Harness handicapping advice needed...

[thaskalos]

With the deplorable state that thoroughbred racing finds itself in on mondays, tuesdays and wednesdays...I have been eyeing the standardbreds more and more; but I find that there is a shortage of handicapping works when it comes to harness racing.

I have read a little on the subject through the years...but cannot be sure if the information I have gathered is still relevant to today's game.

Some works are wonderfully detailed and precise, but seemingly dated...while other works appear simplistic and system-like.

What would you consider a good first step for a serious thoroughbred handicapper looking to expand his horizons?

I am not looking for ready-made answers, mind you. I am willing to work very hard...and I just need to be pointed in the right direction.

I want to ask particularly about a rather expensive book written by a man whom I respect immensely...which I bought some years ago. Barry Meadow's book..."Professional Harness Betting".

What is your opinion of this work?

Any help that I get from you here is greatly appreciated...and I thank you for it in advance.

[melman]

thaskalos---Bob Pandolfo's Modern Harness Handicapping. Up to date on how the game is today. I think you have posted some about Pandy's works before. This book is current and excellant which puts it in a class by itself. There was a recent thread in this harness section concerning Pandy's work. That thread speaks volumes.

http://www.amazon.com/TROTPICKS-Modern-Harness-Handicapping-ebook/dp/B008S1JU86/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1367800401&sr=1-3&keywords=bob+pandolfo

[Charlie]

Go to the trackmaster website where there are many Pandy articles on harness racing. And really, a good book for harness racing is Pandy's "Trotpicks". I believe you can order it at (www.trotpicks.com (http://www.trotpicks.com)). It's a very informative book and well worth the price.

[Overcall]

I've heard of Barry Meadows, but never read his book. A contemporary handicapper that contributes to this forum is Bob Pandalfo. He wrote a book recently and sell software of his methods. He's also a contributor to the USTA (United States Trotting Association), which is Harness racing's governing body. I say this not to promote his product, but to
suggest get help, opinions etc as you build your knowledge base. Sites like
http://www.drf.com/news/harness also have tout sheets free to read or download. Another freebee i look forward to every year, is the Trotting & Pacing Guide, currently at
http://www.ustrotting.com/trackside/tpg/tpg.cfm 300 pages of stats and history of the sport. Also (if you have a computer) read the pearls offered from Al Stanley
http://www.handicappingharness.com/al-stanley-sunday/ Also Pandycapping Archieves offered at the USTA. And a few others that someone here may remind us of.


Years ago I used to play the 'big' Tbred races, which are usually on a Saturday or Sunday.
Seattle Slew was 'the' 3YO that year. My theory was to bet the best against the best
and hope for the best. I wasn't interested in horses that were climbing the ladder to
make it to the Saturday feature, which begs the question; what do you mean by the deplorable
state of Mon through Wed racing? Again I could say the same (with some exceptions) is true
with harness. These races consists of newcommers climbing the ladder, old timers close to
retirement and for sale 'claimers' and so on.

As a Tbred person, you should have an easier time, then from HR to Tbreds. 99.9% of harness racing is at a distance of one mile. There are only four different oval sizes. And best of all, harness horses race more frequently, so you have more data points in a month than with the tbreds. It's astonishing to see horses that haven't raced in months, competing in the Breeders Cup!

I would start with the big tracks as it's more of a speed game, more like tBreds. On the smaller tracks, space it tight, and it's more of a trip handycapping puzzle.

Good Luck
It's a great game

[imofe]

I believe the best older book ( 1997 ) is Ron Roblin's The Thinking Man's Guide To Success At The Trotters. I have a copy of Barry's book and although I have a lot of respect for him, I did not find the book to be very helpful.

The big thing is that harness tracks are very different in how you can approach handicapping them. I would start with your local track and gradually keep an eye on other tracks. Try handicapping them without betting and see which tracks do well with your style. Good luck.

[wiffleball whizz]

Lately on the positive side Monday and Tuesday's are starting to be the "Saturdays" of racing ...many tracks are having there big races on these nights....great racing at Yonkers and usually Pocono has there best cards on Tuesday and Chester weds.....

I follow northfield alot on Monday or Tuesday and have noticed that numbers seldom come back short there so there is great value in my opinion....I like half mile racing and there are a few things I look for...

Can't stress enough the importance of improved post positions....lately I've been seeing horses with lines of 8-8-7-6-8-8 and they have no shot....I personally like when a horse has those posts then draws the 4 or 5 where this improved post Isnt to dramatic as if it was the rail....

Also another factor is horses with no go even miles.....love when horses throw in a no go race that show they didn't lose any ground during the race normally they become a huge factor in later starts....

And love betting against speed horses that draw in a race from the 9 or 2nd tier....horses always take money and have no shot

[wiffleball whizz]

Is telling a guy who is looking to invest time and money in betting harness who is bearding for banned trainers out of bounds here? Any book or system thaskalos can buy is a total waste if he isn't aware what exactly is going on behind the scenes......

Nobody says this is HP but why wouldn't u want members of this site having knowledge of banned trainers and how they are still training these horses behind a listed fake trainer?

I may be labeled as being stupid or moronic but I know what's going on in the harness scene and would like to not see posters on here get blindsided by beards and no name trainers that can shave 3 seconds off a horse.....

[Stillriledup]

Is telling a guy who is looking to invest time and money in betting harness who is bearding for banned trainers out of bounds here? Any book or system thaskalos can buy is a total waste if he isn't aware what exactly is going on behind the scenes......

Nobody says this is HP but why wouldn't u want members of this site having knowledge of banned trainers and how they are still training these horses behind a listed fake trainer?

I may be labeled as being stupid or moronic but I know what's going on in the harness scene and would like to not see posters on here get blindsided by beards and no name trainers that can shave 3 seconds off a horse.....

Thas is a thoroughbred handicapper and there's bearding in Thoroughbred racing also.

Here's my take on why this bearding stuff doesnt matter all that much.

Lets say that Super Trainer John Doe is kicked out of the game and his buddy, Joe Blow is the program trainer. "Joe Blow" is amazing, came out of nowhere, his horses all pace thru the wire while rebreaking and know no end to their miles.

What's the difference if the program says "Joe Blow" or "Joe Blow bearding for John Doe"?

As long as you know Joe Blow is amazing, what's the difference if he's a beard or not?

I know, its prefferable that the game is honest and there's NO bearding, but it is what it is and if you're a horseplayer with no inside knowledge and you're just betting off the program, it doesnt matter a heck of a lot which name is listed on the pgm, all that matters is if you know the relative talent of the horse, the rest of the stuff takes care of itself imo.

[wiffleball whizz]

Thas is a thoroughbred handicapper and there's bearding in Thoroughbred racing also.

Here's my take on why this bearding stuff doesnt matter all that much.

Lets say that Super Trainer John Doe is kicked out of the game and his buddy, Joe Blow is the program trainer. "Joe Blow" is amazing, came out of nowhere, his horses all pace thru the wire while rebreaking and know no end to their miles.

What's the difference if the program says "Joe Blow" or "Joe Blow bearding for John Doe"?

As long as you know Joe Blow is amazing, what's the difference if he's a beard or not?

I know, its prefferable that the game is honest and there's NO bearding, but it is what it is and if you're a horseplayer with no inside knowledge and you're just betting off the program, it doesnt matter a heck of a lot which name is listed on the pgm, all that matters is if you know the relative talent of the horse, the rest of the stuff takes care of itself imo.

I just think that you have to know whose who in betting harness....this game is all about trainers now....so many angles that used to apply are now obsolete....

What the problem is there is there certain trainers have so many beards a trainer with 12 starts at have a 3-4-2 line doesn't jump off the page like a 267 starts 83-47-37 that is all the same guy.....

Not to turn this into a debate but in my opinion if a horse tests positive instead of suspending the trainer which is irrelevant cuz they just get a beard why not suspend the horse for 90-180 days...that will solve the problems...

Thaskalos in my opinion that he thing that makes harness racing Good to bet on is that a horse doesn't have to look horrible to pay $50....

[Vinman]

I would recommend getting a monthly subscription the the Trackmaster Platinum plus program, which gives you unlimited program access for a flat monthly fee of $49.50 last time I checked. I get mine these days through the BRIS site....same exact product under the BRIS banner.

Keep an eye out for guaranteed P4 and P5 pools. I hit a P4 at Northfield on Monday, 4/8 for $5,427.30, one of just 3 winning tix in a pool of just over $18,000. Only reason I played is that I noticed there was a guaranteed P4 pool of $10,000.....on a Monday night. The winning mutuels were $4.80, $48, $9.60 and $3.00. Insane. A trotter that "couldn't lose" in leg 2 broke at the start and the 3/5 fave in leg 3 got beat by a 7/2. I spend $152 and almost didn't pull the trigger when I found out that the Northfield Pick 4 is a $1.00 minimum. Balmoral has a 50 cent Pick 5, which I'm now following for carryovers & guarantees. I like Balmoral because unlike the Big M, they have a passing lane.

The USTA has a "strategic wagering" program where they guarantee minimum P4 and P5 pools at selected tracks. Usually modest amounts like 5K or 10K, but when Northfield had a nice carryover last week they jumped the guarantee up to 40K. You can check for these pool guarantees at www.ustrotting.com.

One valuable tool of the USTA website is "Track Statistics", accessible via the "Entries & Results" section. You can get current stats on trainers, drivers & post positions for any Harness track using this feature. It's interesting to see how the "rail advantage" varies among the half mile tracks. Freehold is much more pronounced than Northfield and Maywood, for example.

Have fun.

Vinman

[badcompany]

Here's my take on why this bearding stuff doesnt matter all that much.

Lets say that Super Trainer John Doe is kicked out of the game and his buddy, Joe Blow is the program trainer. "Joe Blow" is amazing, came out of nowhere, his horses all pace thru the wire while rebreaking and know no end to their miles.

What's the difference if the program says "Joe Blow" or "Joe Blow bearding for John Doe"?



The difference is that it adds another unknown to the equation. As bettors, we want to know as much we can about a horse/race. I'd like to know exactly what drugs each horse is on and when they were administered, but, I'm not going to get that, am I?

With regard to betting harness because of the poor quality of thoroughbreds, that's like staying at a Motel 6 because you were unhappy with the conditions at the Hilton.

Harness racing is a dying game that exists because of slots welfare. When that stops, drivers and trainers will have to get day jobs. Under no circumstances would I recommend this game to anyone as anything other than an occasional pastime.

I play harness about 6 weeks a year, exclusively at Saratoga, as it gives me something to do, there, at night, besides drink.

[thaskalos]

With regard to betting harness because of the poor quality of thoroughbreds, that's like staying at a Motel 6 because you were unhappy with the conditions at the Hilton.



I should have been more precise; I don't mind the "low class" racing that takes place during the early part of week. It's the five and the six-horse fields that I can't stomach.

[Ray2000]

My advice (for what it's worth) is that the syndicates and robots have milked the T-Bred tracks to the point where they have now turned to the trotters, so stay away from pools where the probable payoffs are known at the time of placing the wagers. That means horizontal plays like Pic3, Pic4 and higher are Ok. And (if you can stomach the take-outs) the Trifecta and Superfecta pools offer some positive, combo-structured, bets. As Vinman has noted, CARRYOVERS are very important, cutting the take down to playable conditions. The races with guaranteed pool size is soso but it does bring in more newbies than sharpies.

Good Luck and Welcome to the Dark Side :)

[wiffleball whizz]

My advice (for what it's worth) is that the syndicates and robots have milked the T-Bred tracks to the point where they have now turned to the trotters, so stay away from pools where the probable payoffs are known at the time of placing the wagers. That means horizontal plays like Pic3, Pic4 and higher are Ok. And (if you can stomach the take-outs) the Trifecta and Superfecta pools offer some positive, combo-structured, bets. As Vinman has noted, CARRYOVERS are very important, cutting the take down to playable conditions. The races with guaranteed pool size is soso but it does bring in more newbies than sharpies.

Good Luck and Welcome to the Dark Side :)

The syndicates are so bad for the smaller harness tracks.....carryovers in my opinion are good at maywood and freehold.....like ray said the syndicates tend to leave the pick 3&4s alone...

As always us trotting usually gives pick 4 past performances for all strategic wagering betting pools

[Stillriledup]

I just think that you have to know whose who in betting harness....this game is all about trainers now....so many angles that used to apply are now obsolete....

What the problem is there is there certain trainers have so many beards a trainer with 12 starts at have a 3-4-2 line doesn't jump off the page like a 267 starts 83-47-37 that is all the same guy.....

Not to turn this into a debate but in my opinion if a horse tests positive instead of suspending the trainer which is irrelevant cuz they just get a beard why not suspend the horse for 90-180 days...that will solve the problems...

Thaskalos in my opinion that he thing that makes harness racing Good to bet on is that a horse doesn't have to look horrible to pay $50....

You should probably consider thinking more about the horses and their talent than the human element of the game. Don't let the humans 'psyche you out' its all about the horses. Create information thru replay watching, learn nuances of the horses, learn them inside and out and the more you know about the talent of the animals, the better off you will be.

You have the ability to watch Usain Bolt or Yohan Blake without knowing who their personal trainers are, right? You can watch their strides and how they race and who's training them is of no real consequence, right? Why than, can you not watch a horse race the same way and kind of 'ignore' the humans?

Other than massive trainer changes which we all take with a grain of salt, most horses have the same trainer they did the week before. If a horse retains the same trainer, isnt it more important to know more about the horse than who trains him?

[wiffleball whizz]

SRU this is true for the smaller caliber tracks but at Pocono Yonkers and Chester is ALL about the human element......between drivers and trainers that makes all the difference in the world.....there are times where horses become world beaters overnight......that can't be disputed

[mrroyboy]

Pandy's book and articles are your best way to learn. You can also read some good stuff at DRF harness. This is stuff from harness eye.

[Stillriledup]

SRU this is true for the smaller caliber tracks but at Pocono Yonkers and Chester is ALL about the human element......between drivers and trainers that makes all the difference in the world.....there are times where horses become world beaters overnight......that can't be disputed

Most trainers can't turn horses into world beaters overnight and most horses are racing with the same trainer they had the week before. If a horse isnt getting a trainer change, which most horses are not, the human element means nothing for that particular horse, its all about what the horse shows on tape. I disagree that the human element matters at all, if you don't have each horse rated properly and you made a mistake on the talent level of each horse, its pretty easy to convince yourself that you got 'taken' to the cleaners by some human being when in reality, its just probably you not knowing how talented the horse was to begin with.

[baconswitchfarm]

If the human element did not matter, the terrible guys would claim from the dope guys and continue to win. In harness, the human element means everything.

[Stillriledup]

If the human element did not matter, the terrible guys would claim from the dope guys and continue to win. In harness, the human element means everything.

But that's a lot of woulda, coulda shoulda.

Im not disputing that there's cheating going on and some trainers make horses go faster than others, but, the human element, as a handicapping angle, only comes into play with trainer changes, and since most horses arent getting trainer changes, you're left with your own personal ability to rate each horse as an athlete and gauge its chances in today's race.

When handicappers make bets and lose, they're not losing because the 'human element' beat them, they're losing because their information wasnt good enough, they either underrated or overrated the chances of certain horses in their races and that's why they got beat.

But, maybe we're talking about something completely different. Explain to me how the humans mean more than the horses.

[Vinman]

Carryover in Northfield Pick 4....$10,741 into tomorrow night. USTA may raise guarantee.

Vinman

[badcompany]

I should have been more precise; I don't mind the "low class" racing that takes place during the early part of week. It's the five and the six-horse fields that I can't stomach.

If that's the case, you're looking at Monticello, Yonkers and Northfield all of which race year 'round. They tend to have 8 and even 9 horse fields (NFLD). However, the 7 & 8 posts at these tracks win at a 5% or lower rate. So, from a win standpoint, those posts are basically irrelevant.

[baconswitchfarm]

But that's a lot of woulda, coulda shoulda.

Im not disputing that there's cheating going on and some trainers make horses go faster than others, but, the human element, as a handicapping angle, only comes into play with trainer changes, and since most horses arent getting trainer changes, you're left with your own personal ability to rate each horse as an athlete and gauge its chances in today's race.

When handicappers make bets and lose, they're not losing because the 'human element' beat them, they're losing because their information wasnt good enough, they either underrated or overrated the chances of certain horses in their races and that's why they got beat.

But, maybe we're talking about something completely different. Explain to me how the humans mean more than the horses.






Here is an easy way to figure if the human factor matters. Get someone to take your Yonkers and Pocono programs and black out all trainers , drivers , and former drivers. Now, continue betting these tracks. Save a newspaper. You will need it sleeping on that park bench. It is the wild west out there. The same drivers and trainers win all the races. The horses in these stables change, but the dope remains the same.

[PaceAdvantage]

Is telling a guy who is looking to invest time and money in betting harness who is bearding for banned trainers out of bounds here?Yeah, since it's more accusations with nothing but speculation to back it up...

[wiffleball whizz]

If that's the case, you're looking at Monticello, Yonkers and Northfield all of which race year 'round. They tend to have 8 and even 9 horse fields (NFLD). However, the 7 & 8 posts at these tracks win at a 5% or lower rate. So, from a win standpoint, those posts are basically irrelevant.

The 8-ball is basically a death sentence at Yonkers and northfield as far as half mile racing goes at maywood it's not as bad with the running start....at the same time the second tier is no picnic at maywood especially if outside blasts out....

Also the rail at harrahs Philly is death....the gate is severly angled to favor outside leavers....would bet my life Philly has the lowest rail percentage of all the 5/8ths tracks.....

The only thing I like about betting Pocono Phl and Yonkers is with huge purses and small pools it kind of hampers cheating in order to take out betting pools

[wiffleball whizz]

But that's a lot of woulda, coulda shoulda.

Im not disputing that there's cheating going on and some trainers make horses go faster than others, but, the human element, as a handicapping angle, only comes into play with trainer changes, and since most horses arent getting trainer changes, you're left with your own personal ability to rate each horse as an athlete and gauge its chances in today's race.

When handicappers make bets and lose, they're not losing because the 'human element' beat them, they're losing because their information wasnt good enough, they either underrated or overrated the chances of certain horses in their races and that's why they got beat.

But, maybe we're talking about something completely different. Explain to me how the humans mean more than the horses.

I'm gonna use the big 3 slot purse tracks as an example here....yr PcD and Phl...the human element trumps 90 percent of the racing there...between the whose who of beards which I wont get into but is so prevalent it can't be ignored...then you have driver changes that can mean 2 seconds in some cases....

You can't go into betting these 3 tracks with old school handicapping angles because your gonna get your teeth kicked in....pull up the last 20 lines on the horse "Oil Magnet"....here's a horse that was passed around a little bit and became one of Yonkers best horses....

At first I was upset what was going on with these tracks with human element dominating 90 percent of every aspect here but then I figure if I did my homework I may be able to make money...

These 3 tracks are for lack of a better term "chemical warfare" horses are shaving seconds off lifetime marks like there cotton candy and horses that look crippled on the track are cranking out miles that would bury some old invite half mile horses such as Easter sun Hanna and jate Lobell

Do we have to look at the embarrassment at the meadowlands the night Auckland reactor was making his first start in the USA and got totally blown out of the water by real joke?!???? That was I think the coming out party of these new super trainers...( again mentioning no names)...how could u handicap a horse taking 3 or 4 seconds off his mark....the average bettor never had a shot in that race....

I offered to help the people that are betting these tracks what's really going on behind the scenes namely showplace farms but pace advantage says I don't have the facts to back them up....it's his site and he makes the rules so of course I'll respect this......but just know u guys that are betting into these pools are at a huge disadvantage of people like me and my friend who is in the know of the bs that's going on....

Just to recap here if u bet this harness game thinking old school angles can be applied you will be looking for loose change under your couch cushions

[wiffleball whizz]

Here is an easy way to figure if the human factor matters. Get someone to take your Yonkers and Pocono programs and black out all trainers , drivers , and former drivers. Now, continue betting these tracks. Save a newspaper. You will need it sleeping on that park bench. It is the wild west out there. The same drivers and trainers win all the races. The horses in these stables change, but the dope remains the same.

Pocono downs jimmy morrill and George naps win 10 of the 16 every night...unless kakaly is driving for burke then it's a 3 way split with adrew McCarthy Pavia and mike Simons picking up the scraps....

Yonkers its all sears and brennan for the most part....

[PaceAdvantage]

but just know u guys that are betting into these pools are at a huge disadvantage of people like me and my friend who is in the know of the bs that's going on....Give us a little show one or two nights then. Create a thread (I know you know how) in the harness section and dazzle us with your picking profundity at a select "chem warfare" plant or two for a couple of nights this week...just to prove you can back up your claim...

[Vinman]

[QUOTE=Vinman]Carryover in Northfield Pick 4....$10,741 into tomorrow night. USTA may raise guarantee.

Vinman[/QUOTE

Because of the carryover, tonight's Northfield Pick 4 pool.guarantee has been bumped up to $40,000, per www.northfieldpark.com

[MainelyPace]

Yonkers its all sears and brennan for the most part....

While Sears and Brennan are definitely the top two drivers at Yonkers, this statement is just not true...Take a look at the stats from this past week for example: (Results from 4/30 to 5/6 @ Yonkers)

TUESDAY, APR 30
Carded Races: 12
Brennan Wins: 2 (Sears-Did Not Drive)
Rest of Field Wins: 10 (Bartlett, Holland, MacDonald-2 each)

THURSDAY, MAY 2
Carded Races: 11
Brennan Wins: 0 (Sears-Did Not Drive)
Rest of Field Wins: 11 (Kakaley, Dube-2 each)

FRIDAY, MAY 3
Carded Races: 11
Sears & Brennan Wins: 3 (Brennan-2, Sears-1)
Rest of Field Wins: 8 (Dube, Goodell-2 each)

SATURDAY, MAY 4
Carded Races: 11
Sears & Brennan Wins: 5 (Sears-3, Brennan-2)
Rest of Field Wins: 6 (Goodell-2)

MONDAY, MAY 6
Carded Races: 12
Sears & Brennan Wins: 3 (Sears-2, Brennan-1)
Rest of Field Wins: 9 (Macdonald-2)

WEEKLY TOTALS (4/30-5/6)
Carded Races: 57
Sears & Brennan Wins: 13 (22.8%), Sears-6 (10.5%), Brennan-7 (12.3%)
Rest of Field Wins: 44 (77.2%)

22.8% is certainly not a bad clip to be hitting at, but with the rest of the driving colony winning @ 77.2% it is hard to justify that Yonkers is "all Sears and Brennan."

[precisionk]

While Sears and Brennan are definitely the top two drivers at Yonkers, this statement is just not true...Take a look at the stats from this past week for example: (Results from 4/30 to 5/6 @ Yonkers)

TUESDAY, APR 30
Carded Races: 12
Brennan Wins: 2 (Sears-Did Not Drive)
Rest of Field Wins: 10 (Bartlett, Holland, MacDonald-2 each)

THURSDAY, MAY 2
Carded Races: 11
Brennan Wins: 0 (Sears-Did Not Drive)
Rest of Field Wins: 11 (Kakaley, Dube-2 each)

FRIDAY, MAY 3
Carded Races: 11
Sears & Brennan Wins: 3 (Brennan-2, Sears-1)
Rest of Field Wins: 8 (Dube, Goodell-2 each)

SATURDAY, MAY 4
Carded Races: 11
Sears & Brennan Wins: 5 (Sears-3, Brennan-2)
Rest of Field Wins: 6 (Goodell-2)

MONDAY, MAY 6
Carded Races: 12
Sears & Brennan Wins: 3 (Sears-2, Brennan-1)
Rest of Field Wins: 9 (Macdonald-2)

WEEKLY TOTALS (4/30-5/6)
Carded Races: 57
Sears & Brennan Wins: 13 (22.8%), Sears-6 (10.5%), Brennan-7 (12.3%)
Rest of Field Wins: 44 (77.2%)

22.8% is certainly not a bad clip to be hitting at, but with the rest of the driving colony winning @ 77.2% it is hard to justify that Yonkers is "all Sears and Brennan."

I agree. I think the statement can be changed to horses in posts 1,2,5 are winning for the most part.

[badcompany]

The Yonkers driving colony is as deep as I've ever seen it. While Sears is easily the best with Brennan #2, the second tier guys Bartlett, Dube, Holland, Stallbaum, Goodell and even Stratton are all capable of winning a race.

[wiffleball whizz]

Give us a little show one or two nights then. Create a thread (I know you know how) in the harness section and dazzle us with your picking profundity at a select "chem warfare" plant or two for a couple of nights this week...just to prove you can back up your claim...

Not a problem.......the whizzzzzzz will put on a half mile harness show that hasn't been seen since the day of Herve and Walter....of course it will be brick city if I put out a 13 card analysis

[Stillriledup]

I'm gonna use the big 3 slot purse tracks as an example here....yr PcD and Phl...the human element trumps 90 percent of the racing there...between the whose who of beards which I wont get into but is so prevalent it can't be ignored...then you have driver changes that can mean 2 seconds in some cases....

You can't go into betting these 3 tracks with old school handicapping angles because your gonna get your teeth kicked in....pull up the last 20 lines on the horse "Oil Magnet"....here's a horse that was passed around a little bit and became one of Yonkers best horses....

At first I was upset what was going on with these tracks with human element dominating 90 percent of every aspect here but then I figure if I did my homework I may be able to make money...

These 3 tracks are for lack of a better term "chemical warfare" horses are shaving seconds off lifetime marks like there cotton candy and horses that look crippled on the track are cranking out miles that would bury some old invite half mile horses such as Easter sun Hanna and jate Lobell

Do we have to look at the embarrassment at the meadowlands the night Auckland reactor was making his first start in the USA and got totally blown out of the water by real joke?!???? That was I think the coming out party of these new super trainers...( again mentioning no names)...how could u handicap a horse taking 3 or 4 seconds off his mark....the average bettor never had a shot in that race....

I offered to help the people that are betting these tracks what's really going on behind the scenes namely showplace farms but pace advantage says I don't have the facts to back them up....it's his site and he makes the rules so of course I'll respect this......but just know u guys that are betting into these pools are at a huge disadvantage of people like me and my friend who is in the know of the bs that's going on....

Just to recap here if u bet this harness game thinking old school angles can be applied you will be looking for loose change under your couch cushions


Ok, so, i completely understand that a trainer change to one of the few supertrainers in the sport might produce a vastly (and overnight) improved performance. But, most races, and certainly many horses, are not receiving any such change. Whether or not they're trained by a supertrainer certainly doesnt mean as much as if that horse is getting an actual trainer switch from its last race.

As far as 'old school angles' are concerned, my viewpoint is that its important to learn the horses and their talent thru careful replay watching, handicapping on paper, etc. I feel that its the only chance you have, is to treat horses as athletes and be highly concerned about how fast each horse has raced in the recent past.

I know that if i let human beings 'get into my head' i would have no chance. I'm not sure how you handicap humans while ignorning the horse.

To me, the humans are bit players, a small part of a larger puzzle.

[am1947]

http://www.kimstarr.org/corner/archives.html

several topics of interest can be found here.

AM

[wiffleball whizz]

Ok, so, i completely understand that a trainer change to one of the few supertrainers in the sport might produce a vastly (and overnight) improved performance. But, most races, and certainly many horses, are not receiving any such change. Whether or not they're trained by a supertrainer certainly doesnt mean as much as if that horse is getting an actual trainer switch from its last race.

As far as 'old school angles' are concerned, my viewpoint is that its important to learn the horses and their talent thru careful replay watching, handicapping on paper, etc. I feel that its the only chance you have, is to treat horses as athletes and be highly concerned about how fast each horse has raced in the recent past.

I know that if i let human beings 'get into my head' i would have no chance. I'm not sure how you handicap humans while ignorning the horse.

To me, the humans are bit players, a small part of a larger puzzle.

Just to clarify what I was talking about this morning I made it clear that this is a human element game at the big 3 racinos....3 starts back at Yonkers with Pete pelligrino(not a bad horsemen by any stretch) scotty c from the rail goes the mile in 155.3.......tonight from the 5 with new barn goes in 152.2.....in a death grip under wraps......

U can't handicap these things......I just hope maybe what I'm saying tonight is opening people's eyes a little cus what they are doing to these animals isnt fair

Trivia: Gil Garcia Herrera who popped this horse 3 seconds faster was the parter with about 18 horses from cal expo with who????? Any guesses??

[Vinman]

Just to clarify what I was talking about this morning I made it clear that this is a human element game at the big 3 racinos....3 starts back at Yonkers with Pete pelligrino(not a bad horsemen by any stretch) scotty c from the rail goes the mile in 155.3.......tonight from the 5 with new barn goes in 152.2.....in a death grip under wraps......

U can't handicap these things......I just hope maybe what I'm saying tonight is opening people's eyes a little cus what they are doing to these animals isnt fair

Trivia: Gil Garcia Herrera who popped this horse 3 seconds faster was the parter with about 18 horses from cal expo with who????? Any guesses??

Must be a reference to that training "icon" Lou Pena. Tonight's Pick 4 pool at Northfield topped out at $55,450.

Vinman

[Stillriledup]

Just to clarify what I was talking about this morning I made it clear that this is a human element game at the big 3 racinos....3 starts back at Yonkers with Pete pelligrino(not a bad horsemen by any stretch) scotty c from the rail goes the mile in 155.3.......tonight from the 5 with new barn goes in 152.2.....in a death grip under wraps......

U can't handicap these things......I just hope maybe what I'm saying tonight is opening people's eyes a little cus what they are doing to these animals isnt fair

Trivia: Gil Garcia Herrera who popped this horse 3 seconds faster was the parter with about 18 horses from cal expo with who????? Any guesses??

But that was exactly my point....concentrate on the races where there are no barn changes, worry about horsepower and get the humans out of your brain...they're psyching you out.

Horses will explode off barn changes quite often....this is something you can factor into your handicapping, but if there's no barn change from a dummy to a supertrainer, its really just you against them and whoever knows the HORSES better will win.

[wiffleball whizz]

Must be a reference to that training "icon" Lou Pena. Tonight's Pick 4 pool at Northfield topped out at $55,450.

Vinman

Ding ding ding!!!!!!!

And yes the nfld pool was tremendous.....what does that tell you....people would rather bet the rats at northfield that are semi-formful that bet the that gassed up place at Yonkers....17k there 55k at nfld....nfld constantly out handles Yonkers

[PaceAdvantage]

Not a problem.......the whizzzzzzz will put on a half mile harness show that hasn't been seen since the day of Herve and Walter....of course it will be brick city if I put out a 13 card analysisNot looking for analysis...just winners...

[PaceAdvantage]

I just hope maybe what I'm saying tonight is opening people's eyes a little cus what they are doing to these animals isnt fairTheir eyes were opened a long time ago. You can't pay attention to this sport for more then 2 minutes without realizing the obvious.

So I think you're preaching a bit to the choir here...unless they are just stating out...and I mean real novices...

[SchagFactorToWin]

Not a problem.......the whizzzzzzz will put on a half mile harness show that hasn't been seen since the day of Herve and Walter....of course it will be brick city if I put out a 13 card analysis

I play Yonkers, have since 2009, every day. My handicapping doesn't consider trainers or drivers. For everyone who is now saying to themselves that I must be living in a cardboard box, I would put my results up against anyone.

Now, Whizz, I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right. But I was thinking that this would be a great challenge opportunity. It could be fun and informative to compare the results of your 'people' oriented method with my strict numbers method. Interested?

[wiffleball whizz]

I play Yonkers, have since 2009, every day. My handicapping doesn't consider trainers or drivers. For everyone who is now saying to themselves that I must be living in a cardboard box, I would put my results up against anyone.

Now, Whizz, I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right. But I was thinking that this would be a great challenge opportunity. It could be fun and informative to compare the results of your 'people' oriented method with my strict numbers method. Interested?

Am I interested lolololololololo......I was born interested but I would only put my friends and I picks up on a Monday and Tuesday....I would think its impossible that the cardboard box you say u live in your numbers would beat my Friend and I......

I'm sorry I'm only available basically on tues and the occasion Monday and thur....I hate myself for not staring out on day shift when I started working for rotten casinos....

Let's get it on!!!!!!!! It should be fun

[wiffleball whizz]

I just think handicapping Yonkers on Monday and Tuesday is pretty much acient history.....Scotty c in the first race last night was glowing in the dark he was so fired/fueled/gassed/juiced/injected/performance inhanced/up....and I'm not making jokes or trying to be funny about this......

These are living animals that are being used and abused by these guys that is being fueled by the obsurd slot money that these horsemen don't deserve...the betting pools don't warrent these pools....

Why can't before they put all this money into a purse accounts can't they get the best drug testing protocol Money can by by the state...

The only things suffering from these huge purses are the horses....it's killing and hurting them.....and it crosses over to the AQU breakdowns....

Look at the 4 in the race before the last at yr last night...Garcia herreras horse... Looked like he was a staggering drunk and very lean.....not cool

[mrroyboy]

Argue all you want guys. A good handicapper will use both numbers and (people.

[MainelyPace]

Argue all you want guys. A good handicapper will use both numbers and (people.

Sensible, to me anyways. Some may go strictly on numbers but there is a certain "human" (non-juicing) element to them anyways. If a trainer is good off the claim, then you are using the human element combined with numbers. Gotta know the name to know who the numbers apply to...

Of course, I suppose you could always find ways to filter or black names out of the equation, but that sounds like a hassle to me.

In the end we all have our own methods, and will find disagreements as a result. Where we have to be united is in our stand against those responsible for juicing, as they have caused significant damage to our sport.

[traynor]

Sensible, to me anyways. Some may go strictly on numbers but there is a certain "human" (non-juicing) element to them anyways. If a trainer is good off the claim, then you are using the human element combined with numbers. Gotta know the name to know who the numbers apply to...

Of course, I suppose you could always find ways to filter or black names out of the equation, but that sounds like a hassle to me.

In the end we all have our own methods, and will find disagreements as a result. Where we have to be united is in our stand against those responsible for juicing, as they have caused significant damage to our sport.

It seems sometimes that it might be more useful to accept the world as it is, rather than how we want it to be. Advantage can as easily be gained in a world filled with lies, deception, and trickery as it can in a world filled with honesty and transparency. I kind of like horse racing the way it is. It sure makes my life a lot easier.

[LottaKash]

It seems sometimes that it might be more useful to accept the world as it is, rather than how we want it to be. Advantage can as easily be gained in a world filled with lies, deception, and trickery as it can in a world filled with honesty and transparency. I kind of like horse racing the way it is. It sure makes my life a lot easier.

Yes, I believe I know exactly how one could come to that end-game thinking....These days, I tend to gravitate to that way of thinking as well...

I guess one could say that I have surrendered to "today's" reality of horse racing...No breed in particular, at that....

I have moved on and I am still doing ok....so far....:D

Where will racing go, who's to say, but I'm still in....Despite the scumbags like "LouPena", of the racing world...

[PaceAdvantage]

Am I interested lolololololololo......I was born interested but I would only put my friends and I picks up on a Monday and Tuesday....I would think its impossible that the cardboard box you say u live in your numbers would beat my Friend and I......

I'm sorry I'm only available basically on tues and the occasion Monday and thur....I hate myself for not staring out on day shift when I started working for rotten casinos....

Let's get it on!!!!!!!! It should be funCan't wait to see the results.

[wiffleball whizz]

Can't wait to see the results.

Whizz 1/9 in that matchup....2.10 2.10 2.10

But in all honestly I'm hoping that this other guy is good and I learn a few things....never do I take the attitude of I know everything....

[PaceAdvantage]

But in all honestly I'm hoping that this other guy is good and I learn a few things....never do I take the attitude of I know everything....No, not everything...but enough that it made me want to call you out to show your stuff...something I NEVER do around here...

[wiffleball whizz]

Whizz 1/9 in that matchup....2.10 2.10 2.10

But in all honestly I'm hoping that this other guy is good and I learn a few things....never do I take the attitude of I know everything....

Don't want to start another thread cuz the pace master says "he knows I know how to start a thread" :lol: :lol: :lol: so I'm gonna keep it in this thread since its a harness thread....

Tuesady night at Pocono in the 7th race I like the 9 he's 9/5 and the 1 is 2/1....2 min to post my father calls me from otb and asks me if I like anything I say yes I like the 9 then he asks with who else I tell him I'm going 1,9/2458/1245689..... Bet costs me 20 for .50 and I repeat it....

He tells me to trim the fat for him I say ok the 5 is getting bet strong so go 9/158/158 he does this for $6 so the ticket cost $36 then goes $2 tri 9/58/1568.....

So this tri comes in like a trip hammer and I got it for a measly ugly pathetic $1 he somehow backdoors it for 12......now he was at track with his girlfried having dinner at the Woodbridge otb cashing in his derby tri so life is good for him he's clicking on all cylinders and as soon as it comes in 9/5/8 at Pocono my phone rings.....Here's the conversation:

Father: did the 8 get second?

Me: not sure it's close I don't think it matters

Him: we'll I got this for $8 in total....what can it pay?

Me: we'll it's Pocono with the high takeout I'd be happy with 200

Him: that would be nice

They post the results it pays 9/5 11/1 8/1 comes back $910 for a Duece I fall out of the chair literally....


He calls me up saying how the tv is messed up and it can't pay that but it did....so in out getting breakfast in the morning then it dawns on me.....him having it for $8 he took out 3600 out of this minute pool!!!!!!

So he's my father and I call him telling him he cost my about 1500 cuz the pool was 9200 but he didn't wanna hear it Hahahahahahaha he said he has his own problems but thanks for telling him

So that gets me to thinking did anybody ever give a horse out to anybody and it come back to cost u money....

Remember at freehold about 6 years ago I gave my friend the 8 horse knew if things went good he would be a factor at 10/1 morning line and he wins and pays $42 and the pool was about 1400 pathetic I know and each ticket was like $721 and guess who I see doing paper work at the window!?!?!? He said he liked the 8 anyway hahahaha my ass I tell him I saw he bet the same thing I did....

It cost me 700 by giving him a horse....did anybody else ever have this issues?

[baconswitchfarm]

That is why I don't give out horses. When you bet harness for a living , the pools are just to small to help others. It would cost me every time. It is more important for my wife to eat than to prove to people on here how sharp I am. But I do enjoy watching guys argue on here about what is the right way to win in between their work shifts at jobs.

[PaceAdvantage]

That is why I don't give out horses. When you bet harness for a living , the pools are just to small to help others. It would cost me every time. It is more important for my wife to eat than to prove to people on here how sharp I am. But I do enjoy watching guys argue on here about what is the right way to win in between their work shifts at jobs.You honestly think that one or two days or even a week's worth of picks posted here is going to impact your bottom line that much?

The BIG bettors aren't going to be betting your picks, unless by sheer coincidence (which means they'd be on your pick whether you post them here or not), and the small betters won't make an impact. So how exactly is this going to cause your wife to starve?

[baconswitchfarm]

You honestly think that one or two days or even a week's worth of picks posted here is going to impact your bottom line that much?

The BIG bettors aren't going to be betting your picks, unless by sheer coincidence (which means they'd be on your pick whether you post them here or not), and the small betters won't make an impact. So how exactly is this going to cause your wife to starve?


This isn't thoroughbred racing. This is harness. When we say small pools we mean it. Twenty to win by ten different small bettors can kill a horses price in this game at most tracks. That is why big bettors don't give out picks.

Second, it is impossible for me to know what I am going to bet six hours to post. I like all the horses until I see the tote. That is why all public handicappers have favorites. Until you know the prices you have no clue what you will bet. If I give you horses that will win for sure , they will be short priced. I think people are capable of finding the chalk on their own.

[thaskalos]

Very small pools.

I used to bet Hoosier harness because I liked the long stretch...and was often mystified by the payoffs, especially on trifecta wagers.

And then I saw the pool sizes...and my mouth dropped to the floor.

[wiffleball whizz]

You honestly think that one or two days or even a week's worth of picks posted here is going to impact your bottom line that much?

The BIG bettors aren't going to be betting your picks, unless by sheer coincidence (which means they'd be on your pick whether you post them here or not), and the small betters won't make an impact. So how exactly is this going to cause your wife to starve?

With very small pools yes indeed it can impact your bottom line.....2 examples I gave is a great indicator:....I said my father backdoored the tri for 12 but was 8 and he took out 3600 of a 9000 pool what if he wasn't at the track that night?!?! My number comes back a lot more not sure exactly how much though....

And with small pick 3 pools like freehold if one person copy's your ticket you automatically have no shot of taking out the pool....and with the small Pools it's common not for me but for somebody tO take out the Pool which is usually between 1500-2400 exept Saturdays.....
These shall tracks aren't like saratoga keeneland and delmar where Pools can't be dented these Pools can be destroyed in a second by people

[wiffleball whizz]

Very small pools.

I used to bet Hoosier harness because I liked the long stretch...and was often mystified by the payoffs, especially on trifecta wagers.

And then I saw the pool sizes...and my mouth dropped to the floor.

Hoosier is good for big exacta boxes or keys....the .50 tri are ok but the p3 and p4s are stupid so many times they have a pick3 pick 4 and double starting in same race....I don't follow this track for pick 3a and 4s but im sure they still do it...

As for watching races on simulcast tv it's hard to make out colors there and they also have the saddle cloth number smaller then usual cus the my have the race number next too it.......again disregard by the tracks for the bettors it's strictly done to save money on 2 saddle cloth sets they don't want to wash them I really hate tracks that do that.....Pocono/freehold now/ think hazel too

[DeanT]

Interesting thread. Some may be interested what thoroughbred players think of harness racing, and why don't they play it more.

HRU looked at it today (pdf) w/ notes from guys like Mike Maloney and a few others we know from the board here.


http://www.harnessracingupdate.com/restricted/pdf/hru/hru051113.pdf

[Stillriledup]

You honestly think that one or two days or even a week's worth of picks posted here is going to impact your bottom line that much?

The BIG bettors aren't going to be betting your picks, unless by sheer coincidence (which means they'd be on your pick whether you post them here or not), and the small betters won't make an impact. So how exactly is this going to cause your wife to starve?

He should give out a weeks worth of picks, cause a scene, be great, get a reputation as the best harness handicapper on here and then pick his spots to release horses he hates when they are in against his best bet of the day after he's created a rep of being the best. He can recoup all his wife's food in no time! :D

[wiffleball whizz]

If this thread is becoming a general harness discussion thread can somebody please watch the 11th race at cal expo.... Got out of work early and got to Racebook at 1130.....

Race 11 the 9 horse is literally coming like a express train on the outside rail literally the as far outside as you can get and they hit the wire together it looks like the 9 nails him easy but the wire is off and if horses are even the inside horse should win....

5-7 min photo then they put up the 9.....now I know the photo finish camera can't show tha photo with the horse scraping outside rail so why don't the judges just come out and say it.....

And of course the photo was never shown...

[traynor]

He should give out a weeks worth of picks, cause a scene, be great, get a reputation as the best harness handicapper on here and then pick his spots to release horses he hates when they are in against his best bet of the day after he's created a rep of being the best. He can recoup all his wife's food in no time! :D

That sounds like Vinnie Teresa in the old days at Rockingham Park.

[PaceAdvantage]

If this thread is becoming a general harness discussion thread can somebody please watch the 11th race at cal expo.... Got out of work early and got to Racebook at 1130.....

Race 11 the 9 horse is literally coming like a express train on the outside rail literally the as far outside as you can get and they hit the wire together it looks like the 9 nails him easy but the wire is off and if horses are even the inside horse should win....

5-7 min photo then they put up the 9.....now I know the photo finish camera can't show tha photo with the horse scraping outside rail so why don't the judges just come out and say it.....

And of course the photo was never shown...I love it when you do stuff like this...is that how it works at HP?

[wiffleball whizz]

I love it when you do stuff like this...is that how it works at HP?

Haven't been logged on HP is 36 days....don't need to read racist posts along with total nonsense......I'm just asking how they determined a winner on a finish that the photo finish camera can't possible separate due to the length apart of the finish....I would just like somebody's take on this....

How do u determine the winner of a parimutuel race if the photo finish camera is operational?!?!????

And back to the thread at hand does anybody have any opinion on the letter classifications at cal expo? It's a tuff track to bet with nobody shipping in or shipping out

[PaceAdvantage]

Haven't been logged on HP is 36 days....don't need to read racist posts along with total nonsense......Nice way to dodge the question...

[wiffleball whizz]

Nice way to dodge the question...

Ok I'll give the HP response to this.....I'm livid cuz my $32 pick 4 ticket got run over!!!!

HP is for morons and racists.....I feel like I'm in a higher class of people in this site :lol:

To compare HP with PA in terms of racing venues PA is millionaires row on derby day and HP is like the downstairs grandstand at the meadowland.....as accurate a statement that will ever be made on this site

[precisionk]

Haven't been logged on HP is 36 days....don't need to read racist posts along with total nonsense......I'm just asking how they determined a winner on a finish that the photo finish camera can't possible separate due to the length apart of the finish....I would just like somebody's take on this....

How do u determine the winner of a parimutuel race if the photo finish camera is operational?!?!????

And back to the thread at hand does anybody have any opinion on the letter classifications at cal expo? It's a tuff track to bet with nobody shipping in or shipping out


You will want to watch the Cal Expo horses as they ship from Cal to Running Aces this month. They also tend to ship to Pompano Park. Shipping back, they will, after Running Aces meet.

[wiffleball whizz]

You will want to watch the Cal Expo horses as they ship from Cal to Running Aces this month. They also tend to ship to Pompano Park. Shipping back, they will, after Running Aces meet.

Yes great call.....totally forgot that cal expo and running aces is a curcuit....for those that don't know it's a curcuit that involves sacremento ca and forest hills minnesota....when expo close for 3 months or so every heads east to Aces5/8.....drivers horses trainers they lease a lot of the horses too....that I don't understand

[camfella]

THE ORIGINAL QUESTIONS-I would watch all the tracks,but wager on tracks offering 10 horse fields, I would spend a month,program in hand, replays on. I think any t-bred guy could figure out what is going on. The horses race weekly,and follow form cycles, drivers and trainers do matter, but watch the stats page to see who is hot. In the beginning ,I would follow certain small trainers(that you pick out), this gives you the abilility to compare and contrast. Form your own stable of horses,follow and compare. eventually a few will stand out as good plays. Follow drivers who seem to get the power drives, but dont overlook the up and coming drivers, or competent drivers who seem to struggle getting power drives. Initially ,I would use TM ratings as a class,and speed reference, keeping in mind that the speed rating is always higher in the higher class races, rating are usually overstated on smaller tracks (I think the track ratings are off kilter) but you can deal with that, an 80 rating may be equal to a 78 at another track, the patterns can be seen in the past performances,as ship ins usually come from the same tracks. After test runs, I would concentrate on race conditions and types that you seem to get good results, the most exciting part will be when you start to identify overlays on horse that you see coming up to a good races, watch the people and the horses, every trainer is looking for an easy spot,and every driver will strike when he has the power.

[David Siegel]

wiffleball whizz (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/member.php?u=137726)

Whiffleball Whizz - This is probably the first time you get a reply on a topic almost literally from the horses Mouth. This is about the Cal Expo race you mentioned (Race 11 on Saturday May 11th). The horse on the outside, Sun On The Rocks, often drifts way out down the lane. If there was no rail, the driver could pick up a hot dog on the way :). I had an interesting view. I was the guy driving the horse on the rail (Notable Intension). I saw that horse coming (even though it was in the 10 path) and drove hard. I knew it was very, very close, but my gut told me he beat me. In fact, I turned my horse after the race and sent the groom back to the barn believing I had lost. I watched the replay waiting for the official decision and then it looked very close, but most of the time, the drivers know who won when we cross the wire. Usually, the photo is shown and I was surprised it was not. So, if I have time, I am going to go to the photo-finish booth tomorrow and ask if I can see the photo. The angle can really be deceiving and this one was really whacky given I was in the 1 path and Lackey (the other driver) was in the 10 path. Hopefully, I will be able to report back what I find out. As long as the thread remains objective and civil, I am happy to answer questions about such things and your point is a good one.

[mrroyboy]

On behalf of all the regulars on this site, thank you for your answer. You taking the time to do that shows respect and we will remember.

[wiffleball whizz]

wiffleball whizz (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/member.php?u=137726)

Whiffleball Whizz - This is probably the first time you get a reply on a topic almost literally from the horses Mouth. This is about the Cal Expo race you mentioned (Race 11 on Saturday May 11th). The horse on the outside, Sun On The Rocks, often drifts way out down the lane. If there was no rail, the driver could pick up a hot dog on the way :). I had an interesting view. I was the guy driving the horse on the rail (Notable Intension). I saw that horse coming (even though it was in the 10 path) and drove hard. I knew it was very, very close, but my gut told me he beat me. In fact, I turned my horse after the race and sent the groom back to the barn believing I had lost. I watched the replay waiting for the official decision and then it looked very close, but most of the time, the drivers know who won when we cross the wire. Usually, the photo is shown and I was surprised it was not. So, if I have time, I am going to go to the photo-finish booth tomorrow and ask if I can see the photo. The angle can really be deceiving and this one was really whacky given I was in the 1 path and Lackey (the other driver) was in the 10 path. Hopefully, I will be able to report back what I find out. As long as the thread remains objective and civil, I am happy to answer questions about such things and your point is a good one.

Thank you very much Dave for your response here......For people who don't follow cal expo David is no stranger to lighting up the board and can drive with anybody at expo when given the horsepower.....

That night was the first night I bet expo in over a year cuz I work that time now and never have the chance to bet it anymore but used to all the time and I felt I could always calls a wire shot with the best of them there....

In my opinion this finish stunk the way they showed the finish 5 times from the pan shot or regular camera high up and how they kept showing the ground shot from the camera I guess right by the wire on the ground more then 3 times....which they never do....

Now I noticed the camera there is pretty much dead on and this was tight but I think for a fact u hung on in this race....but either way what the judges did was not right......

David u didn't see a photo because one could not be taken with the distances apart....and when u do see photos when there far apart the photos are a different quality they don't zoom in with the horses noses they show a photo with the whole bodies of horse in photo which isn't accurate.....

When u go tnrw for the Friday card i would demand answers!!!!! Sometimg isn't adding up here and at the very least us players deserve to see a photo and if they do release a photo it won't be one of the ones where u see just the horses heads ur gonn see a whole track photo Abd it's bull.....

Thanks Dave for your detailed response so far and look forward to hearing back on this situation......best of luck driving this weekend!!!! :ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

The judges should have Just said due to the obscure finish of race the photo couldn't be taken and we have to make a judgment call.....they just post up the numbers and hope it would blow over.....well it's not just gonna blow over

[wiffleball whizz]

wiffleball whizz (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/member.php?u=137726)

Whiffleball Whizz - This is probably the first time you get a reply on a topic almost literally from the horses Mouth. This is about the Cal Expo race you mentioned (Race 11 on Saturday May 11th). The horse on the outside, Sun On The Rocks, often drifts way out down the lane. If there was no rail, the driver could pick up a hot dog on the way :). I had an interesting view. I was the guy driving the horse on the rail (Notable Intension). I saw that horse coming (even though it was in the 10 path) and drove hard. I knew it was very, very close, but my gut told me he beat me. In fact, I turned my horse after the race and sent the groom back to the barn believing I had lost. I watched the replay waiting for the official decision and then it looked very close, but most of the time, the drivers know who won when we cross the wire. Usually, the photo is shown and I was surprised it was not. So, if I have time, I am going to go to the photo-finish booth tomorrow and ask if I can see the photo. The angle can really be deceiving and this one was really whacky given I was in the 1 path and Lackey (the other driver) was in the 10 path. Hopefully, I will be able to report back what I find out. As long as the thread remains objective and civil, I am happy to answer questions about such things and your point is a good one.

Dave any word on what happened last week or is cal expo pretty much just gonna hope this blows over with the end of the meet approaching?!??

[David Siegel]

As promised, I spoke with one of the judges. He told me that a photo was "produced" and that the outside horse was clearly the winner based on the photo. The photo was in fact taken and viewed (by the judges). There were two failures though - one was that a hard-copy print-out of the photo was unobtainable (the printer failed), and the other was that the mechanism to put up for the public what the judges saw on their monitors failed. I have no reason to doubt the veracity of what the judge told me. Like I think I said earlier, I thought I was beat when I crossed, so the result was consistent with my belief. I am also not surprised at the equipment malfunctions given the age and quality of it (Cal-Expo does not own this equipment, it is contracted out to a 3rd party). The judge also told me that had the photo system (and its back-up) failed entirely and all that they had to go on was what they saw and the video, that a dead-heat would have been declared. My experience with the judge I spoke to is that he is straight-forward and honest, so I believe this explanation. I would have liked to have seen the photo itself just to know how much I lost by, but if I had to guess, it was a head.

[wiffleball whizz]

As promised, I spoke with one of the judges. He told me that a photo was "produced" and that the outside horse was clearly the winner based on the photo. The photo was in fact taken and viewed (by the judges). There were two failures though - one was that a hard-copy print-out of the photo was unobtainable (the printer failed), and the other was that the mechanism to put up for the public what the judges saw on their monitors failed. I have no reason to doubt the veracity of what the judge told me. Like I think I said earlier, I thought I was beat when I crossed, so the result was consistent with my belief. I am also not surprised at the equipment malfunctions given the age and quality of it (Cal-Expo does not own this equipment, it is contracted out to a 3rd party). The judge also told me that had the photo system (and its back-up) failed entirely and all that they had to go on was what they saw and the video, that a dead-heat would have been declared. My experience with the judge I spoke to is that he is straight-forward and honest, so I believe this explanation. I would have liked to have seen the photo itself just to know how much I lost by, but if I had to guess, it was a head.

Thanks Dave for your more then detailed response I really like the detail you provided.....just weird the next race in the open the photo was fine and working!!!!

For the record the USTA had it listed as a neck win an hour after the race.....have no clue where they came up with that figure!!!!