John Paul II - Miracle #2

[classhandicapper]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/10129593/Vatican-to-announce-John-Paul-II-miracle.html

[TJDave]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/10129593/Vatican-to-announce-John-Paul-II-miracle.html

The real miracle is that hundreds of millions believe this nonsense. :lol:

[thaskalos]

It makes you think twice about the true credentials of the rest of the saints in the Christian faith...

Classhandicapper...could you do me a favor and also post this in the religious thread?

[JustRalph]

The real miracle is that hundreds of millions believe this nonsense. :lol:

That's the problem. They don't

Catholics are great pretenders in my book.

[classhandicapper]

It makes you think twice about the true credentials of the rest of the saints in the Christian faith...

Classhandicapper...could you do me a favor and also post this in the religious thread?

I don't even know what the miracle supposedly was.

What I do know from personal research is that the standards for declaring something a miracle are NOT as flimsy as you might think if you are a skeptic or atheist.

Many involve cures of terminal cases or irreversible conditions. They are rigorously reviewed by both Catholic and non Catholic medical experts. Personal physicians that know the history of the patient are interviewed and all medical records are reviewed. They cure has to be almost spontaneous and within the narrowest of windows between the time of prayer and cure. I forget all the rest, but the list is actually quite impressive if you believe the standards are actually being met. That's the question mark.

[PaceAdvantage]

Wouldn't praying to someone other than God (Jesus) be considered false idolatry and thus a violation of the ten commandments?

[thaskalos]

I don't even know what the miracle supposedly was.

What I do know from personal research is that the standards for declaring something a miracle are NOT as flimsy as you might think if you are a skeptic or atheist.

Many involve cures of terminal cases or irreversible conditions. They are rigorously reviewed by both Catholic and non Catholic medical experts. Personal physicians that know the history of the patient are interviewed and all medical records are reviewed. They cure has to be almost spontaneous and within the narrowest of windows between the time of prayer and cure. I forget all the rest, but the list is actually quite impressive if you believe the standards are actually being met. That's the question mark.
I somehow thought that the standard for "saints" was set a little higher than it apparently is.

If John Paul II qualifies to be called a saint...then, who isn't?

[TJDave]

That's the problem. They don't

Catholics are great pretenders in my book.

So, then, Catholics would be better people if they did believe in nonsense?

[JustRalph]

So, then, Catholics would be better people if they did believe in nonsense?

Just sticking to the basic tenets would be a start

[jdhanover]

I don't even know what the miracle supposedly was.

What I do know from personal research is that the standards for declaring something a miracle are NOT as flimsy as you might think if you are a skeptic or atheist.

Many involve cures of terminal cases or irreversible conditions. They are rigorously reviewed by both Catholic and non Catholic medical experts. Personal physicians that know the history of the patient are interviewed and all medical records are reviewed. They cure has to be almost spontaneous and within the narrowest of windows between the time of prayer and cure. I forget all the rest, but the list is actually quite impressive if you believe the standards are actually being met. That's the question mark.


The flaw in this research is that they don't look for cases of so-called miracle cures when there was no prayer invovled (which do exist). And/or what if the person is of a different religion praying to a different Supreme Being?

Note - I am not saying one way or another whether there are these so-called miracles, just that this research is severley flawed (and biased). Admittedly I am skeptical, but the I recognize that the possibility does exist. There are number of illnesses that are fatal 95+% of the time (the "irreversible conditions"), but not 100%. One would need to investigate all of the few percent that were not and review the 'prayer' component.

[Greyfox]

Wouldn't praying to someone other than God (Jesus) be considered false idolatry and thus a violation of the ten commandments?

No.
All prayers are to God.
A beseechment to someone presumed to be with God has been made in the hope that the request will receive some advocacy.

[classhandicapper]

This is miracle #1

http://thedivinemercy.org/news/story.php?NID=4917

[Saratoga_Mike]

Just sticking to the basic tenets would be a start

Which Christian sects do a better job in your estimation? You mean the basic tenets of Christianity, I assume???

[classhandicapper]

The flaw in this research is that they don't look for cases of so-called miracle cures when there was no prayer invovled (which do exist). And/or what if the person is of a different religion praying to a different Supreme Being?

Note - I am not saying one way or another whether there are these so-called miracles, just that this research is severley flawed (and biased). Admittedly I am skeptical, but the I recognize that the possibility does exist. There are number of illnesses that are fatal 95+% of the time (the "irreversible conditions"), but not 100%. One would need to investigate all of the few percent that were not and review the 'prayer' component.

That's why they insist that the window between prayer and cure be extremely narrow and cure almost spontaneous.

The chances of stumbling on to one of those cases is quite remote.

The chances of stumbling on to one that occurred within a week or so that the prayer started is even more remote.

The chances of stumbling on to one that lead to a spontaneous reversal of the disease and an "all clear" from doctors is incredibly remote.

Now do it twice!

[classhandicapper]

I somehow thought that the standard for "saints" was set a little higher than it apparently is.

If John Paul II qualifies to be called a saint...then, who isn't?

I'm definitely not on the list. :lol:

There is process for getting on the list. I think there is a 5 year waiting period after a person dies and a thorough review of the person's entire life to see if they meet the standards. From what I gather it is not large list and not everyone on it becomes a Saint. Most don't. I would guess that Popes have an inside track because they are vetted before becoming Popes and their life history is well known.

[rastajenk]

Sounds like the baseball Hall of Fame. :p

[thaskalos]

I don't even know what the miracle supposedly was.

What I do know from personal research is that the standards for declaring something a miracle are NOT as flimsy as you might think if you are a skeptic or atheist.

Many involve cures of terminal cases or irreversible conditions. They are rigorously reviewed by both Catholic and non Catholic medical experts. Personal physicians that know the history of the patient are interviewed and all medical records are reviewed. They cure has to be almost spontaneous and within the narrowest of windows between the time of prayer and cure. I forget all the rest, but the list is actually quite impressive if you believe the standards are actually being met. That's the question mark.

Now, wait a second, Classhandicapper.

Are you telling me that a Pope can die, and then, years after his death, details of some past and previously unreported "miracle" can surface...which, after the signature of the current Pope is applied, is enough to elevate this deceased Pope to the level of a true Saint?

And 50 years from now...people who don't know any better will be praying to John Paul II...thinking that he somehow breathed the same rarefied air as Jesus...and some of the early Christian Saints?

I thought that "real" Saints endured considerable hardships as a result of their faith.

I didn't think that they sat in golden thrones...:rolleyes:

[tucker6]

Now, wait a second, Classhandicapper.

Are you telling me that a Pope can die, and then, years after his death, details of some past and previously unreported "miracle" can surface...which, after the signature of the current Pope is applied, is enough to elevate this deceased Pope to the level of a true Saint?

And 50 years from now...people who don't know any better will be praying to John Paul II...thinking that he somehow breathed the same rarefied air as Jesus...and some of the early Christian Saints?

I thought that "real" Saints endured considerable hardships as a result of their faith.

I didn't think that they sat in golden thrones...:rolleyes:
You heathen. I just hope Saint John Paul isn't reading Pace Advantage forums right now from his golden throne.

[classhandicapper]

Now, wait a second, Classhandicapper.

Are you telling me that a Pope can die, and then, years after his death, details of some past and previously unreported "miracle" can surface...which, after the signature of the current Pope is applied, is enough to elevate this deceased Pope to the level of a true Saint?

And 50 years from now...people who don't know any better will be praying to John Paul II...thinking that he somehow breathed the same rarefied air as Jesus...and some of the early Christian Saints?

I thought that "real" Saints endured considerable hardships as a result of their faith.

I didn't think that they sat in golden thrones...:rolleyes:

I'm not sure on all the details, but I'm pretty sure the miracles have to be current otherwise they could not be investigated.

I vaguely remember something about "hardship and suffering" (especially due to your faith) as being a common attribute of saints, but I don't know if it's a requirement. I think you just had to have lead an especially pious life. It has been a long time since grade school for me.

[highnote]

Joseph Campbell made a comment that relates to this thread. I am paraphrasing his words: If you believe in God it doesn't really matter whether your belief is true or false. There is no way to prove or disprove your belief. This is the role of faith.

It doesn't matter whether Pope John Paul actually performed miracles. There is no way to prove or disprove it. It all comes down to faith.

Does it really matter whether or not Pope John Paul is a declared a saint? If believing that Pope John Paul is a saint helps keep people on a good moral path then what is the harm?

[boxcar]

Wouldn't praying to someone other than God (Jesus) be considered false idolatry and thus a violation of the ten commandments?

Well...actually it would be genuine idolatry. :)

But, yes, idolatry is strictly forbidden throughout the bible.

Boxcar

[thaskalos]

Well...actually it would be genuine idolatry. :)

But, yes, idolatry is strictly forbidden throughout the bible.

Boxcar
Our priests claim that the saints provide a great service to humanity by acting as "in-betweens" on our behalf, during our prayers to God.

Supposedly, man is not qualified to speak to God directly...

[Show Me the Wire]

Wouldn't praying to someone other than God (Jesus) be considered false idolatry and thus a violation of the ten commandments?

Simple answer.

No, not to a saint. You ask for the intercession or help from the saint in asking God to grant your prayer to God. The saint is not worshiped as God, and therefore it is not idolatry. It is akin to asking a prayer partner(s) to pray intercessory prayers for the granting of your supplication to God.

[PaceAdvantage]

But they are attributing these miracles to John Paul II. Are they not? I guess they left out the part where all the credit goes to God, and JP2 was simply a go-between. I bet if I were a better Catholic, I'd have know that this was implied...

[Show Me the Wire]

Yes, PA JP2 gets the kudos as being a VIP intercessor to God for supplications of cures.

[PaceAdvantage]

All this begs the question. Why would an all-knowing, all-powerful, never in error God need a go-between?

[Show Me the Wire]

All this begs the question. Why would an all-knowing, all-powerful, never in error God need a go-between?

For your reading pleasure:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08070a.htm

[tucker6]

For your reading pleasure:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08070a.htm
heavy reading, but still doesn't answer Pace's question. If God loves all of us and hears all of us and is fantastically omnipotent and caring, then why does he need a supporting cast to help him decide what is in someone's heart and whether he should provide a "miracle" to them?

[Steve 'StatMan']

There is likely a lot of goodness in the heart of those who receive miracles as well as those who do not. Perhaps it's a combintion of God's love for the declared saint, the perons recieving it, and God wanting to send forth an exceptional physical sign of God's love.

Or, maybe with the recently deceased John Gandolfini (faith unknown to me) maybe God could 'do him a favor'.

Definitely believe that the saint candidate is interceding or advocating, not being worshiped as a god. I think many non-Catholics have this misconception of Catholics, and I will admit it sure seems that some Catholics sure act like they're praying as if the Saint is a god when observing or the way they talk.

Yes, we all, including Catholics are allowed and encouraged to pray directly to God through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, the Holy Trinity, God experienced in Three Persons, although I prefer to think as in Three Ways.

[Show Me the Wire]

heavy reading, but still doesn't answer Pace's question. If God loves all of us and hears all of us and is fantastically omnipotent and caring, then why does he need a supporting cast to help him decide what is in someone's heart and whether he should provide a "miracle" to them?

With all due respect, I think there are several different questions involved.

My answers to PA were trying to explain his question about idolatry and the use of his phrase a go-between (mediator). The phrase go-between is incorrect application to an intercessor. An intercessor is a supporter not a mediator, just like the example I originally used about using a friend as a prayer buddy asking that your prayer be granted.

The question about God needing a go-between is related to Christ specifically. The main object of His mediation is to restore the friendship between God and man. The article I posted with clickable links goes on to state, "The subject of Christ's mediation belongs properly to the articles ATONEMENT; JESUS CHRIST; REDEMPTION. See also St. Thomas, III.26; and the treatises on the Incarnation." Following these links should give explanations for the reason of Christ's role as mediator.

Your question is why God needs support to grant a miracle. The short answer is He doesn't. There are many reported miracles obtained without intercessory prayer. However, it seems most miraculous cures do have the element of intercessory prayer.


Also, the original questions may have been focused incorrectly. The questions are focused on God's needs, maybe the should focus on why God believes we need these actions and how we benefit and not how God benefits.

[thaskalos]

With all due respect, I think there are several different questions involved.

My answers to PA were trying to explain his question about idolatry and the use of his phrase a go-between (mediator). The phrase go-between is incorrect application to an intercessor. An intercessor is a supporter not a mediator, just like the example I originally used about using a friend as a prayer buddy asking that your prayer be granted.

The question about God needing a go-between is related to Christ specifically. The main object of His mediation is to restore the friendship between God and man. The article I posted with clickable links goes on to state, "The subject of Christ's mediation belongs properly to the articles ATONEMENT; JESUS CHRIST; REDEMPTION. See also St. Thomas, III.26; and the treatises on the Incarnation." Following these links should give explanations for the reason of Christ's role as mediator.

Your question is why God needs support to grant a miracle. The short answer is He doesn't. There are many reported miracles obtained without intercessory prayer. However, it seems most miraculous cures do have the element of intercessory prayer.


Also, the original questions may have been focused incorrectly. The questions are focused on God's needs, maybe the should focus on why God believes we need these actions and how we benefit and not how God benefits.

That may be so...by it begs the question:

If a single miracle is enough of a reason to instill John Paul II as a legitimate "saint"...then what about all those well-known televangelists...who have obviously cured many, many people?

Do they deserve no official recognition at all?

[Show Me the Wire]

thaskalos:

I believe you need at least 2 miracles, which I think you Know according to your background. Also you know there is a strict procedure as to how the investigation works.

I guess when one of those about all those well-known televangelists die someone may be able to submit their name as a candidate.

But then of course you are asking an entirely different question than originally asked.

Every answer I or someone else answers another question is begat like tucker6' s question about why God needs something, which birthed your question. I suggest any discussion about sainthood besides JP2 should be discussed in the Religion Thread in off topic.

[classhandicapper]

thaskalos:

I believe you need at least 2 miracles,

Correct.

As someone pointed out, there are cases of spontaneous cures from cancer etc... without prayer. So where's the linkage?

That's why the window is extremely narrow and you have to do it twice.

The chances is finding one of those extremely rare cases within a week or so of prayer beginning is probably infinitesimal. Doing it twice seems incalculable. But some have 3 or more associated with them.

I think the standard is solid.

The question is whether any of the cases are frauds. You would hope they are doing as good as job of vetting the "cured" people, their personal physicians, etc...