do). It is a responsibility that you don't understand until you have one of these decisions not go well.
Ok...I mis read your post. I thought it had said the race was long..
So apologies there.
Anyway, you did not state the horse you scratched had any sort of adverse physical condition. You clearly stated that you scratched because the track came up sloppy and you thought it best to not run because it was off a long layoff.
I countered with "good idea"..The caveat was if this was not the first off a long layoff I would have to call BS on the scratch. I just do not think that a wet track is a reasonable excuse to not run. Unless of course the track permits a trainer to pull out because the horse simply cannot handle a wet track.
One thing I do agree is with any trainer that believes his horse has no chance of a top effort and has good intentions when not running as a matter of integrity.

[Cannon shell]

He had a good filly Anka Germania
Yeah a lot of good ones.

[Cannon shell]

Ok..Interesting point. I will at that point take the path of caution and go with 'not right in the hind quarters as an injury of some sort'.
That was not what I meant when I stated "the horse did not train lights out coming up to today's race so I will scratch."..I contend that if the horse was not training lights out three days before the entry box closed, then why enter the horse in the first place?
Sick?..Cough. Nasal discharge. Not eating correctly. Poor stool. Frequent urination. High temperature. Those and other factors would be an appropriate time to call in the Vet because with these symptoms it may indicate the horse may be ill.
Injured....Carrying heat in the joints of the leg(s)...Swelling. Favoring or shying away to one side or another. Cuts, hoof cracks. Smelly frogs. Kicking or biting at a person that touches a certain painful place on the body.
These are things that would indicate to me that the horse may have some sort of injury. Again, if things like this show up, why enter in the first place?
Look, I am not trying to be a jerk here. I would hope we are having a frank discussion.
Again, based on my comments I ask for your thoughts.
Some days you are entering 5 days out. A lot can happen overnight. My point is that it is an inexact science. There are a thousand things that can go wrong with a horse and only one thing that can go right.

[magwell]

Some days you are entering 5 days out. A lot can happen overnight. My point is that it is an inexact science. There are a thousand things that can go wrong with a horse and only one thing that can go right. That's for sure..... where do you race at P N ?

[thespaah]

Some days you are entering 5 days out. A lot can happen overnight. My point is that it is an inexact science. There are a thousand things that can go wrong with a horse and only one thing that can go right.
Point understood.

[Robert Goren]

My gripe is there are some horses that are being stabled at the track that the trainers have no intention of running for 3 or 4 months. Some times when I look at the WOs and see WOs about 10 days apart for over 3 months, I wonder what is going on. I am talking about Stakes horses here either.

[Stillriledup]

My gripe is there are some horses that are being stabled at the track that the trainers have no intention of running for 3 or 4 months. Some times when I look at the WOs and see WOs about 10 days apart for over 3 months, I wonder what is going on. I am talking about Stakes horses here either.

Im not sure what it costs per year for a non claimer (a horse that the current connections plan on keeping) but does 40,000 sound right? Maybe CS can chime in and talk about what it costs.

A 15k claimer at Belmont could win 18k on one race, almost half of his entire expenses for 1 year. Just one win...so, in reality, in order to show a profit for the year, it comes down to winning 2 races and maybe finishing 2nd once and you're even, the rest is gravy.

[magwell]

If a horse wins a 18k purse with 60 % to the winner, the owner usually clears about half after the jockey and trainer's 10% comes out of the 60 %....

[johnhannibalsmith]

...

A 15k claimer at Belmont could win 18k on one race, almost half of his entire expenses for 1 year. Just one win...so, in reality, in order to show a profit for the year, it comes down to winning 2 races and maybe finishing 2nd once and you're even, the rest is gravy.

And yet, no matter where you go, there's never any shortage of races for non-winners of the year with big hangin' fields. Sound easy enough though, doesn't it?

[Stillriledup]

And yet, no matter where you go, there's never any shortage of races for non-winners of the year with big hangin' fields. Sound easy enough though, doesn't it?

Its "easier" if you claim a ready made horse who shows guts and talent and a track record of success. If you buy em at the sales, you could get stuck with one who has no heart and who can't win....that's the gamble.

It looks a lot easier than it is, the expenses for owners are a lot to overcome when the blue collar 'hired help' is being paid like a rock star.

[magwell]

If a horse wins a 18k purse with 60 % to the winner, the owner usually clears about half after the jockey and trainer's 10% comes out of the 60 %.... This is how tough it is SRU........:)

[cj]

This is how tough it is SRU........:)

He meant the winner's share was 18k, not the total purse. Owner would have 14.4k after paying the trainer and jock.

[magwell]

He meant the winner's share was 18k, not the total purse. Owner would have 14.4k after paying the trainer and jock. Your right ....:)

[thespaah]

My gripe is there are some horses that are being stabled at the track that the trainers have no intention of running for 3 or 4 months. Some times when I look at the WOs and see WOs about 10 days apart for over 3 months, I wonder what is going on. I am talking about Stakes horses here either.
There was a thread about two years ago that dealt with "warehousing' of horses.
The debate started out with some pretty draconian and some level headed ideas on how to prevent the practice.
The thread ended with the "well tracks are not going to piss off 50 and larger head stables."..

[Cannon shell]

My gripe is there are some horses that are being stabled at the track that the trainers have no intention of running for 3 or 4 months. Some times when I look at the WOs and see WOs about 10 days apart for over 3 months, I wonder what is going on. I am talking about Stakes horses here either.
I'm not sure what your point is? I don't know any reason why someone wouldn't run a horse who was ready to run if there was a race that fit?
Some trainers receive horses from farms that do extensive preparation off track so they can be ready to run with fewer posted works. Some of my owners send me horses that are ready to run withing 5/6 weeks because they had already done a lot of training prior to getting to my barn. Some send them in with little or no off track training at all and those take 3/4 months.

And it isn't as though there are horses lining up to take the place of those who aren't ready to go. Empty stalls don't help anyone

[Cannon shell]

Im not sure what it costs per year for a non claimer (a horse that the current connections plan on keeping) but does 40,000 sound right? Maybe CS can chime in and talk about what it costs.

A 15k claimer at Belmont could win 18k on one race, almost half of his entire expenses for 1 year. Just one win...so, in reality, in order to show a profit for the year, it comes down to winning 2 races and maybe finishing 2nd once and you're even, the rest is gravy.
It depends on the circuit. 40k might be on the low side at Belmont when you include everything but expenses there and S California are by far the highest.

Owners get approx 46% of the purse at NYRA tracks after paying jock, trainer (if trainer is charging 10%, many charge a little more) and all the NY deductions. So with a 30000 purse for a 15k claimer the owner actually clears about 11400.

[Cannon shell]

It looks a lot easier than it is, the expenses for owners are a lot to overcome when the blue collar 'hired help' is being paid like a rock star.
I'm trying to figure out why you think anyone outside of a few supertrainers are being paid like a rock star? Almost 100% of an owners day rate goes towards expenses directly related to the care of their horse. At short meets when you ship in like Keeneland because of the set up costs generally unless you temporarily raise your rate, the trainer will be operating at a loss.

[Al Gobbi]

Featured G3 today at Monmouth has four scratches out of a field of ten, will be at least one more as a MTO has not been scratched at this time.

[Stillriledup]

I'm trying to figure out why you think anyone outside of a few supertrainers are being paid like a rock star? Almost 100% of an owners day rate goes towards expenses directly related to the care of their horse. At short meets when you ship in like Keeneland because of the set up costs generally unless you temporarily raise your rate, the trainer will be operating at a loss.

But, at least one trainer in the world is paid and treated like a rock star, right?

In other words, if you're good, you CAN achieve rock star status, the model is set up for that to happen somehow.

[Jeff P]

This morning I loaded 27 TBred race card files into my software. As I type this, my current head count for scratched horses stands at 313. That works out to an avg. of 11.6 scratched runners per race card. (I have very little doubt that number climbs still higher between now and the end of my race day.)

Every time I think about the current state of this game - with the sheer number of scratched runners being about #18 on the list of things that ought to be addressed - I get a very strong sense that the modern day game is "broken" compared to the game of racing I grew up with.



-jp

.

[Stillriledup]

This morning I loaded 27 TBred race card files into my software. As I type this, my current head count for scratched horses stands at 313. That works out to an avg. of 11.6 scratched runners per race card. (I have very little doubt that number climbs still higher between now and the end of my race day.)

Every time I think about the current state of this game - with the sheer number of scratched runners being about #18 on the list of things that ought to be addressed - I get a very strong sense that the modern day game is "broken" compared to the game of racing I grew up with.



-jp

.

Too much of a horseman's game and not enough punishment for scratching, i would do the same thing if i was a trainer or owner, i would enter, pick my spot, handicap the race and run or not run depending on my post and what the field looked like.

[Cannon shell]

But, at least one trainer in the world is paid and treated like a rock star, right?

In other words, if you're good, you CAN achieve rock star status, the model is set up for that to happen somehow.
The model is not set up for that to happen except in extremely rare occasions, less than 1/2 of 1%. That would fall far outside of the norm which obviously would mean that your premise is flawed.

It is like saying that playing the lottery is the path to the easy life.

[Cannon shell]

This morning I loaded 27 TBred race card files into my software. As I type this, my current head count for scratched horses stands at 313. That works out to an avg. of 11.6 scratched runners per race card. (I have very little doubt that number climbs still higher between now and the end of my race day.)

Every time I think about the current state of this game - with the sheer number of scratched runners being about #18 on the list of things that ought to be addressed - I get a very strong sense that the modern day game is "broken" compared to the game of racing I grew up with.



-jp

.Does this include also eligibles that didn't draw in?

[Stillriledup]

The model is not set up for that to happen except in extremely rare occasions, less than 1/2 of 1%. That would fall far outside of the norm which obviously would mean that your premise is flawed.

It is like saying that playing the lottery is the path to the easy life.

My point was this. it IS possible to become a rock star as a trainer. Its NOT possible to become a "rock star" if you are a filing clerk working 9 to 5 shuffling papers. If you don't become a rock star, that's on you and not on the system. If you don't become a rock star in general office work, that's on the system, no matter how good you are, you're still a 9 to 5er working in an office.

[chadk66]

I've been thinking about the rise in scratches for a few days now. I trained in the 80's and early 90's. It was so different then. I think the majority of the scratches stem from entering way too far out for races now. Back when I trained it was two days out everywhere in the country. Now it's insane. Too much can happen in the days from entry to race thus scratches galore. And as stated no penalty anymore for scratching. If we vet scratched we went on the vets list immediately and had to have a vet inspection and a work witnessed by the state vet to be removed from the vets list. that is how it needs to be done now. And there were no scratches for off tracks unless you had an old injury that was in the horses best interest. you couldn't just scratch because your horse doesn't like the mud. It's just the shot you take when you enter. Only time you could scratch was if it was pulled off the turf or if it was a stakes race. and they shouldn't have even allowed easy outs from stakes. you enter you race. total BS. If your not smart enough to enter your horses in races they belong in you shouldn't be training horses. That's part of the job.

[Jeff P]

Does this include also eligibles that didn't draw in?

It does.

I took a few minutes and pasted the list of scratches as they existed on the Equibase.com site just before the time of my post (yesterday) into a spreadsheet. From there I sorted them by the letter code used by Equibase to designate the scratch reason.

Here's how that list shakes out:

90 Trainer (T)
85 Vet (V)
56 Steward (S)
33 Also Eligible (A)
20 Main Track Only (M)
15 Off Turf (O)
12 Cross Entered (R)
01 Gate (G)
------------------------
312 TOTAL



-jp

.

[chadk66]

It does.

I took a few minutes and pasted the list of scratches as they existed on the Equibase.com site just before the time of my post (yesterday) into a spreadsheet. From there I sorted them by the letter code used by Equibase to designate the scratch reason.

Here's how that list shakes out:

90 Trainer (T)
85 Vet (V)
56 Steward (S)
33 Also Eligible (A)
20 Main Track Only (M)
15 Off Turf (O)
12 Cross Entered (R)
01 Gate (G)
------------------------
312 TOTAL



-jp


.that's a hell of alot of stewards scratches on a given day

[Cannon shell]

My point was this. it IS possible to become a rock star as a trainer. Its NOT possible to become a "rock star" if you are a filing clerk working 9 to 5 shuffling papers. If you don't become a rock star, that's on you and not on the system. If you don't become a rock star in general office work, that's on the system, no matter how good you are, you're still a 9 to 5er working in an office.

Are you serious?

So no person ever worked his way through the system to become a "rock star"?

C'mon this is so stupid. Anyone in any profession can rise to the top.
Hell there are a million horse owners who have this storyline. Started at the bottom and worked their way to the top. Check out Frank Stronach's bio.

[Cannon shell]

I've been thinking about the rise in scratches for a few days now. I trained in the 80's and early 90's. It was so different then. I think the majority of the scratches stem from entering way too far out for races now. Back when I trained it was two days out everywhere in the country. Now it's insane. Too much can happen in the days from entry to race thus scratches galore. And as stated no penalty anymore for scratching. If we vet scratched we went on the vets list immediately and had to have a vet inspection and a work witnessed by the state vet to be removed from the vets list. that is how it needs to be done now. And there were no scratches for off tracks unless you had an old injury that was in the horses best interest. you couldn't just scratch because your horse doesn't like the mud. It's just the shot you take when you enter. Only time you could scratch was if it was pulled off the turf or if it was a stakes race. and they shouldn't have even allowed easy outs from stakes. you enter you race. total BS. If your not smart enough to enter your horses in races they belong in you shouldn't be training horses. That's part of the job.

Since you are paying to run in stakes that won't change. But you are correct in that entering early and having access to pp's makes more guys get cold feet (a lot of times it is the owners calling the shots). It wasn't that long ago that we didn't have access to pp's until the late afternoon prior to raceday. Now DRF pp's are up soon after the races are drawn.

[chadk66]

yes a ton has changed in the last twenty years. some for the good and obviously some for the bad.

[chadk66]

I started training at the same time Steve Asmussen started training. We ran against each other a ton. To see where he has come from the mid 80's is pretty amazing.

[Cannon shell]

I started training at the same time Steve Asmussen started training. We ran against each other a ton. To see where he has come from the mid 80's is pretty amazing.
It is almost as amazing to think that he actually rode races as a jockey considering his size

[chadk66]

It is almost as amazing to think that he actually rode races as a jockey considering his sizeI guess I've never heard steve rode races. He was always on the taller side since I've known him. If he did it had to be in his teens. Not to sound stupid but you aren't thinking of his brother cash are you?

[Cannon shell]

I guess I've never heard steve rode races. He was always on the taller side since I've known him. If he did it had to be in his teens. Not to sound stupid but you aren't thinking of his brother cash are you?
No Steve rode in NY as a bug, early 80's. Said he used to hunch over as to not look so tall.

[chadk66]

that's crazy I would have never guessed that.

[PhantomOnTour]

Check out R4 at Belmont today - lost half the field to scratches.
I know Carameaway ran yesterday so she was going to scratch, but then four of the remaining nine dropped out also.
The reason given?....Stake - which means (I guess) you can drop out for whatever reason...???

In fact, I can't find a bet on this Bel card until R6 or so...don't see any value.

[Al Gobbi]

Check out R4 at Belmont today - lost half the field to scratches.
I know Carameaway ran yesterday so she was going to scratch, but then four of the remaining nine dropped out also.
The reason given?....Stake - which means (I guess) you can drop out for whatever reason...???

In fact, I can't find a bet on this Bel card until R6 or so...don't see any value.

NYRA needs to stop carding these fake stake races, most of them either have 5 or 6 horse fields or have a number of scratches. As you mentioned Carameaway ran yesterday and Maxana is an MTO, but there's no reason the other three, including both halves of an entry should come out unless sick/sore.

[PhantomOnTour]

NYRA needs to stop carding these fake stake races, most of them either have 5 or 6 horse fields or have a number of scratches.
Now everyone gets paid !
Yay

[Al Gobbi]

Monmouth scratches are now out, Race 4 had thirteen $5k claimers going six furlongs. Race is now reduced to a field of five.

[cj]

Monmouth scratches are now out, Race 4 had thirteen $5k claimers going six furlongs. Race is now reduced to a field of five.

That is just ridiculous.

[PhantomOnTour]

This meet at Bel they have run 22 of these overnight type Stakes* (most with a purse anywhere from 64k-85k...some were 100k, like the Easy Goer).
Three were moved off the turf and onto the main course so I didn't count those....a total of 112 runners ran in these 19 races for an average field size of 5.89

* I did not use any race already listed in the Stakes schedule at NYRA

Only the Easy Goer with nine runners had a field size of more than seven (and only four other Stks had more than six) and almost half (9/19) had five horse fields....wonder how many fields scratched down to only five.
Now, I didn't do an analysis of the winning mutuels from these races, so maybe there's value in them, but on the surface a five horse field doesn't interest me that much.

[cj]

This meet at Bel they have run 22 of these overnight type Stakes* (most with a purse anywhere from 64k-85k...some were 100k, like the Easy Goer).
Three were moved off the turf and onto the main course so I didn't count those....a total of 112 runners ran in these 19 races for an average field size of 5.89

* I did not use any race already listed in the Stakes schedule at NYRA

Only the Easy Goer with nine runners had a field size of more than seven (and only four other Stks had more than six) and almost half (9/19) had five horse fields....wonder how many fields scratched down to only five.
Now, I didn't do an analysis of the winning mutuels from these races, so maybe there's value in them, but on the surface a five horse field doesn't interest me that much.

These races are nothing more than replacements for conditioned allowance races. Those horses have to run some time, don't they? I'm no fan of all this scratching, but if you wait for full fields for these kinds of horses, they'll never run.

[mountainman]

Looking at the 8th race at MNR on 6-24-13. Fast track. 9 horses entered and 5 of them scratched.

Why? Why do so many horses scratch these days?

I've got an archived blog entitled "superman never scratches" that addresses this issue at length. It's blunt and did not endear me to certain people.

Nice score on that pic 3, btw.

[Stillriledup]

I've got an archived blog entitled "superman never scratches" that addresses this issue at length. It's blunt and did not endear me to certain people.

Nice score on that pic 3, btw.

Wait, i don't understand, you're saying Dwight Howard hasnt ever missed a game due to an 'ailment'? :D

[mountainman]

Wait, i don't understand, you're saying Dwight Howard hasnt ever missed a game due to an 'ailment'? :D

God, I despise Dwight Howard. Just straight up dislike the guy.

[Stillriledup]

God, I despise Dwight Howard. Just straight up dislike the guy.

He's hard to like for sure...he has to be the new most hated man in the NBA, he's going to be tortured by Lakers fans everytime he shows up in LA.

Just read your Superman Blog, great stuff, love you telling it like it is, too bad for those who want to maintain the 'status quo'.

[Al Gobbi]

twenty scratches (many of them via the vet) on yesterday's nine race card at Suffolk with Fast/Firm conditions. It was in the 90's yesterday but didn't feel too oppressive.