David Jacobson

[magwell]

He put on a clinic today at Belmont winning with four horses first time off a claim, that's big time impressive........:ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

[Stillriledup]

He's making it look easy.

[overthehill]

i dont recall encountering this ever. the spa city one was a real head scratcher, the others figured pretty well.

[BIG49010]

The last win with a claim off Jerkens was amazing!!! According to my database the last person to win off the Chief at Belmont was Gary Contessa in 2006.

[JustRalph]

If you were using Jcapper, all were top picks.......... except the horse in the 6th. who ran off the board

[magwell]

The last win with a claim off Jerkens was amazing!!! According to my database the last person to win off the Chief at Belmont was Gary Contessa in 2006. That wasn't the Chief, it was Jimmy Jerkens.......

[Harvhorse]

He is a chip off the block, his dad Howard Buudy Jacobson ruled the N.Y. claiming game in late 50`s and sixty`s.

[jerry-g]

For my, IMO take on the aftermath, these horses won because of
the new trainer placing them properly for their next out.
Spa City fever was racing against only two others but he had
put in a good race at 75K OC finishing 2nd within 1 L. Far better
than his other competitors.
Yo Blu was said to be moving up in class when, IMO, he was dropping.
He had a good Maiden 50K race where he ran 2nd by 3 L. That was
6 F but he had already won at the distance in his last two races so
that was not a problem.
Sing Dixie Sing was my pick because he had already won at the
distance and class and was dropping back from 50 K OC to his
winning class.
Also Jacobson is enjoying a 23% win ratio for 1st after claims.

[Saratoga_Mike]

He is a chip off the block, his dad Howard Buudy Jacobson ruled the N.Y. claiming game in late 50`s and sixty`s.

Yeah he's a terrific person....

TRAINER IS CHARGED WITH HORSE NEGLECT

By STEVEN CRIST (The New York Times); Sports Desk

October 17, 1981, Saturday

"David Jacobson, a horse trainer based at Aqueduct, has been charged with failing to provide food and medical attention to a thoroughred that had to be destroyed last month. The State Racing and Wagering Board ordered Jacobson yesterday to show cause why his license to train should not be revoked for mistreatment of the horse, Hugable Tom, a 6-year-old gelding who was destroyed Sept. 28. Jacobson is the son of Howard (Buddy) Jacobson, formerly a leading trainer in New York, who is imprisoned for murder. According to a spokesman for the racing board, the mistreatment of Hugable Tom, who had won 11 races at Aqueduct and Belmont in the last two years, first came to the attention of board investigators in August. At Jacobson's hearing, set for Oct. 28, the investigators are expected to testify that Hugable Tom was so neglected that other trainers and backstretch help took it on themselves to give the gelding food and water"

[Robert Goren]

He has checkered past, but you can't let that enter to the decision on whether to bet one of his horses or not.

[Saratoga_Mike]

He has checkered past, but you can't let that enter to the decision on whether to bet one of his horses.

Agreed and I wasn't. I was making a more personal judgment - what he allegedly did was disgraceful.

[BIG49010]

That wasn't the Chief, it was Jimmy Jerkens.......

I stand corrected, but the stat is similar 0 for 17 up until this win.

[FantasticDan]

NYRA watching closely:

http://www.drf.com/news/belmont-park-nyra-keeping-close-eye-jacobson

[pandy]

Jacobson wins with a lot of dropdowns. As for his past, I did a lot of research on that trial for an article I wrote for Sports Eye. I read the entire transcripts from the trial. I didn't think that NYRA proved their case and it left me wondering if they just didn't like David because they didn't like his father, Howard, who was convicted of murder and was a rabble-rouser who tried to unionize the backstretch workers.

To me, Jacobson doesn't quite fit the juicer profile. Yes he is winning but his horses don't improve sharply. He claims a lot of old geldings, freshens them up and puts them in light, often dropping first or second start off a claim. Jacobson has no positives and his horses seem to hold up well.

R-Rod, on the other hand, worked for Rick Dutrow. And, after R-Rod's recent three positives (for the same drug) he has since gone ice cold, often the tell tale sign that he can't win without using drugs on his horses.

[Stillriledup]

Jacobson wins with a lot of dropdowns. As for his past, I did a lot of research on that trial for an article I wrote for Sports Eye. I read the entire transcripts from the trial. I didn't think that NYRA proved their case and it left me wondering if they just didn't like David because they didn't like his father, Howard, who was convicted of murder and was a rabble-rouser who tried to unionize the backstretch workers.

To me, Jacobson doesn't quite fit the juicer profile. Yes he is winning but his horses don't improve sharply. He claims a lot of old geldings, freshens them up and puts them in light, often dropping first or second start off a claim. Jacobson has no positives and his horses seem to hold up well.

R-Rod, on the other hand, worked for Rick Dutrow. And, after R-Rod's recent three positives (for the same drug) he has since gone ice cold, often the tell tale sign that he can't win without using drugs on his horses.

RRRs horses have taken a noticible dropoff, in fact, when i handicap a race he's in, i almost 'instant toss' him.

[Stillriledup]

i dont recall encountering this ever. the spa city one was a real head scratcher, the others figured pretty well.

I bet on Spa City because i hated the fave and the only other runner (3 horse field) had like a 2 year layoff off a race where it looked like he broke down. Somehow that other horse was the 2nd betting choice. Spa City had a good line 2 or 3 lines down where he was game in a good field. Also, the favorite stumbled at the start fwiw.

[Robert Goren]

RRRs horses have taken a noticible dropoff, in fact, when i handicap a race he's in, i almost 'instant toss' him.Rudy is a killer on the AQU inner, but this isn't the first time he has dropped off the map when Belmont started.

[MightBeSosa]

Well, I spotted and posted here about RR two weeks and 20? losers ago. Many at short odds. Shows that after 200 years of race watching, you can actually learn stuff.

Flash: read this Jacobson news at the DRF , talk of the RR -streak there as well.
http://www.drf.com/news/belmont-park-nyra-keeping-close-eye-jacobson


Actually, the 'dry' spell was spotted and began earlier than that , though he won a couple at PIM.

Sometimes they pass the baton.
http://www.carlajgardiner.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Baby-Boomer-Trends-Business-101-Pass-the-Baton.jpg

[JustRalph]

Flash: read this Jacobson news at the DRF , talk of the RR -streak there as well.
http://www.drf.com/news/belmont-park-nyra-keeping-close-eye-jacobson

This was interesting from that article

"Of the 109 horses to receive a published workout on Tuesday at Saratoga, 73 were 2-year-olds. Most, though not all, were trained by Todd Pletcher."

That's amazing...........how many horses can Pletcher have across the country?

[PaceAdvantage]

That's amazing...........how many horses can Pletcher have across the country?He learned well from the master. Right down to his choice of hair color... :lol:

[Tom]

From January 1st......

Coupled entries - 8
Wins - 3
Places - 4
Shows -1

100% in the money.
88% exacta finishes

Uncoupled entries - 31
Wins - 15
Lower odds - 10
Higher odds - 5 (only 2 were over $10)

[pandy]

Two of Jacobson's wins this weekend, Saginaw and Big Business, are both horses that he's been able keep going strong for a sustained period of time, and he was able to rest them and bring them back sharp this year after they both had huge 2012 seasons. Trainers who juice their horses simply can't keep horses going like that over a period of time. This is one of the main reasons why I think that it's unfair to accuse Jacobson of using. He has no positives and his horses hold up remarkably well.

The trainers who use stuff are pretty obvious. The horse improves off a claim, runs a few big races and then tails off, then they drop the horse in very low and try to get rid of it. Drugs like EPO and whatever else these guys use take a toll on a horse.

As a young man David worked for his father. Buddy, who won 5 training titles in New York, and Bobby Frankel, who was one of the greatest claiming trainers ever before he got the higher quality stock.

[cj]

As a young man David worked for his father. Buddy, who won 5 training titles in New York, and Bobby Frankel, who was one of the greatest claiming trainers ever before he got the higher quality stock.

Why was he gone for so long?

[pandy]

That suspension looks more suspicious all the time. Anyone who can keep these older horses winning like this and racing consistently obviously takes good care of his horses.

[cj]

That suspension looks more suspicious all the time. Anyone who can keep these older horses winning like this and racing consistently obviously takes good care of his horses.

Well, he had quite a few break down that I recall, including ones he dumped via claim breakdown shortly after.

But, you didn't answer? I was being serious, I don't remember the reason. I know it wasn't good obviously.

[Valuist]

Well, he had quite a few break down that I recall, including ones he dumped via claim breakdown shortly after.

But, you didn't answer? I was being serious, I don't remember the reason. I know it wasn't good obviously.

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/item_u3dB8NpYqRMWiPtko1J4xL

[pandy]

[QUOTE=cj]Well, he had quite a few break down that I recall, including ones he dumped via claim breakdown shortly after.

But, you didn't answer? I was being serious, I don't remember the reason. I know it wasn't good obviously.[/QUOTE

The suspension was for a horse of his that died while in his care. But it was hard to figure if he did anything wrong because there was good reason to believe that the NYRA management back then could have had it in for him because they hated his father.

[Tom]

Lots of talk about Baffert winning with the higher odds horse......

[PhantomOnTour]

Jacobson in a mini slump - been cold this past week or so.

[castaway01]

Jacobson in a mini slump - been cold this past week or so.

Since June 3rd Jacobson is 1 for 16 at Belmont. He's also 0 for 5 at Suffolk, four of which were heavy favorites. His Belmont horses, which were getting bet heavily earlier, are now ice cold.

Like with Cibelli back at Tampa, when the "investigations" and "crackdowns" start at the barn, it's never a bad idea to keep your money in your pocket for a while and wait to see if the barn suddenly cools off. These trainers usually run in cycles anyway (no pun intended).

[Saratoga_Mike]

[QUOTE=cj]Well, he had quite a few break down that I recall, including ones he dumped via claim breakdown shortly after.

But, you didn't answer? I was being serious, I don't remember the reason. I know it wasn't good obviously.[/QUOTE

The suspension was for a horse of his that died while in his care. But it was hard to figure if he did anything wrong because there was good reason to believe that the NYRA management back then could have had it in for him because they hated his father.

I've heard it all now.

[Robert Goren]

[QUOTE=pandy]

I've heard it all now.A lot of people had it in for Buddy Jacobson.

[Saratoga_Mike]

[QUOTE=Saratoga_Mike]A lot of people had it in for Buddy Jacobson.

Another one of your posts that isn't serious - I almost fell for it

[pandy]

Since June 3rd Jacobson is 1 for 16 at Belmont. He's also 0 for 5 at Suffolk, four of which were heavy favorites. His Belmont horses, which were getting bet heavily earlier, are now ice cold.

Like with Cibelli back at Tampa, when the "investigations" and "crackdowns" start at the barn, it's never a bad idea to keep your money in your pocket for a while and wait to see if the barn suddenly cools off. These trainers usually run in cycles anyway (no pun intended).

This is way too small a sample to make anything out of but a smart bettor definitely has to keep tabs because sometimes when they are watched the percentages do drop. However, it's usually after a positive, and in this case there isn't any. But time will tell.

[cj]

This is way too small a sample to make anything out of but a smart bettor definitely has to keep tabs because sometimes when they are watched the percentages do drop. However, it's usually after a positive, and in this case there isn't any. But time will tell.

The smart bettor jumps in before the public has. If you wait until he is 2 for 43, you are too late.

[cj]

Since June 3rd Jacobson is 1 for 16 at Belmont. He's also 0 for 5 at Suffolk, four of which were heavy favorites. His Belmont horses, which were getting bet heavily earlier, are now ice cold.

Like with Cibelli back at Tampa, when the "investigations" and "crackdowns" start at the barn, it's never a bad idea to keep your money in your pocket for a while and wait to see if the barn suddenly cools off. These trainers usually run in cycles anyway (no pun intended).

Like I said in the other post, I prefer to assume they will tail off, and it usually works. If I'm wrong, I figure it out after about two horses run. But when I'm right, it pays off big time.

[Robert Goren]

[QUOTE=Robert Goren]

Another one of your posts that isn't serious - I almost fell for itIf you think I am not serious about Buddy Jacobson, you should Google him. He was a convicted murderer among other many other things. Whether or not NYRA had it in for his son because of who his father was is open to debate. The fact that the father was a very evil person and a lot of people didn't like him isn't.

[pandy]

The smart bettor jumps in before the public has. If you wait until he is 2 for 43, you are too late.

I agree but he's had this type if mini slump many times as have all trainers. Jacobson has had some bad streaks at Belmont and Saratoga when the better horses are out in full force.

[jk3521]

I this continues or the rest of the Belmont meet, watch out for him when Saratoga opens.

[andicap]

Perhaps his horses have either
a) run through their form cycle and need a rest or
b) have gone up enough in class that they can't win anymore
c) encountered bad luck either on the track or a some virus in the barn.
d) suffered because the labs have figured out a test for whatever he's been using or security is tighter.

And he has yet to replenish through claims.
Just some theories.

CJ, do you mean you immediately get off a trainer when security increases or there's been a positive??

[Saratoga_Mike]

[QUOTE=Saratoga_Mike]If you think I am not serious about Buddy Jacobson, you should Google him. He was a convicted murderer among other many other things. Whether or not NYRA had it in for his son because of who his father was is open to debate. The fact that the father was a very evil person and a lot of people didn't like him isn't.

I know all about him - see my earlier post in this thread (post 9).

[cj]

CJ, do you mean you immediately get off a trainer when security increases or there's been a positive??

It isn't like I was on his horses, they rarely pay anything. I just start tossing them until it seems I shouldn't any longer. Sometimes that is just a few horses, sometimes it last for a while.

[castaway01]

Like I said in the other post, I prefer to assume they will tail off, and it usually works. If I'm wrong, I figure it out after about two horses run. But when I'm right, it pays off big time.

I agree 100%, just wanted to avoid the "he's a cheater" vs. "he's just misunderstood and loves hay, oats, and water" argument.

[castaway01]

Perhaps his horses have either
a) run through their form cycle and need a rest or
b) have gone up enough in class that they can't win anymore
c) encountered bad luck either on the track or a some virus in the barn.
d) suffered because the labs have figured out a test for whatever he's been using or security is tighter.

And he has yet to replenish through claims.
Just some theories.

CJ, do you mean you immediately get off a trainer when security increases or there's been a positive??

Well, I do believe "a" and "b" sometimes happen. As to "d", there was a well-publicized visit to his barn, shortly after which he stopped winning everywhere, so there's that. In this case I'm leaning towards "d".

[castaway01]

This is way too small a sample to make anything out of but a smart bettor definitely has to keep tabs because sometimes when they are watched the percentages do drop. However, it's usually after a positive, and in this case there isn't any. But time will tell.

Do you expect to get a 200-horse sample for a trainer? It's horse racing---we work with small samples. In this case, Jacobson was on fire, winning everything, came under surveillance because of it, then suddenly stopped winning. There are rarely more obvious "avoid his horses" signs than this one.

[Stillriledup]

I guess the 'surveillance' is over. Wonderful, that did a lot of good.

[magwell]

I guess the 'surveillance' is over. Wonderful, that did a lot of good. So that was the problem lol

[lamboguy]

if you want to make money at this game you got to follow every angle. you should have had someone watching the barn to see if the security was still there.

i only remember the day my friend trainer Jeff Talley told me to bet on his horse INITFORTHECANDY. i told him he's nuts, there were all top trainers there. he told me the race was a "supertest" race. i said isn't that supposed to be a secret, he told me every knows everything in Kentucky. sure enough INITFORTHECANDY gallops and pays $40 and should have paid $80.

[Shemp Howard]

if you want to make money at this game you got to follow every angle. you should have had someone watching the barn to see if the security was still there.

i only remember the day my friend trainer Jeff Talley told me to bet on his horse INITFORTHECANDY. i told him he's nuts, there were all top trainers there. he told me the race was a "supertest" race. i said isn't that supposed to be a secret, he told me every knows everything in Kentucky. sure enough INITFORTHECANDY gallops and pays $40 and should have paid $80.

There's a stable at Penn National following the same script.

Read the charts closely and don't choke on your breakfast burrito.

[Rise Over Run]

There's a stable at Penn National following the same script.

Read the charts closely and don't choke on your breakfast burrito.
I know that I'm going way out on a limb here and probably won't be correct :liar: :liar: . Is it Renpher?

[Stillriledup]

So that was the problem lol

Yeah, so they "surveilled" him for a little while, the public bet on his horses thinking they were betting on Budweiser, but they were betting on Bud Lite instead, and now, when people get used to the Bud Lite version, its back to Bud.

I'd love to know what this actually accomplished, its not like the guy is going to get suspended or fined for 'underperforming' for those few weeks, just another example of the bettors taking it in the shorts.

[pandy]

Yeah, so they "surveilled" him for a little while, the public bet on his horses thinking they were betting on Budweiser, but they were betting on Bud Lite instead, and now, when people get used to the Bud Lite version, its back to Bud.

I'd love to know what this actually accomplished, its not like the guy is going to get suspended or fined for 'underperforming' for those few weeks, just another example of the bettors taking it in the shorts.

Your post is pretty silly, no offense, but come on. All trainers including the top trainers have some stretches where they have a bad week or two. This thread is a joke, Jacobson has no positives and his problem with the horse that died was decades ago. Baffert had 7 horses die in the not-to-distant past, and he didn't even get a fine.

[Stillriledup]

Your post is pretty silly, no offense, but come on. All trainers including the top trainers have some stretches where they have a bad week or two. This thread is a joke, Jacobson has no positives and his problem with the horse that died was decades ago. Baffert had 7 horses die in the not-to-distant past, and he didn't even get a fine.

So you're saying its a complete coincidence that his 'bad stretch' was right during surveillance and as soon as its over, the slump is over?

I know you werent born last night.

[thaskalos]

I agree with you 100%, SRU...we've all seen hot streaks turn into cold streaks overnight when the spotlight is put on some of these trainers...and it's never a coincidence.

Jacobson is a scumbag...and in no way does he deserve the benefit of any doubt.

[pandy]

He wasn't even in that bad of a slump, give me a break, no one who has a 20 win percentage wins 20% every week. There is no story here. You want to be suspicious, fine. As I said in an earlier post, when a trainer gets a positive they do sometimes go cold and you have to watch, but they don't bounce back a week or two later, they slump. This is much to do about nothing. Jacobson will most likely win a lower percentage for the next few months anyway because claiming barns have a tougher time with the big money barns coming in for the summer.

[pandy]

I agree with you 100%, SRU...we've all seen hot streaks turn into cold streaks overnight when the spotlight is put on some of these trainers...and it's never a coincidence.

Jacobson is a scumbag...and in no way does he deserve the benefit of any doubt.


Wow, I was really surprised when I saw this remark was from you. What do you base your hatred of him on?

[magwell]

I agree with you 100%, SRU...we've all seen hot streaks turn into cold streaks overnight when the spotlight is put on some of these trainers...and it's never a coincidence.

Jacobson is a scumbag...and in no way does he deserve the benefit of any doubt. Really Task, you and sru are taking this conspiracy stuff to a new level ......It's sad

[thaskalos]

Wow, I was really surprised when I saw this remark was from you. What do you base your hatred of him on?
Hate who? David "My father was railroaded, and Hugable Tom was a misunderstanding" Jacobson?

If there is one thing that turns my stomach, it's a scumbag who starves to death these beautiful animals that have provided me with so much joy over the last 30 years.

To me...Jacobson is no better than that other pig, Ernie Paragallo.

About 20 years ago...I shared a table at a Chicago OTB with the well-known Chicago-area newspaper handicapper-trainer-owner Dave Feldman. One day, as we were talking about the "business" side of horse racing, he told me something that surprised me...which I remember vividly to this day.

He said..."Gus, if you got to know some of the people who are working on the backstretch...then you wouldn't bet on another horse in your entire life".

Unfortunately...I've gotten to know exactly what he meant.

[pandy]

The horse foundered (laminitis). Vets were treating the horse but the decision was made to put him down. I covered the story and read the entire transcripts of the trial. His father, who was hated by NYRA because he tried to help unionize the poorly-paid backstretch workers was on trial for murder when the so-called investigation was ordered. If you don't think that had anything to do with it you're naive. Trainers who don't feed their horses or treat them well don't win a lot of races (with no positives) the way Jacobson does; add to that the fact that Jacobson has several horses that have had held together for a sustained time and keep winning and running well and they look great on the track.

[thaskalos]

The horse foundered (laminitis). Vets were treating the horse but the decision was made to put him down. I covered the story and read the entire transcripts of the trial. His father, who was hated by NYRA because he tried to help unionize the poorly-paid backstretch workers was on trial for murder when the so-called investigation was ordered. If you don't think that had anything to do with it you're naive. Trainers who don't feed their horses or treat them well don't win a lot of races (with no positives) the way Jacobson does.
Ok, Pandy...then I guess I am naive.

I never pretended to be as knowledgeable as you...did I?

But even those who are naive like me are entitled to their opinions...no?

And my opinion remains that Jacobson is a scumbag.

[pandy]

I know a lot more about this case than most people since I covered it and that's why I am writing these things. Most of you really don't know what happened.

The trial was disturbing. First of all, the horse's owner supported Jacobson 100% and more than one vet testified that they had treated the horse and did not feel that the horse was being mistreated in any way. But even more disturbing, the critical testimony that ultimately lead to Jacobson's defeat in this case was provided by two backstretch workers. When I researched the background of these two guys, it turned out that both of them had criminal records (their backgrounds were not admissible, of course).

The Jacobson case was the most bizarre racing story I've ever covered or seen in the 35 years or so I've been covering racing.

[magwell]

Hate who? David "My father was railroaded, and Hugable Tom was a misunderstanding" Jacobson?

If there is one thing that turns my stomach, it's a scumbag who starves to death these beautiful animals that have provided me with so much joy over the last 30 years.

To me...Jacobson is no better than that other pig, Ernie Paragallo.

About 20 years ago...I shared a table at a Chicago OTB with the well-known Chicago-area newspaper handicapper-trainer-owner Dave Feldman. One day, as we were talking about the "business" side of horse racing, he told me something that surprised me...which I remember vividly to this day.

He said..."Gus, if you got to know some of the people who are working on the backstretch...then you wouldn't bet on another horse in your entire life".

Unfortunately...I've gotten to know exactly what he meant. I was a good friend of Dave Feldman and I guarantee he wasn't referring to trainers of his time as a owner -trainer- newspaper man when he made those comments..... in his day his trainer friends were Joe Bolero Lou Goldfine, Winick, Scot, etc. btw I think he wrote a book "woulda coulda shoulda" ........:)

[pandy]

These backstretch workers that Feldman was referring to are the same type that testified against David Jacobson. These two guys were lowlife drunks who were in and out of jail.

[magwell]

These backstretch workers that Feldman was referring to are the same type that testified against David Jacobson. These two guys were lowlife drunks who were in and out of jail. Yes, that had to what he was talking about.... not the trainers of his era Thx Pandy

[thaskalos]

I was a good friend of Dave Feldman and I guarantee he wasn't referring to trainers of his time as a owner -trainer- newspaper man when he made those comments..... in his day his trainer friends were Joe Bolero Lou Goldfine, Winick, Scot, etc. btw I think he wrote a book "woulda coulda shoulda" ........:)

This is hilarious...:D

I was the one sitting at the same table with Feldman at the Mud Bug OTM for over a year...but YOU are the one who is sure of what he was talking to me about.

And you were such a good friend of his...you think that he wrote the book "Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda"...

If you are not even sure that he wrote that book, how close of a friend of his do you claim to be...and how can you possibly know what he meant by what he told me?

You gave me a list of Feldman's trainer friends...as if I implied that it was his FRIENDS that he was talking about.

Thanks for the laugh, friend...:ThmbUp:

[thaskalos]

Yes, that had to what he was talking about.... not the trainers of his era Thx Pandy

You being such a close friend of Feldman's (:D )...you must know that the trainers of his era were running the most corrupt version of this game that the country had ever seen.

So drug infested was the game in Chicago during the era of Feldman...even the TV show 60 Miinutes aired a segment on it.

And you are telling me it was the stablehands that Feldman was talking about...:rolleyes:

[thaskalos]

These backstretch workers that Feldman was referring to are the same type that testified against David Jacobson. These two guys were lowlife drunks who were in and out of jail.

Boy, Pandy...I marvel at how well informed you are...

Not only do you know everything about the Jacobson "so-called" investigation...but you even know what Feldman was referring to when he was talking to me!

About the only thing you seem not to know is why Jacobson was gone from the game for a quarter of a century. Cj has asked you that question twice now...and I have yet to see your answer...

[cj]

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99430

This is why I don't like him. He does this stuff all the time. And, by the way, the horse in question (D'Tiger) has yet to run back, for those that said he was probably fine.

My opinion, based on how he handles his horses, is that he doesn't give a crap about them.

[magwell]

Task, take it easy my man, I was there during that time and I know all about those days, we are talking 40 yrs ago, was you there ?

[thaskalos]

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99430

This is why I don't like him. He does this stuff all the time. And, by the way, the horse in question (D'Tiger) has yet to run back, for those that said he was probably fine.

My opinion, based on how he handles his horses, is that he doesn't give a crap about them.

Yeah...a real credit to the game.

[thaskalos]

Task, take it easy my man, I was there during that time and I know all about those days, we are talking 40 yrs ago, was you there ?

Yes I was there, friend...and, unlike you...I know what I am talking about.

[magwell]

Yes I was there, friend...and, unlike you...I know what I am talking about. OK I think we best leave it at that, I'm sure I know a lot more about it than you do.......

[thaskalos]

OK I think we best leave it at that, I'm sure I know a lot more about it than you do.......

Yeah...it shows...

[pandy]

Boy, Pandy...I marvel at how well informed you are...

Not only do you know everything about the Jacobson "so-called" investigation...but you even know what Feldman was referring to when he was talking to me!

About the only thing you seem not to know is why Jacobson was gone from the game for a quarter of a century. Cj has asked you that question twice now...and I have yet to see your answer...


You associating something that Feldman said to you with the Jacobson case is absurd. I just mentioned that these type of backstretch workers were used to testify.

[pandy]

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99430

This is why I don't like him. He does this stuff all the time. And, by the way, the horse in question (D'Tiger) has yet to run back, for those that said he was probably fine.

My opinion, based on how he handles his horses, is that he doesn't give a crap about them.

Yeah I remember when you posted this, which is ridiculous, especially since you could post this type of thing over and over with just about every claiming trainer in the sport.

[thaskalos]

You associating something that Feldman said to you with the Jacobson case is absurd. I just mentioned that these type of backstretch workers were used to testify.
No...if you read your post (#63) again...you will see that you are clearly implying that you know what Feldman was referring to in his conversation with me.

[cj]

Yeah I remember when you posted this, which is ridiculous, especially since you could post this type of thing over and over with just about every claiming trainer in the sport.

Ridiculous to care what happens to horses that are treated like rental houses?

[pandy]

Ridiculous to care what happens to horses that are treated like rental houses?

You picked a race where a horse was vanned off after racing in a starter allowance, where he could not be claimed. That is ridiculous. All trainers have horses get vanned off, breakdown, etc.

[Saratoga_Mike]

You picked a race where a horse was vanned off after racing in a starter allowance, where he could NOT be claimed. That is ridiculous. All trainers have horses get vanned off, breakdown, etc.

I disagree with most everything you've said in this thread except the above statement (I added emphasis to the word "not"). Not a good example CJ, imo.

[cj]

You picked a race where a horse was vanned off after racing in a starter allowance, where he could not be claimed. That is ridiculous. All trainers have horses get vanned off, breakdown, etc.

You can't be this dense. He only did that AFTER he tried to dump the horse, which I'm sure you know. Sounds to me like you got a little too close during your reporting.

[cj]

I disagree with most everything you've said in this thread except the above statement (I added emphasis to the word "not"). Not a good example CJ, imo.

Like I said, the signs were already there from the prior race. I was big time against the horse that day. I don't even remember if I won, but I know I expected that horse to tank.

[Saratoga_Mike]

You can't be this dense. He only did that AFTER he tried to dump the horse, which I'm sure you know. Sounds to me like you got a little too close during your reporting.

CJ, so you're saying the horse was ready to breakdown/was unsound when he dropped him into a claimer, then he's sound for the starter? Your whole premise is he doesn't care for his horses (which from the early 80s case, I agree with). If that's the case, why didn't he find another claiming race and drop him even more? It just isn't a good example.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Like I said, the signs were already there from the prior race. I was big time against the horse that day. I don't even remember if I won, but I know I expected that horse to tank.

Sorry, putting the horse in a race where he could not be claimed doesn't make your case. It just doesn't. That said, I agree with just about everything else you've said here.

[cj]

CJ, so you're saying the horse was ready to breakdown/was unsound when he dropped him into a claimer, then he's sound for the starter? Your whole premise is he doesn't care for his horses (which from the early 80s case, I agree with). If that's the case, why didn't he find another claiming race and drop him even more? It just isn't a good example.

Wow, do I write that poorly? Where did I say he was sound for the starter race? I thought the exact opposite, which is why I was against him.

It was obvious to me nobody in New York was going to claim the horse, so he took him to Prx, probably to escape the more diligent vet. If you remember the timeframe, it will make more sense. Of course the last part is speculation, but it is all based on the initial drop.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Wow, do I write that poorly? Where did I say he was sound for the starter race? I thought the exact opposite, which is why I was against him.

It was obvious to me nobody in New York was going to claim the horse, so he took him to Prx, probably to escape the more diligent vet. If you remember the timeframe, it will make more sense. Of course the last part is speculation, but it is all based on the initial drop.

My point was why would he put him in a starter allowance where he could NOT be claimed if he was unsound? Why didn't he place him in a 5k claimer at PRX? Again, you aren't dumping a horse when you put him a race where he can't be claimed. Anyway, I don't agree with you on this point at all, but now I feel like I'm defending DJ and I don't want to do that.

[cj]

My point was why would he put him in a starter allowance where he could NOT be claimed if he was unsound? Why didn't he place him in a 5k claimer at PRX? Again, you aren't dumping a horse when you put him a race where he can't be claimed. Anyway, I don't agree with you on this point at all, but now I feel like I'm defending DJ and I don't want to do that.

The obvious answer is he was trying to squeeze one more race out of him once nobody would claim him. I can't know what his thinking was, but once he tried to dump him once, I tend to believe something was wrong, and continued to be wrong. And guess what? I was right.

[Saratoga_Mike]

The obvious answer is he was trying to squeeze one more race out of him once nobody would claim him. I can't know what his thinking was, but once he tried to dump him once, I tend to believe something was wrong, and continued to be wrong. And guess what? I was right.

If the horse was really unsound, he wouldn't have done that. He would have put him in for a tag and not risked a breakdown while he was training him. Anyway, I won't go any further on this matter, because overall I believe you're right.

[cj]

If the horse was really unsound, he wouldn't have done that. He would have put him in for a tag and not risked a breakdown while he was training him. Anyway, I won't go any further on this matter, because overall I believe you're right.

If he was really unsound? He was unsound! He was pulled up, and has yet to race again. So obviously he would do that. Now maybe he didn't know it, but I tend to doubt it based on the prior race.

I'll have more time the next couple days, and I'll dig up some better examples of Jacobsen dumping horses. There are many, including some ugly endings.

[Saratoga_Mike]

If he was really unsound? He was unsound! He was pulled up, and has yet to race again. So obviously he would do that. Now maybe he didn't know it, but I tend to doubt it based on the prior race.

I'll have more time the next couple days, and I'll dig up some better examples of Jacobsen dumping horses. There are many, including some ugly endings.

Better examples - so you concede my point at least on the margin! I knew I could win you over.

[NTamm1215]

If he was really unsound? He was unsound! He was pulled up, and has yet to race again. So obviously he would do that. Now maybe he didn't know it, but I tend to doubt it based on the prior race.

I'll have more time the next couple days, and I'll dig up some better examples of Jacobsen dumping horses. There are many, including some ugly endings.

Best recent example is Toque. Claimed for 25k at Aqu in March, returns for 6k in May at Monmouth, then plunges to 4k at Suffolk and is pulled up after a quarter-mile. He was 1/5 in the race at Suffolk.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Best recent example is Toque. Claimed for 25k at Aqu in March, returns for 6k in May at Monmouth, then plunges to 4k at Suffolk and is pulled up after a quarter-mile. He was 1/5 in the race at Suffolk.

That's a good one.

[PhantomOnTour]

Best recent example is Toque. Claimed for 25k at Aqu in March, returns for 6k in May at Monmouth, then plunges to 4k at Suffolk and is pulled up after a quarter-mile. He was 1/5 in the race at Suffolk.
Didn't know that about Toque - sad because he was a runner.
Nothing high class but he won a lot of races and ran his ass off.

He and Tutti Va Bene are two of my favorite NY claimers, although I haven't seen TVB lately and Toque had been at FL for awhile.

[magwell]

That's a good one. Not really because he was in to lose him according to that example, not in races he couldn't be claimed if the example is correct.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Not really because he was in to lose him according to that example, not in races he couldn't be claimed if the example is correct.

I have no idea what you're saying. The entire premise, whether it's correct or not, is he dumps unsound horses, looking for one last win before pawning them off on someone else.

[magwell]

Best recent example is Toque. Claimed for 25k at Aqu in March, returns for 6k in May at Monmouth, then plunges to 4k at Suffolk and is pulled up after a quarter-mile. He was 1/5 in the race at Suffolk. Mike this is what i'm saying is not the same as what you and cj were talking about this is obvious dumping of damaged goods.

[Stillriledup]

Economic Forecast, Runs a horrible race at Aqu on Feb 28, 48 Beyer and looks cheap and flimsy on tape, runs May 11 and basically breaks down in the stretch losing by 47, shows up at Suffolk and can't win at 4-5 while being aided by slop so today shows up at Belmont, looks like a million bucks on the track, wins off by 100 lengths absolutely strangled going away like a Grade 1 winner in a 'could be any kind' of effort.

Not sure where this came from, what did i miss?

Now, i can see him winning this race, but HOW he won is something that i don't think i could have predicted.

You?

[Saratoga_Mike]

Mike this is what i'm saying is not the same as what you and cj were talking about this is obvious dumping of damaged goods.

sorry - didn't read your other post clearly, I guess.

[pandy]

CJ, so you're saying the horse was ready to breakdown/was unsound when he dropped him into a claimer, then he's sound for the starter? Your whole premise is he doesn't care for his horses (which from the early 80s case, I agree with). If that's the case, why didn't he find another claiming race and drop him even more? It just isn't a good example.

Exactly.

[Stillriledup]

If the horse was really unsound, he wouldn't have done that. He would have put him in for a tag and not risked a breakdown while he was training him. Anyway, I won't go any further on this matter, because overall I believe you're right.

Sometimes trainers just get the next logical spot, sometimes its a starter, sometimes its a claimer. Also, you have to consider that the horse probably wasnt getting claimed anyway, so if he already resigned himself to the fact that he was stuck with the horse, he's just going to race him in the next spot that comes up, whether or not its a claimer.

[cj]

Exactly.

I already addressed this. How can you say he was sound? He clearly wasn't sound, and still isn't apparently.

I'm sure you have an explanation for the horse ntamm mentioned too.

[JustRalph]

I know a lot more about this case than most people since I covered it and that's why I am writing these things. Most of you really don't know what happened.

The trial was disturbing. First of all, the horse's owner supported Jacobson 100% and more than one vet testified that they had treated the horse and did not feel that the horse was being mistreated in any way. But even more disturbing, the critical testimony that ultimately lead to Jacobson's defeat in this case was provided by two backstretch workers. When I researched the background of these two guys, it turned out that both of them had criminal records (their backgrounds were not admissible, of course).

The Jacobson case was the most bizarre racing story I've ever covered or seen in the 35 years or so I've been covering racing.

Is your coverage available anywhere on the net? I would like to read it.

[Helles]

I know a lot more about this case than most people since I covered it and that's why I am writing these things. Most of you really don't know what happened.

The trial was disturbing. First of all, the horse's owner supported Jacobson 100% and more than one vet testified that they had treated the horse and did not feel that the horse was being mistreated in any way. But even more disturbing, the critical testimony that ultimately lead to Jacobson's defeat in this case was provided by two backstretch workers. When I researched the background of these two guys, it turned out that both of them had criminal records (their backgrounds were not admissible, of course).

The criminal records of witnesses can be used to impeach their credibility. Any felony and misdemeanors that demonstrate dishonesty can be brought to the attention of the jury. If they were not confronted with their criminal records during cross-examination, then the attorney was not doing his job.

[iceknight]

Is your coverage available anywhere on the net? I would like to read it. He mentioned (earlier in this thread or in the How do you define Class thread) that he is writing a book.. perhaps that's what pandy is referring to? ..EDIT.. or maybe he has separate coverage on this specific issue. feel free to ignore this comment.

[pandy]

Is your coverage available anywhere on the net? I would like to read it.


No, this was 32 years ago.

[cj]

No, this was 32 years ago.

Just curious, do you know who actually trains the horses listed as trained by Jacobson?

[pandy]

I would say David Jacobson is the trainer.

[cj]

I would say David Jacobson is the trainer.

Well, he is the listed trainer, but he doesn't actually do the training.

[classhandicapper]

He wasn't even in that bad of a slump, give me a break, no one who has a 20 win percentage wins 20% every week. There is no story here. You want to be suspicious, fine. As I said in an earlier post, when a trainer gets a positive they do sometimes go cold and you have to watch, but they don't bounce back a week or two later, they slump. This is much to do about nothing. Jacobson will most likely win a lower percentage for the next few months anyway because claiming barns have a tougher time with the big money barns coming in for the summer.

I played all 3 of his claims on Saturday.

The one that didn't win (finished 2nd), I had the exacta (with his other horse).

I read some of the stories about him going cold after surveillance was supposedly put on his barn, but I didn't find much evidence that his horses were running poorly very recently. He even had another win off the claim.

All 3 of those horses were sensible, had good back figures etc..

As a fan, I have an interest in how and why he wins so often off the claim, but as a gambler I bet on the ones I think are good value.

[NTamm1215]

I played all 3 of his claims on Saturday.

The one that didn't win (finished 2nd), I had the exacta (with his other horse).

I read some of the stories about him going cold after surveillance was supposedly put on his barn, but I didn't find much evidence that his horses were running poorly very recently. He even had another win off the claim.

All 3 of those horses were sensible, had good back figures etc..

As a fan, I have an interest in how and why he wins so often off the claim, but as a gambler I bet on the ones I think are good value.

He went 1-28 between June 5 and June 15, so you must have picked a good time to not pay attention to his horses.

[pandy]

Well, he is the listed trainer, but he doesn't actually do the training.

That may or not be true but you could say that Pletcher, Asmussen, and guys like that don't do the training, either. They have horses all over the country and their name is the listed trainer even when they haven't been in the state in months. Sure some trainers are more hands on than others but the bottom line is, the trainer manages the horses.

Years ago Tony Quartarola was working for the leading N.Y.harness trainer, Vinnie Aurigemma. I was in Aurigemma's barn at Roosevelt Raceway to interview him. Quartarola, who was probably around 20 at that time, had the gall to come up to me and tell me that I should be interviewing him because he's the who actually trains the horses.

My response was, "if you're as good as you say you are, then he deserves the credit for hiring you. That's one of the reasons why he's the leading trainer, he knows how to manage a big stable."

Jacobson has done an outstanding job with his stable. Some of the horses he's claimed, such as Saginaw, have had sustained runs, winning races, running gamely, spreading out over two years. Anyone who thinks that you can mistreat horses and get them to perform like over over a long period of time doesn't understand how difficult it is to keep these horses going. And he can't be using an illegal substance because the trainers who juice do not have horses that have long campaigns like that.

His style of training reminds me a little of Moschera because Jacobson rarely works his horse and only breezes them 3 or 4 furlongs, slow. He lets his horses do their running on the track, and boy do they.

[the little guy]

He went 1-28 between June 5 and June 15, so you must have picked a good time to not pay attention to his horses.

There weren't any good opportunities to redboard during that particular run.

[cj]

That may or not be true but you could say that Pletcher, Asmussen, and guys like that don't do the training, either. They have horses all over the country and their name is the listed trainer even when they haven't been in the state in months. Sure some trainers are more hands on than others but the bottom line is, the trainer manages the horses.

Years ago Tony Quartarola was working for the leading N.Y.harness trainer, Vinnie Aurigemma. I was in Aurigemma's barn at Roosevelt Raceway to interview him. Quartarola, who was probably around 20 at that time, had the gall to come up to me and tell me that I should be interviewing him because he's the who actually trains the horses.

My response was, "if you're as good as you say you are, then he deserves the credit for hiring you. That's one of the reasons why he's the leading trainer, he knows how to manage a big stable."

Jacobson has done an outstanding job with his stable. Some of the horses he's claimed, such as Saginaw, have had sustained runs, winning races, running gamely, spreading out over two years. Anyone who thinks that you can mistreat horses and get them to perform like over over a long period of time doesn't understand how difficult it is to keep these horses going. And he can't be using an illegal substance because the trainers who juice do not have horses that have long campaigns like that.

His style of training reminds me a little of Moschera because Jacobson rarely works his horse and only breezes them 3 or 4 furlongs, slow. He lets his horses do their running on the track, and boy do they.

I never said there was anything wrong with not being a hands on trainer, many guys do it.

As for mistreating horses, of course he isn't going to mistreat the ones that are winning good races. Lets see how he handles a horse like Saginaw when the bottom falls out. Will he take care of him, or will he wind up at Suffolk?

[Stillriledup]

The interesting thing to me, and its kind of disconcerting, is that these recent Jacobson runners, especially some of the new claims, have been running holes in the wind, being geared down to win by 5 when they all could have probably won by 20 if the jock wanted to. Artie Lovesto Party, who's kind of a hanger, won his most recent race by 8 and a half. Economic Forecast, who didnt look so great on video, won by 12 and a quarter with a jock who can't seem to get out of his own way these days, this one could probably have won by more than 20 if he wanted to, and this is not a quality horse at all, Curve Ball, another horse who struggled to beat horrendous horses opening week at Belmont, came back to destroy a much better field as first time Jacobson, in hand, could have won by 10 if he wanted. Hebert Hall, another first time claim, ran the final quarter in 22 and change in a 6F race and again, visually, looked shot out of a cannon running like a wild horse at the wire.



What does this all mean? I wish i had a clue.

Not only is this guy winning, but he's turning Artie Lovesto Party, Curve Ball, Economic Forecast and Hebert Hall into mini-secretariats. The only thing that's keeping it from being a Secretariat situation is the jocks won't let these horses run as fast as they can or else they all would be winning by 20 or more.

[pandy]

I never said there was anything wrong with not being a hands on trainer, many guys do it.

As for mistreating horses, of course he isn't going to mistreat the ones that are winning good races. Lets see how he handles a horse like Saginaw when the bottom falls out. Will he take care of him, or will he wind up at Suffolk?

I don't have a problem with owners/trainers shipping a horse to a lesser circuit when it is going off form, I would probably do the same thing. Some of the top trainers in the business ship horses to Suffolk, Penn National, Finger Lakes, whatever, it's common practice. If you think there's something wrong with that, I get where you're coming from but that's the business. Of course I follow harness racing too and many horses ship from the big tracks like Yonkers/Meadowlands to Freehold, Monticello, Saratoga, etc. when they get sour or lose their form.

[cj]

I don't have a problem with owners/trainers shipping a horse to a lesser circuit when it is going off form, I would probably do the same thing. Some of the top trainers in the business ship horses to Suffolk, Penn National, Finger Lakes, whatever, it's common practice. If you think there's something wrong with that, I get where you're coming from but that's the business. Of course I follow harness racing too and many horses ship from the big tracks like Yonkers/Meadowlands to Freehold, Monticello, Saratoga, etc. when they get sour or lose their form.

I'm not talking about horses that just "lose form", I'm talking about horses that can't finish races after shipping, which seems to happen to Jacobson's horses more than it should. I'm by no means saying he is the only culprit. I remember Doug O'Neill, Derby winning trainer, having some very ugly incidents too. Baffert had a few ugly ones. So no, I don't mean to single out David Jacobson, but it is a very smelly part of the game that should go away.

[Stillriledup]

I don't have a problem with owners/trainers shipping a horse to a lesser circuit when it is going off form, I would probably do the same thing. Some of the top trainers in the business ship horses to Suffolk, Penn National, Finger Lakes, whatever, it's common practice. If you think there's something wrong with that, I get where you're coming from but that's the business. Of course I follow harness racing too and many horses ship from the big tracks like Yonkers/Meadowlands to Freehold, Monticello, Saratoga, etc. when they get sour or lose their form.

Seems like Jacobson doesnt want to have a horse break down on a NYRA track, but doesnt really care if they break down elsewhere. But, i guess when you're being 'watched' you don't want to give 'them' any more reasons to want you gone.

[therussmeister]

Seems like Jacobson doesnt want to have a horse break down on a NYRA track, but doesnt really care if they break down elsewhere. But, i guess when you're being 'watched' you don't want to give 'them' any more reasons to want you gone.
I haven't played Suffolk much this year, but every Jacobson shipper I've seen there was coming off a vet scratch in New York. None of them won.

[lamboguy]

I haven't played Suffolk much this year, but every Jacobson shipper I've seen there was coming off a vet scratch in New York. None of them won.he sent a bunch of horses to Sulfolk and Assimicopolis is the trainer for him there. i don't know what that means, but when you tell me his horses were vet scratches in New York, reading between the lines they could be very sore horses. in Massachusetts they let you run with a very high degree of bute.

i don't think that to many people would like to invest their money on a proposition like that. those horses are always going to be bet down too.

[Rise Over Run]

Just curious, do you know who actually trains the horses listed as trained by Jacobson?
John McCaslin? Maybe he's moving to the big time after perfecting this at Parx. :lol:

[castaway01]

he sent a bunch of horses to Sulfolk and Assimicopolis is the trainer for him there. i don't know what that means, but when you tell me his horses were vet scratches in New York, reading between the lines they could be very sore horses. in Massachusetts they let you run with a very high degree of bute.

i don't think that to many people would like to invest their money on a proposition like that. those horses are always going to be bet down too.

He's had horses run at Suffolk under his own name as well.

[tophatmert]

Frank LaBocetta Jr.

[cj]

Frank LaBocetta Jr.

Almost...

[Stillriledup]

I haven't played Suffolk much this year, but every Jacobson shipper I've seen there was coming off a vet scratch in New York. None of them won.

He's shipped 'cripples' to Maryland and won with them, but there is a pattern of him getting the dangerous horses out of town as fast as he can. This horse who won the other day with Cohen by "20" lengths was coming off a race at Suffolk where the horse lost by a nose at 4-5 with a 68 Beyer, so, the fact that the horse shipped back to NY was probably a good sign.

[the little guy]

He's shipped 'cripples' to Maryland and won with them, but there is a pattern of him getting the dangerous horses out of town as fast as he can. This horse who won the other day with Cohen by "20" lengths was coming off a race at Suffolk where the horse lost by a nose at 4-5 with a 68 Beyer, so, the fact that the horse shipped back to NY was probably a good sign.


To be fair, despite winning by over a dozen lengths, Economic Forecast only improved his Beyer fig two points to a 70. As you know, large margins are frequently condemnations of the competition.

[Maximillion]

he sent a bunch of horses to Sulfolk and Assimicopolis is the trainer for him there. i don't know what that means, but when you tell me his horses were vet scratches in New York, reading between the lines they could be very sore horses. in Massachusetts they let you run with a very high degree of bute.

i don't think that to many people would like to invest their money on a proposition like that. those horses are always going to be bet down too.

Imo, if your playing tracks like Suffolk and FL, the Nyra horses shipping in there are almost by definition....underlays.True you might not want to bet against some of them......but im willing to get aggressive versus the ones I see as vulnerable.

[Stillriledup]

To be fair, despite winning by over a dozen lengths, Economic Forecast only improved his Beyer fig two points to a 70. As you know, large margins are frequently condemnations of the competition.

I dont put much stock in wet track numbers at a circuit i'm not familiar with, but he had a 48 Beyer on Feb 28th and visually, looked like crap in the stretch, no extension at all, certainly didnt look like the same horse who won geared down on June 23rd, look like 2 different horses, night and day.

[the little guy]

How is Jacobson's day going so far today?

[cj]

How is Jacobson's day going so far today?

Well, to be fair, nobody posted yesterday either.

[cj]

But, to answer the question:

R1, Vet scratch and a 3rd.
R3, Vet Scratch and a 4th.
R5, Trainer scratch and TBD. (Edit to a bad 4th).

[Stillriledup]

How is Jacobson's day going so far today?

How was it supposed to go?

[the little guy]

How was it supposed to go?

Probably better than a 2:5 running 3rd in a five horse field and a 6:5 filling out the super.

[johnhannibalsmith]

... in Massachusetts they let you run with a very high degree of bute.

...

Mass rules say 2 micros per milli, which would make it identical to New York and a whole lot of other states. Unless you mean that they don't actually test.

[Stillriledup]

Probably better than a 2:5 running 3rd in a five horse field and a 6:5 filling out the super.

Reaganomics and Gravitate are "Creatures" these arent exactly ringing endorsements of the fact that he's 'human after all'.

Those 2 were not first time claims, the public dropped the ball yesterday letting him pay 8 and change and 11 and change on two first time claims, both those horses should have paid 4 and change, so, the public, being mad at themselves for that, overbet his garbage that ran today.

He had a horse in the first race that was going to win by 20 lengths at 1-9 had he run, not sure why he scratched, maybe he didnt like the post.

[pandy]

Economic Forecast, Runs a horrible race at Aqu on Feb 28, 48 Beyer and looks cheap and flimsy on tape, runs May 11 and basically breaks down in the stretch losing by 47, shows up at Suffolk and can't win at 4-5 while being aided by slop so today shows up at Belmont, looks like a million bucks on the track, wins off by 100 lengths absolutely strangled going away like a Grade 1 winner in a 'could be any kind' of effort.

Not sure where this came from, what did i miss?

Now, i can see him winning this race, but HOW he won is something that i don't think i could have predicted.

You?

Horses often run higher figs when dropped down to low levels and E. Forecast was dropping to the bottom in NY a MC16000 after being claimed for more than twice that price. Even though he won by 12, he only ran an 80 fig (Bris) which is 6 points below his career top. It was also his third start off a layoff. His win was not very surprising and he was the 9-5 favorite in very weak field and yes I suspected that he would win easily if he ran one of his better efforts. As I've said in prior posts, Jacobson wins a lot of races with dropdowns. As for his poor effort on 5/11 that you noted, the pace was :22 and :44.4 in that race and the winner Derby Watch was huge and won by 11.

[pandy]

Economic Forecast back in to run Saturday, 6 days after blowout win. Stepping up but in a very weak field. By the way, prior to his last start, here is the printout from my Diamond System. Based on his prior start, he had a very strong pace advantage, big Diamond Rating advantage, and ESR of 12 was a huge advantage. ESR is my early speed rating. The Diamond Rating itself, which gave him a 14 point advantage, very big, is not just a pace rating, it also takes into consideration how the horse finished against the pace of the race. So this was quite strong.

http://www.handicappingwinners.com/E_FORECAST.jpg

[cj]

Economic Forecast back in to run Saturday, 6 days after blowout win. Stepping up but in a very weak field. By the way, prior to his last start, here is the printout from my Diamond System. Based on his prior start, he had a very strong pace advantage, big Diamond Rating advantage, and ESR of 12 was a huge advantage. ESR is my early speed rating. The Diamond Rating itself, which gave him a 14 point advantage, very big, is not just a pace rating, it also takes into consideration how the horse finished against the pace of the race. So this was quite strong.

http://www.handicappingwinners.com/E_FORECAST.jpg

I would think almost anyone had the horse as having a big advantage in his last race.

[pandy]

Especially if you take into consideration some of his best starts before the claim and since he was third off the layoff and down in class for a barn that wins a high percentage off the drop, he figured to be set for one of his better efforts. Tomorrow at a potential 2-5 or less is a no bet although I'm sure many will use him as a single in exotics against that slow field. I reluctantly picked him because I couldn't make a case for anyone else.

[cj]

I'd take Revere, but he'll probably be short on price too.

[classhandicapper]

He went 1-28 between June 5 and June 15, so you must have picked a good time to not pay attention to his horses.

There is a difference between win% and running to expectations.

There is also a matter of random fluctuations.

Going into Saturday, I looked at the handful of horses that had run very recently and saw no reason to expect disappointing efforts on Saturday. I played his horses off their form and on the expectation that a move to Jacobson would be a net positive.

[classhandicapper]

There weren't any good opportunities to redboard during that particular run.

Point taken, but I didn't play any during that period. I might have if I had time to handicap during the week, but I am busy these days and have only been playing on weekends, mostly Saturdays. I also sometimes miss winners during the week.

If you follow my comments here, there is no shortage of them where I talk about my losers too. I may be one of the few honest horse players you will find when it comes to talking about races after the fact. You can trust that much.

[NTamm1215]

There is a difference between win% and running to expectations.

There is also a matter of random fluctuations.

Going into Saturday, I looked at the handful of horses that had run very recently and saw no reason to expect disappointing efforts on Saturday. I played his horses off their form and on the expectation that a move to Jacobson would be a net positive.

21 of those 28 horses went off at 5-1 or less.

You really didn't need to reply. You redboarded three wins and hadn't been paying attention to how his horses were doing. That's fine. Congrats.

[Stillriledup]

Nobody bumping to congratulate Jacobson on breaking the meet-wins record at Belmont?

Anyone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg

[magwell]

Nobody bumping to congratulate Jacobson on breaking the meet-wins record at Belmont?

Anyone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg WOW !! :ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

[TheEdge07]

I just have one question

What is he using?

[lamboguy]

I just have one question

What is he using?maybe this stuff http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/79187/stiff-penalties-tied-to-purple-pain-tb-500


but i am sure he is doing other stuff that is 100% legal. i know because i was looking at horses on Television and was predicting what he was going to claim and i was right over half the time. i put out a horse in New York yesterday that fit into his pattern of claiming but i knew he wasn't going to take it because my horse was already a long time zero and didn't have the physical problem that he usually claims. he won't claim my horse next time either because she won't be tagged up in Saratoga.

[pandy]

I wonder if he also set the record for the amount of horses run at the meet. He claims more horses than anyone and doesn't race the horses over their heads.

[iceknight]

I just have one question

What is he using? Oats and Poland Spring water.

[Stillriledup]

He should claim a few horses at Saratoga, im surprised he's being really frugal and smart about his claims...you know, some trainers just claim anything..not this guy, no sir ree bob, the horse has to have a lot going for him before THIS GUY puts in a claim. :eek:

[magwell]

Wins the Forego gr1 claimed may 24 for 35k .....Congrats

[Stillriledup]

I just have one question

What is he using?

An anchor? :D

[classhandicapper]

I played a couple recently that didn't run the way I expected (hoped?), but that was on turf and his record on turf is not as good as on dirt.

[ezpace]

but anybody who has spent considerable time
on the back side knows that there are very
considerate trainers of claiming horses and there
are properly named scumbags who view them
as {"day money collectors" plus purse money ,so they
do whatever to them that it take$$$$
Some owners make the trainer buy half the claim
this usually promotes MUCH better care.
NYRA is trying hard IMO but the creep Trainers have
notest drugs and in some states "help" in the test barn
if there iS THERE IS ONE BEING USED.

[onefast99]

but anybody who has spent considerable time
on the back side knows that there are very
considerate trainers of claiming horses and there
are properly named scumbags who view them
as {"day money collectors" plus purse money ,so they
do whatever to them that it take$$$$
Some owners make the trainer buy half the claim
this usually promotes MUCH better care.
NYRA is trying hard IMO but the creep Trainers have
notest drugs and in some states "help" in the test barn
if there iS THERE IS ONE BEING USED.
The owners make the trainer buy half? I know some owners who give half to the trainer but thats just because they want to nothing more!

[Stillriledup]

Normandy. Race 5 at Laurel, Dec 19th. 10-1 ML, looked horrendous on paper, was long in exotics but sat up on the board at 3-1/7-2 at the gate load (yes, i knew it was fakeout money) and the horse went from 7-2 to 7-1 last flash.

Refunds? You betcha.

[Dark Horse]

Jacobson is a veritable miracle worker. *cough*

Check out the #3 horse after he was claimed by this trainer, and then claimed again.

http://www.brisnet.com/php/bw_pdf_viewer.php?track=SAR&race=8&param1=1625&param2=3640&param3=1337296


Not to worry. NY racing has special drug policies for the big races...

[PaceAdvantage]

Horse ran a similar hole in the wind for Schosberg at Belmont if you look to his oldest running line showing...also at the 25k level...cough cough...

[FantasticDan]

0uz_dehG2M8

[cj]

Scratched Immortal Eyes today...this story isn't going to end well.

[Trips]

The previous owners who made all the money and then sold him should be discussed more than Jacobson in this case.

[cj]

The previous owners who made all the money and then sold him should be discussed more than Jacobson in this case.

The owner died.

[cj]

http://www.theracingbiz.com/2014/04/21/bobby-abbo-owner-immortal-eyes-passes/

[Trips]

The owner died.
Didn't know that.
Thanks

[moneyandland]

Horse ran a similar hole in the wind for Schosberg at Belmont if you look to his oldest running line showing...also at the 25k level...cough cough...

Not to mention the huge race he was trained by Michelle Dutrow err Nevin, he ran just average for Jacobson

[VeryOldMan]

Scratched Immortal Eyes today...this story isn't going to end well.
Entered as MTO today and scratched after it stayed on the turf. I started the locked thread about IE - I hope this one ends well, but am likewise concerned for a horse that has earned its keep.

[Dark Horse]

Not to mention the huge race he was trained by Michelle Dutrow err Nevin, he ran just average for Jacobson

Nevin... Dutrow's girlfriend that passed her trainer's test right after Dutrow was shelved for ten years.

Jacobson, Rodriguez, Nevin. In my book they belong not only not on the racetrack, but in jail. Right alongside Dutrow. Ten year sentences.

[Stillriledup]

Scratched Immortal Eyes today...this story isn't going to end well.

Running in 20 mins (Aug 4, Race 5, Saratoga)

[Tom]

Third as POE.
$8.90 to "win"

[Thebigguy]

He has one off of Baffert Friday, might be the horse to beat.

[Mineshaft]

Bug boy rode Immortal eyes today. Usually when that happens there something wrong with the horse because a trainers thinking is the bug boy will let the horse run where as an experienced jock will not plus u get weight off.

[Thebigguy]

Bug boy rode Immortal eyes today. Usually when that happens there something wrong with the horse because a trainers thinking is the bug boy will let the horse run where as an experienced jock will not plus u get weight off.

Is this usually how it works? Never heard anything like this before....

[BIG49010]

Today at Saratoga I saw the big bald headed guy who is with this barn, who is he? The assistant trainer?

He seems to be around when they win, and being they haven't been winning at their normal percentage, is he at MTH or somewhere else?

[bello]

Big Bald guy is saddles all their horses at the NYRA tracks...Not Jacobson.

[Stillriledup]

Immortal eyes, 2 mins to post at Spa.

[cj]

Really hoping this has a better ending than what I'm anticipating. Horse was next to last, beaten 10+ for a 25k tag.

[westny]

Really hoping this has a better ending than what I'm anticipating. Horse was next to last, beaten 10+ for a 25k tag.

Will disappear...then race in some podunk track...pulled-up...vanned-off..broke down...Jacobsen's MO

[Stillriledup]

Will disappear...then race in some podunk track...pulled-up...vanned-off..broke down...Jacobsen's MO

You mean Jacobson has sent horses to Finger Lakes, Monmouth and Suffolk, dropped them to 5k and they never returned?

I think if that's NOT the case, someone will chime in and say so.

Anyone want to chime in and say so?

[bello]

Yep....Million Dollar earner...Shows the greed of the current owner and the past owner. They will race him until he breaks down or gets shipped off to slaughter for dog food or someones dinner table in Europe.

Can be the poster horse for the next Peta campaign......Oh oh....I mentioned PETA.

I have said this before...I am NOT a Peta person....But the racing community sometimes invites the treatment they receive from this bunch.

[thaskalos]

Yep....Million Dollar earner...Shows the greed of the current owner and the past owner. They will race him until he breaks down or gets shipped off to slaughter for dog food or someones dinner table in Europe.

Can be the poster horse for the next Peta campaign......Oh oh....I mentioned PETA.

I have said this before...I am NOT a Peta person....But the racing community sometimes invites the treatment they receive from this bunch.

No doubt. :ThmbUp:

[thaskalos]

If Immortal Eyes doesn't deserve retirement at this age...then who does? Instead...this poor horse finds himself in the stable of the most despicable trainer in the game.

And WE say that life ain't fair...

[cj]

Yep....Million Dollar earner...Shows the greed of the current owner and the past owner. They will race him until he breaks down or gets shipped off to slaughter for dog food or someones dinner table in Europe.

Can be the poster horse for the next Peta campaign......Oh oh....I mentioned PETA.

I have said this before...I am NOT a Peta person....But the racing community sometimes invites the treatment they receive from this bunch.

The past owner died, he holds no blame here.

[thaskalos]

The past owner died, he holds no blame here.

Who in Abbo's estate decided to sell the horse to Jacobson?

[cj]

Who in Abbo's estate decided to sell the horse to Jacobson?

I have no idea, but can't put that on the owner...that was my only point. The horse was still in very good form at the time of his passing, the downturn has come after the sale.

[thaskalos]

I have no idea, but can't put that on the owner...that was my only point. The horse was still in very good form at the time of his passing, the downturn has come after the sale.
Another sad part of this scenario is that Abbo obviously cared alot about this horse; he had stated so repeatedly.

[bello]

Thanks cj...I stand corrected

Seems like Abbo did love tis horse and would likely turn over in his grave watching the deterioration in Jacobsen's barn. Seemed like a charitable guy as well...Too bad the estate did not see fit to have this horse retired to the farm.

http://www.theracingbiz.com/2014/04/21/bobby-abbo-owner-immortal-eyes-passes/

[VeryOldMan]

If Immortal Eyes doesn't deserve retirement at this age...then who does? Instead...this poor horse finds himself in the stable of the most despicable trainer in the game.

And WE say that life ain't fair...

My previous IE thread got shut down so I'll simply chime in with a big AMEN to this.

[cutchemist42]

If Immortal Eyes doesn't deserve retirement at this age...then who does? Instead...this poor horse finds himself in the stable of the most despicable trainer in the game.

And WE say that life ain't fair...

:ThmbUp:

[cutchemist42]

https://twitter.com/primeequine/status/502856559362600961

Prime Equine
‏@primeequine
IT'S OFFICIAL!!! IMMORTAL EYES IS HOME!!!


Someone grabbed him?

[Stillriledup]

https://twitter.com/primeequine/status/502856559362600961

Prime Equine
‏@primeequine
IT'S OFFICIAL!!! IMMORTAL EYES IS HOME!!!


Someone grabbed him?

Be nice to know more about who's saying "hes home" but if its true, great news.

[thaskalos]

https://twitter.com/primeequine/status/502856559362600961

Prime Equine
‏@primeequine
IT'S OFFICIAL!!! IMMORTAL EYES IS HOME!!!


Someone grabbed him?

Typical horse racing industry message. Let's not give the fan any more info than is absolutely necessary. :)

[Stillriledup]

Typical horse racing industry message. Let's not give the fan any more info than is absolutely necessary. :)

Exactly. Even people who have been following this horse and his career closely still have no idea what this really means. I know the 140 characters and all, but geez, how about something we can hang our hats on.

[VeryOldMan]

It appears "home" means back with his previous trainer. Damn. At least we know Dilodovico did right by him on the way up - here's hoping he does right on the way down.

[horses4courses]

2 horses that were near million $ earners euthanized in two days.

RIP Cherokee Artist and Strapping Groom

[nijinski]

2 horses that were near million $ earners euthanized in two days.

RIP Cherokee Artist and Strapping Groom

Some better news than earlier reports on Strapping Groom .
His injury is career ending but it looks like he's going to make
it . So very hopeful !

[Cholly]

http://www.drf.com/news/strapping-groom-injured-retired-7

[pandy]

That's good news. Really good racehorse.

[horses4courses]

Some better news than earlier reports on Strapping Groom .
His injury is career ending but it looks like he's going to make
it . So very hopeful !

Thank you.
That's good to hear :ThmbUp:

[EMD4ME]

Are we going to have a fuzzy warm winners circle presentation for the kindest warmest trainer of our lovable horses, David Jacobson after today's 3rd race?

His 1000th win?

[jk3521]

Are we going to have a fuzzy warm winners circle presentation for the kindest warmest trainer of our lovable horses, David Jacobson after today's 3rd race?

His 1000th win?
Would be nice if he showed up in the paddock once in a while instead of his assistants. Can't remember the last time I saw his face there.

[EMD4ME]

Would be nice if he showed up in the paddock once in a while instead of his assistants. Can't remember the last time I saw his face there.

Maybe they do a body search on the way to the winner's circle? :rolleyes:

[tophatmert]

He has been just another guy lately and Rudy has been just another bad trainer lately.

[taxicab]

He has been just another guy lately and Rudy has been just another bad trainer lately.


The 24 hour drive through pharmacy near the track has been closed for renovations.... :eek:

[EMD4ME]

The 24 hour drive through pharmacy near the track has been closed for renovations.... :eek:

What a ko Inky Dinky!

They seem to disappear and then come Nov 1st, they blast out 8 out of 10 winners....

[EMD4ME]

What a ko Inky Dinky!

They seem to disappear and then come Nov 1st, they blast out 8 out of 10 winners....


I know it's the summer but it's so nice to see him have a goose egg. Not only at the SPA but he was ice cold during the latter part of the belmont meet as well.

He is dropping horses from the sky and can't win.

It was nice to see his new horse, off a claim from Mott, LOSE and for that horse to get beat by a horse that was claimed from him :D

Hope i don't put him in the winner's circle today as he has a major dropper in the last and an entry in race 5 that looks to maybe have a shot.

I hope he gets shutout for the meet!

[magwell]

I know it's the summer but it's so nice to see him have a goose egg. Not only at the SPA but he was ice cold during the latter part of the belmont meet as well.

He is dropping horses from the sky and can't win.

It was nice to see his new horse, off a claim from Mott, LOSE and for that horse to get beat by a horse that was claimed from him :D

Hope i don't put him in the winner's circle today as he has a major dropper in the last and an entry in race 5 that looks to maybe have a shot.

I hope he gets shutout for the meet!I don't understand the hate here, whats your problem with this trainer ?

[cj]

I don't understand the hate here, whats your problem with this trainer ?

I suspect a troll post here. Whether you agree or not, I'm sure you know why some people don't like him. It has been discussed here many times.

[tophatmert]

I suspect his best days are behind him unless he finds more partners who are willing to pay his way. He has been dropping big and losing bigger with a lot of horses that he owns. I have not seen any move ups of note from him all year. Rudyrods claimers and older horses are bad also even the great Gary Gullo has calmed down.

[tophatmert]

For a few years he was claiming everything now not so much. It is the claim and move up 10 points m. o. that seems to be missing.

[pandy]

I don't understand the hate here, whats your problem with this trainer ?

I'm probably one of the few that has posted on this that doesn't have a problem with Jacobson, for these reasons,1). He doesn't have a lot of drug positives like many of the top trainer, such as, Asmussun, Baffert, Amoss, etc. 2). Some lady wants to get him banned from racing because he had several horses break down, but she has not facts and completely forgets to mention that during the years she outlined he ran a ton of horses and he is a claiming trainer who claims a lot of low priced horses. When I analyzed his breakdowns against the amount of horses he ran, it was way lower than the average for breakdowns per start. 3). He has had many claims where the horse not only had a tremendous season after his claim, but he rested horses, brought them back the following year, and they had another good season. Drug trainers don't keep horses going very long like that. 4). He doesn't improve horses as much as people think. Many of his wins are below the level of his claim. He is not some obvious miracle worker like Navarro or the trainers that Michael Gill used, Oscar Barrera like stuff.

Now I know some people hate him because he drops horses way down in class, and I get that, but that is how you play claiming game.


Of course there are many on here who also hate Kent Desourmeaux, one of the most naturally talented riders of all time. I love him because I've hit a ton of winners with him, especially on the turf.

[cj]

Of course there are many on here who also hate Kent Desourmeaux, one of the most naturally talented riders of all time. I love him because I've hit a ton of winners with him, especially on the turf.

Few deny that, they hate on him because he often rides hard ONLY to win, not for other placings.

[cj]

Another dump job attempt with Spa City Fever in the Spa finale today.

[pandy]

Few deny that, they hate on him because he often rides hard ONLY to win, not for other placings.


I actually hadn't realized that, never remember losing a bet because he didn't appear to be trying. But I'm somewhat ambiguous when it comes to the whip. I feel that whipping is generally misconceived by many bettors. They see the horse getting pounded and they think the whip is helping but personally I think that many if not most horses are already doing the best they can just with hand urging and maybe some light whip encouragement. The horses know they're in a race, they're trying as hard as they can. What's more important is a jockey's timing, soft hands, and the connection the rider has with the horse. Some riders, and in my opinion, not than many, have a natural gift and horses run better for them, and Desourmeaux definitely falls into this elite category. Julie Krone wasn't a big whipper either but she didn't need it because the horses ran their eyeballs out for her because she was special.

[cj]

I actually hadn't realized that, never remember losing a bet because he didn't appear to be trying. But I'm somewhat ambiguous when it comes to the whip. I feel that whipping is generally misconceived by many bettors. They see the horse getting pounded and they think the whip is helping but personally I think that many if not most horses are already doing the best they can just with hand urging and maybe some light whip encouragement. The horses know they're in a race, they're trying as hard as they can. What's more important is a jockey's timing, soft hands, and the connection the rider has with the horse. Some riders, and in my opinion, not than many, have a natural gift and horses run better for them, and Desourmeaux definitely falls into this elite category. Julie Krone wasn't a big whipper either but she didn't need it because the horses ran their eyeballs out for her because she was special.

He's been fined numerous times for this, and I think suspended too but I'm not positive. I'm not talking about the whip, I'm talking about not riding out for 2nd/3rd/4th, just wrapping up on horses and getting beat.

[VeryOldMan]

Now I know some people hate him because he drops horses way down in class, and I get that, but that is how you play claiming game.

Forget the Kent Desormeaux reference.

Some of us see Jacobson often trying to squeeze the last drop from the lemon.

And I wonder what we owe the warriors he sends out. His record is NOT good on that front. That's all.

[pandy]

He's been fined numerous times for this, and I think suspended too but I'm not positive. I'm not talking about the whip, I'm talking about not riding out for 2nd/3rd/4th, just wrapping up on horses and getting beat.

I haven't seen that, but that is not good.

[pandy]

Another dump job attempt with Spa City Fever in the Spa finale today.


See, some of this stuff I don't get. That's how you play the claiming game, I don't see what's wrong with it, especially since it's been that way for decades and all of the top claiming trainers do that. Spa City Fever finished 4th, got claimed, but Jacobson claimed one out of there. What's the difference whether you drop them one class or four? I can't understand the problem, that's the claiming game.

[cj]

See, some of this stuff I don't get. That's how you play the claiming game, I don't see what's wrong with it, especially since it's been that way for decades and all of the top claiming trainers do that. Spa City Fever finished 4th, got claimed, but Jacobson claimed one out of there. What's the difference whether you drop them one class or four? I can't understand the problem, that's the claiming game.

Just because something has always been done a certain way doesn't make it right. The world is changing. The claiming game should too. And Jacobson takes it to new lows, dumping horses that have won tons of money rather than just retire them.

[pandy]

The trainers that bother me are the ones that are involved in criminal activity, and giving a horse an illegal drug is a felony, attempting to alter a sporting event. This is a much, much bigger problem than trainers who drop horses down when they feel they've gotten as much as they can out of them.

[cj]

The trainers that bother me are the ones that are involved in criminal activity, and giving a horse an illegal drug is a felony, attempting to alter a sporting event. This is a much, much bigger problem than trainers who drop horses down when they feel they've gotten as much as they can out of them.

They bother me too, they just rarely seem to get caught.

[tophatmert]

Spa City Fever was claimed today by his breeder.

[pandy]

Spa City Fever was claimed today by his breeder.


Interesting. It may be retirement time.

[westny]

Interesting. It may be retirement time.

Spa City Fever is 9 yrs old. Raced 63 times and earned 703,000 and it wasn't in 12k claiming races like today's race.

Kudos to his breeder who claimed him...especially if he retires the horse.

[EMD4ME]

Spa City Fever is 9 yrs old. Raced 63 times and earned 703,000 and it wasn't in 12k claiming races like today's race.

Kudos to his breeder who claimed him...especially if he retires the horse.

:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: I agree.

[Stillriledup]

The trainers that bother me are the ones that are involved in criminal activity, and giving a horse an illegal drug is a felony, attempting to alter a sporting event. This is a much, much bigger problem than trainers who drop horses down when they feel they've gotten as much as they can out of them.

They're both problems. You don't sound too sensitive towards animals and their welfare, unless I'm interpreting it wrong?

[pandy]

They're both problems. You don't sound too sensitive towards animals and their welfare, unless I'm interpreting it wrong?

It's just the reality of the sport. People are complaining about Jacobson who never breaks the rules when we have trainers who are involved in felonious criminal activity ruining the sport and in some cases causing serious physical harm to the horses with debilitating drugs.

We have to focus on the serious problems. Legally you can race a 9 year old horse and you can put it in at any claiming level you want. If people want to complain about older horses racing they should point the finger to the people who run the sport not the trainers who are playing by the rules. Although I don't see what could be done about it, we already have age restrictions.

This idea that a trainer is a bad guy because he drops a horse in class is a grey area in my opinion. No matter how you look at it, this is a dangerous sport for both animals and riders and that's the reality. What concerns me the most is drugs, especially illegal substances, which really harm these animals. Personally, I also think Lasix is bad for the horses and should be banned. Another thing that bothers me are grueling races like the Grand National, which in my opinion is inhumane, too long, too many jumps, too many fatalities. I care about the horses, but I'm a realist.

[cj]

Spa City Fever is 9 yrs old. Raced 63 times and earned 703,000 and it wasn't in 12k claiming races like today's race.

Kudos to his breeder who claimed him...especially if he retires the horse.

Good for him, and this is why many can't stand Jacobson. He never does this, he leaves it up to someone else to retire a horse. He'd rather run for 2k at Hazel Park then retire a horse.

[Stillriledup]

It's just the reality of the sport. People are complaining about Jacobson who never breaks the rules when we have trainers who are involved in felonious criminal activity ruining the sport and in some cases causing serious physical harm to the horses with debilitating drugs.

We have to focus on the serious problems. Legally you can race a 9 year old horse and you can put it in at any claiming level you want. If people want to complain about older horses racing they should point the finger to the people who run the sport not the trainers who are playing by the rules. Although I don't see what could be done about it, we already have age restrictions.

This idea that a trainer is a bad guy because he drops a horse in class is a grey area in my opinion. No matter how you look at it, this is a dangerous sport for both animals and riders and that's the reality. What concerns me the most is drugs, especially illegal substances, which really harm these animals. Personally, I also think Lasix is bad for the horses and should be banned. Another thing that bothers me are grueling races like the Grand National, which in my opinion is inhumane, too long, too many jumps, too many fatalities. I care about the horses, but I'm a realist.

It's not the dropping in class that's the problem, it's the WHY is he dropping in class and how far and fast he's dropping that we are concerned about.

[tophatmert]

For several years he would claim a horse and win the most lucrative conditions with big jump ups. After that most of the horses would start to decline. While he may not have had a large amount of breakdowns he has had more horses go from 50,000 to 5,000 in a few weeks than I have ever seen in my 40 years of playing. He did keep some horses running well for a longer period of time, when you can claim all of the horses some are going to have some natural qualities that may not need as much assistance as others. That's it, now I'm just pissed off .

[pandy]

It's not the dropping in class that's the problem, it's the WHY is he dropping in class and how far and fast he's dropping that we are concerned about.


I get it, I totally understand. But it's not against the rules, and perhaps you should direct you anger at his owners, particularly the Drawing Away Stable. It's easy to say retire those old horses when it's not your money. It's almost impossible not to lose your shirt owning racehorses. If we made it tougher for people to play the claiming game, you may as well shut the sport down. Look at the horses racing at most of the tracks, outside of the few major ones, most of the horses are low level claimers. And many of those horses like to race.

I remember a few times in harness racing when a former class horse was at the top age limit, 14, and was racing in $5,000 claimers. People were telling the trainer that he should retire the horse and that it was a shame the former class horse was in so cheap. The trainer said, he'll have to retire at the end of the year anyway and why should we retire him, he loves to race and he's still winning.

[thaskalos]

I get it, I totally understand. But it's not against the rules, and perhaps you should direct you anger at his owners, particularly the Drawing Away Stable. It's easy to say retire those old horses when it's not your money. It's almost impossible not to lose your shirt owning racehorses. If we made it tougher for people to play the claiming game, you may as well shut the sport down. Look at the horses racing at most of the tracks, outside of the few major ones, most of the horses are low level claimers. And many of those horses like to race.

I remember a few times in harness racing when a former class horse was at the top age limit, 14, and was racing in $5,000 claimers. People were telling the trainer that he should retire the horse and that it was a shame the former class horse was in so cheap. The trainer said, he'll have to retire at the end of the year anyway and why should we retire him, he loves to race and he's still winning.

Yes, Pandy...some of these old war-horses "love to race". But some are languishing in last place in $2,500 claiming races...and THAT'S the problem. A hard-knocking horse who has banked over a million dollars while running in over 50 races falls into Jacobson's hands...and finds itself finishing up the track in a 2,500 claimer in some remote corner of the country.

Both the owner and the trainer have no shame in cases such as these.

[Grits]

I get it, I totally understand. But it's not against the rules, and perhaps you should direct you anger at his owners, particularly the Drawing Away Stable. It's easy to say retire those old horses when it's not your money. It's almost impossible not to lose your shirt owning racehorses. If we made it tougher for people to play the claiming game, you may as well shut the sport down. Look at the horses racing at most of the tracks, outside of the few major ones, most of the horses are low level claimers. And many of those horses like to race.

Let's ask you to keep running.. well after your legs have to be injected to do so, Pandy. Yeah, that'll work. "Those horses like to race". :rolleyes:

This guy's personal tax returns likely show far greater earnings from his betting activity than from his training job. The real suckers are the folks in NY that keep bankrolling him--all to stand in a winners circle. Pitiful for the animal.

[Robert Fischer]

Guys, we have to take a good hard look in the mirror, at our game.

1. Our standard of Veterinarian screening is very poor.
- This is rather simple = horses shouldn't race unless they are healthy and sound. We must raise the standard. Whether a $100K claiming tag or a $4K claiming tag - the standards must remain high.
IF we can't have 4K claiming AND high standards of veterinarian screening, then we should not have 4k claiming.

2. Our 'incentives' do not protect the Owners&Trainers.
- Our current incentives encourage a game of musical chairs or "left holding the bag" with a horse.
You claim an unsound horse? You shouldn't be left holding the bag.

3. We must have a plan for unsound horses(Horse that fail our current vet-exams or our proposed improved vet-exams).
-Layoffs+re-evaluation, or Farm.
-Not acceptable to simply drop in class or circuit.

[thaskalos]

A good start would be to have the industry fight to gain access to those millions of dollars that the horseplayers throw in the garbage every year, by failing to cash their winning tickets. Some people say that the government takes that money, but I don't believe it. I have seen first hand that racetrack management has taken a very firm stance against stooping at the racetracks and the OTBs...and this makes me believe that the track retains at least a part of these ill-gotten gains. This money belongs to the HORSEPLAYERS...and, since the horseplayers cannot recover the loot...it should be rounded up and used for the retirement of these horses, where it stands to do some good.

[pandy]

Guys, we have to take a good hard look in the mirror, at our game.

1. Our standard of Veterinarian screening is very poor.
- This is rather simple = horses shouldn't race unless they are healthy and sound. We must raise the standard. Whether a $100K claiming tag or a $4K claiming tag - the standards must remain high.
IF we can't have 4K claiming AND high standards of veterinarian screening, then we should not have 4k claiming.

2. Our 'incentives' do not protect the Owners&Trainers.
- Our current incentives encourage a game of musical chairs or "left holding the bag" with a horse.
You claim an unsound horse? You shouldn't be left holding the bag.

3. We must have a plan for unsound horses(Horse that fail our current vet-exams or our proposed improved vet-exams).
-Layoffs+re-evaluation, or Farm.
-Not acceptable to simply drop in class or circuit.



Good ideas. The thing is, I'm more concerned with the people who are involved in outright criminal activity, which is the worse thing that's happening in both harness and thoroughbred racing today, illegal drugging of horses which is essentially race fixing.

I understand what you guys are saying about the older horses, but that's the claiming business. The only way to get rid of it is to stop claiming races,which would shut the tracks down. The vets get to look over the horses before each race. If the horse looks lame they can scratch it.

[pandy]

Let's ask you to keep running.. well after your legs have to be injected to do so, Pandy. Yeah, that'll work. "Those horses like to race". :rolleyes:

This guy's personal tax returns likely show far greater earnings from his betting activity than from his training job. The real suckers are the folks in NY that keep bankrolling him--all to stand in a winners circle. Pitiful for the animal.


Horses do have mandatory retirement ages. What does bother me is if I see an older horse that was once a good horse being raced even though it's finishing last. But if the horse is still competitive, that's part of the business of racing. If you're going to have claiming races, you're going to have older horses racing in them that have raced a lot of races.

[cj]

Good ideas. The thing is, I'm more concerned with the people who are involved in outright criminal activity, which is the worse thing that's happening in both harness and thoroughbred racing today, illegal drugging of horses which is essentially race fixing.

I understand what you guys are saying about the older horses, but that's the claiming business. The only way to get rid of it is to stop claiming races,which would shut the tracks down. The vets get to look over the horses before each race. If the horse looks lame they can scratch it.

Ending claiming races wouldn't shut the game down. You just class them differently. There is really no reason to be buying horses without a thorough inspection in 2015. You want to sell your horse, sell it privately.

Where is the proof that all this illegal drugging of horses is going on? Why are so few people caught? I'm not saying it isn't happening, but we just don't really know.

[pandy]

Ending claiming races wouldn't shut the game down. You just class them differently. There is really no reason to be buying horses without a thorough inspection in 2015. You want to sell your horse, sell it privately.

Where is the proof that all this illegal drugging of horses is going on? Why are so few people caught? I'm not saying it isn't happening, but we just don't really know.


Where there are always a few trainers that we know for sure are drugging the horses. And some of the trainers currently training have already been caught drugging horses with banned substances, yet they're still training, which doesn't make any sense. A positive for a banned substance is serious and the trainer should be either suspended indefinitely or for a long, long time. And owners who keep moving their horses from one drug trainer to another should be banned as well.

[Grits]

Horses do have mandatory retirement ages. What does bother me is if I see an older horse that was once a good horse being raced even though it's finishing last. But if the horse is still competitive, that's part of the business of racing. If you're going to have claiming races, you're going to have older horses racing in them that have raced a lot of races.

But so very many of them are sore, and by the time they've competed in the claiming ranks, going lower and lower, they are not competitive any longer.

You know what bothers me a lot, Pandy? If we're gonna continue to run claimers? And folks aren't gonna like this. But, I don't care about that part.

A question I've never seen asked, or answered.

Why do the larger, more well funded retirement farms, why do they only want to provide retirements for the big earners, the well known, the stakes horses? (Whether they're classic distance or sprinters, though more often, classic distance.) Why is this?

They don't want allowance horses, and Lord knows, they don't want a claimer. The sad thing is....as you say, they like to run, too. They don't know they're slower, and they try to run as fast as they are capable, each time out. This was their career, they just weren't as quick.

All those don't matter, they don't bring in donations and visitors to the farm. I'm a realist, and I know there is no home to save them all, surely not. However, now and then, it would be nice for the big rescue farms to understand .... they tried, too. So maybe, just maybe, they deserve a place to live out their retirement.

[pandy]

There were some nice stories recently, Michelle Yu and Laura Hilderbrand both bought horses to retire them, great stuff. You're probably right about the farms. I don't think any retired racehorse should ever be sold to the butchers.

Unfortunately, there's a lot of animal cruelty in the world. Look at this moron who killed that famous Lion. Lately Peta and other animal rights groups have made some important inroads in the handling of chickens, with major restaurant chains refusing to buy chicken from certain large chicken factories who cage them. But there's a lot to be done. Some of the big pork farms mistreat the pigs horribly.

To me it's a sin and a disgrace the way we treat livestock in this country and throughout the world. These animals provide important nutrition for us, they should be treated like royalty while they're still alive.

Just today they showed how some companies mistreat alligators, just to make a stupid hand bag for women.

[Chaka26]

Dave has some not so,happy investors over a horse who had been running in 80 & 100k claimers got dropped into a 12,500 and got claimed away
Ouch
Horse won by 5 lengths but major hit to investors who probably claimed for closer to the upper level claim amounts

[Rise Over Run]

Dave has some not so,happy investors over a horse who had been running in 80 & 100k claimers got dropped into a 12,500 and got claimed away
Ouch
Horse won by 5 lengths but major hit to investors who probably claimed for closer to the upper level claim amounts

Great points, except for the fact that they claimed Wealth To Me for only $20k nearly a full year prior (August 11, 2014). :bang: :bang:

I'm not going to add up the purses he won for them (13 - 3 - 3 - 5), but I imaging they did ok. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I'm not a DJ defender, but if you're going to take shots at him, they should at least be credible.

[cj]

Great points, except for the fact that they claimed Wealth To Me for only $20k nearly a full year prior (August 11, 2014). :bang: :bang:

I'm not going to add up the purses he won for them (13 - 3 - 3 - 5), but I imaging they did ok. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I'm not a DJ defender, but if you're going to take shots at him, they should at least be credible.

Not to mention the owner, Drawing Away Stable, and Jacobson, were parting ways. This may have been the last horse they had together.

[Rise Over Run]

Dave has some not so,happy investors over a horse who had been running in 80 & 100k claimers got dropped into a 12,500 and got claimed away
Ouch
Horse won by 5 lengths but major hit to investors who probably claimed for closer to the upper level claim amounts

Actually, I will add up the purses this horse won for them just to prove how ridiculous your post is.

13 races for Drawing Away Stables and DJ; total purses $176,200. I can't imagine how furious the investors must be over this. :lol: :lol:

The smallest purse won was $5,500 and the largest was $39,000 collected in a 3 horse field. :bang: :bang:

Oh yeah, and they got $12,500 back when they "lost" the horse last week. I'm sure DAS is really pissed off at DJ over this one..... :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Chaka26]

Actually, I will add up the purses this horse won for them just to prove how ridiculous your post is.

13 races for Drawing Away Stables and DJ; total purses $176,200. I can't imagine how furious the investors must be over this. :lol: :lol:

The smallest purse won was $5,500 and the largest was $39,000 collected in a 3 horse field. :bang: :bang:

Oh yeah, and they got $12,500 back when they "lost" the horse last week. I'm sure DAS is really pissed off at DJ over this one..... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Not taking shots just stating facts

Have you ever invested with DAS? Im guessing no because,you would realize the investors See a drop in bucket from the purses in lieu of no carrying expenses
After jock and trainer bonuses DJ takes another 65% of the purse
So those wins generally carry. A 10% jock and 10%'trainer correct?

How much is left now?

Plus theres a 15% upfront premium over the investment
Numbers arent so rosy now are they?

Then to have a horse running for months at high level,dropped to lowest level you would be pissed too


As for the FACT if investors are pissed or not that info came direct from DAS investors ARE demanding to reclaim the horse whether you believe it or not

I'm not gonna post their email but if you dont believe me why dont you give Ed Borden a call and hear the truth for,yourself

[Chaka26]

Heres more facts for you we had a 8 race run with DJ with a win 3 2nds 2 3rds and 2 5ths so an in the money of 75% and came away with a loss as one horse was claimed away for half its claiming price erasing our profit

[Rise Over Run]

Not taking shots just stating facts

Have you ever invested with DAS? Im guessing no because,you would realize the investors See a drop in bucket from the purses in lieu of no carrying expenses


People who invest in these "no expense partnerships" should not expect to get anything monetarily out of the game. If they do, it's a complete bonus. They should be in it solely for the horse racing ownership experience, with the attitude that owning a horse and possibly getting into the winners circle is priceless.

It sounds to me like WTM was a no expense partnership, so the reality is that DJ is taking all the risk and can place the horse wherever he wants to per the terms of the partnership agreement. Don't like it? Then own a horse outright as an individual or partnership and take on all the risks.

[Rise Over Run]

Heres more facts for you we had a 8 race run with DJ with a win 3 2nds 2 3rds and 2 5ths so an in the money of 75% and came away with a loss as one horse was claimed away for half its claiming price erasing our profit
You sold your soul when you signed up for the "no expense partnership". Obviously, you didn't know what you were getting into.

[Rise Over Run]

As for the FACT if investors are pissed or not that info came direct from DAS investors ARE demanding to reclaim the horse whether you believe it or not
Well this pretty much sums it all up. So called knowledgeable horsepeople are demanding to reclaim a horse that DJ dumped for $12.5k. Seriously, move on and take the $12.5k, plus the purse winnings, claim a decent horse for $20-40k and make some money this fall at Parx. :lol: :lol:

[Chaka26]

You sold your soul when you signed up for the "no expense partnership". Obviously, you didn't know what you were getting into.
I did get in for the immediate action of claiming race ready horses and limited downside...which slowly testing the waters should come across as logical approach for,someone new to the game but im sure you will find a way to twist it differently.
What wasnt expected is DJ never running a horse back at the same level after finishing a close second.or third or he Win a race jumps up a level or two then Finishes fifth at new level and then drops 3 levels. Why not drop,back to where he was close second?
we also never got to follow,a,horse for long as his entries were claimed regularly

Our entries were almost always pt favs due to trainer name so never worth betting any of them either.
I tried that route and found it wasnt the experience i was looking for-so i got out a year ago

As for taking more risks and getting a different syndicate. I did,exactly that
one with Eclipse -originally a yearlingby Tizway -and a couple with another stable ,one which will be trained by motion
All are 2 yo so still waiting to run -hopefully by fall and hopefully they stay healthy and will be competitive at whatever level they wind up

[pandy]

Obviously this method of ownership is not for everyone. I'd be interested to know how well Jacobson's owners have done compared to other people who've been in the claiming game for some time. It's a risky business, to say the least.

[Ruffian1]

Actually, I will add up the purses this horse won for them just to prove how ridiculous your post is.

13 races for Drawing Away Stables and DJ; total purses $176,200. I can't imagine how furious the investors must be over this. :lol: :lol:

The smallest purse won was $5,500 and the largest was $39,000 collected in a 3 horse field. :bang: :bang:

Oh yeah, and they got $12,500 back when they "lost" the horse last week. I'm sure DAS is really pissed off at DJ over this one..... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Seems to me that THIS was the ridiculous post.

Not only rude, arrogant and condescending, but most importantly, WRONG.

So instead of saying sorry or having an intelligent discussion with a guy that is new to the business and wants to learn, you tell the guy that you wrongfully laughed at that he sold his soul and needs to make better choices if he doesn't like the outcome.

I guess he needs to listen to those that might actually have something meaningful and, oh yeah, correct, to say.