What if horse racing did this?

[cj]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8951483/nba-adds-all-historical-statistics-website

[PhantomOnTour]

What if it rained gold from heaven? :D

Horseracing will NEVER do something like this...it would be too helpful

[Tom]

What percentage of it would be missing or totally wrong?:rolleyes:

[thaskalos]

There is no reason in the world for charging a horseplayer for the past performances he needs, in order to play this game.

It's equivalent to a restaurant charging a patron for looking at the menu...

[Stillriledup]

What if it rained gold from heaven? :D

Horseracing will NEVER do something like this...it would be too helpful

"Horse racing" has to become horse racing first. Right now, its just a collection of individuals who just happen to have "equine puzzles" in common with each other....they arent on the same 'team' like the major sports leagues are.

[RXB]

There is no reason in the world for charging a horseplayer for the past performances he needs, in order to play this game.

It's equivalent to a restaurant charging a patron for looking at the menu...

So you're equating the aggregation of all of the past performance data to printing a restaurant menu?

There is no equivalency in the complexity of the tasks or the associated business models. And I might add that when they hand you a fully realized menu at a restaurant, they expect you not to walk away with it, write on it, etc., because it's not your personal copy. Other people are going to use it after you're finished reading it.

[thaskalos]

So you're equating the aggregation of all of the past performance data to printing a restaurant menu?

There is no equivalency in the complexity of the tasks or the associated business models. And I might add that when they hand you a fully realized menu at a restaurant, they expect you not to walk away with it, write on it, etc., because it's not your personal copy. Other people are going to use it after you're finished reading it.
You are forgetting that restaurants also have carry-out menus...which you are permitted to take home. Of course...you might be accustomed to dining at fancier places than the ones I frequent. :rolleyes:

If you mean to suggest that the racetracks should not feel obligated to provide -- free of charge -- the only means through which the customer can arrive at an educated wagering decision...then all I can say is that I disagree 100% with you.

The industry doesn't really need to squeeze every ounce of blood from the customer...especially in today's casino-assisted age.

[CincyHorseplayer]

I am a diehard iconoclast but a restaurant menu is the same everyday.That's not the case with past performances.This is apples reality applied to oranges.

[cj]

I am a diehard iconoclast but a restaurant menu is the same everyday.That's not the case with past performances.This is apples reality applied to oranges.

Are we really nitpicking about the example? Maybe there are better ones out there, but the point is valid.

[RXB]

You are forgetting that restaurants also have carry-out menus...which you are permitted to take home. Of course...you might be accustomed to dining at fancier places than the ones I frequent.

If you mean to suggest that the racetracks should not feel obligated to provide -- free of charge -- the only means through which the customer can arrive at an educated wagering decision...then all I can say is that I disagree 100% with you.

They don't really to squeeze every ounce of blood from the customer...especially in today's casino-assisted age.

Takeout menus are el cheapo folded four-panel/six-panel 4x9's that are printed in bulk at very low expense and are often fully relevant for months if not years at a time. And any menu is a mere thumbnail.

The racetracks are only obliged to offer a basic "menu" of the available wagering that day and then take your bets. The "means through which the customer can arrive at an educated wagering decision" is highly variable from person to person; should the tracks be disseminating Ragozin sheets at $20 a pop to each patron? Takach-calibre body language information, customized to your personal specifications? No, you accept that you pay for various types/levels of information directly to outside distributors, in accordance with your needs/goals/budgets, no different than a sports bettor. If the track or any other wagering outlet deems you to be a substantial customer then they might comp you on certain items. PTC apparently now has an agreement with CJ to supply his figures to their customers, but you can be sure that the average PTC member bets many multiples greater annually than the median racetrack customer.

There's far, far more sophisticated information available to horseplayers now than even 15-20 years ago but it hasn't led to a surge in wagering/popularity.

When you go to a NBA/NFL/MLB/NHL game in general admission, you pay if you want a program.

And remember: there's no such thing as a "free lunch." :)

[cj]

Programs are free at Thunder games. Not the ones that are like books, but ones with plenty of information on both teams in pamphlet style.

I don't think anybody expects to get PPs like those from DRF or BRIS or similar for free. They realize there is plenty of added value included. But things like basic running lines with times, those things should be available free of charge.

The only reason collection that information costs a lot of money is because racing is still operating like it is 1963, not 2013.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Are we really nitpicking about the example? Maybe there are better ones out there, but the point is valid.

I get the point CJ.It was just a dumb example in my opinion.If players are wanting to be a face of the game they can't be coming to the table with this.It will get exposed.Thaskalos is a huge personal influence on me,but he's capable as the rest of us of saying something not well thought out.

[thaskalos]

I get the point CJ.It was just a dumb example in my opinion.If players are wanting to be a face of the game they can't be coming to the table with this.It will get exposed.Thaskalos is a huge personal influence on me,but he's capable as the rest of us of saying something not well thought out.
Cincy...I assure you that I have no desire to be a "face of the game". In fact, I'm not even sure I know what that means.

We are just sharing opinions here, and disagreements are welcomed...by me at least.

[cj]

Cincy...I assure you that I have no desire to be a "face of the game". In fact, I'm not even sure I know what that means.

We are just sharing opinions here, and disagreements are welcomed...by me at least.

It would be a pretty boring place if everyone agreed with each other.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Cincy...I assure you that I have no desire to be a "face of the game". In fact, I'm not even sure I know what that means.

We are just sharing opinions here, and disagreements are welcomed...by me at least.

Well,to me,you are one of the faces of the game.I think you are a great player and somebody I try to model myself off of,if not how you play,the level of even keel,necessity to win,and building a bankroll over the course of evolution as a player.I can still bust your balls here and there though when you step in it!

[Some_One]

All the stats are online, you just need to pay Equibase an arm and leg for them.

[burnsy]

You are forgetting that restaurants also have carry-out menus...which you are permitted to take home. Of course...you might be accustomed to dining at fancier places than the ones I frequent. :rolleyes:

If you mean to suggest that the racetracks should not feel obligated to provide -- free of charge -- the only means through which the customer can arrive at an educated wagering decision...then all I can say is that I disagree 100% with you.

The industry doesn't really need to squeeze every ounce of blood from the customer...especially in today's casino-assisted age.

Some may disagree, but your point is a valid one. Most tracks charge for parking, admission and programs. If you are a "casual" or "new" player this is a total turn off. This is the part of "take out" that horseplayers never talk about. They sit there like actuaries and tell you the take out of every pool...only real horse players care about that. Like this rainbow 6 garbage they keep talking about, i have a degree in accounting and economics....they're are not revealing anything i don't already know. All i care about is i can bet a few dimes and maybe win alot whether i hit the jackpot or not...the pool is so big it really does not matter. Its cheap action for big money and thats what people LOVE. ROI is the only thing that keeps most of us alive, good handicapping on value bets. Every bookie gets their due thats how it works. The casinos have made an art of SERVICE, you walk in for free, eat and drink for peanuts and they practically rub your feet to show up with mailers and specials! People don't care that the take out leaves very few winners because the atmosphere they offer kicks racings ass in as far as customer service goes. Many casual players and newbies are intimidated before they even step ground on the race track........they are down 20 to 30 bucks. Those guys writing are great at pointing out take outs like accountants, but they don't understand economics at all. Competition is eating racings lunch annually with the better venues and they are happy to have huge take outs on slots because they know getting people happy and gambling makes people forget all about the take out. I don't care for the slots, my girlfriend does though, we get free hotel rooms, comp. meals and 3 dollar drinks at turning stone EVERY TIME. I have to run down to Vernon for the horse room but she and thousands like her have a ball (at turningstone) and they don't even know what "take out" means. If they did they would never play. When she goes to Saratoga with me she pays 10 to 20 to park, 3 to get in and 4 more for a program before she even meets me. People that don't really bet horses see this as a slap in the face. They don't know what take out is but they know when 30 bucks leaves their wallet just to enter and get started! Horse players and tracks have to think out of the box, the current format can not compete. Yes, the loyal horse player keeps this game afloat but racing used to see way better days then these. Here at Saratoga Raceway i could of thrown a brick across the simulcasting room last night and not hit ONE person...downstairs the place was packed with bells, lights and people throwing more coin around than you can imagine on the slots and video slots. Those people could give a crap about take out, they are having fun and it did not cost them a dime for "start up". You have to understand this current society and gamblers...they want cheap action with a chance to win alot even if the chances are not that great, its fun to them.....they want it quickly and they want to walk into the place feeling like a valued customer. If you asked them what take out is...........90% are going to say WTF is that? The country is ranked 25th in the world according to math skills....most are practically math illiterate. But they know when dollars are coming out of their pocket BEFORE they even make ONE bet.

[thaskalos]

Some may disagree, but your point is a valid one. Most tracks charge for parking, admission and programs. If you are a "casual" or "new" player this is a total turn off. This is the part of "take out" that horseplayers never talk about. They sit there like actuaries and tell you the take out of every pool...only real horse players care about that. Like this rainbow 6 garbage they keep talking about, i have a degree in accounting and economics....they're are not revealing anything i don't already know. All i care about is i can bet a few dimes and maybe win alot whether i hit the jackpot or not...the pool is so big it really does not matter. Its cheap action for big money and thats what people LOVE. ROI is the only thing that keeps most of us alive, good handicapping on value bets. Every bookie gets their due thats how it works. The casinos have made an art of SERVICE, you walk in for free, eat and drink for peanuts and they practically rub your feet to show up with mailers and specials! People don't care that the take out leaves very few winners because the atmosphere they offer kicks racings ass in as far as customer service goes. Many casual players and newbies are intimidated before they even step ground on the race track........they are down 20 to 30 bucks. Those guys writing are great at pointing out take outs like accountants, but they don't understand economics at all. Competition is eating racings lunch annually with the better venues and they are happy to have huge take outs on slots because they know getting people happy and gambling makes people forget all about the take out. I don't care for the slots, my girlfriend does though, we get free hotel rooms, comp. meals and 3 dollar drinks at turning stone EVERY TIME. I have to run down to Vernon for the horse room but she and thousands like her have a ball (at turningstone) and they don't even know what "take out" means. If they did they would never play. When she goes to Saratoga with me she pays 10 to 20 to park, 3 to get in and 4 more for a program before she even meets me. People that don't really bet horses see this as a slap in the face. They don't know what take out is but they know when 30 bucks leaves their wallet just to enter and get started! Horse players and tracks have to think out of the box, the current format can not compete. Yes, the loyal horse player keeps this game afloat but racing used to see way better days then these. Here at Saratoga Raceway i could of thrown a brick across the simulcasting room last night and not hit ONE person...downstairs the place was packed with bells, lights and people throwing more coin around than you can imagine on the slots and video slots. Those people could give a crap about take out, they are having fun and it did not cost them a dime for "start up". You have to understand this current society and gamblers...they want cheap action with a chance to win alot even if the chances are not that great, its fun to them.....they want it quickly and they want to walk into the place feeling like a valued customer. If you asked them what take out is...........90% are going to say WTF is that? The country is ranked 25th in the world according to math skills....most are practically math illiterate. But they know when dollars are coming out of their pocket BEFORE they even make ONE bet.

The racetracks don't think that they are in the gambling business, Burnsy...they think that they are in the "entertainment" business. They think that SPORTING EVENTS are their main competition...not casinos -- even though they are falling all over themselves trying to share in the "casino craze".

I remember years ago -- before the proliferation of other forms of legalized gambling -- when horseplayers would hear of the red-carpet treatment that serious gamblers were getting from the casinos in Las Vegas...while the racetracks -- who were in their hey day at the time -- were not even comping a cup of coffee to their best customers. It took me 15 years of serious, everyday betting before someone at the racetrack noticed me...and handed me a free Racing Form.

And now the industry tells us that the declining attendance at the tracks and the OTBs is attributed to the failing economy in this country.

There are casinos and OTBs in the Chicagoland area. Walk into an OTB on a Friday night...and the place is DEAD. Just a bunch of drunks, looking bleary-eyed at the TV screens...without even making a sound. And this is NOW...during the ban on ADW wagering.

Walk into a nearby casino, on the other hand, and the place is hopping with action...even though the limits are $25 at the roulette...and $50 at the Blackjack tables. I haven't been able to find a seat at a $25 Blackjack table at Rivers Casino on a Friday night or a weekend, since the place opened.

I guess the casinos do not have to operate during the same economic downturn...:rolleyes:

[Tom]

At the casinos, do you suppose they know who their customers are, and treat them like customers?

[Robert Goren]

How many time in the last several years have we had a horseman post that they are the customer?!

[banacek]

You know I see things a little differently.

25 years ago, I paid 3 or 4 dollars for a racing form. I had to drive out to one of a couple of places that carried them and hoped they were actually there. If not, another trip. I did everything by hand, took a long time to do properly...mostly arithmetic calculations. I had to go to the track to make a wager. The cost to do that every race day was probably $15-$20 (admission, parking, gas, etc.) And to make the wager, I had to line up and hope I got through before the gates opened.

Today? I pay $1 (probably 50 cents in 1988 dollars) for a BRIS data file. I use my own program to do the tedious arithmetic calculations...far less time needed to handicap. I do all my wagering online, and instead of $15 or $20 a day cost to be able to play, now they give me a rebate for playing! Oh and when I go to my local track...free admission!

The amount of information available is far superior. I want to get the scratches...they are online. 25 years ago....there was a phone line that often wasn't updated. condition book? Online. Charts..free.. online..Oh I remember cutting them all out from the form and hoping I got them all. Want to look up a horse's history..free..online. Want to see post, jockey, trainer, owner stats..no problem...even split up by distance. Want to see how a track is running..early, late, free stats on that too.

I want to look up a race from 3 years ago, free historical charts going back 20 years. I get a shipper from a track I don't know? 25 years ago, I tried to make a guess, but had no idea of the track variant on that day at a track that I am unfamiliar with. Now I look up the charts for free, use Dave's pars and make a pretty decent educated guess about the horse's race.

Sure things could be improved, but overall it is far better for me. No complaints.

[Stillriledup]

You know I see things a little differently.

25 years ago, I paid 3 or 4 dollars for a racing form. I had to drive out to one of a couple of places that carried them and hoped they were actually there. If not, another trip. I did everything by hand, took a long time to do properly...mostly arithmetic calculations. I had to go to the track to make a wager. The cost to do that every race day was probably $15-$20 (admission, parking, gas, etc.) And to make the wager, I had to line up and hope I got through before the gates opened.

Today? I pay $1 (probably 50 cents in 1988 dollars) for a BRIS data file. I use my own program to do the tedious arithmetic calculations...far less time needed to handicap. I do all my wagering online, and instead of $15 or $20 a day cost to be able to play, now they give me a rebate for playing! Oh and when I go to my local track...free admission!

The amount of information available is far superior. I want to get the scratches...they are online. 25 years ago....there was a phone line that often wasn't updated. condition book? Online. Charts..free.. online..Oh I remember cutting them all out from the form and hoping I got them all. Want to look up a horse's history..free..online. Want to see post, jockey, trainer, owner stats..no problem...even split up by distance. Want to see how a track is running..early, late, free stats on that too.

I want to look up a race from 3 years ago, free historical charts going back 20 years. I get a shipper from a track I don't know? 25 years ago, I tried to make a guess, but had no idea of the track variant on that day at a track that I am unfamiliar with. Now I look up the charts for free, use Dave's pars and make a pretty decent educated guess about the horse's race.

Sure things could be improved, but overall it is far better for me. No complaints.

Santa Anita still charges 4 dollars to park and 5 dollars to get in. Maybe they still think its 1970?

[Tatetytiffany]

Another huge problem is, when is the last time you read in the newspaper that they had to put a slot machine down because it broke down. I know its part of the game but it disturbs many of my friends who I have tried to get into racing. Some people see this happen once and say never again.