Using Betfair

[SmarterSig]

Hi

Just wondered if any of you use beards or betting buddies to bet into Betfair rather than battle with the horrendous take outs that you have to endure in your tote system ?

[lamboguy]

the takeout in BETFAIR is much higher than at the track. its nothing but a complete waste of time.

its the exact same thing as a guy coming on this board saying that they would like to book my bets. you bet the guy and he runs to the window. that's exactly what BETFAIR does.

if a guy wants to book my bets, i would either sit with the guy in a locked room without cell phones or any other method of communication, or sit at the track and bet the guy when the horses are in the gate and he can't make a move. i would clean the guy out within 2 weeks or less. most of the time it tends to be less!

[SmarterSig]

UK races on Betfair have an overround of about 1%, yours, unless I am mistaken have about 17% ?

[lamboguy]

they aren't doing nothing for 1%. if they were on the level they would have every horse player in the world living in England for the rest of their lives.

[Charli125]

Hi

Just wondered if any of you use beards or betting buddies to bet into Betfair rather than battle with the horrendous take outs that you have to endure in your tote system ?

I doubt there are many due to the nature of betting on betfair. You make your money by betting multiple positions at various odds at various mtp's in order to lock in a profit. Because of that fluidity, it would be hard to do without being personally involved. Also, it's illegal, so that will scare a lot of people away. I do know of some folks around international days like the Breeders Cup, that will bet Europe horses in our pools, and US horses on betfair, but that's not a long-term strategy.

I work for a UK company, and if I do ever get a chance to work over there, I'll move in a heartbeat so that I can bet through betfair.

Not sure what Lamboguy is talking about, you are correct, the takeout at betfair is much lower than in our pools. I guess he's talking about the surcharge on consistent winners, and I don't know what that works out to be exactly. The betfair players I know make money, and pay a much lower takeout than I do.

[flatstats]

they aren't doing nothing for 1%. if they were on the level they would have every horse player in the world living in England for the rest of their lives.

Just one point: England is not UK. UK includes Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales.

Yes the Betfair over-round is around 1% but you also have to pay anything upto 5% commission on net events, and big hitters also pay a premium charge, which is a percentage in double figures.

Betfair offers the choice of:


a) Taking the Betfair SP - This will be the same as the PMU

b) Taking the price as it is right now - You can't do that with PMU

c1) Requesting a price and hoping you get matched - You can't do that with PMU.

c2) Requesting a price and hoping you get matched. If not matched you get paid out on the Betfair SP - You can't do that with PMU.

So it's not just about the skim or rebates. But also about different ways of getting different prices.

[davew]

It would be difficult to put much money on any NorthAmerca race as there are a few betting/trading programs running, the liquidity is small and spread relatively large, and over-round near 120%.

The betting options are small (win or place(2,3,4 horses depending on race))

so even though the parimutual system has flaws, the people who have been doing it for awhile go for the vertical and horizointal bets that BetFair simply does not offer at this time.

ps, what is over-round?

[gm10]

the takeout in BETFAIR is much higher than at the track. its nothing but a complete waste of time.

its the exact same thing as a guy coming on this board saying that they would like to book my bets. you bet the guy and he runs to the window. that's exactly what BETFAIR does.

if a guy wants to book my bets, i would either sit with the guy in a locked room without cell phones or any other method of communication, or sit at the track and bet the guy when the horses are in the gate and he can't make a move. i would clean the guy out within 2 weeks or less. most of the time it tends to be less!

Betfair is a peer-to-peer betting exchange. One Betfair user lays a bet, another backs it. Nobody's running to the windows.

Take-out is much lower than the American equivalent, but the problem is that you have to pay a commission on your winnings. Ultimately, their commission rates make it easier to break-even but much harder to win big.

For the sake of illustration, I run an automated US strategy with another person. We have a gross ROI of about 15%, but only 5% of that remains after commission is paid. That's outrageous, you say. Perhaps, but if we only used the tote we would probably not make a profit with this strategy!

[EagleEye Po]

I have been playing Betfair for the past 5 years and it is awesome. It won't replace parimutuel wagering but is an excellent compliment. Especially if you not big on exotic wagering. I pay a 5% commission on winnings. If you are a long shot player it can offer some significant overlays, generally 2 to 3 times greater than on track parimutuel payoffs. It truly does give you a chance to win.
The fact you can wager on a horse to lose adds a great wrinkle to horse race wagering. If you can identify over bet horses there are great opportunities to make money.
The key is to have liquidity in the market. In races held in the UK there can be over a million dollars matched. US races rarely approach $100,000 matched.
I believe Americans would flock to it, if and when it becomes legal.

[tholl]

I believe Americans would flock to it, if and when it becomes legal.

I agree. I believe the option of using Exchange Wagering is possibly the one thing that could revive the lagging interest in betting on horse racing. I think it is the one thing that could create interest from the younger generation.

[DeltaLover]

I believe the option of using Exchange Wagering is possibly the one thing that could revive the lagging interest in betting on horse racing.


Although betting exchanges indeed can bring some innovation to the game, I still see it as secondary to the radical reformation that the industry is crying for and in my opinion is summarized perfectly here:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99847

Anything else, like introduction of BF, new types of exotic bets with close resemblance to lottery or decrease of the minimum bet to fractions of a dollar are just fake remedies and nothing more..

[bob60566]

mAlthough betting exchanges indeed can bring some innovation to the game, I still see it as secondary to the radical reformation that the industry is crying for and in my opinion is summarized perfectly here:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99847

Anything else, like introduction of BF, new types of exotic bets with close resemblance to lottery or decrease of the minimum bet to fractions of a dollar are just fake remedies and nothing more..

I am afraid crying is a thing of the past for this industry, The death by thousand cuts may be more lile it.
One glimmer of light is one state that seems to run all year with very good fields and product.

[MightBeSosa]

Whenever I've looked at BF I wish we had it here.

End of discussion.

[MightBeSosa]

nothing since......

I didn't really mean it. continue as you were.

[flatstats]

One other problem with Betfair is that you show your hand before your bet is accepted.

With PMU you can walk up to the counter and place $5,000 on Lucky Jim. The Tote board will adjust accordingly and you don't know what your pay off is until after the race has started ...

With traditional bookies you walk up to one of them, see the 3/1 price and say "I want $5,000 on Lucky Jim at 3/1". The bookie accepts the bet and may adjust his price down for future punters if he wishes.

With Betfair you are showing your stake before hand and this can affect your price.

If the price for lucky jim is currently 5/2 and you ask for $5,000 3/1 you can be sure that those 5/2 layers are going to drop back purely because you flashed your $5K wedge.

Layers know what you want before hand and they will run and hide accordingly.

Of course you can drip feed $50 or $500 wedges at a time but on a cold Tuesday at Southwell it's going to be a chinese torture drip.

[lamboguy]

One other problem with Betfair is that you show your hand before your bet is accepted.

With PMU you can walk up to the counter and place $5,000 on Lucky Jim. The Tote board will adjust accordingly and you don't know what your pay off is until after the race has started ...

With traditional bookies you walk up to one of them, see the 3/1 price and say "I want $5,000 on Lucky Jim at 3/1". The bookie accepts the bet and may adjust his price down for future punters if he wishes.

With Betfair you are showing your stake before hand and this can affect your price.

If the price for lucky jim is currently 5/2 and you ask for $5,000 3/1 you can be sure that those 5/2 layers are going to drop back purely because you flashed your $5K wedge.

Layers know what you want before hand and they will run and hide accordingly.

Of course you can drip feed $50 or $500 wedges at a time but on a cold Tuesday at Southwell it's going to be a chinese torture drip.
they go one step worse than this, they add money to your lousy wager and send it directly to the betting windows and lower your pari mutual price. i see no good reason to have exchange wagering on the shores of N.America. if anyone wants it so bad, go move to the countries that allow you to bet with them.

[davew]

who is they? do you really feel much arbitrage is going on?

I do wonder if Betfair themselves is making market laying/placing bets for their own book

[MightBeSosa]

If that's your biggest complaint about Betfair, having to finesse the wager, bring it on!

[lamboguy]

"they" are the people that run the BETFAIR, "they" are nothing but bookmakers.

all the bookmakers that i have ever met in my life drive cadilacs and go to Florida in the winter time.

[MightBeSosa]

they go one step worse than this, they add money to your lousy wager and send it directly to the betting windows and lower your pari mutual price. i see no good reason to have exchange wagering on the shores of N.America. if anyone wants it so bad, go move to the countries that allow you to bet with them.

I feel your pain. After you bet $1000 at a locked in price, you can't bet the real money on track at a good price. Crooks.

[bob60566]

"they" are the people that run the BETFAIR, "they" are nothing but bookmakers.

all the bookmakers that i have ever met in my life drive cadilacs and go to Florida in the winter time.

What track :confused:

[Immanuel Kant]

not quite sure I'm understanding the thread here....

in Race 6 at the Big A..(I know, I know..$259 and change) I dutched two horses...

Final Track odds...7/2 and 19/1
My odds at Betfair.....6/1 and 25/1

In what way am I not being advantaged?

[davew]

How big a bet could you make?

They only let those bets go through because they knew Broadway Hat and Sunnyinseabrook didn't have much chance.... (just kidding)


Too bad you didn't have Take The El Train at 205/1


Many times when there are offers and you try to hit them, it retracts when you make your bid..

[Twenty Seven]

How big a bet could you make?


Many times when there are offers and you try to hit them, it retracts when you make your bid..

Depending on the meet, time of day, particular attractiveness of the card, alignment with other cards, etc.., the single race pools (or markets, as they're called) will end up trading anywhere between 10k and 125k a race. The retractions you talk about are infrequent, and sometimes a rare misstep by someone offering up an inefficient price (that they quickly take down). In very rare cases, it's a trick to spook people to follow a certain line of laying (betting to lose) on a certain horse, or to subtly promote another horse in order to (try to) get better odds on a horse they eventually prefer in a minute or ten.

Bottom line: Betfair's takeout tops out at 5%. In N. America's totes, it's of course 16% - 25%. Cal it 20% average. That difference of 15% means that if you churn $300, 000 through the windows per year, and many more bet much more than that, the result is you keep about $45, 000 more in your pocket per year, whether that's straight profit, breaking even rather than losing the $45, 000 , losing 45k rather than 90k, or any combo of the above.

The "cruel math" of high takeout (to use Andy Beyer's phrase), more than any other factor, has been killing this great game more than any other for a long time. After a quarter century of recreational and semi-pro play, I finally quit the game in the early-nineties, only to get juiced for it again through the advent of simulcasting, before going full time in 2003 with Betfair.

Unfortunately, Betfair's philosophy has changed dramatically, and the dreaded premium charge has kicked in for the past few years for me. Winners aren't welcome there any more, though I'm still light years ahead of the game playing straight wagers at much better odds there while swinging for home runs on the simulcast horizontals through the stateside totes.

[MightBeSosa]

I don't use BF as I'm in the usa, and don't feel like jumping through hoops to enable an account.

How anyone can look at the prices offered on BF and not see the opportunity is beyond me.

Yes, if they are surcharging winners, thats bad, but as you say, you're still ahead of the thievery that is the takeout here.

[davew]

I don't use BF as I'm in the usa, and don't feel like jumping through hoops to enable an account.

How anyone can look at the prices offered on BF and not see the opportunity is beyond me.

Yes, if they are surcharging winners, thats bad, but as you say, you're still ahead of the thievery that is the takeout here.

If you only bet the win pool and usually bet away from the first couple favorites, you are probably correct. Right now getting your bet filled if significant in size, may be a problem.

[raybo]

Although I have not seriously looked at exchanges, the simple fact that you can bet against a horse seems to make exchange wagering attractive, even if you have to accept very low prices, if you are pretty good at finding vulnerable horses. IMO, it's much easier to find a vulnerable favorite, or other low priced horse, than it is to find the winner.

[BIG49010]

Unfortunately, Betfair's philosophy has changed dramatically, and the dreaded premium charge has kicked in for the past few years for me. Winners aren't welcome there any more, though I'm still light years ahead of the game playing straight wagers at much better odds there while swinging for home runs on the simulcast horizontals through the stateside totes.

What is the dreaded premium charge, can you explain it?

[bob60566]

Although I have not seriously looked at exchanges, the simple fact that you can bet against a horse seems to make exchange wagering attractive, even if you have to accept very low prices, if you are pretty good at finding vulnerable horses. IMO, it's much easier to find a vulnerable favorite, or other low priced horse, than it is to find the winner.

One good point i read last week in UK report of inside betting and was investagated by the exchanges and charges laid on the group and jock who was on the losing horses.
Never hear to many charges laid over here on losing horses and betting coups maybe it does not happen in North America.
Betting exchanges may clean up the sport.

[flatstats]

What is the dreaded premium charge, can you explain it?

This applies to high rollers, who win often. Betfair say that only 0.5% of their customers will be hit by premium charge but this figure is debatable.

It is based on a complicated formula, which regular Joe Punter would not understand. You can read more at section 7 here:

http://www.betfair.com/aboutUs/Betfair.Charges/

[flatstats]

One good point i read last week in UK report of inside betting and was investagated by the exchanges and charges laid on the group and jock who was on the losing horses.
Never hear to many charges laid over here on losing horses and betting coups maybe it does not happen in North America.
Betting exchanges may clean up the sport.

I believe this has exacerbated an existing problem.

Only the Well Connected Got On
Cheating in racing has gone on for years. But in the old days bent connections had to know bookies for their bets to processed. This meant having a special phone account with a bookie, or visiting one with a brown envelope stuffed with cash.

For that very reason only the well connected could be involved in a scam.

Now with online betting it can happen so easily. And of course the opportunity to lay a nobbled horse can happen so easily.

If you were connected to a horse that you know would not win how could you profit from it in the old days? You could not go to a bookies and back every other runner in the race as that would be impracticable.

But with betting exchanges you can lay your one horse to lose and profit instantly. This kind of cheating is now available for trainers, jockeys, owners, girlfriends / husbands of owners. Stable staff, racing secretary, accountants of owners, even the stable cat.

All of those people can now lay a horse that they know for sure will not win. Prior to exchanges it was not possible to do on that kind of scale.

There have been dozens of connections warned off over the years. But year after year more appear. Exchanges say they have paper trails, and complex programs that can identify cheats. On some occasions suspicious betting patterns prior to a race had prevented a horse from running. All that is good. But it still does not stop the laying cheats from operating because they are still there.

Other Forms of Cheating
Some punters set up trap bets. These are impossible bets that rob unwitting punters of money. The only answer to this is 'Buyer Beware'.

Whilst not technically cheating there are courtside players, able to exploit delays in TV pictures. They hoover up by knowing the results 5, 10, 30 seconds before Joe Punter at home in TV land.

Overall Positive
Despite this negativity betting exchanges are a revolution for punters. There is now more choice and better value to be had. Exchanges are the future.

[MightBeSosa]

I could have told you that the first people to benefit from Betfair would be insiders, oh, 3 and a half seconds after I heard of it. Old news the day it was launched. yawn.


And if you think they haven't been 'laying' favorites here for 40 years ever since the exacta/tri was invented, you're not paying attn.

[bob60566]

I could have told you that the first people to benefit from Betfair would be insiders, oh, 3 and a half seconds after I heard of it. Old news the day it was launched. yawn.


And if you think they haven't been 'laying' favorites here for 40 years ever since the exacta/tri was invented, you're not paying attn.

And nobody has reported these insiders is this is not illegal :confused:

[Twenty Seven]

What is the dreaded premium charge, can you explain it?

NO one can explain it, not even Betfair's customer reps.:D

Bizarre that they use an impossibly complicated system to calculate whether or not you pay it that week. Bettors are angry enough at it as is without the possible surprise debit every, or most, Wednesdays.

And they lie about the only 0.5 % that it supposedly affects. Many more than that are hit with it. They've also introduced a super-premium charge so that if you're more than excellent, you can cough up even more.

Alas, there's no competition whatsoever for the liquidity they generate, so I'm still there.

[Fox]

NO one can explain it, not even Betfair's customer reps.:D

Bizarre that they use an impossibly complicated system to calculate whether or not you pay it that week. Bettors are angry enough at it as is without the possible surprise debit every, or most, Wednesdays.

And they lie about the only 0.5 % that it supposedly affects. Many more than that are hit with it. They've also introduced a super-premium charge so that if you're more than excellent, you can cough up even more.

Alas, there's no competition whatsoever for the liquidity they generate, so I'm still there.

Hopefully the Ladbrokes takeover of Betdaq will put some competitive pressure on Betfair. I did hear some scuttlebutt that they have been eliciting the opinions of some PC payers on how they can make it more fair. The 20% PC was tough to swallow, but I understood their motivation and accepted their position. The 40% to 60% PC is downright punitive and over the top.

[Seabiscuit@AR]

One of Betfair's problems is that they do not use their audit trails anywhere near enough. If someone lays a horse which they know cannot win then that bet will have a terrible negative ROI for the player taking the other side of that bet. Likewise the backers of a horse which is doped up (the layers of such a horse are taking a massive negative ROI bet)

Betting against other players is a form of contest and in any contest you need some rules to provide a level playing field of sorts

As far as the premium charge goes their should be no premium charge for those using the form (this type of player is unlikely to attract premium charge on the horses anyways). But insider traders and fast picture merchants should be paying 100% premium charge (ie not allowed to play) again for the reasons that the advantages they hold are simply too great and are unfair

The killer for Betfair's customers though is the fact they floated on a stock exchange. The original idea behind Betfair seemed to be to offer a low cost betting exchange which benefitted the customer and cut out the take of the middleman. By floating on the stock exchange you create a whole new class of freeloader who has to be fed (ie the Betfair shareholders). Now instead of the betting money being kept as much as possible between the players a portion of it has to be siphoned off to the shareholders who do nothing to earn this money but buy shares. A low cost betting exchange and shareholders do not mix

[bob60566]

One of Betfair's problems is that they do not use their audit trails anywhere near enough. If someone lays a horse which they know cannot win then that bet will have a terrible negative ROI for the player taking the other side of that bet. Likewise the backers of a horse which is doped up (the layers of such a horse are taking a massive negative ROI bet)

Betting against other players is a form of contest and in any contest you need some rules to provide a level playing field of sorts

As far as the premium charge goes their should be no premium charge for those using the form (this type of player is unlikely to attract premium charge on the horses anyways). But insider traders and fast picture merchants should be paying 100% premium charge (ie not allowed to play) again for the reasons that the advantages they hold are simply too great and are unfair

The killer for Betfair's customers though is the fact they floated on a stock exchange. The original idea behind Betfair seemed to be to offer a low cost betting exchange which benefitted the customer and cut out the take of the middleman. By floating on the stock exchange you create a whole new class of freeloader who has to be fed (ie the Betfair shareholders). Now instead of the betting money being kept as much as possible between the players a portion of it has to be siphoned off to the shareholders who do nothing to earn this money but buy shares. A low cost betting exchange and shareholders do not mix

Excellent post

[Fox]

As far as the premium charge goes their should be no premium charge for those using the form (this type of player is unlikely to attract premium charge on the horses anyways). But insider traders and fast picture merchants should be paying 100% premium charge (ie not allowed to play) again for the reasons that the advantages they hold are simply too great and are unfair

What is a fast picture merchant? Thx.

[MightBeSosa]

This is the fact. When you bet with the machines you are up against the exact same bias that seabiscut mentions + the ripoff hold.

? is this news?

[flatstats]

Fast picture merchants are those who are able to watch an event closer to realtime than anyone else.

These will be punters at the track / football stadium / tennis court watching the action live and placing bets on the results instantly, whilst those at home watching on national TV or the internet will be watching delayed feeds 3, 5, 10, 30 seconds behind the FPMs.

At some racecourses dedicated rooms are laid on for punters to setup their own laptops. They have a view overlooking the course and bet instantly an outcome is observed.

On course bookmakers have admitted to using the exchanges to their advantage. They lay horses that have fallen (national hunt races) or spot fast closing finishers before those at home.

It was rumoured that the technical team behind providing racecourse pictures were taking advantage of knowing the results before home viewers. Those in the satellite van would be watching the live course pictures in near instant time. The signal they transmit would take many seconds to bounce out to a satellite, back down to TV HQ, across to the satellite network providers, back up to the satellite, back down to home viewers, all adding their own delay.

I still say though that despite all this negativity and opportunity to profit from an advantage point the exchanges are still positive for regular Joe Punters.

[flatstats]

Oh and cheats are not just taking advantage of sports.

Three Virgin Media (cable network) employees were caught betting on the outcome of X-Factor after analysing the phone voting records. They knew the result minutes before anyone and proceded to back / lay on the exchanges.

[Red Knave]

By floating on the stock exchange you create a whole new class of freeloader who has to be fed (ie the Betfair shareholders). Now instead of the betting money being kept as much as possible between the players a portion of it has to be siphoned off to the shareholders who do nothing to earn this money but buy shares. A low cost betting exchange and shareholders do not mixExcellent post
This part of the post is the opposite of excellent.
Shareholders provide capital to an organization in return for an equity stake, they're hardly freeloaders. The capital they provide is used by management for expansion or capital improvements that are necessary for new product development, moving into new territories etc. It doesn't just get dumped into the bank or the pockets of the original owners. It doesn't disappear. Being a public corporation shines more light on the goings on inside the company that would never be seen if it stayed private.
In my opinion, a company like this should be public, not private.

[MightBeSosa]

not to mention that early bf shareholders have lost their shirts

[SmarterSig]

Ask any punter whether they preferred Betfair before or after the float and see what reply you get. In the UK we have a slightly different problem to you in the USA. Over here if you show signs of winning you will be banned by the bookmakers, and I do mean banned not restricted. The exchanges therefore are the only possible outlet for thinking punters.

[MightBeSosa]

I know nothing of the bookmaking culture in England, but I don't doubt what you say. Must be a lot of 'beards' running around.

bf, when new, was looking to generate business. Not surprising that they would want to keep more of the vig over time.

Would still love to have them here. Even at a net 10% takeout. Locking in the betting odds is huge for someone with a clue.

[flatstats]

Until the whole island(s) is desolved it is Britain at the very least. Or the UK.

Betfair did lose it's way when investors got involved. The nerds got taken over by the suits and the direction was profit driven, rather than customer driven.

But it is still the best platform for regular Joes. If you just backed random horses you would be so much better off on Betfair than with bookies.

On our All Weather courses backing the favourite at bookie SP returned a loss of 8.3%. The same fav at Betfair SP returned a loss of 3.1%

Backing all Frankie Dettori rides at bookie SP returned a profit of 2.5%. At Betfair SP a profit of 9.4%.

Figures from AW racing from May 2008 to February 2013. Figures include commission at 5% for Betfair SP bets.

[MightBeSosa]

lol, sorry, the UK it is.

[Dony55]

they aren't doing nothing for 1%. if they were on the level they would have every horse player in the world living in England for the rest of their lives.

My man you are a big retard. Im sorry but you are the reason people stay stupid and ignorant. The takeouts on Betfair are not close to the take outs at the tracks. The odds are also often much higher on Betfair. I am not an advocate of Betfair because betting on horses is not a profitable game but if your going to do it, you have to be crazy to not do it through a site like Betfair unless you have a hate for english people and rather get drained at the track to pursue that hate.

[Dony55]

It would be difficult to put much money on any NorthAmerca race as there are a few betting/trading programs running, the liquidity is small and spread relatively large, and over-round near 120%.

The betting options are small (win or place(2,3,4 horses depending on race))

so even though the parimutual system has flaws, the people who have been doing it for awhile go for the vertical and horizointal bets that BetFair simply does not offer at this time.

ps, what is over-round?

And these people betting at track on exotics and what have you will continue to lose there money. If the trac is taking around 20% on exotic bets. How can you possibly win if you are a long time bettor. You cannot and these days im sure that 99% do not win in a year. And the ones that do are probably ones that went once and in the year they had a profit. With that takeout you will simply get drained as every dollar they are constantly taking 20 cents from that. ITs just not possible.

[Dony55]

they go one step worse than this, they add money to your lousy wager and send it directly to the betting windows and lower your pari mutual price. i see no good reason to have exchange wagering on the shores of N.America. if anyone wants it so bad, go move to the countries that allow you to bet with them.

You are obviously a worker of a track or something of this nature or a horse owener. You are the reasons tracks will go brock as will the bettors. No validity to your points at all, starting with BF has higher take outs than Tracks.

[davew]

It will definitely make 'fixing races' easier than darkening current form of top horses.

There has been a recent global scam with soccor fixing - bookmakers probably lay some off on Betfair/Betdaq/whatever exchange wagering
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/04/us-football-matchfixing-idUSBRE9130H820130204

[Charli125]

It will definitely make 'fixing races' easier than darkening current form of top horses.

There has been a recent global scam with soccor fixing - bookmakers probably lay some off on Betfair/Betdaq/whatever exchange wagering
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/04/us-football-matchfixing-idUSBRE9130H820130204

I disagree. It makes catching those fixing races easier. In the tennis scandal, many football scandals, and horse racing scandals, Betfair was the one that notified the authorities, and gave audit trails to catch those responsible.

[baconswitchfarm]

Anyone that thinks Betfair will make for less cheating has never been in the horse business. When you can bet against a horse , it will be like the wild west on the backsides.

[Charli125]

Anyone that thinks Betfair will make for less cheating has never been in the horse business. When you can bet against a horse , it will be like the wild west on the backsides.

Tell that to the rest of the world. The cheating goes on with the bookies. Punters know that if they fix a race on Betfair, the authorities will be notified of the suspicious betting patterns. Which by the way, is something that doesn't happen often in the current pari-mutuel pools.

[baconswitchfarm]

They are just finding out about world cup soccer matches fixed five years ago. Just think how long a 5 claiming maiden race that is fixed will take to catch. People who fixed those matches have been drawing interest on that betfair winnings for five years.

[Fox]

They are just finding out about world cup soccer matches fixed five years ago. Just think how long a 5 claiming maiden race that is fixed will take to catch. People who fixed those matches have been drawing interest on that betfair winnings for five years.

As if there there was no cheating going on now. The only difference with exchange betting will be there will be an electronic audit trail unlike the parimutuel system where you can bet and cash tickets anonymously.

[SmarterSig]

I am amazed at how many of you guys seem to want to defend your PM system when if you had betfair over there you would be betting into a pool which has a takeout of about 2 to 3% after your commission. Even for casual players whose commission rate would be higher the take out is a lot less than your PM. On top of this you could take a price when it appears or ask for a price instead of waiting around until seconds to the off and second guessing the PM return. To me its a no brainer.

[edmond1]

I am amazed at how many of you guys seem to want to defend your PM system when if you had betfair over there you would be betting into a pool which has a takeout of about 2 to 3% after your commission. Even for casual players whose commission rate would be higher the take out is a lot less than your PM. On top of this you could take a price when it appears or ask for a price instead of waiting around until seconds to the off and second guessing the PM return. To me its a no brainer.

Absolutely right but expected commission on Betfair will be closer to 10% if implemented in U.S. - NO THANKS !!!!!

[MightBeSosa]

10% but with FIXED ODDS.

No wonder we've been tortured all these years by a criminally high takeout. Horseplayers are dumber than spit.

[raybo]

Absolutely right but expected commission on Betfair will be closer to 10% if implemented in U.S. - NO THANKS !!!!!

So 10% commission plus the 2-3% takeout is 12-13%, versus 17% and up, in our present paramutuel system? Sounds like Betfair is the better deal.

[bob60566]

10% but with FIXED ODDS.

No wonder we've been tortured all these years by a criminally high takeout. Horseplayers are dumber than spit.
Bring it on :ThmbUp:

[cutchemist42]

I have a Betfair account. I love the system, but really wish more NA tracks were offered.

[Track Collector]

I have a Betfair account. I love the system, but really wish more NA tracks were offered.

Where is there a list of what tracks are offered?

Also, another question from a novice when it comes to betfair. How are folks recognized on betfair? Specifically, can you tell who is offering a wager BEFORE you accept it? If so, could one not develop a feel on who the sharpies are, and avoid wager props with them, or are there simply a huge number of different players and you are not likely to encounter the same match person more than one or two times? Am I also correct to also say that one's personnal wagering history is essentially private, except for system administrators?

[cutchemist42]

Where is there a list of what tracks are offered?

Also, another question from a novice when it comes to betfair. How are folks recognized on betfair? Specifically, can you tell who is offering a wager BEFORE you accept it? If so, could one not develop a feel on who the sharpies are, and avoid wager props with them, or are there simply a huge number of different players and you are not likely to encounter the same match person more than one or two times? Am I also correct to also say that one's personnal wagering history is essentially private, except for system administrators?

I never know who is offering, whether its actual name or a username. I've also been on it a year and never come across a way to look up people and their records.

I don't know of a list, but I'm pretty sure you can check out the races without even logging in but rather as a guest. Expect only bigger tracks from what I've seen. I was upset because I truly love the odds you get, and wish I could take advantage of something similar at the tracks I mainly follow.

http://www.betfair.com/exchange/horse-racing

Look on the left side.

[Some_One]

No CDSN - They threaten to pull their signals from TVG
Limited Magna, usually only GP, no Betfair SP - They don't seem to have their races broadcast on UK tv which is important
No California - BF claims its about profit, I think it's sucking up to the regulatory people to get into the market

Other than that, most half decent tracks are on there

[Native Texan III]

Where is there a list of what tracks are offered?

Also, another question from a novice when it comes to betfair. How are folks recognized on betfair? Specifically, can you tell who is offering a wager BEFORE you accept it? If so, could one not develop a feel on who the sharpies are, and avoid wager props with them, or are there simply a huge number of different players and you are not likely to encounter the same match person more than one or two times? Am I also correct to also say that one's personnal wagering history is essentially private, except for system administrators?

You are not betting against a single person but a sum collection of money offers at a price.
There are no lists of people in the market.
You need to know what price is value to you and how much you can get on at that price. It is irrelevant who "sharpies" might be.
Your betting history is private but can be misused by Betfair employees for other market intelligence.