Who is the biggest "Supertrainer"?

[Track Phantom]

Is there a trainer out there that is the biggest "supertrainer" for lack of a better word? It used to be Jeff Mullins back about 8-10 years ago. Before that, it was Scott Lake. Who leads the pack now?

[lamboguy]

Lou Ruberto

Miguel Silva

Mike Chambers

Ralph Comi

[gheuks]

Jamie Ness

[Track Phantom]

It has to be Jamie Ness, doesn't it?

[Stillriledup]

It has to be Jamie Ness, doesn't it?

I dont know if Its Jamie Ness or it isnt Jamie Ness, but i know one thing, if he's in a race, i skip it. (are you listening NYRA?)

[Track Phantom]

I dont know if Its Jamie Ness or it isnt Jamie Ness, but i know one thing, if he's in a race, i skip it. (are you listening NYRA?)

I wonder what he is using? I'm really surprised nobody can catch him. Apparently, he's way too smart.

[lamboguy]

I wonder what he is using? I'm really surprised nobody can catch him. Apparently, he's way too smart.i don't think he is using anything that is illegal. what do you think he is using?

[Stillriledup]

I wonder what he is using? I'm really surprised nobody can catch him. Apparently, he's way too smart.

He might be the greatest trainer who's ever come along in our lifetimes, all i know is that when he's in a race, i pass. I prefer to bet on horse racing and not really worry too much about the humans. When the humans become too much of a factor, i just skip it and wait for the next one.

[PICSIX]

i don't think he is using anything that is illegal. what do you think he is using?

http://medivetdirect.com/index.php?main_page=product_music_info&cPath=34&products_id=121

[lamboguy]

http://medivetdirect.com/index.php?main_page=product_music_info&cPath=34&products_id=121there is nothing illegal about TB-500,,,,,,its advertised in THE BLOOD HORSE. it ain't cheap though! and i know they have this stuff back ordered

[wonatthewire1]

A little less obvious

Sadler and Amoss

[PICSIX]

I know it's not illegal. It's a synthetic peptide that does some amazing things according to several testimonials by individuals in the body building/strength training community. If you check the internet you will find it can be purchased in bulk at discounted prices by anyone (no veterinary license required).

This could be one of the things the "Super Trainers" are using???

[lamboguy]

I know it's not illegal. It's a synthetic peptide that does some amazing things according to several testimonials by individuals in the body building/strength training community. If you check the internet you will find it can be purchased in bulk at discounted prices by anyone (no veterinary license required).

This could be one of the things the "Super Trainers" are using???the horses also focus better on the stuff. what i don't know is that once you start giving horses this stuff, you better keep using it otherwise the horse won't go.

if the racing game is going to allow this bullshit to go on, they sure as hell better make a rule that trainers and vets have to disclose ahead of time what type of substances they are pumping into the horses guts. without doing this it makes the claiming game a one way street and is grossly unfair to the bettors of the game.

for the record i have never pumped any of this crap into a horse with my knowledge. and i never will, simply because i don't know how good or bad this or anything else is for the health of the horse.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...

if the racing game is going to allow this bullshit to go on, they sure as hell better make a rule that trainers and vets have to disclose ahead of time what type of substances they are pumping into the horses guts. ...

What would that do? If it isn't being tested and isn't specifically banned, are you just going to use the honor system of reporting?

[Stillriledup]

Tracks need to start carding races where 'trainers who at the current meet have over a .22 percent win percentage in 10 starts or more ineligible'. Just add this condition to the race and you're all set, you dont have to spend a ton of money on fancy testing, just create races like this so one owner/ trainer doesnt win all the money.

[pele polo]

I wonder what he is using? I'm really surprised nobody can catch him. Apparently, he's way too smart.

Deer Antler Spray

[lamboguy]

What would that do? If it isn't being tested and isn't specifically banned, are you just going to use the honor system of reporting?
with all these substances that horses now receive, pace number's and racing forms are useless..as i have often stated the way the racing game is structured these days the key components of the game are owner's and bettor's. if these 2 components can't function probably, there is no game. its pretty simple, this game has most of its business from people that sit at home and are not at the liberty of seeing horses in person. these people need their interest's protected. they HAVE TO KNOW what is being administered to these horses. if Japan can do this, why can't we do it in this country? if someone doesn't want to comply with stricter orders they need to be banned from the sport and have handcuffs slapped around their wrists and go off to jail where they belong.

[Track Phantom]

A little less obvious

Sadler and Amoss

Amoss is not obvious? Hmmm.....I would have his picture right near the top of the wall of shame.

[johnhannibalsmith]

with all these substances that horses now receive, pace number's and racing forms are useless..as i have often stated the way the racing game is structured these days the key components of the game are owner's and bettor's. if these 2 components can't function probably, there is no game. its pretty simple, this game has most of its business from people that sit at home and are not at the liberty of seeing horses in person. these people need their interest's protected. they HAVE TO KNOW what is being administered to these horses. if Japan can do this, why can't we do it in this country? if someone doesn't want to comply with stricter orders they need to be banned from the sport and have handcuffs slapped around their wrists and go off to jail where they belong.

Gotcha, so you want to enact a rule where trainers are going to honestly turn in volumes of reports about everything the horse ingests and is otherwise administered with no tangible way to verify the accuracy. Sounds like a plan to stop dishonest trainers to me.

[lamboguy]

Gotcha, so you want to enact a rule where trainers are going to honestly turn in volumes of reports about everything the horse ingests and is otherwise administered with no tangible way to verify the accuracy. Sounds like a plan to stop dishonest trainers to me.we know in this world there is no such thing as the honor system. but we also know that people get caught doing wrong things. there are plenty of people that get caught by the IRS for cheating on their taxes and they go away for it. there are always going to be people trying to circumvent any system, some get away with it, yet lots do get caught. same thing in horse racing, they will get caught.

[tzipi]

Ness- I won't bet a race with his "trained" horses in it.
Amoss- Super "trainer"
Ramon Morales- Don't know much about him but almost every other horse of his wins.

[wonatthewire1]

Amoss is not obvious? Hmmm.....I would have his picture right near the top of the wall of shame.

based on mentions on the forum - those who "know" know

Ness, Dutrow(s), Doug O' and Guerrero get the most mentions

[johnhannibalsmith]

we know in this world there is no such thing as the honor system. but we also know that people get caught doing wrong things. there are plenty of people that get caught by the IRS for cheating on their taxes and they go away for it. there are always going to be people trying to circumvent any system, some get away with it, yet lots do get caught. same thing in horse racing, they will get caught.

Look, its a noble endeavour. I support the premise. But I like ideas that make sense and might actually work. Your idea may be just wonderful, I just don't see how you plan to make it do anything to root out the people that are already dishonest if you can't or don't test for the substance that was being referenced and it isn't even part of any banned list. If I can't be convinced that something has a chance to actually work, going farther down the road just seems like a trip farther away from a real solution. We only seem to have one vehicle, it barely runs, gas is expensive, and time is short.

[lamboguy]

john this is very simple, the track has every right to watch and inspect the barn area. Jeff Gural is well aware of what has been going in the harness game and he is taking steps to clean up the game. since he has taken over, the handles at the Meadowlands have grown in leaps and bounds. the amount of claims have gone way up as well. so far the purses haven't gone up.

if the people that manage the major corporations want to legitimize this sport, they can create measures to insure the stability of the game.

we all know how human nature works. this country has laws on top of laws. its just a question of protecting this game.

[johnhannibalsmith]

john this is very simple...

Okay.

[nijinski]

with all these substances that horses now receive, pace number's and racing forms are useless..as i have often stated the way the racing game is structured these days the key components of the game are owner's and bettor's. if these 2 components can't function probably, there is no game. its pretty simple, this game has most of its business from people that sit at home and are not at the liberty of seeing horses in person. these people need their interest's protected. they HAVE TO KNOW what is being administered to these horses. if Japan can do this, why can't we do it in this country? if someone doesn't want to comply with stricter orders they need to be banned from the sport and have handcuffs slapped around their wrists and go off to jail where they belong.

I don't want to knock Japan but I'm so tired of the comparisons .
Therefore I will be frank . Horses are a larger part of the commodity there
than they are here . That would be in the food chain . I would say that it
could be a business decision . Less drugs IMO ending up in that part of the food chain . Less headaches later.

Are we that naive that we think that there is no mob or criminal activity
that exists abroad . Wherever there is gambling , the element exists . You do the best you can to monitor and keep it clean . None of it is perfect anywhere .
is part of a business decision , not only for the sake of racing

[proximity]

Is there a trainer out there that is the biggest "supertrainer" for lack of a better word? It used to be Jeff Mullins back about 8-10 years ago. Before that, it was Scott Lake. Who leads the pack now?

imo, the biggest and best supers win at multiple circuits simultaneously and often approach 40% for long periods of time.

i'd say the progression went scott lake, the stephanie beattie/david wells combo, and now jamie ness. a special award should also be given to steve asmussen for multi-circuit supertrainer consistency over the entire period of time!!

[Track Phantom]

Look, its a noble endeavour. I support the premise. But I like ideas that make sense and might actually work. Your idea may be just wonderful, I just don't see how you plan to make it do anything to root out the people that are already dishonest if you can't or don't test for the substance that was being referenced and it isn't even part of any banned list. If I can't be convinced that something has a chance to actually work, going farther down the road just seems like a trip farther away from a real solution. We only seem to have one vehicle, it barely runs, gas is expensive, and time is short.

Wholeheartedly agree with this post and it is well written.

Far too often, people want change without addressing the ability for that change to be implemented. A real solution would be one that had bite and is able to be administered in a reasonable and cost effective manner.

We all want the same thing. We all love the sport and want it to be as close to clean as possible. What gets frustrating is that we are left to our own accord to push for change. It appears those that have the power to do "something" do absolutely nothing.

You cannot for one minute tell me that Tampa Bay Downs does not know Supertrainer Trainer X is cheating. From my vantage point, he is allowed to do so without a hint of concern. I often wonder why racetracks have said they can "ban anyone" from their track for any reason but decide not to when there is clear evidence of cheating from a trainer.

If I were TBD, I would offer a healthy whistlebower "award" to anyone who presents hard evidence of cheating. Make the reward so high that a stable person might consider cashing in. I know this is far-fetched and not likely to happen but someone knows (and probably has proof) of what a guy like Supertrainer X is using. I'm shocked that this sport can't get testimony similar to what bicycling did with Lance Armstrong.

Clearly, there isn't a clear enough motive for anyone to clean up the sport.

[Robert Goren]

I know he gets good horses and doesn't put up with bad ones, but still it has to be Todd Pletcher.

[therussmeister]

I often wonder why racetracks have said they can "ban anyone" from their track for any reason but decide not to when there is clear evidence of cheating from a trainer.

That tracks say they can "ban anyone" for any reason does not mean they can ban anyone for any reason. They can only ban the people that can't find a halfway decent lawyer. The Richard Dutrow Jr. saga should have taught you that.

[Valuist]

I know he gets good horses and doesn't put up with bad ones, but still it has to be Todd Pletcher.

Based on the original question, it has to either be him or possibly Asmussen.

Now if the question was, who moves a horse up the most, the answer would likely be Ness, with Guerrero in hot pursuit.

[Stillriledup]

For all you guys who started handicapping in either the 70s, 80s or 90s, do you remember those years if there were supertrainers like we have today? I dont remember handicapping cards thinking "im not betting this race because the human element is in the way".

Have things changed, or was it always this way and i just didnt notice it?

[nijinski]

For all you guys who started handicapping in either the 70s, 80s or 90s, do you remember those years if there were supertrainers like we have today? I dont remember handicapping cards thinking "im not betting this race because the human element is in the way".

Have things changed, or was it always this way and i just didnt notice it?

We have alot more data to work with today , which I think is a factor on
the odds .
I think there are many other factors too . I recall jockeys like Cordero named on three mounts at times . Very hard to bet against his choices . I remember those things driving the odds down.
Cordero and Velasquez would often get the top horses , low odds . I liked
following the trainers though . At the track you could always hear , you can't get a price with this or that jock . It was like another world . .

The combinations like Maple and Stephens . Always dangerous . Even more with turf fillys ....and if a bug was hot they got live mounts and climbed up in their percentages quickly and the public backed them , they did catch on .

Certain trainers were known for sprints and others for conditioning the horses
for a route ( which was a route back when) which often followed a mile prep .
You really had to pay close attention . Today it's much more compiled , exposed for all who wanna know . IMO .

[PaceAdvantage]

For all you guys who started handicapping in either the 70s, 80s or 90s, do you remember those years if there were supertrainers like we have today? I dont remember handicapping cards thinking "im not betting this race because the human element is in the way".

Have things changed, or was it always this way and i just didnt notice it?The late Peter Ferriola was of that ilk during his prime, was he not? Oscar Barrera ring a bell? Barrera was before my time, but Ferriola was the king when I started playing in the late 80s and early 90s.

They may not have had the very LOFTY win percentages of today's supertrainers, but I believe they were just two of the supertrainers of THAT era...and they very much contributed a HUMAN ELEMENT to the handicapping process.

I'm sure if I wanted to waste more time thinking about it, I could come up with some more names...I only followed NY racing when I was starting out...others I'm sure will come up with other names from other jurisdictions from 20-30 years ago...

Oh, you had Frank Passero winning 14 in a row back in 1996....remember him?

[Stillriledup]

The late Peter Ferriola was of that ilk during his prime, was he not? Oscar Barrera ring a bell? Barrera was before my time, but Ferriola was the king when I started playing in the late 80s and early 90s.

They may not have had the very LOFTY win percentages of today's supertrainers, but I believe they were just two of the supertrainers of THAT era...and they very much contributed a HUMAN ELEMENT to the handicapping process.

I'm sure if I wanted to waste more time thinking about it, I could come up with some more names...I only followed NY racing when I was starting out...others I'm sure will come up with other names from other jurisdictions from 20-30 years ago...

I was just going to post about Barrera "O O O" as Harvey loved to call him and Pistol Pete...and you're right, those guys were the 'first' real supertrainers that came into the game that i can remember. I followed NY racing back in the day, but didnt bet it because this was pre-simulcasting and Pre-adw if i remember correctly.

I feel that for some reason, there is a difference between Oscar and Pete and the supertrainers of today from a standpoint of the fans not caring as much. Maybe it is easy to see all the bashing from message boards and social media and we didnt have this stuff back in the day, but from a handicapping standpoint, i dont remember thinking "geez, oscar has another first time claim, i can't bet the race now"

Do you remember how you felt during the Barrera and Ferriola runs and how you feel today watching Ness? Is it the same 'feel'? For me, its different, but i'm just not sure why.

(Passero, if the cayenne pepper fame? :lol: )

[PaceAdvantage]

When I was roaming the dark recesses of Aqueduct back in the day, the word "juice" was being thrown around with obnoxious ease, especially with names like Ferriola, Moschera, Parisella, etc...

Were these guys "supertrainers?" In that era, I think they were...if by supertrainer you mean guys who win under suspicion.

[Stillriledup]

When I was roaming the dark recesses of Aqueduct back in the day, the word "juice" was being thrown around with obnoxious ease, especially with names like Ferriola, Moschera, Parisella, etc...

Were these guys "supertrainers?" In that era, I think they were...if by supertrainer you mean guys who win under suspicion.

I think whoever wins a large percentage of their races OR wins a small percentage of races but when he/she wins, they run a massive new top and run off the 'sheets' numerically, people get suspicious.

Can a trainer win 30 or 35% and NOT be considered a 'suspect'? A guy like Bill Mott or Dick Mandella can theoretically shorten their barns and only run true monsters and win 25 to 30 percent and those guys won't be suspects...but these other guys, guys who learned how to train overnight and came from nowhere will be suspects in many people's eyes.

[PaceAdvantage]

Perceived reputation and likability have something to do with it as well.

Take a guy like Baffert. According to this NY Times article, he ranked third, only behind Jamie Ness and Rick Dutrow in terms of starts per medication violation.

And yet, you rarely read of him being talked about in disparaging ways here on this board, compared to a guy like Pletcher, who is ravaged here incessantly. Where did Pletcher rank on the list? Only slightly above a veritable saint when it comes to drugs and horses --- BILL MOTT.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/04/sports/04racing.html

And these are CAREER STATS we are talking about here...up to late 2010 or thereabouts...

Look at Zito, Attfield, Clement and Motion. These four are the real heroes when it comes to drugs and racing...then again, compared to a guy like Mott, these four have started a lot less horses...but the ratios hold just the same.

[Stillriledup]

Reputation and likability have something to do with it as well.

Take a guy like Baffert. According to this NY Times article, he ranked third, only behind Jamie Ness and Rick Dutrow in terms of starts per medication violation.

And yet, you rarely read him talked about in disparaging ways here on this board, compared to a guy like Pletcher, who is ravaged here incessantly. Where did Pletcher rank on the list? Only slightly above a veritable saint when it comes to drugs and horses --- BILL MOTT.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/04/sports/04racing.html

Totally agree, Baffert is teflon for whatever reason. He's also teflon in the 'running lame horses' stuff, he dropped Da Ruler to a 10k claimer on closing day at DMR last season and the horse got vet scratched with 3 mins to post in the first leg of the pick 5 and yet, nobody said a boo about it. If Doug O'Neill did this same thing, people would have had a cow and went crazy. I know Kristin Mulhall came out and bashed Doug for the Burna Dette incident but i dont believe she came out and bashed Baffert for the Tweebster situation even though the end result was the same.

Youre also totally right about Pletcher too.

Is Bob Baffert a 'nicer guy' than Doug O'neill? Both guys come across as nice people during interviews, im not sure why Doug gets clobbered and Baffert gets a pass?

Does anyone here know?

[Dahoss2002]

I guess this is why Jack Van Berg cannot win a race anymore :) I miss the good ole days :D Crap, maybe if I dope, I can pick a winner :lol: Damn I need a winner :bang:

[illinoisbred]

I started following the game in the early 80's,near the end of the Van Berg midwest reign. I recall in the 1st edition of Davidowitz's Betting Thoroughbreds,Steve mentions..pay attention to where Jack actually "is"..his win % will be higher. Van Berg ran a stable at Arlington during the extended so called "tin roof" meeting before construction began on the current palace. Jack's stable was doing very little winning at the time and was never seen at AP until one day,with 3 entered and winning with the 1st, he appeared in the winner's circle. The following 2 entrants that day also won. Never saw him again after that day at AP.
The early,mid 80's was also graced by the constant presence of Bill Mott in the midwest.A consistent a 20-25% trainer,which at that time was considered about as good as it gets.

[rastajenk]

I think that average size of the fields was greater way back when, too, which should have an impact on win percentages of an individual; has to be easier to beat four opponents more often than beating eight or nine or more.

[chadk66]

This is a very interesting topic. I'm new to the board but am a former trainer. I trained against guys like Asmussen (in his first few years), Mott, Van Berg, etc. The use of illegal medication is a very deep conversation. I never went down that highway because I was an athlete growing up and these horses are athletes. I would have never done that to myself therefore I would never do that to a horse. I've claimed a couple horses that were obviously addicts and these horses were a mess. It was very sad. I also was never really into the claiming game. 75% of my horses were raised by my family and my clients. The other horses were bought privately in sales, etc. The last couple years I trained I won at about a 28% clip, in money was 50-53%. But it came from hard work and running horses where they belonged. I chucked when I was reading your posts regarding Jamie Ness. I have never met Jamie but my brother still owns running horses and is in the loop regarding Jamie. I don't know enough about him to have formed an opinion but I can tell you this from the conversations with my brother. Anytime you can claim horses and move them up immediately the number of times he does that there is something going on. Whatever it is I don't know but I can tell you that to move those horses up that much in that short of a time period requires something that acts on the horses system immediately. You be the judge of that. Most things that will move a horse up requires time and hard work. A classic example of this is a horse with bad feet. I actually looked to claim horses which I knew had bad feet because I just knew how to fix horses feet via feed, shoeing, and general foot care. But changing horses feet takes a few months. So basically what I'm saying is if your seeing the same trainings moving horses up immediately after a claim time and time again, somethings not right. Nobodies that lucky or good.

[Robert Goren]

Based on the original question, it has to either be him or possibly Asmussen.

Now if the question was, who moves a horse up the most, the answer would likely be Ness, with Guerrero in hot pursuit.The correct answer to who moves a horse up most is Rudy after a claim or trainer change. He does it in NY. When Ness and Guerrero brought their act to NY, they did not have the same success.

[lamboguy]

for years, people that have watched horses move up almost instantly always referred to ways to dull pain or help breathing. with all the drug test's these days its hard to get away with those types of drugs that mask those symptoms. today i believe that instead of dealing with pain and breathing, they are getting horses to focus better on what they are doing. i see it with human children that have attention deficit disorders that take various medications and you will see the change almost instantly in those kids. the book is still out if there is going to damage and other problems later on down the road with those kids. horses are no different than children, many of them suffer from ability to pay attention. many horses lack confidence when they look another horse in the eye. they are chicken. when you look at high percentage trainer's horses these days, you just don't see horse's that give up that easy down the lane.

the substances that i know of that deal with this in horses is very expensive, and i have not heard anything illegal about them either. even if it was illegal, the substances do not slab. in short what you are dealing with in the racing these days are the haves and the have not. it can cost as much as $2000 per month to add these substances into a horses body. those that buy large quantities of this substance will get substantial discounts to purchase it.

it would make sense that larger barns with 60 or more horses in their stalls can afford to give this stuff to their horses, while barns that only have 6 are up against it.

this leaves 2 different option's. either you only have large outfits training and running horses on race tracks, or limiting the amount of horses for any particular owner or trainer in order to level out the playing field.

keep in mind these substances have not been around that long, and one does not know what type of damage it does to horse. what i do know is that once these horses have been administered this substance, you can never take them off it, they will never run as good. so far the more you give the horse this stuff the better they feel.

[bob60566]

I guess this is why Jack Van Berg cannot win a race anymore :) I miss the good ole days :D Crap, maybe if I dope, I can pick a winner :lol: Damn I need a winner :bang:
Wait till Fairplex with this trainer :)

[chadk66]

from a trainers standpoint the only way you could afford to pay 2k a month for something like that is if the horse was running for very high purses because you aren't going pass that on to the owner. if you had 60 head that's a huge bill. I doubt you'd see someone running all 60 head on it all the time. and quite frankly I think alot of the horses wouldn't hold up to running those types of speeds for very long. back in the 80's blood packing was a huge deal. but the side effects after a few months was horrible and often times non-reversable.

[Stillriledup]

from a trainers standpoint the only way you could afford to pay 2k a month for something like that is if the horse was running for very high purses because you aren't going pass that on to the owner. if you had 60 head that's a huge bill. I doubt you'd see someone running all 60 head on it all the time. and quite frankly I think alot of the horses wouldn't hold up to running those types of speeds for very long. back in the 80's blood packing was a huge deal. but the side effects after a few months was horrible and often times non-reversable.

Blood packing? Is that the same as taking the blood out, cleaning it, and then putting the horse's own blood back into his body?

Btw, welcome aboard, hope you can stick around!

[Track Phantom]

I started following racing religously around 1986. In my opinion, racing back then was dramatically different, as it was in all sports. It wasn't until around 1998-99 (same time as the boom in baseball) that real performance enhancing activity came to light. Before that, something may have been going on, but it wasn't nearly as obvious to the player, nor had a dramatic effect on handicapping.

The difference in guys like Ness vs. guys like Baffert is the quality of their stock. Both are likely doing the same thing but people have a bit more acceptance of a horse who runs huge with good breeding and high cost. It is harder to stomach a guy claiming a 15k claimer and winning 7 straight, moving up the ladder and improving speed figures dramatically and this improvement happening within days of taking over the horse.

I remember a horse being claimed at my home track of CBY in around 1987. He was claimed for 10k and won 5 or 6 in a row and was entered in a stakes race. There was an article written about this horse and the great training being done, etc. Today, that happens with such regularity that it is hardly a story.

[Dahoss2002]

Speak of the Devil! "Assmussen" just passed Jack Van Berg on the all-time winner list in the 4th race at the Fairgrounds.

[chadk66]

I started following racing religously around 1986. In my opinion, racing back then was dramatically different, as it was in all sports. It wasn't until around 1998-99 (same time as the boom in baseball) that real performance enhancing activity came to light. Before that, something may have been going on, but it wasn't nearly as obvious to the player, nor had a dramatic effect on handicapping.

The difference in guys like Ness vs. guys like Baffert is the quality of their stock. Both are likely doing the same thing but people have a bit more acceptance of a horse who runs huge with good breeding and high cost. It is harder to stomach a guy claiming a 15k claimer and winning 7 straight, moving up the ladder and improving speed figures dramatically and this improvement happening within days of taking over the horse.

I remember a horse being claimed at my home track of CBY in around 1987. He was claimed for 10k and won 5 or 6 in a row and was entered in a stakes race. There was an article written about this horse and the great training being done, etc. Today, that happens with such regularity that it is hardly a story.I was training at CBY at that time. What horse was that?

[nijinski]

from a trainers standpoint the only way you could afford to pay 2k a month for something like that is if the horse was running for very high purses because you aren't going pass that on to the owner. if you had 60 head that's a huge bill. I doubt you'd see someone running all 60 head on it all the time. and quite frankly I think alot of the horses wouldn't hold up to running those types of speeds for very long. back in the 80's blood packing was a huge deal. but the side effects after a few months was horrible and often times non-reversable.

Blood packing a huge deal ? Or are you talking about blood doping ?

Only a medically trained individual with the proper medium along with heparin could remove and reload the blood free of clots . Where was this going on?

[chadk66]

Blood packing a huge deal ? Or are you talking about blood doping ?

Only a medically trained individual with the proper medium along with heparin could remove and reload the blood free of clots . Where was this going on?they were seperating the red blood cells, storing them and then re-injecting them the day before the race. or something to that effect. It was going on in the mid to late 80's. All over I guess. I left the business in 91 so I don't know what happened with it. I do know there were some very adverse effects from it. One of my owners claimed one out of oaklawn that never recovered from it.

[nijinski]

they were seperating the red blood cells, storing them and then re-injecting them the day before the race. or something to that effect. It was going on in the mid to late 80's. All over I guess. I left the business in 91 so I don't know what happened with it. I do know there were some very adverse effects from it. One of my owners claimed one out of oaklawn that never recovered from it.
In that case they could have easily been caught and should have been Not just with the needles and tubes but with the centrifuge the freezer and all . So I still say if this was done . A Vet or other medically trained folks were involved .

[chadk66]

In that case they could have easily been caught and should have been Not just with the needles and tubes but with the centrifuge the freezer and all . So I still say if this was done . A Vet or other medically trained folks were involved .yes vets were involved no doubt.

[Quesmark]

He might be the greatest trainer who's ever come along in our lifetimes, all i know is that when he's in a race, i pass. I prefer to bet on horse racing and not really worry too much about the humans. When the humans become too much of a factor, i just skip it and wait for the next one.
"The humans" are the ones who constructed this game we follow,horses aren't consulted as to their opinions,they're maneuvered into positions all the time,it'd be wise to wonder why...

[Stillriledup]

"The humans" are the ones who constructed this game we follow,horses aren't consulted as to their opinions,they're maneuvered into positions all the time,it'd be wise to wonder why...

When a trainer is approximately a 15% winning trainer, that sort of means he's not cheating and he's probably winning when he's best, he's probably finishing 2nd when he's 2nd best and so on and so forth. A trainer who's winning 35 to 40 percent is a trainer who's not only winning when he's best, but he's winning when he's NOT the best...that's what i mean by humans getting in the way.

I'd prefer all trainers to be 10 to 15 percent winners, that way i can just worry about the horses and what i see on video.

I get your point that many horses, many more than just supertrainers horses are being postioned all the time to win, but to me, if a horse is running on oats and hay from a 15% barn, i can 'follow' that horse's "career path" and pick out when he's peaking and when he's not.

[Track Phantom]

I was training at CBY at that time. What horse was that?

I don't recall the exact name. It may have been Allatime or Success Express. I can't really remember. I would lean toward Allatime.

[cj]

Nobody caught this one?

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/ness-gets-tco2-overage-at-tampa-its-taking-the-fun-out-of-it/

[PaceAdvantage]

I'd prefer all trainers to be 10 to 15 percent winners, that way i can just worry about the horses and what i see on video.You make no sense...you are basically saying all trainers are the same, and no trainer can be far superior to another except with the use of illegal or covert substances that have yet not been deemed illegal.

[castaway01]

Some people have such great speed figures that they don't need to consider the trainer most of the time. However, for most of us, you have to take the trainer into account as part of the handicapping equation, just like the track, surface, distance, track bias, and various other factors. If every single legal and illegal drug was tested for and banned tomorrow, this would still be the case. After all, the horses aren't training themselves, pointing themselves towards certain races, or curing their own ailments when they get sick. It's part of the sport and does not ruin it, just adds another layer of intrigue. Asking for all trainers to be similarly mediocre would be boring.

[cj]

Some people have such great speed figures that they don't need to consider the trainer most of the time. However, for most of us, you have to take the trainer into account as part of the handicapping equation, just like the track, surface, distance, track bias, and various other factors. If every single legal and illegal drug was tested for and banned tomorrow, this would still be the case. After all, the horses aren't training themselves, pointing themselves towards certain races, or curing their own ailments when they get sick. It's part of the sport and does not ruin it, just adds another layer of intrigue. Asking for all trainers to be similarly mediocre would be boring.

Nobody has speed figures good enough to ignore connections.

[castaway01]

Nobody has speed figures good enough to ignore connections.

I'll be honest---that was in deference to you, because I figured if I posted that you always had to watch the connections, 10 other people would say they use CJ figures and don't care who trains or rides the horse.

[cj]

I'll be honest---that was in deference to you, because I figured if I posted that you always had to watch the connections, 10 other people would say they use CJ figures and don't care who trains or rides the horse.

Honestly, I usually don't pay much attention, until there is a change. Trainer changes often make the figures meaningless, or certainly a lot less valuable. Jockey changes are less important, but can still be a factor.

[Stillriledup]

You make no sense...you are basically saying all trainers are the same, and no trainer can be far superior to another except with the use of illegal or covert substances that have yet not been deemed illegal.

I'm sure there are some trainers who are incompetent, but the vast majority of horse trainers are living in 2013 and that means them and their vets have access to the most modern amenities. The biggest difference between Joe Blow and Joe Supertrainer is the amount of legal vet work that one trainer might do, the 'vet bills' for certain guys are thru the roof...those people will have an edge over the guy trying to save money, but for the most part, its about the horse.

[plainolebill]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Maker, he seems to move them up pretty good. As far as O'neill goes, I bet against him with impunity - I haven't seen many dramatic form reversals from his barn recently. He's been caught red handed so maybe he's backed off some, seems like Mullins has too.

Miller, Sadler and Mitchell are the ones I am wary of in Socal.

[Stillriledup]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Maker, he seems to move them up pretty good. As far as O'neill goes, I bet against him with impunity - I haven't seen many dramatic form reversals from his barn recently. He's been caught red handed so maybe he's backed off some, seems like Mullins has too.

Miller, Sadler and Mitchell are the ones I am wary of in Socal.

In the defense of So Cal, you don't really have to worry about 'supertrainers' too much, other than Baffert. And, that's not necessarily because Bob does 'supertrainer' move ups, he's just got 3 in every race, so its tricky to handicap, especially the 2 and 3 year old races, he's all over the place, uncoupled.

But, for the most part, So Cal doesnt have someone like Ness, Jacobson, Aamos, RRR and guys like that, its more about the horse in So Cal, you arent betting 'trainer racing' out there, those guys O'Neill, Mullins, Sadler, Baffert and MIller are all interchangable, if they have the right horse, they'll win.

[MightBeSosa]

Nobody has speed figures good enough to ignore connections.

Sure they do, just be glad they only take 90% of the pool home, and leave us the remaining 10%.

http://www.racepedia.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Andrew-Beyer.jpg
"My figures are so good, I deduct all horseplayers as dependents on my 1040"

[chadk66]

You make no sense...you are basically saying all trainers are the same, and no trainer can be far superior to another except with the use of illegal or covert substances that have yet not been deemed illegal.trust me, it doesn't take much of a trainer to win at a ten to twelve percent rate.

[Stillriledup]

Robber

Tino

Dio

Doro.

[plainolebill]

Robber

Tino

Dio

Doro.

You could toss any horse he ran in Socal for years but he's got it figured out now.

[EasyGoer89]

Some guy named JA Joseph at Gulf, just claimed One off Navarro and moved him up. And was bet like 'they' knew this wasn't a negative trainer change.

[Dahoss9698]

Some guy named JA Joseph at Gulf, just claimed One off Navarro and moved him up. And was bet like 'they' knew this wasn't a negative trainer change.

His name is Saffie Joseph and he's a very good trainer. Hard to believe someone who follows Florida racing would not know that name. :confused:

Curious as to how you claim he "moved him up". What are you basing that on? Did you see that field?

[Elliott Sidewater]

Jorge Navarro

[SG4]

Some guy named JA Joseph at Gulf, just claimed One off Navarro and moved him up. And was bet like 'they' knew this wasn't a negative trainer change.

I don't think he's moving horses up at all, just placing them where they belong & keeping them sharp as they were which is a nice enough feat by a trainer. He's training for Drawing Away & if you remember their M.O. from the Jacobson partnership it involved a lot of claiming & racing back in winning spots, seems to be repeating that.

Navarro barn not the move-up machine it was last year, curious meet by that barn overall I thought, rather ordinary in fact which in a way seems like a step in the right direction.

[EasyGoer89]

I don't think he's moving horses up at all, just placing them where they belong & keeping them sharp as they were which is a nice enough feat by a trainer. He's training for Drawing Away & if you remember their M.O. from the Jacobson partnership it involved a lot of claiming & racing back in winning spots, seems to be repeating that.

Navarro barn not the move-up machine it was last year, curious meet by that barn overall I thought, rather ordinary in fact which in a way seems like a step in the right direction.

Dreaming of neno seemed to move up over the 68 beyer that Navarro got him to run 3 back.

[EasyGoer89]

First time 'Joseph' claim from a .27 pct trainer is bet down like the previous trainer is 2 for 50.

Race 1 GP today