Should A Spot Be Held In The Gate?

[OntheRail]

OK with the new rules in effect for the Derby... it was not so bad but for one thing. Should the powers that be, hold one or two spot for a Filly. The owner would have to declare one week before the colts draw-in their intention to Run for the Roses. That would fix the points system... what say you?

[CincyHorseplayer]

OK with the new rules in effect for the Derby... it was not so bad but for one thing. Should the powers that be, hold one or two spot for a Filly. The owner would have to declare one week before the colts draw-in their intention to Run for the Roses. That would fix the points system... what say you?

They could just apply points to some of the filly prep races to garner an entry if the owners are ambitious enough to do so.

[Phantombridgejumpe]

two wildcard spots.

These one or two spots would be picked by a group of 5 'experts'.

If they think a filly or two is worthy problem solved. If they think a horse that didn't earn many points is better - okay.

[pondman]

No

Run your fillies against the boys.

[andtheyreoff]

No. I agree with previous posters; if a filly is good enough to be a legitimate in the Derby, run her against the boys beforehand.

And, FWIW, both filly winners in recent times ran against males beforehand- Genuine Risk was third in the 1980 Wood Memorial, and Winning Colors won the 1988 Santa Anita Derby. Both, as such, would've qualified for the Derby under the point system.

[Some_One]

two wildcard spots.

These one or two spots would be picked by a group of 5 'experts'.

If they think a filly or two is worthy problem solved. If they think a horse that didn't earn many points is better - okay.

What would stop the BC Juvie winner from just training up to the Derby then?

[iceknight]

OK with the new rules in effect for the Derby... it was not so bad but for one thing. Should the powers that be, hold one or two spot for a Filly. The owner would have to declare one week before the colts draw-in their intention to Run for the Roses. That would fix the points system... what say you? No. Run the fillies with the boys right from MSW or one after.. It is the 21st century and equal rights for women means they compete equally.

Glad to see other posters echo this sentiment too :) Besides, how did dreaming of julia really do in the Oaks? princess of sylmar got jostled badly too at the same start

[CincyHorseplayer]

Yep.

Singled minded separation of sexes by the racing industry.

Single minded attitude by fans on how it should be earned.

This is why it will never happen.

So for future reference,shut that hole in your face and recognize!:cool:

[depalma113]

No. I agree with previous posters; if a filly is good enough to be a legitimate in the Derby, run her against the boys beforehand.

And, FWIW, both filly winners in recent times ran against males beforehand- Genuine Risk was third in the 1980 Wood Memorial, and Winning Colors won the 1988 Santa Anita Derby. Both, as such, would've qualified for the Derby under the point system.

Eight Belles ran second and she was better than 18 other colts on Derby Day. The exclusion of fillies from the Derby is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Eight Belles ran second and she was better than 18 other colts on Derby Day. The exclusion of fillies from the Derby is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Speaking of that girl,her mile workouts beforehand made my mind up about who could at least finish 2nd.That girl was all heart.I couldn't cash those tickets til the following week.

[Robert Fischer]

yes, they should hold the 1-post in case a filly wants to enter. If no filly is entered, Lukas may enter an extra horse.

Seriously, fillys are open to enter the 3yo derby point prep races should the Derby be on their radar.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Eight Belles ran second and she was better than 18 other colts on Derby Day. The exclusion of fillies from the Derby is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Yes, a clear civil-rights violation.

[raybo]

Fillies are not excluded from the Derby, they have to earn their way in just like the boys. So, knowing the point system, why would the owner/trainer of a potential Derby class filly not attempt to earn the points needed?

[raybo]

Yes, a clear civil-rights violation.

I hope you meant this as a joke.

[Skanoochies]

Fillies are not excluded from the Derby, they have to earn their way in just like the boys. So, knowing the point system, why would the owner/trainer of a potential Derby class filly not attempt to earn the points needed?
....Should they carry the same weight as the boys also? If they are going to change the old rules, change them all. :)

[iceknight]

....Should they carry the same weight as the boys also? If they are going to change the old rules, change them all. :) One step at a time.. but why not?

[Tom]

What would stop the BC Juvie winner from just training up to the Derby then?

Close what Uncle Mo did.
He had more vets than starts.
Not good.:rolleyes:

[Tom]

....Should they carry the same weight as the boys also? If they are going to change the old rules, change them all. :)

Good point.......

[raybo]

....Should they carry the same weight as the boys also? If they are going to change the old rules, change them all. :)

Of course they should, absolutely.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I hope you meant this as a joke.

Equine gender discrimination is no laughing matter.

[raybo]

Equine gender discrimination is no laughing matter.

Females have their own races, as males do. If a female is entered in an open gendered race, why should they have any special treatment, their owners/trainers chose to run in that company, nobody forced them into it, did they? If the rule is points in qualifying races, then that's the rule, no exceptions, male or female. If the rule was still money then that would be the rule, no exceptions, should a female have gotten in the Derby simply because she won all her races, against females, but failed to make enough money? Of course not, just like if a male had won all his races but failed to make enough money. The qualifying races and points are a requirement for a Derby entry, that's the rule, period. Are you saying that a female horse should not have to run any of the preps, or if it did, and got the points needed, then it should get a break on weight in the Derby? Why? She's already proved she doesn't need it, in the preps and the points she earned.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Females have their own races, as males do. If a female is entered in an open gendered race, why should they have any special treatment, their owners/trainers chose to run in that company, nobody forced them into it, did they? If the rule is points in qualifying races, then that's the rule, no exceptions, male or female. If the rule was still money then that would be the rule, no exceptions, should a female have gotten in the Derby simply because she won all her races, against females, but failed to make enough money? Of course not, just like if a male had won all his races but failed to make enough money. The qualifying races and points are a requirement for a Derby entry, that's the rule, period. Are you saying that a female horse should not have to run any of the preps, or if it did, and got the points needed, then it should get a break on weight in the Derby? Why? She's already proved she doesn't need it, in the preps and the points she earned.

I was joking with you. Agree with everything you said here.

[Tom]

Again, is the goal to enforce rules of fill competitive, entertaining races?
I'll pass on strict rules and opt to allow for the best field available that year.

[raybo]

Again, is the goal to enforce rules of fill competitive, entertaining races?
I'll pass on strict rules and opt to allow for the best field available that year.

We'd all do things differently if we could Tom, but that isn't the case, so we gotta go by what we have to go by. Scream at the top of your lungs if you want, but that isn't likely to change a thing.

And, what would be a competitive and entertaining race for you might not be for anyone else.

[iceknight]

I hope you meant this as a joke.pretty sure he is being sarcastic! 5-1

[OntheRail]

Fillies are not excluded from the Derby, they have to earn their way in just like the boys. So, knowing the point system, why would the owner/trainer of a potential Derby class filly not attempt to earn the points needed?

The RULZ are not cast in some unchangeable substance... and they are NEW THIS YEAR. And are subject to revision. Some Fillies may prove their class a bit late for any "Points Race" or maybe to far to ship to it. With the points system this year they had to reach deep in the bottom of the hey bag to fill the gate. I'm sure had a spot been held... we'd of had a Filly in the Derby.

[raybo]

The RULZ are not cast in some unchangeable substance... and they are NEW THIS YEAR. And are subject to revision. Some Fillies may prove their class a bit late for any "Points Race" or maybe to far to ship to it. With the points system this year they had to reach deep in the bottom of the hey bag to fill the gate. I'm sure had a spot been held... we'd of had a Filly in the Derby.

That could also be true for males, why is it that just the females can't prove their class earlier, or it's not too far to ship for a male? Females run as 2 yos also don't they? If they don't show Derby potential before males then maybe they don't deserve to be in the Derby at all. But, if they show potential later, like some males do, they still have to qualify for the Derby, male or female. Are you saying females are inferior to males, early? If so, then maybe they aren't ready for the Derby. Personally I don't think running 3 yos through all the physical, and otherwise, stresses that is required before, and during, the TC is healthy for any horse, male or female. But, what I think isn't going to change a thing. We have what we have, if it changes in the future then it changes, but everyone knew before this one what was required, no excuses, please!

[Striker]

One of the things that I would say that no trainer is going to mess around with is even flirting with the idea of racing in the KD if a filly isn't good enough to be there. It's not like there has been any abuse of entering fillies in the derby before. Not 1 filly raced in the derby from 2000 until 8 Belles ran in 2008. About 40 fillies have run in the history of the derby and most of them didn't embarass themselves. Serena's Song(16th) and Althea and Three Ring both who ran 19th are the only ones that come to mind that ran poorly. It would appear that most fillies that raced in the derby deserved to be there, and didn't need to pass the CDI points test to prove they belonged.

[Tom]

Well, at least the new point system kept out out that cheap speed that ruins
the race.

[raybo]

Well, at least the new point system kept out out that cheap speed that ruins
the race.

Right, like Palice Malice? :bang:

[Tom]

Right :rolleyes:

[depalma113]

The qualifying races and points are a requirement for a Derby entry, that's the rule, period.

No they are not. The rules are there in case more than 20 enter.

[Phantombridgejumpe]

Potentially nothing.

Would the BC winner have had enough points this year?

I suppose the risk of not being selected by the experts.

[raybo]

No they are not. The rules are there in case more than 20 enter.

What? You must have points from the preps and the point totals must be in the top 20 in order to make the field.

[iceknight]

What? You must have points from the preps and the point totals must be in the top 20 in order to make the field. I think his interpretation (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1438716&postcount=32) (which is right).. is that IF only 20 horses are nominated, then all 20 will get to enter the entry box without having a need to go through qualifying races. Of course, in reality, we know that more than 20 will be nominated.. so the qualifying and preps are always relevant....


If the number of nominees exceeds the number of available starting positions and also-eligible positions set by CDI (the "Number of Starting and AE Positions") at the Closing, these conditions shall be applied to determine which nominees will be allowed to start and which nominees will be designated as also-eligible to start. In the event that more than the Number of Starting and AE Positions pass through the entry box at the Closing, the starters and also-eligible horses shall be determined at the Closing from Original Nominees first, then Supplemental Nominees if starting and/or also-eligible positions are still available, with preference given to those horses that have accumulated the most points pursuant to the Road to the Kentucky Derby Point System. For purposes of this preference, the Road to the Kentucky Derby Point System shall mean the point values assigned to the first four finishing positions in each race comprising the Road to the Kentucky Derby as published by Churchill Downs Incorporated.
Condition Book (PDF - many pages! (http://www.churchilldowns.com/sites/churchilldowns.com/files/Spring%20Book%20One.pdf)

[raybo]

I think his interpretation (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1438716&postcount=32) (which is right).. is that IF only 20 horses are nominated, then all 20 will get to enter the entry box without having a need to go through qualifying races. Of course, in reality, we know that more than 20 will be nominated.. so the qualifying and preps are always relevant....


If the number of nominees exceeds the number of available starting positions and also-eligible positions set by CDI (the "Number of Starting and AE Positions") at the Closing, these conditions shall be applied to determine which nominees will be allowed to start and which nominees will be designated as also-eligible to start. In the event that more than the Number of Starting and AE Positions pass through the entry box at the Closing, the starters and also-eligible horses shall be determined at the Closing from Original Nominees first, then Supplemental Nominees if starting and/or also-eligible positions are still available, with preference given to those horses that have accumulated the most points pursuant to the Road to the Kentucky Derby Point System. For purposes of this preference, the Road to the Kentucky Derby Point System shall mean the point values assigned to the first four finishing positions in each race comprising the Road to the Kentucky Derby as published by Churchill Downs Incorporated.
Condition Book (PDF - many pages! (http://www.churchilldowns.com/sites/churchilldowns.com/files/Spring%20Book%20One.pdf)

Well sure! If there is ever a year in which we have fewer than 20 nominations, that is true. Does anyone see, in the near future, Derby with nominations less than 21? I don't see that happening, so it comes down to points earned in the prep races.

[Striker]

Does anyone see, in the near future, Derby with nominations less than 21? I don't see that happening, so it comes down to points earned in the prep races.
The nominations will never probably be below 350 much less 20. The competition to get that last spot was quite pathetic as Fear the Kitten was just about in with 6 points.

[raybo]

The nominations will never probably be below 350 much less 20. The competition to get that last spot was quite pathetic as Fear the Kitten was just about in with 6 points.

I think you're right. There probably ought to be a few more eligible preps for the Derby, so more of the horses have a chance to garner more points.

[Striker]

I think you're right. There probably ought to be a few more eligible preps for the Derby, so more of the horses have a chance to garner more points.
I am one of the biggest people against this points system, but one of the positives that came from it were the fields in most of those preps increased and provided some nice betting opportunities for the horseplayers. Examples-

The Risen Star averaged 11.50 starters in 2009 through 2012. This year, there were 12.

The Fountain of Youth averaged 8.75 starters during the same time period and drew nine starters this year.

The Gotham Stakes drew 9.75 on average the past four years and had 11 this year.

The Tampa Bay Derby averaged 9.25 starters between 2009 and 2012, and it had nine this year.

The San Felipe Stakes, the most lightly populated of the first five races, had 8.25 starters per year during the prior four years. Eight ran this year.

The Rebel Stakes averaged 9.25 and drew 11 starters this year.

The Spiral, formerly the Lane's End, had 12 starters this year, the maximum, and one more than it averaged the previous four years.

The Sunland Derby moved in the opposite direction with nine starters this year, one less than its prior four-year average.

The Florida Derby, surprisingly, only averageed 8.5 starters per year from 2009 to 2012. This year it had 10.

Starters in the Louisiana Derby, rose from an average of 11.75 to 14 starters this year.

The Wood Memorial made a similar move, growing from an average of 7.75 to 10 starters.

The Santa Anita Derby stayed pretty much in place. Eight ran this year after an average 8.75 the previous four.

The Toyota Blue Grass maxed out with 14 starters compared to an average 11.25 in the previous four years.

And the Arkansas Derby turned out much like the Santa Anita Derby. It had 10 starters last Saturday compared to a four-year average of 10.75 the previous four years.

[iceknight]

I am one of the biggest people against this points system, but one of the positives that came from it were the fields in most of those preps increased and provided some nice betting opportunities for the horseplayers. Examples- Very nice analysis! Thank you :)

[depalma113]

Well sure! If there is ever a year in which we have fewer than 20 nominations, that is true. Does anyone see, in the near future, Derby with nominations less than 21? I don't see that happening, so it comes down to points earned in the prep races.


If 21 horses are entered and one is a filly, she will be the AE. If there is a scratch, she gets in. If 20 horses are entered and 19 have points, it goes to graded stakes earnings for the 20th horse. If the filly is the highest graded stakes earner, she gets in.

[raybo]

If 21 horses are entered and one is a filly, she will be the AE. If there is a scratch, she gets in.

Where is that written, I must have missed it.