Bob Baffert's recent runners

[Track Phantom]

The story about the Baffert runners dying of heart attacks in the NY Times came on 4-10-13.

Since 4-13-13, Baffert has started 12 runners:

1 win (GAME ON DUDE)
1 other in the money (CANDREA 2nd in the 5 horse Santa Lucia)
10 of 12 out of the money (A few at odds of 8-5, 3-5, 3-5, 4-5) including War Academy up the track in Ark Derby
Even Game on Dude's win should be considered suspect. He beat Clubhouse Ride by 1/2 length. This is the same runner he beat by 7 and 6 1/2 lengths in the previous two races.

Does anyone believe this is a trend related to the investigation? Coincidence? Will it carry over to Derby week?

[Stillriledup]

Shhhhh. ;)

[PaceAdvantage]

Yeah....shhhhhh...access to trainer stats is so hard to come by these days... :lol:

[Gallop58]

Bad math if you're actually looking for some correlation. :ThmbDown:
The investigation would have started before it was made public. Might have to go back 6 or more months to whatever date you think any heat started.
Given that he just won the SA trainers title again, I suspect your math would blow up.
Nice internet theory though. :ThmbUp:

[Stillriledup]

Yeah....shhhhhh...access to trainer stats is so hard to come by these days... :lol:

Maybe it is hard, Baffert had a 1-2 shot today and a 6-5 shot today...i guess all those people had no access to those trainers stats! :lol:



;)

[Stillriledup]

Bad math if you're actually looking for some correlation. :ThmbDown:
The investigation would have started before it was made public. Might have to go back 6 or more months to whatever date you think any heat started.
Given that he just won the SA trainers title again, I suspect your math would blow up.
Nice internet theory though. :ThmbUp:

Exactly. Baffert is as hot as always, nothing to see here.

[PaceAdvantage]

Maybe it is hard, Baffert had a 1-2 shot today and a 6-5 shot today...i guess all those people had no access to those trainers stats! :lol:



;)You can lead a horse to water...doesn't mean he's going to drink.

Glad you're filling your coffers...carry on...

[Track Phantom]

Bad math if you're actually looking for some correlation. :ThmbDown:
The investigation would have started before it was made public. Might have to go back 6 or more months to whatever date you think any heat started.
Given that he just won the SA trainers title again, I suspect your math would blow up.
Nice internet theory though. :ThmbUp:

So, in your opinion, this cold streak is coincidental?

It might very well be or maybe there is something to it.

[PaceAdvantage]

You must admit he raised a good point about any "investigation" being conducted would have started way before this all went public, and that Baffert would have been aware of it...thus a pretty good theory that if the cold streak is related to the horse deaths, it would have started much earlier...

[Stillriledup]

You can lead a horse to water...doesn't mean he's going to drink.

Glad you're filling your coffers...carry on...

Im filling my coffers, thanks for being happy for me. :ThmbUp:

[Stillriledup]

You must admit he raised a good point about any "investigation" being conducted would have started way before this all went public, and that Baffert would have been aware of it...thus a pretty good theory that if the cold streak is related to the horse deaths, it would have started much earlier...

What's the difference whether he's being investigated or not, his horses are either running holes in the wind or they're flat...when Game on Dude struggled to win, the red flag went up for me. That flag will remain up until i see fit.

[Gallop58]

So, in your opinion, this cold streak is coincidental?

It might very well be or maybe there is something to it.

I guess I would want to look at analytically. What is a cold streak? What is a Baffert cold streak? Does he regularly have "cold streaks"? If he does, do they regularly occur at the end of the SA meet? Is there something about the set of runners within the suspected cold streak that might explain things?
I would look at as much of these things and then overlay a potential timeline and hunt for correlation. Even then, I'd be suspect about causation.

Wouldn't you tackle it the same way you handicap?

I guess I could make a completely uninformed guess or offer my own internet opinion but I won't. I'll stick with "any logical analysis, it seems to me, would have to account for when any actual change in practices took place, not when I or anyone else learned about them."

If that's not good enough then:

Yes I agree with you.


It might very well be or maybe there is something to it.

Not trying to be a jerk. Just didn't get the logic. :)

[Track Phantom]

Not trying to be a jerk.

Glad you clarified this because I was seriously starting to wonder.

[Track Phantom]

You must admit he raised a good point about any "investigation" being conducted would have started way before this all went public, and that Baffert would have been aware of it...thus a pretty good theory that if the cold streak is related to the horse deaths, it would have started much earlier...

I think it is plausible to think Baffert felt the investigation would be conducted under the covers and would not get "out". It is possible he was blindsided by the story. Who knows.....

Not trying to connect the dots. Just thought it was interesting. Today, he had a 3-5 firster run like he was carrying a piano. I'll bet he hasn't had that happen on a 3-5 or less debut runner the entire SA meet.

[nijinski]

I guess I would want to look at analytically. What is a cold streak? What is a Baffert cold streak? Does he regularly have "cold streaks"? If he does, do they regularly occur at the end of the SA meet? Is there something about the set of runners within the suspected cold streak that might explain things?
I would look at as much of these things and then overlay a potential timeline and hunt for correlation. Even then, I'd be suspect about causation.

Wouldn't you tackle it the same way you handicap?

I guess I could make a completely uninformed guess or offer my own internet opinion but I won't. I'll stick with "any logical analysis, it seems to me, would have to account for when any actual change in practices took place, not when I or anyone else learned about them."

If that's not good enough then:

Yes I agree with you.



Not trying to be a jerk. Just didn't get the logic. :)

His life altering MI might have changed his personnal and professional life .

[PaceAdvantage]

What's the difference whether he's being investigated or not, his horses are either running holes in the wind or they're flat...when Game on Dude struggled to win, the red flag went up for me. That flag will remain up until i see fit.Well, the theory here is that Baffert "stopped winning" once he was being scrutinized. That theory falls flat when one realizes the official scrutiny began long before anything hit the press...thus, if his recent "coldness" is due to the scrutiny, it should have started much earlier...

That's the difference.

[PaceAdvantage]

And please don't anyone try and label me a Baffert defender...I've pointed out more than once his NYT "starts per medication violation" numbers...which, according to the NYT, were horrendous...the only two trainers worse than Baffert on the list were Ness and Dutrow...

[cj]

Well, the theory here is that Baffert "stopped winning" once he was being scrutinized. That theory falls flat when one realizes the official scrutiny began long before anything hit the press...thus, if his recent "coldness" is due to the scrutiny, it should have started much earlier...

That's the difference.

How do we possibly know when he knew he was under scrutiny? It sure seems a strange coincidence, and I don't believe in coincidence.

[Gallop58]

Glad you clarified this because I was seriously starting to wonder.
Sorry I'm not very good with the :ThmbUp: :ThmbDown: :confused: :) 's...
Was supposed to be a friendly poke not a mugging or takedown!
Back in my hole...

[Track Phantom]

Today, he had a 3-5 firster run like he was carrying a piano. I'll bet he hasn't had that happen on a 3-5 or less debut runner the entire SA meet.

I looked it up....he has had 4 horses debut at .60-1 in the last 3 years. Three of them won easily and the other ran 2nd to Reneesgotzip (who I think is a Breeders Cup winner) and then came back to win the next two by 11 1/2 and 3 1/2.

Today, his horse was never in the race and finished 4th.

In the San Juan, his 6-5 favorite ran dead last beaten 19 lengths. He was coming off a mile and a half blow out win. Now, today was on the grass so it could be that he didn't take to the turf.

For what is worth, he had 30 runners go off at 6-5 or less at Santa Anita this meet. 15 of them won and 26 of the 30 ran in the exacta (87%). Only 4 ran out of the money. Then, today, back to back out of the money without threatening.

It looks worth tracking now.

[nijinski]

Baffert has never been shy or evasive with the public .
While other Cal trainers were worried about the ban on
steroids when it was coming years back . Baffert was very open
with his opinion and how he used them when he felt a particular horse
needed it. He didn't do it Dutrow style but he did explain his opinion.
We discussed here before .
The last thing the man needs after a brush with death , is the stress of these allegations hanging over his head .

[Gallop58]

I looked it up....he has had 4 horses debut at .60-1 in the last 3 years. Three of them won easily and the other ran 2nd to Reneesgotzip (who I think is a Breeders Cup winner) and then came back to win the next two by 11 1/2 and 3 1/2.

Today, his horse was never in the race and finished 4th.

In the San Juan, his 6-5 favorite ran dead last beaten 19 lengths. He was coming off a mile and a half blow out win. Now, today was on the grass so it could be that he didn't take to the turf.

For what is worth, he had 30 runners go off at 6-5 or less at Santa Anita this meet. 15 of them won and 26 of the 30 ran in the exacta (87%). Only 4 ran out of the money. Then, today, back to back out of the money without threatening.

It looks worth tracking now.

Well somehow you're bringing out the worst in me today...:)
I won't argue the stats, but the 2 examples are a stretch IMHO.
Did you check the breeding on .6 to 1? That wasn't Baffert, that was Momma. Also blew the break. If it had gotten up for 2nd would it be included in the evidence?...
And the other one is at a mile and 3/4. Baffert! At a mile and 3/4... On the GRASS... So yes, I'd go with the forgiveness line of reasoning
You're free to think what you want, but this is what I was talking about when I said, I'd look at each horse individually...

To each his own. :)

[MightBeSosa]

Big diff in heat between investigation and front page headlines.

Probably about the same as a warm sunny day and a Sauna.

[Track Phantom]

Baffert has never been shy or evasive with the public .
While other Cal trainers were worried about the ban on
steroids when it was coming years back . Baffert was very open
with his opinion and how he used them when he felt a particular horse
needed it. He didn't do it Dutrow style but he did explain his opinion.
We discussed here before .
The last thing the man needs after a brush with death , is the stress of these allegations hanging over his head .

and? Not sure how this matters here.

[Track Phantom]

Well somehow you're bringing out the worst in me today...:)
I won't argue the stats, but the 2 examples are a stretch IMHO.
Did you check the breeding on .6 to 1? That wasn't Baffert, that was Momma. Also blew the break. If it had gotten up for 2nd would it be included in the evidence?...
And the other one is at a mile and 3/4. Baffert! At a mile and 3/4... On the GRASS... So yes, I'd go with the forgiveness line of reasoning
You're free to think what you want, but this is what I was talking about when I said, I'd look at each horse individually...

To each his own. :)

You would need to do the same "subjective" analysis on each of his other 30 .60-1 shots to make proper conclusions.

I think you are trying too hard to prove or disprove something. Can't you sit back and say "hmmm, interesting, guess I'll pay attention to it" or does everything have to be a black and white absolute?

I'm don't stand on either side of this argument. I just find it compelling. If he starts winning at the normal Baffert clip, then it was simply a blip. If he continues to have this run, then it was a start to a trend that is worth adding into your handicapping.

[bob60566]

Baffert's horses seem to win very high % on layoffs?.

[MNslappy]

Big diff in heat between investigation and front page headlines.

That's what I was thinking.

"A spokesman for the California Horse Racing Board, said an investigator was assigned to help Rick Arthur, the equine medical director for the state, and researchers from U.C. Davis review the deaths." (from the NY TIMES)

I would imagine for a guy like Baffert that Rick Arthur and some researchers from UC Davis looking into you probably aren't nearly as worrisome as the New York Times article (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/11/sports/california-examines-puzzling-trend-of-horses-sudden-deaths.html?ref=bobbaffert) was.

[Not4Love]

I agree with what you are suggesting. Is there a direct correlation ? He..!! YES...

If you don't believe there is? Good luck playing his horses!!

[nijinski]

and? Not sure how this matters here.

Since there's a conspiracy brewing , I thought I'd throw in some thoughts
on BB . I not only think he's as open and honest as it gets . I don't think
at this point in his career or life , he needs to be tampering with anything that would alter a race . if his percentages are winding down now. Why
can't that be a coincidence?

[Stillriledup]

Well, the theory here is that Baffert "stopped winning" once he was being scrutinized. That theory falls flat when one realizes the official scrutiny began long before anything hit the press...thus, if his recent "coldness" is due to the scrutiny, it should have started much earlier...

That's the difference.

I think Valento's theory is that there might be some relationship between the announcement and the cold streak and not the behind the scenes stuff that the public didnt know about.

I don't care what the reason is why his horses are carrying piano's around on their backs, i just know that they are....and until Baffert gets back to the 'baffert of old' i'll keep betting against him when he's a really short price.

[Stillriledup]

Since there's a conspiracy brewing , I thought I'd throw in some thoughts
on BB . I not only think he's as open and honest as it gets . I don't think
at this point in his career or life , he needs to be tampering with anything that would alter a race . if his percentages are winding down now. Why
can't that be a coincidence?

If you don't know Baffert personally or have dealt with him on a personal or professional level, how would you know if he's honest or not?

[RXB]

Since there's a conspiracy brewing , I thought I'd throw in some thoughts
on BB . I not only think he's as open and honest as it gets . I don't think
at this point in his career or life , he needs to be tampering with anything that would alter a race . if his percentages are winding down now. Why
can't that be a coincidence?

I think he's a guy with an unusually high win % who is having a serious problem with horses dropping dead inexplicably, including one found to contain traces of an agent that is commonly used by athletes attempting to combat serious side effects of blood doping.

And as far as "open and honest" goes... good ol' wisecracking, Tweetin', media-friendly Derby Bob now lowers the cone of silence and communicates only through laughably disingenuous press releases any time he might have to face legitimate questions about suspicious goings-on. Tweebster, now this.

[nijinski]

If you don't know Baffert personally or have dealt with him on a personal or professional level, how would you know if he's honest or not?

I'm talking about honest as in not cheating . He is a multiple Classic winning
trainer , three time Derby winner . Throw that career and iconic image away .
Makes no sense , way too much to loose . I would definately be quite
shocked if he was doing anything enhancing .

[Stillriledup]

I think he's a guy with an unusually high win % who is having a serious problem with horses dropping dead inexplicably, including one found to contain traces of an agent that is commonly used by athletes attempting to combat serious side effects of blood doping.

And as far as "open and honest" goes... good ol' wisecracking, Tweetin', media-friendly Derby Bob now lowers the cone of silence and communicates only through laughably disingenuous press releases any time he might have to face legitimate questions about suspicious goings-on. Tweebster, now this.

Couldnt agree more....he's smiling bob when things are going his way, but when they're not going his way, he's got some publicist releasing statements and refusing to answer phone calls from journalists who want the truth.

Its like he's hiding in the bushes until this all blows over, ya know, maybe we will just forget about all if it.

[dasch]

This is a perfect example of having an extremely small sample size and jumping to an incorrect conclusion based on coincidence.

I can tell you that I know his horses well and EVERY ONE of those runners either ran their same numbers or had a MAJOR excuse for not running their best.

Bet against him at your own risk.

[nijinski]

I think he's a guy with an unusually high win % who is having a serious problem with horses dropping dead inexplicably, including one found to contain traces of an agent that is commonly used by athletes attempting to combat serious side effects of blood doping.

And as far as "open and honest" goes... good ol' wisecracking, Tweetin', media-friendly Derby Bob now lowers the cone of silence and communicates only through laughably disingenuous press releases any time he might have to face legitimate questions about suspicious goings-on. Tweebster, now this.

Like I said in my last post . It makes no sense for him , with his of his stature
in this sport to tamper with his horses .

Where could this blood doping taking have taken place ? Did they find bags of plasma lying around the barn . We went through this before , it's not that easy to do in a barn .

Would you subject yourself to the press right now? Don't think I would .

[Fager Fan]

You must admit he raised a good point about any "investigation" being conducted would have started way before this all went public, and that Baffert would have been aware of it...thus a pretty good theory that if the cold streak is related to the horse deaths, it would have started much earlier...

They weren't investigating too deeply considering this went on for 2 years and they never even got the trainer's vet reports on the horses who died. Add to this the apparent circling of the wagons around Baffert by the CHRB, and it doesn't add up to Baffert needing to be too concerned about any investigation.

[Fager Fan]

Like I said in my last post . It makes no sense for him , with his of his stature
in this sport to tamper with his horses .

Where could this blood doping taking have taken place ? Did they find bags of plasma lying around the barn . We went through this before , it's not that easy to do in a barn .

Would you subject yourself to the press right now? Don't think I would .

You're neglecting what makes even less sense - 7 horses dropping dead. Even Baffert can't offer an explanation as the only plausible one is doping.

[RXB]

Like I said in my last post . It makes no sense for him , with his of his stature
in this sport to tamper with his horses .

Where could this blood doping taking have taken place ? Did they find bags of plasma lying around the barn . We went through this before , it's not that easy to do in a barn .

Would you subject yourself to the press right now? Don't think I would .

Regarding your first paragraph, has it ever dawned on you that perhaps the reason why some of these people find success in the first place is because they skirt the rules? I guess you mustn't be a baseball fan, or at least you weren't in the late 90's/early 00's-- and clearly you've never heard of Lance Armstrong.

No, they haven't found plasma bags in Baffert's barn. They have had to autopsy seven of his horses for sudden death over a 16-month span, with six showing symptoms of cardiopulmonary failure (the main concern with blood doped athletes) while the seventh died from a severe internal hemorrhage and was found to contain a blood-thinning agent (via rat poison) that has been used by athletes to try to negate the sludgy-blood effects of doping.

Also, my sense is that people tend to be more willing to communicate directly when truth and ethics are on their side, while more likely to resort to PR firms when truth and ethics are perhaps not so much on their side.

[cj]

A whole lot of naivety in this thread.

[plainolebill]

Not a Baffert fan but the maiden filly broke slowly, bobbled, was a bit tight off of heels and weakened in the final furlong. I guess some people would might say she should have overcome all those problems in her first start :confused:

Sky Kingdom is an absolute laugher - I'd be giving drug tests to the bettors that made him the favorite. Baffert - not much of a turf trainer, Garcia not much of a turf rider on his best day, horse has never started on the turf. Gets in a speed duel, goes, 1:12 and change in a 14f race, finishes last. What a shocker.

[nijinski]

Regarding your first paragraph, has it ever dawned on you that perhaps the reason why some of these people find success in the first place is because they skirt the rules? I guess you mustn't be a baseball fan, or at least you weren't in the late 90's/early 00's-- and clearly you've never heard of Lance Armstrong.

No, they haven't found plasma bags in Baffert's barn. They have had to autopsy seven of his horses for sudden death over a 16-month span, with six showing symptoms of cardiopulmonary failure (the main concern with blood doped athletes) while the seventh died from a severe internal hemorrhage and was found to contain a blood-thinning agent (via rat poison) that has been used by athletes to try to negate the sludgy-blood effects of doping.

Also, my sense is that people tend to be more willing to communicate directly when truth and ethics are on their side, while more likely to resort to PR firms when truth and ethics are perhaps not so much on their side.

You do know some of his colleagues have had the same sad fate with their horses . A few in Hollendorfer's barn and two noted in Bonde's .
Tuscan Evening was Jerry's . What happened to make them collapse . Don't
have an answer . We have to wait for all the pathology and the whole investigation to be concluded . It's so very sad to see and hear this , but
this happens to kids in athletics too . Two reported in NJ about a year ago .
The only answers there were undetected congenital heart disease from birth .
Look ,all I'm saying is I can't believe he would do anything to his horses
that would put them in danger . Could it be tainted supplements or someone else's doing . We have no idea .
As for your wise ass remarks , Lance Armstrong is a headcase IMO to do what he did .
Does Baffert have to play by his own rules . Doubt that .
My sense is that if you are upset and you can afford not to talk to the press.
Why should you .

[RXB]

A whole lot of naivety in this thread.

From one person, primarily.

[Dark Horse]

The story about the Baffert runners dying of heart attacks in the NY Times came on 4-10-13.

Since 4-13-13, Baffert has started 12 runners:

1 win (GAME ON DUDE)
1 other in the money (CANDREA 2nd in the 5 horse Santa Lucia)
10 of 12 out of the money (A few at odds of 8-5, 3-5, 3-5, 4-5) including War Academy up the track in Ark Derby
Even Game on Dude's win should be considered suspect. He beat Clubhouse Ride by 1/2 length. This is the same runner he beat by 7 and 6 1/2 lengths in the previous two races.

Does anyone believe this is a trend related to the investigation? Coincidence? Will it carry over to Derby week?

It's just a week; the last week of the SA meet, which he won as trainer. I doubt that 900K (Game On Dude) for a week's work feels like a losing streak to a whole lot of folks. I thought Game On Dude's win was impressive. He showed he can rate. A very different horse now than under Sutherland.

Even so, Baffert didn't look too happy after Gifting got stuck in traffic. The kind of race you hope people don't see. Sky Kingdom was more surprising. I wonder if he thought he was training, after sleepwalking in the lead for most of the 1 3/4 mile. I doubt it, but the fact is that he had zero response when the other horses came flying by in the final turn.

War Academy being pulled up was fishy, imo. Some weeks earlier Smith had told Baffert that WA might be his Derby horse. Might be... Made me think that Smith realized what he had, or rather didn't have, halfway through the Arkansas Derby. A second spot would have qualified WA for the KD. Maybe I'm paranoid that way, but it didn't surprise me when he had a Derby ride on Palace Malice just a day or two later.

I would agree that Baffert has had bad luck with his Derby qualifying campaign. Especially Flashback. Govenor Charlie has no shot, imo. Let's see if he enters Super 99. I hope so.

Will the trend continue? The danger of (overly eager) pattern recognition is that it sees meaning in randomness. A week is a small sample. The data have to organize some way, but that doesn't make them meaningful. A monkey with a typewriter and all eternity will eventually type the Bible.

[RXB]

You do know some of his colleagues have had the same sad fate with their horses . A few in Hollendorfer's barn and two noted in Bonde's .
Tuscan Evening was Jerry's . What happened to make them collapse . Don't
have an answer . We have to wait for all the pathology and the whole investigation to be concluded . It's so very sad to see and hear this , but
this happens to kids in athletics too . Two reported in NJ about a year ago .
The only answers there were undetected congenital heart disease from birth .
Look ,all I'm saying is I can't believe he would do anything to his horses
that would put them in danger . Could it be tainted supplements or someone else's doing . We have no idea .
As for your wise ass remarks , Lance Armstrong is a headcase IMO to do what he did .
Does Baffert have to play by his own rules . Doubt that .
My sense is that if you are upset and you can afford not to talk to the press.
Why should you .

Re: "wise-ass remarks." You called me "nuts" in the other thread on this topic, and have you already forgotten this wise-ass sentence from your previous post: "Did they find plasma bags in his barn?" Clean up your own backyard, then worry about what's in mine.

Lance Armstrong... Marion Jones... Mark McGwire... Barry Bonds... I could go on and on and on with the list of names. They all deny using until the weight of evidence is so great that nobody can possibly believe them. Also, there was a survey of Olympic athletes a few years back, you can find it yourself, that showed a shockingly high percentage of them would cheat with PED's if they knew that they wouldn't get caught. If so many highly competitive people would be willing to take the side-effect risks with their own health, it is the height of absurdity to think that a lot of high-level horse trainers (and owners, for that matter) wouldn't be okay with administration of PED's into their horses-- especially given horse racing's lousy record in terms of catching cheaters and delivering stern punishment.

Baffert is singled out because no other trainer has had more than one or two sudden deaths in California in the past 18 months. And that includes Hollendorfer, who has a lot more horses than Baffert. Hollendorfer would have to have had about a dozen drop dead to keep pace with Baffert's rate.

Baffert's recent spate of sudden deaths is a statistical anomaly, an outlier. Occasionally outliers are essentially random but usually there is an underlying reason behind a statistical anomaly. And in this case, while there's no proof that Baffert has been blood doping his horses, the nature of the deaths plus the rat-poison finding are consistent with what happens when blood doping goes wrong. So it's a very distinct possibility that needs to be investigated and can't be dismissed as just idle speculation or "conspiracy" or "nuts" or whatever-- especially considering the man in the spotlight is doing a clam impersonation on the issue that is counter to his normal persona, and to which he resorts only in situations where he's cornered by uncomfortable facts.

Dick Mandella called the situation "disturbing" and I think he's a fairly respected guy on the backstretch.

[nijinski]

From one person, primarily.

Whatever you both choose to think , but why hang him before all the
facts ?

I'll give you two facts to start with . One necropsy noted a finding
that pointed to a conduction problem of this particular horses heart .
Go do your homework in electrophysiolgy and have a party with that one .
No drugs nothing suspicious to report .

Another was confirmed to have neuro disease and they don't know
why it caused a collapse and sudden death . It was clearly the finding .
This horse had brain lesions . Nothing pointing to any tampering ,
It was EPM .

These are the only necropsy reports I've come across . They are pretty
conclusive .

Let's see all the final results before we crucify the guy . I think he
deserves that much . Especially since he's cooperating .
We've enjoyed many years of great racing coming from his barn so
lets not draw these harmful conclusions so fast .
I'm not as naive as you think . I'm as curious as everyone else . but
all the pieces have fit and in a case like this , it's a big process.

[nijinski]

Re: "wise-ass remarks." You called me "nuts" in the other thread on this topic, and have you already forgotten this wise-ass sentence from your previous post: "Did they find plasma bags in his barn?" Clean up your own backyard, then worry about what's in mine.

Lance Armstrong... Marion Jones... Mark McGwire... Barry Bonds... I could go on and on and on with the list of names. They all deny using until the weight of evidence is so great that nobody can possibly believe them. Also, there was a survey of Olympic athletes a few years back, you can find it yourself, that showed a shockingly high percentage of them would cheat with PED's if they knew that they wouldn't get caught. If so many highly competitive people would be willing to take the side-effect risks with their own health, it is the height of absurdity to think that a lot of high-level horse trainers (and owners, for that matter) wouldn't be okay with administration of PED's into their horses-- especially given horse racing's lousy record in terms of catching cheaters and delivering stern punishment.

Baffert is singled out because no other trainer has had more than one or two sudden deaths in California in the past 18 months. And that includes Hollendorfer, who has a lot more horses than Baffert. Hollendorfer would have to have had about a dozen drop dead to keep pace with Baffert's rate.

Baffert's recent spate of sudden deaths is a statistical anomaly, an outlier. Occasionally outliers are essentially random but usually there is an underlying reason behind a statistical anomaly. And in this case, while there's no proof that Baffert has been blood doping his horses, the nature of the deaths plus the rat-poison finding are consistent with what happens when blood doping goes wrong. So it's a very distinct possibility that needs to be investigated and can't be dismissed as just idle speculation or "conspiracy" or "nuts" or whatever-- especially considering the man in the spotlight is doing a clam impersonation on the issue that is counter to his normal persona, and to which he resorts only in situations where he's cornered by uncomfortable facts.

Dick Mandella called the situation "disturbing" and I think he's a fairly respected guy on the backstretch.

I don't think I called you nuts . Maybe the context that was said . I might have said it was nuts , But I'll check and if I did , you have my apologies .
We shouldn't be name calling ..
I actually really was just asking if any bags of Plasma were in the barn..
Thought it was and still think it's valid and relative to the post .

I checked , post 29 in the "doping" thread . I said ,"That's nuts , no way" .

[Dark Horse]

Regarding your first paragraph, has it ever dawned on you that perhaps the reason why some of these people find success in the first place is because they skirt the rules? I guess you mustn't be a baseball fan, or at least you weren't in the late 90's/early 00's-- and clearly you've never heard of Lance Armstrong.


Comparing horse racing with cycling or the Olympics, or baseball's steroid era, is too easy. It is pretty much public knowledge how the Jamaican sprinters cheat, especially after Armstrong explained how he did it. Same for baseball. In each of these cases the doping was considered so widespread that users justified it to create a level playing field. Horse racing is far too regulated for that. There are cheaters, but they're the exception, rather than the rule.

Many people don't realize that top trainers are given insider info that is not available to the public at the auctions. Everybody wants them to train their horses. That's how they end up with so many of the best horses. Cheating has nothing to do with it. If there is foul play in the case of Baffert, I would find it much more likely if some enemy had been poisoning his horses. There are different ways of looking at the use of the word 'disturbing'.

[nijinski]

Comparing horse racing with cycling or the Olympics, or baseball's steroid era, is too easy. It is pretty much public knowledge how the Jamaican sprinters cheat, especially after Armstrong explained how he did it. Same for baseball. In each of these cases the doping was considered so widespread that users justified it to create a level playing field. Horse racing is far too regulated for that. There are cheaters, but they're the exception, rather than the rule.

Many people don't realize that top trainers are given insider info that is not available to the public at the auctions. Everybody wants them to train their horses. That's how they end up with so many of the best horses. Cheating has nothing to do with it. If there is foul play in the case of Baffert, I would find it much more likely if some enemy had been poisoning his horses. There are different ways of looking at the use of the word 'disturbing'.

Exactly my thoughts , especially with all the recent regulations .
I also agree with the word "disturbing" . Mandella and Baffert are pretty
close .

[MNslappy]

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/11/04/sports/04racingg/04racingg-articleInline.jpg
.http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/11/04/sports/04racingg/04racingg-articleInline.jpghttp://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/11/04/sports/04racingg/04racingg-articleInline.jpg

[cj]

Horse racing is far too regulated for that. There are cheaters, but they're the exception, rather than the rule.



Racing is better regulated than other sports? Wow, that is all I can say.

[RXB]

Horse racing is far too regulated for that. There are cheaters, but they're the exception, rather than the rule.

Many people don't realize that top trainers are given insider info that is not available to the public at the auctions. Everybody wants them to train their horses. That's how they end up with so many of the best horses. Cheating has nothing to do with it. If there is foul play in the case of Baffert, I would find it much more likely if some enemy had been poisoning his horses. There are different ways of looking at the use of the word 'disturbing'.

Major international track and field is every bit as regulated as horse racing, and tests its athletes not only immediately after a competition but often away from competition, too. Same with cycling. They've gone to greater lengths than horse racing in attempting to prevent doping. Still haven't stopped it.

That supposed enemy of Baffert's decided to rat-poison Mike Mitchell's horse, too?

[Dark Horse]

Racing is better regulated than other sports? Wow, that is all I can say.

And your knowledge of other sports is on par with your knowledge of horse racing?

[cj]

And your knowledge of other sports is on par with your knowledge of horse racing?

I'm a sports junkie, so maybe not on par, but very close.

[Fager Fan]

Whatever you both choose to think , but why hang him before all the
facts ?

I'll give you two facts to start with . One necropsy noted a finding
that pointed to a conduction problem of this particular horses heart .
Go do your homework in electrophysiolgy and have a party with that one .
No drugs nothing suspicious to report .

Another was confirmed to have neuro disease and they don't know
why it caused a collapse and sudden death . It was clearly the finding .
This horse had brain lesions . Nothing pointing to any tampering ,
It was EPM .

These are the only necropsy reports I've come across . They are pretty
conclusive .

Let's see all the final results before we crucify the guy . I think he
deserves that much . Especially since he's cooperating .
We've enjoyed many years of great racing coming from his barn so
lets not draw these harmful conclusions so fast .
I'm not as naive as you think . I'm as curious as everyone else . but
all the pieces have fit and in a case like this , it's a big process.

One could say that given the evidence, it's Baffert who needs to show that he didn't do anything to cause these horses to drop dead yet he didn't even turn over his vet records. Not that any illegal items would be noted, of course, but wouldn't someone who's truly concerned about why his horses are dropping dead do everything in his power to try to find a link? I've not heard that he did any investigating himself regarding feed and possible contaminants, or anything else that someone turning over every rock would do.

Horses don't fall over dead from EPM to my knowledge. And if he had EPM, that should be noticed and the horse treated for EPM and not likely working while having EPM. In other words, I don't know of any relation between a report of EPM and the horse dropping dead (though if a vet corrects me, I'll stand corrected).

You noted other trainers who had a horse drop dead. Having one drop dead is itself shocking but can be explained as a rare horse who has heart issues (or severe EIPH or whatever other cause). Two is more shocking. Three starts raising the suspicion antenna if it wasn't already raised. Four? Five? Six? Seven? Are you kidding me?

I rather like(d) Baffert but when a trainer has really strange things happen in his barn like seven dropping dead with no explanation or two who got rare liver diseases at the same time or three who all ultimately die in a short time frame after running their best race or one who is reported on national TV to not be right and then proceeds to break and fold up soon after the break or cobra venom found in your barn office, then you bet I'm suspicious. There's far more here than harmless overages of legal meds which has taken down other trainers.

They've had 2 years to investigate why they had a sharp increase in CA of horses dropping dead and why one trainer accounts for the sharp increase. The horses' bodies have long ago been cremated or rendered. I'm not expecting any so-called investigation to turn up a single thing now.

[Dark Horse]

Major international track and field is every bit as regulated as horse racing, and tests its athletes not only immediately after a competition but often away from competition, too. Same with cycling. They've gone to greater lengths than horse racing in attempting to prevent doping. Still haven't stopped it.

That's how things are supposed to work. But Jamaica doesn't test its athletes out of meets, and, as Armstrong explained, when they knocked on the door for an out-of-competition test the riders would simply not open the door if they knew they would be caught. If you can hide a horse just as easily, my hats off to you.

[RXB]

I'll give you two facts to start with . One necropsy noted a finding
that pointed to a conduction problem of this particular horses heart .
Go do your homework in electrophysiolgy and have a party with that one .
No drugs nothing suspicious to report .

Another was confirmed to have neuro disease and they don't know
why it caused a collapse and sudden death . It was clearly the finding .
This horse had brain lesions . Nothing pointing to any tampering ,
It was EPM .


EPM doesn't cause sudden death; the necropsy referred to it as a "puzzling" case. And there are still five other horses that you haven't even mentioned yet. In fact, necropsies have been released on them:

-- Heart failure
-- Heart failure and/or exercise-induced pulmonary hemorrhage
-- Heart failure
-- Severe pulmonary edema (i.e., swelling of the lungs)
-- Massive thoracic hemorrhage (the horse with traces of rat poison)

Exactly the kinds of things that are warned about when people blood dope. Except the hemorrhage-- which is exactly the kind of thing that can happen if you attempt to counter the sludge effects with a blood thinner. Like rat poison.

Is this proof? No. Is it an indication that blood doping is a distinct possibility? Yes.

[Valuist]

I think Valento's theory is that there might be some relationship between the announcement and the cold streak and not the behind the scenes stuff that the public didnt know about.

I don't care what the reason is why his horses are carrying piano's around on their backs, i just know that they are....and until Baffert gets back to the 'baffert of old' i'll keep betting against him when he's a really short price.

Agree 100%. Maybe there's a virus going around the barn, maybe Baffert is feeling the heat. Right now, you'd have to consider him a go-against.

[jahura2]

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/11/04/sports/04racingg/04racingg-articleInline.jpg









Thanks "Slappy" great info on this chart. Definitely useful when a horse switches form a "hay and Oats" barn to one of these guys in the top 10 or so!

[RXB]

That's how things are supposed to work. But Jamaica doesn't test its athletes out of meets, and, as Armstrong explained, when they knocked on the door for an out-of-competition test the riders would simply not open the door if they knew they would be caught. If you can hide a horse just as easily, my hats off to you.

Horse racing NEVER bothers to test except for immediately after competition, so I fail to see how this would back up your earlier claim that horse racing is more regulated and thus less prone to drug cheats.

[Dark Horse]

Horse racing NEVER bothers to test except for immediately after competition, so I fail to see how this would back up your earlier claim that horse racing is more regulated and thus less prone to drug cheats.

In baseball's steroid era 'everybody' was using. The norm was steroids. Same in cycling (EPO). And the same in the Olympics. Backtesting of samples from earlier Olympics made the committee decide not to publish the findings... What could that mean?

I'll never claim any type of expertise where it comes to horse racing and medication. The main reason for that may be that I know a trainer who would move from Pimlico to NY and have no idea what half of the listed forbidden substances were. That said, things would have to be absurdly dark to beat what went on in those other sports. My own results in horse racing are such that I don't feel I get beaten by drugged horses, with a rare exception here or there. Ultimately, and for lack of a more scientific standard, that's what I go by. The beauty of horse racing is the form of day. You don't see Usain Bolt or Lance Amstrong winning every time. That lack of consistency is perhaps the best 'evidence' against widespread doping.

[Valuist]

In baseball's steroid era 'everybody' was using. The norm was steroids. Same in cycling (EPO). And the same in the Olympics. Backtesting of samples from earlier Olympics made the committee decide not to publish the findings... What could that mean?

You don't see Usain Bolt or Lance Amstrong winning every time. That lack of consistency is perhaps the best 'evidence' against widespread doping.

Everybody was NOT using in MLB. There was a lot of users, but it was FAR from everyone. And we had a pretty good idea of who was using. You just remember the guys who were using because all the attention was on them.

As for Bolt, he doesn't lose very often. And what about Carl Lewis? His streak made Zenyatta's and Cigar's win streaks look miniscule.

[Not4Love]

This is for RXB. I agree with everything you said on this thread. It's like you were taking my thoughts directly. Only one problem. Richard Mandella!!!! His numbers have improved significantly the last year and a half. He is in the high 20% range. I just don't trust anyone in this range, but that's just me.


I agree he is very well respected. His numbers just concern me.

[Not4Love]

Darkhorse. In all sincerity I would like to know what track you play. You said you don't feel like you get beat by many drugged horses. What track?

[RXB]

This is for RXB. I agree with everything you said on this thread. It's like you were taking my thoughts directly. Only one problem. Richard Mandella!!!! His numbers have improved significantly the last year and a half. He is in the high 20% range. I just don't trust anyone in this range, but that's just me.

I agree he is very well respected. His numbers just concern me.

Without some smoke, I won't yell "fire."

It's all speculation. None of us knows for sure in any specific case. I'm aware of some of the issues with respect to blood doping but more as they relate to humans. There are some similarities between human physiology and equine physiology, but also differences. I'm not a vet or even a human physiologist; I don't have anything like an expert level of knowledge.

The question is: is it reasonable speculation with regard to Baffert's run of dead horses? Is it a legitimate possibility? I think it is, and I think it's important to make sure that matters like these are investigated thoroughly and not in a clandestine manner. I don't want power brokers in the CHRB or TOC to be able to get things swept under the rug without the public ever knowing about them. I'm glad that Ray Paulick was able to get some info and make it available to us. (A lot of so-called horse racing media act more like industry publicists.)

[Stillriledup]

Without some smoke, I won't yell "fire."

It's all speculation. None of us knows for sure in any specific case. I'm aware of some of the issues with respect to blood doping but more as they relate to humans. There are some similarities between human physiology and equine physiology, but also differences. I'm not a vet or even a human physiologist; I don't have anything like an expert level of knowledge.

The question is: is it reasonable speculation with regard to Baffert's run of dead horses? Is it a legitimate possibility? I think it is, and I think it's important to make sure that matters like these are investigated thoroughly and not in a clandestine manner. I don't want power brokers in the CHRB or TOC to be able to get things swept under the rug without the public ever knowing about them. I'm glad that Ray Paulick was able to get some info and make it available to us. (A lot of so-called horse racing media act more like industry publicists.)

Here's a question i have for you.

If Baffert was a loser as a trainer, would we be looking at this differently? Or, does his wild and almost unmatched historical success a factor in 'coming down harder' on him that we might if the person who had the horses mysteriously die been a blue collar 10% trainer who was training cheap claimers at some B rated track?

[RXB]

Here's a question i have for you.

If Baffert was a loser as a trainer, would we be looking at this differently? Or, does his wild and almost unmatched historical success a factor in 'coming down harder' on him that we might if the person who had the horses mysteriously die been a blue collar 10% trainer who was training cheap claimers at some B rated track?

It might get more attention because of his name and because he operates in one of the two biggest cities/circuits in the country. But he profits from attention in other ways, so I don't feel as though it's anything more than the other edge of the sword.

Besides, his stature might protect him in certain ways that wouldn't be available to a small-time guy. "Too big to fail?" is how John Pricci put it. "Too well connected" might be an equally good phrase.

Okay, that's my last comment about this issue until further details come to light.

[Stillriledup]

It might get more attention because of his name and because he operates in one of the two biggest cities/circuits in the country. But he profits from attention in other ways, so I don't feel as though it's anything more than the other edge of the sword.

Besides, his stature might protect him in certain ways that wouldn't be available to a small-time guy. "Too big to fail?" is how John Pricci put it. "Too well connected" might be an equally good phrase.

Okay, that's my last comment about this issue until further details come to light.

Good comments, thanks.

[chadk66]

the horse and human physiologies are extremely close. there are a ton of drugs that are used in the human medical field that were first used on horses and vice versa.

[Dark Horse]

Darkhorse. In all sincerity I would like to know what track you play. You said you don't feel like you get beat by many drugged horses. What track?

Mostly the Southern California circuit, but some NY tossed in. Not as trusting towards Louisiana. I should probably add that I focus on the form of day. A good horse on a bad day is not going to win, clean or dirty.

[Track Phantom]

I'm stunned how many polar opposite viewpoints there are in this thread.

In my opinion, I believe the poster who said he is "suspicious of anyone winning in the high 20% range and above" is absolutely correct. In the cleanest of times, this would be suspicious. It is even more so when you consider they are winning at this high percentage INTO a pool of other trainers taking an edge.

I've noticed (very peripherally) that Shug McGaughey is winning more than he used to. I could be way off here but I thought he was in the low teens for a long time. Now, I believe he is in the 20% range and winning on grass, which he never really did. Is he cheating? I would love to say no, as I really like the guy...but how can you not be suspicious?

We are not suspicious of these things because we are skeptical, jaded jerks. Every one of us who is negative on here would MUCH rather be rejoicing in the great accomplishments. The industry has put us in this corner by its failure to deal with the problem. We don't trust the industry to be forthcoming, honest or have even the slightest concern.

Back to the reason this thread was started. Bob Baffert is cheating. The record proves this. He likely has been for many years. It was likely the reason he has so many big races won in the mid to late '90's. He is third on the violation list. I'm not saying anything that isn't factual.

To think that Baffert wouldn't "jeopardize" his previous success and standing is absurd. These guys live off the adrenaline of winning. These horses died due to a trainer trying to take an edge and keep his grasp on a high performing program. To think otherwise is silly.

Take this data to an underwriter and see what the possibility is that these horses died of natural causes. There aren't enough zero's in the calculator to capture the exact percentage.

[cj]

Take this data to an underwriter and see what the possibility is that these horses died of natural causes. There aren't enough zero's in the calculator to capture the exact percentage.

Exactly why I mentioned naivety.

Any word on if these horses were insured, and if so, were they policies redeemed? That would be a hell of a story.

[chadk66]

Shug can flat out train horses. Has he ever had a bad test? Him winning in the 20% range would be expected with the quality of horses he has.

[PaceAdvantage]

In my opinion, I believe the poster who said he is "suspicious of anyone winning in the high 20% range and above" is absolutely correct.I beg to differ. With today's widespread "short field" disease plaguing the industry, coupled with the way racing offices cater to trainers who enter and scratch when a field turns up tougher than they expect, the naivety swings the other way if you are going to sit there and tell me every 20% trainer deserves to be under suspicion. That kind of mindset just doesn't reflect the current macro state of the game...

[nijinski]

[QUOTE=cj]Exactly why I mentioned naivety.

Any word on if these horses were insured, and if so, were they policies redeemed? That would be a hell of a story.[/QUOTE

The insurance company does their own investigation .
Baffert doesn't collect a dime unless he is partial owner .

[Stillriledup]

I beg to differ. With today's widespread "short field" disease plaguing the industry, coupled with the way racing offices cater to trainers who enter and scratch when a field turns up tougher than they expect, the naivety swings the other way if you are going to sit there and tell me every 20% trainer deserves to be under suspicion. That kind of mindset just doesn't reflect the current macro state of the game...

This is generally correct that a high win percentage isnt necessarily 'red flag' time, but what makes my red flag go up is the WAY a certain trainer's horses race and win. The percentage isnt as important as HOW that percentage was accomplished.

If a trainer is winning 27% and most of his winners are 3-5 shots that were claimed for 20k and are now running for 10k, he's just winning races that anyone could win.

But, if he's claiming one for 10k and that horse wins 5 in a row with double digit Beyers and wins 100k in purses in a month, that opens my eyes more than his 27% win percentage.

Each horse and situation needs to be taken into context because context is a major part of it.

[cj]

[QUOTE=cj]Exactly why I mentioned naivety.

Any word on if these horses were insured, and if so, were they policies redeemed? That would be a hell of a story.[/QUOTE

The insurance company does their own investigation .
Baffert doesn't collect a dime unless he is partial owner .

No kidding. I didn't ask if Baffert collected. Did the owners?

[nijinski]

[QUOTE=nijinski]

No kidding. I didn't ask if Baffert collected. Did the owners?

Haven't heard anything about the mortality insurance . One owner I believe
owned three of the horses . I'm sure that the insurance co. was very
interested in those cases .

[Dark Horse]

I'm stunned how many polar opposite viewpoints there are in this thread.

Back to the reason this thread was started. Bob Baffert is cheating. The record proves this. He likely has been for many years. It was likely the reason he has so many big races won in the mid to late '90's. He is third on the violation list. I'm not saying anything that isn't factual.

To think that Baffert wouldn't "jeopardize" his previous success and standing is absurd. These guys live off the adrenaline of winning. These horses died due to a trainer trying to take an edge and keep his grasp on a high performing program. To think otherwise is silly.



In short, people have opposing views, but anybody who doesn't see things your way is silly.

Now that we have that cleared up...

I agree with the opposing views part. What surprises me is that people dig in their heels based on assumptions (often rooted in ignorance). In my view it's a fluid and flexible situation that can be viewed from many angles, without any need to come to a premature conclusion. The most interesting of these assumptions is the one that horse trainers couldn't possibly know something that the public is unaware of. Example. People were always on Dutrow. How could he turn around claimers so fast?! Clearly he was cheating! Turns out he claimed them because he perceived hind end problems, which he knew he could fix, and which, when fixed, will show dramatic improvement. Note how it sets a stage. The public doesn't know this, but agrees that something is off. Now the trainer runs a horse on a week's rest and the horse wins. This is not supposed to happen. Conclusion. He cheated. Proof? Well, the earlier perception of course. It reminds me of a crowd of people who can't play the piano, agreeing that the concert pianist is a cheat. And I would not think it completely out of the realm of possibilities if the public clamoring had an influence on regulating bodies, who seek to maintain an acceptable degree of public perception. Media such as the NY Times are part of this problem, because they play public perception with half truths that they know the public is not going to check. Any world turns into a mess when it becomes about public perception, easily influenced with half truths, rather than actual facts. And that unscientific approach is not going to clear up a complex problem such illegal medication in horse racing.

[MNslappy]

People were always on Dutrow. How could he turn around claimers so fast?! Clearly he was cheating! Turns out he claimed them because he perceived hind end problems, which he knew he could fix, and which, when fixed, will show dramatic improvement. Note how it sets a stage. The public doesn't know this, but agrees that something is off. Now the trainer runs a horse on a week's rest and the horse wins. This is not supposed to happen. Conclusion. He cheated.

Wait, you think THESE are the reasons people think Dutrow was/is a cheater? What are you saying here exactly, that he was just so good as a trainer he was misunderstood? Unfairly maligned? Really? You think the majority of the betting public, the NY State Racing Board and the Kentucky Horse Racing Commission are all wrong about him?

[Dark Horse]

Wait, you think THESE are the reasons people think Dutrow was/is a cheater? What are you saying here exactly, that he was just so good as a trainer he was misunderstood? Unfairly maligned? Really? You think the majority of the betting public, the NY State Racing Board and the Kentucky Horse Racing Commission are all wrong about him?

I picked him on purpose. But he's not the point.

[Stillriledup]

I picked him on purpose. But he's not the point.

This one's for Phil

http://www1.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do?NID=101289&subs=0&arc=0

[Track Phantom]

In short, people have opposing views, but anybody who doesn't see things your way is silly.

Now that we have that cleared up...

I agree with the opposing views part. What surprises me is that people dig in their heels based on assumptions (often rooted in ignorance). In my view it's a fluid and flexible situation that can be viewed from many angles, without any need to come to a premature conclusion. The most interesting of these assumptions is the one that horse trainers couldn't possibly know something that the public is unaware of. Example. People were always on Dutrow. How could he turn around claimers so fast?! Clearly he was cheating! Turns out he claimed them because he perceived hind end problems, which he knew he could fix, and which, when fixed, will show dramatic improvement. Note how it sets a stage. The public doesn't know this, but agrees that something is off. Now the trainer runs a horse on a week's rest and the horse wins. This is not supposed to happen. Conclusion. He cheated. Proof? Well, the earlier perception of course. It reminds me of a crowd of people who can't play the piano, agreeing that the concert pianist is a cheat. And I would not think it completely out of the realm of possibilities if the public clamoring had an influence on regulating bodies, who seek to maintain an acceptable degree of public perception. Media such as the NY Times are part of this problem, because they play public perception with half truths that they know the public is not going to check. Any world turns into a mess when it becomes about public perception, easily influenced with half truths, rather than actual facts. And that unscientific approach is not going to clear up a complex problem such illegal medication in horse racing.

Wow. Hard to read, understand or comprehend.

[nijinski]

I'm stunned how many polar opposite viewpoints there are in this thread.

In my opinion, I believe the poster who said he is "suspicious of anyone winning in the high 20% range and above" is absolutely correct. In the cleanest of times, this would be suspicious. It is even more so when you consider they are winning at this high percentage INTO a pool of other trainers taking an edge.

I've noticed (very peripherally) that Shug McGaughey is winning more than he used to. I could be way off here but I thought he was in the low teens for a long time. Now, I believe he is in the 20% range and winning on grass, which he never really did. Is he cheating? I would love to say no, as I really like the guy...but how can you not be suspicious?

We are not suspicious of these things because we are skeptical, jaded jerks. Every one of us who is negative on here would MUCH rather be rejoicing in the great accomplishments. The industry has put us in this corner by its failure to deal with the problem. We don't trust the industry to be forthcoming, honest or have even the slightest concern.

Back to the reason this thread was started. Bob Baffert is cheating. The record proves this. He likely has been for many years. It was likely the reason he has so many big races won in the mid to late '90's. He is third on the violation list. I'm not saying anything that isn't factual.

To think that Baffert wouldn't "jeopardize" his previous success and standing is absurd. These guys live off the adrenaline of winning. These horses died due to a trainer trying to take an edge and keep his grasp on a high performing program. To think otherwise is silly.

Take this data to an underwriter and see what the possibility is that these horses died of natural causes. There aren't enough zero's in the calculator to capture the exact percentage.

The problem I see with your opinion and particulaly your last two sentences is this .
IMO anyone whomever would send there horse out with a substance , knowing that they might die is a serious and cruel offender .They would also be lacking any guilt or remorse . That's bordering on sociopath .
I would sooner think that someone else is tampering with the horses .
Baffert has been in the public eye for many years now . I would agree with you that he is driven to win . But I don't think it's at the expense of his horses safety and survival . I've never heard of any animal cruelty claims .

I do get the impression you and a few others don't like trainers like him perhaps because their horses are not great betting value . I don't know this for sure and I'm not making judgements . It's lies between perception and a guess .



.

[Dark Horse]

Wow. Hard to read, understand or comprehend.

Plain English? You don't know what the f*ck you're talking about, but are not bothered by that, because you think it's about winning an argument.

[iceknight]

So Baffert will have no runners this Derby...

http://www.wdrb.com/story/22106750/baffert-wont-start-a-horse-in-kentucky-derby

Any connections to Baffert at all, or do you think it is an owner's call based on the horse's chances?

[Stillriledup]

Paynter wins, Baffert is back, all is forgiven, Baffert is loved again! :D

[nijinski]

" Put that in your pipe and smoke it " !

[Stillriledup]

" Put that in your pipe and smoke it " !

Sorry for bumping an "ancient" post, but what's going on with the Baffert "investigation"? I did read the CHRB press release saying that Baffert is "innocent of all charges" but i havent heard much more about what really happened to those horses who died in his care.

[speed]

[QUOTE=Stillriledup]Sorry for bumping an "ancient" post
3 week old post you bumped. That's like 15 minutes for most others. :)

[Mineshaft]

didn't know Baffert was under investigation. What for?

[Stillriledup]

didn't know Baffert was under investigation. What for?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/11/sports/california-examines-puzzling-trend-of-horses-sudden-deaths.html?ref=bobbaffert

[Longshot6977]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/11/sports/california-examines-puzzling-trend-of-horses-sudden-deaths.html?ref=bobbaffert

The article is 1/4 year old (April 10, 2013), DOH! It was published before the last post was written that you bumped. Does anyone have a recent update?

[Stillriledup]

The article is 1/4 year old (April 10, 2013), DOH! It was published before the last post was written that you bumped.

That's what you call "Stale info!" :D

[nijinski]

Akkadian collapsed and died today following a workout . It's very depressing , all these sudden deaths on the West Coast this year . :(

Please note that the 5 yo gelding was "not" from Bafferts barn .

RIP !

[Stillriledup]

Akkadian collapsed and died today following a workout . It's very depressing , all these sudden deaths on the West Coast this year . :(

Please note that the 5 yo gelding was "not" from Bafferts barn .

RIP !

It was extremely hot there when this happened, probably hotter than its been in years, i don't think that any of Baffert's horses who died did so in this kind of heat.

[nijinski]

It was extremely hot there when this happened, probably hotter than its been in years, i don't think that any of Baffert's horses who died did so in this kind of heat.

Well then I guess the Baffert haters should not be concerned about this
one , or the the thirty other non Baffert sudden deaths that were reported
from there the past two years . Ok then .

[Charli125]

Well then I guess the Baffert haters should not be concerned about this one , or the the thirty other non Baffert sudden deaths that were reported from there the past two years . Ok then .


Ridiculous statement. Nobody is saying that they "don't care" about other horses dying.

Everyone thinking with a clear head simply sees a disproportionately large number of deaths from the Baffert barn, and would like someone to hear why. Pretty reasonable expectation.

[nijinski]

Ridiculous statement. Nobody is saying that they "don't care" about other horses dying.

Everyone thinking with a clear head simply sees a disproportionately large number of deaths from the Baffert barn, and would like someone to hear why. Pretty reasonable expectation.

Not ridiculous and the number is unusually and unfortunately more than we'd ever want to see , though not as disproportionate as one might think . That is because they really don't pay attention to the numbers of these deaths in smaller barns . Finally they are getting reported but in most cases not,investigated .
On 6/20 and 6/26 a horse racing and another horse training collapsed and died . Both at Finger Lakes .
Cheap horses so no one mentions it .
Again on the West Coast 5/27 Singletary Blitz suddenly dies , from W Morey barn .
I only point these out to bring some clarity to an area that rarely gets
researched or discused . That is of course until it happened in Bafferts barn . It's obviously not as rare as the recent reports are saying .

I don't see Baffert as a heartless person who would inflict any harm on any of his horses and highly doubt that any wrong doing will be found .

[Stillriledup]

Not ridiculous and the number is unusually and unfortunately more than we'd ever want to see , though not as disproportionate as one might think . That is because they really don't pay attention to the numbers of these deaths in smaller barns . Finally they are getting reported but in most cases not,investigated .
On 6/20 and 6/26 a horse racing and another horse training collapsed and died . Both at Finger Lakes .
Cheap horses so no one mentions it .
Again on the West Coast 5/27 Singletary Blitz suddenly dies , from W Morey barn .
I only point these out to bring some clarity to an area that rarely gets
researched or discused . That is of course until it happened in Bafferts barn . It's obviously not as rare as the recent reports are saying .

I don't see Baffert as a heartless person who would inflict any harm on any of his horses and highly doubt that any wrong doing will be found .

Whether wrong doing will be found or not, you seem to be suggesting that they shouldnt' even bother looking into it in the first place. You seem to be upset that they're even digging to see if there's something more than meets the eye. Why would you not want a full investigation?

As far as it being 'unusual' yeah, its unusual.

This article uses the word "unusual" for what happened.

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/Apr/11/california-horse-deaths/

[nijinski]

Whether wrong doing will be found or not, you seem to be suggesting that they shouldnt' even bother looking into it in the first place. You seem to be upset that they're even digging to see if there's something more than meets the eye. Why would you not want a full investigation?

As far as it being 'unusual' yeah, its unusual.

This article uses the word "unusual" for what happened.

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/Apr/11/california-horse-deaths/
Not at all , I think they absolutely had to investigate and I would like to see many more breakdowns and sudden deaths at all tracks thoroughly checked out . It's the lack of trust and support and loyalty for someone who's done so much for this sport that I find terribly disappointing .
Anyone who has with intention , hurt any of these horses is a sewer rat to me.
I can't believe the intention would be there with BB .I believe he's truly
baffled and upset . But that's my opinion and I hope it's proven right .

[Stillriledup]

Not at all , I think they absolutely had to investigate and I would like to see many more breakdowns and sudden deaths at all tracks thoroughly checked out . It's the lack of trust and support and loyalty for someone who's done so much for this sport that I find terribly disappointing .
Anyone who has with intention , hurt any of these horses is a sewer rat to me.
I can't believe the intention would be there with BB .I believe he's truly
baffled and upset . But that's my opinion and I hope it's proven right .

What exactly has Baffert done for the sport?

[nijinski]

What exactly has Baffert done for the sport?

Let's just say it goes beyond two Derby wins . You don't have to agree with me that he's up there with the great trainers . but I happen to think he's
top flight and a class act .
He made me a believer with what he did with Silver Charm .

[Mineshaft]

Let's just say it goes beyond two Derby wins . You don't have to agree with me that he's up there with the great trainers . but I happen to think he's
top flight and a class act .
He made me a believer with what he did with Silver Charm .



Real Quiet too 17K purchase

[Stillriledup]

Let's just say it goes beyond two Derby wins . You don't have to agree with me that he's up there with the great trainers . but I happen to think he's
top flight and a class act .
He made me a believer with what he did with Silver Charm .

I'm not saying he's not a great trainer and i'm not even going to say he's not a class act, but what does all that "do" for the sport?

[nijinski]

I'm not saying he's not a great trainer and i'm not even going to say he's not a class act, but what does all that "do" for the sport?

His past accolades alone make his presence shipping in to any track a
a good deal . You really have to be kidding . he often brings excitement to
the Triple Crown and the BC , no? . He's probably one of the most photographed trainer of all time . Why is that ? Must be the white hair I guess . LOL .

[Stillriledup]

His past accolades alone make his presence shipping in to any track a
a good deal . You really have to be kidding . he often brings excitement to
the Triple Crown and the BC , no? . He's probably one of the most photographed trainer of all time . Why is that ? Must be the white hair I guess . LOL .

No, i get it, i understand that part, i'm still not sure how that does something for the game, people don't go to the track because Baffert's name is on the program nor do they 'tune in' on TV to see him 'train'. How exactly does all that stuff benefit the GAME?

[rastajenk]

What exactly has Baffert done for the sport?
What have you done for the sport?

[Stillriledup]

What have you done for the sport?

Pay the freight with my wagers. I support the purses every time i bet.

[Mineshaft]

No, i get it, i understand that part, i'm still not sure how that does something for the game, people don't go to the track because Baffert's name is on the program nor do they 'tune in' on TV to see him 'train'. How exactly does all that stuff benefit the GAME?






Hate to burst ur bubble but they do go to the track to see Baffert especially when he ships. That in turns lead to more betting dollars for the track and bigger payouts if his horses run out the money. So yes if Baffert has a horse running, people do go see him. Hope that helps you..

[Stillriledup]

What have you done for the sport?

Don't feel insulted, nijnski said Baffert had done a lot for the sport, i'm just asking what he's done (for the sport, not for himself).

[Mineshaft]

Pay the freight with my wagers. I support the purses every time i bet.




Really you are making ur self look dumb. Everyone here supports the purses. Your not the only one. Baffert supports the purses when he enters horses and sometimes enters 2 in the same race.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm not saying he's not a great trainer and i'm not even going to say he's not a class act, but what does all that "do" for the sport?Come on man...he's one of the few household names when it comes to horse racing. Lukas and Baffert...and Zito to a lesser extent...those were the household names during their triple crown runs that spanned many, many years.

Considering the dearth of household names when it comes to racing, especially nowadays, I'd say that alone "did" something for the sport.

[rastajenk]

He might even bet from time to time, thus supporting the very purses he's competing for. Double support! :cool:

[Jeff P]

What exactly has Baffert done for the sport?As a Director on the TOC (Thoroughbred Owners of California) Board, he had a hand in bringing us 22.68% exacta takeout. As a TOC Director, he's also played a role in stopping repeated attempts by SOCAL players and track management to get the 2 horse bets part of the takeout increase rolled back.

It's kind of hard for me to overlook that.


-jp

.

[Stillriledup]

Hate to burst ur bubble but they do go to the track to see Baffert especially when he ships. That in turns lead to more betting dollars for the track and bigger payouts if his horses run out the money. So yes if Baffert has a horse running, people do go see him. Hope that helps you..

So, bettors go to the track not to bet and try and win money, but to maybe get a glimpse of Bob Baffert who may or may not be in attendance?

I don't understand your point about tracks making more money if Baffert has a horse in the race, are you saying people bet more that they usually bet if Bob has a horse running? I know personally, if Baffert has a 4-5 shot first time starter in a 2 year old race at Del Mar, i'm more likely to SKIP the race than to bet on it.

[PaceAdvantage]

Hate to burst ur bubble but they do go to the track to see Baffert especially when he ships. That in turns lead to more betting dollars for the track and bigger payouts if his horses run out the money. So yes if Baffert has a horse running, people do go see him. Hope that helps you..And they definitely tune into the big races when he has a horse going. I know more than one casual fan who has tuned in specifically because of him....

[Stillriledup]

Come on man...he's one of the few household names when it comes to horse racing. Lukas and Baffert...and Zito to a lesser extent...those were the household names during their triple crown runs that spanned many, many years.

Considering the dearth of household names when it comes to racing, especially nowadays, I'd say that alone "did" something for the sport.

So, what you're saying is that if Baffert retired tomorrow, people who normally tune in to see the Triple Crown races on tv, would stop tuning in? Is there really anyone out there who is a racing fan who would leave the sport specifically because Bob Baffert retired?

[Mineshaft]

So, bettors go to the track not to bet and try and win money, but to maybe get a glimpse of Bob Baffert who may or may not be in attendance?

I don't understand your point about tracks making more money if Baffert has a horse in the race, are you saying people bet more that they usually bet if Bob has a horse running? I know personally, if Baffert has a 4-5 shot first time starter in a 2 year old race at Del Mar, i'm more likely to SKIP the race than to bet on it.



Yes bettors go bet his 3/5 1st time maidens all the time. That's money in the tracks pocket. You might not bet his maidens but a lot of people do. With his track record with Maidens and other horses they bet Bafferts horses it don't matter what the odds are.

[nijinski]

No, i get it, i understand that part, i'm still not sure how that does something for the game, people don't go to the track because Baffert's name is on the program nor do they 'tune in' on TV to see him 'train'. How exactly does all that stuff benefit the GAME?

Those same folks including myself who would like to get a shot of a
favorite horse while at the track might also like to get Baffert in their frame ,
He's a pretty popular trainer , in case you didn't know .

I think your just trying to push buttons at this point .

[Stillriledup]

As a Director on the TOC (Thoroughbred Owners of California) Board, he had a hand in bringing us 22.68% exacta takeout. As a TOC Director, he's also played a role in stopping repeated attempts by SOCAL players and track management to get the 2 horse bets part of the takeout increase rolled back.

It's kind of hard for me to overlook that.


-jp

.

I love it! :ThmbUp:

[Mineshaft]

And they definitely tune into the big races when he has a horse going. I know more than one casual fan who has tuned in specifically because of him....





Baffert came to Delta Downs one time to run a horse in the Delta jackpot. I drove my ass one hour just to see him. Didn't bet the race but I went to see him and his horse run.

[Stillriledup]

Those same folks including myself who would like to get a shot of a
favorite horse while at the track might also like to get Baffert in their frame ,
He's a pretty popular trainer , in case you didn't know .

I think your just trying to push buttons at this point .

Im not disputing that people might want to get his picture....i just dont know how that helps the game.

[Stillriledup]

Baffert came to Delta Downs one time to run a horse in the Delta jackpot. I drove my ass one hour just to see him. Didn't bet the race but I went to see him and his horse run.

Have you only visited Delta Downs one time in your life?

[PaceAdvantage]

So, what you're saying is that if Baffert retired tomorrow, people who normally tune in to see the Triple Crown races on tv, would stop tuning in? Is there really anyone out there who is a racing fan who would leave the sport specifically because Bob Baffert retired?Now you've changed the rules of the game. I'm done.

[Mineshaft]

Have you only visited Delta Downs one time in your life?





Really? I don't go to the Delta Jackpot too many people. But Baffert went one year so I decided to go see him and his horse. And yes ive been to Delta plenty of times.

Next stupid question please.....

[rastajenk]

I think your just trying to push buttons at this point.
And at every point.

[speed]

Folks, don't waste you're time.

[Stillriledup]

And at every point.

Do you want to answer the question?

[Stillriledup]

I understand there are a large contingent of Baffert fans posting in this thread. I apologize to each and every one of you if there has been some misunderstanding at what i was trying to ask. I don't want to insult you or your idol, but i think that a question i asked got a little out of hand, people were throwing all sorts of responses out at me trying to explain why Baffert has "done a lot" for the game.

Let me rephrase the question this way.

If Bob Baffert retired tomorrow, all his star horses would go to other trainers and the show would go on without him. In what way would the game "suffer" or "take a hit" if he left? Would national handle suffer? Would fans stop watching racing on tv and stop attending the tracks to see live racing?

Maybe when Nijinsky said (in post 101) he's done "so much for this sport" maybe he meant that he's carved out a good living for HIMSELF and his accomplishements in the sport are top shelf? I understand, he's a racing legend for sure, he's done a lot IN this game, but what he's done FOR the game is an entirely different argument. (one that i appear to be losing :D )

[nijinski]

I understand there are a large contingent of Baffert fans posting in this thread. I apologize to each and every one of you if there has been some misunderstanding at what i was trying to ask. I don't want to insult you or your idol, but i think that a question i asked got a little out of hand, people were throwing all sorts of responses out at me trying to explain why Baffert has "done a lot" for the game.

Let me rephrase the question this way.

If Bob Baffert retired tomorrow, all his star horses would go to other trainers and the show would go on without him. In what way would the game "suffer" or "take a hit" if he left? Would national handle suffer? Would fans stop watching racing on tv and stop attending the tracks to see live racing?

Maybe when Nijinsky said (in post 101) he's done "so much for this sport" maybe he meant that he's carved out a good living for HIMSELF and his accomplishements in the sport are top shelf? I understand, he's a racing legend for sure, he's done a lot IN this game, but what he's done FOR the game is an entirely different argument. (one that i appear to be losing :D )

You are right m Baffert carved out a good living for himself .
Let's look at Point Given for an example . Don't you think
the owners , breeders and jockey made out as well . Actually
very well .
I'm done now , I think the point was made , no pun intended .

[johnhannibalsmith]

...Let me rephrase the question this way.

...

What did Wayne Gretzky do for the sport of hockey?

Come on, you don't have to be a Baffert fan to understand what someone that is a high profile "face of the game" sort of figure in any given industry actually does for that which he is representing in that capacity.

I don't quite feel the same way about him that a lot of others do, but you're just being silly playing a game of semantics and willfully ignoring the obvious answer to your rhetorical posture.

[Stillriledup]

What did Wayne Gretzky do for the sport of hockey?

Come on, you don't have to be a Baffert fan to understand what someone that is a high profile "face of the game" sort of figure in any given industry actually does for that which he is representing in that capacity.

I don't quite feel the same way about him that a lot of others do, but you're just being silly playing a game of semantics and willfully ignoring the obvious answer to your rhetorical posture.

Do you think that when Muhammad Ali was fighting, people would go to the boxing match to watch Angelo Dundee?

[Stillriledup]

You are right m Baffert carved out a good living for himself .
Let's look at Point Given for an example . Don't you think
the owners , breeders and jockey made out as well . Actually
very well .
I'm done now , I think the point was made , no pun intended .

Point Taken. ;)

[johnhannibalsmith]

Do you think that when Muhammad Ali was fighting, people would go to the boxing match to watch Angelo Dundee?

I don't even get that analogy. Saying that trainers are to the sport of horse racing as referees are to the sport of boxing just doesn't work for me. Consider that in most of the handicapping threads most people seem to put a premium on trainer stats and I'm already lost on the analogy. Consider that novice fans recognize Baffert but not his horse and I'm even more lost. Consider that advertisements on television for broadcasts always include a "Baffo shot" and now I can't begin to get within earshot of what you're going for.

[Jeff P]

Just so you know... Angelo Dundee was Ali's trainer. If I'm not mistaken, he also handled Sugar Ray Leonard and George Foreman.

I think the point SRU was trying to make is that the athlete is the star and arguably does more for the sport than the trainer.


-jp

.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Just so you know... Angelo Dundee was Ali's trainer. If I'm not mistaken, he also handled Sugar Ray Leonard and George Foreman.

I think the point SRU was trying to make is that the athlete is the star and arguably does more for the sport than the trainer.


-jp

.

Ooops on the referee part... laf... but I know what he's going for... I just don't think that in the case of horse racing it really applies the way it would in boxing. Do you?

Do you think that more people know who Baffert is or who Game on Dude is?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd be fairly shocked if it tilted towards the latter.

Why am I even jumping in another go-nowhere SRU stream of consciousnesslessness? :D

[Saratoga_Mike]

.

Why am I even jumping in another go-nowhere SRU stream of consciousnesslessness? :D

We're all occasionally sucked into SRU's world....and of course you're right about Baffert (and I'm not a fan of his).

[johnhannibalsmith]

...about Baffert (and I'm not a fan of his).

Neither am I particularly. Nor Lukas, really.

But in terms of marketing the sport and "brand recognition", I think that both have been borderline invaluable (to the extent that anything has actually been a help) over the last couple of decades. Nothing is more mundane than a televised racing event where the main attraction is Mr. Personality Pletcher. Thankfully now they have Rosie versus the male dominated universe when Baffert and Lukas aren't around to give them something to spotlight that humans will identify with and recognize.

[Jeff P]

Do you think that more people know who Baffert is or who Game on Dude is?

Sadly, I'm thinking Baffert has more name recognition than Game On Dude.

But go back in time a few years and ask the same question: Baffert or Silver Charm? And I think the answer changes.

This leads to an area of the game where I think things are "broken."

Horses in today's game don't make as many starts as the horses of just 20 or 30 years ago. Because of that, racing is up against it when it comes to creating new fans.

I grew up in Arizona. One of the reasons I was initially drawn to racing was that the charts for Turf Paradise were published in the sports section of the morning newspaper. As teenager I used to read the charts for Turf Paradise in the local paper (along with the standings and stats for the NBA, NFL, and MLB.)

Back then many of the horses ran back every 10-14 days or so. Because of that I began recognizing the names of some the better athletes on the grounds. (That same exact process was the spark that resulted in me becoming a lifelong baseball fan.)

I recall being about 14 and opening the paper one Sunday morning. And discovered much to my joy that a horse who I had been following by name was going for his 4th consecutive win that afternoon. So I did what any 14 year old racing fan would do... I asked my Dad to take me to the track so we could watch him run.

Much tougher for that same spark to ignite in 14 year old today.

Horses don't run back as often. And if you ask me, that's an outright shame.



-jp

.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...
I grew up in Arizona. One of the reasons I was initially drawn to racing was that the charts for Turf Paradise were published in the sports section of the morning newspaper. As teenager I used to read the charts for Turf Paradise in the local paper (along with the standings and stats for the NBA, NFL, and MLB.)

...
Much tougher for that same spark to ignite in 14 year old today.

...
.

To this I can certainly relate. Basically the same first introduction. Being eight, nine, eating a bowl of breakfast cereal on top of the sports page and reading all the box scores from baseball and the entries and results from horse racing. Didn't have any idea about much of what it all meant, but I read it every day until I did. I too doubt very much that too many kids today are enjoying that.

[nijinski]

Just so you know... Angelo Dundee was Ali's trainer. If I'm not mistaken, he also handled Sugar Ray Leonard and George Foreman.

I think the point SRU was trying to make is that the athlete is the star and arguably does more for the sport than the trainer.


-jp

.
There is no doubt that the horses are the stars . They make it the Sport of Kings for me . They are the beauty and the spirit of this sport .

I guess many more here would have been a fan of BB's if they had the 20-1
on War Emblem . lol.
We'll never know if WE would have come that close or had the chance of
winning the TC in Springer's barn . We do know that Baffert made some equipment changes entered him, switched to a hot jock , and held him together for a very exciting Triple Crown bid . No disrespect to the former trainer , he did a good job with what was a handful of a horse .
Just one of many of the stars trained by BB that have many followers .
I myself happened to have great memories of Silverbulletday .

[Stillriledup]

Just so you know... Angelo Dundee was Ali's trainer. If I'm not mistaken, he also handled Sugar Ray Leonard and George Foreman.

I think the point SRU was trying to make is that the athlete is the star and arguably does more for the sport than the trainer.


-jp

.

I'm not necessarily suggesting that the horse does "more" for the sport than the trainer, what i'm trying to get at is that people don't go to the races to see the "behind the scenes" caretaker "do his thing".

Some were trying to tell me that Baffert does help the sport in some way because of his high profile horses....but, those horses he had would have been just as good in any other barn, a great horse is a great horse, its not like Silver Charm or Point Given would have been 5k claimers with other trainers.

Unless, of course, somehow a person thinks that Baffert has a 'magic way' with those horses and they wouldnt have been great without him, well, that's an entirely different discussion.

[nijinski]

I'm not necessarily suggesting that the horse does "more" for the sport than the trainer, what i'm trying to get at is that people don't go to the races to see the "behind the scenes" caretaker "do his thing".

Some were trying to tell me that Baffert does help the sport in some way because of his high profile horses....but, those horses he had would have been just as good in any other barn, a great horse is a great horse, its not like Silver Charm or Point Given would have been 5k claimers with other trainers.

Unless, of course, somehow a person thinks that Baffert has a 'magic way' with those horses and they wouldn't have been great without him, well, that's an entirely different discussion.

There is of course a chance that these horses may have done well in other barns . There is a reason why when they spent all that money and they went to Baffert though .

[PaceAdvantage]

To this I can certainly relate. Basically the same first introduction. Being eight, nine, eating a bowl of breakfast cereal on top of the sports page and reading all the box scores from baseball and the entries and results from horse racing. Didn't have any idea about much of what it all meant, but I read it every day until I did. I too doubt very much that too many kids today are enjoying that.Yes, but then again, nobody reads newspapers anymore either, compared to back then anyway...so racing is doubly screwed now I guess...

[Stillriledup]

Any updates on Red Tesla?

(pulled up from a race at Santa Anita on Apr 6th)

Baffert seems to have closed down his twitter account after he was asked by racing fans to provide updates. Not sure if the asking about the updates and the closing of the twitter are related.

[Stillriledup]

Any updates on Red Tesla?

(pulled up from a race at Santa Anita on Apr 6th)

Baffert seems to have closed down his twitter account after he was asked by racing fans to provide updates. Not sure if the asking about the updates and the closing of the twitter are related.

So, i guess if you close out Twitter, its like a telephone number and someone else can get the domain?

https://twitter.com/Midnightlute

7 dead horses, all but forgotten.