INSIGHTS INTO PRESIDENTS BUSH'S RESERVE DUTY

[delayjf]

This man flew with Pres Bush.
http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20040210-082910-8424r.htm

[ljb]

And here is another link.
http://www.memphisflyer.com/content.asp?ID=2834&onthefly=1

[delayjf]

Sometimes they will transfer temporarily to another unit to keep them on the active list until they can return home. The receiving unit often has little use for a transitory member, especially in a high-skills category like a pilot, because those slots usually are filled and, if not filled, would require extensive conversion training of up to six months, an unlikely option for a temporary hire.

Take it from someone in the Reserves, this happens all the time.

But, if you insist. I'd be in favor of bring Bush up on charges if we could do the samething to Jane Fonda, Kerry and Clinton.

Here is what Gen Giap thinks of Kerry and Fonda
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/2/10/222651.shtml

[Secretariat]

Here's another.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1117247&mesg_id=1117389&page=

[ljb]

Yowser secretariat, That's a good link too bad we can't get Lefty to view it.;)

[JustRalph]

http://www.clubforgrowth.org/

[Tom]

And another link:

wvw.enoughalready.com

[ljb]

Or you could try this one, it's fresh off the press today.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/02/14/1076548270715.html

[cato]

delayjf: The article you cited relies heavily on Col North's analysis. Is that Col North, the convicted felon?

Cato

[cato]

If the democrats were smart (which they aren't), they would leave this alone and let it die. They are starting to look like the republicams when they went on their witch hunts against Clinton during his administration.

Anyone with any sense, (whether republican or democrat) knows that Bush took the easy way out by going into the Guard during the Viet Nam era. And we all know that he got in due to the political influence of his family.

Okay, big deal..almost enyone else during that time, given that alternatie would have grabbed it and run with it.

Factor that into your evaluation of the man and go on.

Let's move on to the issues instead of this horse s**t.

Cato

[Lefty]

ljb, since you mentioned my name i'll respond. The facts are Bush has an honorable discharge. Case closed. Kerry went on to become a Senator, case closed. I don't care about Kerry's association with Fonda, or Bushes National guard because in the context of being fit to Be Pres. they don't mean a whole lot. Bush is the Commander In Chief and he has been superb at it. He has mounted a war on terrorism and he's cut taxes and revived the recession he inherited so the future is looking good on that front. Can you quit Bush bashing and try to tell me what Kerry intends to do that will be better than what Bush has already accomplished? That's what's gonna win the election: current accomplishments. Bush has many. Kerry's all negative. There ya go.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by cato
If the democrats were smart (which they aren't), they would leave this alone and let it die. They are starting to look like the republicams when they went on their witch hunts against Clinton during his administration.

Anyone with any sense, (whether republican or democrat) knows that Bush took the easy way out by going into the Guard during the Viet Nam era. And we all know that he got in due to the political influence of his family.

Okay, big deal..almost enyone else during that time, given that alternatie would have grabbed it and run with it.

Factor that into your evaluation of the man and go on.

Let's move on to the issues instead of this horse s**t.

Cato

I agree completely (not that my opinion amounts to a hill of beans when all is said and done....)

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by cato
delayjf: The article you cited relies heavily on Col North's analysis. Is that Col North, the convicted felon? Cato

I believe those convictions were overturned on appeal. The same with Admiral Poindexter.

You know, Ollie North was a War Veteran in Vietnam......

I guess some of you guys would vote for him if he was running for President huh?

[Larry Hamilton]

If I agree with your conclusions, do I have to agree with your method of debate?

"If Democrats were smart..." Just because on this site we have 3, (perhaps 4 now as I see we have added one recently) of the most wrong-headed humans to grace the planet who are dems does not justify this blanket statement.

...Like Republicans on a witch hunt against Clinton. This implies that Clinton was NOT guilty of everything with which he was charged. It also implies that the stuff of which he was accused is not important. IT IS. His character matters most of all in a position of leadership.

Now you state that only those smart people found a way out of viet nam, implying the rest of us (500,000 ALL TOLD) were stupid.

Then, out of nowhere, you make claim that ALL of us know something that we have no way of knowing--that Bush got out of assignment to Nam, using political influence.

I disagree with you on so many levels, especially your conclusion. Above all else, character must matter.

All of this leads me to my own conclusions--If we cant trust Kerry to be on ONE side of an issue (hawk or dove) how are we gonna believe anything that comes out of his mouth? MOve on? Move on to what? He is for war in Iraq, but doesnt want to fund it? I, too, am ready to move on, just as soon as everyone on this site admits -- Kerry cant be trusted and the proof is what comes out of his own mouth.

Some of you seem to think that Bush's character is somehow connected to Kerry's character, that one somehow justfies the other. They are independent and separate assessments.

====================

re: Oliver North

First, his rank was LtCol not Col. The difference is enormous to service members. The denomination, LtCol, puts him in the Marine Corps or the Air Force. That rank qualified him to command several hundreds of marines (Battalions), while the rank of COL may command upwards of several thousand (Brigade/Groups)

Second, you claim his analysis faulty because he was "a convicted felon." If what he said was wrong, discard it because of content.

=========================

I cant belive that I started this at 4 in the morniing, spent over two hours on it, knowing full well I will get a reaction that resembles, "I know you are, but what am I?"

========================

Recently, I asked myself, at what point in my life did I understand the difference between liberals and conservatives? I realized that I had known the difference all my life but without knowing the labels. As a young person not really caring about politics, the thing I disliked most were politicians we called "do-gooders". Their defining characteristics were:

1) They had their hand in my pocket to fund their projects.

2) THeir Projects were endless.

3) Their Projects often created more harm than good.

As to conservatives, I didnt know what those guys were, but I did know what there were NOT.

As you might guess, in this election, I dont know who is the liberal and who is the liberal. They all look liberal to me, including Bush. And, to confound all this, yesterday, I heard one of the news anchors refer to Kerry the moderate....Geeeeeeez the guy in the senate with the most liberal voting record, even more than Kennedy, is called a moderate....

What I fear is happening is that Bush is running away from his conservative base, to the political side that doesnt want him. The good thing about that is that it will keep Mrs. Clinton out of the white house for 8 years.

I have far too much free time on my hands. Any of youze guys need someone to carry their brief case?

[ljb]

Jr said:
You know, Ollie North was a War Veteran in Vietnam......

I guess some of you guys would vote for him if he was running for President huh?

Are you serious here Jr? Cause a group of us are working on getting a replacement for Bush. Tom and Lefty are considering going for David Berkowitz. I have agreed to join their coalition would you be interested or are you stuck on Ollie?
If Ollie is your man I will see if I can get Tom and Lefty to switch to him. Let me know, I'm trying to put together a strong force here. I know if you join Tom, Lefty and Me, Pa wont be far behind.
Your's for a better America for all. :D

[Lefty]

lbj, I also blve you are trying to get Jane Fonda to run with Kerry as his Vice President. You a busy lil liberal, ain'tcha?

[ljb]

Lefty,
Please see my note on your, Kerry supporters thread. Thank you

[Tom]

I would vote for Lt.Col Oliver North were he to ever run.
I would vote for Stormin' Norman Schwatrzcauf if he were to run.

[JustRalph]

Originally posted by Tom
I would vote for Lt.Col Oliver North were he to ever run.
I would vote for Stormin' Norman Schwatrzcauf if he were to run.

If we had listened to these guys in 91 we wouldn't be in this mess in Iraq now. Those two wanted to go all the way to Bahgdad then.........

[Lefty]

JR, but we listened to the U.N. the same damn bunch that guys like lbj, and sec want to be in charge now.

[cato]

Larry, in response to a post by Cato (I think) said, among other things;
"If I agree with your conclusions, do I have to agree with your method of debate?

"...Like Republicans on a witch hunt against Clinton. This implies that Clinton was NOT guilty of everything with which he was charged. It also implies that the stuff of which he was accused is not important. IT IS. His character matters most of all in a position of leadership.

Now you state that only those smart people found a way out of viet nam, implying the rest of us (500,000 ALL TOLD) were stupid.

Then, out of nowhere, you make claim that ALL of us know something that we have no way of knowing--that Bush got out of assignment to Nam, using political influence"
_____________________

I do imply that Clinton was not guilty of all the stuff he was charged with....he was investigated and "probed" for almost his entire administration and about all the could come up wth is that he lied about he lied about his relationship with Ms. Lewinsky. ANd I do agree with you that Chracter is most important (see below about Ollie North)
ANd clearly Clinton has some serious character flaws.

I NEVER, NEVER said that only smart people found a way out of Viet Nam or implied that the folks who served were stupid. The people who sreved in Viet Nam were heroes. As brave as they come. Please re-read my post so we don't get off track here. I said that "Anyone with any sense, (whether republican or democrat) knows that Bush took the easy way out ..." This is not in any way an attack, slam or anything else against the brave men who served

Then you say that he have no clues and have no knowledge that Bush was able to get into the Guard due to political connections. Now come on...Why BS us? Why deny reality? He moved to the front of a LONG list of kids who wanted in the guard and was able to become a pilot even though he scored at the BOTTOM of the class taking the test. Seriously, I don't think this is much of an issue but people becuase this happened 30+ years ago and we have much more recent and more importnat information on which to judge the man...but in my own opinion, people who are in denial on this lose credibility.

Now lets talk bout character. Ollie North's name gets thrown around here a LOT and in conservative circles he is listed as a "hero" and a "patriot", etc. He is a convicted felon. Here's a brief summary from Lawrence Walsh, the staunchly conservaticve special prosecutor who looked into Ollie's activities

"To embrace covert action without legal authorization, to set up a slush fund in Switzerland for use in covert actions designed by people like General Secord and Colonel North without the approval of Congress and to impair the effort to recover the hostages by trying to profiteer, all of those were crimes in no unquestionable way. And similarly, to lie to Congress, when Congress is trying to exercise its oversight responsibilities is an outright crime." --

LAWRENCE WALSH

He was convicted of several felonies, including, I believe, obstructing justice and/or perjury, and while those felonies were overturned on appeal, it was NOT because Ollie was innocent, it was becasue certain evidence was excluded from use based on the exclusionary rule of evidnce that most conservatives hate, notwithstandingthe fact that it saved Ollie's bacon.

So Ollie is a real live, convicted felon. I'm always baffled about how/why people who thing/say character counts continue to embrace convicted felons like North (and don't even get me started on G. Gordon Liddy...)

That's it for the night.

Take care,

Cato

[delayjf]

Crato,
North was simply quoting what Gen Giapp had written in his memoirs. If you believe he's mis-quoted him or that the statements is not historically accurate, please provide the evidense of such.

To All,

IMHO, his efforts, along with likes of Hanoi Janes undermined and gave support to the NVA war effort. Without that support, the NV were to the point of giving up. It is historical fact that he lied in his testimony to Congress about the wide-spread attrocities that were being committed by US troops in Vietnam. He later admitted that he never witnessed any of the attrocities he testified to in Congress. In addition, some of the "eye witnesses" have sence been proven to be frauds. It was the American peace movement that encouraged the NV into the Tet Offensive. The Tet offensive costs American lives.

Kerry was a big part of that movement, his medals not withstanding. I have a hard time mitigating the fact that he personally saved a few lives while serving in Vietnam, with the fact that his actions in the US helped lead to the biggest battle in the War's history, and costs many thousand of US lives.

I have no doubt that Pres Bush did very little when assigned to the Alabama Unit. I don't know how many times I've seen Officers show up for drill sometimes when we have nothing for them to do, especailly when they drill with a unit that they don't normally belong to. They are really making a mountain out of a mole hill.

With regard to Jane Fonda, I can't tell you how sick I get watching her laugh and play around on that AA gun as if she were on some ride at Disneyland. According to Admiral Stockwell and others, her presence in NV got Americans killed. She should be tried for treason. Kerry supported her (and vise-versa) and marched with her, that the photo of them on stage together is a fake, is a matter of convience to Kerry supporters only; it could have just as easily been real.

[ljb]

delayjf,
All rhetoric aside. One man defended his country under fire. This same man later exercised his rights as a free American, and protested the war.
Another man used his connections to avoid combat duty.
This same man later went awol from his assigned responsibilities.

Which of these two really shows character? Be Honest.

[Lefty]

lbj, you constantly pickup the rhetoric and lies of the left? Bush AWOL has been proven false time and again but the left doesn't deal in facts only accusation.
One man has a proven record as Commander In Chief and defends this country against all terrorists. The other has said he would turn that job over to the U. N.

Why does all this war stuff count so big now when you all, Kerry included, defended Clinton's draftdodging? Hmmmm?

Delay, many thanks for your service.
Kerry? HELL NO!

[ljb]

Lefty,
You may want to look up the definition of AWOL.
Was Clinton a draft dodger? What party is Clinton running in this year?
It is obvious by your signature that you have no interest in Kerry so, I have another inducement to get you in my camp on the upcoming republican convention, interested? I won't say exactly what it is but it will mean more goodies for you.

[Lefty]

Th question about Clinton goes to your, Kerry's and the entire left's character. Kerry defended Clinton by saying Vietnam shouldn't matter. Now all of a sudden it does matter. Which is it?
Bush was not AWOL. You know it, Kerry knows it, the entire left knows it. But facts do not matter to them obnly vitriol against Bush.
Bush as proved himself as Commander In Chief. Kerry has proved by his voting record he would not be a good Commander In Chief.

BTW, a good humorist knows when to end a "bit" You are not a good or even passable humorist. As a man who has sold jokes to cartoonists and bits to comedians, I know whereof I speak.

[delayjf]

Ljb,

IMO, providing aid and comfort to the enemy, is not rhetorical.
I have no problem with those who protest against the war. I do however; take exception with the manner in which, Fonda, Hayden, and yes John Kerry, lied to the Press, distorted the truth and encouraged our enemies into another 5 years of bloody conflict. Maybe it's me, but I can't get past that.

Perhaps you don't believe that historical account of the Vietnam War, that's fine. But as I have studies the Vietnam War, it all very well documented, and I believe it to be true. LtCol North did not make up Gen Giap's statements used in that article.

Now we are hearing from other officers that do recall Bush, they claim that he read manuals etc while sitting in his office. I've seen this scenario a hundred times, guy shows up to complete drills, but there's nothing for him to do. Today, he'd just find some desk and surf the internet for eight hours.

I have no doubt that his father did help him get into the Guard and that he had a lot of advantages that other did not, but so what, that's life.

[ljb]

delayjf,
You have documented proof that Kerry gave aid and comfort to the enemy?

[Larry Hamilton]

Guys, If you address a comment to me and I dont respond, please consider that I am NOT ignoring you. I have seen you comment and your response, judged them dull, incorrect, illogical, or bull shit and will remain quiet in an attempt to save you the further embarrassment of continuing. Thank me for my effort.

[ljb]

Lefty,
OK, but what about my offer?

[delayjf]

I suppose we are dealing with sematics now as to what the definition of "aid and comfort" is. I believe the anti war extremist were in fact guilty of that. Jane Fonda with her trip to Hanoi was IMHO treasonous. Perhaps there are some Military Lawyers out their that can give a legal definition as to what "aid and comfort" means.

[Secretariat]

Thought this was an interesting editorial relating to the thread title.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/021204C.shtml

[Lefty]

just another anti-bush opinion piece. My bet is more Vietnam vets will be against Kerry and not for him. And that's my opinion.

[Tom]

Originally posted by ljb
delayjf,
All rhetoric aside. One man defended his country under fire. This same man later exercised his rights as a free American, and protested the war.
Another man used his connections to avoid combat duty.
This same man later went awol from his assigned responsibilities.

Which of these two really shows character? Be Honest.

I suggest you provide PROOF of that statement. Anything less than that leaves YOU the liar. Again.
In the eyes of the armed forces, the jsutice department, and the whole damn governemtn, Bush was NOT AWAOl. There are no charges, no investigations, only documents and witnesses who say he was there and a trail in press, who sell themselves for $.50 a day. Where is the PROOF, boy?

[ljb]

Tom,
I suggest you look up the definition of AWOL. Anything less makes you ignorant again.
There are many things that happen without charges etc. Kenny boy comes to mind. Just because charges have not been brought yet doesn't mean crimes have not been commited.

[Tom]

Originally posted by ljb
Tom,
I suggest you look up the definition of AWOL. Anything less makes you ignorant again.
There are many things that happen without charges etc. Kenny boy comes to mind. Just because charges have not been brought yet doesn't mean crimes have not been commited. \
Yet?
Geeze, you would think if they were going to charge him, they would have done it long ago.
30+ years and you think this is an acceptable time frame to bring charges, but under a year for WMD and the world has to stop?
Uh, could you define "ignorant" for me?
I don't think are using the word you really want to.
Also, please look up the word "proof" in the dictionary. I think you might not understand that word either. I suspect you have the words "proof" and "more BS" confiused.
It would really help this board flow along smoother, ya know?

[Lefty]

Tom, there are a lot of words missing from lbj's vocabulary apparantly. The word FACT come to mind.

[ljb]

Tom said
Geeze, you would think if they were going to charge him, they would have done it long ago.
Tom you have to consider who we are talking about here. This guy had connections remember.
Lefty if you keep flaming me, I will have to report you to the board moderator. Also it looks bad in our campaign, I was thinking of either you or Tom as my campaign manager.
Come on guys lets get over this little spat and be friends again. Its for the good of the country.

[PaceAdvantage]

LJB, you gotta point there....tone down that flaming you flamers.

[delayjf]

Lbj,

I'm not going to attempt to equate the equality of service during the Vietnam war between Bush and Kerry. It's true that Bush never served in Vietnam and Kerry did. However, Bush did serve and he did risk his life flying Jets in the Air Guard. I flew helo's in the Marine Corps and I need all my fingers and toes to count the Marines I personally know who died flying in peace time.

And, by the way, National Guard units were deployed to Vietnam, but by 72 as the war was drawning down none to my knowledge were.

This whole thing of was he there, he wasn't there. Now two officers have come forward saying they did in fact see him in Alabama. In the reserves, I've gone at least 8 months and not done a single drills only to make them up supporting an exercise at the end of the year, all with the blessing of the Command. I've gone two years at times without getting a physical, again, no bid deal. I defy anyone to name one reserve member who was ever court marshaled for missing a physical.

[ljb]

OK,
However my opinions on this thread were posted in response to what I concieved as an attempt at white washing of President Bush's actual record.

[Lefty]

lbj, remember when Howard Dean whined to the DNC chairman to keep the other Dems from attacking him? You remind me of that. A whiner. You can dish it out but can't take it.
So gather up your marbles, little boy, and get outta the game.

That was not a flame but a personal assessment of the writings of lbj. I submit to the court that truth is always a perfect defense.

[ljb]

Lefty,
Your ignorance seems to be having a flare up. Did you take your medications today? If you are short, we know someone who can get them for you.;)