Last Sunday at Aqueduct

[DeltaLover]

Players room, last Sunday at Aqueduct, before the National Anthem they are showing Belmont Stakes 1973.

Somebody throws a comment, 'he is moving like a tremendous machine' and the conversation starts among us, all horse addicts, every one talking about his favorite horse...

- Doctor was the best says one, as a four years old nobody could beat him...

- Yes, but Damascus was great as well responds his friend while the guy from the first row cannot resist and gets involved, stating that Seattle Slew was the big deal.

Another horse addict is prompt to praise RUFFIAN as the best female ever...

Of course I am not missing the opportunity to declare that my bloodhorse vote for the horse of the century was casted to KELSO...

Now the old guy two seats in my left jumps in: The horse I liked the most was.. BOLD RULER!

-He was Sec sire I am reminding him....

And the conversation goes on and on... Nobody wants to stop talking about the memories of his youth.....

Using your imagination, can you please fast forward to 40 years from today?

Let's say we are in the same players club, and the year is 2053....

Do you thing that the guys in this room will be talking about Orb, Blame and Super Saver or Smarty Jones?

Who is going to remember I will have Another, Big Brown or Tiznow?

Do you think that anyone will mention Curlin or Rachel ?

[Robert Fischer]

Zenyatta should spark some debate...

[ten2oneormore]

Rachel and Zenyatta will definitely still be talked about as it's highly unlikely there will be a run of super fillies and mares relegating R and Z to the background.As long as I'm alive Smarty Jones will be brought up and even without me I'm sure he will be an icon for the Philly area.

[thaskalos]

Rachel and Zenyatta will definitely still be talked about as it's highly unlikely there will be a run of super fillies and mares relegating R and Z to the background.As long as I'm alive Smarty Jones will be brought up and even without me I'm sure he will be an icon for the Philly area.

Zenyatta and Rachel will definitely still be talked about...but probably not in the same sentence...:cool:

[PhantomOnTour]

I would much rather be a fly on the wall in an English or Irish pub in the year 2053.
Their conversation would be much more interesting :D

galileo - sea the stars - frankel - giants causeway - swain - goldikova

[thaskalos]

Players room, last Sunday at Aqueduct, before the National Anthem they are showing Belmont Stakes 1973.

Somebody throws a comment, 'he is moving like a tremendous machine' and the conversation starts among us, all horse addicts, every one talking about his favorite horse...

- Doctor was the best says one, as a four years old nobody could beat him...

- Yes, but Damascus was great as well responds his friend while the guy from the first row cannot resist and gets involved, stating that Seattle Slew was the big deal.

Another horse addict is prompt to praise RUFFIAN as the best female ever...

Of course I am not missing the opportunity to declare that my bloodhorse vote for the horse of the century was casted to KELSO...

Now the old guy two seats in my left jumps in: The horse I liked the most was.. BOLD RULER!

-He was Sec sire I am reminding him....

And the conversation goes on and on... Nobody wants to stop talking about the memories of his youth.....

Using your imagination, can you please fast forward to 40 years from today?

Let's say we are in the same players club, and the year is 2053....

Do you thing that the guys in this room will be talking about Orb, Blame and Super Saver or Smarty Jones?

Who is going to remember I will have Another, Big Brown or Tiznow?

Do you think that anyone will mention Curlin or Rachel ?

I don't know how others feel...but Smarty Jones will forever occupy a place in my heart. :ThmbUp:

[DeltaLover]

I don't know how others feel...but Smarty Jones will forever occupy a place in my heart. :ThmbUp:

I know Thask, this occupation has something to do with the manila envelope you were talking to me about last night ;)

[RunForTheRoses]

What about Dreaming of Julia the fastest horse ever?

[RunForTheRoses]

Really there hasn't been as muh brilliance as there was in the old days. Horses have shorter racing seasons.

Zenyatta and Rachel definitely. Lava Man was a good when at the top of his game although I doubt he'll be talked about too long. Wise Dan may be reaching the highest current plateau. Big Brown and smarty were quite good for awhile.

[andtheyreoff]

I think, over the last 10 years, you can include Curlin, Ghostzapper, Rachel, and Zenyatta as top-tier horses.

Second-level, I would say Smarty Jones, Lava Man, Havre de Grace, Summer Bird, and Invasor. Game on Dude, Orb, and Wise Dan have a shot at adding their name to this list.

[Binder]

I think that as the years continue to go by with out a triple crown
Smarty Jones, oh so close finish, will still be talked about
It looked so good that year,
The owner of Birdsong saying she was sorry,

tough loss

Bill

[ten2oneormore]

Think this might be a trivia question in 50 years.

Who was the only horse to win the Kentucky Derby,Dubai World Cup, and Queen Anne Stakes?


Whether or not he is still relevant in a few decades it will be pretty impressive winning all over the world at the highest level if he pulls off the Queen Anne.

[NJ Stinks]

I expect people will remember Smarty and Rachel for sure. Out west Zenyatta is #1.

The most talented IMO was Invasor. Although Ghostzapper fans probably disagree. But Invasor had a lousy PR man and GZ spent too much time in the barn to invoke much emotion 40 years later.

[pondman]

Grade I racing has been on a downward trend since 1989. That's probably the last great racing year, when horses ran more than 5 races. Great horses. Great trainers.

Between 1989 and now I'd say Best Pal was about the best of horses with 18 stake wins, but that's being partial to California Racing.

Nothing stands out for me in the last 10 years. It's been all globetrotter racing, stunts, and feeble attempts at marketing.

How about Black Ruby the Winningest Racing Mule?

[BlueChip@DRF]

No mention of Arromanches or Zippy Chippy? :confused:

[cnollfan]

Zenyatta will be remembered, and by association, so will Blame. I have been a racing fan for 45 years and the 2010 Breeders Cup Classic was the best race I have ever seen. I was alive in the Pick 4 to Blame, but not Zenyatta. Even so, as they dueled down the stretch I did not know which horse I was rooting for more.

[RaceBookJoe]

Possibly Azeri, on the bubble Afleet Alex ?

[TheEdge07]

2053 the conversation will be about how this ERA was dominated by trainers...Trainers clipping over 40% will be the center of conversation.

[the little guy]

Zenyatta will be remembered, and by association, so will Blame. I have been a racing fan for 45 years and the 2010 Breeders Cup Classic was the best race I have ever seen. I was alive in the Pick 4 to Blame, but not Zenyatta. Even so, as they dueled down the stretch I did not know which horse I was rooting for more.


You should check out the 1978 Belmont ( among other races ) sometime. It was a pretty good one.

[Shemp Howard]

Dr.Fager was 18 for 22;

The only horses to ever finish in front of him were HOY Buckpasser, HOY Damascus, and Juvenile Champ Successor.

He was HOY, Handicap HOY, Champion SPrinter and cHMPION Turf Horse all in the same season usually carrying over 130lbs.

But that pales in comparison to have ever seen him run in the flesh.

[thespaah]

John Henry, Forego, Cigar, Affirmed, Seattle Slew....

[TheEdge07]

John Henry, Forego, Cigar, Affirmed, Seattle Slew....

Spectacular Bid

2 year old-Awesome
3 year old-Great
4 year old-Unbeatable

The Bid isn't talked about enough.

[tzipi]

Hard to compare because most horses are retired after 3yo season for HUGE breeding money today. Retired, injury or whatever they say before collecting the millions. Horses back then ran for years, go into famous battles, made for great stories. No time to do that today.


We don't know what these horses could've done and the racing they could have brought the fans. Or the fans they could've made and debates/stories that could've been talked about down the line.

[PaceAdvantage]

I expect people will remember Smarty and Rachel for sure. Out west Zenyatta is #1.

The most talented IMO was Invasor. Although Ghostzapper fans probably disagree. But Invasor had a lousy PR man and GZ spent too much time in the barn to invoke much emotion 40 years later.I suspect Smarty Jones would have given Zenyatta a serious run for her money...that's how overrated she was, ability-wise. Not downplaying her accomplishments, just her overall ability.

Perspective has been lost on many over the years it seems.

[cj]

... and GZ spent too much time in the barn to invoke much emotion 40 years later.

The biggest problem with so called stars today. Remember when stakes horses raced every three weeks, or a month at the least? You could actually judge trips and anticipate rematches. Also, trainers (ala DWL) weren't afraid to lose like they are now. Horses were judged on what they won, not the losses mixed in.

[PhantomOnTour]

The biggest problem with so called stars today. Remember when stakes horses raced every three weeks, or a month at the least? You could actually judge trips and anticipate rematches. Also, trainers (ala DWL) weren't afraid to lose like they are now. Horses were judged on what they won, not the losses mixed in.
Which is why I would put Skip Away in the conversation. I know he ran 15yrs ago and much has changed since, but he made like 35 lifetime starts and campaigned all over the country...looking for competition, not ducking it.
He also ran some huge Beyers

[PaceAdvantage]

He also ran some huge BeyersThere are no huge Beyers anymore (legitimate, repeatable ones anyway)...some would argue this isn't the horse's fault...cj has explained the cause well in the past...

[JustRalph]

No way in hell the game survives another 50 yrs.

If it does there won't be more than 10 tracks

[SharpCat]

How about Serena's Song. She ran 10 times at 2, 13 times at 3 and 15 times at 4.

[PhantomOnTour]

Mass Cap
Blue Grass
BrCup Classic
Woodbine Million
Hollywood Gold Cup
Pimlico Special
Woodward
Donn
Haskell
Jockey Club Gold Cup
(that's a lot of big wins at a lot of different tracks)

and an Eclipse award in 1996, 1997 (2), and 1998

lifetime record:
38: 18-10-6
won ten Gr1 races

*Beyer questions or not - he was a serious runner

[RunForTheRoses]

Skip Away was good, Cigar probably even better.

Others (since 1989) that impressed but most likely won't be remembered:
In Excess
Best Pal, Point Given
Gentleman
Arazi's Breeder's Cup
Serena's Song

[precocity]

Which is why I would put Skip Away in the conversation. I know he ran 15yrs ago and much has changed since, but he made like 35 lifetime starts and campaigned all over the country...looking for competition, not ducking it.
He also ran some huge Beyers
right on phantom one of my favs, remember when silver charm kept ducking him until the breeders cup classic. at least my name sake got second to him in the pimlico special!

[OTM Al]

It is the human condition to look back favorably at the past and say today's version is nowhere near as memorable. I say I've seen plenty of memorable races and runners. Ouija Board just missing in the middle leg in an injury shortened season of running of 3 straight BC F&M Turf wins. I can still see in my mind her race at Churchill. Goldikova getting those 3 straight in the BC mile and then running a very good 3rd in her 4th try when she was supposed to be done. Curlin Vs Rags to Riches in the Belmont. For that matter, I'll Have Another's stretch drive in last year's Preakness to give him a shot at the TC was nothing but exciting. Anyone who was at Saratoga the day Rachel Alexandra won the Woodward can still hear the roars. Ghostzapper in the Met Mile. In a few days Animal Kingdom will take a shot at winning a Gr 1 at Ascot's Royal Meet. That will be quite memorable should he do it. Wise Dan out there now running as close to a machine as any. And my personal favorite watching MD bred mare Silmaril step up from her domination of state bred ranks to beat Ashado at Pimlico in a graded race. A bunch of 2yos are preping for their racing careers right now. Maybe one of those will be the next great. I'll be watching.

[thaskalos]

I suspect Smarty Jones would have given Zenyatta a serious run for her money...that's how overrated she was, ability-wise. Not downplaying her accomplishments, just her overall ability.

Perspective has been lost on many over the years it seems.
How would Rachel have fared against Smarty Jones...in your opinion?

[Stillriledup]

I suspect Smarty Jones would have given Zenyatta a serious run for her money...that's how overrated she was, ability-wise. Not downplaying her accomplishments, just her overall ability.

Perspective has been lost on many over the years it seems.

Why downplay Smarty Jones, he was pretty good.

[cnollfan]

You should check out the 1978 Belmont ( among other races ) sometime. It was a pretty good one.

I saw it in real-time at the time (on TV). Of course it's a great race, but it's on everybody's list. The Zenyatta - Blame race has extra meaning in part because Zenyatta was such a polarizing figure.

[cj]

I saw it in real-time at the time (on TV). Of course it's a great race, but it's on everybody's list. The Zenyatta - Blame race has extra meaning in part because Zenyatta was such a polarizing figure.

Agreed...to finally get vindication was sweet.

[Rise Over Run]

Agreed...to finally get vindication was sweet.

Wow, perfectly set-up for that response.

[PaceAdvantage]

Why downplay Smarty Jones, he was pretty good.I'm not. I'm just providing MY perspective.

I happened to like Smarty Jones...a lot...

What I'm saying is that the biggest fans of Zenyatta would have a serious problem with me mentioning Smarty Jones in the same sentence as Zenyatta. They're the ones who would downplay SJ. Not me.

[thaskalos]

I'm not. I'm just providing MY perspective.

I happened to like Smarty Jones...a lot...

What I'm saying is that the biggest fans of Zenyatta would have a serious problem with me mentioning Smarty Jones in the same sentence as Zenyatta. They're the ones who would downplay SJ. Not me.

You don't know that; you just THINK you do...

I would have no problem with you comparing Smarty Jones to Zenyatta...and I doubt that there is a bigger Zenyatta fan than me on this board.

Now, if you were to compare Rachel Alexandra to Zenyatta...then that would be an entirely different story.

[TheEdge07]

Agreed...to finally get vindication was sweet.

She quickly rebounded in defeat by winning HOTY.

[cj]

She quickly rebounded in defeat by winning the mythical HOTY.

FTFY. We all know what happened the only time she faced real horses that year. She performed admirably, ran a great race, but lost to a better horse.

[TheEdge07]

FTFY. We all know what happened the only time she faced real horses that year. She performed admirably, ran a great race, but lost to a better horse.


Can we agree the better horse won..but Z ran the better race?

[thaskalos]

Can we agree the better horse won..but Z ran the better race?
No...I, for one, cannot agree with that. In fact...I believe that the opposite is true.

Blame -- and Gomez -- ran the better race...but Zenyatta was the better horse.

I only wish the gallant mare could have had another shot at that field...

[Robert Fischer]

Blame and Zenyatta both ran really big in that race.

You can say Zenyatta lost more ground, and had to come from deeper, and you can make a case that she actually ran a slightly better race.
However, Zenyatta ran to her natural running style. That being the case, I don't think she deserves extra credit for closing wide.

[SharpCat]

I believe that Zenyatta was the better horse. The difference on that day was the far turn. Blame had an unobstructed run throughout the far turn while Zenyatta was caught behind a wall of horses who were running in place. The best horse does not always win the race and this was one of those occasions.

[PhantomOnTour]

I believe that Zenyatta was the better horse. The difference on that day was the far turn. Blame had an unobstructed run throughout the far turn while Zenyatta was caught behind a wall of horses who were running in place. The best horse does not always win the race and this was one of those occasions.
But that's the eternal excuse of deep closers...traffic and losing ground.

Zenyatta was fantastic but she lost fair & square to a horse who was about a foot or so better than her that evening.
She had aim at him in the final 1/16 but Blame dug in and got the prize.

[thaskalos]

But that's the eternal excuse of deep closers...traffic and losing ground.

Zenyatta was fantastic but she lost fair & square to a horse who was about a foot or so better than her that evening.
She had aim at him in the final 1/16 but Blame dug in and got the prize.

That's your opinion...and it's shared by plenty of people on this board.

And there are also plenty of people who think that Zenyatta would have turned the tables on Blame if the race were repeated.

Sadly...we'll never know.

But I'm not ready to concede that Blame was the better horse...based on what I saw that day.

And I disagree vehemently with those who say that Zenyatta ran her "normal" race...

[SharpCat]

That's your opinion...and it's shared by plenty of people on this board.

And there are also plenty of people who think that Zenyatta would have turned the tables on Blame if the race were repeated.

Sadly...we'll never know.

But I'm not ready to concede that Blame was the better horse...based on what I saw that day.

And I disagree vehemently with those who say that Zenyatta ran her "normal" race...


I agree.

[cj]

And I disagree vehemently with those who say that Zenyatta ran her "normal" race...

I agree. Her normal race was against four or five overmatched females on California synthetics. But on dirt, that was the race I expected. She was just too slow early to beat the best male on dirt. She came damn close though.

[thaskalos]

I agree. Her normal race was against four or five overmatched females on California synthetics. But on dirt, that was the race I expected. She was just too slow early to beat the best male on dirt. She came damn close though.

Did she come closer than you thought she would?

[thaskalos]

I agree. Her normal race was against four or five overmatched females on California synthetics. But on dirt, that was the race I expected. She was just too slow early to beat the best male on dirt. She came damn close though.

Cj...we have debated endlessly about Zenyatta here on this board...and I would like to state my final argument on this issue:

You are in your mid-forties...and I am 51. Never again in our lifetimes, IMO, will we see another older mare take on the best male horses in the Breeders Cup Classic...and scare the daylights out of them, even in defeat.

She was special...

And thumbs up to the classy Garrett Gomez...for standing in his saddle and saluting the great mare after narrowly beating her on the wire.

It is moments like these that remind me of why I fell in love with this game in the first place.

Too bad we don't have more of them...

[Stillriledup]

Cj...we have debated endlessly about Zenyatta here on this board...and I would like to state my final argument on this issue:

You are in your mid-forties...and I am 51. Never again in our lifetimes, IMO, will we see another older mare take on the best male horses in the Breeders Cup Classic...and scare the daylights out of them, even in defeat.

She was special...

And thumbs up to the classy Garrett Gomez...for standing in his saddle and saluting the great mare after narrowly beating her on the wire.

It is moments like these that remind me of why I fell in love with this game in the first place.

Too bad we don't have more of them...

Amen.

[precocity]

Cj...we have debated endlessly about Zenyatta here on this board...and I would like to state my final argument on this issue:

You are in your mid-forties...and I am 51. Never again in our lifetimes, IMO, will we see another older mare take on the best male horses in the Breeders Cup Classic...and scare the daylights out of them, even in defeat.

She was special...

And thumbs up to the classy Garrett Gomez...for standing in his saddle and saluting the great mare after narrowly beating her on the wire.

It is moments like these that remind me of why I fell in love with this game in the first place.

Too bad we don't have more of them...
:ThmbUp: good post!

[cj]

Cj...we have debated endlessly about Zenyatta here on this board...and I would like to state my final argument on this issue:

You are in your mid-forties...and I am 51. Never again in our lifetimes, IMO, will we see another older mare take on the best male horses in the Breeders Cup Classic...and scare the daylights out of them, even in defeat.

She was special...

And thumbs up to the classy Garrett Gomez...for standing in his saddle and saluting the great mare after narrowly beating her on the wire.

It is moments like these that remind me of why I fell in love with this game in the first place.

Too bad we don't have more of them...

She was special, and I certainly don't dislike a horse. I just wish she had been handled like she was special instead of being raced like a show pony.

[cj]

Did she come closer than you thought she would?

Yes, I've said as much. I respect her ability more from that one loss than most of the other wins combined.

I've turned into a pretty good 4.5 tennis player these days. I don't play 3.5 players, and just a few 4.0s. Zenyatta was a 6.0 racing against 4.0s. Not her fault of course, but hard for me to be a big fan of that kind of racing.