Race 7 mountaineer Sunday 3/24

[horses721]

The 8 (elmor) didn't win the race. I guess the judges had money on D Parker so he was the winner in their wallets. This track is a joke! Do yourself a favor, don't bet Mountaineer. Several people here get excited about some donkey winning an occasional race and paying $80 to win. If that works for you, great, but I refuse to deal with crooked judges and race 7 tonight was a perfect example of why you don't play sh!t tracks like Mountaineer.

I forgot, this is a track with slots. They don't care about how they might screw over/mistreat people that play races. We are the least of their priorities!

[duncan04]

Sounds like someone is a sore loser

[horses721]

Did you see the replay LOSER?

[judd]

[QUOTE=horses721]The 8 (elmor) didn't win the race. I guess the judges had money on D Parker so he was the winner in their wallets. This track is a joke! Do yourself a favor, don't bet Mountaineer. Several people here get excited about some donkey winning an occasional race and paying $80 to win. If that works for you, great, but I refuse to deal with crooked judges and race 7 tonight was a perfect example of why you don't play sh!t tracks like Mountaineer.

I forgot, this is a track with slots. They don't care about how they might screw over/mistreat people that play races. We are the least of their priorities![/QUOTE


one of my fav tracks :D

[johnhannibalsmith]

Did you see the replay LOSER?

I assumed you were under the impression that they called the photo wrong, but with this mention of the replay, I'm completely lost.

[Stillriledup]

The 8 (elmor) didn't win the race. I guess the judges had money on D Parker so he was the winner in their wallets. This track is a joke! Do yourself a favor, don't bet Mountaineer. Several people here get excited about some donkey winning an occasional race and paying $80 to win. If that works for you, great, but I refuse to deal with crooked judges and race 7 tonight was a perfect example of why you don't play sh!t tracks like Mountaineer.

I forgot, this is a track with slots. They don't care about how they might screw over/mistreat people that play races. We are the least of their priorities!

I just watched the replay, the 8 got a great bob right on the line, im not sure what race you were watching.

[duncan04]

Like I said. Sounds like a sore loser :ThmbDown:

[HuggingTheRail]

I thought when stewards and judges bet it was on the longshots...not the 1-5's?? :confused:

[Stillriledup]

I thought when stewards and judges bet it was on the longshots...not the 1-5's?? :confused:

They want the longshots to win to create carryovers. :D

[SharpCat]

They want the longshots to win to create carryovers. :D


Big 2 day pick 6 carryover at the Mountain tomorrow. A whopping $514.

[mountainman]

Back when I was a placing judge, the stewards would sometimes direct irate players and horsemen to the placing stand for us to placate. The idea was that a quick tutorial on the process and a close up look at the photo would make it obvious we'd made the right call.

The truth was, they came only to argue, and, believe it or not, one or two became violent. Most memorably, some stout, venom- spewing chick with a gutload of booze and respectable guns. Despite our best efforts and diplomatic approach, she refused to chill, and when the next race started and i'd focused on my duties, i heard muffled cries from a (large male) coworker for help. Abandoning my post, i rushed out into the hall and found her sitting astride him and landing haymakers-i mean solid punches that did damage. After pulling her off, i dragged her to the elevator-mainly by the hair-heaved her inside, and pressed the down button.

She still trains horses at thistledown, and ships here on occasion. She has not revisited the placing stand.

[jdhanover]

Periodically this comes up (about photos). I think every track should have a slow motion camera right on the finish line. That coupled with the photo resolves this kind of thing. some finish line cameras are slightly before or after the line making it optically deceiving.

[davew]

Some tracks haxe close photos / dead heats posted on their website (or at least in the replay). I think it is a good idea, because there are always people on the other side who feel they got robbed by a head bob.

[PhantomOnTour]

Periodically this comes up (about photos). I think every track should have a slow motion camera right on the finish line. That coupled with the photo resolves this kind of thing. some finish line cameras are slightly before or after the line making it optically deceiving.
The finish line camera (or photo finish camera) is DIRECTLY on the line at ALL tracks...the track feed when watching the race may not always show a "flush" finish line in actual motion, but the camera used to determine placings is most definitely on the line.

[mountainman]

The finish line camera (or photo finish camera) is DIRECTLY on the line at ALL tracks...the track feed when watching the race may not always show a "flush" finish line in actual motion, but the camera used to determine placings is most definitely on the line.

Lots of players still fail to comprehend how the "slit" camera works.

[MightBeSosa]

After pulling her off, i dragged her to the elevator-mainly by the hair-heaved her inside, and pressed the down button.



We've seen ya mountain, when they hire you , they get a bouncer as a bonus!

[Pensacola Pete]

The 8 (elmor) didn't win the race.

Not even close. I watched the replay. The winner's nose touched the line first. What happened five feet earlier or later doesn't count.

[mountainman]

We've seen ya mountain, when they hire you , they get a bouncer as a bonus!

Can still bench 300. Took decades to overcome a bad temper. My brother Gary is the dude to not mess with.

[PhantomOnTour]

Can still bench 300. Took decades to overcome a bad temper. My brother Gary is the dude to not mess with.
So why didn't you just "bench press" that angry woman trainer?
Or did she exceed 300lbs?
:D

(next time send Gary to deal with her)

[mountainman]

So why didn't you just "bench press" that angry woman trainer?
Or did she exceed 300lbs?
:D

(next time send Gary to deal with her)
LOL..i WOULD NEVER HIT A WOMAN--EVER, BUT SHE LEFT ME NO CHOICE EXCEPT TO DRAG HER TO THE ELEVATOR...NOT MY FINEST HOUR, TO BE SURE..BUT SHE WAS PUMMELING MY COWORKER.

[appistappis]

I love the mountain....figure out the nuances and you'll make some money.

[5k-claim]

Did you see the replay LOSER? Shut up. You lost.

.

[Aner]

Periodically this comes up (about photos). I think every track should have a slow motion camera right on the finish line. That coupled with the photo resolves this kind of thing. some finish line cameras are slightly before or after the line making it optically deceiving.

Some minor tracks have a wire high above the finish line but right on the line which makes it easier to see how horses finish. Why can't all tracks use this aid?

[therussmeister]

some finish line cameras are slightly before or after the line making it optically deceiving.
I always look for the mirror. The mirror is the finish line as far as the camera is concerned, and yes, some tracks have the mirror a considerable distance (several feet) from the pole.

[nvemil]

Many of the quarterhorse tracks and a few of the T-Bred signals fill the time between the horses the crossing the wire and the winner coming back for the winners circle by showing a ground level slo-mo replay from a video camera placed in proximity of the finish line.

This goes a long way to at least for me to reconcile a pan shot that may not have the truest of angles when looking at these finishes to seperate the runners.

Also brings to mind a recent incident at one of the SAF tracks:

http://www.timeslive.co.za/opinion/columnists/2013/03/22/racing-is-such-a-riot

[Jeff P]

Periodically this comes up (about photos). I think every track should have a slow motion camera right on the finish line. That coupled with the photo resolves this kind of thing. some finish line cameras are slightly before or after the line making it optically deceiving.

Fully agree.

I saw this thread and was working on the following long winded write up last night...



Most of us reading and posting here at Paceadvantage have followed thoroughbred racing for a really long time. FYI, my first betting visit to a track as an adult was in 1981. By now most of us know where the finish line is. But that knowledge didn’t come easy and it didn’t come overnight.

I submit to you the idea that when it comes to race replays, finish lines, and photo finishes: Racing in North America provides a video experience that is sorely lacking – especially in the eyes of the new would be racing fan – and especially when compared to the video replays offered by other sports.

It’s not like watching a baseball replay where the replay camera is properly aligned on the base and the video itself comes from a high enough quality camera and an experienced enough operator that you are given a high quality slow motion replay where you get to see an enlarged view of the play itself as it unfolds (the base, the runner, the glove and the ball all converging in one spot.)

In racing, if you are watching the live track signal feed or a replay from a ground level camera – watching a close finish and making the call takes local knowledge.

The video cameras used to produce the live track signal feed, and at those tracks that have them, the ground level cameras used to produce slow motion replay, are just about never mounted in the correct place. They aren’t placed in direct alignment with the finish line. They are placed several feet off to the left or the right of the finish line. Even more confusing, placement to the left or right varies from track to track.

Consider the finish line itself. Looking at video of the Mountaineer finish line from last night’s races, I see several objects in the immediate vicinity of the finish line. There’s a ladder that leads up to a stand. There’s a red cone. Then, there’s a mirror. The one thing that isn’t there – someone please correct me if I am wrong – is a pole or wire clearly labeled with the word Finish.

To be fair, this experience is not limited to Mountaineer. One thoroughbred meet that I follow is Evangeline Downs. There, they do have an actual pole marked Finish. But that is not the finish line. The actual finish line at Evangeline is a mirror located several feet to the right of the pole marked Finish.

But that experience is not limited to Evangeline. I’ve seen other tracks that have a pole marked Finish. At some of those tracks the actual finish line is located before the horses reach the pole marked Finish. Still other tracks are just like Evangeline in that the actual finish line is located a few feet to the right of the pole marked Finish.

Every track is different.

Keeneland actually has a big white pole marked Finish. FYI, Nick Nicholson told me that pole is made out of styrofoam for safety reasons. At Keeneland, there is a mirror located smack dab in the midpoint of that pole and believe it or not that’s where the actual finish line is located. Well at least for most of Keeneland’s races. Keeneland also uses an alternate finish line located near the sixteenth pole for some of their races – as does Gulfstream.

Getting back to Keeneland for a second. They mostly get it right. They have a big white pole clearly marked Finish and the actual finish line is located smack dead center in the midpoint of that pole. (What a novel idea.)

But - try watching a slow motion replay of the stretch run when a race run at Keeneland involves several horses in a close finish.

Neither the video camera used to produce the track signal nor the camera used for ground level slow motion replay as the horses near the finish line are mounted directly on the finish line. They are mounted off to the side.

That makes it tough for the viewer – especially the new would be racing fan – to make the call as to who won a close race – even after watching slow motion replay of the finish several times.

Let's move on to photo finishes. I have actually had the experience of meeting with track personnel responsible for photo finishes – who have graciously taken the time to demonstrate the photo finish process to me in its entirety. Because of that I’m convinced that photo finishes and order of finish posted by placing judges is correct in something that approaches 99% plus accuracy in 99% plus of all cases.

However, the photo finish process leaves me wanting because of what racing doesn’t do compared to what other sports do. Racing is behind the times and it shows every single time a photo finish takes place.

How many times have you been watching a baseball game and seen a runner try to steal second base? Even in Spring Training games the slow motion video replay is outstanding. The camera is of high enough quality and is positioned in such a way that the viewer is given a clear unobstructed enlarged slow motion view of the play as it unfolds. The viewer clearly gets to see the base, the runner’s leg as he is sliding towards the base, the fielder’s glove awaiting the ball, the ball as it approaches the fielder’s glove – and the tag as it is applied just before the runner’s leg reaches the base - or the runner’s leg reaching the base just before the tag.

Point is, after watching the slow motion replay, in 98% plus of all cases - the viewer has enough input from the video to make the call.

The video is of high enough quality that the viewer can act out the role of umpire – and make the right call more often than the umpire can (who has to do it live while sometimes out of position and without the added benefit of seeing a replay.)

I’ve watched thousands of baseball games since 1981 (the year I made my first visit to a race track as an adult.) Major League Baseball has been getting it right my entire adult life.

What would it take for racing to get it right?

To me, getting it right means a modern high quality, high speed, slow motion video replay camera mounted just above ground level on the grandstand side of the stretch right at the finish line – not just near where most of us think the finish line might be - but mount the camera at an exact and direct right angle to a clearly marked object that is in fact the actual finish line!

That way – when the high quality replay is played back in slow motion to the bettors – everybody watching can make the call - and determine the exact order of finish.

Photo finishes in racing do not contain anything in the actual photo that enables the viewer to identify the physical finish line. However, there is a “cartooned in” line added to the photo by track personnel. In other words the actual photo is doctored by track personnel to show a finish line.

C’mon. This is 2013. Not 1937.

What if high quality replay images taken from a camera mounted at an exact right angle to a clearly marked finish line - where the replay images show the nose of the winning horse breaking the plane of the finish line - with a clearly marked physical finish line visible in the background of the image – What if THAT were available and was replayed to the bettors for every race finish?

What if the final frame of the above described video replay – frozen at the exact point in time when the nose of the race winner breaks the plane of the finish line – again with the clearly marked physical finish line clearly visible in the background of the image – What if this were used as further evidence in support of the official photo? (The one based on 1937 technology with the cartooned in line?)

I say put both up on the track website right next to each other and display both right next to each other after each race as part of the track signal.

What if Mountaineer had such a camera in place? And had been able to show such a replay? And had posted the final frame from the high quality replay next to the official photo finish with the cartooned in line?

If just one track would provide that experience – I can’t help but think racing’s stock goes up from an integrity standpoint – especially in the eyes of the new would be racing fan.



-jp

.

[mountainman]

Fully agree.

I saw this thread and was working on the following long winded write up last night...



Most of us reading and posting here at Paceadvantage have followed thoroughbred racing for a really long time. FYI, my first betting visit to a track as an adult was in 1981. By now most of us know where the finish line is. But that knowledge didn’t come easy and it didn’t come overnight.

I submit to you the idea that when it comes to race replays, finish lines, and photo finishes: Racing in North America provides a video experience that is sorely lacking – especially in the eyes of the new would be racing fan – and especially when compared to the video replays offered by other sports.

It’s not like watching a baseball replay where the replay camera is properly aligned on the base and the video itself comes from a high enough quality camera and an experienced enough operator that you are given a high quality slow motion replay where you get to see an enlarged view of the play itself as it unfolds (the base, the runner, the glove and the ball all converging in one spot.)

In racing, if you are watching the live track signal feed or a replay from a ground level camera – watching a close finish and making the call takes local knowledge.

The video cameras used to produce the live track signal feed, and at those tracks that have them, the ground level cameras used to produce slow motion replay, are just about never mounted in the correct place. They aren’t placed in direct alignment with the finish line. They are placed several feet off to the left or the right of the finish line. Even more confusing, placement to the left or right varies from track to track.

Consider the finish line itself. Looking at video of the Mountaineer finish line from last night’s races, I see several objects in the immediate vicinity of the finish line. There’s a ladder that leads up to a stand. There’s a red cone. Then, there’s a mirror. The one thing that isn’t there – someone please correct me if I am wrong – is a pole or wire clearly labeled with the word Finish.

To be fair, this experience is not limited to Mountaineer. One thoroughbred meet that I follow is Evangeline Downs. There, they do have an actual pole marked Finish. But that is not the finish line. The actual finish line at Evangeline is a mirror located several feet to the right of the pole marked Finish.

But that experience is not limited to Evangeline. I’ve seen other tracks that have a pole marked Finish. At some of those tracks the actual finish line is located before the horses reach the pole marked Finish. Still other tracks are just like Evangeline in that the actual finish line is located a few feet to the right of the pole marked Finish.

Every track is different.

Keeneland actually has a big white pole marked Finish. FYI, Nick Nicholson told me that pole is made out of styrofoam for safety reasons. At Keeneland, there is a mirror located smack dab in the midpoint of that pole and believe it or not that’s where the actual finish line is located. Well at least for most of Keeneland’s races. Keeneland also uses an alternate finish line located near the sixteenth pole for some of their races – as does Gulfstream.

Getting back to Keeneland for a second. They mostly get it right. They have a big white pole clearly marked Finish and the actual finish line is located smack dead center in the midpoint of that pole. (What a novel idea.)

But - try watching a slow motion replay of the stretch run when a race run at Keeneland involves several horses in a close finish.

Neither the video camera used to produce the track signal nor the camera used for ground level slow motion replay as the horses near the finish line are mounted directly on the finish line. They are mounted off to the side.

That makes it tough for the viewer – especially the new would be racing fan – to make the call as to who won a close race – even after watching slow motion replay of the finish several times.

Let's move on to photo finishes. I have actually had the experience of meeting with track personnel responsible for photo finishes – who have graciously taken the time to demonstrate the photo finish process to me in its entirety. Because of that I’m convinced that photo finishes and order of finish posted by placing judges is correct in something that approaches 99% plus accuracy in 99% plus of all cases.

However, the photo finish process leaves me wanting because of what racing doesn’t do compared to what other sports do. Racing is behind the times and it shows every single time a photo finish takes place.

How many times have you been watching a baseball game and seen a runner try to steal second base? Even in Spring Training games the slow motion video replay is outstanding. The camera is of high enough quality and is positioned in such a way that the viewer is given a clear unobstructed enlarged slow motion view of the play as it unfolds. The viewer clearly gets to see the base, the runner’s leg as he is sliding towards the base, the fielder’s glove awaiting the ball, the ball as it approaches the fielder’s glove – and the tag as it is applied just before the runner’s leg reaches the base - or the runner’s leg reaching the base just before the tag.

Point is, after watching the slow motion replay, in 98% plus of all cases - the viewer has enough input from the video to make the call.

The video is of high enough quality that the viewer can act out the role of umpire – and make the right call more often than the umpire can (who has to do it live while sometimes out of position and without the added benefit of seeing a replay.)

I’ve watched thousands of baseball games since 1981 (the year I made my first visit to a race track as an adult.) Major League Baseball has been getting it right my entire adult life.

What would it take for racing to get it right?

To me, getting it right means a modern high quality, high speed, slow motion video replay camera mounted just above ground level on the grandstand side of the stretch right at the finish line – not just near where most of us think the finish line might be - but mount the camera at an exact and direct right angle to a clearly marked object that is in fact the actual finish line!

That way – when the high quality replay is played back in slow motion to the bettors – everybody watching can make the call - and determine the exact order of finish.

Photo finishes in racing do not contain anything in the actual photo that enables the viewer to identify the physical finish line. However, there is a “cartooned in” line added to the photo by track personnel. In other words the actual photo is doctored by track personnel to show a finish line.

C’mon. This is 2013. Not 1937.

What if high quality replay images taken from a camera mounted at an exact right angle to a clearly marked finish line - where the replay images show the nose of the winning horse breaking the plane of the finish line - with a clearly marked physical finish line visible in the background of the image – What if THAT were available and was replayed to the bettors for every race finish?

What if the final frame of the above described video replay – frozen at the exact point in time when the nose of the race winner breaks the plane of the finish line – again with the clearly marked physical finish line clearly visible in the background of the image – What if this were used as further evidence in support of the official photo? (The one based on 1937 technology with the cartooned in line?)

I say put both up on the track website right next to each other and display both right next to each other after each race as part of the track signal.

What if Mountaineer had such a camera in place? And had been able to show such a replay? And had posted the final frame from the high quality replay next to the official photo finish with the cartooned in line?

If just one track would provide that experience – I can’t help but think racing’s stock goes up from an integrity standpoint – especially in the eyes of the new would be racing fan.



-jp

.

Good ideas, for sure. Years ago, the real problem was that said superimposed "cartoon" finish line could be thickened to support a dead heat call. Even if one of the noses was "buried" (placing judge terminology for past the wire), the illusion of a deadheat could be created. Decades ago, when i worked as a placing judge, my timid cohorts would occasionally call on the photo guy to so doctor a print-not with larcenous intent, but to avoid splitting hairs based on margins not apparent from the hard copy photos we were required to hang.

I used to fight with those guys CONSTANTLY and insist that even the scantest of margins should preclude a deadheat call. I was new to the trade and they considered me a malcontent rouge.

[Tom]

Not even close. I watched the replay. The winner's nose touched the line first. What happened five feet earlier or later doesn't count.

Feet?
If the damn line was 1 inch in either direction, I would be a very wealthy man!:cool:

[MightBeSosa]

Feet?
If the damn line was 1 inch in either direction, I would be a very wealthy man!:cool:

Yeah, but someone else would be broke.

[Longshot6977]

Great post Jeff. There's no reason horseracing can't get it done accurately when drag strips get it right for cars going over 320MPH and separated by only .001 seconds. Their cameras are high quality slo-mo ones directly on the finish line giving a clear vision of the finish.

Is it a possibility the horse tracks don't want to invest more money just to pacify some people every now and then when these very close finishes occur?

There needs to be a racing czar of some sort to require all tracks do the same thing the same way(not just photo finishes either) for the sport's integrity.