Churchill Downs ontrack superfecta minimum bet Derby Day

[cnollfan]

Years ago Churchill Downs had a $1 minimum superfecta ontrack on Oaks and Derby Day. Is this still the case or has it been adjusted to 10 cents?

[_______]

Years ago Churchill Downs had a $1 minimum superfecta ontrack on Oaks and Derby Day. Is this still the case or has it been adjusted to 10 cents?

Unless it changed recently, it's still $1.

[Midnight Cruiser]

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/pricci-not-offering-dime-supers-at-derby-and-oaks-costing-churchill-downs-money/

this was from last year, but I cant find anything to show they will offer anything other that dollar supers this year

[cnollfan]

Thanks.

[Leparoux]

I could live with 50 cent supers but hope 10 cent stays away. Lines are miserable enough on Derby day.

[Stillriledup]

Im not sure why Churchill does not have 10 cent supers for the derby...maybe they don't want to hold up the lines for ontrack patrons?

If this is the actual reason, why can't ADW's accept dime supers? Its not like i'm going to hold up any lines from my living room. This makes no sense that at-home bettors can't have access to dime supers.

But, then again, its the racing industry where very little makes sense.

[netbet]

I heard earlier this week that it will be a $1 minimum. They don't want to offer the $.10 play since bettors would be holding up the lines making a bunch of small ticket wagers.

[depalma113]

I heard earlier this week that it will be a $1 minimum. They don't want to offer the $.10 play since bettors would be holding up the lines making a bunch of small ticket wagers.

Or in other words, they don't want to hire more people.

[LAP_520]

On Kentucky Oaks race day and Kentucky Derby race day the minimum superfecta will be $1.00 for both On-track and off track and ADW's.

Because that is the way the host track ... Churchill, wants it. :rolleyes:

[Leparoux]

Or in other words, they don't want to hire more people.
Not true at all. If you've ever been in a betting line on Derby day then you would understand. Throw 10 cent super into the mix and it would be miserable.

[LAP_520]

I bet the 10 cent superfectas on occasion.....some of them get up to over $12. a ticket.

However, on Oaks and Derby race days at Churchill... /if I do play superfectas. the $1 minimum ticket will be a A B / A B / C D / C D and C D / A B / A B / C D
format ... $ 4.00 a ticket.

So Churchill would lose $$ from me during those two days on the superfecta races...X's 100,000 people or more there to wager plus the bettors at an O-T-B or simocast site or even an ADW .... that adds up to a lot of money they will be losing on superfecta wagers.

:confused:

Someone ever offer me $300. a month or a penny that doubles every day in a month, I would take the second offer. The power of the small and the many...AWESOME

[wisconsin]

There is no reason for dime supers on such a day. Anyone with $20 who can't play dime supers is still going to play the $20 on something. The less clogging of betting lines, the more money they will handle.

[Leparoux]

I bet the 10 cent superfectas on occasion.....some of them get up to over $12. a ticket.

However, on Oaks and Derby race days at Churchill... /if I do play superfectas. the $1 minimum ticket will be a A B / A B / C D / C D and C D / A B / A B / C D
format ... $ 4.00 a ticket.

So Churchill would lose $$ from me during those two days on the superfecta races...X's 100,000 people or more there to wager plus the bettors at an O-T-B or simocast site or even an ADW .... that adds up to a lot of money they will be losing on superfecta wagers.

:confused:

Someone ever offer me $300. a month or a penny that doubles every day in a month, I would take the second offer. The power of the small and the many...AWESOME
But at worst, you will bet the same amount of $ as you would have if they did offer 10 cent supers. It will also take you less time thus handle will be higher.

[horses4courses]

Hitting a superfecta in the KY Derby??? :lol:
Better off playing the Lotto.......

[Leparoux]

Hitting a superfecta in the KY Derby??? :lol:
Better off playing the Lotto.......
Paid 48,000 for a buck last year :eek:

[horses4courses]

Paid 48,000 for a buck last year :eek:

True.
I think that I may have had to invest over $40K before I hit it, though. ;)

[Leparoux]

True.
I think that I may have had to invest over $40K before I hit it, though. ;)
Oh at least! :D

[Valuist]

The reasons that have been given are not legitimate. No reason why they can't offer dime supers. Besides, the Derby is the ultimate early bird bet. Many people bet early and go home to watch and not deal with the chaos of the track/OTB.

[Leparoux]

The reasons that have been given are not legitimate. No reason why they can't offer dime supers. Besides, the Derby is the ultimate early bird bet. Many people bet early and go home to watch and not deal with the chaos of the track/OTB.
What is the reason to offer them? Would it increase the total handle? Your reasoning is great for the early birds but why would they make rules based on those people?

[Valuist]

What is the reason to offer them? Would it increase the total handle? Your reasoning is great for the early birds but why would they make rules based on those people?

The reasoning is for anyone. A huge field for a race like the Derby requires A LOT of spreading out. Way too much for $1 tickets, for 99% of the bettors. I guess its not a big deal, since they still have trifecta wagering; too bad I had wasted some time structuring a big super ticket.

FWIW, my investment in the tri will be less than what I had planned to put into the super.

[Leparoux]

The reasoning is for anyone. A huge field for a race like the Derby requires A LOT of spreading out. Way too much for $1 tickets, for 99% of the bettors. I guess its not a big deal, since they still have trifecta wagering; too bad I had wasted some time structuring a big super ticket.

FWIW, my investment in the tri will be less than what I had planned to put into the super.
I used to feel the same way until I started going to the Derby most years. It is purely a financial move for them and it does make sense. Most people who were going to bet 10 cent supers will end up betting that money anyways. Those lines suck already, I can't imagine them if there were 10 cent supers allowed.

[Longshot6977]

Someone ever offer me $300. a month or a penny that doubles every day in a month, I would take the second offer. The power of the small and the many...AWESOME

A penny a day that doubles for a month is $5,368,709.12 for a 30 day month and $10,737,418.24 for a 31 day month. The formula is 0.01x2^30 or 1 penny X 2 to the 30th power. Who woulda thought?

It would be nice if tracks actually taught their patrons how to use the betting machines. And they all should accept cash and not just vouchers. Installing more is a good idea too. So many people are scared of them and always use a teller which clogs up lines. On big race days, it would decrease teller lines, although the machine lines may get longer, but installing more machines in advance would decrease teller lines and possibly allow dime supers.

[Valuist]

I used to feel the same way until I started going to the Derby most years. It is purely a financial move for them and it does make sense. Most people who were going to bet 10 cent supers will end up betting that money anyways. Those lines suck already, I can't imagine them if there were 10 cent supers allowed.

There may be a lot of money bet there, but there will be more bet off track.

[iceknight]

I think the reason they don't offer on track is for managing lines.
the reason they cannot offer it online (via adw) is that since that would create a different superfecta pool (for the online dime super bettors), which would then violate some state rules on wagering pools etc.

Anyone else want to chip in on this, instead of just whining about the time you lost on structuring your .10 super ticket without finding out if it is available or not? Man, horseplayers whine a lot and then others have to whine about the whining.

[Valuist]

Anyone else want to chip in on this, instead of just whining about the time you lost on structuring your .10 super ticket without finding out if it is available or not? Man, horseplayers whine a lot and then others have to whine about the whining.

You mean like you are doing right now?

[SandyW]

Paid 48,000 for a buck last year :eek:

I wouldn't mine hitting that for 10 cents, $4,800 is not bad.

If they had 10 cent supers on derby day, the handle probably would increase 50% on the supers and have zero effect on other betting.

You are talking about worldwide handle when we talk about derby day, Churchill is worried about lines at the track, it does not make any sense, then again does anything make sense when it comes to management that is running this business into the ground.

[Will Power]

Todays payoffs for Churchill on Twinspires.com are quoted as 10 cent supers, and 50 cent tri's and p3's.

[iceknight]

You mean like you are doing right now?Exactly.. I forgot to add a smiley or that :bang: sign..

[iceknight]

then again does anything make sense when it comes to management that is running this business into the ground. You have a very valid point. What CD needs to do is to create specific dime super lines for ontrack customers. What they really need to do though is for someone to some A/B testing at the track for them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A/B_testing

[johnhannibalsmith]

The Derby field would seem to be tailor made for dime supers. It seems silly that while tracks routinely handle respectably in the super pools when running seven and eight horse fields that a field like this that would really allow you to build a big ticket with an AB / ABCD / ABCDE / ABCDEFGHIJ... styled ticket forces you to either have one hell of a solid opinion to bet into the pool, overspend, or just avoid it altogether.

I don't play a lot of supers, but since I tend to like a few horses every year it seems and rarely can narrow my opinions in such a way that I ever feel good about exactas or tris - I end up in pick 3 and 4 pools most of the time - and would probably enjoy building a few large dime super tickets without spending $2000 dollars and still missing half the field in third or fourth.

[Leparoux]

I wouldn't mine hitting that for 10 cents, $4,800 is not bad.

Me either but you have to think that if 10 cent supers were offered, many more people would have hit it and it wouldn't have paid $4,800 for a dime.

Lines specifically for 10 cent supers is not a bad idea at all.

Does anyone remember the last time dime supers were available on Derby day?

[rastajenk]

It's not just the ontrack lines that would be stuck. It would be every place that takes a pari-mutuel bet, for almost every one of which it's the single biggest day of the year, scrambling for every available and/or potential mutuel clerk, and you want them to punch out JHSmith's " big ticket with an AB / ABCD / ABCDE / ABCDEFGHIJ... styled ticket" not just for yourself but for the forty people in front of you in line all day...... not to mention the tix for the folks that can't part wheel but read 'em off one straight at a time....on machines that require extra keystrokes to punch past #16 or #18 (as does the ten-cent bet itself), I forget...

Or you could just go with the flow, and play 50 cent tri's.

[Producer]

The $1 super minimum is not just for the race itself, it's for the whole Saturday card and, I believe, the Friday Oaks card as well. :bang:

[johnhannibalsmith]

...and you want them to punch out JHSmith's " big ticket with...

:D

To be fair, I've worked as a teller, and done so on Derby day and the people that understand a ticket like that probably wouldn't be the problem. 90% of the customers are people that don't even have the slightest idea what to even say and eventually stammer out something about "...that horse that with the jockey that won on the horse last time..." or something equally cryptic- don't even know what pool they want into or what horse or for how much - you get to figure it all out based on the clues. I'm sure dime supers won't make life any easier, but honestly, as far out in left field as most Derby day bettors are, the ones that so much as understand what a superfecta is probably rate in the top 10% of simple/efficient transactions. :D

[MightBeSosa]

Why not 10c Supers online only?

Only reason not to, from CD perspective, is it MIGHT hurt the handle a bit.

[rastajenk]

Mr. Smith: Exactly :ThmbUp: As a former mutuelleur, I firmly believe it's an intelligent management decision to pass on this on this day. In the echo chamber of PaceAdvantage.com, it would be great to be able to take a serious poke at the super at a very base rate; in the real world,though, I think you should be grateful that you can't. You will enjoy the Derby just as much using other pools, and there will be fewer complaints coast-to-coast.

The guy who ever decides ten-centers are a go for the Derby is a guy without a job the next day, I'm pretty sure.

[thespaah]

I could live with 50 cent supers but hope 10 cent stays away. Lines are miserable enough on Derby day.
I think the dime supers are fine. The track should require bettors fill out a bet card and ban dime super "call" bets.
This was policy at NYRA tracks when the pick 6 was first introduced. In fact, pick 6 bets had to be made either by 3 or 5 mins to post.
I always have my bets written down on my program BEFORE I hit the line.
That's just me though.

[thespaah]

Im not sure why Churchill does not have 10 cent supers for the derby...maybe they don't want to hold up the lines for ontrack patrons?

If this is the actual reason, why can't ADW's accept dime supers? Its not like i'm going to hold up any lines from my living room. This makes no sense that at-home bettors can't have access to dime supers.

But, then again, its the racing industry where very little makes sense.
Is it not true that ADW's MUST follow the identical bets available at the track on which one is wagering?

[SharpCat]

Is it not true that ADW's MUST follow the identical bets available at the track on which one is wagering?


I don't think ADW's are required to carry all bets available from the host track. Haven't there been occasion's where host tracks offered show wagering on a race and ADW's did not because of a possible minus show pool.

[SandyW]

Does anyone remember the last time dime supers were available on Derby day?

If I remember correctly, I don't think dime supers were ever available on Derby Day.

[SandyW]

I think the dime supers are fine. The track should require bettors fill out a bet card and ban dime super "call" bets.
This was policy at NYRA tracks when the pick 6 was first introduced. In fact, pick 6 bets had to be made either by 3 or 5 mins to post.
I always have my bets written down on my program BEFORE I hit the line.
That's just me though.

This is a very good idea, and it would solve any problems for betters and or management.

[SandyW]

Is it not true that ADW's MUST follow the identical bets available at the track on which one is wagering?

The ADW's do not have to offer all bets that the host track offers, but can only offer pari-mutual bets that the host track takes.

[affirmedny]

Me either but you have to think that if 10 cent supers were offered, many more people would have hit it and it wouldn't have paid $4,800 for a dime.

It doesn't work that way, more dimes would be bet on the losing combinations as well, the payoff would probably be exactly the same. The public's handicapping doesn't get better because they're betting smaller units.

[plainolebill]

Does anyone remember the last time dime supers were available on Derby day?

Never

[Stillriledup]

I don't think ADW's are required to carry all bets available from the host track. Haven't there been occasion's where host tracks offered show wagering on a race and ADW's did not because of a possible minus show pool.
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74494

[Stillriledup]

Is it not true that ADW's MUST follow the identical bets available at the track on which one is wagering?

I'm not sure what the difference would be as long as all the money goes into the same pool.

There are ways they could figure out a way to have dime supers for ontrack patrons as well as offtrack patrons for the actual Derby.

Maybe they can offer dime supers for ontrack patrons the night before (or weds night, or thurs night), have a few tellers on staff from the closing of the final race on Wed/thu/Fri and stay open till 9pm and say that anyone wanting to bet a dime super has to do it weds-fri before from 5pm (or, whenever the last race on Friday is over) to 9pm.

Where there is a will there is a way....just seems like there's not much will.

[Longshot6977]

There are ways they could figure out a way to have dime supers for ontrack patrons as well as offtrack patrons for the actual Derby.


Like I said in my previous post, they should teach their patrons how to use the machines. They can also have machines dedicated to taking dime supers thru out the track.

Also, a few agreed to have bet cards made out in advance to help the teller punch in the 10 cent super bet. That's fine until the many one day/tourist type bettors don't know how to use it or they fill it out incorrectly which slows down the lines again.

If you think about it and you were a typical uninformed racetrack executive, these ideas make your job more difficult since they try to accommodate everyone in general to have a pleasant time and not worry about long lines. They just want it easy for the majority of their patrons and for them to have the least amount of problems on their busiest day of the year. Funny how they forget handle may increase though. Typical uninformed racetrack executives.

[cnollfan]

It doesn't work that way, more dimes would be bet on the losing combinations as well, the payoff would probably be exactly the same. The public's handicapping doesn't get better because they're betting smaller units.

I don't agree with this. The $1 minimum bet size prices out multi-spread tickets that include a few longshots. A simple super structure of 3 / 5 / 7 / 9 horses that costs $36 for a dime attracts more bettors than it would when it costs $360 for $1.

It's not necessarily better or worse handicapping by the public, but it is different.

[Stillriledup]

Like I said in my previous post, they should teach their patrons how to use the machines. They can also have machines dedicated to taking dime supers thru out the track.

Also, a few agreed to have bet cards made out in advance to help the teller punch in the 10 cent super bet. That's fine until the many one day/tourist type bettors don't know how to use it or they fill it out incorrectly which slows down the lines again.

If you think about it and you were a typical uninformed racetrack executive, these ideas make your job more difficult since they try to accommodate everyone in general to have a pleasant time and not worry about long lines. They just want it easy for the majority of their patrons and for them to have the least amount of problems on their busiest day of the year. Funny how they forget handle may increase though. Typical uninformed racetrack executives.

the problem with dedicated machines just for 10 cent supers is that those machines could be better used....its not like there will ever be enough machines where these machines would otherwise be sitting idle. Lines are going to be far deep for tellers and machines all throughout the day i would imagine.

One thing they could try is this. Obviously too late for this year but they could announce that starting next year, if you want to bet dime supers on the derby, you can sign up for a twinspires account if you dont already have an ADW that accepts bets on churchill. They could offer dime supers at the adws on weds thru friday and then on saturday, it all reverts back to 1 dollar supers...this way, everyone will have the same shot to get their dime supers into the pool, they would just have to do it earlier in the week.

the way is there, just not the will. Same holds true for having 300 betting numbers for the derby futures, they're still at 23 and a 'field'....no will there either to offer odds on every possible TC eligible.

Maybe someday.

[affirmedny]

I don't agree with this. The $1 minimum bet size prices out multi-spread tickets that include a few longshots. A simple super structure of 3 / 5 / 7 / 9 horses that costs $36 for a dime attracts more bettors than it would when it costs $360 for $1.

It's not necessarily better or worse handicapping by the public, but it is different.

It attracts more bettors to the losing combinations as well. The fractional betting does not magically point bettors to the winning combination.

[MightBeSosa]

It attracts more bettors to the losing combinations as well. The fractional betting does not magically point bettors to the winning combination.

depends on what the winning combo is. if it includes 2 or more longshots, especially underneath, then I expect that 10c combos are a lot more likely to hit than if the minimum was $1.

seems quite obvious.

[Leparoux]

depends on what the winning combo is. if it includes 2 or more longshots, especially underneath, then I expect that 10c combos are a lot more likely to hit than if the minimum was $1.

seems quite obvious.
:ThmbUp:

[affirmedny]

depends on what the winning combo is. if it includes 2 or more longshots, especially underneath, then I expect that 10c combos are a lot more likely to hit than if the minimum was $1.

seems quite obvious.

More likely to be hit yes, more likely to PAY LESS (which is what the argument is) no.