why the game doesn't grow handle

[acorn54]

Shady trainers, rampant drugs making past performances useless, high takeout, run down tracks, odds changing during race, Computer whales killing and changing proces at the last second screwing over the smaller bettors who make up a lot of the crowd, young TC horses retiring after Belmont or BC with "injuries" so the owners can cash big checks on them, $3 entrance fees, $5 parking, $4 programs, $9 beers, $7 hot dogs,
Give me a break, no ones down a thing and the game is done. Casinos rule now



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBKeCKm2qiY

[Dave Schwartz]

If only the horsemen and track owners could be saved from themselves...

That was a great interview, BTW.

[thaskalos]

Jeff was a lot more reserved than I would have been... :)

[Some_One]

I'm going to have to disagree with many of the points. It comes down to culture I think, and that Americans just find other forms of wagering more appealing to them. I say this based on my visit to Sha Tin and Happy Valley last week, and I'll use Happy Valley more specifically.

First of the HKJC has otb's everywhere, very accessible to place a bet without visiting the track (I would argue it's difficult in most of the US to do so). HKJC also has internet account wagering

What we consider PP's don't exist in HK, it's more Euro style summary form, no pace ratings and so on are easily available. But it appears their PP's are printed in the newspapers because for 1-2 days leading up to raceday, you saw people on the streets and trains looking over the upcoming races. You don't see that in the US

Takeout- As far as I know, they are similar, but HK does have a 10% rebate for losing tickets on tickets 1500 or higher.

Last minute changes- In HK, they have a term, the brown lamp, that's when a horses odds crash 50% or more and is highlighted in brown on the toteboard, it happens in the last minutes as the syndicate and illegal bookie money (offshore bookies laying off bets to get the rebate) comes in. I believe in my two visits it happened 6 times, 3 won, but Ive never seen or heard anyone complain

Horses retiring early - Not a HK problem as there is no breeding industry and every horse is usually gelded, but the US problem is just big in Australia with the recent retirement of All Too Hard. There needs to be more incentive to race and instead of breed, purses for G1's need to be a million minimum IMO

Costs - It costs 10 HKD to enter a track, if you take the trains to the track, it'll probably cost you about 30 HKD roundtrip. At HV, their big thing is the beer gardens on the apron, and before the rains came, it was packed, they also had various wine tastings setup in part of their France promotion and my partner and I took in 3 glasses each at ~70 HKD each and were more then happy to pay that too and we weren't the only ones for sure, even after the rains came.

As to Casinos ruling, Macau is across the bay (IMO it's Vegas without the fun of Vegas, very boring), but HK racing handle has been increasing the last couple of years, topping over 10 US$ Mill each race.

The game in the US needs to be more accessible, and more visible (aside from 2 minutes in May and 2 minutes in November), if someone gets involved, they should be able to easily find the information and the outlets they need to place a wager. The racetrack also needs to be an event, the boutique meet model has proven to be best, you can't expect a 20 or 30 something to go to the track everyday, but once a week is doable (so if it was me, with the soon to be vacant racedays that HOL currently has, should not be reassigned)

[pondman]

I'm more in fear of a consumer group than the complaints aired. Trying to remove uncertainty won't help this game. It will only decrease field sizes and payouts.

[iceknight]

I'm going to have to disagree with many of the points. It comes down to culture I think, and that Americans just find other forms of wagering more appealing to them. I say this based on my visit to Sha Tin and Happy Valley last week, and I'll use Happy Valley more specifically.


The game in the US needs to be more accessible, and more visible (aside from 2 minutes in May and 2 minutes in November), if someone gets involved, they should be able to easily find the information and the outlets they need to place a wager. The racetrack also needs to be an event, the boutique meet model has proven to be best, you can't expect a 20 or 30 something to go to the track everyday, but once a week is doable (so if it was me, with the soon to be vacant racedays that HOL currently has, should not be reassigned) Not sure you mean in which manner, but the population density of Hong Kong island is 16390 /sq km while in the US (just for urban areas) it varies between 313 to 2705 /sq km.

That in itself make a huge huge difference in getting people to go to the track or having more otbs near them etc..


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_urban_areas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Island

[lamboguy]

even with handles dropping the last few years, Twinspires has gone up in handle every year. there have been a few new states that now allow advanced deposit wagering. i know that this year Illinois is lost. but there are about 20 states that don't have account wagering now. 2 of those states will probably never get it, Utah and Hawaii. but the rest are still game. that is where the growth in handle could come from going forward. today racing is becoming a stay at home game with people sitting behind their screens.

[Stillriledup]

Shady trainers, rampant drugs making past performances useless, high takeout, run down tracks, odds changing during race, Computer whales killing and changing proces at the last second screwing over the smaller bettors who make up a lot of the crowd, young TC horses retiring after Belmont or BC with "injuries" so the owners can cash big checks on them, $3 entrance fees, $5 parking, $4 programs, $9 beers, $7 hot dogs,
Give me a break, no ones down a thing and the game is done. Casinos rule now



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBKeCKm2qiY

I dont understand how 'computer whales' are screwing over smaller bettors. Do you mean that they're just outhandicapping the smaller bettors and beating them fair and square? Not sure that gets filed under the 'screwing' part.

I do agree with most of the other stuff you said. Good points.

[wiffleball whizz]

Shady trainers, rampant drugs making past performances useless, high takeout, run down tracks, odds changing during race, Computer whales killing and changing proces at the last second screwing over the smaller bettors who make up a lot of the crowd, young TC horses retiring after Belmont or BC with "injuries" so the owners can cash big checks on them, $3 entrance fees, $5 parking, $4 programs, $9 beers, $7 hot dogs,
Give me a break, no ones down a thing and the game is done. Casinos rule now



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBKeCKm2qiY

U nailed it.....admission takeout program cost beers and everything else is all you gotta look at....

Anybody that thinks otherwise is sadly mistaken....

You walk in casino with 200 u got all your drinks and all overhead paid for before u make your first bet

You walk in the track with 200 after admission it's 196
After you buy a program it's now 190....4 beers it's now 165 a hot dog it's 160 parking 157 your first $20 bet your bankroll has now evaporated to $137!!!!!! That's why people don't go to the tracks anymore

You people that sit home on your computer and get your monster rebates don't see this.....the game is dead as a doornail and besides Saratoga delmar (I think oaklawn has good attendence) and a couple other tracks it's a done deal

Go look at empty track grandstands and let me know how any track would ever try and see if racing can make a comeback....


Racetracks give u zero and casinos roll out the red carpet for you

Example I lose 2000 at otb I get nothing in the mail 2 weeks later

I lose 2000 playing video poker/slots in 2 weeks if getting free $25 in slot play free buffet daily free parking free dining $30 dining credits and then 2 free nights every week in Atlantic city during the summer...... Not to mention free shows and everything else.....

After reading this why would you start gambling on horse racing? Dead game

[acorn54]

good points whiffleball, i didn't look at it that way because i've never been to a casino.

[VeryOldMan]

Go look at empty track grandstands and let me know how any track would ever try and see if racing can make a comeback....[snip]


After reading this why would you start gambling on horse racing? Dead game

Yeah - I found this game 40 years ago and was hooked, but in this instant gratification age with so many options available for legal and illegal gambling, why would someone take up this particular gambling habit with so many options available?

I love this sport but it sure seems like a balloon with a slow leak.

[wiffleball whizz]

good points whiffleball, i didn't look at it that way because i've never been to a casino.

Good for you!!!! Casinos will do whatever they can to draw u in....make u feel like u are valuable......tracks look at you like your a hindrance not a valuable customer.....

Track handle will never increase......keeneland has done everything they can and cut down cost of base wagers that helps

Pick 6s are sometimg u have to look at for proof....Belmont pick 6 carryovers ate getting lower and lower there is no new blood in pick 6s....

Handle is down all over the place....sometimes they go up a little but the long term outlook for horse racing handle is a dead issue...

No new blood is the main reason and people that do bet horses are literary a dying breed....my father who for 27 years of my life bet horses all the time....now aside from triple crown races and breeders cup he stopped cold turkey he's tired of hitting numbers getting robbed odds changing and no value....he still gambles but he plays cards now exclusively I'm sure hes not the only one that has made this transition

All of his friends go to otb 5 nights a weeks there 65...mathematically speaking they won't be around no more then 30 years and I'm sure there not the only group that's in the same age demographic

In laymens terms people that bet horses now are dying and giving up the habit and nobody is picking up the habit.....do the math

[pondman]

After reading this why would you start gambling on horse racing? Dead game

When you walk into a casino, you are walking into a den of snakes that have a vacuum hose taped to your wallet. Unless you run by the pits and slots and head towards sports or horses, you will lose. The games all have expected negative returns.

[davew]

I don't know of any positive expectation bets at the casinos.. unless you count all the cards at a blackjack table and play a few hands every 5 shuffles.

There are not many at the track either, but it is fun trying to find them.

[Stillriledup]

U nailed it.....admission takeout program cost beers and everything else is all you gotta look at....

Anybody that thinks otherwise is sadly mistaken....

You walk in casino with 200 u got all your drinks and all overhead paid for before u make your first bet

You walk in the track with 200 after admission it's 196
After you buy a program it's now 190....4 beers it's now 165 a hot dog it's 160 parking 157 your first $20 bet your bankroll has now evaporated to $137!!!!!! That's why people don't go to the tracks anymore

You people that sit home on your computer and get your monster rebates don't see this.....the game is dead as a doornail and besides Saratoga delmar (I think oaklawn has good attendence) and a couple other tracks it's a done deal

Go look at empty track grandstands and let me know how any track would ever try and see if racing can make a comeback....


Racetracks give u zero and casinos roll out the red carpet for you

Example I lose 2000 at otb I get nothing in the mail 2 weeks later

I lose 2000 playing video poker/slots in 2 weeks if getting free $25 in slot play free buffet daily free parking free dining $30 dining credits and then 2 free nights every week in Atlantic city during the summer...... Not to mention free shows and everything else.....

After reading this why would you start gambling on horse racing? Dead game


WHIZZ SAID "Racetracks give u zero and casinos roll out the red carpet for you"

This, in a nutshell, is the biggest problem the racing industry seems to have.

[Dave Schwartz]

I'm going to have to disagree with many of the points.

Someone,

I am not sure which points you disagree with but I think I will disagree with your disagreement. LOL

You must remember that HK is a different world. (No pun.) The racing is an enclosed system, with much more integrity than US racing. Not sure how much more but when you have two tracks and (basically) no shippers it is much easier to control drugs, etc.

The late odds changes - if we had that brown light it would do no good as the gate is already open when those odds change. Different than HK (obviously).

The track operations in HK (and Japan as well) are VERY customer conscious. The problem here is that the tracks here serve the horsemen first, second, and third. The customer is (at best) lucky to get into the superfecta (i.e. rank 4th). He is just sucker who sends his money in. It is the rare track that is willing to even get the customer "into the money" in terms of importance, when he should actually be the top priority.

In my actual experience, when I ask a horsemen who the "customer" in the game is, the response is usually "The People Who Buy Race Horses." That is just nuts but it is what they believe.

My contention is that track management in HK and Japan both understand who the customer is and are rewarded accordingly.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[wiffleball whizz]

And nothing for nothing how can anybody go to a track for the first time pick up a program or racing form and understand a f#%^*\#= thing they are reading....if anybody here picked up a Chinese newspaper how long would u look at it before u put it down and said why am I wasting my time.....it's no different then putting a form in front of somebody for the first time.....

Now look at a 23 year old kid who plays poker for the first time....he may not know kings beat jacks but in a hour he will know what ranking are and 3 days later figure out some basic strategy.....a week later get basic knowledge and sees what's winning......in a month reading simple books now seeing he can win playing this game......6 months later now wants to play cards 4 days a week Abd thinks he is the best player in world....

This 23 year old kid goes to track first time pays $4 to get in $5 for a racing form which he has no clue how to read.....he will ask a guy sitting 5 feet away how to read it he will tell the kid to beat it....the kid bets a race lose $20 sees 24 minutes to posts waits for rave loses $20 sees 24 minutes to post and says screw this and walks out

The 23 year old kid sits at a poker table all 9 players know he is a fish and they all make him feel welcome and comfortable at a table and the 23 year old likes it and feels comfortable

The 23 year old kid gets run out of the door by the "compitition" at racetrack....does that make sense how no new kids bet racing?

Ive worked at several top tier casinos and have seen 100s of kids come in to play cards for first time and SO MANY come back and become steady regulars,...

There are reasons why poker has attracted "increased there handle" over past 10 years and racetracks are "decreasing their handle"

[wiffleball whizz]

WHIZZ SAID "Racetracks give u zero and casinos roll out the red carpet for you"

This, in a nutshell, is the biggest problem the racing industry seems to have.

SRU I work in prob the nicest casino in county and people that go there and other casino to be fair and they feel like rock stars....

They think the 2 free rooms the $40 in free slot play are the greatest things in the world....they can get there brains beat in but they will leave happy knowing the casino really loves them and values them...

Nothing more I find funny then the players that get buried for 1200 a week and walk around with the "casino wardrobe" attire with the casino name hats windbreakers and what not....

Then the players that play a lot and see they are close to becoming a "diamond" member or "black card" member make it there sole mission in life to get to that level....

Past weekend a player who I'm friendly with says robert do you gamble or play I say yes I bet horses....hell say "yeah I used to go to the track all the time but I hate the long time between races and cheating"

It's sad but if you walk into Walmart and ask random people about horse racing u will get these responses:
Cheating
The Barbaro race
Horses dying
Drugs
Too complicated

Now these people 4 days later may go spend 500 at the casino but that 500 will never see the inside of a racetrack.....these are reasons racing handle will never see increases again

[Stillriledup]

SRU I work in prob the nicest casino in county and people that go there and other casino to be fair and they feel like rock stars....

They think the 2 free rooms the $40 in free slot play are the greatest things in the world....they can get there brains beat in but they will leave happy knowing the casino really loves them and values them...

Nothing more I find funny then the players that get buried for 1200 a week and walk around with the "casino wardrobe" attire with the casino name hats windbreakers and what not....

Then the players that play a lot and see they are close to becoming a "diamond" member or "black card" member make it there sole mission in life to get to that level....

Past weekend a player who I'm friendly with says robert do you gamble or play I say yes I bet horses....hell say "yeah I used to go to the track all the time but I hate the long time between races and cheating"

It's sad but if you walk into Walmart and ask random people about horse racing u will get these responses:
Cheating
The Barbaro race
Horses dying
Drugs
Too complicated

Now these people 4 days later may go spend 500 at the casino but that 500 will never see the inside of a racetrack.....these are reasons racing handle will never see increases again

its funny how people would say "too complicated"...what's complicated about it, doesnt the track have a 'quick pick' button?

Lotteries take 50% or more, tracks take 20% yet people would much rather play the lottery. Go figure.

[wiffleball whizz]

its funny how people would say "too complicated"...what's complicated about it, doesnt the track have a 'quick pick' button?

Lotteries take 50% or more, tracks take 20% yet people would much rather play the lottery. Go figure.

Too many numbers and intimidating things in a program and at a track to gain more customers....it's a fight that can't be won

[Phantombridgejumpe]

Just a couple months ago there was a $3M winner and about an $8M pot that was raised on a fairly new type of bet.

Of course that was ripped as a dumb bet by many on the board, but the customer wanted it. Would it kill NBC to put a one hour show on once a week in the summer with 3 races from 2 or 3 different tracks? Call the bet the BIG 3 and make it available to all tracks. Give those in attendance at the 3 tracks 5% takeout on the big 3 and everyone else gets 10%.

How about 10% takeout for Place Bets on Tuesdays? How about the super pick 10, everyone in attendance gets a random ticket with 10 numbers, if you win all 10 you win $100K and that prize grows $1 for every person in attendance at the track until it is hit.

If the 25 minutes is an issue make it 15-20, 10 races in 3 hours.

[wiffleball whizz]

Just a couple months ago there was a $3M winner and about an $8M pot that was raised on a fairly new type of bet.

Of course that was ripped as a dumb bet by many on the board, but the customer wanted it. Would it kill NBC to put a one hour show on once a week in the summer with 3 races from 2 or 3 different tracks? Call the bet the BIG 3 and make it available to all tracks. Give those in attendance at the 3 tracks 5% takeout on the big 3 and everyone else gets 10%.

How about 10% takeout for Place Bets on Tuesdays? How about the super pick 10, everyone in attendance gets a random ticket with 10 numbers, if you win all 10 you win $100K and that prize grows $1 for every person in attendance at the track until it is hit.

If the 25 minutes is an issue make it 15-20, 10 races in 3 hours.

All great points but again nothing hear will attract new blood....I'm not trying to be negative it's just isn't gonns happen....

If there was no takeout u wouldn't see any new blood exept the .commers that would have the system to win at it...

Racing is a dead issue anybody that went to party at Monmouth with friends will not be making a 2nd trip back the next racing day.....u got a better shot of George Washington or Abe Lincoln becoming next president

[Robert Goren]

People used to bet their house numbers, kid's birthdays, their age and a hundred other things on DD, Exactas and Tris. Now they bet them on the lottery or keno or roulette. There has be a reason for that. As far as I can see nobody is trying to get those people back to track. ADWs and OTBs are great for the serious horse player, but they have nothing to offer to those people. I don't know if racing can get them back, but they are not even trying. I don't even know into today's world that the serious horse player and the kid's birthday player can co-exist. A lot of what the serious horse player want is a turn off to those players.

[Stillriledup]

People used to bet their house numbers, kid's birthdays, their age and a hundred other things on DD, Exactas and Tris. Now they bet them on the lottery or keno or roulette. There has be a reason for that. As far as I can see nobody is trying to get those people back to track. ADWs and OTBs are great for the serious horse player, but they have nothing to offer to those people. I don't know if racing can get them back, but they are not even trying. I don't even know into today's world that the serious horse player and the kid's birthday player can co-exist. A lot of what the serious horse player want is a turn off to those players.

There are plenty of good handicappers who are begging for these fish to come back into the waters. Its sharks vs sharks these days, there is very little meat on the bone, certainly not like it used to be a few decades ago.

[Robert Fischer]

most of the things in this thread are important issues, that would improve customer service and improve handle. :ThmbUp:

To really grow handle we need to use the media better. Horse Racing uses about 10% of the possible media.
A few times a year on cable for major races, where we don't even incorporate an ADW or focus on gambling, doesn't cut it.

[iceknight]

It's sad but if you walk into Walmart and ask random people about horse racing u will get these responses:
Cheating
The Barbaro race
Horses dying
Drugs
Too complicated
Add to that: Horses being shipped off to slaughter houses or being abandoned

Now these people 4 days later may go spend 500 at the casino but that 500 will never see the inside of a racetrack.....these are reasons racing handle will never see increases again
There are truths in there, no?

[Phantombridgejumpe]

think it has to go that way forever.

I'll admit it might, but it might not.

Woodbridge is an OTB in New Jersey. Not the only one, but there aren't many. However you can play online (through the state) at a casino or at one on the state racetracks - my point is that it is not the only outlet.

A couple weeks ago it was Derby Wednesday and almost every seat with video monitors was taken, maybe about 250 in all. Add to that 40-60 people not sitting and maybe 20-40 at the bar and restaurant. I don't know how many people were playing and for how much money, but it was not dead and buried. The sport is far from done and I'm not willing to write it off. Sure it has huge problems, one being the attendance and handle on track, but I hope there are people far smarter than me trying to solve them.

[cordep17]

Go look at empty track grandstands and let me know how any track would ever try and see if racing can make a comeback....

Les Bois is doing this. I watched a bunch of videos, and they are really turning things around there. It is a small community that has the media's support. They treat it like other sporting events and people go.

they improved the racing surface and are trying to make their track more attractive and lucrative. On wednesdays, women get in free; if you treet the spectators right, they keep coming.

I don't agree with all of you that racing is done. I'm new to the game and it seems people of my age are still getting into it. I see numerous kids at the track betting the ponies with their dads.

[wiffleball whizz]

think it has to go that way forever.

I'll admit it might, but it might not.

Woodbridge is an OTB in New Jersey. Not the only one, but there aren't many. However you can play online (through the state) at a casino or at one on the state racetracks - my point is that it is not the only outlet.

A couple weeks ago it was Derby Wednesday and almost every seat with video monitors was taken, maybe about 250 in all. Add to that 40-60 people not sitting and maybe 20-40 at the bar and restaurant. I don't know how many people were playing and for how much money, but it was not dead and buried. The sport is far from done and I'm not willing to write it off. Sure it has huge problems, one being the attendance and handle on track, but I hope there are people far smarter than me trying to solve them.

I refuse click on the religion thread but maybe what I'm gonn say now belongs there...

If pro-creation was to stop and no more reproduction was allowed would there be anybody left in 110 years?

That's how I look at it with racing....whoever is at the Woodbridge otb now is the last in line of the horseplayer.....no new ones are being created once this current crop is dead that's a gonna be it.....

If I had to put a guess on it I'd say new poker players to new horseplayers ratio is 700/1......and to be honest I'm not even sure where I could find the 1

And no guys a person that bets the derby And puts 20 to win on a horse in the breeders cup isn't a new player

[Phantombridgejumpe]

The 700/1 number is a pure guess on your part. Even if it was accurate I would say it doesn't have to be that way forever. And by the way, Poker sure seemed hotter 2-3 years ago than it does today.

It wasn't all 65+ year olds either at the OTB. There was certainly a demographic to the crowd (male, white, older), but in terms of money that isn't the worst age group.

I suppose we may know in 10-20 years who was correct, but if you gave me 700/1 odds on racing improving in the US in that time I'd throw down a few bucks.

[wonatthewire1]

even with handles dropping the last few years, Twinspires has gone up in handle every year. there have been a few new states that now allow advanced deposit wagering. i know that this year Illinois is lost. but there are about 20 states that don't have account wagering now. 2 of those states will probably never get it, Utah and Hawaii. but the rest are still game. that is where the growth in handle could come from going forward. today racing is becoming a stay at home game with people sitting behind their screens.

probably won't get it in the eastern sunbelt states either (NC, SC, GA, TN)

[rastajenk]

.....no new ones are being created once this current crop is dead that's a gonna be it.....
People like you have been saying this for 30 years.

Is there some reason why an empty-nest dynamic should suddenly cease to exist?

[OCF]

... but if you give me a choice between watching:

1. Cards flip and dice roll, or
2. Horses in a stretch drive

it's not even close.

[traynor]

... but if you give me a choice between watching:

1. Cards flip and dice roll, or
2. Horses in a stretch drive

it's not even close.

I think it may be a factor of the amount wagered on the outcome. It is hard to imagine anyone being interested in horse races that are not in some way related to wagering. If there were no wagers (by anyone) on the Kentucky Derby, for example, who would really care about the outcome? It is the wagering aspect that needs to be emphasized in horse racing, not the "grand spectacle" and "sport" aspects. Nobody really cares about those.

Roll the dice, and even a novice has a shot at winning--at least in the short term. Show novices how to have a solid chance of winning occasionally, and the sport will thrive. Tell them they have to lose for years before they can even hope to break even, and they will tend to get glassy-eyed, shake their heads, and walk away. Sensible people, those.

[Dave Schwartz]

If pro-creation was to stop and no more reproduction was allowed would there be anybody left in 110 years?

That's how I look at it with racing....whoever is at the Woodbridge otb now is the last in line of the horseplayer.....no new ones are being created once this current crop is dead that's a gonna be it.....


Dead right. :ThmbUp:

[appistappis]

you only gotta go back 2 or 3 generations and see that baseball, boxing and horseracing were the only three sports that mattered.......boxing is gone, horseracing is next and baseball long ago fell to football as the number one.

and its all because of the gambling factor.

[wiffleball whizz]

And u know everybody will see huge Preakness handle this weekend and start preaching racing in making a comeback :lol: :lol: :lol:

No new players = dying game....not dead by any means but the reaper is coming

[Longshot6977]

I think the #1 priority is bringing in new horseplayers, whether they're young or old (well, hopefully young). I have about 8 nephews between 23 and 30 and some young friends about 20 thru 25 years young. Whenever they see the big TV races or hear negative publicity, they always ask me about the races since they are only exposed to this wonderful sport thru the big televised races. I try to put a positive spin on negative issues such as cheating, drugs, horse deaths etc that they hear about since I want them to get involved and not be scared away. I think we should all do these things and be advocates for our great game.

I love to take them to the track whenever possible and explain whatever I can in a positive manner. We should all take the time to get new blood interested since the tracks aren't doing their job. Let's face it, we are the remaining ones to keep the sport alive. (and I don't think it is anywhere near dead as some claim). Of course there are plenty of priorities, but I feel new blood should be foremost.

[precisionk]

I can safely say that all tracks that any form of card room/casino etc is infact a card room/casino with a horse track attached, not the other way around.

I try to support my local harness track and those who know me in the harness section know I was working for my local track as the on-air handicapping analyst. Mind you this was for free.

I did more then just be on the air and announce numbers. I did marketing for them to the locals, helped all patrons on basics of handicapping, threw tshirts to the crowd. You name it, I did it..for free.

This year I asked to be paid as the price of gas for me (120ish mile round trip) going to the track a few days a week doing something for the sport and the track for free was killler.

They did offer me something, but it didn't even cover the cost of the gas going to the track. Suffice to say, the short of it was they didn't have the budget/want to increase guest interaction and participation in relation to harness racing.

Basically, they could careless if I could get more people in the door for harness. Sadly, I am afraid this is the state of all tracks.

[wiffleball whizz]

I can safely say that all tracks that any form of card room/casino etc is infact a card room/casino with a horse track attached, not the other way around.

I try to support my local harness track and those who know me in the harness section know I was working for my local track as the on-air handicapping analyst. Mind you this was for free.

I did more then just be on the air and announce numbers. I did marketing for them to the locals, helped all patrons on basics of handicapping, threw tshirts to the crowd. You name it, I did it..for free.

This year I asked to be paid as the price of gas for me (120ish mile round trip) going to the track a few days a week doing something for the sport and the track for free was killler.

They did offer me something, but it didn't even cover the cost of the gas going to the track. Suffice to say, the short of it was they didn't have the budget/want to increase guest interaction and participation in relation to harness racing.

Basically, they could careless if I could get more people in the door for harness. Sadly, I am afraid this is the state of all tracks.

If did on air selections for harness racing I must know who u are if I saw u!!!! For the 22nd time today this game can't make it as a whole

[wiffleball whizz]

I think the #1 priority is bringing in new horseplayers, whether they're young or old (well, hopefully young). I have about 8 nephews between 23 and 30 and some young friends about 20 thru 25 years young. Whenever they see the big TV races or hear negative publicity, they always ask me about the races since they are only exposed to this wonderful sport thru the big televised races. I try to put a positive spin on negative issues such as cheating, drugs, horse deaths etc that they hear about since I want them to get involved and not be scared away. I think we should all do these things and be advocates for our great game.

I love to take them to the track whenever possible and explain whatever I can in a positive manner. We should all take the time to get new blood interested since the tracks aren't doing their job. Let's face it, we are the remaining ones to keep the sport alive. (and I don't think it is anywhere near dead as some claim). Of course there are plenty of priorities, but I feel new blood should be foremost.

Explain how it's not dead or dying........the overnights are as dead as can be....every racing behind the scene is trying every which way to get rid of the racing slot funds....why do they want to keep supporting a dying thing when the money can be used elsewhere....here are the tracks that will around in 10 years

Locks:
Delmar
Saratoga flats
Keeneland
Belmont
Gulfstream
Pimlico
Churchill
Tampa
Meadowlands
Northfield

Maybe:
Monmouth
Parx
Aqueduct
Santa Anita
Arlington
Hawthorne(prob could be in lock column)
Delaware
Los al
Fair grounds
Evangeline

No shot:
Finger lakes
Harrington
Dover
Freehold
Monticello
Rosecroft
Mountaineer
Pocono downs(racing to stop is lock)
Presque isle
Meadows
Atlsntic city
Penn national (5 years max)
Lone star
Retama
Sam Houston
Hazel park (5 years max)

I'm sure there are more....does anybody have any to add to any of these locks or maybes is there a maybe that should be a lock?

[PaceAdvantage]

Track handle will never increase......Handle was up in 2012.

[wiffleball whizz]

Handle was up in 2012.

Come on pace you can come up with a better one then that.....that's such a misleading number it's scary.....nobody wants racing to suceed more then me..

But gambling has exploded in the last 10 years and racing is on the decline or even a freefall you can't dispute that...

There is just no new blood coming in.....maybe the handle increase was because 2011 there were tons of cancelations from winter storms then last year that may be part of the reason....

I don't think anybody realises how much of a negative vibe any would be new blood has on racing....it's Just too far gone....

[PaceAdvantage]

SRU I work in prob the nicest casino in county and people that go there and other casino to be fair and they feel like rock stars....You work in a casino?

[PaceAdvantage]

People like you have been saying this for 30 years.

Is there some reason why an empty-nest dynamic should suddenly cease to exist?Bingo...I was waiting for someone to point this out.

Handle took a huge plunge starting in 2008 (coincidentally, about the same time as the economy tanked). It went down for 3 years before rebounding slightly in 2012.

Track attendance isn't important anymore...it's all about handle...

BTW, ask whiz how Foxwoods is doing financially... :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

And u know everybody will see huge Preakness handle this weekend and start preaching racing in making a comeback :lol: :lol: :lol:

No new players = dying game....not dead by any means but the reaper is comingDude, peeps like you have been saying this since the days of Ruffian...and yet, pari-mutuel handle actually went up in 2012...

[PaceAdvantage]

Come on pace you can come up with a better one then that.....that's such a misleading number it's scary.....nobody wants racing to suceed more then me..

But gambling has exploded in the last 10 years and racing is on the decline or even a freefall you can't dispute that...

There is just no new blood coming in.....maybe the handle increase was because 2011 there were tons of cancelations from winter storms then last year that may be part of the reason....

I don't think anybody realises how much of a negative vibe any would be new blood has on racing....it's Just too far gone....What do you mean come on?

You made a statement. I called you out on how it was flat out dead wrong. Nothing could be simpler.

[wiffleball whizz]

Dude, peeps like you have been saying this since the days of Ruffian...and yet, pari-mutuel handle actually went up in 2012...

Handle going up is a phantom statistic....it had to be due to cancelations

Can't wait this year when Atlantic city has the headline OCTOBER & NOVEMBER casino figures see first increase in years.....and that's cus hurricane sandy shut them down for 5 days and people couldn't get down here.....and that will be the headlines!!

[Dahoss2002]

Yeah - I found this game 40 years ago and was hooked, but in this instant gratification age with so many options available for legal and illegal gambling, why would someone take up this particular gambling habit with so many options available?

I love this sport but it sure seems like a balloon with a slow leak.
Brother I think u hit the nail on the head. I started playing regular in 1983 when I was 21. I met lots of people at the track back then and the 80's were some special years here at Louisiana Downs. Large crowds and the only game in town or anywhere close. People from the metroplex, Dallas area,and locals too used to fill the place up . Dollar to park, 2 dollars to get in. No one cared. Then came state lotteries, then national lotteries, then casino gambling almost everywhere.
Fast forward to present and how old are most of the people on this board?? I am 51 and seen recently where CJ was 46. Are we the last generation of horseplayers? Truthfully, besides Derby Day I don't see very many younger folks talking bout horse racing. Is it possible horse racing will pass with the Baby Boomers and Generation X????

[PaceAdvantage]

And nothing for nothing how can anybody go to a track for the first time pick up a program or racing form and understand a f#%^*\#= thing they are reading....if anybody here picked up a Chinese newspaper how long would u look at it before u put it down and said why am I wasting my time.....it's no different then putting a form in front of somebody for the first time.....What the heck does this have to do with anything? This didn't seem to be a problem 40,50,60 years ago when grandstands were PACKED at tracks across the country. They sold forms back then...same basic layout...same "crazy numbers" that only Einsteins could figure out, right whiz?

Obviously, learning to read PPs isn't a reason why track attendance is nowhere near what it used to be...

[wiffleball whizz]

What do you mean come on?

You made a statement. I called you out on how it was flat out dead wrong. Nothing could be simpler.

I think more people would agree with me and the 2012 handle increase is about as irrelevant a stat as you will ever see.....I'm saying the increase was due to racing cancellations from previous year....I don't have facts to back that up but I'd be willing to bet that cancelations were the result of increase handle....

But u can't seriously tell me that u think cus of handle increase in 2012 that racing is on the Road to recovery

[PaceAdvantage]

Large crowds and the only game in town or anywhere close.Yup...now we're getting warmer.

BTW, what kind of skimming does the state do off the top of a casino's daily take? Compare that to an average racetrack...which one is higher?

[wiffleball whizz]

What the heck does this have to do with anything? This didn't seem to be a problem 40,50,60 years ago when grandstands were PACKED at tracks across the country. They sold forms back then...same basic layout...same "crazy numbers" that only Einsteins could figure out, right whiz?

Obviously, learning to read PPs isn't a reason why track attendance is nowhere near what it used to be...


What does this have to do with anything?!?!?!

Of course it wasn't a problem 40,50,60 years ago cuz racing was the only game in town!!!!! They had the monopoly on gambling no casinos anywhere outside Vegas!!!!!!!!

Of course people would wanna learn how to read a form cus it was the only thing u can gamble on!!!!!!

Is this a valid point pace?!?!?!?

[PaceAdvantage]

What does this have to do with anything?!?!?!

Of course it wasn't a problem 40,50,60 years ago cuz racing was the only game in town!!!!! They had the monopoly on gambling no casinos anywhere outside Vegas!!!!!!!!

Of course people would wanna learn how to read a form cus it was the only thing u can gamble on!!!!!!

Is this a valid point pace?!?!?!?You brought it up as this incredible stumbling block to getting new fans for the game...and I point out that it wasn't a stumbling block years ago...why would it be one now?

People aren't as dumb as you're giving them credit for. It doesn't take long to learn how to read the track program / daily racing form...jeez...

Your point was the form is incredibly hard to understand for a newbie. I contend that doesn't matter. I point to packed grandstands years and years ago...when they also had crazy monkey-math forms that newbies couldn't understand...thereby making your point pointless.

People aren't coming to the track for many reasons...having to learn the form isn't one of them...having to learn how to handicap successfully is a different story.

[wiffleball whizz]

You brought it up as this incredible stumbling block to getting new fans for the game...and I point out that it wasn't a stumbling block years ago...why would it be one now?

People aren't as dumb as you're giving them credit for. It doesn't take long to learn how to read the track program / daily racing form...jeez...

Your point was the form is incredibly hard to understand for a newbie. I contend that doesn't matter. I point to packed grandstands years and years ago...when they also had crazy monkey-math forms that newbies couldn't understand...thereby making your point pointless.

People aren't coming to the track for many reasons...having to learn the form isn't one of them...having to learn how to handicap successfully is a different story.


50 years ago if u wanted to gamble it HAD to be at the track

In 2013 if you want to gamble u have a million different options...And racing is nowhere on the totum pole in that equation....

Example let's look at Foxwoods on a Saturday night....picture the whole casino
Like a job fair....each game I mention is a potential employer

Blackjack---100 tabes of 6 people applying per table (600)

Poker----75 tables of 10 people applying (750)

Baccarat----40 tables of 7 people applying (280)

Slots-----5000 slots that are occupied by 4200 people applying for a job

Craps----15 tables with 13 people per table (195)

Racebook-----13 people betting horses....(13)

Out of 6037 people gambling 13 people went to the racing section of the job fair...or u can look at it like a food court at the mall....the racing section people avoid it

So at the casino every option is on the table and only 13 out of 6037 And that's not even counting the 1200 person bingo hall at Foxwoods are betting horses that's all u need to see in regards to what people think of horse racing

This is the best way I can describe how irrelevant racing is in the eye of the gambler.......hope how i explained it makes sense

[depalma113]

Poker is dying and it is doing so at a far greater clip than horse racing. Casinos are wasting floor space with poker rooms.

[Robert Goren]

Poker is dying and it is doing so at a far greater clip than horse racing. Casinos are wasting floor space with poker rooms. With the death of internet poker, this might actually be true. Although I might add there is a quite few poker players begging congress and state legestures to change the laws. As far as I know there is no handicappers doing that. Any lobbying on behalf of horse racing is coming from the owner and trainers.
On the increase on handle in 2012, I have to wonder how much of that was do to highly discounted whale money. The one thing that gets over looked is somebody has to lose. In horse racing, it is not the whales. Horse racing pools are kept alive by small gamblers losing their shirts. In casino gambling, the whales are not winners. A big difference and an overlooked difference from horse racing. I might be wrong, I don't see how horse racing can survive with 80+ % of its handle coming from whales. Like I said before, somebody has to lose and in horse racing, it is not the whales. Just think for a second, winning blackjack players get banned no matter how large their bets are. Winning horse players are encouraged to bet more. It is business model that going to have trouble surviving. Gambling joints including race tracks need losers to survive, lots of them losing lots of money.

[rastajenk]

I've been thinking recently, if I could get back in to the customer service management of a track, that I would offer, for free, a stripped down version of pp's for the benefit of the casual fan that does wander in from the slots side of things: date, race, class (clm price, stks, alw purse -not all the n/w2x+y+zpm1500lifetime b.s.), track condition, running lines, a couple times...I'm not even sure meds and equipment would be important for the target audience. You can make bets off something like that and hit enough where you might be interested enough to seek out more detailed information, or, maybe you're content with limited content. "Brick by brick, my citizens; brickk by brick."

[davew]

50 years ago if u wanted to gamble it HAD to be at the track

In 2013 if you want to gamble u have a million different options...And racing is nowhere on the totum pole in that equation....

Example let's look at Foxwoods on a Saturday night....picture the whole casino
Like a job fair....each game I mention is a potential employer

Blackjack---100 tabes of 6 people applying per table (600)

Poker----75 tables of 10 people applying (750)

Baccarat----40 tables of 7 people applying (280)

Slots-----5000 slots that are occupied by 4200 people applying for a job

Craps----15 tables with 13 people per table (195)

Racebook-----13 people betting horses....(13)

Out of 6037 people gambling 13 people went to the racing section of the job fair...or u can look at it like a food court at the mall....the racing section people avoid it

So at the casino every option is on the table and only 13 out of 6037 And that's not even counting the 1200 person bingo hall at Foxwoods are betting horses that's all u need to see in regards to what people think of horse racing

This is the best way I can describe how irrelevant racing is in the eye of the gambler.......hope how i explained it makes sense

I guess if you work in a casino, you have a jaded/biased view of things. Thirty years ago I went to NV casinos to bet on horses. A casino would be my last choice now.

[Longshot6977]

I don't think anybody realises how much of a negative vibe any would be new blood has on racing....it's Just too far gone....

You're kidding, right? You think new horseplayers have a negative vibe on horseracing?! :lol: :lol: Please explain.

[jahura2]

I love reading everyones opinions and have been hearing about the "death" of our sport for years and I still dont see it.
1. Who says we arent attracting new blood and how do you determine that? On track attendance at my home track Keeneland skyrockets every year and how do you deduct that we arent developing new players. This increase in attendance is mainly young college age professionals or students. Why would you think they wont eventually turn in to the games new fans? I think they will. Night racing at Churchill is filled with these young people, I maintain they will be lifelong fans. They just do it in a different form and being more computer literate than my generation they will matriculate to ADW. I maintain that there ARE new customers out there its just impossible to measure. If handles is up like PA says that is still a good thing regardless of perceived reasons.
2. Even if many small tracks close I dont have a problem with that it makes the product better and may lead to a unification of rules and regulations.
3. I have no problem focusing my wagering on Gulfstream, Keeneland, Belmont, Saratoga, SA, Churchill, Tampa. If Turfway or Beulah closes I could care less and it wont diminish my wagering dollars. Losing Hollywood will strengthen SA and Del Mar, in this case its good to thin the heard.
I prefer to be more optimistic than gloom and doom. At least I know racing will still be around for the years I have left.

[acorn54]

it might be a good idea for the racing industry to mimick the casino industry and hire OUTSIDE consultants to evaluate what needs to be done to stimulate public participation.

[castaway01]

We have this discussion every few months. First it was poker killing racing. Now poker is dying as well. It's simply the vast amount of gambling competition racing faces. There are easier, fastest ways to gamble---whether they are better, more challenging or more fun for US is another story, but the gambling dollar is being split in a million different ways and for most people those venues are more attractive ways to wager.

The whole "only old people are at the track" thing, while largely true on a weekday since most people under age 60 are working (as I should be doing now), was also written about 60 years ago. The game didn't die in 1960 either.

There are many obstacles against racing's success and only a few tracks are really thriving, but it's not dead yet. I really don't think half the tracks in existence will be closed 10 years from now, only because I heard that 10 years ago too and only a handful have closed, while slots tracks have opened to replace them.

[JimG]

Horse tracks need to cater to the simulcast/at-home player instead of worrying about trying to get some small bettor to pay for an admission seat and drink beer. Tracks need to coordinate their post times. The signal should be available for free on the internet and be of top quality. Past perfomances should also be free. Tote system needs to be updated to eliminate the appearance of betting after the races have started. The drug policy needs to be uniform and enforced. The vig needs to be no more than 10% on WPS and 15% on exotics either through the actual laws or rebates back to that percentage, through ADW's for all horse players.

However track management, owners, and trainers think the business of horse racing is first and foremost about them, not the horse player. As long as people bet their money with that in mind, change will come very slowly, if at all. Jeff Mullins summed up his thoughts on degenerate horse players long ago. I doubt he is the only trainer, owner, or track executive to feel this way.

Ignoring horse players or slapping them on the back while sticking it to them where the sun don't shine worked okay when it was the only game in town. Various forms of legal gambling exist now that did not forty plus years ago.

I am not saying racing is a dead sport, however, it will continue to slowly dry up until those running the industry fully embrace that horse racing is about gambling and the gamblers. In case you don't know it, the gamblers are the customers.

[PaceAdvantage]

50 years ago if u wanted to gamble it HAD to be at the track

In 2013 if you want to gamble u have a million different options...And racing is nowhere on the totum pole in that equation....

Example let's look at Foxwoods on a Saturday night....picture the whole casino
Like a job fair....each game I mention is a potential employer

Blackjack---100 tabes of 6 people applying per table (600)

Poker----75 tables of 10 people applying (750)

Baccarat----40 tables of 7 people applying (280)

Slots-----5000 slots that are occupied by 4200 people applying for a job

Craps----15 tables with 13 people per table (195)

Racebook-----13 people betting horses....(13)

Out of 6037 people gambling 13 people went to the racing section of the job fair...or u can look at it like a food court at the mall....the racing section people avoid it

So at the casino every option is on the table and only 13 out of 6037 And that's not even counting the 1200 person bingo hall at Foxwoods are betting horses that's all u need to see in regards to what people think of horse racing

This is the best way I can describe how irrelevant racing is in the eye of the gambler.......hope how i explained it makes senseIt's funny you bring up Foxwoods...they have been in some financial trouble for quite some time now. What's the matter with them? Are they charging for admission/parking? Are they not giving away free drinks?

What gives?

Why are they fighting to survive?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/18/magazine/mike-sokolove-foxwood-casinos.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[VeryOldMan]

We have this discussion every few months. First it was poker killing racing. Now poker is dying as well. It's simply the vast amount of gambling competition racing faces. There are easier, fastest ways to gamble---whether they are better, more challenging or more fun for US is another story, but the gambling dollar is being split in a million different ways and for most people those venues are more attractive ways to wager.


Bingo. We are fans of what is really a "niche" gambling experience. Look at the financial statements of some of the racino operators - MTR Gaming (Mountaineer, Presque Isle, Scioto) had 40 times the revenue from the casino side versus the horse racing side last year. I walk around Charles Town and see a relatively small number of people at the racetrack/book versus a whole lot more wailing away on the slot machines. I see big lines form at the convenience store in my office building when Powerball gets sizeable. Just a whole lot of other ways to gamble - legally - than in the past.

Total handle on racing was up 1% last year, but last year's $10.9 billion is still down 26% from 2006. That's enough gambling to keep this sport from disappearing quickly, but there is too much competition for the gaming dollar for horse racing to have any big renaissance in my view. Still will be here a decade from now surely, but I stand by my "slowly leaking balloon" analogy.

[acorn54]

i think the potential for growth is there
in the local mall where i work ( a supermarket) we have TWO scratch-off machines because the customer traffic is so high, plus two stores down, there is a stationary store with a constant line for scratch offs.
the top prizes for alot of these scratch offs in new york, anyway, is only a few hundred or a few thousand dollars, similiar to a decent payoff at the nyra tracks.
so why can't we pull these people away from the scratch offs and into betting the exactas and triples and so forth?

[wiffleball whizz]

It's funny you bring up Foxwoods...they have been in some financial trouble for quite some time now. What's the matter with them? Are they charging for admission/parking? Are they not giving away free drinks?

What gives?

Why are they fighting to survive?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/18/magazine/mike-sokolove-foxwood-casinos.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Foxwoods is in dire straights if I used that term correctly

Aqueduct and Yonkers destroyed Foxwoods and Newport grand and twin rivers slots palors also hurt......again place is huge and not enough people going

Also was informed since I moved away last march the take has really taken a hit :lol: :lol:

[MightBeSosa]

I figured off track handle would outpace on track by 10 to 1.

That was in 1995.

Is any of this news?

[precisionk]

i think the potential for growth is there
in the local mall where i work ( a supermarket) we have TWO scratch-off machines because the customer traffic is so high, plus two stores down, there is a stationary store with a constant line for scratch offs.
the top prizes for alot of these scratch offs in new york, anyway, is only a few hundred or a few thousand dollars, similiar to a decent payoff at the nyra tracks.
so why can't we pull these people away from the scratch offs and into betting the exactas and triples and so forth?

The issue is why go 30 minutes out of your way to a track, when you can pickup groceries, buy a sweater and get your gambling fix at the same location?

[acorn54]

The issue is why go 30 minutes out of your way to a track, when you can pickup groceries, buy a sweater and get your gambling fix at the same location?
good point-something that needs to be addressed
here in nassau county, new york, the state has allowed SOME local sports bars to put in wagering machines so the cliental can wager. i think this is a start.

[Stillriledup]

While the game technically might not be dying, the question we have to ask ourselves is this.

Is the game LIVING?

Is it prospering, flourishing and thriving?

Or, does it seem like the game is hanging on by a thread?

Race tracks really have done nothing to truly improve the state of the game, all they seem to do is open the doors, flick on the lights (In some cases like Hollywood, NOT flick on the lights in certain areas of the track) and just run horses in a circle and pray that people bet.

Are the prayers being answered?

[baconswitchfarm]

I like when people say doomsday people have been predicting racing dying for thirty years. It is dead. Casino companies just have the brain dead body on life support. They are now harvesting the organs. The organs being state licenses and valuable real estate. The day that the casinos are no longer ordered to prop up racing, game over. Sixty percent of tracks will close in six months. Twenty percent more in two years. The remaining tracks will then suffer as the breeding industry collapses in on itself. No industry can survive with ninety percent of the tracks losing money. I am going to try to ride the game into its grave and jump off the coffin when they start throwing on the dirt.

[Stillriledup]

I like when people say doomsday people have been predicting racing dying for thirty years. It is dead. Casino companies just have the brain dead body on life support. They are now harvesting the organs. The organs being state licenses and valuable real estate. The day that the casinos are no longer ordered to prop up racing, game over. Sixty percent of tracks will close in six months. Twenty percent more in two years. The remaining tracks will then suffer as the breeding industry collapses in on itself. No industry can survive with ninety percent of the tracks losing money. I am going to try to ride the game into its grave and jump off the coffin when they start throwing on the dirt.

Here's a question. If tracks start going out of business one by one, won't that mean that the surviving tracks start getting increased handle from the ousted bettors who no longer have a 'favorite track' to play?

[cordep17]

I'm sure there are more....does anybody have any to add to any of these locks or maybes is there a maybe that should be a lock?

Fairmount is a maybe. I read an article, and it said the people running the thing really want the government to ok the slot machines. They said that if they don't, they may not be around much longer.

[Dave Schwartz]

Here's a question. If tracks start going out of business one by one, won't that mean that the surviving tracks start getting increased handle from the ousted bettors who no longer have a 'favorite track' to play?

I would think so, but there will always be a loss in the transfer process. As an example, if there is a guy who is comfortable betting $20 per race, playing 2 tracks per day and suddenly his favorite track is gone, he will probably add a different track to his playlist. However, if he consolidates down to just the one track he will not likely double his wagers.

Also, consider HOL. When it closes, the dates are simply picked up by SA. That does not improve the racing at all. In fact it might hurt because of the lack of stable space.

[cordep17]

I would think so, but there will always be a loss in the transfer process. As an example, if there is a guy who is comfortable betting $20 per race, playing 2 tracks per day and suddenly his favorite track is gone, he will probably add a different track to his playlist. However, if he consolidates down to just the one track he will not likely double his wagers.

Also, consider HOL. When it closes, the dates are simply picked up by SA. That does not improve the racing at all. In fact it might hurt because of the lack of stable space.

I think it also hurts that so many states aren't allowing for ADW yet. If your home track closes, and you aren't the kind to spend your time at an OTB, then you aren't going to play. If tracks do start to close on a consistent basis, then it will be key that ADW will be available to those who usually attend the races live.

[wiffleball whizz]

Fairmount is a maybe. I read an article, and it said the people running the thing really want the government to ok the slot machines. They said that if they don't, they may not be around much longer.

Agree but say fairmount got slots today pretty sure they are in either Missouri or Illinois sad I don't know within 3-5 years the state will try and cut out the slot funding to the racing side which brings zero to the table

That's when the tracks will start closing when states find a way to cut off the free Money to the horses.......too many horsemen walk around with the attitude Everybody owes them something

And again very easy to say the tracks offer rebates when your betting from home with huge rebates coming in but most of us don't go that route....any idea to increase handle in all likelihood won't work....

Somebody before mentioned Churchill was packed at night....sure they were with 21 year old kids that's go to Louisville U....the don't bet more then $15 for the whole night and bring nothing to the table.....see the Atlantic city meet a few weeks ago.....13k on track with a handle that came out to $16 a person....that's a joke people that are going to track are going to drink not gamble and that isn't helping any

[Saratoga_Mike]

Somebody before mentioned Churchill was packed at night....sure they were with 21 year old kids that's go to Louisville U....the don't bet more then $15 for the whole night and bring nothing to the table.....see the Atlantic city meet a few weeks ago.....13k on track with a handle that came out to $16 a person....that's a joke people that are going to track are going to drink not gamble and that isn't helping any

I haven't seen the numbers, but I'd bet a ton of money the CD night crowd's per capita handle is radically higher than AC's.

[wiffleball whizz]

I haven't seen the numbers, but I'd bet a ton of money the CD night crowd's per capita handle is radically higher than AC's.

Per capita I'm sure it is but in no way even comes close to the per capita track handle of Belmont....

The ac meet was just a 6 day stand filled with people having absolutely nothing to do but go there......BUT it did help create 1 new fan....somebody I work with that loses 1000 a week playing bj at casino learned from me the "masters bet" by betting $36 and $48 tri keys....I turned the kid into a problemed horse player...first day of the meet he was betting $3wps on 3 different horses then doing $3 different exacts boxes like a dummy......by closing day and hanging around me the tickets turned to $1 tri 23/14578/1345789!!!!!! See I'm good for the game!!!

[Robert Goren]

They may have bet only $15, but you got them in the door for the first time. That in itself is a major achievement. How many will eventually turn into regular horseplayers is open to question, but some will. If they don't step their foot in the door the first time, they never will. I know it a pain to put with drunken college kids, but the are the game's future even though that future might be 10 or 20 years down the line. A full grown regular horse player does not just magically appear. They have the seed planted in them some how.

[jdhanover]

They may have bet only $15, but you got them in the door for the first time. That in itself is a major achievement. How many will eventually turn into regular horseplayers is open to question, but some will. If they don't step their foot in the door the first time, they never will. I know it a pain to put with drunken college kids, but the are the game's future even though that future might be 10 or 20 years down the line. A full grown regular horse player does not just magically appear. They have the seed planted in them some how.

Exactly!!!! When you first went to the track, did you bet what you bet now? isure as heck didn't. In college at the time, I tried to stretch $30-$50 across the entire day. Today I'm up to $60 :D :D :D (ok, maybe a bit more).

Seriously, though, you gotta start generating interest in people even if they can't bet a lot.

Sport is shrinking, but not dying. I think some of the smaller tracks will go out and in certain ares there will be consolidation (e.g. HOL), but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Many of the small tracks are dumps and are not the kind of place that a casual fan will go to get 'hooked' on the sport.

The consolidation vastly improves the economics since you have cut the facility cost in half.

Many other things are needed, but condolidation and some shrinkage doesn't necessarily mean dying.

And yes, there are (some) new younger fans. But they don't hang out with us old farts!

[wiffleball whizz]

They may have bet only $15, but you got them in the door for the first time. That in itself is a major achievement. How many will eventually turn into regular horseplayers is open to question, but some will. If they don't step their foot in the door the first time, they never will. I know it a pain to put with drunken college kids, but the are the game's future even though that future might be 10 or 20 years down the line. A full grown regular horse player does not just magically appear. They have the seed planted in them some how.

What is your definition of a regular horseplayer..is he :

Bets Kentucky derby
Bets all 3 triple crown races
Bets all 3 triple crown races and breeders cup
Goes to live racing 1 time a month
Goes to otb 3 times a week
Goes to track whenever time/bankroll permits?

I'm gonna hold firm with my statements....there is no new blood coming into the game....poker is not losing players like others have stated its as popular as ever

I bet horses in about 10 different places when I have time

Ballys ac
Harrahs ac
Borgata
Foxwoods
Mohegan sun
Freehold
Woodbridge otb
Yonkers
Meadowlands
Ac racecourse

At 31 not one time is anybody betting younger then me....of course at the meadowland u will get the random beer drinkers at 22 betting $2 exacta box but that's it....

I seriously think the only way racing survives is somebody like me become in charge of some kind of marketing initiative....nobody has a passion for the game at my age anymore....if I didn't have work I'd be at the track 7 days a week there's nothing better.....

These kids that play poker don't realize the rush you get when ur live for 3500 in a pick 4 when you got 4 horses and there's 19mtp with each minute the tension builds or when u got a 10/1 and a 15/1 hooked up in a tri And it's midland and your trying to hang on for dear life....theres no poker hand or craps roll or cocaine/drug that can Match that high.....somebody has to get that message out And nobody has in last 15 years.....somebody with my love of the game from a gambling point has to grab the reigns here!!!!!!!!

[Dave Schwartz]

I think it also hurts that so many states aren't allowing for ADW yet. If your home track closes, and you aren't the kind to spend your time at an OTB, then you aren't going to play. If tracks do start to close on a consistent basis, then it will be key that ADW will be available to those who usually attend the races live.

Agreed.

I had a conversation with track management from a particular track a couple of years back. They were quite adamant that in order to survive they had to get the players back to the track and make sure that all their betting was done through their windows rather than via the internet.

I told them that their viewpoint was unrealistic.

They went on to say that this was why they blocked or impaired the internet and cell phone signals; to force them to go to the window.

I laughed, and said, "You are not forcing them to bet through the window. You are forcing them to stay away from the track."

We went on to discuss what they wanted in a player. It was unbelievably unrealistic. They said that they wanted players that were out for recreation (i.e. did not expect to win). Furthermore, they want a guy who comes to the track prepared to lose $500-$1,000 for the day and they expect him to come EVERY day.

When I asked how many people they personally knew or had even heard of that would come to the track for recreation to the tune of $2k-$3k per week for an entire meet, they said, "We know a couple."

Well, there you go... if all you need are a couple of players, you are all set. Need more than that and you better find a different business model.

The point is, these guys were out of touch.

[wiffleball whizz]

My fathers house is 25 min to the meadowlands....the nj turnpike from exit 10 to 16w is 6.10 each way that was as of last summer....plus admission gas program it's $40 bill before u bet a race....that's not helping out the cause....100s of reasons not to go to track very few reasons to go

[iceknight]

Wonder why they remain so adamant?

More than that, people on this board, who are posting that racetrack handle went up in 2012.. so who act as if the sport is doing great, really need to take a hard look at revenue growth in gambling competition, and more importantly at the effect of economic downturn on casino vs horse racing handles. (2008).

For reference, casino revenue was $28 billion and horseracing revenue was ~$15 billion in 2003.


Links to the data and google docs file at this post
Racing v. Casino (http://stockgage.blogspot.com/2013/05/racing-handle-vs-casino-revenue-trends.html)

[wiffleball whizz]

Wonder why they remain so adamant?

More than that, people on this board, who are posting that racetrack handle went up in 2012.. so who act as if the sport is doing great, really need to take a hard look at revenue growth in gambling competition, and more importantly at the effect of economic downturn on casino vs horse racing handles. (2008).

For reference, casino revenue was $28 billion and horseracing revenue was ~$15 billion in 2003.


Links to the data and google docs file at this post
Racing v. Casino (http://stockgage.blogspot.com/2013/05/racing-handle-vs-casino-revenue-trends.html)

Thanks for the back up :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Here's one I just thought off.....people make plans to go to the casino on the 21st bday years and years in advance....

I wonder how many 18yr olds have it circled on the calender that they are gonn spend there 18th bday at the local racetrack :lol: :lol:

But don't worry ice knight as the evening progresses people will say these graphs are wrong.....can somebody pleaser post cancellations in 2011 then in 2012.....

[VeryOldMan]

Wonder why they remain so adamant?
For reference, casino revenue was $28 billion and horseracing revenue was ~$15 billion in 2003.


I was doing some research today and even this overstates horse racing - the casino numbers are net house winnings; horse racing is shown as handle (i.e., gross). Horse racing should be discounted down to the average takeout percentage.

Most recent 2012 numbers I saw were circa $37 billion for US casinos (net) versus circa $11 billion in horse racing handle (gross) - probably should count that as about $2 billion net. And that $37 billion is just US casinos - not any other form of legal gaming.

[iceknight]

Thanks for the back up :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Here's one I just thought off.....people make plans to go to the casino on the 21st bday years and years in advance....

I wonder how many 18yr olds have it circled on the calender that they are gonn spend there 18th bday at the local racetrack.... It was nt much about "backing you up" but more about looking at some data myself.

Of course, trends are only predictors. Doesn't mean things end up happening like that... who knows we might have a triple crown at hands and things could change big time for racing?

Here are the sources I used:
Americangaming.org http://bit.ly/amrgaming
Jockey Club: http://www.jockeyclub.com/factbook.asp?section=8

[PaceAdvantage]

Foxwoods is in dire straights if I used that term correctly

Aqueduct and Yonkers destroyed Foxwoods and Newport grand and twin rivers slots palors also hurt......again place is huge and not enough people going

Also was informed since I moved away last march the take has really taken a hit :lol: :lol:Aqueduct and Yonkers didn't destroy Mohegan Sun too? Odd...

[iceknight]

I was doing some research today and even this overstates horse racing - the casino numbers are net house winnings; horse racing is shown as handle (i.e., gross). Horse racing should be discounted down to the average takeout percentage.

Most recent 2012 numbers I saw were circa $37 billion for US casinos (net) versus circa $11 billion in horse racing handle (gross) - probably should count that as about $2 billion net. And that $37 billion is just US casinos - not any other form of legal gaming. Hmm.. that is right, i forgot about that. Now, what about the slots money that goes back to racetracks.. how is that accounted for?

[PaceAdvantage]

Wonder why they remain so adamant?

More than that, people on this board, who are posting that racetrack handle went up in 2012.. so who act as if the sport is doing great, really need to take a hard look at revenue growth in gambling competition, and more importantly at the effect of economic downturn on casino vs horse racing handles. (2008).If you took from my factual post stating handle went up in 2012, that I think this means "the sport is doing great," you seriously misunderstood the point of my post.

[PaceAdvantage]

Thanks for the back up :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

Here's one I just thought off.....people make plans to go to the casino on the 21st bday years and years in advance....

I wonder how many 18yr olds have it circled on the calender that they are gonn spend there 18th bday at the local racetrack :lol: :lol:

But don't worry ice knight as the evening progresses people will say these graphs are wrong.....can somebody pleaser post cancellations in 2011 then in 2012.....Anybody can look at the handle figures the past 5-10 years (anyone who isn't in a coma) and see racing is in big trouble...

Nobody here (that I am aware of) is saying racing is in great shape.

Then again, you really didn't need me pointing this out to you.

[VeryOldMan]

Hmm.. that is right, i forgot about that. Now, what about the slots money that goes back to racetracks.. how is that accounted for?

Just shows up in the (bloated) purses for the horsemen and maybe in some racetrack improvements. I don't think we've seen any takeout reduction from the subsidy as bettors, although I only know from the two states I'm most familiar with as a bettor, so maybe I'm wrong.

I think we are viewed as the sheep to be sheared, rather than as the ultimate lifeblood of the industry.

[Stillriledup]

Just shows up in the (bloated) purses for the horsemen and maybe in some racetrack improvements. I don't think we've seen any takeout reduction from the subsidy as bettors, although I only know from the two states I'm most familiar with as a bettor, so maybe I'm wrong.

I think we are viewed as the sheep to be sheared, rather than as the ultimate lifeblood of the industry.

Your last sentence is the ultimate truth. Racing execs have never embraced that the 'lowly gambler' was an asset to be coddled, groomed and cared for. They took that asset for granted and many of those assets have gone away.

Is there some rule or law that prevents the 'suits' from getting in the trenches, trying to learn who their customers are and making sure they are taken care of?

If i was a GM of a track i would know all my regular customers personally, they would all have my business card in case they had a question and i would act as if their happiness was directly related to my ability to actually have a paying job that i wasnt taking for granted.

[wiffleball whizz]

Aqueduct and Yonkers didn't destroy Mohegan Sun too? Odd...

They pulverized the sun......maybe even more then the woods....6 of my friends got laid off....it was because of Yonkers and aqueduct no other way to describe it...

When massachussetts gets casinos it till deal the knockout blow to those casinos as will table games in the 3 surrounding states...it will put Table game pit bosses right out of commission

[Maximillion]

I think it would be great if there was an organized effort to boycott certain track(s)......reasons being high takeout,no adw,accepting known cheaters, etc.etc.

This would no doubt send a message.

[Maximillion]

States like Arizona,Illinois,Texas and others are effectively saying they are only interested in growing handle thru otb and on-site handle.
Fine.
Eliminate all out of state handle thru adw on their product.(I know it wont happen but I can dream.)

[wiffleball whizz]

I think it would be great if there was an organized effort to boycott certain track(s)......reasons being high takeout,no adw,accepting known cheaters, etc.etc.

This would no doubt send a message.

That's basically what the deal is at Pocono and Harrington....the purses almost outweigh the handle/..I really can't believe the governer of these states lets all this money go out window to trainers with multiple DOCUMENTED drug violations...I dont see how this isn't stopped.....if the regular town citizens or the ones who cry about everything knew what we knew it would be over...

It sounds dumb but the racetracks have to do something.....they can't comp dinners they can't give free rooms....they mystery vouchers were good but were peanuts in the end.....

If I owned a track a harness one I'd race at midnight and be the only one racing that's one way a track can drum up business....what if freehold had a midnight post all the action it would get from central time zone and west coast.......freeholds biggest handle was a few years ago there was a winter storm and they were the only track going in country for 3 hours....

Somebody should take a shot with that....and I don't know why they don't what do they have to lose...I bet horses till 2:30am at borgata freehold could run along side the east coast tracks.....just using fhld as an example

[Phantombridgejumpe]

Just askin...

[wiffleball whizz]

Just askin...

If I made this post I'd get buried till the cows come home :lol:

[wiffleball whizz]

It's funny you bring up Foxwoods...they have been in some financial trouble for quite some time now. What's the matter with them? Are they charging for admission/parking? Are they not giving away free drinks?

What gives?

Why are they fighting to survive?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/18/magazine/mike-sokolove-foxwood-casinos.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Was wondering if my Foxwoods comparison on a Saturday night reflects tiger stance on where horses stand in the publics view....including bingo u have 7500 people of which on 13 choose horses.....that's 1 in every 576 people go that route

[ronsmac]

There are plenty of good handicappers who are begging for these fish to come back into the waters. Its sharks vs sharks these days, there is very little meat on the bone, certainly not like it used to be a few decades ago.
Quite honestly it's been sharks vs sharks for a long time. Getting my start as a teen in n.y. in the early/ mid 80s, i knew a few big players and my dad was aquaintances with Quirin and a couple n.y racing writers, and they were complaining about sharks vs sharks even back then. It was either John piesen or Ray Kerrison who was complaining about takeout as far back as 1982.

[iceknight]

If you took from my factual post stating handle went up in 2012, that I think this means "the sport is doing great," you seriously misunderstood the point of my post. Granted.

[wiffleball whizz]

Quite honestly it's been sharks vs sharks for a long time. Getting my start as a teen in n.y. in the early/ mid 80s, i knew a few big players and my dad was aquaintances with Quirin and a couple n.y racing writers, and they were complaining about sharks vs sharks even back then. It was either John piesen or Ray Kerrison who was complaining about takeout as far back as 1982.

Funny post....in high school I bet horses and went to Monmouth every weekend and at my high school graduation at the rutgers athletic center my father friend introduces John Piesen to me-----I sat next to his daughter all year in class :bang: :bang: :bang:

And ray kerrison he was before my time but he wrote for the post triple crown 3 times a year and wrote great articles for the post!!!!!! I think he's retired now can anybody share any of his good articles from the past id love to read them...I really can't find them anywhere

[PaceAdvantage]

They pulverized the sun......maybe even more then the woods....6 of my friends got laid off....it was because of Yonkers and aqueduct no other way to describe it...

When massachussetts gets casinos it till deal the knockout blow to those casinos as will table games in the 3 surrounding states...it will put Table game pit bosses right out of commissionI don't recall reading articles about how "the Sun" is incurring mountains of debt and has one foot in the grave...maybe you could point me to one?

[PaceAdvantage]

If I made this post I'd get buried till the cows come home :lol:Buried by whom? Not me...nor I suspect anyone else.

[PaceAdvantage]

Funny post....in high school I bet horses and went to Monmouth every weekend and at my high school graduation at the rutgers athletic center my father friend introduces John Piesen to me-----I sat next to his daughter all year in class :bang: :bang: :bang:

And ray kerrison he was before my time but he wrote for the post triple crown 3 times a year and wrote great articles for the post!!!!!! I think he's retired now can anybody share any of his good articles from the past id love to read them...I really can't find them anywhere

You are wise beyond your years. You claim to be 31, but you act like an 80yo grandfather with your off-tangent tales and sidebars.... :lol:

[wiffleball whizz]

You are wise beyond your years. You claim to be 31, but you act like an 80yo grandfather with your off-tangent tales and sidebars.... :lol:

I've been around too long!!!! Can't tell u how mad I was I was sitting next to piesans daughter in high school and never knew he was her father...at the least could have gotten some info!!!! :lol:

And I can't help the off tangent tales but I can tell u they are 100 percent true...

Guess its safe to say the 2am sweeps are well underway this morning!!! Hope everybody on this forum has a great day!!!!!! I'll be invading New York City and the slate club for a work function so you guys may have a night with none of my BS!!!!!!!!

[thaskalos]

My house is strategically located only a few minutes away from both a full-scale casino and a nice, spacious OTB. The OTB is almost empty at all times, including weekends...while the casino is always busy, and you can't get close to the table games on the weekends -- even though blackjack games on the weekends carry a $50 minimum bet. The OTB business is dead in the Chicago area...even now that online wagering on horse races has been disallowed in our state.

It makes me wonder if the casino patrons are feeling the same economic pinch that the horseplayers have obviously been seriously affected by.

I love horse racing, and I would very much like to see this game not only survive, but thrive. But I also realize that it takes penetrating vision and creative ideas to revive this game...and the current leadership of this sport does nor inspire confidence -- to put it mildly.

The people who run our sport are operating as if horse racing still held a legalized gambling monopoly in this country. If they didn't operate under this delusion, then they'd realize that the most heavily-taxed gambling game in existence cannot also be the one with the biggest integrity issues.

[wiffleball whizz]

I don't recall reading articles about how "the Sun" is incurring mountains of debt and has one foot in the grave...maybe you could point me to one?

In yet another blow for state and local governments who think more legalized gambling is a great way to increase tax revenues comes a story from the Norwich Bulletin about deep financial problems being experienced by the Mohegan Sun casino in Connecticut:
The parent entity of Mohegan Sun recently received a waiver from its bankers, something the casino operator sees as a vote of confidence in its future. Yet it could be the calm before a major storm in Connecticut’s economy in 2012, an analyst said.

Foxwoods Resort Casino, whose parent also is in talks to restructure debt, and Mohegan Sun are on course for severe financial problems in the year ahead, said Clyde Barrow, a University of Massachusetts Dartmouth professor of public policy who follows the New England casino industry.

The Mohegan Tribal Gaming Authority was unable to complete a refinancing agreement during its fiscal first quarter, which ended today. With that, the authority’s auditors attached a “going concern” warning to 2011 financial statements, authority CEO Mitchell Etess said Thursday.

A filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission said lack of a resolution would materially impair Mohegan Sun’s ability to operate.
So just how bad is it?
Mohegan’s total debt as of Sept. 30 was $1.6 billion, the authority reported. Of that, $811.1 million comes due within the next 12 months, including $535 million that needs to be paid by March 9 and $250 million in 8 percent notes that mature on April 1. This debt will need to be refinanced before the due dates, the authority said Thursday.
So what are the overall implications for the Nutmeg State?
Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun are two of Connecticut’s largest employers and major sources of revenue to the state government. Both are members of the Chamber of Commerce of Eastern Connecticut. Chamber President and CEO Tony Sheridan declined to comment on the Sun’s finances Friday, saying he was still studying them.
What is there to study, exactly? The casinos are deep in debt, and unless there is a miraculous economic recovery they are soon going to have to declare bankruptcy. Looks like Chamber of Commerce President and CEO Tony Sheridan is about to find out what Las Vegas already knows: a gambling-based economy is only sustainable so long as the marks still have money in their pockets. As the old saying goes, you can't get blood out of a stone.

[PaceAdvantage]

It makes me wonder if the casino patrons are feeling the same economic pinch that the horseplayers have obviously been seriously affected by.

Nevada gaming revenue dropped almost 20% from 2008-2009...and has only just started to approach pre-recession levels...

[wiffleball whizz]

Sorry pace don't know how to post a link....I took out the name of the people who wrote the article if that helps.....if u google mohegan sun in debt tons of things will pop up......they are hurting big time certain parts of casino are shut down even on Saturdays

[PaceAdvantage]

Thanks...guess I somehow missed those articles on Mohegan Sun...makes sense that they would both be in trouble...

I guess free admission, free parking, free drinks and comped rooms isn't the key either...

[wiffleball whizz]

Thanks...guess I somehow missed those articles on Mohegan Sun...makes sense that they would both be in trouble...

I guess free admission, free parking, free drinks and comped rooms isn't the key either...

Don't know why but it always seemed like the sun got the NYC crowd and the woods got the Boston rhode island crowd....

As much as aqueduct and Yonkers hurt the sun the sands and parx hurt them too.....they offer deals to people from Chinatown such good cash backs nobody went to ct casinos they all go to parx and sands

Was talking to my ex who deals bbacarat at Foxwoods told me they closed one side of the Asian pit above the poker room....they went from 27 baccarat tables that u couldn't get a seat on in a $20 game to 12 or so tables with some $10 games...

Over saturation of casino gambling no casino is ever safe....when i go to Maryland live to work I was gonna be a shift manager but why risk it would make just as much if not more dealing poker and never worry about the casino laying off cus they only paying me $5 an hour....shift managers are first to go

[CincyHorseplayer]

Why the game doesn't grow handle?I saw it at the top and I didn't read it so I don't know.I've been reading WhiffleBallWhizz and he has the bug.I'm 40 years old and I have the bug.I remember being 23 years old and hearing those hooves pound.I clench my fists now with a "F**k yeah" thinking about it.The array of turf and stakes excite me.In a world of inconsistency and heartbreak the track is always there for you.Beckoning to win.Smoke that exacta.The place is always embracing.A smart man can show up on a whim with a single insight and bang the hell out of race and feel like the Ubermensch!This is better than the mafia.This thing of ours.WE win.Or we learn from each other.I've been taken to school plenty.Gladly so.This is a winning board here.No egos.All insight fearless.I dig it.I got hooked at 23 and I'm 40 now.Looking around in my own neighborhood the kids are starting to see the dope game is pointless.They want the fix that a smart man can take it down.5,000 poker games for rent money doesn't do it.Horses are starting to shine through.At least the way I present it.

[eqitec]

I must say as a long time horse player who 1) much prefers live racing and 2) has rarely attended live racing at the track in recent years, I thoroughly enjoyed a day at TAM in March. Why?
Because I could bet from my iPad from my seat directly into the track tote at the last second before the gates opened. Also, TAM had tech help available when needed, and they didn't block access to other info on the Internet including my own iPad handicapping app via a remote host.

Previously I was able to use my ADW from my seat at TAM, but the delay made the experience unpleasant. (By delay I mean that on track the horses were half way around the track while they were still entering the gate on the ADW site.)

This function of betting directly from mobile devices is not exclusive to TAM. I expect to attend in person more frequently at tracks which offer this service.
The only unpleasantness I had using this was a teller who, when I made my deposit to the track tote, could not answer a question except to say they didn't
know anything about it and didn't want to know anything about it because it was going to take their job away.

[jahura2]

This was posted on DRF recently. Definitely a positive step, and this does not include casino dollars.

"Total handle in 2012 on races at NYRA’s three tracks was up 11.9 percent, according to the financial documents, to $2.19 billion, or one-fifth of the national total on U.S. races in 2012. Ontrack handle was up 8 percent and simulcast handle up 13 percent. "

http://www.drf.com/news/new-york-racing-association-numbers-year

[wiffleball whizz]

This was posted on DRF recently. Definitely a positive step, and this does not include casino dollars.

"Total handle in 2012 on races at NYRA’s three tracks was up 11.9 percent, according to the financial documents, to $2.19 billion, or one-fifth of the national total on U.S. races in 2012. Ontrack handle was up 8 percent and simulcast handle up 13 percent. "

http://www.drf.com/news/new-york-racing-association-numbers-year

I specifically remember the day after the travers when stay thirsty won the next day we were buried by hurricane Irene....And the next week after that nobody had power damage to thier homes etc etc etc.....I know the spa was cancelled that next day and maybe even the Monday card as well

The 2011 Belmont was a washout tons of factors why the numbers spiked in 2012.....Atlantic city casinos will see a MASSIVE spike in October and November too this year in 2013.....they may be the most misleading numbers in the history of numbers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jahura2]

WW, I definitely understand your point and you support your stance well but its got to be tough being so gloomy all the time.
I just have to believe the game will survive. I cant look at it any other way.
Maybe a bit unrealistic and delusional but I want to play this game until the day they put me away and will support it any way I can.

[wiffleball whizz]

WW, I definitely understand your point and you support your stance well but its got to be tough being so gloomy all the time.
I just have to believe the game will survive. I cant look at it any other way.
Maybe a bit unrealistic and delusional but I want to play this game until the day they put me away and will support it any way I can.

Understand your view.....but trust me people that know me say im the most positive person anybody knows.....along with working in casino I also work helping new dealers learn the skills at various dealing schools so being positive is a trait I must have....

Over the years with the exception of the 2 women at the owners boxes at the meadowlands whose customer service is as good as anywhere I've ever been too I've had the notion that I feel like a outcast at the track

They do nothing but negative things to players tellers talk to you like your some 3rd grade student and they act like they are doing you a favors by putting in your bets....

There's a lot to be negative about when talking about racing

But I like racing so much I just let it go

[CincyHorseplayer]

Understand your view.....but trust me people that know me say im the most positive person anybody knows.....along with working in casino I also work helping new dealers learn the skills at various dealing schools so being positive is a trait I must have....

Over the years with the exception of the 2 women at the owners boxes at the meadowlands whose customer service is as good as anywhere I've ever been too I've had the notion that I feel like a outcast at the track

They do nothing but negative things to players tellers talk to you like your some 3rd grade student and they act like they are doing you a favors by putting in your bets....

There's a lot to be negative about when talking about racing

But I like racing so much I just let it go

Well I name dropped you in my last post.Your last line here makes that a total retraction.You are a self admitted buzz around idiot.I won't heap on the abuse.But you do dress like a target.You can thank me later.

[wiffleball whizz]

Well I name dropped you in my last post.Your last line here makes that a total retraction.You are a self admitted buzz around idiot.I won't heap on the abuse.But you do dress like a target.You can thank me later.

Hey I just tell it straight......why sit here on a forum full of the greatest horse players on this planet and talk like I'm the best handicapper in the planet for t-Breds when I can say I don't know that much and hopefully learn here from the best.......I'll gain nothing on this site acting like somebody I'm not....

I am a sitting duck on this board and get blitzkrieged on all angles but at the same time over the last month I've been posting here I've learned a lot about the flats I didnt know and used a little bit of it to not so much increase my wins but cut down on some bad habits I had in stupid bets I make.....very much worth it

[lamboguy]

i am going to tell you flat out what is wrong in this game. after speaking to a top harness trainer the other day, he told me the game has evolved into claiming horses from outfits or trainers that train the old fashioned way, the guys that give there horses time instead of medication to get them to go. he said he can claim from those guys and get those horses to run 3 seconds faster instantly. the game allows these things to happen and he is going to take advantage of them.

the purse money is so big these days that you can give horses everything under the sun to get them to go and still make a profit.

this way of doing things is not the greatest way to treat horses, but it does make people money.

in baseball when they catch a player on steroids, the first offense is 50 games without pay. in racing the trainer gets days but the horse runs under someone else's name and the owner still gets money. horse racing does not have 1 national commissioner running the game. the drug rules are different from state to state. this game will go nowhere here until there is some stiffer rules that come in no matter how much purse money they give away. fans of this game don't like watching drugged up horses running around in circles.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Hey I just tell it straight......why sit here on a forum full of the greatest horse players on this planet and talk like I'm the best handicapper in the planet for t-Breds when I can say I don't know that much and hopefully learn here from the best.......I'll gain nothing on this site acting like somebody I'm not....

I am a sitting duck on this board and get blitzkrieged on all angles but at the same time over the last month I've been posting here I've learned a lot about the flats I didnt know and used a little bit of it to not so much increase my wins but cut down on some bad habits I had in stupid bets I make.....very much worth it

You are important.I was you,once upon a time on that glorious day I heard hooves pounding and the snorts of will being applied.Your energy is undeniable.I want you to take it seriously because for every reason available the most important is you winning.I'm 40 and I feel like the young guy on here.I want it to burn your ears and supplant your disposition!This is a fun ass game and I see you so close to being the kick ass,takes names MF that represents.I dig your style bro.Embrace this game.Wholeheartedly.

[wiffleball whizz]

i am going to tell you flat out what is wrong in this game. after speaking to a top harness trainer the other day, he told me the game has evolved into claiming horses from outfits or trainers that train the old fashioned way, the guys that give there horses time instead of medication to get them to go. he said he can claim from those guys and get those horses to run 3 seconds faster instantly. the game allows these things to happen and he is going to take advantage of them.

the purse money is so big these days that you can give horses everything under the sun to get them to go and still make a profit.

this way of doing things is not the greatest way to treat horses, but it does make people money.

in baseball when they catch a player on steroids, the first offense is 50 games without pay. in racing the trainer gets days but the horse runs under someone else's name and the owner still gets money. horse racing does not have 1 national commissioner running the game. the drug rules are different from state to state. this game will go nowhere here until there is some stiffer rules that come in no matter how much purse money they give away. fans of this game don't like watching drugged up horses running around in circles.

In my opinion if u wanna stop drugs in racing if a horse tests positive instead of suspending the trainer which is usally a beard how bout suspending the horse for 6 months or a year.......the owner won't like the horse being on the sideline with a filth trainer........that will make real horsemen more relevant again and weed out the chemists......that would work

[Dave Schwartz]

Because I could bet from my iPad from my seat directly into the track tote at the last second before the gates opened. Also, TAM had tech help available when needed, and they didn't block access to other info on the Internet including my own iPad handicapping app via a remote host.

More tracks could learn from this.

[moneyandland]

i am going to tell you flat out what is wrong in this game. after speaking to a top harness trainer the other day, he told me the game has evolved into claiming horses from outfits or trainers that train the old fashioned way, the guys that give there horses time instead of medication to get them to go. he said he can claim from those guys and get those horses to run 3 seconds faster instantly. the game allows these things to happen and he is going to take advantage of them.

the purse money is so big these days that you can give horses everything under the sun to get them to go and still make a profit.

this way of doing things is not the greatest way to treat horses, but it does make people money.

in baseball when they catch a player on steroids, the first offense is 50 games without pay. in racing the trainer gets days but the horse runs under someone else's name and the owner still gets money. horse racing does not have 1 national commissioner running the game. the drug rules are different from state to state. this game will go nowhere here until there is some stiffer rules that come in no matter how much purse money they give away. fans of this game don't like watching drugged up horses running around in circles.

You're correct that this is one of the things wrong with the game to keeping players, but to get new ones there is no exposure at all, and is way behind in player amenities vs casinos

[thespaah]

Jeff was a lot more reserved than I would have been... :)
HANA chose the correct guy to be their spokes person.
Jeff was spot on in his comments. He also presented them in such a way so as to not dwell on the negative.
Tis easier to attract bees with honey than use vinegar.

[Stillriledup]

i am going to tell you flat out what is wrong in this game. after speaking to a top harness trainer the other day, he told me the game has evolved into claiming horses from outfits or trainers that train the old fashioned way, the guys that give there horses time instead of medication to get them to go. he said he can claim from those guys and get those horses to run 3 seconds faster instantly. the game allows these things to happen and he is going to take advantage of them.

the purse money is so big these days that you can give horses everything under the sun to get them to go and still make a profit.

this way of doing things is not the greatest way to treat horses, but it does make people money.

in baseball when they catch a player on steroids, the first offense is 50 games without pay. in racing the trainer gets days but the horse runs under someone else's name and the owner still gets money. horse racing does not have 1 national commissioner running the game. the drug rules are different from state to state. this game will go nowhere here until there is some stiffer rules that come in no matter how much purse money they give away. fans of this game don't like watching drugged up horses running around in circles.

I think there's a lot more to it than just giving the horses some magical, undetectable potion. I think that certain trainers, supertrainers if you will, spend a TON of money, time and effort on things that the smaller barn won't spend money on. The vet bill for the supertrainer could be really big, but the vet bill for the smaller outfit won't be as big.

A lot of it is just the new barn doing legal stuff, taking as many edges as they can, treating the horse like a renta horse and spending more money (which is passed onto the owner) so they can win at all costs.

While some supertrainers cheat with undetectable drugs, many do not and they're just doing everything possible within legal means of making that horse go a little bit faster than he did with the previous guy.

[Stillriledup]

In my opinion if u wanna stop drugs in racing if a horse tests positive instead of suspending the trainer which is usally a beard how bout suspending the horse for 6 months or a year.......the owner won't like the horse being on the sideline with a filth trainer........that will make real horsemen more relevant again and weed out the chemists......that would work

Owners "stick by' their suspended trainer because they know their guy is 'taking an egde' and when he comes back off suspension, the owner still wants that edge. These owners are in the game to earn money, not to have morals and give the horse to an oats and hay guy. This is why these supertrainers who get caught almost never lose a horse.

Its amazing how a trainer can 'break the rules' and not even have to worry about losing a client.

[thespaah]

i am going to tell you flat out what is wrong in this game. after speaking to a top harness trainer the other day, he told me the game has evolved into claiming horses from outfits or trainers that train the old fashioned way, the guys that give there horses time instead of medication to get them to go. he said he can claim from those guys and get those horses to run 3 seconds faster instantly. the game allows these things to happen and he is going to take advantage of them.

the purse money is so big these days that you can give horses everything under the sun to get them to go and still make a profit.

this way of doing things is not the greatest way to treat horses, but it does make people money.

in baseball when they catch a player on steroids, the first offense is 50 games without pay. in racing the trainer gets days but the horse runs under someone else's name and the owner still gets money. horse racing does not have 1 national commissioner running the game. the drug rules are different from state to state. this game will go nowhere here until there is some stiffer rules that come in no matter how much purse money they give away. fans of this game don't like watching drugged up horses running around in circles.
I believe there should be a national substance standard.
Yes, I realize there are state jurisdictional issues. Yes, I can only imagine trying to get racing commissioners of all the racing states to agree on something would probably resemble a person trying to herd house cats.
However, the integrity of the sport is the goal. And the consolidation of authority in certain areas would be key in presenting the notion that the game is on the up and up.