Taking money out of pools

[turninforhome10]

1st race at GP 4600 to win on the longhshot :6: to open the pool. Post time 1161. This is total crap anymore. If you bet your horse and the ticket is made that should be it. This is what is total pool manipulation, IMHO. I feel that once the money leaves your hands and goes through the system, that's it, end of story. The :1: goes off 3/5 and wins. Total crap.

[Stillriledup]

I agree, no more cancels. Its in place so the live tellers can catch a break if something weird happens at the end of the betting cycle and they can not get stuck with a ticket, or, something like that.

Seems that places arent too vigilant about large cancels, this stuff happens all the time. If i'm wagering from home, i dont really need Joe Teller cancelling someone's ticket after the races start, that doesnt benefit me in anyway.

[turninforhome10]

I would tend to think this is coming from online sources. Put a huge chunk on an obscure entrant, dupe the weaker parts of the public who are scratching their heads and then withdrawal and bet the original selection. It would have to mess with the exotic and multi-race wagers.

[Not4Love]

Come check out turfway park. That stuff goes on all the time. With only two days of racing each week there is all kinds of thievery.

[Stillriledup]

I would tend to think this is coming from online sources. Put a huge chunk on an obscure entrant, dupe the weaker parts of the public who are scratching their heads and then withdrawal and bet the original selection. It would have to mess with the exotic and multi-race wagers.

If its coming from an online ADW, shouldnt the host track know this is going on and put a stop to it? Or, shouldnt the ADW itself not allow it to happen?

[turninforhome10]

Then in Race 2 you get 54$ dollar horse that has been sitting on his n3l for 2 years. 42 DD?

[MightBeSosa]

when did that bet cancel?

[turninforhome10]

I am thinking with about 8 mins to post is when the money left. Approximated.

[SharpCat]

I guess i'm in the minority here. There are several scenarios in which I would cancel a large wager. If I felt my horse was not warming up properly, sweating profusely, reluctant to load, fractious in gate, backed out of the gate. I would cancel my wager under the following scenarios.

[davew]

not as bad a problem with a longshot that has a low chance of winning with money pulled 5+ minutes before start.

The ones I hate are a big favorite that keeps money in and not pulled until horses entering gate. Then when it wins instead of even money, it is 3rd favorite and pays over $8.

[cj]

I guess i'm in the minority here. There are several scenarios in which I would cancel a large wager. If I felt my horse was not warming up properly, sweating profusely, reluctant to load, fractious in gate, backed out of the gate. I would cancel my wager under the following scenarios.

If you have time to cancel, you could have just as easily waited to bet.

[SharpCat]

If you have time to cancel, you could have just as easily waited to bet.


I prefer to make my wagers before the horses come out of the paddock. I want to see the entire warm up to look for any negativity from my horse. If I see any negativity from my horse I will cancel my wager every time. It could be 5mtp or it could be post time.

[Robert Goren]

This is a minor problem to all the late money coming in. I seen pools double in size after the bell. You see horses go from 6/5 to 3/5 after bell quite often. It is because of all the prebets that are only made if a horse is such and such of odds at 0 MTP. That what needs to be stopped. If you go use that feature the last you should be able to bet is 3 MTP. I know their posters here who use that feature and I am going to get roasted over the coals what I just said. Constiantly having the pools double in the last 2 minutes is chasing new people from the game. I seen more than one first timer who swear they'd never be back after the odds on a horse they bet dropped in half after they made their bets. I had one tell me that he felt like the world's biggest sucker after it happened to him. It didn't matter to him that the horse won by 6 lengths.

[MightBeSosa]

8 mtp? Glad I asked.

There are many ways to make a mistake betting online. Wrong track, wrong horse, wrong amount.

If you were the one on the wrong end of that deal, you wouldn't be amused if you couldn't cancel.

My understanding is , that abuse of the cancel rule is monitored, but I don't have any more than that.

[MightBeSosa]

For the most part, folks complaining about big drops, especially on chalk, are without clue.

The price they see 3 mtp is a fiction to begin with. You never did pick a 3-1 shot, you picked an 8/5 shot that was posted at 3-1 3 mtp. Big diff.

I'm not even sure its the conditional wagering that is the cause, more likely the computer bettors who send it in late.

[SharpCat]

This is a minor problem to all the late money coming in. I seen pools double in size after the bell. You see horses go from 6/5 to 3/5 after bell quite often. It is because of all the prebets that are only made if a horse is such and such of odds at 0 MTP. That what needs to be stopped. If you go use that feature the last you should be able to bet is 3 MTP. I know their posters here who use that feature and I am going to get roasted over the coals what I just said. Constiantly having the pools double in the last 2 minutes is chasing new people from the game. I seen more than one first timer who swear they'd never be back after the odds on a horse they bet dropped in half after they made their bets. I had one tell me that he felt like the world's biggest sucker after it happened to him. It didn't matter to him that the horse won by 6 lengths.


So you want to tell people when they can and can't bet. If I want to make a large wager at the last second why is that a problem?

[cj]

This is a minor problem to all the late money coming in. I seen pools double in size after the bell. You see horses go from 6/5 to 3/5 after bell quite often. It is because of all the prebets that are only made if a horse is such and such of odds at 0 MTP. That what needs to be stopped. If you go use that feature the last you should be able to bet is 3 MTP. I know their posters here who use that feature and I am going to get roasted over the coals what I just said. Constiantly having the pools double in the last 2 minutes is chasing new people from the game. I seen more than one first timer who swear they'd never be back after the odds on a horse they bet dropped in half after they made their bets. I had one tell me that he felt like the world's biggest sucker after it happened to him. It didn't matter to him that the horse won by 6 lengths.

The pools doubling have very little to do with conditional wagering. Plenty of bets don't get put in because of it as well. IT has a lot more to do with the way off track bets are added to the pools.

[cj]

I prefer to make my wagers before the horses come out of the paddock. I want to see the entire warm up to look for any negativity from my horse. If I see any negativity from my horse I will cancel my wager every time. It could be 5mtp or it could be post time.

I understand, but if you are making large wagers, the rules should not allow them to be canx in my opinion. I'm not sure when this changed.

[SharpCat]

I understand, but if you are making large wagers, the rules should not allow them to be canx in my opinion. I'm not sure when this changed.


If I see some negativity from my horse why should I not be allowed to cancel my wagers?

[Stillriledup]

I prefer to make my wagers before the horses come out of the paddock. I want to see the entire warm up to look for any negativity from my horse. If I see any negativity from my horse I will cancel my wager every time. It could be 5mtp or it could be post time.

I dont understand why you would bet so early if warm up are important to you. Get an ADW and sit at home, you can wait till the last second.

[SharpCat]

I dont understand why you would bet so early if warm up are important to you. Get an ADW and sit at home, you can wait till the last second.


Someday I would love to play from home. I like to be early so I can the the post parade and warm up. There are things I look for negativity wise from a horse. If I see any of those things I will cancel my bet. I don't want to be in a position where I miss some negativity from my horse because i'm at the sam making my wagers.

[Stillriledup]

Someday I would love to play from home. I like to be early so I can the the post parade and warm up. There are things I look for negativity wise from a horse. If I see any of those things I will cancel my bet. I don't want to be in a position where I miss some negativity from my horse because i'm at the sam making my wagers.

But CJ's point was that if you have time to run up and cancel, you also have time to run up and bet...you can watch the entire post parade, watch the odds and fluctuations, watch the warmups and THEN run to the window and play. If you're running up to cancel a ticket, you are not only missing what's happening warmupwise at 1 and 2 MTP, but you're probably putting yourself in a position to not be able to find the winner. If you bet the 1 horse and then dont like what you see, do you have the ability to cancel the 1 and bet the 2? (for example)

Get used to betting late........i can see if its a big day and its really crowded, but most days arent big days, most days you can get a bet in at the last moment.

[SharpCat]

But CJ's point was that if you have time to run up and cancel, you also have time to run up and bet...you can watch the entire post parade, watch the odds and fluctuations, watch the warmups and THEN run to the window and play. If you're running up to cancel a ticket, you are not only missing what's happening warmupwise at 1 and 2 MTP, but you're probably putting yourself in a position to not be able to find the winner. If you bet the 1 horse and then dont like what you see, do you have the ability to cancel the 1 and bet the 2? (for example)

Get used to betting late........i can see if its a big day and its really crowded, but most days arent big days, most days you can get a bet in at the last moment.


I can understand where you guys are coming from. I'm extremely selective in my wagers. I have never cancelled a wager on a horse then bet another one. It's possible that I could have a 2nd horse qualify if my 1st choice shows negativity but it has not happened once in 10 years.

[PaceAdvantage]

What tracks let you cancel a wager after you've left the window? I thought most tracks don't allow such a thing?

I know NYRA doesn't allow adjustments, including cancellations, after you leave the window. It says so right in the track program... :lol:

SharpCat is able to cancel wagers at the track well AFTER he's left the window?

[njcurveball]

What tracks let you cancel a wager after you've left the window? I thought most tracks don't allow such a thing?



At any track in NJ, you can simply put the ticket in a machine and cancel the bet. It might not work if the wager is more then $500, so people will simply make multiple bets in that case.

On 4njbets, you simply hit the wager and then the cancel button.

[SharpCat]

What tracks let you cancel a wager after you've left the window? I thought most tracks don't allow such a thing?

I know NYRA doesn't allow adjustments, including cancellations, after you leave the window. It says so right in the track program... :lol:

SharpCat is able to cancel wagers at the track well AFTER he's left the window?


I can just cancel my wagers at the sam machine. Should I not be allowed to cancel wagers if I don't like the way my horse is warming up?

[Robert Goren]

What tracks let you cancel a wager after you've left the window? I thought most tracks don't allow such a thing?

I know NYRA doesn't allow adjustments, including cancellations, after you leave the window. It says so right in the track program... :lol:

SharpCat is able to cancel wagers at the track well AFTER he's left the window? I canceled a wager at twinspires on an AQU race yesterday at 0 MTP because I realised I had punched the wrong number. Of course, the horse won.

[senortout]

The conditional wager has 'flushed the toilet' on the odds you hope to obtain. Of course if you set 3-1 as your minimum acceptable odds and 'flush the toilet' at 1 minute to post, you cannot hope to obtain the desired odds. So, eliminating the conditional odds bet would benefit all of us(in that some of us would not wait so long to make our bets, and a more accurate representation of final odds would once more be viewable) Just my opinion of course. Why, after all, should adw accounts not add their monies into the pools in a manner more approaching what happens at the track...it dribbles in starting when the windows open, in some instance on the eight race before the first race has been run.......get more real, get us back to that scenario. I know they are capable of this. Point of order...can you go to the teller give him your wager, and tell him to watch the tote and at the last second put your money in, but only if your desired odds are obtained....you shouldn't be able to do this without being at that window talking to that teller at that exact moment...if a teller does this for you, he should be let go. (He shouldn't be doing favors for some, and not others). But that's not living in the real world now is it?


For the most part, folks complaining about big drops, especially on chalk, are without clue.

The price they see 3 mtp is a fiction to begin with. You never did pick a 3-1 shot, you picked an 8/5 shot that was posted at 3-1 3 mtp. Big diff.

I'm not even sure its the conditional wagering that is the cause, more likely the computer bettors who send it in late.

[davew]

I canceled a wager at twinspires on an AQU race yesterday at 0 MTP because I realised I had punched the wrong number. Of course, the horse won.

thats why I leave my mistakes go, it was fate...

[njcurveball]

The conditional wager has 'flushed the toilet' on the odds you hope to obtain. Of course if you set 3-1 as your minimum acceptable odds and 'flush the toilet' at 1 minute to post, you cannot hope to obtain the desired odds. So, eliminating the conditional odds bet would benefit all of us(in that some of us would not wait so long to make our bets, and a more accurate representation of final odds would once more be viewable) Just my opinion of course. Why, after all, should adw accounts not add their monies into the pools in a manner more approaching what happens at the track...it dribbles in starting when the windows open, in some instance on the eight race before the first race has been run.......get more real, get us back to that scenario. I know they are capable of this. Point of order...can you go to the teller give him your wager, and tell him to watch the tote and at the last second put your money in, but only if your desired odds are obtained....you shouldn't be able to do this without being at that window talking to that teller at that exact moment...if a teller does this for you, he should be let go. (He shouldn't be doing favors for some, and not others). But that's not living in the real world now is it?


I posted this in 2007. Pretty visionary, huh? ;)


Wait till more on-line services get a conditional wagering interface. You can only push the time back so far with post time being relative to when the starter pushes the button.

With a conditional bet of 1 minute to post at a track like Charles Town, getting 5-1 may mean you still wind up with 8-5 when they cross the finish line.

If you think odds are dropping crazy now, wait till the conditionals target the overlays in the pools.

It is a much different world from when people tried to get their bets in with 3 minutes to go so they could secure a good place to watch the race.

Now there are large groups of people on the Internet with bets ready to go at the touch of a button.

[Stillriledup]

What tracks let you cancel a wager after you've left the window? I thought most tracks don't allow such a thing?

I know NYRA doesn't allow adjustments, including cancellations, after you leave the window. It says so right in the track program... :lol:

SharpCat is able to cancel wagers at the track well AFTER he's left the window?

I think they used to not allow it, but many tracks changed that policy. You can also cancel on self service machines.

[PaceAdvantage]

I canceled a wager at twinspires on an AQU race yesterday at 0 MTP because I realised I had punched the wrong number. Of course, the horse won.I know you can cancel wagers through some ADWs...I was specifically talking about at the track...specifically NYRA...and wondered where else you can cancel so easily...

[lamboguy]

I know you can cancel wagers through some ADWs...I was specifically talking about at the track...specifically NYRA...and wondered where else you can cancel so easily...NYRA used to be the best place to call the break and cancel. when they first started the simulcast era, i used to have about 15 seconds to call the horse on the lead and then another 15 seconds to cancel the bet in case the horse went backwards. it lasted almost 2 years until everyone that was punching out the break landed on a horse that was 70-1 leaving the gate there and went down in price to pay $13.00 in the winner's circle. the guy that was writing through the binoculars in the New York Post blased NYRA for allowing it to happen and finally they cut back the bell. originally they locked out the bell 2 minutes before post, then they locked it out when the first horse was in the gate. in Nevada when there was non-pari mutuel every track loked the wagering when the first horse got in the gate.

i am not sure how much time a teller has to cancel in New York these days, i haven't bet the break in almost 20 years now.

[Robert Fischer]

call the break and cancel.

The only race that bothered me this year was at Gulfstream 2/08 Race 2.

Pletcher Favorite was 7/5 , Ward 2nd Choice was 9/5.
Nothing tricky about that, it was a guessing game, and the crowd was going with Todd.

Pletcher Favorite proceeded to break like a dud and his odds changed late from 7/5 to 8/5.
At the same time Ward 2nd Choice who broke great dropped from 9/5 to 6/5.

The fact that there was no logical explanation for the the odds flip-flop whatsoever, combined with the fact that the odds flip-flop aligned perfectly with the huge difference in the break, threw up a big Red Flag. http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1394732

Poetic Justice - although it was a profitable play and huge edge at the time of the break, a longshot ended up winning anyway making that specific race a loss if anyone did past post/cancel.

[lamboguy]

The only race that bothered me this year was at Gulfstream 2/08 Race 2.

Pletcher Favorite was 7/5 , Ward 2nd Choice was 9/5.
Nothing tricky about that, it was a guessing game, and the crowd was going with Todd.

Pletcher Favorite proceeded to break like a dud and his odds changed late from 7/5 to 8/5.
At the same time Ward 2nd Choice who broke great dropped from 9/5 to 6/5.

The fact that there was no logical explanation for the the odds flip-flop whatsoever, combined with the fact that the odds flip-flop aligned perfectly with the huge difference in the break, threw up a big Red Flag. http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1394732

Poetic Justice - although it was a profitable play and huge edge at the time of the break, a longshot ended up winning anyway making that specific race a loss if anyone did past post/cancel.i love it when that happens, but i know that in the long run they are going to get the money. i have a decent iidea how to play horses that go up in price after the break and that's the stuff that i have been playing lately. i hardly ever bet a horse that is a short price that i know is going to get the front ahead of time, they are a waste of time for me these days.

[Robert Goren]

The question is do you want to stand in line waiting while some joker checks out his supra tickets for a mistake or do you want him to go set down and check them and then if he finds one to come back and cancel and re-bet. Anybody who has been stuck in line behind one of those jokers knows the answer. I know that is not what you were talking about, but if you allow one person to cancel, you have to allow all.