Thomas Amoss

[Track Phantom]

Had 5 horses entered today.....1 scratched and the other 4 won for fun. His last 18 starts....8 wins and 17 in the money.

Interestingly, one of his wins were for Midwest T'bred Stables.

I guess this is the way it will be from now on. 15 trainers win 87% of the races at 1-5 odds.

Game is a joke now.

[tzipi]

37 of his 51 starters have finished in the money so far this year. :eek:

[duncan04]

Had 5 horses entered today.....1 scratched and the other 4 won for fun. His last 18 starts....8 wins and 17 in the money.

Interestingly, one of his wins were for Midwest T'bred Stables.

I guess this is the way it will be from now on. 15 trainers win 87% of the races at 1-5 odds.

Game is a joke now.


Yet you will probably still wager? :rolleyes:

[Tuffmug]

Had 5 horses entered today.....1 scratched and the other 4 won for fun. His last 18 starts....8 wins and 17 in the money.

Interestingly, one of his wins were for Midwest T'bred Stables.

I guess this is the way it will be from now on. 15 trainers win 87% of the races at 1-5 odds.

Game is a joke now.


Yes, the game is becoming a bad joke but 87% win rate on 1-5 bets would be great as it yields a flat bet profit of $22 after 100 races.:)

[Track Phantom]

Yet you will probably still wager? :rolleyes:

Point?

[duncan04]

Point?


If its that bad why keep playing? just asking

[lamboguy]

If its that bad why keep playing? just askingi am a degenerate horse player, nothing is going to stop me, but when you look at decreasing handles and attendance, something has effected the sport.
a good study would be to compare handles in races that have either Maggi Moss or Midwest Thoroughbred horses vs. races that don't have either. i have noticed lighter pools.

[tzipi]

74 out of 133 Midwest Thoroughbred starters have finished in the money so far.

32 out of 39 Maggie Moss horses have finished in the money.

That's crazy rates.

[Track Phantom]

If its that bad why keep playing? just asking

Well since you asked, it's getting much harder to find a valid reason to keep playing. Either way, that isn't the question or the issue.

The issue is the game is being run over by scum ball, no nothing trainers who are cheating and ruining this game. If you're good with that, congrats.

[thaskalos]

Well since you asked, it's getting much harder to find a valid reason to keep playing. Either way, that isn't the question or the issue.

The issue is the game is being run over by scum ball, no nothing trainers who are cheating and ruining this game. If you're good with that, congrats.

The game is theirs to ruin...and they are doing a fine job in that regard.

Whoever told the horseplayer that he had a say in this game, anyway?

[Track Phantom]

The game is theirs to ruin...and they are doing a fine job in that regard.

Whoever told the horseplayer that he had a say in this game, anyway?

I mean this in all sincerity. The game will be theirs WITHOUT horseplayers eventually. They are falling like flies. Much of the money bet into the pools is inside money. You can tell since many horses who don't stand out in the form take action and run. That isn't public money.

How many serious horseplayers do you think there is in this country? 10,000? 5,000? Not sure but the handle tells you that they are leaving in droves and much of that is due to lack of integrity.

It's just sad all the way around.

[thaskalos]

I mean this in all sincerity. The game will be theirs WITHOUT horseplayers eventually. They are falling like flies. Much of the money bet into the pools is inside money. You can tell since many horses who don't stand out in the form take action and run. That isn't public money.

How many serious horseplayers do you think there is in this country? 10,000? 5,000? Not sure but the handle tells you that they are leaving in droves and much of that is due to lack of integrity.

It's just sad all the way around.

And I mean THIS in all sincerity:

We horseplayers are a peculiar lot. We resent that the industry treats us like addicted degenerates...but we do nothing to get them to change their minds about us.

We lament that there is no unity in the game...but we don't realize that WE -- the "customers" -- are even more divided and disjointed than THEY are!

We are much more than just spectators in this game; we are ACTIVE PARTICIPANTS! As vital as any trainer or jockey could ever be! But we accept all the injustices that come our way without doing anything about it except complain endlessly.

We say that the player has no "voice" in this game...but that's not true. The player HAS a voice in this game; he speaks with his wagered dollars!

I don't know how many serious players there are in this game, but I do know that almost all the serious players agree that the game is now being run with the TRAINERS in mind...and the serious player has become less than an afterthought. And yet, we continue patronizing this game...as if we were really the captive audience that they consider us to be.

Sure...the mutuel pools have declined in recent years. But the decline has been too gradual...and has sent the wrong message. The industry thinks that the failing economy and the proliferation of other forms of legalized gambling are the main culprits for the declining mutuel pools. They don't see it as a result of the DISGUST that the players have developed for this game, as it's currently being run.

Why can't ALL the serious players in this country abstain from betting, TOTALLY, for a month or so...so we could show the industry that we mean business...and that we are a force to be reckoned with -- instead of the fools that they think we are?

Are we afraid that we might rediscover our families for a little while? Can't we find something else to do for a little while...just to prove a point?

Don't we know that only through some sort of sacrifice can we ever get what we really want?

But no. We are unwilling to do anything constructive to improve our standing in the game...choosing instead to complain endlessly -- FOR YEARS.

Without realizing that we've become our own worst enemies...

[pandy]

I mean this in all sincerity. The game will be theirs WITHOUT horseplayers eventually. They are falling like flies. Much of the money bet into the pools is inside money. You can tell since many horses who don't stand out in the form take action and run. That isn't public money.

How many serious horseplayers do you think there is in this country? 10,000? 5,000? Not sure but the handle tells you that they are leaving in droves and much of that is due to lack of integrity.

It's just sad all the way around.

I don't disagree with you but there are still bettors out there. The handle at The Meadowlands (harness) is up sharply this year and has hit 3.5 million some nights. Balmoral, another one mile harness track, has seen its handle go up over the past few years (helped by 10 cent and 50 cent wagers). So there are bettors but tracks need to put out a good product with full fields that give bettors an opportunity to hit some longshot winners and big payoffs.

To the point of this thread, Jeff Gural, who runs the Meadowlands, has taken steps to address this issue of super trainers. He has banned several high-percentage trainers. This year he hired a private investigator. This week Showplace Farms sent a letter to Gural objecting to giving the P.I. unlimited access. Gural said that he may be forced to ban all the trainers who use Showplace Farms. We'll see how it plays out. But the point is, Gural is trying and so far it's working.

This basically comes down to incompetent management of the racetracks. I know people blame these problems on the industry at whole, but each racetrack can take matters into its own hands and improve the situation. They have to get tough on cheaters, offer more attractive wagers, etc. There are still bettors, but they want a good product. And yes, I agree that the cheating trainers are hurting the sport and product.

[PICSIX]

And I mean THIS in all sincerity:





Why can't ALL the serious players in this country abstain from betting, TOTALLY, for a month or so...so we could show the industry that we mean business...and that we are a force to be reckoned with -- instead of the fools that they think we are?





Why don't the rule abiding trainers, that absolutely know these "Super Trainers" are cheating, do something about it? Could the rule abiding trainers ban together and refuse to enter when one of these "Super Trainers" has an entrant in a race?

Where else but horse racing and politics do the cheaters get to keep on cheating with virtually no opposition? :ThmbDown:

Mike

[tzipi]

Why don't the rule abiding trainers, that absolutely know these "Super Trainers" are cheating, do something about it? Could the rule abiding trainers ban together and refuse to enter when one of these "Super Trainers" has an entrant in a race?

Where else but horse racing and politics do the cheaters get to keep on cheating with virtually no opposition? :ThmbDown:

Mike


Would be nice but problem is owners pay too much money for these horses to be trained,fed and stabled. Sitting out races might be an option for the owner or a trainers call. It is sad how the game has changed.

This guy Amoss has had multiple drug violations in Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana and God knows where else, so why hasn't he been banned by the game. Makes you wonder.

No trainer is a Super Trainer. You can't get animals to do things every single time that the majority of other people can't. Every horse jumping up huge in beyers after every claim. Horses being jumped up in class off the claim to win everytime. No way.

You look at the decline of the older, solid trainers in the late 90's to 2000 and the rise of these younger "super trainers" and it makes you wonder. I guess the older solid trainers woke up one day and forgot how to train :confused:

[andicap]

Thaskalos is 100% correct.

When companies paid their employees 10 cents an hour with terrible working conditions, they formed unions and went out on strike. Eventually -- with help from the 1937 Wagner Act -- conditions improved. (Lets not get political here about unions. I'm talking 1910 here. Sweat shops).

My point is that workers SACRIFICED for their gains after being exploited for so many years. How many horseplayers are willing to make sacrifices to improve THEIR lot?

Cable TV subscribers are the same way. I used to write about cable and heard tons of complaints about their high cost. When I suggested to people that if they just unite and cancel service for one month in protest, they demurred -- but I'll miss my shows.

If u are not willing to take some short-term pain for long-term gain, you will never get anywhere. You will be forever condemned to act as Don Quixotes, tilting at windmills but never really accomplishing anything.

That is why I have no sympathy at all for people who whine about the decline of horse racing. "Oh, I';m a degenerate horse player." Like you have no free will. You deserve everything you get if you are unwilling to make a sacrifice for the long-haul betterment of your lot.

And you don't even have to quit playing altogether. Target a particular track or two, put out a press release that says, "In protest against supertrainers, we will not play these two tracks because 3 trainers are winning 60% of the races" or something like that

And the boycott would have to be much more effective than the one attempted in Calif after they raised the takeout. (Did they lower the takeout after that? I don't believe so but I could be wrong.)

My question is this: How much of the pools do the whales account for these days? Can us little guys even have an impact any more on the pools?

[lamboguy]

without the drugs or other substances that these great trainers are sticking in their young horses these days, you wouldn't have 20 horse fields in the Kentucky Derby. these big outfits have so many horses that are so far ahead of the other ones, when you run against them at those young ages they do nothing but beat you up.

however they can't keep their horses going after they complete their 3 year old career. if you have a good horse you can win with them when they turn 4, and they will run for a long time.

Animal Kingdom sure looks like a horse that is on schedule to do well at 4, they did everything right with him even though he got beat on the wire yesterday, he will be better the next time.

[Jeff P]

I mean this in all sincerity. The game will be theirs WITHOUT horseplayers eventually. They are falling like flies. Much of the money bet into the pools is inside money. You can tell since many horses who don't stand out in the form take action and run. That isn't public money.

How many serious horseplayers do you think there is in this country? 10,000? 5,000? Not sure but the handle tells you that they are leaving in droves and much of that is due to lack of integrity.

Guys like Amoss and Ness have never even heard of the word integrity.

It's just sad all the way around.


PARI-MUTUEL HANDLE:
http://www.jockeyclub.com/factbook.asp?section=8

According to numbers published at the Jockey Club website all sources North American thoroughbred handle was $15.9 billion in 2003. It was $15.4 billion as recently as 2007. Since then: sharp drop off. This year's numbers currently on track to come in at $10 billion.

We at HANA have surveyed serious bettors extensively asking them to name the specific reasons why they don't bet as much as they used to and why they don't bet as much as they otherwise would.

In survey after survey serious bettors keep citing the same three reasons:

1. High Takeout relative to other forms of gaming.

2. Integrity: Odds that change after the bell.

3. Integrity: Racing has a drug problem.

These are the three elephants sitting in the room. Until or unless racing decides to address takeout, integrity, and integrity in a serious way: Total customer spend on racing will continue to plummet.

Jeff Platt
President, HANA

http://www.horseplayersassociation.org/


.

[cj]

My handle has dwindled every year the last 5 for a variety of reasons. The biggest one, though, is there are too few races I consider worth betting due to super trainers. I have no interest in betting contests where the biggest factors are humans.

[lamboguy]

in case the right person reads Jeff P's prior post, i want to add "unknown substance's" and shock wave therapay, and over use of bute prior to races.

[Jeff P]

Add to that tapping of joints and treatment in Oxygen chambers. I have nothing against horses breathing O2. However, I do have a problem with some trainers treating them secretly and hiding that info from an unsuspecting wagering public. (Transparency is everything.)


Jeff Platt
President, HANA

http://www.horseplayersassociation.org/



.

[Track Phantom]

1. High Takeout relative to other forms of gaming.

2. Integrity: Odds that change after the bell.

3. Integrity: Racing has a drug problem.


The problem is who in charge really cares about these things. Think about it. High takeout = money in tracks pocket. Integrity (odds) = more money bet into their pools despite the fact it may be after the race started. Integrity (drugs) = more horses that can fill their races.

Overall, race tracks have an INCENTIVE to keep the 3 issues listed above going. If any of those three would actually take money off their bottom line, they would be dealt with.

[Track Phantom]

Why can't ALL the serious players in this country abstain from betting, TOTALLY, for a month or so...so we could show the industry that we mean business...and that we are a force to be reckoned with -- instead of the fools that they think we are?

I don't disagree with the sentiment here. Problem is, it would be virtually impossible to coordinate this and make an impact that mattered.

If I knew that enough of us could join together to abstain in betting races where Amoss and Ness were involved (or any other similar trainer), just to make an example of them, I would join this in a heartbeat.

Imagine that the handle was obscenely low when Ness had a runner. I think track's would take measures to remove these trainers from their grounds.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Unfortunately, a better approach to sending a broad message through leverage in 2013 would be to walk around and unplug all the cha-ching machines 24/7 until your bets actually meant anything in the first place.

[lamboguy]

I don't disagree with the sentiment here. Problem is, it would be virtually impossible to coordinate this and make an impact that mattered.

If I knew that enough of us could join together to abstain in betting races where Amoss and Ness were involved (or any other similar trainer), just to make an example of them, I would join this in a heartbeat.

Imagine that the handle was obscenely low when Ness had a runner. I think track's would take measures to remove these trainers from their grounds.he's not doing anything wrong by the rules of racing, what do you want to through him out for WINNING?

all you have to do is have someone that is awake and change the rules to eliminate these guys that have huge edges. they have all made plenty of money now, if you change the rules they will leave without having to throw them out.

[Jeff P]

The problem is who in charge really cares about these things. Think about it. High takeout = money in tracks pocket. Integrity (odds) = more money bet into their pools despite the fact it may be after the race started. Integrity (drugs) = more horses that can fill their races.

Overall, race tracks have an INCENTIVE to keep the 3 issues listed above going. If any of those three would actually take money off their bottom line, they would be dealt with.

The industry THINKS the status quo is the correct path to take.

But the handle numbers suggest otherwise.

I am convinced that if faced with a similar revenue fall off the management team of just about any Fortune 500 company you can name would take an entirely different path to recovery than the one racing has.

A competent management team would identify their target market - and identify customer needs and wants within that target market - and make it their MISSION to address them.

Racing has taken a completely different approach. Instead of addressing customer needs and wants within their target market - racing's decision makers have purposely decided to ignore them. (Amazingly, I've seen them take to belittling the customer for expressing customer needs and wants in the first place.)

I submit to anyone reading the idea that if this strategy were indeed successful: Racing wouldn't have experienced a $5 Billion handle (1/3rd of total customer spend) fall off.


-jp

.

[Track Phantom]

The industry THINKS the status quo is the correct path to take.

But the handle numbers suggest otherwise.

I am convinced that if faced with a similar revenue fall off the management team of just about any Fortune 500 company you can name would take an entirely different path to recovery than the one racing has.

A competent management team would identify their target market - and identify customer needs and wants within that target market - and make it their MISSION to address them.

Racing has taken a completely different approach. Instead of addressing customer needs and wants within their target market - racing's decision makers have purposely decided to ignore them. (Amazingly, I've seen them take to belittling the customer for expressing customer needs and wants in the first place.)

I submit to anyone reading the idea that if this strategy were indeed successful: Racing wouldn't have experienced a $5 Billion handle (1/3rd of total customer spend) fall off.


-jp

.

One major flaw here. The "racing industry" isn't a corporation. It doesn't have a controlling figure (CEO) that can make universal decisions. It is a fragmented, segmented group of "corporations" acting on the behalf of self interest. Quite often, this self interest is in direct contrast with what is best for the overall market place of their product.

It is hard to blame the individual tracks doing what they can to produce short term survival. There isn't enough money involved to make decisions that adversly affect their current survival for the betterment of the overall product.

Quite simply, if racing continues to operate in this way, without a governing body and a structured, universal approach, it will continue to spiral in the wrong direction.

[Valuist]

PARI-MUTUEL HANDLE:
http://www.jockeyclub.com/factbook.asp?section=8

According to numbers published at the Jockey Club website all sources North American thoroughbred handle was $15.9 billion in 2003. It was $15.4 billion as recently as 2007. Since then: sharp drop off. This year's numbers currently on track to come in at $10 billion.

We at HANA have surveyed serious bettors extensively asking them to name the specific reasons why they don't bet as much as they used to and why they don't bet as much as they otherwise would.

In survey after survey serious bettors keep citing the same three reasons:

1. High Takeout relative to other forms of gaming.

2. Integrity: Odds that change after the bell.

3. Integrity: Racing has a drug problem.

These are the three elephants sitting in the room. Until or unless racing decides to address takeout, integrity, and integrity in a serious way: Total customer spend on racing will continue to plummet.

Jeff Platt
President, HANA

http://www.horseplayersassociation.org/


.

Interesting you mention the handle peaked in 2007. Obviously, the economy has a lot to do with it, but I know my personal handle peaked in 2007. I haven't been unemployed since then; but I just don't spend as much time on racing. Less betting opportunities, synthetic racing, super trainers, small fields, crazy late odds swings/late windows and programmed betting are all reasons why I believe the game is more difficult than ever to beat.

[Stillriledup]

One major flaw here. The "racing industry" isn't a corporation. It doesn't have a controlling figure (CEO) that can make universal decisions. It is a fragmented, segmented group of "corporations" acting on the behalf of self interest. Quite often, this self interest is in direct contrast with what is best for the overall market place of their product.

It is hard to blame the individual tracks doing what they can to produce short term survival. There isn't enough money involved to make decisions that adversly affect their current survival for the betterment of the overall product.

Quite simply, if racing continues to operate in this way, without a governing body and a structured, universal approach, it will continue to spiral in the wrong direction.

I've been preaching this forever! THANK YOU!

Racing isnt racing. Individual tracks arent looking out for the good of this hypothetical 'racing', they're all just running gambling corportations and horse racing just happens to be the animal of choice...they could care less about the gamblers and the horses, they just care about themselves.

And it shows.

[tzipi]

My handle has dwindled every year the last 5 for a variety of reasons. The biggest one, though, is there are too few races I consider worth betting due to super trainers. I have no interest in betting contests where the biggest factors are humans.


I totally agree, I have cut down big time on my betting and put my money into other investments. When I see certain guys in a race and I know I can NOT go on the past performances, I stay away now.

Recently I stayed out of a race at Aqueduct and a horse who ran in the 60's jumped 20 beyer pts after a extremely recent claim. I just can't handicap those races anymore. No one can unless you're on the inside and know what they are actually doing.

[rastajenk]

I have no interest in betting contests where the biggest factors are humans.You have always been betting on humans. Are you so into your numbers that you've never realized that? That can't be.

A race result is the product of hundreds of independent human decisions of all kinds at all levels. It has always been so. When did human involvement become a bad thing, when it's such a necessary thing?

[JustRalph]

My handle is almost nil now.

We have been saying this same shit for ten years.

The sport is so fragmented and the players unwilling to make any changes, you could change this board over to Tennis and most probably would'nt give a shit.

[nijinski]

Amoss has owners with capitol . Respectable people as well .

The late John Franks was a class act , . I happen to like Maggi Moss as well .

When the funds are there , the barn can run well , the horses eat the best

feed and munch on quality alfalfa .

Easy guys , Methocarbomol is a muscle relaxer . It shouldn't be given in

a large dose while racing , but you don't get a buzz from it .

[bob60566]

And I mean THIS in all sincerity:

We horseplayers are a peculiar lot. We resent that the industry treats us like addicted degenerates...but we do nothing to get them to change their minds about us.

We lament that there is no unity in the game...but we don't realize that WE -- the "customers" -- are even more divided and disjointed than THEY are!

We are much more than just spectators in this game; we are ACTIVE PARTICIPANTS! As vital as any trainer or jockey could ever be! But we accept all the injustices that come our way without doing anything about it except complain endlessly.

We say that the player has no "voice" in this game...but that's not true. The player HAS a voice in this game; he speaks with his wagered dollars!

I don't know how many serious players there are in this game, but I do know that almost all the serious players agree that the game is now being run with the TRAINERS in mind...and the serious player has become less than an afterthought. And yet, we continue patronizing this game...as if we were really the captive audience that they consider us to be.

Sure...the mutuel pools have declined in recent years. But the decline has been too gradual...and has sent the wrong message. The industry thinks that the failing economy and the proliferation of other forms of legalized gambling are the main culprits for the declining mutuel pools. They don't see it as a result of the DISGUST that the players have developed for this game, as it's currently being run.

Why can't ALL the serious players in this country abstain from betting, TOTALLY, for a month or so...so we could show the industry that we mean business...and that we are a force to be reckoned with -- instead of the fools that they think we are?

Are we afraid that we might rediscover our families for a little while? Can't we find something else to do for a little while...just to prove a point?

Don't we know that only through some sort of sacrifice can we ever get what we really want?

But no. We are unwilling to do anything constructive to improve our standing in the game...choosing instead to complain endlessly -- FOR YEARS.

Without realizing that we've become our own worst enemies...
Excellent post :ThmbUp:
But have the yearly handle in racing in North America not been in steady decline 30% since the peak in late seventies, that is close to three decades ago.

[cj]

You have always been betting on humans. Are you so into your numbers that you've never realized that? That can't be.

A race result is the product of hundreds of independent human decisions of all kinds at all levels. It has always been so. When did human involvement become a bad thing, when it's such a necessary thing?

Try reading my post again before using sarcasm. Where did I say I wasn't betting on humans?

What I said was there are too many races where humans are the #1 factor in the outcome. I've been doing this a LONG time, and humans never won regularly @ 35-40% all around the country. I think making numbers gives me an even better perspective. I know when new acquisitions won because they were spotted well, and I also know when they ran 12 lengths faster than they ever have at the age of 7.

Sadly, the latter is much more common. Sometimes it is just a clueless prior trainer, but that is the exception, not the rule.

[Beachbabe]

On a related matter; was watching HRTV saturday and after owner Frank Calabrese won another race, trained by the ever-popular Kirk Ziadie; host, Peter Lurie went on for a full minute about how much he admired owners such as Calabrese and Midwest Thoroughbreds because they knew "how to play the claiming game". I mean he sounded like a paid commercial for these owners almost to the point of fawning giddiness.

Hey Pete, get your head out of your azz & you'll see what "game" these guys are really playing.

[cj]

On a related matter; was watching HRTV saturday and after owner Frank Calabrese won another race, trained by the ever-popular Kirk Ziadie; host, Peter Lawrie (sp?) went on for a full minute about how much he admired owners such as Calabrese and Midwest Thoroughbreds because they knew "how to play the claiming game". I mean he sounded like a paid commercial for these owners almost to the point of fawning giddiness.

Hey Pete, get your head out of your azz & you'll see what "game" these guys are really playing.

Those guys are on TV to promote gambling. They are never going to do something to dissuade bettors if they like working.

[Valuist]

On a related matter; was watching HRTV saturday and after owner Frank Calabrese won another race, trained by the ever-popular Kirk Ziadie; host, Peter Lurie went on for a full minute about how much he admired owners such as Calabrese and Midwest Thoroughbreds because they knew "how to play the claiming game". I mean he sounded like a paid commercial for these owners almost to the point of fawning giddiness.

Hey Pete, get your head out of your azz & you'll see what "game" these guys are really playing.

He was at it again today, urging bettors to pour money into the 52% takeout laden Rainbow 6.

[Beachbabe]

Those guys are on TV to promote gambling. They are never going to do something to dissuade bettors if they like working.

CJ, I think you're missing my point. I understand that they will promote gambling. I have no problem with a host going on about the Rainbow 6 carryover; I have no problem with hosts handicapping every race; I have no problem with a host extolling the virtues of a particular racetrack.

What I do have a problem with is a host who can go on & on about how cogent and shrewd a couple of ( and trying not to be incendiary) "questionable" owners/trainers "play the game".
I don't think that does anything to promote gambling. JMHO.

[tzipi]

Amoss has owners with capitol.

Yeah, he's got big money Maggie Moss in his corner, an owner and lawyer.

Maggie Moss: 32 out of 39 horses in the money this year.

[nijinski]

Yeah, he's got big money Maggie Moss in his corner, an owner and lawyer.

Maggie Moss: 32 out of 39 horses in the money this year.

She is a very generous supporter of horse rescue and retirement . Very much involved and active in getting horses off the track that are in need .
On the the other hand , you think her horses are winning due to a cheating edge . It doesn't make sense to me.

[tzipi]

She is a very generous supporter of horse rescue and retirement . Very much involved and active in getting horses off the track that are in need .
On the the other hand , you think her horses are winning due to a cheating edge . It doesn't make sense to me.

No, I know she does involve in RUN DOWN horse retirement. I was talking about her ITM % this year. 32 out of 39 horses!

Plus, isn't one of her main trainers and clients Tommy Amoss? What's his record in numerous states with drug violations/cheating?


Oh by the way...22 of her 39 starters have finished FIRST this year. Sounds normal Nijinski, right? Geez

[PICSIX]

No, I know she does involve in horse retirement. I was talking about her ITM % this year. 32 out of 39 horses!

Plus, isn't one of her main trainers and clients Tommy Amoss? What's his record in numerous states with drug violations/cheating?


Oh by the way...22 of her 39 have finished FIRST this year. Sounds normal Nijinski, right?

http://www.thoroughbredrulings.com/default.asp?RTReport=2&EPID=3496&L=Amoss&M=M.&F=Thomas&clearsearch=YES

According to this database he has 15.

[nijinski]

No, I know she does involve in horse retirement. I was talking about her ITM % this year. 32 out of 39 horses!

Plus , isn't one of her main trainers and clients Tommy Amoss? What's his record in numerous states with drug violations/cheating?

Naprosyn yes and Methocarbomol overages . That's not something he should be proud of but they will not make a slow horse run any faster .
they are legal at certain levels .

[tzipi]

Naprosyn yes and Methocarbomol overages . That's not something he should be proud of but they will not make a slow horse run any faster .
they are legal at certain levels .

OK that's fine, Amoss is clean with all his infractions in multiple states and her 22 wins out of 39 starters is clean. I'll say it's a crazy ITM% and Win% but we'll have to agree to disagree Nijinsky :) .

[nijinski]

http://www.thoroughbredrulings.com/default.asp?RTReport=2&EPID=3496&L=Amoss&M=M.&F=Thomas&clearsearch=YES

According to this database he has 15.

Next we'll be throwing in the racing secretary for carding races that enable them to win
Look there are cheaters unfortunately . If you don't believe that investments made to keep horses in good shape and hiring good conditioners can produce winners , then you will never trust a high percentage trainer .
If they are using illegal narcotics , then they need to be severely punished .

[nijinski]

OK that's fine, Amoss is clean with all his infractions in multiple states and her 22 wins out of 39 starters is clean. I'll say it's a crazy ITM% and Win% but we'll have to agree to disagree Nijinsky :) .

Civil enough for me :) .

[Track Phantom]

Next we'll be throwing in the racing secretary for carding races that enable them to win
Look there are cheaters unfortunately . If you don't believe that investments made to keep horses in good shape and hiring good conditioners can produce winners , then you will never trust a high percentage trainer .
If they are using illegal narcotics , then they need to be severely punished .

Are you kidding? You aren't seriously debating whether Tom Amoss is winning cleanly right? You don't need a database of infractions to prove or disprove. How about simple arithmatic?

Bring Tom Amoss' statistics to any insurance underwriter to crunch the numbers and provide probability statistics regarding the liklihood that those numbers are achievable in large quantities and the odds are lots of millions to one against.

Do we have to be so dull and obvious as to defend this and not just agree that it is statistically impossible to win with this high rate while using the same, legal practices of their peers?

[Stillriledup]

Are you kidding? You aren't seriously debating whether Tom Amoss is winning cleanly right? You don't need a database of infractions to prove or disprove. How about simple arithmatic?

Bring Tom Amoss' statistics to any insurance underwriter to crunch the numbers and provide probability statistics regarding the liklihood that those numbers are achievable in large quantities and the odds are lots of millions to one against.

Do we have to be so dull and obvious as to defend this and not just agree that it is statistically impossible to win with this high rate while using the same, legal practices of their peers?

He's making it look easy and pretty soon might be looking for a 'harder game' to conquer.

[rrpic6]

Doesn't Amoss fill in on TVG sometimes? Next time he does, flood Twitter (we all follow Todd, Geno, Paul) with these accusations. Isn't that what TVG is all about now?

RR

[lamboguy]

Doesn't Amoss fill in on TVG sometimes? Next time he does, flood Twitter (we all follow Todd, Geno, Paul) with these accusations. Isn't that what TVG is all about now?

RR


watching TVG these days is like waiting for the rigor mortis to set in

[castaway01]

Excellent post :ThmbUp:
But have the yearly handle in racing in North America not been in steady decline 30% since the peak in late seventies, that is close to three decades ago.

No, your information is incorrect. Handle peaked at 15.1 billion dollars in 2003.

[Robert Goren]

No, your information is incorrect. Handle peaked at 15.1 billion dollars in 2003.I wonder what happen if you adjusted those numbers for inflation.

[lamboguy]

I wonder what happen if you adjusted those numbers for inflation.no doubt a lot worse than what it looks like

this saturday, The Donn Handicap Day in Gulfstream, with a $2 million Rainbow Pick Six carryover, only managed to do total handle of $17 million. i was there 30 years ago when they did $12 million that day without a carryover or simulcast wagering.

[Valuist]

no doubt a lot worse than what it looks like

this saturday, The Donn Handicap Day in Gulfstream, with a $2 million Rainbow Pick Six carryover, only managed to do total handle of $17 million. i was there 30 years ago when they did $12 million that day without a carryover or simulcast wagering.

That's amazing. No full card simulcasting in 1983 (except for LV) and they probably ran 9 races. They ran 12 live races there last Saturday.

1983 Donn....did Bates Motel ever run at Gulfstream?

[bob60566]

I wonder what happen if you adjusted those numbers for inflation.
http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/thinking-bout-the-old-times-racing-trends-then-and-now/

[castaway01]

I wonder what happen if you adjusted those numbers for inflation.

Separate question; I was just addressing the original statement. Obviously they're worse.

[lamboguy]

That's amazing. No full card simulcasting in 1983 (except for LV) and they probably ran 9 races. They ran 12 live races there last Saturday.

1983 Donn....did Bates Motel ever run at Gulfstream?
vegas didn't have it then either. they booked more action than the track handled. horse racing was big, but back then tracks were family run, today most of them are run by the corporates.

[nijinski]

Are you kidding? You aren't seriously debating whether Tom Amoss is winning cleanly right? You don't need a database of infractions to prove or disprove. How about simple arithmatic?

Bring Tom Amoss' statistics to any insurance underwriter to crunch the numbers and provide probability statistics regarding the liklihood that those numbers are achievable in large quantities and the odds are lots of millions to one against.

Do we have to be so dull and obvious as to defend this and not just agree that it is statistically impossible to win with this high rate while using the same, legal practices of their peers?

No I'm not kidding .
There is no proof medically that the class of drugs involved here will alter a race . This is why I have a problem with the smear tactics .
Therapeutic is what they are . Overages are not allowed , so I would then agree with a penalty but you have no proof that there is an edge due to
a substance used . Show me all the class 1 offenses and I would be quite upset with Amoss . It doesn't look to be the case .

[the little guy]

no doubt a lot worse than what it looks like

this saturday, The Donn Handicap Day in Gulfstream, with a $2 million Rainbow Pick Six carryover, only managed to do total handle of $17 million. i was there 30 years ago when they did $12 million that day without a carryover or simulcast wagering.


Not to derail the irresponsible posting in this thread, but the Rainbow Six handled $695K. Of course everyone takes any figures you give with a mountain of salt.

How many people were at Funny Cide's JCGC win again?

[Track Phantom]

No I'm not kidding .
There is no proof medically that the class of drugs involved here will alter a race . This is why I have a problem with the smear tactics .
Therapeutic is what they are . Overages are not allowed , so I would then agree with a penalty but you have no proof that there is an edge due to
a substance used . Show me all the class 1 offenses and I would be quite upset with Amoss . It doesn't look to be the case .

So the fact that Lance Armstrong beat tests for 10 years means he was clean, too? Actually, no he admitted to being the biggest doper of all-time.

I choose not to give these scumballs a pass just because they know how to beat a test. Common sense has to prevail. I'm sure you can scrounge some up for your next response.

[cj]

So the fact that Lance Armstrong beat tests for 10 years means he was clean, too? Actually, no he admitted to being the biggest doper of all-time.

I choose not to give these scumballs a pass just because they know how to beat a test. Common sense has to prevail. I'm sure you can scrounge some up for your next response.

I'd like to see a few examples of his big move ups rather than assume he cheats because he has a high win percentage. Have any?

[johnhannibalsmith]

Not to derail the irresponsible posting in this thread, but the Rainbow Six handled $695K. Of course everyone takes any figures you give with a mountain of salt.

How many people were at Funny Cide's JCGC win again?

Oh **** me and don't post this shit when I'm biting into a microwaved Arby pile of crap and get the red sauce dripping all the way down my chin and then inhaling it through my nostrils.

[Track Phantom]

I'd like to see a few examples of his big move ups rather than assume he cheats because he has a high win percentage. Have any?

No.. Not trying to prove anything. Just stating facts.

[cj]

No.. Not trying to prove anything. Just stating facts.

I'm a 4.5 tennis player. If I play 100 4.0 guys, I'll probably go 100-0. If I play 5.0 guys I'll go 0-100. Maybe Amoss is just a lot better than those on the relatively weak circuit, maybe he isn't. I don't know that much about him which is why I asked. I can see the ridiculous move ups with some other guys so I was asking if he has them as well.

In the end I don't really care WHY these guys are "supertrainers". I just know that where they exist, they pretty much ruin the betting for me and many others. I know a lot of people claim to make money betting on them, but I have my doubts about that.

[usedtolovetvg]

They all cheat. The ones they want to bust get busted. The others, they turn a blind eye to.

[PaceAdvantage]

http://www.thoroughbredrulings.com/default.asp?RTReport=2&EPID=3496&L=Amoss&M=M.&F=Thomas&clearsearch=YES

According to this database he has 15.No. Many of those 15 listed are not for any medication violations...some are for foal papers, incorrect scratch procedures, etc.

[PaceAdvantage]

OK that's fine, Amoss is clean with all his infractions in multiple states and her 22 wins out of 39 starters is clean. I'll say it's a crazy ITM% and Win% but we'll have to agree to disagree Nijinsky :) .Don't be an ass. Be honest. Nijinski was simply pointing out that you and others are misrepresenting the facts.

You'll sit there and say FIFTEEN VIOLATIONS...FIFTEEN TIME CHEATER...when in fact more than a few of those violations have nothing to do with medication overages or anything of the sort.

[PaceAdvantage]

No.. Not trying to prove anything. Just stating facts.Actually, you didn't state any facts, other than his recent racing record.

CJ raises a valid point. And you refusing to address it simply means you come here with an agenda, and don't want to consider any other possibility.

[cj]

Delaunay.

He has improved the horse 20 Beyer points at the age of 6, a horse that has previously been trained by other known "super trainers" Ness (a few times), Dane Kobiskie, and Hugh McMahon.

[tzipi]

Don't be an ass. Be honest. Nijinski was simply pointing out that you and others are misrepresenting the facts.

You'll sit there and say FIFTEEN VIOLATIONS...FIFTEEN TIME CHEATER...when in fact more than a few of those violations have nothing to do with medication overages or anything of the sort.

"Don't be an ass". Good job. Nice.

Man, you don't stop. Show me where I said he has "FIFTEEN..... FIFTEEN! FIFTEEN TIME CHEATER"??
Never said that. Made up. I said he has multiple drug infractions. Which he does, it's fact. Didn't you just link to them??? So come off it. Outrageous. Yeah, I'm an ass. :rolleyes:

Most of my posts are about their crazy WIN % and ITM % of different stables/trainers other people were mentioning. I was shocked. Oh so sorry. Guess we can't talk about crazy sports stats(equibase stats) in our game?? They are crazy and everyone has said the same.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Delaunay.

...

Nice find... and nice claim.

Grabbed for $40k, wins five stakes in his next six starts, and banks well over $200k.

Not bad considering he had made about that much and won seven races - all of the conditioned allowance/optional claim/claim variety in thirty-one previous starts.

[PaceAdvantage]

"Don't be an ass". Good job. Nice.

Man, you don't stop. Show me where I said he has "FIFTEEN..... FIFTEEN! FIFTEEN TIME CHEATER"??
Never said that. Made up. I said he has multiple drug infractions. Which he does, it's fact. Didn't you just link to them??? So come off it. Outrageous. Yeah, I'm an ass. :rolleyes:

Most of my posts are about their crazy WIN % and ITM % of different stables/trainers other people were mentioning. I was shocked. Oh so sorry. Guess we can't talk about crazy sports stats(equibase stats) in our game?? They are crazy and everyone has said the same.You were coming off as an ass towards Nijinski, with your ultra-sarcastic garbage...my opinion...just as you have yours.

[tzipi]

You were coming off as an ass towards Nijinski, with your ultra-sarcastic garbage...my opinion...just as you have yours.

"My ultra sarcastic garbage" What's you deal??


Well sorry, but wrong again. I was not being rude or have any problems at all with Nijinky. That's clear from posts.
I said the ITM and Win% fro some of these people mentioned by others here were crazy and not sure I can say he's clean from the facts I see. That's MY opinion. Not "garbage". It's a discussion board.

I said nicely that we'll agree to disagree and ended it with a :). Oh yeah so mean and what "garbage" I put on the board :rolleyes: Nijinsky answered back nicely and our talk ended. Geez

[PaceAdvantage]

Like I said, my opinion. Not yours. Not hers. I'm free to post my opinion just as you are...

[tzipi]

Like I said, my opinion. Not yours. Not hers. I'm free to post my opinion just as you are...

Again, the posts from start to finish were clearly civil and and not rude at all. Believe whatever you want. The posts were my opinion and I wrote fact stats along with other people. So why jump in calling me an "ass", my words "garbage" and say I was yelling things("FIFTEEN") I never did??
Whatever, I find this a totally ridiculous. Gnite.

[JustRalph]

Nice find... and nice claim.

Grabbed for $40k, wins five stakes in his next six starts, and banks well over $200k.

Not bad considering he had made about that much and won seven races - all of the conditioned allowance/optional claim/claim variety in thirty-one previous starts.

Amazing. Who were the owners?

[tzipi]

Amazing. Who were the owners?

Maggie Moss claimed Delaunay from Diane Kobiskie(Owner/trainer).

[johnhannibalsmith]

Amazing. Who were the owners?

Claimed by Mr. Amoss for Maggi Moss from Dane Kobiskie and PTK, LLC - who didn't so badly themselves as owners that year with about 27% of their stock winning and catching the tri almost 60% of the time.

[Stillriledup]

I'm a 4.5 tennis player. If I play 100 4.0 guys, I'll probably go 100-0. If I play 5.0 guys I'll go 0-100. Maybe Amoss is just a lot better than those on the relatively weak circuit, maybe he isn't. I don't know that much about him which is why I asked. I can see the ridiculous move ups with some other guys so I was asking if he has them as well.

In the end I don't really care WHY these guys are "supertrainers". I just know that where they exist, they pretty much ruin the betting for me and many others. I know a lot of people claim to make money betting on them, but I have my doubts about that.

I'm with you. When i see a supertrainer in a race and he or she has a major contender, i either bet less than my normal sized wager, or i bet nothing.

[Stillriledup]

No I'm not kidding .
There is no proof medically that the class of drugs involved here will alter a race . This is why I have a problem with the smear tactics .
Therapeutic is what they are . Overages are not allowed , so I would then agree with a penalty but you have no proof that there is an edge due to
a substance used . Show me all the class 1 offenses and I would be quite upset with Amoss . It doesn't look to be the case .

"No Proof"

Isnt the proof in the PPs, speed figures and 'move ups'? Do we really need tainted blood and urine to convict in the court of public opinion?

[PaceAdvantage]

Isnt the proof in the PPs, speed figures and 'move ups'? Do we really need tainted blood and urine to convict in the court of public opinion?Yes, you do. And especially on here, where I hold you all to an even higher standard (ok some of you out there, you can stop laughing now...)

[johnhannibalsmith]

I'm with you. When i see a supertrainer in a race and he or she has a major contender, i either bet less than my normal sized wager, or i bet nothing.

I single them in the .50 pick five and then say "meow" as I cross someone's path.

[johnhannibalsmith]

"No Proof"

Isnt the proof in the PPs, speed figures and 'move ups'? Do we really need tainted blood and urine to convict in the court of public opinion?

You took the entire premise of the original post and changed it. The "no proof" was a remark that was trying to set the record straight that he's not moving horses up based on evidence that relies on overages of stuff like robaxin to make the case. And the post you replied to is accurate. And it was reasonably clear what distinction was being made.

[Stillriledup]

Yes, you do. And especially on here, where I hold you all to an even higher standard (ok some of you out there, you can stop laughing now...)

Many might not write the words.

But they're thinking the thoughts.

Remember that.

[nijinski]

"No Proof"

Isnt the proof in the PPs, speed figures and 'move ups'? Do we really need tainted blood and urine to convict in the court of public opinion?

I don't see the proof or any reason to label him a cheat or slime or anything
of the sort .

[menifee]

Amoss is a bottom feeder. He wins at Delta, FG and Hoosier. When he faces better competition at Kee, CD, CA circuit or NY circuit, he loses. Very similar to Jamie Ness in that way though a bit better. In fact, a lot of these super-trainers dominate at lower level circuits, but can't win in the major leagues.

Ness career average earnings per start: $3604
Amoss career average earnings per start: $6437

I understand the frustration. A while ago, I decided that winter racing was bottom feeder central and stopped playing. TB (Ness), Penn (Beattie), Aqu (Rodriguez, Jacobson, Dutrow), etc.

[nijinski]

So the fact that Lance Armstrong beat tests for 10 years means he was clean, too? Actually, no he admitted to being the biggest doper of all-time.

I choose not to give these scumballs a pass just because they know how to beat a test. Common sense has to prevail. I'm sure you can scrounge some up for your next response.

No comparison . In fact if Amoss were to transfuse the blood of his runners.
Why hasn't he won the BC or a Derby ?
I don't see any likeness in him and Armstrong .
Again you throw around the word doper very loosely and frankly , you don't
know what you're talking about .

[badcompany]

And I mean THIS in all sincerity:

We horseplayers are a peculiar lot. We resent that the industry treats us like addicted degenerates...but we do nothing to get them to change their minds about us.

We lament that there is no unity in the game...but we don't realize that WE -- the "customers" -- are even more divided and disjointed than THEY are!

We are much more than just spectators in this game; we are ACTIVE PARTICIPANTS! As vital as any trainer or jockey could ever be! But we accept all the injustices that come our way without doing anything about it except complain endlessly.

We say that the player has no "voice" in this game...but that's not true. The player HAS a voice in this game; he speaks with his wagered dollars!

I don't know how many serious players there are in this game, but I do know that almost all the serious players agree that the game is now being run with the TRAINERS in mind...and the serious player has become less than an afterthought. And yet, we continue patronizing this game...as if we were really the captive audience that they consider us to be.

Sure...the mutuel pools have declined in recent years. But the decline has been too gradual...and has sent the wrong message. The industry thinks that the failing economy and the proliferation of other forms of legalized gambling are the main culprits for the declining mutuel pools. They don't see it as a result of the DISGUST that the players have developed for this game, as it's currently being run.

Why can't ALL the serious players in this country abstain from betting, TOTALLY, for a month or so...so we could show the industry that we mean business...and that we are a force to be reckoned with -- instead of the fools that they think we are?

Are we afraid that we might rediscover our families for a little while? Can't we find something else to do for a little while...just to prove a point?

Don't we know that only through some sort of sacrifice can we ever get what we really want?

But no. We are unwilling to do anything constructive to improve our standing in the game...choosing instead to complain endlessly -- FOR YEARS.

Without realizing that we've become our own worst enemies...

There's a saying that goes something like this, "When you take a man's money, you have to take his sh*t."

Those of us who use this game as a pastime can implement the plan you expose, but those of you who depend on this game for an income stream are basically farked.

[Stillriledup]

I don't see the proof or any reason to label him a cheat or slime or anything
of the sort .

What proof would you need to see before you labeled him a slime or cheat?

[nijinski]

[QUOTE=Stillriledup]What proof would you need to see before you labeled him a slime or cheat?[/Q

Facts , that there is something being done to the the horse that could be potentially harmful to the animal and that can also alter the race .
I'm just not seeing it.

I'll tell you what . Maybe you can dig up something on the claiming stock he had success with .
Delaunay for one . From Amoss' mouth "was always a very good horse and was a multiple claimer". From his own words again , " Going from barn to barn can be stressfull on the horses "
"When he got him he was a skinny horse" . He was thriving in his new permanent surroundings apparently .
So why the surprise ? Especially with Moss invvolved .

[nijinski]

Claimed by Mr. Amoss for Maggi Moss from Dane Kobiskie and PTK, LLC - who didn't so badly themselves as owners that year with about 27% of their stock winning and catching the tri almost 60% of the time.
He put some meat on Delaunays bones and some shine to his coat .

[rastajenk]

Amoss is a bottom feeder.

Amoss career average earnings per start: $6437
That ain't anywhere close to bottom-feeder levels.

[Valuist]

Amoss is a bottom feeder. He wins at Delta, FG and Hoosier. When he faces better competition at Kee, CD, CA circuit or NY circuit, he loses. Very similar to Jamie Ness in that way though a bit better. In fact, a lot of these super-trainers dominate at lower level circuits, but can't win in the major leagues.

TB (Ness), Penn (Beattie), Aqu (Rodriguez, Jacobson, Dutrow), etc.

This isn't true. Both guys win wherever they go. I see Ness winning at GP and Amoss wins a high percentage at CD and Kee. I don't know if Amoss is a cheater or not; I do know he's been in the business a long time and was an assistant to both Frank Brothers and John Parisella, so he's a legitimate horseman. I don't know anything about Ness' background.

One thing should be pointed out about owners like Calabrese, Midwest and Maggie Moss: they never run their horses where they don't belong.

[VeryOldMan]

Many of those 15 listed are not for any medication violations...some are for foal papers, incorrect scratch procedures, etc.

Went through the 15 Amoss violations reported in that database. Of the 15, 9 were medication violations. Of those, 4 were for methocarbamol and 3 were for naproxen. Most recent reported medication violation was 12/10/11.

Don't know enough about these drugs to say whether the logical inference is that Amoss is therefore necessarily some sort of broader "cheater".

Anyone have further examples of particular claiming horses moving up suspiciously under his care?

[cj]

[QUOTE=Stillriledup]What proof would you need to see before you labeled him a slime or cheat?[/Q

Facts , that there is something being done to the the horse that could be potentially harmful to the animal and that can also alter the race .
I'm just not seeing it.

I'll tell you what . Maybe you can dig up something on the claiming stock he had success with .
Delaunay for one . From Amoss' mouth "was always a very good horse and was a multiple claimer". From his own words again , " Going from barn to barn can be stressfull on the horses "
"When he got him he was a skinny horse" . He was thriving in his new permanent surroundings apparently .
So why the surprise ? Especially with Moss invvolved .

Using trainers quotes is pretty silly. I'd rather listen to a lawyer.

If you don't understand why people would question a horse being moved up this much when he was previously trained by Ness (twice), McMahon, Kobiskie, and Small, I'm not sure what else there is to say.

[cj]

Here is something that I would question. He is a well known, winning trainer who is obviously bet pretty heavily. I looked at his first off the claim numbers for the last 5 years.

These are the first four:

186 starts, 52 wins, 28%, $1.59 ROI per $2 bet

This is the past one:

39 starts, 16 wins, 41%, $2.81 ROI per $2 bet


The highest winner the past year was 7 to 1. In 2013 in sports, if something smells fishy, I assume it is rotten.

[rastajenk]

Here's an informative article (http://www.rmtcnet.com/content_headlines.asp?id=&s=&article=1047) specifically about Amoss himself, the penalty process, methocarbomol, Naproxen (Aleve), and federalism in the nation of horse racing. The money quote is
Tom Amoss is not a cheater.

[mountainman]

Next we'll be throwing in the racing secretary for carding races that enable them to win


Welcome to my world. Supertrainers tend to scratch a lot. Not wasting starts in races that come up tough is part of maintaining a superior win precentage. In addition, peers often scratch to avoid the sort of bullet- proof chalk sent out by supertrainers.

Either way, the result is short fields, which the racing sec DOES sometimes catch flack about. Sadly, we can no longer take entries at face value, but must instead speculate on who will scratch and who will honor the commitment to run.

[cj]

Here's an informative article (http://www.rmtcnet.com/content_headlines.asp?id=&s=&article=1047) specifically about Amoss himself, the penalty process, methocarbomol, Naproxen (Aleve), and federalism in the nation of horse racing. The money quote is

Yeah, no bias at all there. How can that guy possibly know, based on what he wrote, whether Amoss cheats or not?

[PhantomOnTour]

Bob Fortus is/was a writer for the Times Picayune in New Orleans.
He does/did their daily racing selections for FG.

I imagine he is quite friendly with Tom Amoss ;)

[badcompany]

Welcome to my world. Supertrainers tend to scratch a lot. Not wasting starts in races that come up tough is part of maintaining a superior win precentage. In addition, peers often scratch to avoid the sort of bullet- proof chalk sent out by supertrainers.

Either way, the result is short fields, which the racing sec DOES sometimes catch flack about. Sadly, we can no longer take entries at face value, but must instead speculate on who will scratch and who will honor the commitment to run.

Perhaps a dumb question, but, couldn't these trainers be fined for scratching without a legit cause?

[cj]

Perhaps a dumb question, but, couldn't these trainers be fined for scratching without a legit cause?

The horsemen run the game.

[mountainman]

Perhaps a dumb question, but, couldn't these trainers be fined for scratching without a legit cause?

It's easy for them to get a vet scratch. And failing that, the standard fine isn't high enough to be a deterrent.

[maclr11]

That win percetange of Ness and Amoss and Silva and all these guys and Justin Evans also comes largely from the fact that they dont care about anything but wins.

If your not the morning line favorite you have entered in the wrong spot is a common adage among these guys.

So yes you can claim a horse for 15 and if hes not exactly how you want run him for 7500 win the purse get him claimed and make it a little money at the racetracks with the inflated purses. You see Ness do that all the time.
If your running 20,000 animals for 10,000 your gonna win lots, and some of them are gonna move up naturally or because you are giving them good care.

[cj]

That win percetange of Ness and Amoss and Silva and all these guys and Justin Evans also comes largely from the fact that they dont care about anything but wins.

If your not the morning line favorite you have entered in the wrong spot is a common adage among these guys.

So yes you can claim a horse for 15 and if hes not exactly how you want run him for 7500 win the purse get him claimed and make it a little money at the racetracks with the inflated purses. You see Ness do that all the time.
If your running 20,000 animals for 10,000 your gonna win lots, and some of them are gonna move up naturally or because you are giving them good care.

Those aren't the horses people complain about. It is the ones that suddenly run 10 lengths faster than they ever have before at the age of 6, things like that.

[castaway01]

Amoss is a bottom feeder. He wins at Delta, FG and Hoosier. When he faces better competition at Kee, CD, CA circuit or NY circuit, he loses. Very similar to Jamie Ness in that way though a bit better. In fact, a lot of these super-trainers dominate at lower level circuits, but can't win in the major leagues.

Ness career average earnings per start: $3604
Amoss career average earnings per start: $6437

I understand the frustration. A while ago, I decided that winter racing was bottom feeder central and stopped playing. TB (Ness), Penn (Beattie), Aqu (Rodriguez, Jacobson, Dutrow), etc.

Amoss in the short fall meet at Churchill doesn't do that well. He's prepping for the Fair Grounds, his home base. He doesn't run many horses.

However, here are the Amoss winning percentages at Churchill in the Spring meet:
2012: 32%
2011: 31%
2010: 32%

This is not evidence he's cheating, just that your statement is incorrect and he does great at Churchill when he has his best stock there.

[maclr11]

Horses routinely figure it out an change forms
Ness does his best to find horses with early speed that are ready to peak and then I would assume his vet bills are humongous as they pull out stops to win

[VeryOldMan]

Ness does his best to find horses with early speed that are ready to peak and then I would assume his vet bills are humongous as they pull out stops to win

How much of the success of "supertrainers" like Amoss (and Ness) is due to very aggressive use of permitted drugs and treatments? I have trouble trying to sort out the possible effects of heavy "legal" drug use on their win percentage versus improvement that comes from completely illegal stuff. When I see most violations resulting from overages of permitted drugs, it makes me think they are operating more on the ragged edge of the "legal" drug side. Anyone closer to the sport than I am able to shed some light on this?

[maclr11]

That's what I would think
Guys are always trying to test the rules on legal limit
Like giving bute 44 hours out instead of 48 or something

[Stillriledup]

Perhaps a dumb question, but, couldn't these trainers be fined for scratching without a legit cause?

CJ is right, horsemen are completely in charge of everything, the tracks and racing secretaries are just their pawns in a big game of Risk.

[nijinski]

Welcome to my world. Supertrainers tend to scratch a lot. Not wasting starts in races that come up tough is part of maintaining a superior win precentage. In addition, peers often scratch to avoid the sort of bullet- proof chalk sent out by supertrainers.

Either way, the result is short fields, which the racing sec DOES sometimes catch flack about. Sadly, we can no longer take entries at face value, but must instead speculate on who will scratch and who will honor the commitment to run.

I can't imagine the headaches you have to deal with .
.

[menifee]

Amoss in the short fall meet at Churchill doesn't do that well. He's prepping for the Fair Grounds, his home base. He doesn't run many horses.

However, here are the Amoss winning percentages at Churchill in the Spring meet:
2012: 32%
2011: 31%
2010: 32%

This is not evidence he's cheating, just that your statement is incorrect and he does great at Churchill when he has his best stock there.

I stand corrected about Churchill. My overall impression of Amoss is that he is good when he plays in the minor leagues, but when he runs against the top trainers, he does not do well. He can win at high levels running in lower/moderate level claiming races and N1x allowance races, but when it comes to stakes races, he is not there. Same with Ness. Amoss's last Breeders Cup horse ran in 2000 (13 years ago) and finished third.

It appears to me that a lot of times, Amoss just drops and pops his horses (especially in the Louisiana and Indiana circuit). They are much better in class than their competition. I did find this article, however.

http://espn.go.com/horse-racing/story/_/id/7657076/amoss-faces-stiff-fine-suspension-indiana

[VeryOldMan]

But do those Class 4 violations mean anything? That's what I'm trying to sort out - looks like he's been caught at the ragged edge of permitted drugs, but I'm still looking for evidence of the truly illegal stuff like "frog juice". Aggressive "legal" drug use coupled with good owners and economies of scale could explain his high winning percentage. I couldn't pick Amoss out of a lineup to save my life so I have no dog in this fight. I am just trying to understand the evidence here. Help me out.

[Track Phantom]

Here's an informative article (http://www.rmtcnet.com/content_headlines.asp?id=&s=&article=1047) specifically about Amoss himself, the penalty process, methocarbomol, Naproxen (Aleve), and federalism in the nation of horse racing. The money quote is

Next time you want to read feces spread over a white document, let me know and I'll brew up something for you.

That is the most ridiculous, self serving, uninformed pile of horsesh*t I've ever seen put together on a single page.

Thanks for sharing.

[Track Phantom]

I don't see the proof or any reason to label him a cheat or slime or anything
of the sort .

Sheep.

Since when did our culture evolve to a court room where we have to show every piece of evidence in order to form a common sense opinion.

Do I know Tom Amoss is cheating? I have absolutely no clue what this guy does. I do know that when you compile all of the data points (something, by the way, I do for a living), you'll find the liklihood that he is playing by the exact same legal boundaries as other trainers is borderline impossible.

The guy is either doing one of three things (including Ness in this and other absurdly ridiculous move ups and win percentages):

Playing by very honest rules and all very legal and open practices but just much, much better than 99% of the other trainers.
Staying within the "technical" term of legal. Using drugs and other methods that aren't on the "illegal list" but are gaining a performance enhancing edge. These practices, although not illegal at the moment, if disclosed would be labeled as taking an unfair edge (likely leading to the movement to these methods to the illegal list).
Cheating.
#1 seems absurd. Until someone can explain some specifics how a trainer can win 41% first off the claim in 250 cases using only very open and legal methods, I deem it impossible.

That leaves us with #2 or #3. Pretty fine line between the two.

[Track Phantom]

No comparison . In fact if Amoss were to transfuse the blood of his runners.
Why hasn't he won the BC or a Derby ?
I don't see any likeness in him and Armstrong .
Again you throw around the word doper very loosely and frankly , you don't
know what you're talking about .

You're missing the point or just choosing to be aloof on this.

1. It has been proven that many (MANY) cheaters that have been doping to gain an illegal edge have found ways to beat the tests.

Thus, how do we trust the tests as evidence of being clean? You can't. You can only trust your common sense in this debate.

When Barry Bonds grew a head the size of a van and hit 80 homeruns, did you need a test or specific evidence to know this guy was cheating? If you did, you are choosing to look past the obvious.

I believe Tom Amoss and Jamie Ness have a comparable van sized heads.

[nijinski]

You're missing the point or just choosing to be aloof on this.

1. It has been proven that many (MANY) cheaters that have been doping to gain an illegal edge have found ways to beat the tests.

Thus, how do we trust the tests as evidence of being clean? You can't. You can only trust your common sense in this debate.

When Barry Bonds grew a head the size of a van and hit 80 homeruns, did you need a test or specific evidence to know this guy was cheating? If you did, you are choosing to look past the obvious.

I believe Tom Amoss and Jamie Ness have a comparable van sized heads.

I can't imagine these trainers , specifically the ones mentioned like Ness and Amoss wouldn't know they are being watched and thoroughly tested .

I don't think their claims are feeling better due to just ice buckets either .
My problem is with the with the lack of proof .

My guess is that they are spending more . We know Midwest does . Moss certainly can .
Smaller barns may not be able to afford to assist the horses ankles with
"Legend" injections or chiropractic back manipulation , just examples . All perfectly legal .
I'm just saying , there are options to aid a horse if the the money is spent .

Testing samples are being split , something would show up . We know Amoss''samples went to UC Davis . Haven't heard of any narcotic findings .
That's why I won't label him a cheater .

With that said , I totally frown on anyone in the business that would give a stimulant to a horse . It's been done in the past and the guilty were caught .

Any Vet and good horseman would know they would be putting their runner
at very high risk of arrythmia and sudden death by cardiac arrest and the
red flags would be going up .

I think we need real facts , that's all I'm saying .

[thaskalos]

I can't imagine these trainers , specifically the ones mentioned like Ness and Amoss wouldn't know they are being watched and thoroughly tested .

I don't think their claims are feeling better due to just ice buckets either .
My problem is with the with the lack of proof .

My guess is that they are spending more . We know Midwest does . Moss certainly can .
Smaller barns may not be able to afford to assist the horses ankles with
"Legend" injections or chiropractic back manipulation , just examples . All perfectly legal .
I'm just saying , there are options to aid a horse if the the money is spent .

Testing samples are being split , something would show up . We know Amoss''samples went to UC Davis . Haven't heard of any narcotic findings .
That's why I won't label him a cheater .

With that said , I totally frown on anyone in the business that would give a stimulant to a horse . It's been done in the past and the guilty were caught .

Any Vet and good horseman would know they would be putting their runner
at very high risk of arrythmia and sudden death by cardiac arrest and the
red flags would be going up .

I think we need real facts , that's all I'm saying .

The facts are gloomy, and have been known for years.

The testing laboratories are terribly underfunded and woefully unequipped to deal with the present drug problem plaguing the game...and no money can be found with which to try and remedy the situation.

The cheaters are always a step or two ahead of the testers...and this is a fact that has been widely reported -- by prominent track veterinarians, racing officials, and trainers alike.

[Track Phantom]

The facts are gloomy, and have been known for years.

The testing laboratories are terribly underfunded and woefully unequipped to deal with the present drug problem plaguing the game...and no money can be found with which to try and remedy the situation.

The cheaters are always a step or two ahead of the testers...and this is a fact that has been widely reported -- by prominent track veterinarians, racing officials, and trainers alike.

So, if this is fact, why even pay any attention to a trainers test record? If they know how to beat one test, they should be able to beat them all.

The only device we have at our disposal to identify cheaters is our own common sense.

[thaskalos]

So, if this is fact, why even pay any attention to a trainers test record? If they know how to beat one test, they should be able to beat them all.

The only device we have at our disposal to identify cheaters is our own common sense.

I don't pay any attention at all to trainer test records.

I see the truth unfolding in front of me every day...while I play this game.

Am I supposed to wait until the drug testers catch up to the Juan Carlos Guerreros, the Wayne Catalanos, and the Jamie Nesses of the world...before I take my precautions?

Let the customer beware.

[maclr11]

If you honestly think the game is that corrupt like some people seem to then you really just need to quit
If these guys are cheating your never going to win

[thaskalos]

If you honestly think the game is that corrupt like some people seem to then you really just need to quit
If these guys are cheating your never going to win

When we see that we can't win anymore, then we'll quit. We are not there yet...but we are getting closer than we have ever been.

I don't know about other players...but I have been forced to keep track of things that I never thought I would have to consider, in order to keep my head above water in this game.

I was never much of a trainer stat handicapper, but I have found that this has now become a necessity. And not just the "popular" trainer stats...

I now keep track of horses who receive peculiar betting action...and relate it to the horses' connections and subsequent results.

And I also classify trainers according to their prowess with well-bet or longshot starters. Among other things...

It angers me when I have to pay as much attention to the human connections as I do to the horses...but I don't make or enforce the rules...and I do what I have to do.

And I must confess...this is no longer the game that I fell in love with...

[Stillriledup]

If you honestly think the game is that corrupt like some people seem to then you really just need to quit
If these guys are cheating your never going to win

A lot of this has to do with trainers like this 'ruining' the handicapping process. Most players could care less who's cheating as long as the races are competitive, trainers are winning 10 to 15 percent, humans arent a factor and its all about horses. When it becomes about trainers, when it becomes trainer racing and not horse racing, it becomes a different game than the game we all learned to play.

A bettor who thinks the game is crooked can still bet as long as he or she stays away from the 'supertrainer races' and just stick to betting HORSE races.

[lamboguy]

the racing form has done nothing but raise its prices, after the increases there are declining sales. if i were them, i would offer detailed injury, vet, and medication lists and charge a few dollars more for their publication, they would get an on slot of of prior and new readers of their publications.

i would love to know if we can find one valued horse player in North America that would not be willing to pay to have this information show up on their computer screens.

[maclr11]

The game changes, adapt or die
Look at the game before speed figures or before the use of lasix or whatever
Racing changes just like everything else in life
Don't be dinosaurs wishing for the game to stay the same forever
Trainers are going to get smarter, owners are going to get smarter
It takes money to make money and that is more than anything a deciding factor in this game.
Vets are huge trainers now a days in their own ways.
Look at all the things you can do to help a horses performance
Lasix, a pre race NSAID, Tapping joints, equipment changes, sarapin and the numbing of joints, shockwave machines, hot and cold treatments, acupuncture, chiropractors, top of the line food, supplements, vitamins, new advancements in training and techniques
As long as there has been racing people have been trying new things to try to win, why just now is everyone throwing their arms up about it?
There have always been super trainers
D. Wayne Lukas revolutionized the game with his stable set up
The Maryland Claiming trainers used to be unbeatable Dutrow, Leatherbury, John Tammaro and Bud Delp

The drugs that these guys are pushing the limits with are being used by everyone
Richard Mandella, Bill Mott, James Jerkens all have violations and that was just glancing quickly
Everybody uses them, its just who has the balls to push a little more in
If it was your money as an owner/trainer you cant say you wouldnt

[maclr11]

Posting information like that in the form would turn off the entire new age crew
So it might work for a generation or two but the game would be crippled becasue new potential players would be chased away
And also the mentality trainers and owners have that if I'm doing something legal and its my horse and my money why should I have to tell you what I'm doing, that would be like having to show which days you jogged the horse, which days you changed his shoes and what days you cleaned his dick

[thaskalos]

The game changes, adapt or die
Look at the game before speed figures or before the use of lasix or whatever
Racing changes just like everything else in life
Don't be dinosaurs wishing for the game to stay the same forever
Trainers are going to get smarter, owners are going to get smarter
It takes money to make money and that is more than anything a deciding factor in this game.
Vets are huge trainers now a days in their own ways.
Look at all the things you can do to help a horses performance
Lasix, a pre race NSAID, Tapping joints, equipment changes, sarapin and the numbing of joints, shockwave machines, hot and cold treatments, acupuncture, chiropractors, top of the line food, supplements, vitamins, new advancements in training and techniques
As long as there has been racing people have been trying new things to try to win, why just now is everyone throwing their arms up about it?
There have always been super trainers
D. Wayne Lukas revolutionized the game with his stable set up
The Maryland Claiming trainers used to be unbeatable Dutrow, Leatherbury, John Tammaro and Bud Delp

The drugs that these guys are pushing the limits with are being used by everyone
Richard Mandella, Bill Mott, James Jerkens all have violations and that was just glancing quickly
Everybody uses them, its just who has the balls to push a little more in
If it was your money as an owner/trainer you cant say you wouldnt

No, my friend...

It won't be the PLAYERS who will have to adapt or die; it will be the trainers and the racetrack owners. Once the casino handouts dry up -- and they will -- you will hear the trainers and the track owners yell like stuck pigs.

The player will just move on to other things...assuming he has the brains to quit while he still has some money in his pocket.

[maclr11]

I think were gonna to have to agree to disagree
Once the casino money dries up there will be a collection of major racetracks left
Training methods, technology, and money are all things that are going to stay in the game, the trainers on the national level have changed the game and there is no going back because there will always be a new drug, a new method a new something
So yes the bottom level trainers will be weeded out, and track owners
but the game will revolve around all the big trainers running against each other week in and week out
Handle will increase and so will the competition
This will just continue to fuel trainers to innovate like they are doing so the trainers who are making money are adapting
And players who want to make money will have to adapt to the new era as well

[bks]

The horsemen run the game. But if the horsemen run the game, and the horsemen are breaking the game's rules, then who precisely is going to enforce the rules in a meaningful way?

Most people, even trainers I suspect, are decent people and are constrained by their own sense of right and wrong. Supertrainers will take the approach that because there is a great deal of latitude in the way the rules are enforced and tests are handled, NOT taking that latitude amounts to underserving their owners and 'cheating' themselves out of money. They rationalize that the existing rules, even if followed to the letter, are inadequate to protect the well-being of horses anyway. The rules aren't really designed to do that first and foremost, unfortunately (the animals don't make the rules).

So the supertrainers stretch the boundaries of the permissible beyond what makes the rest of us comfortable, because they recognize there is insufficient will within the game to confront them hard (with the odd exception). It's worth the risk to them, and it'll stay that way as long as their more rule-abiding brethren lack the guts to confront them in an organized fashion, and also lack the willingness to have a brighter light shined on their own practices. This, I suspect, is the biggest obstacle.

Nothing else will change this, outside of a well organized players movement for which the prospects seem pretty dim. Deeply exploited workers often can't get themselves sufficiently organized to effectively fight class-based injustice; recreational horseplayers aren't likely to, either.

[rastajenk]

Valento, what didn't you like about my link? :cool:

[LLHorses]

Maclr11 says,

"If you honestly think the game is that corrupt"

:lol:



I'm sorry but everything you said after that is not worth reading. You've got your head in the sand if you can't figure out that this game is corrupt. You're uninformed.

I'm just hoping for the day the FEDS decide something has to be done. They throw people in jail for shaving points or fixing ONE basketball or football game but they let trainers, jockeys, and owners get away with fixing horse races day after day after day at every horse racing track in this country.

If one of these trainers gets thrown in jail that might be the day things change. That will get the attention of the rest of the crooks.


But you did give out some good advice in that same post Maclr11 and that is "to just quit". Horse racing is fun to talk about but betting on it is a very dumb thing to do.

[Track Phantom]

The horsemen run the game. But if the horsemen run the game, and the horsemen are breaking the game's rules, then who precisely is going to enforce the rules in a meaningful way?

Most people, even trainers I suspect, are decent people and are constrained by their own sense of right and wrong. Supertrainers will take the approach that because there is a great deal of latitude in the way the rules are enforced and tests are handled, NOT taking that latitude amounts to underserving their owners and 'cheating' themselves out of money. They rationalize that the existing rules, even if followed to the letter, are inadequate to protect the well-being of horses anyway. The rules aren't really designed to do that first and foremost, unfortunately (the animals don't make the rules).

So the supertrainers stretch the boundaries of the permissible beyond what makes the rest of us comfortable, because they recognize there is insufficient will within the game to confront them hard (with the odd exception). It's worth the risk to them, and it'll stay that way as long as their more rule-abiding brethren lack the guts to confront them in an organized fashion, and also lack the willingness to have a brighter light shined on their own practices. This, I suspect, is the biggest obstacle.

Nothing else will change this, outside of a well organized players movement for which the prospects seem pretty dim. Deeply exploited workers often can't get themselves sufficiently organized to effectively fight class-based injustice; recreational horseplayers aren't likely to, either.

Well put.

I'm sure you hit the nail on the head. Trainers like Bill Mott and the like have had to, I'm sure, adapt to this world of racing. If you remember right, 8-10 years ago, long after the run Mott had with Cigar and about the time that drugs were creating the Scott Lake's of the world, Bill Mott's numbers dipped. There was a stretch, I believe (haven't looked) that he was winning in the low teens to single digit percentage-wise. My thought there is he was getting overrun by the Jamie Ness type trainers. He adapted to the environment and now wins at a competitive level.

From all indications, Mott is a good guy. Most people don't have a problem with him although it is highly likely that he is not totally clean. It is probably impossible to be so today and win.

I believe it is the guys like Jamie Ness, Tom Amoss, Wayne Catalano, etc. that win at such high percentages that turn people off. When a guy wins 41% first off the claim with 250 horses, you absolutely know that cannot be done. There is no way you can be right that often in this game. It ruins the handicapping, betting and enjoyment of the game.

[Track Phantom]

If you honestly think the game is that corrupt like some people seem to then you really just need to quit
If these guys are cheating your never going to win

Can you be more dull and obvious?

At this point, there are still areas of the game worth playing, but like another poster said, the cons are catching up daily with the pros and it is becoming harder to justify.

"IF" these guys are cheating, we are never going to win? Are you in pre-school? First off, they are cheating. Secondly, someone "wins" in every race. There are still races in which longshots win and you can be on them. Hell, I won a 38k pick 4 at DMR last August, so winning or losing has nothing to do with my disdain for the condition horse racing is in.

Please chime in with something worthy of the conversation next time out.

[usedtolovetvg]

One would have to be pretty naive not to include cheating in your handicapping.

[LLHorses]

If you honestly think the game is that corrupt like some people seem to then you really just need to quit
If these guys are cheating your never going to win






Here's a New York Times article for you to read. It might help you understand the extent of the problem. It was written 9/21/12, about 5 months ago.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/22/us/at-the-track-racing-economics-collide-with-veterinarians-oath.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[BIG49010]

I think it was Scott McMannis in Chicago that said, who cares what they put in these horses to run fast, just put notes as to what they are on the program, so we have a chance.

We figured out lasix and bute, give us the rest of menu! I've heard that the average vet bill for an FCL horse is several thousand a month, anybody else hear these kind of numbers?

[maclr11]

Guys you don't get that it's not that easy to turn a horses performance
It's not like you just flip a life switch , every horse is different and needs different attention
So if you guys think the game is that corrupt
Which I know it isn't , then they should just racing down
By since trainers still are the worst touts in the world they have no idea if they will win or not which makes the game seem a lot less corrupt
I'd like to see some people on the backside seeing that these super trainers operate in a very cool manner to watch

[TJDave]

I think it was Scott McMannis in Chicago that said, who cares what they put in these horses to run fast, just put notes as to what they are on the program, so we have a chance.



Unlike athletes in other sports, horses can't say no. :mad:

[castaway01]

Guys you don't get that it's not that easy to turn a horses performance
It's not like you just flip a life switch , every horse is different and needs different attention
So if you guys think the game is that corrupt
Which I know it isn't , then they should just racing down
By since trainers still are the worst touts in the world they have no idea if they will win or not which makes the game seem a lot less corrupt
I'd like to see some people on the backside seeing that these super trainers operate in a very cool manner to watch

Of course the game is corrupt, but so is virtually every sport. The NCAA isn't corrupt? There is currently a huge game-fixing scandal in European soccer. The Tour de France has no cheating? If we shut down the corrupt sports we'd have none left. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to clean it up though.

[thaskalos]

Of course the game is corrupt, but so is virtually every sport. The NCAA isn't corrupt? There is currently a huge game-fixing scandal in European soccer. The Tour de France has no cheating? If we shut down the corrupt sports we'd have none left. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to clean it up though.

I agree; all the games are "corrupt".

But it hurts more when this corruption pervades a game whose survival depends solely on the wagers of its fans...

[tzipi]

Unlike athletes in other sports, horses can't say no. :mad:

Agree, exactly what Jack Van Berg said. Can't take advantage of these horses.

[PaceAdvantage]

Please chime in with something worthy of the conversation next time out.Br sure to follow your own advice...or can we look forward to more stimulating and enlightening talk of "butt buddies" emanating from your keyboard?

Honestly, some of you need to be reminded that this message board is NOT a free-for-all for your amusement... :mad:

[LLHorses]

Would you like to explain to me why you took Asmussen's name out of my post?

Do you know he was suspended in 2006 in Louisiana for 6 months for Mepivicaine?

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/34318/blasi-taking-over-for-suspended-asmussen


New Mexico was after him at that same time for an Acepromazine violation and they reciprocated the 6 month suspension from Louisiana.


http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/36697/asmussen-case-remains-in-dispute-in-new-mexico


Did you know that his frequency of medication violations was one of the highest in the sport in 2010? (scroll down to the middle of the page and there is a chart of repeat offenders)


http://www.horsefund.org/the-chemical-horse-part-9.php

Look at all those crooks/cheats and Asmussen's name right in the middle of them and look at that Tom Amoss's name is on there too the subject of this thread. :eek: How about that PaceAdvantage?




But you keep editing my posts big guy because I know you get a big thrill out of it. :D

[PaceAdvantage]

Would you like to explain to me why you took Asmussen's name out of my post?

Do you know he was suspended in 2006 in Louisiana for 6 months for Mepivicaine?

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/34318/blasi-taking-over-for-suspended-asmussen


New Mexico was after him at that same time for an Acepromazine violation and they reciprocated the 6 month suspension from Louisiana.


http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/36697/asmussen-case-remains-in-dispute-in-new-mexico


Did you know that his frequency of medication violations was one of the highest in the sport in 2010? (scroll down to the middle of the page and there is a chart of repeat offenders)


http://www.horsefund.org/the-chemical-horse-part-9.php

Look at all those crooks/cheats and Asmussen's name right in the middle of them and look at that Tom Amoss's name is on there too the subject of this thread. :eek: How about that PaceAdvantage?




But you keep editing my posts big guy because I know you get a big thrill out of it. :DHonestly, some of you need to be reminded that this message board is NOT a free-for-all for your amusement...

[RXB]

Did you know that his frequency of medication violations was one of the highest in the sport in 2010? (scroll down to the middle of the page and there is a chart of repeat offenders)


http://www.horsefund.org/the-chemical-horse-part-9.php

Look at all those crooks/cheats and Asmussen's name right in the middle of them and look at that Tom Amoss's name is on there too the subject of this thread. :eek: How about that PaceAdvantage?



That chart is not a list of the most frequent cheaters in racing; it shows the starters-to-violations ratios for only the 20 highest purse-winning trainers during a specific period. Amoss' ratio was actually better than the average for that group.

[rastajenk]

He keeps pretty good company for a bottom-feeder.

[LLHorses]

That chart is not a list of the most frequent cheaters in racing; it shows the starters-to-violations ratios for only the 20 highest purse-winning trainers during a specific period. Amoss' ratio was actually better than the average for that group.






You're right and I tried to edit my post for that reason but it was past the 15 minutes that you get for editing.

The point I was trying to make is that Asmussen is no choir boy and he has plenty of medication violations. But Paceadvantage decided that my using his name in a post about cheaters was too much and pulled his name out of my post.

I've been posting on the internet for a long time and dealt with a lot of moderators who were on power trips and this Paceadvantage guy from what I've seen is right up there with the best of them in that regard. He likes to change posts and censor people. He's done it many times to me.

And I don't care if he tosses me off of here or not. There's plenty of other places for me to post about horse racing. I don't need to kiss that guys butt.

So I'll be holding my breath awaiting the little Nazi's decision. :lol:

Nice talking to you people during my time here.

[Valuist]

I've been posting on the internet for a long time and dealt with a lot of moderators who were on power trips and this Paceadvantage guy from what I've seen is right up there with the best of them in that regard. He likes to change posts and censor people. He's done it many times to me.



He's changed many of your posts? I find that hard to believe. You've barely 50 posts on here.

[LLHorses]

He's changed many of your posts? I find that hard to believe. You've barely 50 posts on here.



He's done it several times. Matter of fact, he's pretty much been following me around this place since I signed up. One time all I did was quote some guy and post a smiley under some guys post which meant that it was a funny post and it was too much for Paceadvantage and he took it down.

I pretty much stopped posting here because of the censorship but have been posting the last few days and I now realize why I stopped posting.

He'll probably delete this stuff and ban me. So what. Like I said, I've come across moderators like this guy many times before.

[PaceAdvantage]

The point I was trying to make is that Asmussen is no choir boy and he has plenty of medication violations. But Paceadvantage decided that my using his name in a post about cheaters was too much and pulled his name out of my post.Don't start making things up. That wasn't your only point, for if it were, your post wouldn't have been edited.

When you start taking responsibility for what is posted here by giving us your real identity, then you can write whatever you wish...if you wish to remain anonymous, then you'll just have to deal...

[Tom]

We are guests here.

[PaceAdvantage]

He's changed many of your posts? I find that hard to believe. You've barely 50 posts on here.You're forgetting...he or she is probably counting all the posts under former screen names. :lol:

[cj]

... One time all I did was quote some guy and post a smiley under some guys post which meant that it was a funny post and it was too much for Paceadvantage and he took it down...

That was me. I do that to any and all posts I see that are nothing but emoticons, even PAs!

[Track Phantom]

When you start taking responsibility for what is posted here by giving us your real identity, then you can write whatever you wish...if you wish to remain anonymous, then you'll just have to deal...

I understand your name is tied to the information posted here. I've had forums myself and know it can be a slippery slope. I will try to be sensitive to that fact.

Having said that, my handle is my last name. Not exactly trying to be anonymous. :)

None of us here have some personal vendetta against these trainers. However, we have "invested" tons of money into this game and are key players in its lifeline. It is very hard to keep a respectful attitude towards these people we know are, for all intents and purposes, siphoning money from us illegally. At least that is how I feel. Until the powers that be start taking an interest in protecting the players, I will be loud, boisterous and a complete jerk to every one of these trainers. Would have no problems saying these very things to their face.

[Stillriledup]

I understand your name is tied to the information posted here. I've had forums myself and know it can be a slippery slope. I will try to be sensitive to that fact.

Having said that, my handle is my last name. Not exactly trying to be anonymous. :)

None of us here have some personal vendetta against these trainers. However, we have "invested" tons of money into this game and are key players in its lifeline. It is very hard to keep a respectful attitude towards these people we know are, for all intents and purposes, siphoning money from us illegally. At least that is how I feel. Until the powers that be start taking an interest in protecting the players, I will be loud, boisterous and a complete jerk to every one of these trainers. Would have no problems saying these very things to their face.

I love this post! Will you be my Valento-ine? :D

[PaceAdvantage]

That was me. I do that to any and all posts I see that are nothing but emoticons, even PAs!I was going to try and explain to him/her, but then I thought, why bother? He/she is only going to read and comprehend what gets past their biased filter.

This guy/gal has a thing for me...lots of people do around here...it doesn't phase me any longer...

[mountainman]

I think it was Scott McMannis in Chicago that said, who cares what they put in these horses to run fast, just put notes as to what they are on the program, so we have a chance.

We figured out lasix and bute, give us the rest of menu! I've heard that the average vet bill for an FCL horse is several thousand a month, anybody else hear these kind of numbers?

If there were no art or special expertise requisite to enhancing performance, there would BE no 3% trainers. It's not as simple as finding out what the flavor of the month is and blamming a horse's head off. Offenders endeavor to avoid detection, and the really skilled ones almost invariably do. And in most cases, their drug of choice isn't so mysterious-it's about how boldly and artfully the substance is administered. Clenbuterol is well known to insiders as the mac daddy of abused drugs, and backstretch lore is replete with tales of trainers injecting it UNBELIEVABLY close to post.

[RXB]

If there were no art or special expertise requisite to enhancing performance, there would BE no 3% trainers. It's not as simple as finding out what the flavor of the month is and blamming a horse's head off. Offenders endeavor to avoid detection, and the really skilled ones almost invariably do. And in most cases, their drug of choice isn't so mysterious-it's about how boldly and artfully the substance is administered. Clenbuterol is well known to insiders as the mac daddy of abused drugs, and backstretch lore is replete with tales of trainers injecting it UNBELIEVABLY close to post.

When you've retired from Mountaineer and moved to that tiny island in the Caribbean or South Pacific, living the simple yet good life, hopefully you'll take the time to pen a book titled What Really Goes On At A Racetrack.

[mountainman]

When you've retired from Mountaineer and moved to that tiny island in the Caribbean or South Pacific, living the simple yet good life, hopefully you'll take the time to pen a book titled What Really Goes On At A Racetrack.

Some of my blogs probably go too far, but candor has never hurt my career.

[cj]

Some of my blogs probably go too far, but candor has never hurt my career.

You guys still going to take entries from Scooter Davis? I see he comes off his 483 suspension soon, not counting those that were pinned on his girlfriend when horses ran in her name during one of his other suspensions.

[rrpic6]

You guys still going to take entries from Scooter Davis? I see he comes off his 483 suspension soon, not counting those that were pinned on his girlfriend when horses ran in her name during one of his other suspensions.
Scooter "The Shooter" Davis. Spring is in the air when you hear his name.

RR

[mountainman]

You guys still going to take entries from Scooter Davis? I see he comes off his 483 suspension soon, not counting those that were pinned on his girlfriend when horses ran in her name during one of his other suspensions.

I won't know that until I return to work later this month. I have heard he's now a management exclusion at ct. But I can't confirm it. If so, that's a major setback for he and his owners, who were reportedly planning a complete relocation to down there.

[cj]

Speaking of Scooter!

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/davis-shanyfelt-get-the-boot-at-charles-town/

Hats off to CharlesTown.

[Stillriledup]

Congrats to Tom Aamos and Maggi Moss, DELAUNAY at the Fair Grounds!

[cj]

Yes, another romp over the very good Gantry. He looks like the early BC Sprint fave right now.

[cj]

Yes, another romp over the very good Gantry. He looks like the early BC Sprint fave right now.

And yet another romp...

[Stillriledup]

And yet another romp...
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=101683&highlight=shine

Let em shine is still better. ;)

[Stillriledup]

Hot wind, claimed for 8k by Amoss about a month ago, steps up to a little bit higher level, receives 124 lbs (never carried more than 119) off a win at 15-1 last time. Gets bet down to 1-5 last flash, after sitting on the board at 4-5 or 1-1 the entire way, and romps going away.

Amoss batting .50 percent at the Indiana meet.

[Track Phantom]

I noticed Chad Brown has 7 wins in 8 starts (the other was a 2nd place finish) at Parx. I know he has decent stock but c'mon.

[Stillriledup]

I noticed Chad Brown has 7 wins in 8 starts (the other was a 2nd place finish) at Parx. I know he has decent stock but c'mon.

The red light should go on with these percentages, nobody is that good.

[Stillriledup]

Hot wind, claimed for 8k by Amoss about a month ago, steps up to a little bit higher level, receives 124 lbs (never carried more than 119) off a win at 15-1 last time. Gets bet down to 1-5 last flash, after sitting on the board at 4-5 or 1-1 the entire way, and romps going away.

Amoss batting .50 percent at the Indiana meet.

Amoss current record at FG:

53: 24 11 6

[chadk66]

Amoss current record at FG:

53: 24 11 6holy crap

[Stillriledup]

What happened to this guy, he's disappeared off tvg as well as training?

[no breathalyzer]

What happened to this guy, he's disappeared off tvg as well as training?

He's on vacation :ThmbUp:

[Stillriledup]

He's on vacation :ThmbUp:

Interesting. :D

[reckless]

Maggi Moss has raced a few horses at Keeneland to date and Chris Hartman was her listed trainer.

I find it odd that Amoss, or any well-regarded trainer, would take a vacation during a premier race meet that he usually competes at.

[Stillriledup]

Maggi Moss has raced a few horses at Keeneland to date and Chris Hartman was her listed trainer.

I find it odd that Amoss, or any well-regarded trainer, would take a vacation during a premier race meet that he usually competes at.

Hopefully he didnt Forget the suntan lotion and the piña colada mix.

;)

[cj]

What happened to this guy, he's disappeared off tvg as well as training?

He heard Todd Schrupp say he looked like me and figured that was the pinnacle of his career. What else is left to accomplish after that?

[Stillriledup]

He heard Todd Schrupp say he looked like me and figured that was the pinnacle of his career. What else is left to accomplish after that?

:lol:

Nothing!! Great point.

[TonyK@HSH]

Tom Amoss is on days for medication infractions

[Donttellmeshowme]

He got days and hes gearing up for FG meet.

[Tall One]

The Indiana Horse Racing Commission March 10 upheld an administrative law judge’s order that trainer Tom Amoss be suspended 60 days and fined $5,000 in a therapeutic medication case that has dragged on for more than three years.

Meanwhile, the IHRC also approved a settlement agreement with Quarter Horse trainer Ron Raper, who was found to have received “contraband” and to have injected horses within 24 hours of races in 2014 at Indiana Grand Race Course. But because Raper provided information for an IHRC investigation, and agreed to continue to cooperate in ongoing investigations, his four-year suspension was reduced to one year and his $20,000 fine eliminated.

The convoluted Amoss case was triggered by an October 2011 positive in a sample taken from an Amoss-trained horse at Hoosier Park Racing & Casino for the therapeutic medication methocarbamol, a muscle relaxant. Since that time the issue of multiple medication violations and what is believed to be an unprecedented third test on the same sample became major factors in the case.


They gave the horse Somas...talking about slooooowing things down.

[Stillriledup]

He's BAAAAAAAack and not a minute too soon, the game was suffering without him, if I may speak For 'the game' it's our honor to have you back Tom!!