Belichek and Brady

[Valuist]

I'm not saying they are "finished", but I don't think either will ever win a Super Bowl again. They seem to have lost the hunger that's needed to be at a championship level. Its now been 8 years since they won a Super Bowl, and they have chronically disappointed since. Heavy favorites five years ago and they lost outright to the Giants. Favored last year, and again the same result. They were extremely fortunate to even get to the Super Bowl last year. 2-10 ATS now in their last 12 post-season games.

They'll still get their 11 wins or so next year but no ring. I look for both to retire after the 2015 season.

[Valuist]

Forgot to mention about Gronkowski but other than Brady, he is the straw that stirs the drink. Welker, Hernandez, Lloyd, Ridley are all nice players, no doubt. But the Patriots are just a different team when Gronkowski is healthy.

[cj]

They have not won one since Spygate, either.

[MutuelClerk]

Exactly CJ. They cheated for their last two. The tuck rule gave them their first Super bowl. And the year Tommy Boy was hurt in the first game of the season the Pats still mangaed to win 11 games. IMO Brady is pretty overrated. Right place. Right time. He rode coatails of great coach and defense early in his career.

[Show Me the Wire]

They have not won one since Spygate, either.

My sentiments too.

[Valuist]

Exactly CJ. They cheated for their last two. The tuck rule gave them their first Super bowl. And the year Tommy Boy was hurt in the first game of the season the Pats still mangaed to win 11 games. IMO Brady is pretty overrated. Right place. Right time. He rode coatails of great coach and defense early in his career.

While I'm not Brady's biggest fan, I think its wrong to call him overrated. How much better does he make the other players around him? And how good a coach was Belichek when he was in Cleveland? Belichek may be a great coach but Brady has a lot to do with that.

[NJ Stinks]

Any QB and coach combination who win 67 in a row when leading at home at the half must be the greatest cheaters of all time.

Or they are just a pretty awesome combination.

[Robert Fischer]

Gronkowski was a huge loss. He gave them a player with a talent/physical advantage (other than Brady).

Next year they once again have 6 winnable divisional games (Jets,Bills,Fins).

Winning a Super Bowl isn't easy, but it seems like they'll be in the running again next season.

[Valuist]

I think the Patriots have become like the Dungy-Colts (minus the 2006 season). Built to win a lot of regular season games.

[proximity]

I think the Patriots have become like the Dungy-Colts (minus the 2006 season). Built to win a lot of regular season games.

imo, one thing that really hurt the legacy of the 2000s colts was the death of coach dungy's son because that 2005 team was tons the best in the league and when focused woulda beat that pittsburgh team nine times outta ten. they also could have easily won that super bowl vs new orleans, although i do think new orleans was the better team. overall though they were the second best team of the decade to a team with BOTH a solid offense and a solid defense as well as superior coaching (coach belichick) and a winning philosophy.

defensively new england is nowhere near what they were in the 2000s and yet they were still 30 min from winning back to back afc championships. that is a tribute to coach belichick and his ability to continue to be able to find diamonds in the rough and outcasts that fit the system. if i was looking for a football coach i wouldn't hold his cleveland days against him.

[Stillriledup]

Gronkowski was a huge loss. He gave them a player with a talent/physical advantage (other than Brady).

Next year they once again have 6 winnable divisional games (Jets,Bills,Fins).

Winning a Super Bowl isn't easy, but it seems like they'll be in the running again next season.

This is exactly right, they have 6 'free wins' every year, they are automatic division winners, they usually get bye weeks and 2 home games a year, if they played in the NFC east there's no way they would have had nearly as much success. The AFC east has been pretty much a pasty division with teams who roll over for New England, no way this would happen if they were playing NYG, Wash, Dall and Philly twice each season.

[rastajenk]

There must be some horseplayers weighing in on this one, with all the what have you done for me lately attitudes being posted. :p I'm no Pats fan; I like seeing them go down as much as any other non-Pats fan. But get real. In a league based on parity, their record of success this millennium is astounding.

Or maybe you like it when your favorite team figures prominently in the discussion....of the draft. :D

[Stillriledup]

I think the Patriots have become like the Dungy-Colts (minus the 2006 season). Built to win a lot of regular season games.

The Patriots team is Tom Brady, Danny Woodhead and Wes Welker. All three guys have one thing in common and that thing is not necessarily conducive to the physical mano y mano play that the NFL is famous for. So, when the games get bigger and more important, physical size and strength becomes more of a factor than 'smarts' and 'gimmicky' playcalling.

Its fairly easy to push around Tony Sparano (HC of Miami and then OC of the JETS) in a weak division, but when you actually have to play a decent team with a real coaching staff, its not as easy.

[proximity]

This is exactly right, they have 6 'free wins' every year, they are automatic division winners, they usually get bye weeks and 2 home games a year, if they played in the NFC east there's no way they would have had nearly as much success. The AFC east has been pretty much a pasty division with teams who roll over for New England, no way this would happen if they were playing NYG, Wash, Dall and Philly twice each season.

under coach belichick new england has faced the nfc east in 2003,2007, and 2011. they've gone 10-2 in these games, while going 16-2 vs the afc east in those same years. however, overall the afc was the much tougher conference throughout most of that span so by being in the nfc they wouldn't have had to face all three other afc division winners (like the colts and steelers) EVERY year.

that the afc-nfc balance of power has now shifted is keeping them in contention with their declining defense.

[pandy]

I'm not saying they are "finished", but I don't think either will ever win a Super Bowl again. They seem to have lost the hunger that's needed to be at a championship level. Its now been 8 years since they won a Super Bowl, and they have chronically disappointed since. Heavy favorites five years ago and they lost outright to the Giants. Favored last year, and again the same result. They were extremely fortunate to even get to the Super Bowl last year. 2-10 ATS now in their last 12 post-season games.

They'll still get their 11 wins or so next year but no ring. I look for both to retire after the 2015 season.


They did seem flat Sunday but that was just a fluke. They didn't look like they lost the hunger against the Giants in their last two Super Bowls, or in the Playoff wins that they won to get into the Super Bowls. The Giants had more talent, that's why they beat them, but the Patriots played very well and fought hard in both of those S.B. losses to the Giants. They had one flat game, last week. I'm not a Brady fan, he's overrated, but he's very good and they are an amazing organization since Belichick took over, very few star players and tons of wins.

What surprises me the most, the Patriots offense should suck. They don't have any fast players, they have several veterans that are either over the hill or close to it, but they scored more points and got more yards than any team. It's really amazing.

[lamboguy]

against the Ravens, they didn't blitz at all, they squandered plenty of opportunity's, they punted from the opponents 32 yard line. in the 4th quarter the defense got tired and gave up scores. in short this game was poorly coached and it looked to me like they didn't want any part of winning that game.

the Ravens played to win, and were coached perfectly. i hope they have a good super bowl.

[proximity]

What surprises me the most, the Patriots offense should suck. They don't have any fast players, they have several veterans that are either over the hill or close to it, but they scored more points and got more yards than any team. It's really amazing.

i'd say their running backs are serviceable, their line is really good, and their tight ends, quarterback, and coaching are excellent. what they need is wide receivers.

[pandy]

i'd say their running backs are serviceable, their line is really good, and their tight ends, quarterback, and coaching are excellent. what they need is wide receivers.


I agree. It's amazing how many points they score with their slow wide receivers.

Those of you who think that Brady is so great, don't forget that Matt Cassel excelled with New England in 2008 and he was just starting his career, see below. This is one of the many reasons why I believe that Brady, although an outstanding player, is one of the most overrated players of all time. Any good QB can win with New England because they are the best run organization in sports with the best coach. And in those Super Bowl years they also had a great defense.

"Matt Cassel got better as the season progressed including back-to-back 400-yard passing performances against division rivals New York and Miami. He led the Patriots to an 11-5 record which was beyond anyone’s expectations.

Cassel finished his full season with Tom Brady-like stats. He threw for 3693 yards with 21 touchdowns and only 11 interceptions. "

[MutuelClerk]

Exactly Pandy. Brady has easily the best coach of this era. When Brady missed the season the Pats won 11 games. Peyton Manning missed the season the Colts had the number one pick in the draft. The irony is Peyton seems to gag in the playoffs. And Brady is supposed to excel. Both will make the HOF. And yet both seemed flawed and overrated to me.

[Valuist]

I agree. It's amazing how many points they score with their slow wide receivers.

Those of you who think that Brady is so great, don't forget that Matt Cassel excelled with New England in 2008 and he was just starting his career, see below. This is one of the many reasons why I believe that Brady, although an outstanding player, is one of the most overrated players of all time. Any good QB can win with New England because they are the best run organization in sports with the best coach. And in those Super Bowl years they also had a great defense.

"Matt Cassel got better as the season progressed including back-to-back 400-yard passing performances against division rivals New York and Miami. He led the Patriots to an 11-5 record which was beyond anyone’s expectations.

Cassel finished his full season with Tom Brady-like stats. He threw for 3693 yards with 21 touchdowns and only 11 interceptions. "

Cassel had a nice year but I'd hardly say 21 TD passes was "Brady like". They did win 11 games. But this was a team coming off a 16-0 season. They still had a great offensive line as well as Randy Moss and Wes Welker on the outside.

[pandy]

It's a team game. QB's get too much credit when they win and too much blame when they lose. NFL teams have 53 players on each team.

Look at the Broncos. Last year they had Tebow and they went two deep in the playoffs after they beat the Steelers in the first round. This year they had one of the all-time great QB's and they lost in the first round. Tebow got them closer to the S.B. than Manning did.

There are at least a dozen QBs in the NFL that would be just as successful as Brady if they quarterbacked the Patriots.

[Valuist]

It's a team game. QB's get too much credit when they win and too much blame when they lose. NFL teams have 53 players on each team.



I agree 100%. Its NOT all about the quarterback and I've said that for years. Having said that, Brady played poorly last weekend but the reaction now is basically to discredit everything he's accomplished. That's ridiculous. Are there other QB's who could make the Patriots just as successful? Sure, Rodgers, Manning and Brees could. But I'd draw the line there. You say 12, and you could be talking about Matt Schaub or Jay Cutler or Matthew Stafford and I don't think the Patriots would be as successful with them behind center.

[burnsy]

It has alot more to do with defense than the guys on tv ever give credit...look at who made it. the Ravens and the 49ers come to play defense. you can have aaron rodgers or tom brady and be sitting home watching the game because your team can't stop the other guys. for all the hype green bay and new england get because of the QB's they usually get burnt by the team with a defense. you rattle these guys, no matter how good they are and they are still just human.....you can't pass a ball running for your life or laying on your ass. thats been the equation that gets brady beat everytime. the patriots played the bills twice, the jets twice and miami twice. no wonder they scored so much. they lost to baltimore, san fran and seattle...what do those teams do? they play a mean defense. defense wins more championships than the offense or the QB. there are years that powerful offenses win but its usually the best defense that triumphs. hes a great QB but the team is getting slow and old. it showed in the big games this year. football is probably the biggest "team" sport there is, listening to the jackasses like "jaws" on tv you would never think that. stops and kicks mean everything in football. that means punts and field goals. i don't care if the QB is brady ,manning or rodgers, you can't beat that.

[pandy]

I agree. If you look back at the list of Super Bowl winners, almost all of them had top defenses. There were a few exceptions in the past 12 years, Rams in 2000, Colts in 07 and Saints in 2010 were mainly offensive teams, but all the other teams won with defense.

Some QBs are outstanding under pass pressure, though, and Brady is not one of them.