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thaskalos
02-12-2013, 04:38 AM
You are playing blackjack at an Illinois casino, and you find yourself losing $9,500. You take another $5,000 in cash out of your pocket, and you ask the dealer for additional chips.

At this point, a pit boss approaches and informs you that you are not a registered player...and that you have exceeded your loss limit as an "unknown". He asks you for your identification...in order to allow you to keep playing longer. You kindly inform him that you have forgotten to bring identification with you on this particular day.

He confiscates the additional $5,000 cash that you have just taken out of your pocket...and tells you that you will get the money back whenever you return with proper identification.

This obviously doesn't sit well with you...and you tell the man that you would like your $5,000 returned to you, and -- since they don't want you to play any longer -- you'd stop playing for the day and go home.

You are unceremoniously told that you have two options available to you:

Either leave without your $5,000 and come back later with proper identification, in order to get it back...or be arrested on the spot.

True or false?

lamboguy
02-12-2013, 06:17 AM
my guess says its true. and thank you once again for the PATRIOT ACT.

on another note, i don't know who went to bed one night and and got up in the middle of the night and came up with the perfect tool for the government to destroy whatever rights were left to the people that live here, and to make sure that this country goes down in flames like a few other great empires before. that's your PATRIOT ACT.

HUSKER55
02-12-2013, 08:34 AM
probably true. casinos are a cash business so I would have a hard time imagining them walking away from $5K. since you have done nothing wrong and they don't suspect you of any wrong doing, otherwise they would have detained you for the authorities, which they didn't.

Since you are in illinois there is only one reason this took place. The government wants to know whose taxes to audit and who to fine to pay for the screw ups by BO, meaning who has surplus money. That means they are looking for fresh meat.

Guess who is in the sandwhich?

elysiantraveller
02-12-2013, 09:19 AM
True.

They need to run you through the AML (Anti-Money Laundering) Database to make sure you aren't attempting to wash cash. $10k is the limit.

Your bank will do the same thing only difference is they already have your personal information on file and probably recognize you.

Not having your ID is a immediate red flag.

Greyfox
02-12-2013, 09:34 AM
If true, then it's very very wrong.

1. Why did the Casino let you play as an unregistered player

2. If anyone takes money that wasn't gambled from a player, that is theft

3. What guarantees are being given that the player will ever get the $5000 back

4. Arrested for what?

The situation is so flawed and unbelievable that it is probably true.

But if this were a Quiz show question I'd say FALSE. ( I do not play cards.)

elysiantraveller
02-12-2013, 09:51 AM
If true, then it's very very wrong.

1. Why did the Casino let you play as an unregistered player

2. If anyone takes money that wasn't gambled from a player, that is theft

3. What guarantees are being given that the player will ever get the $5000 back

4. Arrested for what?

The situation is so flawed and unbelievable that it is probably true.

But if this were a Quiz show question I'd say FALSE. ( I do not play cards.)

I'm not saying I agree with it but...

1. You can play as someone that isn't registered but if you are a registered player they already have your ID information on file and have no reason to bother you... they can just submit the inquiry.

2. Not true. They have to confiscate it just like a gas station has to confiscate your fake ID if you are underage and buying tobacco/alcohol.

3. You will get it back just bring in your ID so they can run a check on your and you will get your money back, assuming OFAC/AML kicks it back clean.

4. I don't know what you would be arrested for... probably the law you are about to break staying on the premise arguing with the staff.

Any Money Service Business (MSB) has to submit to these regulations. Here is why: Say Thask is a terrorist and he has his 10,000 in dirty money that he needs washed. He goes into the casino, exchanges his cash for chips at a window, plays a couple of hands, then heads to a different window to cash out but this time asks for a check....

... money-laundering.

The law is after $10,000 the MSB must submit a AML check. The same applies with your broker, you can't just give him $10,000 in cash, and ask him to buy something with it without being processed but since your broker recognizes you and has your information available already he doesn't bother you with it. He simply takes your money and files the inquiry on his own time.

Not to derail the topic but its pretty wild you need ID to spend $10,000 in cash but don't need one to vote huh?... only in America! :)

Greyfox
02-12-2013, 10:00 AM
I'm not saying I agree with it but...

! :)

Well so far my research into Illinois gambling hasn't uncovered much.

The only articles I can find on the internet say that Illinois does not have a debt loss limit at Casinos.

"Iowa, the first state to legalize riverboat gambling, enforced a loss limit in the beginning but quickly withdrew it when droves of gamblers began crossing the border for the opportunity to bet as much as they wanted at the newly opened casinos in Illinois."

Also, of interest, I found an Illinois Law which states:

"Sec. 28‑8. Gambling losses recoverable.
(a) Any person who by gambling shall lose to any other person, any sum of money or thing of value, amounting to the sum of $50 or more and shall pay or deliver the same or any part thereof, may sue for and recover the money or other thing of value, so lost and paid or delivered, in a civil action against the winner thereof, with costs, in the circuit court."

So I suggest the man in question allow himself to be wrongfully arrested and then sue the Casino and police for false arrest and his losses. :rolleyes:

Valuist
02-12-2013, 10:02 AM
You are playing blackjack at an Illinois casino, and you find yourself losing $9,500. You take another $5,000 in cash out of your pocket, and you ask the dealer for additional chips.

At this point, a pit boss approaches and informs you that you are not a registered player...and that you have exceeded your loss limit as an "unknown". He asks you for your identification...in order to allow you to keep playing longer. You kindly inform him that you have forgotten to bring identification with you on this particular day.

He confiscates the additional $5,000 cash that you have just taken out of your pocket...and tells you that you will get the money back whenever you return with proper identification.

This obviously doesn't sit well with you...and you tell the man that you would like your $5,000 returned to you, and -- since they don't want you to play any longer -- you'd stop playing for the day and go home.

You are unceremoniously told that you have two options available to you:

Either leave without your $5,000 and come back later with proper identification, in order to get it back...or be arrested on the spot.

True or false?



As an Illinoisian (and occasional blackjack player) I'm appalled if its true. But I can't imagine not having an ID on me. I imagine the potential 10k threshold can trigger the money laundering inquiries.

Where did you hear this story and what casino does it involve?

elysiantraveller
02-12-2013, 10:51 AM
This has NOTHING to do with Illinois State Law or gambling in general. This is Federal Law...

Google the AML.

iwearpurple
02-12-2013, 11:17 AM
I understand the AML.

But now, I am curious. What happens at the racetrack when you make a 10,000 bet (which is way out of my range). Do they have to, or should they be, asking for identification.

Greyfox
02-12-2013, 11:23 AM
What happens at the racetrack when you make a 10,000 bet .

If at the racetrack and I open my wallet and find $10,000 I'll know that I put on someone else's pants. :lol:

BlueShoe
02-12-2013, 11:51 AM
First of all, just what the hell is a "registered player?" As a one time serious blackjack player, but only in Nevada, have never seen or heard of the scenario in the OP. As for taking my 5G's, any SOB that tried it would get slugged, and damn the consequences. The casino bosses or casino security are not LE, and their powers of arrest and detainment are very limited, although they will bluff and intimidate patrons into believing that they have that right. Except for clear violations of money statutes, they cannot even lawfully ask for id, and most surely cannot legally "backroom" you, ie, arrest, restrain, and hold you. There have been many lawsuits won over the years, with the casinos the loser, awarded to card counters and others that have been subjected to rough treatment by the clubs.

johnhannibalsmith
02-12-2013, 12:09 PM
Great thread and topics within. Let it grow.

Dahoss2002
02-12-2013, 12:19 PM
At the local casinos here in Louisiana, you have to provide identification if you exceed 10 k "buy-in" in a single day. There is no confiscating of the money if you try to exceed the limit, you just cannot buy-in for more until identification is provided.

horses4courses
02-12-2013, 12:26 PM
Confiscation of cash would be a gaming violation in Nevada.
The casino has no right to do that out here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_31_casinos

http://title31.blogspot.com/


In Nevada, the pit boss has two courses of action.
At $9500 cash in, he can take an additional $500 in play from you before refusing your action. Over $10K, you must supply a current form of government issued ID, and you must sign a W-9 stating that any S/S # you supply is valid, in order to continue playing.
Failure to do so will have you barred from further play in that establishment.
The second action he can take (without your knowledge) is completing a SARC form on you, should he think that your withholding of info is suspicious. It's an anti-money laundering device which was beefed up after 9-11.

I don't know what the procedures are in Illinois, but confiscating cash sounds illegal to me, no matter where you are.

elysiantraveller
02-12-2013, 12:45 PM
Confiscation of cash would be a gaming violation in Nevada.
The casino has no right to do that out here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_31_casinos

http://title31.blogspot.com/


In Nevada, the pit boss has two courses of action.
At $9500 cash in, he can take an additional $500 in play from you before refusing your action. Over $10K, you must supply a current form of government issued ID, and you must sign a W-9 stating that any S/S # you supply is valid, in order to continue playing.
Failure to do so will have you barred from further play in that establishment.
The second action he can take (without your knowledge) is completing a SARC form on you, should he think that your withholding of info is suspicious. It's an anti-money laundering device which was beefed up after 9-11.

I don't know what the procedures are in Illinois, but confiscating cash sounds illegal to me, no matter where you are.

I don't think it matters as Federal Law supersedes State. Now I'm not sure exactly how the confiscation stuff is written but SURE they are well within their right not to give the money back.

thaskalos
02-12-2013, 12:54 PM
As an Illinoisian (and occasional blackjack player) I'm appalled if its true. But I can't imagine not having an ID on me. I imagine the potential 10k threshold can trigger the money laundering inquiries.

Where did you hear this story and what casino does it involve?
I did not hear this story; I was an eyewitness...and it happened at the Rivers Casino in Niles.

I was playing blackjack...and the man to my left was an acquaintance of mine, who is a very successful businessman, and a big gambler. He does not like betting horses much, but he loves playing blackjack and baccarat. This scenario involved him...and the details were exactly as I relayed them here.

As you can imagine...all of us at the table were shocked and appalled at this occurring situation -- and pleaded with the pit boss to let the man have his $5,000 back...and have him go on his way. After all, refusing to deal to him was one thing -- and perhaps understandable -- but refusing to return money which had never been put in play was something else entirely.

We were told by the "suits" that this was the "law"...and that there was nothing they could do.

I politely told him that -- if this was indeed the "law" -- then perhaps this law should be put up on display somewhere...to avoid having such unpleasantries occur in the future. If proper identification was such an important requirement...why not inform us of this fact as we enter the establishment?

I was told -- not as politely -- that there was a little office located by the entance of the casino. If I needed to brush up on my "rights" as a player...then that would be the place for me to go visit.

I thanked the gentlemen in the suits...but assured them it wouldn't be necessary. I would return to the racetrack, I told them, where I had no "rights"...and I was free to lose as much money as I could...

horses4courses
02-12-2013, 01:26 PM
I don't think it matters as Federal Law supersedes State. Now I'm not sure exactly how the confiscation stuff is written but SURE they are well within their right not to give the money back.

I disagree completely. I would be phoning a lawyer very quickly.
You have no proof to back this up, just your gut feeling.

Here's another angle to approach this from.
What if the BJ player producing the money is a foreigner?
You're going to confiscate his cash until he gets his passport from another place he is staying?

This isn't a Dodge City casino - it should be a reputable business.
You can refuse his action beyond $10K.
That's all you have the right to do, at that point.

Yes, you can report the incident to authorities as suspicious - you have that right.
Confiscating his cash should lose you your job, and cost the casino a gaming fine penalty, plus damages to the customer.

Dave Schwartz
02-12-2013, 01:44 PM
I admit that I do not have a learned opinion in the matter.

That said, I would say that the floorman who applied the rule messed up royally because what he should have done is not allowed the man's money to go into the drop box before informing him of the application of the law. In other words, he should have said something like, "If we change up your money you will have to fill out the proper forms."


Now, the bad news. Several months ago I had a conversation with a racebook manager who told a similar story. He said that a guy had bet and cashed quite a bit all day long. Apparently, federal law prevents the floorman from warning the player before making or cashing wagers (making the scenario above technically illegal but probably customary).

Back to the story.

The guy said that the player made a nice hit... less than $10k, but large enough that when combined with his previous large hits that day totalled more than $10k in TOTAL RETURNS.

He went on to say that the Federal law requires that the man fill out the paperwork before BEING PAID! The alternative would be to walk away and return the next day to be paid.

No doubt - Big Brother is trying very hard to watch BIG money, whether it is going in or out of the casino.

elysiantraveller
02-12-2013, 01:48 PM
I disagree completely. I would be phoning a lawyer very quickly.
You have no proof to back this up, just your gut feeling.

The part about Federal Law superseding State law I am sure about. As far as the confiscation I'll admit I don't know the exact rules about it but I would be willing to bet a highly regulated business like a casino is up to speed on the BSA.

horses4courses
02-12-2013, 02:13 PM
Looking at the listing of the Illinois gaming's internal controls, they appear similar to those of Nevada. Both states make provision for putting funds on deposit at the casino cage, should they pertain payment of winnings. This applies mainly to customers winning slot jackpots, for example, who cannot provide ID at the time. That was not the situation at the Niles BJ table, where the $5k buy-in should have been refused. End of story.

http://www.igb.illinois.gov/mics/SECT-J.pdf

TJDave
02-12-2013, 02:18 PM
That said, I would say that the floorman who applied the rule messed up royally because what he should have done is not allowed the man's money to go into the drop box...

This changes things. My first impression was that they confiscated or set aside his cash. I may be wrong but wouldn't a casino have the right to demand whatever documentation they deemed appropriate to exchange their tokens for cash?

You go to a bank with a certified check and they're gonna want ID.

BlueShoe
02-12-2013, 02:19 PM
The guy said that the player made a nice hit... less than $10k, but large enough that when combined with his previous large hits that day totalled more than $10k in TOTAL RETURNS.

He went on to say that the Federal law requires that the man fill out the paperwork before BEING PAID! The alternative would be to walk away and return the next day to be paid.

.
This brings up a hypothetical situation that as a visitor to the Nevada racebooks have wondered about. Say the super pays 5k for a buck and I have 30 ten cent winning tickets on it. Or the pick-3 pays 500 and I have 30 one dollar winning tickets. In both cases each ticket is worth 500, below the tax withholding threshold, and I have 15k coming back. If I very slowly cash the winning tickets one at a time, going to a differnet cashier each time, and cashing them over a period of several days, would I be able to get away with it without alerting the suits? If the book suspected, since each ticket is time stamped and the whole place is recorded on film, they could easily match me to the play if they so desired, but would they notice? According to what I understand, the clubs frown on such practices and may be alert for such things. If I anticipated a huge payoff if it hit, would also buy the tickets one or two at a time going to a different window each time, and would not use my players card. Disclaimer--have never ever remotely had a hit that put me in this situation, but one can dream, can we not? :)

horses4courses
02-12-2013, 02:27 PM
This brings up a hypothetical situation that as a visitor to the Nevada racebooks have wondered about. Say the super pays 5k for a buck and I have 30 ten cent winning tickets on it. Or the pick-3 pays 500 and I have 30 one dollar winning tickets. In both cases each ticket is worth 500, below the tax withholding threshold, and I have 15k coming back. If I very slowly cash the winning tickets one at a time, going to a differnet cashier each time, and cashing them over a period of several days, would I be able to get away with it without alerting the suits? If the book suspected, since each ticket is time stamped and the whole place is recorded on film, they could easily match me to the play if they so desired, but would they notice? According to what I understand, the clubs frown on such practices and may be alert for such things. If I anticipated a huge payoff if it hit, would also buy the tickets one or two at a time going to a different window each time, and would not use my players card. Disclaimer--have never ever remotely had a hit that put me in this situation, but one can dream, can we not? :)

As long as you are not cashing out more than $10K in a 24-hr gaming period (varies in different casinos), you are not breaking the rules.
However, the casinos have leeway if they think you are trying to circumvent the regulations. Any employee can file a SARC (suspicious activity) report on you - even if they don't know your name. The chances of it ever being acted upon? Remote.

Dave Schwartz
02-12-2013, 02:33 PM
Horses4Courses has it right on, I think.

:ThmbUp:

Capper Al
02-12-2013, 02:38 PM
Never have had these problems at the $5.00 tables.

Bettowin
02-12-2013, 04:22 PM
I disagree completely. I would be phoning a lawyer very quickly.
You have no proof to back this up, just your gut feeling.

Here's another angle to approach this from.
What if the BJ player producing the money is a foreigner?
You're going to confiscate his cash until he gets his passport from another place he is staying?

This isn't a Dodge City casino - it should be a reputable business.
You can refuse his action beyond $10K.
That's all you have the right to do, at that point.

Yes, you can report the incident to authorities as suspicious - you have that right.
Confiscating his cash should lose you your job, and cost the casino a gaming fine penalty, plus damages to the customer.


Dodge City does have a casino and it is quite reputable:)

horses4courses
02-12-2013, 04:46 PM
Dodge City does have a casino and it is quite reputable:)

Please accept my apology.
My reference was aimed more at something out of the "Wild West".

Every casino in the US these days is highly regulated.
Money laundering is guarded against, but not to the point where a pit boss can take the law into his own hands,
and confiscate cash from someone.

Bettowin
02-12-2013, 04:51 PM
Please accept my apology.
My reference was aimed more at something out of the "Wild West".

Every casino in the US these days is highly regulated.
Money laundering is guarded against, but not to the point where a pit boss can take the law into his own hands,
and confiscate cash from someone.

No apology needed. I was just giving you a little chit:)

Striker
02-12-2013, 07:03 PM
I did not hear this story; I was an eyewitness...and it happened at the Rivers Casino in Niles.

I was playing blackjack...and the man to my left was an acquaintance of mine, who is a very successful businessman, and a big gambler. He does not like betting horses much, but he loves playing blackjack and baccarat. This scenario involved him...and the details were exactly as I relayed them here.

I hate everything about the Rivers Casino besides their little red/green light sytem in the parking garage to let you know what spaces are open is kinda cool, but if your friend is a big gambler and blackjack player, didn't he know that the casino would need his id, and what the typical casino protocol is when playing for that kind of cash?

Valuist
03-19-2013, 04:55 PM
You are playing blackjack at an Illinois casino, and you find yourself losing $9,500. You take another $5,000 in cash out of your pocket, and you ask the dealer for additional chips.

At this point, a pit boss approaches and informs you that you are not a registered player...and that you have exceeded your loss limit as an "unknown". He asks you for your identification...in order to allow you to keep playing longer. You kindly inform him that you have forgotten to bring identification with you on this particular day.

He confiscates the additional $5,000 cash that you have just taken out of your pocket...and tells you that you will get the money back whenever you return with proper identification.

This obviously doesn't sit well with you...and you tell the man that you would like your $5,000 returned to you, and -- since they don't want you to play any longer -- you'd stop playing for the day and go home.

You are unceremoniously told that you have two options available to you:

Either leave without your $5,000 and come back later with proper identification, in order to get it back...or be arrested on the spot.

True or false?

Thask-

Have you been to Rivers to play blackjack? Is it all 6 shoe decks? And do you know the minimum and maximum wagers? Thanks.

cj's dad
03-19-2013, 09:06 PM
Anyone that needs to know anything about casinos has to ask one question; why are card counters banned ?????

Valuist
03-19-2013, 09:45 PM
CAUGHT card counters get banned, or refused action. For every one that's caught, they miss many. Its certainly not illegal.

cj's dad
03-20-2013, 09:33 PM
So, if a person who is smart enough to count cards can beat the "system" why is he banned.

I simply don't get that.

Robert Goren
03-20-2013, 10:21 PM
So, if a person who is smart enough to count cards can beat the "system" why is he banned.

I simply don't get that.because he takes the casino's money. It really is that simple.

Rookies
03-20-2013, 10:23 PM
because he takes the casino's money. It really is that simple.

This is defeated by the ever growing constant shuffler...