Woodbine savages purses of quality races...

[RXB]

so that they can keep giving a $1 million purse plus three $500,000 purses for races restricted to Canadian-bred 3YO's.

http://www.drf.com/news/woodbine-cuts-canadian-international-ep-taylor-purses

Now, would you like to know what that Ontario-bred slush fund is producing in terms of quality racing? Well, I bothered to do some research.

The last nine winners of the Queen's Plate, combined, have a grand total of exactly one (ungraded) stakes win after their Plate victories. One. Yeah, racing is being well served by doling out $1 million purses for those fine horses.

Congratulations to Woodbine, the local thoroughbred industry and of course the politicians for this outstanding achievement.

[Al Gobbi]

so that they can keep giving a $1 million purse plus three $500,000 purses for races restricted to Canadian-bred 3YO's.

http://www.drf.com/news/woodbine-cuts-canadian-international-ep-taylor-purses

Now, would you like to know what that Ontario-bred slush fund is producing in terms of quality racing? Well, I bothered to do some research.

The last nine winners of the Queen's Plate, combined, have a grand total of exactly one (ungraded) stakes win after their Plate victories. One. Yeah, racing is being well served by doling out $1 million purses for those fine horses.

Congratulations to Woodbine, the local thoroughbred industry and of course the politicians for this outstanding achievement.

There is no excuse that a state/province bred race should be worth equal or greater that an open type G1 or G2. They just put probably a few extra horses at Santa Anita in the BC races.

[OTM Al]

There is no excuse that a state/province bred race should be worth equal or greater that an open type G1 or G2. They just put probably a few extra horses at Santa Anita in the BC races.

You mean like those Sunshine Millions races everyone liked so much? I don't recall your outrage over those.

You might not be aware but the Queen's Plate is the signature race for Canada. You know, the country to the north. That's a pretty decent excuse. It is older than the Kentucky Derby, which could also scrap a million dollars toward other purses by this logic. It is the pinnacle of achievement for their breeding industry, but clearly that means nothing....

[cj]

You mean like those Sunshine Millions races everyone liked so much? I don't recall your outrage over those.

You might not be aware but the Queen's Plate is the signature race for Canada. You know, the country to the north. That's a pretty decent excuse. It is older than the Kentucky Derby, which could also scrap a million dollars toward other purses by this logic. It is the pinnacle of achievement for their breeding industry, but clearly that means nothing....

Wouldn't they draw the same exact horses for $750,000, or $500,000, or $250,000?

[OTM Al]

Wouldn't they draw the same exact horses for $750,000, or $500,000, or $250,000?

Likely, just as the Kentucky Derby would draw the same for $500,000 or 1 million, etc. It's their flagship product though. That is what they are paying for.

[cj]

Likely, just as the Kentucky Derby would draw the same for $500,000 or 1 million, etc. It's their flagship product though. That is what they are paying for.

I get it, but really, they are overpaying by a lot.

I'm not so sure about the Derby purse to be honest. We have plenty of other races horses can go in for that kind of money without battling 19 others. The Triple Crown didn't raise purses out of generosity. There were reasons it happened. Horses could run for better money in other races and it was starting to effect the TC races. In Canada, they have nowhere else to run for that kind of money.

In the end, it is their money and they can do what they want. I think they'll regret diminishing the other races.

[OTM Al]

I get it, but really, they are overpaying by a lot.

I'm not so sure about the Derby purse to be honest. We have plenty of other races horses can go in for that kind of money without battling 19 others. The Triple Crown didn't raise purses out of generosity. There were reasons it happened. Horses could run for better money in other races and it was starting to effect the TC races. In Canada, they have nowhere else to run for that kind of money.

In the end, it is their money and they can do what they want. I think they'll regret diminishing the other races.

It is very possible, but it is also possible that showing weakness on your signature product could do the same thing. Damned if you do, damned if you don't perhaps. And I'd add, what makes these TC races so sacred anyway? The argument you are making cuts both ways. Maybe they didn't raise them up to the million dollar mark out of generosity, but that second million for the Derby wasn't because of competition. It was all about branding. They'd still have 20 runners in the race and more wanting in without that.

[cj]

... but that second million for the Derby wasn't because of competition. It was all about branding. They'd still have 20 runners in the race and more wanting in without that.

Really hard to say, but I still remember times when there weren't 20 horses in the field, so I have to think the huge purse has something to do with it. It also helps that owners of horses get plenty of perks on Derby day.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Really hard to say, but I still remember times when there weren't 20 horses in the field, so I have to think the huge purse has something to do with it. It also helps that owners of horses get plenty of perks on Derby day.

When 20 were allowed? That's amazing - you'd think the field always would have filled, but I'm sure you're right.

[OTM Al]

Really hard to say, but I still remember times when there weren't 20 horses in the field, so I have to think the huge purse has something to do with it. It also helps that owners of horses get plenty of perks on Derby day.

True. But back then many other races were in the national conscious but now this is about it. Frankly I think there are aboiut 100 more things to be concerned about before this subject anyway. The complaining just sets me off sometimes. Especially when it is looking at the least important part of the issue. I would say how much sponsorships do you think you can get for a $1 million race vs a $250K race? You think by keeping it prestigious they may actually come out slightly ahead even if the same horses ran, which frankly the majority watching couldn't care less about?

[cj]

True. But back then many other races were in the national conscious but now this is about it. Frankly I think there are aboiut 100 more things to be concerned about before this subject anyway. The complaining just sets me off sometimes. Especially when it is looking at the least important part of the issue. I would say how much sponsorships do you think you can get for a $1 million race vs a $250K race? You think by keeping it prestigious they may actually come out slightly ahead even if the same horses ran, which frankly the majority watching couldn't care less about?

It is pretty tough to find things not to complain about these days if you ask me. I try not to do it much. The Met Mile was a great race, and so was the Derby. You have to look to the track itself to find positives. When is the last time something positive came from the management side of things?

I'm sure we can find a few small nuggets, but in general, the sport is in serious decline. No sane person could argue that. The sport has lost gamblers and fans alike by the boat load. They have lost them because the product is getting worse and worse. Who doesn't complain about a poor product?

[OTM Al]

It is pretty tough to find things not to complain about these days if you ask me. I try not to do it much. The Met Mile was a great race, and so was the Derby. You have to look to the track itself to find positives. When is the last time something positive came from the management side of things?

I'm sure we can find a few small nuggets, but in general, the sport is in serious decline. No sane person could argue that. The sport has lost gamblers and fans alike by the boat load. They have lost them because the product is getting worse and worse. Who doesn't complain about a poor product?

Maybe I should better define it as uninformed complaining. The kind in which the bringer of complaint only sees a tiny sliver of the entire issue and understands even less. But of course, being the customer, he/she knows all and is entirely in the right. An informed, rational complaint is one thing. Most of the crap I see here and elsewhere is entirely another beast.

And I do think positive things come from the management side all the time. If that wasn't the case, this all would have folded long ago. Maybe it has been the work of a lot of dedicated people that kept that from happening in the face of an inevitable decline. They had a role in the Derby and Met Mile races you cite as well. The average person just doesn't see them and the work involved in making those races happen. You well know that the horses don't just show up and run.

I'd really love to go up to see a Queen's Plate some day, and I can't say that about the Derby. So being back on topic, I'd say there were good reasons Woodbine decided to do things the way they did because I'm sure they full well know what cutting other purses will do.

[RXB]

You might not be aware but the Queen's Plate is the signature race for Canada. You know, the country to the north. That's a pretty decent excuse. It is older than the Kentucky Derby, which could also scrap a million dollars toward other purses by this logic. It is the pinnacle of achievement for their breeding industry, but clearly that means nothing....

I live in "the country to the north" and believe me, the million-dollar purse hasn't helped the quality of the race at all. In fact, the race has declined dramatically in quality as have Ontario-breds in general. The Plate is no longer a "signature product" but rather just a minor stakes with a ridiculously inflated purse. The careers of the recent Plate winners prove it.

Whereas, in the ten years pre-slots (1989-1998) many of the Plate winners were excellent horses. Awesome Again, Victor Cooley, Alydeed, Dance Smartly all won Gr1 races in the USA. With Approval became a high-class turf performer, winning two Gr2 races and finishing second in the Gr1 Sword Dancer, Arlington Million and Breeders' Cup Turf. Peteski and Izvestia won several stakes including graded races after their Plate wins. Basqueian won six open stakes including a Gr3 after his Plate win. Only Regal Discovery and Archers Bay failed to win non-restricted stakes after their Plate wins.

So the purse hikes have achieved nothing, in fact they have only encouraged local breeders/owners to breed down, not up, since they can make huge money without actually having to run against non-Ontario breds or even older Ontario-breds. After these cuts Woodbine has $21 million in stakes purses this year, $8 million of which is restricted to Ontario-bred/Canadian-bred races. (Non-Ontario horses win the "Canadian-bred" races about once every 30 years so effectively Canadian-bred = Ontario-bred.)

[cj]

Maybe I should better define it as uninformed complaining. The kind in which the bringer of complaint only sees a tiny sliver of the entire issue and understands even less. But of course, being the customer, he/she knows all and is entirely in the right. An informed, rational complaint is one thing. Most of the crap I see here and elsewhere is entirely another beast.

And I do think positive things come from the management side all the time. If that wasn't the case, this all would have folded long ago. Maybe it has been the work of a lot of dedicated people that kept that from happening in the face of an inevitable decline. They had a role in the Derby and Met Mile races you cite as well. The average person just doesn't see them and the work involved in making those races happen. You well know that the horses don't just show up and run.

I'd really love to go up to see a Queen's Plate some day, and I can't say that about the Derby. So being back on topic, I'd say there were good reasons Woodbine decided to do things the way they did because I'm sure they full well know what cutting other purses will do.

No argument from me. I'm just saying that there is a whole lot more to complain about than there is to praise in most areas of the game. The fact that you cite getting two good fields in top G1 races as a positive shows how bad the sport is doing right now.

[OTM Al]

No argument from me. I'm just saying that there is a whole lot more to complain about than there is to praise in most areas of the game. The fact that you cite getting two good fields in top G1 races as a positive shows how bad the sport is doing right now.

You brought those up initially. I simply stated there was a lot of work behind them which helped them be so great. There's a lot of work behind putting the show on every day they run too. You can turn any positive example into a negative if you try hard enough I guess. I'm sure all this is NYRA's fault somehow......

[usedtolovetvg]

It's all about the people. The WEG execs are now much more concerned about bemoaning the end of the slots program than they are at creatively growing or marketing the sport. This is the 30th anniversary of Sunny's Halo winning the Kentucky Derby, almost 50 years since the great Northern Dancer did it. Although the two owners were at different ends of the socio-economic ladder, both shared a deep love of the sport. Ernie Samuel and Bud Wilmott shared that passion, as well. It was their drive, passion and commitment that made the sport great. And, it was embraced by the masses. As is so often the case, the owners' enthusiasm was not embraced by the families. With the passing of these great racing leaders, the families decimated the business. Current management has no idea what it was that made racing great. This is obvious by their misguided fascination with slots.

[cj]

You brought those up initially. I simply stated there was a lot of work behind them which helped them be so great. There's a lot of work behind putting the show on every day they run too. You can turn any positive example into a negative if you try hard enough I guess. I'm sure all this is NYRA's fault somehow......

Well, I wouldn't compare any place to NYRA, which I think does hands down a better job than anybody else when it comes to the racing. If that is your frame of reference, you are going to be very disappointed as you branch out. I don't even know why you brought NRYA up to be honest.

[OTM Al]

Well, I wouldn't compare any place to NYRA, which I think does hands down a better job than anybody else when it comes to the racing. If that is your frame of reference, you are going to be very disappointed as you branch out. I don't even know why you brought NRYA up to be honest.

It was a joke, pure sarcasm, reflective of the ill informed complainers I was speaking of earlier. They blame NYRA for pretty much everything. I even got someone on this board once to blame NYRA for something that was happening in harness racing just to prove the point. Steve Crist thought it was pretty funny when I once told him everything had been downhill in racing since NYRA created AIDS. He got the joke.

[cj]

It was a joke, pure sarcasm, reflective of the ill informed complainers I was speaking of earlier. They blame NYRA for pretty much everything. I even got someone on this board once to blame NYRA for something that was happening in harness racing just to prove the point. Steve Crist thought it was pretty funny when I once told him everything had been downhill in racing since NYRA created AIDS. He got the joke.

OK, just wanted to make sure you didn't think I was a NYRA basher. I speak up when I see something I don't like, but I defend them FAR more often.