Ancient Greeks Smarter than us?

[Dave Schwartz]

http://usa.greekreporter.com/2013/02/22/ancient-greeks-smarter-than-us/?goback=%2Egde_1802969_member_216924732

Turns out that Socrates and his like apparently were as intelligent as they’ve been made out to be, at least according to Gerald Crabtree, Professor of Pathology and Developmental Biology at Stanford University School of Medicine.

“I would wager that if an average citizen from Athens of 1000 B.C. were to appear suddenly among us, he or she would be among the brightest and most intellectually alive of our colleagues and companions, with a good memory, a broad range of ideas, and a clear-sighted view of important issues,” he said.

[thaskalos]

There was never a doubt in my mind...

[DeltaLover]

Ancient Greeks Smarter than us?

I don't think anyone can seriously doubt it...

[Greyfox]

Dave, if you haven't already done so, read The Republic of Plato.

You'd soon be convinced that they were deep thinkers.

[DeltaLover]

Socrates remains in the central point of philosophy dividing its evolution to Presocratics and meta-socratics. Before Socrates the Greeks were dealing with natural phenomena while after him they focused more on the human, both as an individual and as society.

There is no contemporary theory presenting anything new to what they taught the humanity.

As examples I will refer to the doctoral thesis of Karl Marx which was on 'The Difference Between the Democritean and Epicurean Philosophy Of Nature', the strong influence of Plato to Heisenberg's thinking, Leucippus and Democritus as the original fathers of the atomic theory.

There is not a single sector of science, philosophy, art or political science that was not presented and originally studied by the Greeks.

While the rest of the humanity was worshiping Kings as Gods living in complete ignorance, Greeks use were debates like the differences between Rhetorics and Dialects or developing advanced mathematical concepts like conic sections for example that would have been applied to technology thousand of years later....

[Tom]

Now, if a present day Greek showed up among us, hide your wallet!:eek:

[DeltaLover]

Although modern Greece represents a very small nation of around 10 million people only, it still has to present a significant contribution to science, philosophy and art..

George Papanicolaou is one of the most important scientists of the 20th century and a great student of the father of medicine Hippocrates. His pap smear for cancer detection in women gas saved millions of lives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgios_Papanikolaou

COnstantinos Caratheodory, a student of Euclid, was one of the greatest mathematicians of the 20th century. He worked closely with Einstein contributing to the development of the special theory of relativity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantin_Carath%C3%A9odory
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/94576/Constantin-Caratheodory

Odysseas Elytis and GEORGE SEFERIS are both Nobelists for Literature proven to be great students of Homer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giorgos_Seferis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odysseas_Elytis

Aristoteles Onasis, a Heraclitus patriot was one of the greatest businessmen of the modern era..

Here you can see more about famous modern Greeks:

http://www.athensguide.org/the-greek-people.html

Greeks were proven the best allies of the free word, as expressed by USA and England, been the only continental European nation to defeat the Axis when invaded by Italians and resist for six months until been finally occupied by Germans (for comparison France who was one of the traditional super powers was occupied in a matter of few weeks)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Greece_during_World_War_II

A legendary Destroyer of the Greek Navy was given the honour to escort the surrendered Italian fleet proceeding to Alexandria (a city founded by the greatest figure not only Greece but of the whole Word history, ALEXANDER THE GREAT) leading the fleet consisting of British and other allied vessels.

http://www.hellenicnavy.gr/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=246:-d-15-1938-1943&catid=26:palaia-ploia&Itemid=&lang=en

Greece lost 10% of its total population (500,000 people) during Word War II fighting against the axis next to the allies...

[thaskalos]

Now, if a present day Greek showed up among us, hide your wallet!:eek:

No need to worry.

The present day American is not likely to carry cash in his wallet anyway...and credit cards are so easy to cancel when lost.

[ArlJim78]

No question about it.

[Dave Schwartz]

When I read the article, what I came to understand was that Greeks of the age were more INTELLIGENT, as in had higher IQs; that modern man's intelligence has suffered because of modern day tools, etc.

Of course, were an ancient Greek alive today he would lack the education. He would have to be born in this age.

[DeltaLover]

When I read the article, what I came to understand was that Greeks of the age were more INTELLIGENT, as in had higher IQs; that modern man's intelligence has suffered because of modern day tools, etc.

Of course, were an ancient Greek alive today he would lack the education. He would have to be born in this age.


Education and training have similar but not exact same meanings.

The Greeks were not confusing one with the other. Training was mostly for the poorer classes of citizens or even slaves and its purpose was to gain some type of expertize strictly on the work field, in some type of a productive activity, a craft.

Socrates for example, coming from humble origins, had to follow the profession of his father becoming a sculptor while his education was limited to the standards of an Athenian citizen, including a knowledge of Greek poets, elementary mathematics, astronomy and music. In top of this basic education he was trained as a sculptor so he can earn his living.

Wealthy Greeks used to not value technical training but were pursuing education becoming students of the brightest brains in the world history like Aristotle, Thales, Plato, Epicurus and many more. Every existing school of though was originated in Greece. Pythagoreans, Epicureans, Stoics, Cynics, Academics are just a few among them. There is no philosophical school or science that does not originate from them.

For Greeks, education was a mix of three intellectual parts: Science, Philosophy and Art. The excelled in all three of them. Even the average Athenian citizen had some exposure to all of them the State was responsible to assist the poorest to improve their education by making attendance to Tragedies available to every one. The three dimensional space of Greek education, in our days, has been substituted by technology, conformism and Hollywood shows.

Considering this, I find it hard to believe that the Greeks would lack education compared to the contemporaries. This might be true as far as training goes, but as discussed training is not equivalent to education. For the objective observer it is easy to conclude that the world, as we know it today, is not only based on the Greeks but has not been able to surpass their achievements, creating something radically new.

[thaskalos]

When I read the article, what I came to understand was that Greeks of the age were more INTELLIGENT, as in had higher IQs; that modern man's intelligence has suffered because of modern day tools, etc.

Of course, were an ancient Greek alive today he would lack the education. He would have to be born in this age.
There is "knowledge"...and then there is "intelligence".

Today...we may possess enough of one -- but we don't have enough of the other.

[DeltaLover]

There is "knowledge"...and then there is "intelligence".


Absolutely..

More than that, to add some granularity I would divide knowledge to scientific and not, in the same way we divide an art from a craft.

I would also add wisdom as another distinction.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm not buying it...the Greek pride displayed by Thask and Delta not withstanding... ;)

[Dave Schwartz]

LOL - Thask & Delta, you do realize that compared to the article, you guys are as dumb as the rest of us, right?

:lol:

[DeltaLover]

LOL - Thask & Delta, you do realize that compared to the article, you guys are as dumb as the rest of us, right?

:lol:

no doubt ;)

[thaskalos]

LOL - Thask & Delta, you do realize that compared to the article, you guys are as dumb as the rest of us, right?

:lol:
Have I implied otherwise?

[HUSKER55]

speak for yourself , dave...:D :D :D

[Steve 'StatMan']

Well, there certainly was less history to study back then.

And maybe they were smarter - not betting vs takeouts of 18-33%.

[classhandicapper]

Socrates remains in the central point of philosophy dividing its evolution to Presocratics and meta-socratics. Before Socrates the Greeks were dealing with natural phenomena while after him they focused more on the human, both as an individual and as society.

There is no contemporary theory presenting anything new to what they taught the humanity.

As examples I will refer to the doctoral thesis of Karl Marx which was on 'The Difference Between the Democritean and Epicurean Philosophy Of Nature', the strong influence of Plato to Heisenberg's thinking, Leucippus and Democritus as the original fathers of the atomic theory.

There is not a single sector of science, philosophy, art or political science that was not presented and originally studied by the Greeks.

While the rest of the humanity was worshiping Kings as Gods living in complete ignorance, Greeks use were debates like the differences between Rhetorics and Dialects or developing advanced mathematical concepts like conic sections for example that would have been applied to technology thousand of years later....

Given the current state of Greece, that begs a simple question.

What the fvck happened? :lol:

[DeltaLover]

Given the current state of Greece, that begs a simple question.

What the fvck happened? :lol:


Unfortunately is not only Greece that is facing the worst crisis of its post war history, the same applies to the majority of the European countries although it might not be so visible.

A current example can be found in Italy. Yesterday's elections revealed the mess that this part of the G8 country is going through. Everyone seem to be ecstatic with Grillo, a comedian by profession who took the elections by storm winning 25% of the voters taking advantage of the unprecedented level of corruption dominating Italy during the last decades. Similar examples can be found in most other European countries.

[BlueShoe]

if you haven't already done so, read The Republic of Plato..
Some of us are critical of this work. The concept of ruler philosophers is said to be the inspiration for modern day globalism and one world government goals and ideals according to some conspiracy theorists.

[Rookies]

Have I implied otherwise?

Thask, "some of my best friends are (of) Greek (origin)":lol:

I only have one issue with my Greek friends. You guys NEVER shut up. You think that every second of silence needs to be filled with a discourse on the entire Greek civilization and it's obvious positive influence on the world! :rolleyes: :D ;) :lol: :bang: :eek:

[DeltaLover]

Some of us are critical of this work. The concept of ruler philosophers is said to be the inspiration for modern day globalism and one world government goals and ideals according to some conspiracy theorists.


The most important contribution of the Greeks lies more in their method rather than on their actual findings and teachings. Among them we can find contracting waves of thought as we can find conclusions they had reach that were proven to be wrong.

What differentiates them from any other ancient civilization is the scientific method they developed and used. For example Pythagoras's theorem was most likely known to early civilizations of Mesopotamia, as a simple attribute of the right angled triangle. It was only in Greece that this knowledge became a science by the introduction of inductive prove, that transformed sparse geometrical knowledge to the science of mathematics as we know it today.

The same applies to philosophy starting with Thales of Miletus (who is considered to be the first known scientist), Heraclitus, Leucippus, Democritus and other 'natural' philosophers until Socrates who changed the route of humanity setting as main subject of study the human itself. His elenctic method in conjunction of the works of the earlier scientists shaped the thoughts of Plato and Aristotle who consist the pinnacle of human intellect.

Todays Western civilization is a direct descendant of the Greeks having very close relation to them. Democracy, Science, Art, Philosophy, Athleticism, Education and whatever else characterizes our era is a product of the Greeks.
Here you can read more:

http://usa.greekreporter.com/2012/07/04/4th-of-july-the-greek-influence-on-american-independence/

[Dave Schwartz]

Have I implied otherwise?

No, you have not. My comment was meant humorously. Sorry if it was not received that way.

[DeltaLover]

No, you have not. My comment was meant humorously. Sorry if it was not received that way.


Still, it gave us an interesting topic to discuss and a break from our usual handicapping confrontations.

After all horse gambling was part of ancient Greece.

Homer somewhere in ILIAD is describing a horse race providing the first even known horse racing footnotes of the whole history ;)

Greeks have been gamblers since the begining of the time

Here you can see an ancient Greek dice game:

http://alogatas.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/greeks.jpg

[barn32]

Beware of Greeks wearing sneakers.

[DeltaLover]

Here you can see a (not so) modern dice game from the early fifties hosted in an underground club:

http://alogatas.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/zaria.jpg

[Greyfox]

Some of us are critical of this work. The concept of ruler philosophers is said to be the inspiration for modern day globalism and one world government goals and ideals according to some conspiracy theorists.

The supposed people behind one world government, if there are any, aren't the Philosopher Kings that Plato had in mind. They are more likely individuals who are more interested in greed, power, population control, and preservation of their accumulated wealth to date.

[BlueShoe]

Here you can see a (not so) modern dice game from the early fifties hosted in an underground club:

http://alogatas.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/zaria.jpg

Is Nicholas (Nick the Greek) Dandolos 1883-1966 in that photo? ;) I actually saw Nick in action once in Las Vegas in the early 60's. Do not recall which club, it may have the Sands, Desert Inn, or perhaps the Dunes, all places that no longer exist. :( He was at the crap table, and as a few of us may recall, he was a notorious wrong bettor, usually playing the dont pass.

[classhandicapper]

Unfortunately is not only Greece that is facing the worst crisis of its post war history, the same applies to the majority of the European countries although it might not be so visible.

A current example can be found in Italy. Yesterday's elections revealed the mess that this part of the G8 country is going through. Everyone seem to be ecstatic with Grillo, a comedian by profession who took the elections by storm winning 25% of the voters taking advantage of the unprecedented level of corruption dominating Italy during the last decades. Similar examples can be found in most other European countries.

I am well aware of the economic fiasco that is western civilization that is now impacting the politics. We are right behind them. Markets are just giving us a little more time to destroy ourselves because we have the reserve currency.

[Tom]

The similarities between the US and Italy are scary.
On top of everything else, we, too, elected a comedian.

[DeltaLover]

Is Nicholas (Nick the Greek) Dandolos 1883-1966 in that photo? ;) I actually saw Nick in action once in Las Vegas in the early 60's. Do not recall which club, it may have the Sands, Desert Inn, or perhaps the Dunes, all places that no longer exist. :( He was at the crap table, and as a few of us may recall, he was a notorious wrong bettor, usually playing the dont pass.

http://alogatas.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/zaria.jpg

No, is not Nick.. This picture was taken in Greece back in the early 50's when Nick was still thriving in Nevada... The old guy with the hat, is George Batis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiorgos_Batis), one of the monumental figures of Greek underground music known as rebetiko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebetiko) ..

[TJDave]

he was a notorious wrong bettor, usually playing the dont pass.

That's wrong way. ;)

[BlueShoe]

That's wrong way. ;)
Wrong way, wrong, dont pass, dark side, all these terms are correct and in common useage. Since I am a trend or pattern player, when at the crap table will bet this way 50% of the time. Could care less whether the pass line players like it or not, the dirty looks when the shooter sevens out and I get paid while their bets go down bothers me not.

[DeltaLover]

Since I am a trend or pattern player, when at the crap table will bet this way 50% of the time.

Sorry, trends only exist in a fantasy world...

Take a look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler's_fallacy

[thaskalos]

Sorry, trends only exist in a fantasy world...



Tell that to the long faces who were gathered around crap table #4, all night yesterday at Rivers casino in Niles, Illinois. :)

[BlueShoe]

Sorry, trends only exist in a fantasy world.
But in the real world they do. Long ago a very sharp old time gambler taught me that actual decisions in games of chance such as craps and roulette do not behave in the same way as computer generated random number simulations predict.

[thaskalos]

But in the real world they do. Long ago a very sharp old time gambler taught me that actual decisions in games of chance such as craps and roulette do not behave in the same way as computer generated random number simulations predict.

The old-time gambler knew what he was talking about...