After TC races, who is the best 3yo?

[horses4courses]

With yesterday's Belmont in the books, who do you think is the best 3yo?
There won't be too many choices in the poll, and if you like a filly you will have to vote "other" and explain your thoughts.

[thaskalos]

Normandy Invasion.

[thaskalos]

Normandy Invasion.

The Kentucky Derby was the deciding factor for my choice.

The top three finishers in the Derby all got great trips given the pace of the race...and they all bombed in their subsequent starts -- to validate the opinion that the Derby was heavily influenced by the "dynamics" of the race.

There also were three horses in the field who got bad trips...and still made respectable showings given the circumstances. Palace Malice got the worst trip of all, and understandably finished further back than the other two disadvantaged horses...but he came back to win the Belmont.

Oxbow got a bad trip in the Derby...and came back to win the Preakness.

But there was another horse who got an even worse trip than Oxbow in the Derby...and yet, this horse recorded the best race of all...regardless of the circumstances. He was the horse that I wanted to see return to the track...but I haven't seen him yet. Normandy Invasion.

[BlueChip@DRF]

It was mentioned in yesterday's Belmont telecast: I've Struck A Nerve

[TheEdge07]

Abstraction- David Carroll 's Pulpit colt improving right in time for a summer campaign.Stall's Departing cant be ruled out..

[LottaKash]

Pretty drab 3-yo crowd this year, imo....Of course somebody will come out on top by year's end, but for the life of me, I really couldn't tell you at this juncture who I could honestly say I would root for to take the top honor for 3yo's.. No interest this year for me....Blah group....Honestly sad about that, tho...

[nijinski]

Three different winners in the Classics doesn't help at all . We will need to see the Travers , the BC and Fall meet .

Dogwood came out of this in good shape though so far . Palice Malice will have a lot of European interest with the classic distance win with a horse that has a strong line of top turf blood and stamina on the female side . HOY Curlin as his sire sweetens the deal .

[cj]

But there was another horse who got an even worse trip than Oxbow in the Derby...and yet, this horse recorded the best race of all...regardless of the circumstances. He was the horse that I wanted to see return to the track...but I haven't seen him yet. Normandy Invasion.

Such is racing in 2013. His trainers should feel like a knucklehead right now.

[Tom]

OK, we have a vote for a maiden winner.
Says it all. :D

[OTM Al]

I'll go with Beholder. Several very nice fillies again this year.

[nijinski]

I'll go with Beholder. Several very nice fillies again this year.

:ThmbUp: Cannot disagree at all !

[Shelby]

I voted Oxbow.

[rastajenk]

Why does NI get a pass when all the others that finished around him in the Derb get a knock? Winless this year, nowhere on the season's High Beyer list, a fistful of excuses...best of the year so far? :confused: Maybe the most potential (debatable), certainly not on year-to-date performances.

[thaskalos]

Why does NI get a pass when all the others that finished around him in the Derb get a knock? Winless this year, nowhere on the season's High Beyer list, a fistful of excuses...best of the year so far? :confused: Maybe the most potential (debatable), certainly not on year-to-date performances.

Normandy Invasion's Derby race did not resemble the races of those who finished ahead of him.

And I didn't interpret the meaning of the question of this thread to be about who is the most "decorated" three year-old so far. The man asked for our opinion on which three year-old is BEST. And if they all lined up again...Normandy Invasion would get my enthusiastic support.

It's as simple as that.

[PhantomOnTour]

No love for Rydilluc or Noble Tune?

[Robert Fischer]

voted Other
= Verrazano.

I could be wrong. Thought he was better than these guys before the Derby. No one else did enough in the TC races to convince me otherwise.

Verrazano had a bad trip in the derby, going way to fast early. I can forgive his tiring in the Derby. Obviously he'll have to make a strong comeback.

Orb is a pro, and Oxbow is all heart.

Palace Malice definitely has some upside with his good speed, and ability to get a distance.

[CincyHorseplayer]

I voted other because after this seemingly promising 3yo crop in February flattened out I was wanting to vote TBD.If were throwing it out there though I'll say Dreaming Of Julia.That performance was no accident.Not at that level on a fairly even track.That was dominant for a 3yo.She explodes bigtime somewhere and makes me right as the sun coming up!:cool:

[CincyHorseplayer]

The Kentucky Derby was the deciding factor for my choice.

The top three finishers in the Derby all got great trips given the pace of the race...and they all bombed in their subsequent starts -- to validate the opinion that the Derby was heavily influenced by the "dynamics" of the race.

There also were three horses in the field who got bad trips...and still made respectable showings given the circumstances. Palace Malice got the worst trip of all, and understandably finished further back than the other two disadvantaged horses...but he came back to win the Belmont.

Oxbow got a bad trip in the Derby...and came back to win the Preakness.

But there was another horse who got an even worse trip than Oxbow in the Derby...and yet, this horse recorded the best race of all...regardless of the circumstances. He was the horse that I wanted to see return to the track...but I haven't seen him yet. Normandy Invasion.

He was my 1/3rd bet on Derby day and I bet him heavy with Orb in the exacta.Looked great for a minute!I can't wait to see him again because he's not a deep closer type.He got totally victimized in the Wood with that absurd pace.

[elysiantraveller]

I voted NI and Thask pretty much covered it.

:ThmbUp: Thask

[tucker6]

Normandy Invasion's Derby race did not resemble the races of those who finished ahead of him.

And I didn't interpret the meaning of the question of this thread to be about who is the most "decorated" three year-old so far. The man asked for our opinion on which three year-old is BEST. And if they all lined up again...Normandy Invasion would get my enthusiastic support.

It's as simple as that.
What do the connections say about this wonder horse's next race?

[ManU918]

I voted other because after this seemingly promising 3yo crop in February flattened out I was wanting to vote TBD.If were throwing it out there though I'll say Dreaming Of Julia.That performance was no accident.Not at that level on a fairly even track.That was dominant for a 3yo.She explodes bigtime somewhere and makes me right as the sun coming up!:cool:

We should be seeing her again soon in he Mother Goose.

[pondman]

I've thought Orb was the most over hyped horse of the decade. But I've already paid for my seat at the BC. After you all forget about ORB, I'll be betting on him in the BC. Yep. Give him 8 weeks to recover and he'll be beating up these 3 year olds. He'll be ready this fall.

[sammy the sage]

this thread is like who is the BEST BREED of dog....

so it's gonna depend on THE distance as FAR as which horse is best...pun intended...

and track surface....

[iceknight]

No love for Rydilluc or Noble Tune? Noble Tune had a shot at the Penn National Mile.. he blew it...


I will also add why Oxbow made the cut for me. among the choices and even among most other 3 yo that are running currently..(not sidelined)...


Oxbow has had a long campaign and he still is not "tired" - the bad pace got him in the Derby.. but even there, I did not expect to come 1st.. but maybe on the board. In Preakness, he led, controlled and was not challenged by another jockey - and ran away to win.

He did quite well in the Belmont.. and did was in the lead briefly and held on for 2nd at 1.5 miles..

But I am quite impressed with both Orb and Oxbow now.. Orb, save for that toss in the Preakness (where he finished 4th still?) managed to be the ONLY horse to make a closing attempt in Belmont.. even after such a gruelling campaign.. I have to hand it to Orb and Oxbow.
In recent times.. I like Point Given the most. (1 hr video on Belmont -Point given (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ICUdkNSNJ0) )

[wiffleball whizz]

Wonder if we will see a palace malice oxbow speed dual in the Haskell....that would be a good race!! It can be a 8/5 2/1 special

I seriously can't remember a horse paying more then $10 in the Haskell is my life.....it's the chalkfest of chalkfests

[cordep17]

My first intuition was to select Oxbow, but I decided to go with Verrazano.

Before the Derby, I thought he was the best horse in the field. He was undefeated and would consistently win in style. He got sucked up in that Derby pace and finished it up in the back of the pack. With the excuses of the slop, the pace, and the distance, I'm going to hold out for Verrazano.

This crop is pretty dang weak. Oxbow has proven he is the best of the classic horses with his consistency against these foes at the classic distance. Verrazano will come back and kill at 7-8.5 Furlongs. His quality in that distance range will surpass any of these horses' quality at 9+.

[wiffleball whizz]

Wasn't orb a lock to win the triple crown 5 weeks ago? Lolololol I know he won the derby and I can't call him a fraud but I don't see this horse winning a grade 1 the rest of the year.....and if the derby wasnt sloppy whose to say where orb would have finished......let's just say I wouldn't bet orb with foodstamps ever again

[CincyHorseplayer]

We should be seeing her again soon in he Mother Goose.

Hell yeah.Waiting for the other shoe to drop.Sometimes when I'm watching I get that cold on the back of the neck.Maybe because I sense a score in the air or something special.She gave everybody that chill that day!I'm a player and a rah rah guy.Can't wait to see her unveiled.

[Father Guy]

Surprised no one has mentioned Violence.
Carried 6lb more than Orb in the Fountain of Youth and rather like those earlybirds in the Derby whose subsequent runs have shown that race disguised their real merit, he compromised his own chance by being too close to the strong pace in contrast to Orb who only got to him late.
OK he's retired but that shouldn't detract from what he achieved that day.

[Cholly]

Even the NY Times is tossing laurels all around:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/10/sports/in-lieu-of-triple-crown-three-worthy-champions.html?ref=sports&_r=1&

fwiw, I voted Oxbow--he reminds me of Shackleford, and that's a good thing!

[Leparoux]

Oxbow is the only one I trust to show up every time.

[classhandicapper]

Normandy Invasion's Derby race did not resemble the races of those who finished ahead of him.

And I didn't interpret the meaning of the question of this thread to be about who is the most "decorated" three year-old so far. The man asked for our opinion on which three year-old is BEST. And if they all lined up again...Normandy Invasion would get my enthusiastic support.

It's as simple as that.

I see the appeal of NI. I even started a thread about him after the Derby, but I don't think his trip was as bad as Palace Malice or Oxbow. He moved prematurely and it almost certainly cost him second, but he was well back off the early pace when it was really savage up front and he has yet to confirm that form.

[DeltaLover]

As usually is the case during the last decade, I do not think there exists a horse that I could classify as 'best' of his age.

The three TC winners plus Verazano (I believe others can be added to the list but four are enough for the sake of the conversation ) are pretty much indistinguishable, admittedly good, but not great racehorses.

The why is not the subject of the thread, but I think it is easy to detect the decline of the American Thoroughbred, who has failed to improve the breed since the mid '80s.

This becomes more observable considering the top level horses who look like comets, shining for several months, before they retire to stud leaving very little racing memories and legacy behind...

Although for betting purposes this is good, since it makes it easy to look for flukes who will burn a lot of money in their subsequent races, it is still bad since it does not create the conditions to attract new gamblers, something that would had been significantly easier having a new super horse, like Secreatariat or Settle Slew for example.

[classhandicapper]

I think it's unlikely that the Orb that competed in the Florida Derby and Kentucky Derby is the same horse that competed in the Preakness and Belmont. I think he's almost certainly "over the top" to some extent and in need of a freshening. Shug was quoted as saying he was very tired after the Belmont and would probably be sent to a farm for awhile before returning later this summer.

I also don't think it's correct to compare his Derby trip with Revolutionary and Golden Soul. All 3 benefitted from the hot Derby pace, but Orb took an overland route and the others got the benefit of the hot pace and a ground saving ride. Plus, Orb was actually the favorite in the Derby. It wasn't like he was considered unlikely to run well going in and just got lucky.

To me, based on accomplishment etc.. Oxbow had the best series. He's moving forward and Orb is moving backwards. Palace Malice is also good, but he skipped the Preakness and got the better trip in the Belmont.

[iceknight]

This is what Pletcher thinks of the 3 yo division.. he manages to mention Oxbow.. running 1 and 2..

ewU7r8irp7g?t=20stube

[horses4courses]

voted Other
= Verrazano.

I could be wrong. Thought he was better than these guys before the Derby. No one else did enough in the TC races to convince me otherwise.

Verrazano had a bad trip in the derby, going way to fast early. I can forgive his tiring in the Derby. Obviously he'll have to make a strong comeback.

Orb is a pro, and Oxbow is all heart.

Palace Malice definitely has some upside with his good speed, and ability to get a distance.

News of Verrazano from Brisnet:

Grade 1 hero Verrazano, who suffered his first career loss when 14th in the Kentucky Derby last out, blazed a bullet, best of 51, half-mile in :47 2/5 in advance of the Grade 3, $150,000 Pegasus on June 16 at Monmouth Park.

[DeltaLover]

News of Verrazano from Brisnet:

Grade 1 hero Verrazano, who suffered his first career loss when 14th in the Kentucky Derby last out, blazed a bullet, best of 51, half-mile in :47 2/5 in advance of the Grade 3, $150,000 Pegasus on June 16 at Monmouth Park.

If he manages to run in the race, he will be the prohibitive odds on favorite since following today's mentality none of the horses in his league will show up. You will have a race of a few starters, most of them local heroes or second tier TC challengers desperately trying to pick up a fraction of the purse. On the other hand, the champ, will give a show crushing its mediocre competition, adding to his purses and filling his pedigree with graded winnings while returning the generous overlayered win price of 2.80!

Wow, what a win - win situation !!!

[Rex Phinney]

9 Furlongs or less goes to Oxbow for sure. Beyond that I still feel comfortable with Orb. He passed more horses than anyone in the Belmont.

I can't pull horses like Verrazano and Violence back into the mix. I think once they start skipping 3 year old races they need a few races to catch up to the seasoning a horse like Oxbow or Orb now has.

Normandy Invasion looks good doing everything, problem is he just never wins. He reminds me of Ice Box, looks like he is always going to get there...........next time.

[PhantomOnTour]

If he manages to run in the race, he will be the prohibitive odds on favorite since following today's mentality none of the horses in his league will show up. You will have a race of a few starters, most of them local heroes or second tier TC challengers desperately trying to pick up a fraction of the purse. On the other hand, the champ, will give a show crushing its mediocre competition, adding to his purses and filling his pedigree with graded winnings while returning the generous overlayered win price of 2.80!

Wow, what a win - win situation !!!
Agreed - the biggest other names nominated to the Pegasus are Abraham, Battier and Itsmyluckyday...and I doubt we'll see him there.
Many noms ran last wknd so they obviously won't show up...Incognito, Capo Bastone, Always In A Tiz, Irsaal

Looks like a cakewalk

[Valuist]

9 Furlongs or less goes to Oxbow for sure. Beyond that I still feel comfortable with Orb. He passed more horses than anyone in the Belmont.

I can't pull horses like Verrazano and Violence back into the mix. I think once they start skipping 3 year old races they need a few races to catch up to the seasoning a horse like Oxbow or Orb now has.

Normandy Invasion looks good doing everything, problem is he just never wins. He reminds me of Ice Box, looks like he is always going to get there...........next time.

Both the Preakness and Belmont are longer than 9 furlongs and Oxbow easily outfinished Orb in both races.

[Rex Phinney]

Both the Preakness and Belmont are longer than 9 furlongs and Oxbow easily outfinished Orb in both races.

I'm in no way saying Oxbow is a toss beyond 9F. No way.

But let's be honest the setup he got in the Preakness was off the charts.

He is a horse that is going to show up every time. but none of them have shown they are good enough to win if the setup doesn't fall into their lap.

So in a 10F race at Santa Anita with no speed in the race, give me Oxbow.

And in a 10F race at Churchill with lots of speed, give me Orb.

None of them are good enough to be the "best" 3YO every time they race.

[Valuist]

I'm in no way saying Oxbow is a toss beyond 9F. No way.

But let's be honest the setup he got in the Preakness was off the charts.

He is a horse that is going to show up every time. but none of them have shown they are good enough to win if the setup doesn't fall into their lap.

So in a 10F race at Santa Anita with no speed in the race, give me Oxbow.

And in a 10F race at Churchill with lots of speed, give me Orb.

None of them are good enough to be the "best" 3YO every time they race.

His setup in the Belmont was very difficult. There was lots of speed in the race, and they went very fast for a 1 1/2 mile race. Just look where Freedom Child and Frac Daddy finished. Yet Oxbow still had the energy to finish 2nd.

[Rex Phinney]

His setup in the Belmont was very difficult. There was lots of speed in the race, and they went very fast for a 1 1/2 mile race. Just look where Freedom Child and Frac Daddy finished. Yet Oxbow still had the energy to finish 2nd.

Freedom Child and Frac Daddy are borderline G1 horses, and surely don't belong in a 12F race.

Orb won the closers race and Oxbow won the front runners race. They finished 2nd & 3rd in the Belmont. The only reason to pick one over the other is because you just "like" one better.

[Striker]

Rating these horses from the begining of the year up until June 8th, I think it is pretty easy to pick Orb. Oxbow besides his Preakness win has a G3 win in the LeComte, while Palace Malice just won his 1st graded race. Orb has won the G2 FOY and the G1 Fla Derby and the Kentucky Derby. Obviously the rest of the year will determine more, and IMO Oxbow and PM look to be headed in a better direction than Orb right now.

[DeltaLover]

Rating these horses from the begining of the year up until June 8th, I think it is pretty easy to pick Orb. Oxbow besides his Preakness win has a G3 win in the LeComte, while Palace Malice just won his 1st graded race. Orb has won the G2 FOY and the G1 Fla Derby and the Kentucky Derby. Obviously the rest of the year will determine more, and IMO Oxbow and PM look to be headed in a better direction than Orb right now.

I agree that Orb is probably the more accomplished horse so far but I think that this does not necessary makes it the best one.

[MutuelClerk]

Captaintreacherous

[Cratos]

Who is the best 2013 3yo to date? That is a very good question and the answer is very easy if you base it on the body of work performed by the obviously contenders thus far and it will be in my opinion, Orb.

Therefore let’s look at the facts. Both Orb and Palace Malice have run 6 times each in 2013 and Orb has 4 victories and missed the tote board 1 time with a 4th place finish in the Preakness; on the other hand Palace Malice got his first win this year with a putrid performance in the Belmont. Yes, he finished ahead of both Orb and Oxbow; and both of them had equally dismal Belmont performances. Additionally Oxbow has gone to post 7 times this year with 2 victories and in-the-money finishes 4 times.

The evidence doesn’t stop there because of Orb’s 4 victories this year he has 2 GI’s and 1 GII stakes win, Oxbow has 2 stakes victories; one being the GI Preakness and the other being the GIII LeComte at the Fairgrounds by 11+ lengths and then loss his next two starts; both of which was GII stakes. This brings us to Palace Malice whose only victory prior to his Belmont win was a Maiden Special Weight victory.

Now the peanut gallery is saying that Orb is receding and the other two are moving forward because Orb didn’t win either the Preakness or the Belmont; and because he finished behind both horses (Oxbow in both races) he should now be relegated to third place.

However history is better a judge than impromptu emotions and we should look back to 1975 when Wajima a very good 3yo beat the great Forego twice in the same season, but when the voters casted their votes, Forego was the voted the 1975 Horse-of-the-Year because as I inferred earlier, it is better to judge by the horse’s body of work rather than impromptu emotion or spurious rhetoric.

Lastly, in all if not some horse races; some horse get a better trip than others in the race and some horse might be short-changed by racing luck in a race, but that is the nature of a horse race. The woulda, coulda, shoulda is just yesterday’s dreams by losers.

[Fager Fan]

Accomplishments don't necessarily equal "best." Orb has more accomplishments to date, but when Orb and Oxbow met up with each other in the races they both were targeting, Oxbow came away as the superior horse in my opinion. Oxbow made his presence felt in all three races, though he won only one. Orb may as well have not been in the Preakness or Belmont - he made no impact in either race. I'd rather have Oxbow in my barn than Orb.

[iceknight]

Accomplishments don't necessarily equal "best." Orb has more accomplishments to date, but when Orb and Oxbow met up with each other in the races they both were targeting, Oxbow came away as the superior horse in my opinion. Oxbow made his presence felt in all three races, though he won only one. Orb may as well have not been in the Preakness or Belmont - he made no impact in either race. I'd rather have Oxbow in my barn than Orb. No, Oxbow did NOT make his presence felt in the Derby. Finishing 6th does not count for anything.. not until they have any wagering beyond Pentafecta. Yes, in terms of handicapping for the next race, Oxbow's finish after being up early with the pace mattered. But for the purpose of the Derby finish line itself, I don't think he even got a share of the purse?

Inside the TC races, Oxbow has a first and a second which is better than Orb's 1st and 3rd. By the way, I did vote for Oxbow. I am not bashing him, just to be clear.

[Rex Phinney]

Accomplishments don't necessarily equal "best." Orb has more accomplishments to date, but when Orb and Oxbow met up with each other in the races they both were targeting, Oxbow came away as the superior horse in my opinion. Oxbow made his presence felt in all three races, though he won only one. Orb may as well have not been in the Preakness or Belmont - he made no impact in either race. I'd rather have Oxbow in my barn than Orb.

Yeah, who needs accomplishments, winning these races, Grade 1s and Kentucky Derbys, that doesn't mean anything.

Get a grip, Oxbow won the Preakness when it was handed to him on a platter. He also comes out of a barn that could overcook him at any moment. I think Oxbow is a good horse no doubt, as it sits he has had a very good three or four weeks. Before that his resume has some holes in it.

[Bullet Plane]

Big question mark for me on this one:

1) Orb looks like a one dimensional closer to me ...

2) Oxbow looks like a one dimensional need to lead type.

12) Palace Malice: jury is still out for me. Did he finally get his act together? Or was the win at Belmont a fluke based on pedigree for the distance?

I'll need to see a few more races from this crew. I'm thinking that there is probably another 3 year old out there, that we haven't seen the best of yet, ...that will prove to be the dominant 3 year old this year.

So, I vote other TBD.

[Fager Fan]

Yeah, who needs accomplishments, winning these races, Grade 1s and Kentucky Derbys, that doesn't mean anything.

Get a grip, Oxbow won the Preakness when it was handed to him on a platter. He also comes out of a barn that could overcook him at any moment. I think Oxbow is a good horse no doubt, as it sits he has had a very good three or four weeks. Before that his resume has some holes in it.

The question wasn't who we'd give the Championship trophy to if it was to be given right now. I answered the question, and it's an opinion quite based on reality.

[iceknight]

Normandy Invasion is 7th in the list of 3 yr olds.. according to an NTRA poll.. not sure who they polled?

http://www.ntra.com/business_development/files/NTRA%20Thoroughbred%20Poll%20Summary.pdf

[thaskalos]

Normandy Invasion is 7th in the list of 3 yr olds.. according to an NTRA poll.. not sure who they polled?

http://www.ntra.com/business_development/files/NTRA%20Thoroughbred%20Poll%20Summary.pdf

Itsmyluckyday, Mylute and Revolutionary ahead of Normandy Invasion?

Funny stuff...

[Tom]

IMLD and Revolutionary, definitely.
They have actually won stakes races.

[rastajenk]

Apparently that doesn't count for some folks. Latent or kinetic talent is just as important. :p

[classhandicapper]

Now the peanut gallery is saying that Orb is receding and the other two are moving forward because Orb didn’t win either the Preakness or the Belmont; and because he finished behind both horses (Oxbow in both races) he should now be relegated to third place.



It's not so much that he should be relegated to 3rd place based on what has been accomplished so far. It's that the season is not over yet. There is more racing to come. So if he is receding and the others improving he is in trouble. Unless he turns the tables (like in the Travers for example) he's clearly going to find himself behind the others in accomplishments by year end.

[raybo]

voted Other
= Verrazano.

I could be wrong. Thought he was better than these guys before the Derby. No one else did enough in the TC races to convince me otherwise.

Verrazano had a bad trip in the derby, going way to fast early. I can forgive his tiring in the Derby. Obviously he'll have to make a strong comeback.

Orb is a pro, and Oxbow is all heart.

Palace Malice definitely has some upside with his good speed, and ability to get a distance.

I agree, before the Derby he was undefeated, the pace killed him in the Derby. Sorry he didn't make it back for the Belmont.

[Lord Longshot]

Accomplishments don't necessarily equal "best." Orb has more accomplishments to date, but when Orb and Oxbow met up with each other in the races they both were targeting, Oxbow came away as the superior horse in my opinion. Oxbow made his presence felt in all three races, though he won only one. Orb may as well have not been in the Preakness or Belmont - he made no impact in either race. I'd rather have Oxbow in my barn than Orb.
How is it that Oxbow came away the superior horse? You said he made his presence felt in all three races, but he didn't. He finished 6th in the Derby and was never close to winning. And like Orb, he failed to win the Belmont too. So they both came out of it with just one win, making it a reach to say either one was superior to the other.

[CincyHorseplayer]

How is it that Oxbow came away the superior horse? You said he made his presence felt in all three races, but he didn't. He finished 6th in the Derby and was never close to winning. And like Orb, he failed to win the Belmont too. So they both came out of it with just one win, making it a reach to say either one was superior to the other.

Some people think that outrunning another horse without hitting the winner's circle counts for more than what each horse has accomplished this year.Personally I think we should judge after the BC.

[Striker]

How is it that Oxbow came away the superior horse? You said he made his presence felt in all three races, but he didn't. He finished 6th in the Derby and was never close to winning. And like Orb, he failed to win the Belmont too. So they both came out of it with just one win, making it a reach to say either one was superior to the other.
And all these years I thought it was the Kentucky Derby that was the one race that everyone involved in racing wanted to win. This thread makes it seem like the Preakness is the holy grail for 3yos.

[raybo]

And all these years I thought it was the Kentucky Derby that was the one race that everyone involved in racing wanted to win. This thread makes it seem like the Preakness is the holy grail for 3yos.

While the Derby may be the most prestigious race for 3 yos, the combination of the 3 TC races is what defines a superior 3 yo. Three different tracks, 3 different distances, 3 different surfaces, takes a superior horse to conquer all 3. This year was an anomaly, of sorts, killer pace in the Derby, plus slop, a snail's pace in the Preakness, and a more normal pace in the Belmont. This year, if there had been a TC winner, would certainly have defined a 3 yo superior horse. But, we had 3 different winners, so there was no standout horse this year during the TC. Prior to the Derby, we had a potential standout in Varrazano, that's as close as we came to a superior horse.

[Tom]

How is it that Oxbow came away the superior horse? You said he made his presence felt in all three races, but he didn't. He finished 6th in the Derby and was never close to winning. And like Orb, he failed to win the Belmont too. So they both came out of it with just one win, making it a reach to say either one was superior to the other.


Orb has a win and a place in the TC races. Beats a win and third.
Oxbow's Derby was a very god performance against the races shape. Orb was helped greatly by the bias.

[iceknight]

Orb has a win and a place in the TC races. Beats a win and third.
Oxbow's Derby was a very god performance against the races shape. Orb was helped greatly by the bias. i think you are mixing up Oxbow with Orb.. this is what happens when you Overanalyze a situation :lol: :lol: :lol: I couldn't resist that. Itmustbemyluckyday I get to make fun of your mixup.

[Rex Phinney]

Orb has a win and a place in the TC races. Beats a win and third.
Oxbow's Derby was a very god performance against the races shape. Orb was helped greatly by the bias.

Run the numbers to calculate the average finish of the two in the three TC races.

The Derby did setup perfectly for Orb, just like the Preakness setup perfectly for Oxbow.

Oxbow's Derby was no better than Orb's Preakness or Belmont. In the Preakness the horse got kind of wobbled for about a half mile, by the end he WAS passing horses again, and in the Belmont he passed more horses than anyone else.

This is all of course ignoring all Orb did (and what Oxbow didn't do) before the Derby was even run.

I think we should all also keep to reality a bit with how much each might race the rest of the year, while we would like to see where each might go with 4 starts in the next 6 months, that isn't going to happen.

[NJ Stinks]

I voted other because of Black Onyx. In 5 starts, Black Onyx won on dirt, turf, and AWT - all at a mile or more. I admire versatility in a horse.

[menifee]

I voted other because of Black Onyx. In 5 starts, Black Onyx won on dirt, turf, and AWT - all at a mile or more. I admire versatility in a horse.

I really liked this horse as well. He had a tough Derby week - 1 post and then injured. I can't wait to see him come back after the injury. Hopefully, he will be a player in the fall - they have already ruled out Haskell.

I also liked Hear the Ghost as well.

[Cratos]

It's not so much that he should be relegated to 3rd place based on what has been accomplished so far. It's that the season is not over yet. There is more racing to come. So if he is receding and the others improving he is in trouble. Unless he turns the tables (like in the Travers for example) he's clearly going to find himself behind the others in accomplishments by year end.


It would seem to me that if you would rationally adjudicate the quality of the 3yo performers to date and use just their TC performances you would use wins only because if you do not you must include in Golden Soul who didn’t win any of the TC races but finished second in the Ky Derby and was like Palace Malice who was a non-stakes winner; and a non-winner of any race except a Maiden Special Weight race until he won the Belmont.

However it should be made the distinct also that the poster who stated in their post that “Accomplishments don't necessarily equal "best" should understand that accomplishments are not equalities, but determinants which allow us to measure an occurrence or an event objectively and sometimes subjectively in deciding who or what is the” best.”

Furthermore I do agree that if all of the horses who are now considered to be contenders for end-of-the-year 3yo honors continue to compete and do so with winning distinction in such upcoming races as the Haskell, the Travers, the JCGC, or the BC Classic to name a few; we will a clearer and defined conclusion who is the “best” 3yo of 2013.

[Tom]

This is all of course ignoring all Orb did (and what Oxbow didn't do) before the Derby was even run.

Orb did much more than Oxbow pre-derby.

That said, I think Oxbow is the better horse going forward.
Prediction - next year, the Met Mile is his.

[menifee]

If Verrazano crushes tomorrow - most will think he is the best horse as he will have a legitimate excuse from the Derby. 3 yr old honors will be his to lose because no one could differentiate themselves in the triple crown series.

[DeltaLover]

If Verrazano crushes tomorrow - most will think he is the best horse as he will have a legitimate excuse from the Derby. 3 yr old honors will be his to lose because no one could differentiate themselves in the triple crown series.

No way...

With the exception of It's My Lucky Day, Verrazano runs against nothing today. Even if he wins by open lengths, it will not be enough to make him the best of his age so far.

Excuses are just that and nothing more.

Verrazano, clearly failed to prove his superiority against the creme, so unless he manages to crash his competion in Travers (not the potatos his is running against today) or even win the Gold Cup (Curlin did it as 3yo) he will just be considered as one of the top of his age and nothing more.

[Tom]

If Verrazano crushes tomorrow - most will think he is the best horse as he will have a legitimate excuse from the Derby. 3 yr old honors will be his to lose because no one could differentiate themselves in the triple crown series.

Verrazano did. :rolleyes: ;)
Nothing is his until he beats the one who did win a TC race.
Haskell or Travers - one of them is a must win, and even then, maybe not enough if Orb takes one of them. Then, bring on the BC - this crop will not do well again elders, I think.

Lukas said it last night about Oxbox - championships are won in the Fall, not the Spring.

[raybo]

It's only June. Lots of racing left to see who the best of this bunch is. My personal belief is that some here will be shaking their heads wondering how the heck neither Orb nor Oxbow won 3 yo HOY.

[CincyHorseplayer]

It's only June. Lots of racing left to see who the best of this bunch is. My personal belief is that some here will be shaking their heads wondering how the heck neither Orb nor Oxbow won 3 yo HOY.

Absolutely Ray.This is the horseplayer's version of a premature ejaculation.

[raybo]

Mth race 11 today. "V" should win easily.

[iceknight]

Mth race 11 today. "V" should win easily. What does 57 mean?
What i meant is.. itsmyluckyday's numbers are close on this chart to V..What is considered a significant difference?

and a :2: - :6: exacta pays $3 on two dollars.. wow!

[raybo]

Too easy for Verrazano. No contest after ItsMyLuckyDay pulled up.

[raybo]

What does 57 mean?
What i meant is.. itsmyluckyday's numbers are close on this chart to V..What is considered a significant difference?

and a :2: - :6: exacta pays $3 on two dollars.. wow!

Those are feet per second velocities. Not very close between V and IMLD.

[raybo]

They let him have an easy lead, bad mistake. Verrazano could obviously have run much faster than he had to today.

[iceknight]

Thanks raybo. it's too bad imld pulled up. hope the colt is ok. Wonder why the caller does not say anything else from what he can see...

[raybo]

Thanks raybo. it's too bad imld pulled up. hope the colt is ok. Wonder why the caller does not say anything else from what he can see...

Me too, I didn't see anything but haven't looked at the replay yet. Maybe took a bad step?

[raybo]

Also had the 1 horse ranked 2nd in class/distance. The 2-1 exacta paid $45, not too bad considering only 5 runners.

[iceknight]

Also had the 1 horse ranked 2nd in class/distance. The 2-1 exacta paid $45, not too bad considering only 5 runners. I did nt bet on this race.. but if I get large payouts because the 2nd favorite pulled up (opposed to throwing his mount off etc), i would feel like it is blood money and not too happy about it. The 2-6 exacta payout was pegged at $ 3 at 2mtp.. and that did not happen, that explains the large payout..

[raybo]

I did nt bet on this race.. but if I get large payouts because the 2nd favorite pulled up (opposed to throwing his mount off etc), i would feel like it is blood money and not too happy about it. The 2-6 exacta payout was pegged at $ 3 at 2mtp.. and that did not happen, that explains the large payout..

Well, I don't think anybody gave any horse, other than these 2, much chance, and it appeared that that would have happened had IMLD not pulled up, he was just starting to move to the front. Personally, I don't think he would have beaten V anyway because the fractions were so slow early, V should have had plenty left.

No way I would have bet the 2-6 exacta anyway, and would not have bet V to win at the odds he had as they entered the gate. I needed 2/1 for that.

This race was just an interest for me, because I think so highly of Verrazano.

[iceknight]

Yeah. I had high hopes for Verrazano too.. and that was more because I have loved that bridge (driving to jfk)...which of course is named after some explorer or philosopher..
(ok,this is off topic, but I googled him again and had this guy become famous- we would be living in United States of Francesca (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_da_Verrazzano#Reputation) :lol: )

but, coming back to the racing discussion, if they ever run V on the grass, it will be interesting to see a Rydilluc vs V matchup!

[raybo]

Yeah. I had high hopes for Verrazano too.. and that was more because I have loved that bridge (driving to jfk)...which of course is named after some explorer or philosopher..
(ok,this is off topic, but I googled him again and had this guy become famous- we would be living in United States of Francesca (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_da_Verrazzano#Reputation) :lol: )

but, coming back to the racing discussion, if they ever run V on the grass, it will be interesting to see a Rydilluc vs V matchup!

I agree, his velocities are good early, middle, and late. Good qualities for the turf, IMO.

[pondman]

Wasn't orb a lock to win the triple crown 5 weeks ago? Lolololol I know he won the derby and I can't call him a fraud but I don't see this horse winning a grade 1 the rest of the year.....and if the derby wasnt sloppy whose to say where orb would have finished......let's just say I wouldn't bet orb with foodstamps ever again

You'd be wise to look at his grandpapa. He'll be back...

[raybo]

You'd be wise to look at his grandpapa. He'll be back...

Time will tell, but then many, selectively, won't remember your post, if Orb doesn't win another Grade 1 race the rest of his racing life.

My feeling, Orb is an ok horse, in specific fields and specific pace scenarios, but he doesn't impress me much, and never has. I never got on the Orb bandwagon for that reason. I tossed the Derby race because of the absurd pace and the off track.

[Leparoux]

Time will tell, but then many, selectively, won't remember your post, if Orb doesn't win another Grade 1 race the rest of his racing life.

My feeling, Orb is an ok horse, in specific fields and specific pace scenarios, but he doesn't impress me much, and never has. I never got on the Orb bandwagon for that reason. I tossed the Derby race because of the absurd pace and the off track.
You didn't like his Gulfstream races? A track that typically favors speed.

[pondman]

My feeling, Orb is an ok horse, in specific fields and specific pace scenarios, but he doesn't impress me much, and never has. I never got on the Orb bandwagon for that reason. I tossed the Derby race because of the absurd pace and the off track.

I've had the same thoughts... but not for the BC. I'll be there at SA. If orbs in a race, I will bet him. Unbridled did the same flash and burn. Then turn into a monster, and now is highly regarded. It's in Orb's genes.

[Robert Fischer]

Orb reminds me a little of Drosselmeyer.

Drosselmeyer won the Breeders Cup Classic, 2nd in the Jockey Club Gold Cup, 1st in the Belmont Stakes @3.

Classy horse who can score with his trip.

[raybo]

You didn't like his Gulfstream races? A track that typically favors speed.

As I said, I think Orb is an ok horse, certainly nothing special, under certain race conditions, that's all. Can he become a better horse? I suppose so, almost any 3yo can become better, but from what I've seen so far, the jury is still out on him.

[Rise Over Run]

For all those that believed Normandy Invasion was the best 3yo, good luck being able to see him race the rest of 2013. On his way to see a foot specialist.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/79361/normandy-invasion-to-see-foot-specialist?source=rss