You've Been Appointed Czar of US Horse Racing

[VeryOldMan]

The "occupation" thread has gotten pretty far afield - Cannon_shell made an interesting observation about being made Czar of US horse racing.

What would you do as Czar?

Off the top of my head, I would:

1. Massively consolidate the number of tracks
2. Try to avoid obviously overlapping meets (like we see in the MD/PA/DE/NJ area)
3. Continue breeder/owner bonuses but completely eliminate state-bred subsidies
4. Tighten drug rules and have suspensions be a lot longer for any violation
5. Have reciprocal treatment of those violations so that bad trainers can't simply set up shop in another jurisdiction

There are probably a lot more, but the collective wisdom of this board is way over my head.

I realize I have nothing bettor specific. We'd all love lower takeout rates, but as Czar I'd demand evidence that lower rates would lead to an increase in net revenue. That's all.

What would you do - for the sport as a whole - if a genie granted you the Czar title?

[Stillriledup]

I would rule with an iron fist, cheaters be gone. BE GONE I SAY!

Here's my list, flame away!

1) I would get rid of dime supers, 1 dollar minimum. :D

2) I would have 2 seperate win pools for each race. Win pool A closes 1 minute to post and Win pool B closes at off time. This way, the complaints about changing odds during the race would be gone as you would have the option of betting on a race where the pool closes early. Would certainly be an interesting case study to see which pool consistently produces the better win payoffs .

3) Any horse that comes up with a positive of any kind, wither its baking soda or something else, that horse gets a 3 month suspension.

4) 5 day suspension for any jock not urging thru the wire and a 10 day suspension if he loses a board spot because of wire misjudgment. Harsher penalties for repeat offenders.

Here's a post i made in another Czar thread about 3 years ago right here at PA.

Since most higher ups in horse racing come to PA for their news and drama, its fairly likely they're going to read this post and implement these suggestions. Here's your chance to add to the discussion and be racing czar for a day (or, hopefully longer).

Let me know what you would change if you had ultimate authority over all racetracks.

I know this is going to annoy some (yes, that's my job, to get under your skin ) but i would go back to no pick 3 consolations. I would go back to giving you the post time favorite if you get late scratched and here's why.

I don't think that someone who picked a horse who was destined to lose, should be taking money out of the winners pockets. If you bet a horse in your pick 3 that gets late scratched, you probably made a bad pick. You bet on a lame horse or a horse who wasn't ready to race. Sometimes those horses look horrible and ragged on video (See Sunny Peace today in the 5th at Hollywood) and you don't deserve to get a refund at the expense of the people who knew the horse was lame when the bets were made. I know, you'll say that the horse could have been perfectly sound and stepped on a rock and those bettors had bad luck and should be rewarded, but i believe most times, the horse was 'no good' heading into the race and just unraveled in the warmup.

Back to the Sunny Peace situation at Hollywood, whoever SPECIFICALLY bet pick 3's because they knew Sunny Peace would lose today and were trying to take advantage of her being overbet and in the race, those people had the bad bettors money taken out of the pools and given back to them, AFTER The bets were in and locked.


Another rule i would change is to have 2 seperate payoffs in case of a dead heat in the Pick 4. If a 3-5 shot and a 16-1 shot dead heat in a pick 4, the money gets all lumped together. The person who picked the 16-1 shot should get rewarded. There's 2 seperate payoffs in the pick 3, no reason the same isnt true for the pick 4.

Last thing i have on my head is not a betting rule, but a punishment rule. If a trainer gets suspended for 30 days or more, he must transfer any horse who runs in that time period to another already established trainer. This would force the owner to either not run, or to run in the name of another 'real' trainer, not some stable employee who has his trainers license. That's bogus. That permits the suspended (cheating) trainer to hang out at the beach and train from the cellphone. What kind of 'punishment' is that?

[nearco]

The "occupation" thread has gotten pretty far afield - Cannon_shell made an interesting observation about being made Czar of US horse racing.

What would you do as Czar?

Off the top of my head, I would:

1. Massively consolidate the number of tracks

Tracks are independently owned entities. You can not open or close them, no more than you can shut down the local Garden Supply center.
Track licenses are given out by state racing commisions.


2. Try to avoid obviously overlapping meets (like we see in the MD/PA/DE/NJ area)

Dates are handed out by state racing commisions.


3. Continue breeder/owner bonuses but completely eliminate state-bred subsidies

State bred subsidies are given out by breeders associations in individual states. Who gives you say over what or how they dispense their monies?

4. Tighten drug rules and have suspensions be a lot longer for any violation

Would require all state racing commissions to be singing off the same hymn sheet. Who gives you the power to dictate to them what they can and can't do? The Federal govt?
LOL, given that most of the posters on this forum are rabid anti-gubmint "state's rights" libretarians/conservatives, good luck selling that idea around here.


5. Have reciprocal treatment of those violations so that bad trainers can't simply set up shop in another jurisdiction

I believe that pretty much exists at the moment, even if it is just a "gentleman's agreement", as it were.


There are probably a lot more, but the collective wisdom of this board is way over my head.

I realize I have nothing bettor specific. We'd all love lower takeout rates, but as Czar I'd demand evidence that lower rates would lead to an increase in net revenue. That's all.

What would you do - for the sport as a whole - if a genie granted you the Czar title?

This is fairly tale stuff though, not based in reality. It would require a massive change in governmental approach, indeed laws at the Federal level, for there to be a "Czar" in the first place.

[jasperson]

I would institute if you enter the horse he goes unless he is sick or lame. No more scratched for this race.

[nearco]

I would institute if you enter the horse he goes unless he is sick or lame. No more scratched for this race.

So if you think the ground is too hard, too sloppy, too frozen and would endanger the welfare of your horse, you can't make what you feel is the best desicion for the animal?
What if a race comes off the grass, and your horse can't run a lick on dirt? You should still have to run?

[wiffleball whizz]

Not kissing up to pave advantage but to be honest he owns the website that has the best group of horse players/announcers....in my opinion that's pretty powerful in my opinion.....


Mason malmuth the owner of 2+2 poker forum is regarded as one of the most powerful people in the poker world, i don't see any reason why pace advantage can't be that person.....this website per capita in my opinion is as strong as 2+2

If me saying another site is against this forums rules I apologize I'm just giving an example they are 2 of the best gambling forums in my opinion

[Dan Montilion]

I Quit!

[TheEdge07]

Change post time,

[craigbraddick]

Resign immediately and empty the cellars of the building with all the agreeable claret, brandy and scotch I can carry as a parting handshake!

Craig

[VeryOldMan]

This is fairly tale stuff though, not based in reality. It would require a massive change in governmental approach, indeed laws at the Federal level, for there to be a "Czar" in the first place.

Uh - my premise of the thread is obviously fairy tale.

I'm a recreational bettor but am probably an advantage player on the legal front on this board. Let's get back to the Czar idea.

[Stillriledup]

Not kissing up to pave advantage but to be honest he owns the website that has the best group of horse players/announcers....in my opinion that's pretty powerful in my opinion.....


Mason malmuth the owner of 2+2 poker forum is regarded as one of the most powerful people in the poker world, i don't see any reason why pace advantage can't be that person.....this website per capita in my opinion is as strong as 2+2

If me saying another site is against this forums rules I apologize I'm just giving an example they are 2 of the best gambling forums in my opinion

There's no doubt the horseplayers here are the best around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em30XL9c5NQ

[Saratoga_Mike]

Uh - my premise of the thread is obviously fairy tale.I'm a recreational bettor but am probably an advantage player on the legal front on this board. Let's get back to the Czar idea.

I thought the czar part gave it away, but I guess not.

[burnsy]

It would not be a "Czar" it would be the position of Comissioner......like the NBA, NFL, NHL and MLB.....you know all the games that currently kick Horse racings ass because they have merged and strengthened.......millions watched the Heat/Spurs game last night and most didn't even bet it. What about Nascar? The tracks run on a schedule, they don't cut each others throat. Now Nascar is one of the biggest sports on TV. Calling it a "Czar" , you might as well of put this on that wacky, ridiculous, moronic, political thread area. Thats half the problem, people don't do whats right anymore, they do things to spite the opposition party or power grab whatever they can hold on to. Instead of involving state and federal governments the game has to be privatized and run like any other sport. If the states want to oversee wagering.........fine, but this crap of deciding racing dates and states fiddle f^cking with racing must end. This structure is doomed from the start because you have to compete with entities that are powerful and organized like i just stated. Horse racing is a splitered, fractured mess where there are too many interests......out for themselves, from the states meddling to the actual track operations. Instead of one constant product, you get political food fights and 10 good horses running at 11 race tracks...its a joke to even think horse racing has a shot with the current structure. Its not going to die, theres money in it, but its been relagated to WWE status and Boxing status, soon to be Harness racing status. The sport is a joke when you compare it to MLB, NFL, Nascar or the NBA........they were smart enough to merge decades ago. Even when they were splintered too. The gambling part of it is an "excuse" for the state to meddle.....and steal. There should be over site but the daily running of the game should be private. This will never happen....it has nothing to do with the Czar title.........every other sport has one...they are called the Comissioner and it works pretty well judging from how these sports do. Zenyatta is racing against 4 slugs and Rachel Alexandra is racing on the opposite coast against 4 others.............gee, you'll get far doing that........ Post time for 3 different races is in 2 minutes.....make your bets.........Gulfstream and Calder are running the same meet at the same time.....the state on NY has taken over racing and they don't have an official Chairmen for over a year..........Who needs leadership or organizing??????????????Not Horse racing?:bang:

[Robert Goren]

It wouldn't be pretty for a while. Racing has to get its costs in line. That means renegotiating the deals with the horsemen. We might have to go a year without racing to get it done. Racing can't compete with these takeouts and to lower takeouts , you are going have lower purses. I know going to rake over the coals for suggesting this, but it has to be done. The second thing that I would do is get the slot machines away from the race tracks. Nobody goes from the casino side of a racino to the racing side, but there is plenty of movement the other way. There is just no way casinos and race tracks can exist side by side. There reasons for that happening, but that belongs in another thread. Another move that isn't going to be popular, but has to be done. Once these two things are done, I would start on the drug problem. Racing has to look squeaky clean. That is not the case now. Until these thing are done, any marketing of the game/sport is going to met with futility.

[burnsy]

[QUOTE=I would start on the drug problem. Racing has to look squeaky clean.[/QUOTE]

This is the only thing you posted that i agree with. The casino thing you gripe about has nothing to do with it..racing was declining before the casinos even left the indian reservations...the take out has nothing to do with it. They rob the people that play slots and lotterys, yet they are breaking records. People could give a shit about take outs, if they did horse racing would still be on top. Saratoga packs the house daily and most people there are 2 dollar bettors bringing their beer and coolers in for a good time. Its beyond money, its called people giving a crap....which right now they really don't. All the sports i cited.....people hardly bet them other than football, but they all get huge ratings and ample media time at ALL levels including print......horse racing can't even hold on to print media now.....in NYC....thats just sad. If handle is the only thing that matters.....tear down the grandstands....race with nobody watching, that will bolster interest....:lol: It all starts with the product thats offered, if its not fresh, exciting and fun.(to acutually go to the track)...you might as well shut down. People love stars, they love stars that compete against each other even more. Build up the game by shrinking it down some. Its so watered down that there are only about 4 times a year people give a hoot. The BC has to go, it was more interesting with the fall championship racing. You know, a series of races where horses actually compete more than one day to win the awards. Theres so much racing (at different tracks) that people look at it from the outside and say...."just another horse race, who cares?" Then the ones that do play, like us say, "Wow, 5 horses and 3 suck....captivating......" You sit there and blame the take out, yet at the same time you admit that people are leaving the track to play the casinos...you don't even make sense because the take out at a slot machine is robbery. You push a damn button and hope for the best. Its not just the betting, people want new technology(those fancy, shiny video machines), a nice meal at a good price...things the casinos offer that the track does not. The takeout, the handle, the casinos....blah, blah ,blah. Offer a fresh venue with class horses and full fields and you'll get some where. Horse racing should worry about horse racing and quit the "excuses" business. Just fess up to reality, half these tracks got to go, the season has to be organized better and the tracks have to offer a family atmosphere like Saratoga, whether the people bet or not. This thing where only old men go to the track is BS, Saratoga is never like that and it kicks ass. I've been going since i was 15. The Yankees played last night....there were 30 people in the stands:sleeping: but 2 million were watching at home..how long would they tolerate that?....thats the reality some (track) people are trying to sell.........everything is fine...the handle is high even though no one shows up...Yeah, and the only ones that give a shit are the ones that bet.....this game is in a desparate need for "FANS" of the game, the betting is secondary. If fans don't have rivalries and competition to follow, theres no interest and these days that means a place you would bring your girlfriend or wife and possibly your family too. Christ, we can't even get people to pick up the sports section to see who won! Empty race tracks is not the answer, no matter what the handle is. Asses in the seats translate to free publicity and media attention which leads to interest and a following otherwise it will continue to be the second rate game that it has become. :sleeping:

[thaskalos]

The day that full-card simulcasting was introduced, horse racing stopped being the "spectacle" that it once was...and it became just a hardcore gambling game -- and nothing else. Even after a marquee event like the Kentucky Derby has just been run, the betting crowd has no time to reflect on what just happened...because the next race is just a few minutes away in some other part of the country.

You want to see the game grow? Then treat is as the gambling game that it really is...instead of the "entertainment" spectacle that you wish it to be.

The race tracks are flush with casino profits which they think will never run out...so they think that they can afford to turn their backs on their racing patrons.

I hope, for their sake, that they are right...but I maintain my skepticism.

[nearco]

You don't need less tracks, what you need is less racing at the existing tracks.

In most parts of the country you have to drive hours to get to a track. Less tracks means many people are now further removed from a track experience. That's hardly what you want.

Racing 5 days a week for months on end takes away some of the specialness of it. If tracks had more compressed meets it becomes more of an event when it's on.

Australia has 360 racecourses, that's in a nation of of 22m people. Obviously many of those only race a day or two a year, put it's a special deal for the locals when they do. And the Aussies bet like maniacs, and the sport is popular. That's because it's an event, entertainment, not just a betting vehicle.

[Stillriledup]

The day that full-card simulcasting was introduced, horse racing stopped being the "spectacle" that it once was...and it became just a hardcore gambling game -- and nothing else. Even after a marquee event like the Kentucky Derby has just been run, the betting crowd has no time to reflect on what just happened...because the next race is just a few minutes away in some other part of the country.

You want to see the game grow? Then treat is as the gambling game that it really is...instead of the "entertainment" spectacle that you wish it to be.

The race tracks are flush with casino profits which they think will never run out...so they think that they can afford to turn their backs on their racing patrons.

I hope, for their sake, that they are right...but I maintain my skepticism.

Theres only so many times you can run anonymous horses in a circle and not have the novelty wear off a bit.

[Robert Goren]

The day that full-card simulcasting was introduced, horse racing stopped being the "spectacle" that it once was...and it became just a hardcore gambling game -- and nothing else. Even after a marquee event like the Kentucky Derby has just been run, the betting crowd has no time to reflect on what just happened...because the next race is just a few minutes away in some other part of the country.

You want to see the game grow? Then treat is as the gambling game that it really is...instead of the "entertainment" spectacle that you wish it to be.

The race tracks are flush with casino profits which they think will never run out...so they think that they can afford to turn their backs on their racing patrons.

I hope, for their sake, that they are right...but I maintain my skepticism. I agree with you. It is all about gambling. The idea of a bunch of Saratoga type meets around the country won't work. If it would, we have them. I stand by my contention that casino are a death blow to racing. I watch Aksarben die on the vine because no one from KC came anymore to gamble because they could go to a riverboat instead. Horse racing needs to get over the idea that it is a sport anymore if it ever was. The NFL does not get one penny from the bets made on it. Could horse racing survive with gambling money from either on its races or from attached casinos? There are too tracks and too many horses racing that have no business being on the track because of it. Racing need to streamline to be competitive with other games of chance. The horse people don't want to hear it, but it is the truth. If NFL let it players run the game, the way the horsemen run racing, where do you think they be? If casinos let the black jack dealers run their business, how long would they be open?

[dilanesp]

Not kissing up to pave advantage but to be honest he owns the website that has the best group of horse players/announcers....in my opinion that's pretty powerful in my opinion.....


Mason malmuth the owner of 2+2 poker forum is regarded as one of the most powerful people in the poker world, i don't see any reason why pace advantage can't be that person.....this website per capita in my opinion is as strong as 2+2

If me saying another site is against this forums rules I apologize I'm just giving an example they are 2 of the best gambling forums in my opinion

The thing is, even though Mason is powerful and respected, there's still a lot of crazy and stupid rules in poker. Just like horse racing.

Personally, I agree with a lot of the stuff in this thread-- we need to close a lot of tracks, not race year round, adopt European medication rules, lower takeout, and make the tracks safer. I would also make horse racing regulation national, so that states can't race to the bottom on things like medication rules. But none of its ever going to happen, because the power structure in the industry is too diffuse and easily captured by horsemen who want lots of tiny fields full of doped up horses.

[Stillriledup]

Here's another thing i would actually try and do as Czar.

I would have 2 seperate betting pools, one would be the normal pool and the other pool would be the disqualificationless pool. Whatever numbers cross the line, that's what gets paid off. in other words, if you pick a winner, you get paid. If you don't like that idea, you can always bet into the normal pool..this gives bettors the option of not having to sweat out inquiries, you win, you get paid.

[johnhannibalsmith]

.... The NFL does not get one penny from the bets made on it. ...

Not directly anyway. I know that's not part of the real point here, but much like horse racing in 2013, I'd argue that if people didn't have the endorphin allure of the wager/pool/whatever, a lot of them wouldn't care nearly as much about tuning in.

[billytk]

stop running 5 and 51/2 furlong races .

[pandy]

1). Lower takeout to 5% to 10% depending on bets.
2). Lower purses for 2yo stakes, raise purses for 4yo and older stakes.
3). Ban lasix.
4). Put in much stricter penalties for certain drug positives including prohibiting the horse from racing for minimum of 90 days.
5). Discourage races shorter than 6 furlongs (horses are injured far more in sprints and short sprints for 2yo's cause physical problems...also need to get breeders to breed more for stamina).

[nearco]

Seeing as we are playing the away with the fairies game

## legalise bookmakers and/or some form of fixed odds betting.... amazed on a board of "cappers" no one has mentioned that yet. When you place a bet on a 5/1 shot, that's what you should get... not 2/1 when the gate opens.

## legalise peer to peer betting.. exchanges

## put a 5-10% (actual % to be determined by proper study) premium on all bets placed on the above two to go towards purses.

## encourage variation in racetrack configuration..... oval, triangle, striaght, figure of eight, left, right.

## encourage variation in distances. Who in their right mind wants to watch horses go 6f around one turn, lefthanded, race after race after race after race at every track you watch? That would bore the hole off a badger.

## Limit the number of prep races that count towards the KY Derby to 2 or 3, and make the maximum purse for all pre-Derby 3yo races $200k.

## have a series of G1 WFA races, one a month or 3 weeks from May up to BC with min purses of $1m. Have a points system in these races that goes towards a big end of season prize to the horse with the most points... min $10m.

## Push the BC back to end of Nov, or even into Dec and hold in permanently in a sunshine state with good weather.

## introduce a weekly, or monthly, national multi-race exotic bet, a pick-7 or some such... something along the lines of the V-75 in Sweden. Go toe to toe with lotteries on that one. Have big name races as part of the bet.

## turn racetracks into places where people actually want to go for entertainment and not the domain of sweaty overweight degenerates with no lives. Make them a bit more high class. Racing now sells itself as low-end low cost and that drives people away as people associate low cost with low class.
The racetrack itself, actual physical plant, doesn't need to appeal to hardcore gamblers, they can bet from home. Appeal to people with disposable income, not the whiners who bitch about $5 admission and a $6 burger.

## make it more profitable to keep a horse racing than go to stud... allow A.I for TB breeding (I guess in this fairyland I'm also Czar of of the JC too.. LOL), but limit book sizes of stallions to a reasonable amount.

## ban loud mouth egomaniacs that love the sound of their own voice like Repole from owning race horses (hey, I'm Czar, I can do whatevah the fudge I want).

## Build proper living accomodations on the backside of racetracks for workers and encourage a proper living wage.

## Have turn out paddocks and off-ground farms associated with every track where horses can go for daily and monthly R&R.... like horses are supposed to get, not just stand in a stall 23.5 hours day for months on end.

## hell, screw the last one, just make it so all horses are trained in training facilities like Fair Hill.

## above all, make racing an actual fun sport to follow and watch, for all ages.

[nearco]

Now, here's one way to interact with the racing fans.
There's a big G1 race in Japan this weekend, the Takarazuka Kinen. It's the biggest WFA race of the summer in Japan, worth a cool $3.5m. All the heavy hitters in Japanese racing are expected to run in it (unfortunately Orfevere has been scratched, but that's neither here nor there). So, get this, the runners for the race are chosen in part by the racing fans.

The lineup of this year's Takarazuka Kinen (G1, 2,200 meters, turf) at Hanshin Racecourse was expected to be one of the strongest ever, with three superpowers and the three top favorites of Japan racing fans on the marquee – Orfevre, Gold Ship and Gentildonna. The Takarazuka Kinen members are chosen in part by fan ballot and Orfevre had netted the No. 1 spot with over 75,000 votes. Gold Ship, winner of last year's Satsuki Sho, Kikuka Sho and Arima Kinen, was second with upward of 57,000 votes, while Gentildonna, who captured the Filly Triple Crown as well as the Japan Cup last year, took the No. 3 spot for fan support.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Every dump that offers both QH and TB racing would have to reconfigure the facility to provide a chute that allows for 1000 yarders with no hook. So sick of bad 870 after bad 870 for no-training clowns that have no-running nags that get to beat on the worst QH on the grounds for allowance money and the sorry field doesn't have a single entry that could win a conditioned claimer. And somehow we've reached the near complete extinction of 1000 yarders. So sick of QH guys that think that pounders have to go straight to be competitive and that TB that can't run a step will automatically beat their best pounders just because the race doesn't start inside the quarter pole. QH vs. TB is a good gimmick and can be a great races, both to watch and to bet on since the more system oriented players seem to avoid the mishmash, and somehow they've managed to make those races the worst on the card day in and day out. Time to fix that. And yes, that is the single most important problem facing the racing industry and would be priority number one.

[JustRalph]

Cut down those damn trees at Tampa Bay Downs.

Then close half the tracks.

[Robert Goren]

Not directly anyway. I know that's not part of the real point here, but much like horse racing in 2013, I'd argue that if people didn't have the endorphin allure of the wager/pool/whatever, a lot of them wouldn't care nearly as much about tuning in.You take gambling away from the NFL, it would still exist in some form. You take gambling away from horse racing, it ceases to exist in any form. That is the real point. Horse racing is like a roulette wheel, it serves no purpose except for something for people to bet on. That is the truth whether anybody likes it or not. It is long past time to stop this horse racing is a sport and a picnic-at-the- race nonsense. Horse racing fans are geeks at a computer and old men at a simulcast center yelling at TVs. They are not families on a picnic. Heck, most tracks won't even let you bring in your own food anymore.

[Hoofless_Wonder]

Allow commingled wagering with Hong Kong, Singapore and Australia and let nature take its course.

Being able to play the best racing on the planet would attract a lot of the whale's play, and would require American racing to adapt to survive. This would address the drugs, take out, and other issues.

And if I can play Sha Tin's 8th race at 3 AM, I could care less what's running at most American tracks....

[Viruss]

thaskalos

"The race tracks are flush with casino profits which they think will never run out...so they think that they can afford to turn their backs on their racing patrons."


That is the truth and nothing but the truth!!!!



Earl J