Aqu R 7 1/18/13 - Convocation

[moneyandland]

Convocation was claimed in Nov 2012 for $50K after a 1 year layoff, returned after another 2 months off for $30K, obviously a sign of trouble. Here's where my mind was wondering prior to the race.... IF the horse is a DUD/injured/whatever, Repole stables are out, $50K, big deal that's the game they know it, Pletcher loses a horse, loses some face, but he's got 500 more, the one with something to lose is Ramon Dominguez, he's gotta climb aboard the animal and go for a ride, risking far more than his $ or pride for a $30K clm, I understand that every mount he takes is risk, but does he know in advance what the horses issue is/was/might be? Does he even ask or just take the mount? I can see a young jock wanting mounts for repole/pletcher so taking the risk maybe worth it, but its not like pletchers going to say to dominguez, you didnt ride my 30 claimer so you dont ride my stakes horses

I hope Ramon is OK, no news yet

[FantasticDan]

The DRF twitter feed says that Convocation is okay, and fell after clipping heels, not a breakdown. Ramon going to hospital for evaluation.

[Stillriledup]

Convocation was claimed in Nov 2012 for $50K after a 1 year layoff, returned after another 2 months off for $30K, obviously a sign of trouble. Here's where my mind was wondering prior to the race.... IF the horse is a DUD/injured/whatever, Repole stables are out, $50K, big deal that's the game they know it, Pletcher loses a horse, loses some face, but he's got 500 more, the one with something to lose is Ramon Dominguez, he's gotta climb aboard the animal and go for a ride, risking far more than his $ or pride for a $30K clm, I understand that every mount he takes is risk, but does he know in advance what the horses issue is/was/might be? Does he even ask or just take the mount? I can see a young jock wanting mounts for repole/pletcher so taking the risk maybe worth it, but its not like pletchers going to say to dominguez, you didnt ride my 30 claimer so you dont ride my stakes horses

I hope Ramon is OK, no news yet

Not sure if the horse clipped heels or just broke down. He was in tight when the incident happened.

Repole has won with droppers like these...he's an owner willing to lose a little money in order to be 'leading owner' and he did many of these 'mysterious' droppers at the Spa last summer.

[moneyandland]

Not sure if the horse clipped heels or just broke down. He was in tight when the incident happened.

Repole has won with droppers like these...he's an owner willing to lose a little money in order to be 'leading owner' and he did many of these 'mysterious' droppers at the Spa last summer.


I don't have the charts to back it up but I'm pretty sure every Repole horse I saw taking a huge drop ran horribly at Saratoga

[moneyandland]

The DRF twitter feed says that Convocation is okay, and fell after clipping heels, not a breakdown. Ramon going to hospital for evaluation.


NOT THE POINT, don't care if the horse won by 15 lengths, the point was does a jockey like Dominguez know what's wrong with a horse?

[RXB]

NOT THE POINT, don't care if the horse won by 15 lengths, the point was does a jockey like Dominguez know what's wrong with a horse?

I don't know how anyone could read your original post and not think that you believed the horse had broke down-- which it didn't. Thus, Fantastic Dan's post really was to THE POINT.

[Some_One]

No one is forcing the jockey on top of the horse, the jockey/agent can read a form, they know the trainers.

[Stillriledup]

NOT THE POINT, don't care if the horse won by 15 lengths, the point was does a jockey like Dominguez know what's wrong with a horse?

Trainers are VERY cautious of putting an elite guy down on any kind of horse who might be compromised. I remember many years ago i was in a conversation with a hardboot type of trainer who was a regular on the NY circuit, he was in his 60s and had been training for decades. He had won a race with a really good allowance type with Jorge Velasquez and i asked him about his runner tomorrow and he told me that he couldnt put JV down on that type of horse, he was like "oh no, you cant do that". So i guess many trainers understand that you cant use an elite guy on a horse who might be compromised in any way.

Of course, this trainer im talking about isnt of the Pletcher calibre, he was a smaller outfit so maybe Pletcher can 'get away with' sticking up top jocks on compromised horses but that's neither here nor there considering the horse clipped heels and didnt break down according to the reports.

[Robert Fischer]

NOT THE POINT, don't care if the horse won by 15 lengths, the point was does a jockey like Dominguez know what's wrong with a horse?

If he clipped heels, it's possible that nothing was wrong with the horse. I couldn't tell if it was a breakdown or clipping heels in tight quarters. About a $200 swing in bankroll for me on that horse.

These jockeys don't ask questions.
You do see situations in lower claiming ranks where a barn's top jockey isn't on a horse you would normally see him on.

[moneyandland]

I don't know how anyone could read your original post and not think that you believed the horse had broke down-- which it didn't. Thus, Fantastic Dan's post really was to THE POINT.


Doesnt matter if I thought the horse flew to the moon, nowhere did I ask does anyone know if the horse broke down, and regardless of what you inferred from my post the question was does a jockey know why a horse is dropping?


RXB please go back to school and learn how to comprehend what an authors main POINT is... Fantastic Dan's post had absolutely nothing to do with THE POINT of my post

[FrankieFigs]

The talk on HRTV was clipped heels caused the wipeout.

If Dominguez had a crystal ball and could predict that, then his safety wouldn't be compromised, right moneyandland? :rolleyes:

Hope he is ok; word is he left in ambulance.

[Robert Fischer]

chart is saying the horse walked off the track.

Convocation was claimed for 30K by Dunn, new trainer Jacobson.

[turninforhome10]

Jacobsen to Convocation back for the 30k. Who will ride him next. Horse was trying to get out on the first turn and the whole way down the backside. Upon review, he clipped heels. Horse will be ok, but Ramon got stepped on for sure.
Synthetic Anyone? I am sure the safety cops are gonna be all over this one, especially with the drop in price.

[moneyandland]

The fact that the horse fell down has nothing to do with anything, you guys are some hardheads, I never even mentioned it, 9 posts in and only 2 of them really address my question

[turninforhome10]

Convocation was claimed in Nov 2012 for $50K after a 1 year layoff, returned after another 2 months off for $30K, obviously a sign of trouble. Here's where my mind was wondering prior to the race.... IF the horse is a DUD/injured/whatever, Repole stables are out, $50K, big deal that's the game they know it, Pletcher loses a horse, loses some face, but he's got 500 more, the one with something to lose is Ramon Dominguez, he's gotta climb aboard the animal and go for a ride, risking far more than his $ or pride for a $30K clm, I understand that every mount he takes is risk, but does he know in advance what the horses issue is/was/might be? Does he even ask or just take the mount? I can see a young jock wanting mounts for repole/pletcher so taking the risk maybe worth it, but its not like pletchers going to say to dominguez, you didnt ride my 30 claimer so you dont ride my stakes horses

I hope Ramon is OK, no news yet

I really have a hard time believing that Ramon's agent would put him on a cripple. If the horse had real problems, he would have been shipped to Parx and get a bug boy. They wanted to win the race and took no chances by booking Ramon. They win and give the horse back to Jacobsen. By the year layoff I would bet that he broke a bone or a suspensory issue.

[RXB]

Doesnt matter if I thought the horse flew to the moon, nowhere did I ask does anyone know if the horse broke down, and regardless of what you inferred from my post the question was does a jockey know why a horse is dropping?


RXB please go back to school and learn how to comprehend what an authors main POINT is... Fantastic Dan's post had absolutely nothing to do with THE POINT of my post

You would never have started this thread had you not believed that the horse had broken down; you know it, I know it, Fantastic Dan knew it (thus his reply), everyone knows it so why not stop pretending otherwise?

[moneyandland]

You would never have started this thread had you not believed that the horse had broken down; you know it, I know it, Fantastic Dan knew it (thus his reply), everyone knows it so why not stop pretending otherwise?


It doesnt matter and you don't even know if the horse didn't break down for sure? It looks like the horse was clear of any actual contact, chart says the horse took a bad step and fell heavily, was escorted off, so it's not like the horse said I'm ok, I will say that I do believe the horse fell because of an issue he has, but that's beside the point, stop pretending you can read into everyone's motives, when you can't read comprehensibly AND even if I had said OH THAT HORSE BROKE DOWN and then made the thread, it still doesn't change the question I brought up It appeared to me that Dominguez tried to make a big athletic move with the horse to cross into a seam, and that the horse wasn't physically capable of doing so safely

[tzipi]

Andy retweeted from NYRA that Ramon was conscious and moving his fingers and toes so hopefully everything is ok.

[RXB]

It doesnt matter and you don't even know if the horse didn't break down for sure? It looks like the horse was clear of any actual contact, chart says the horse took a bad step and fell heavily, was escorted off, so it's not like the horse said I'm ok, I will say that I do believe the horse fell because of an issue he has, but that's beside the point, stop pretending you can read into everyone's motives, when you can't read comprehensibly AND even if I had said OH THAT HORSE BROKE DOWN and then made the thread, it still doesn't change the question I brought up It appeared to me that Dominguez tried to make a big athletic move with the horse to cross into a seam, and that the horse wasn't physically capable of doing so safely

I don't have to pretend anything; you've finally admitted the motive for starting this thread.

Convocation was in a tight spot following very closely behind a wall of horses and nicked the heel of one in front of him, probably Sovereign Default's. That's all. It was not some physical issue that sent him to the ground.

By the way, top jockeys ride questionable class droppers with regularity. David Jacobson would have to ship in riders from Charles Town otherwise.

[Stillriledup]

Andy retweeted from NYRA that Ramon was conscious and moving his fingers and toes so hopefully everything is ok.

Wow, that's great news....lets hope we can get more of the same later on.

[moneyandland]

I don't have to pretend anything; you've finally admitted the motive for starting this thread.

Convocation was in a tight spot following very closely behind a wall of horses and nicked the heel of one in front of him, probably Sovereign Default's. That's all. It was not some physical issue that sent him to the ground.

By the way, top jockeys ride questionable class droppers with regularity. David Jacobson would have to ship in riders from Charles Town otherwise.


You've got a thick skull, probably take a jackhammer to get through to you, The question isn't do top jocks ride questionable droppers, it was do they know the reason why the horse is dropping.... Jacobson seems to always be the one claiming the question marks, not the one dropping them also

[RXB]

You've got a thick skull, probably take a jackhammer to get through to you, The question isn't do top jocks ride questionable droppers, it was do they know the reason why the horse is dropping.... Jacobson seems to always be the one claiming the question marks, not the one dropping them also

And you're accusing me of having a thick skull. Yeah, Jacobson rarely drops off the claim. :rolleyes: Anyway, my work here is complete.

[moneyandland]

And you're accusing me of having a thick skull. Yeah, Jacobson rarely drops off the claim. :rolleyes: Anyway, my work here is complete.


Theres a difference in dropping off the claim and suspicious dropping off the claim when your talking clm for 25 back in for 15 and a claim for 50 that's been off a year and back in for 30, and having watched the head on multiple times you cant see any contact so your just forming your opinion based on what you see, I see a horse running sideways, trying to jump left to get to a spot to the right and going down in a heap

[Robert Fischer]

in general the rider just rides

If you see a ride where the jock didn't try

or you see the trainer not riding his first call jock on a low-claimer,

then you can guess along like the rest of us.

[moneyandland]

in general the rider just rides

If you see a ride where the jock didn't try

or you see the trainer not riding his first call jock on a low-claimer,

then you can guess along like the rest of us.

Thanks for answering, I guess my feeling I got from today was that a jockey that just rides mounts unquestioning has a lot of faith in others

[tzipi]

Wow, that's great news....lets hope we can get more of the same later on.

They just said it's a bruised eye and he will stay overnight for evaluation. Good news :ThmbUp:

[RXB]

Theres a difference in dropping off the claim and suspicious dropping off the claim when your talking clm for 25 back in for 15 and a claim for 50 that's been off a year and back in for 30, and having watched the head on multiple times you cant see any contact so your just forming your opinion based on what you see, I see a horse running sideways, trying to jump left to get to a spot to the right and going down in a heap

You're the one seeing what you want to see.

And your attempt to differentiate between Pletcher/Repole's claim of Convocation and the type of horse Jacobson would claim is hilarious-- and made even more so by the fact that Jacobson claimed Convocation today. FYI, about 50% of the horses that he claims are subsequently made available to be claimed away from him for a lesser purchase price in their first or second start after his claim. So much for the "not the one dropping them also" idea.

[davew]

Convocation would have won today-> was gaining very fast around corner near top of stretch - and either tried to fit through a hole that closed or just ran up the rear of a horse in front, tangled legs and fell.

I have noticed many problems occur at end of corner near top of stretch, and no racing jurisdictions seem to have good camera for that location where trouble frequently occurs..

[moneyandland]

You're the one seeing what you want to see.

And your attempt to differentiate between Pletcher/Repole's claim of Convocation and the type of horse Jacobson would claim is hilarious-- and made even more so by the fact that Jacobson claimed Convocation today. FYI, about 50% of the horses that he claims are subsequently made available to be claimed away from him for a lesser purchase price in their first or second start after his claim. So much for the "not the one dropping them also" idea.


Jacobson claims alot of horses that DNF that was my whole point, you keep trying to jump to conclusions about my posts but they're the wrong conclusions, Convocation is exactly the horse Jacobson claims, one that looks like its on its last legs at any point, which is why he can put them in even lower in their next start, I never said he didn't drop them and you only prove yourself to be more of an idiot, I said Jacobson drops are not alarming because they're routine, he takes em from 35 to 25, 25 to 15, 12.5 to 10, drops for less but BFD because the purse is inflated to 200% more than the horses worth so a single win pays for 2 losses, Take a look at the horses Pletcher has dropped out of the sky, they're most likely lost causes

[moneyandland]

You're the one seeing what you want to see.

And your attempt to differentiate between Pletcher/Repole's claim of Convocation and the type of horse Jacobson would claim is hilarious-- and made even more so by the fact that Jacobson claimed Convocation today. FYI, about 50% of the horses that he claims are subsequently made available to be claimed away from him for a lesser purchase price in their first or second start after his claim. So much for the "not the one dropping them also" idea.

The alarming drop wasn't Convocation to 50K after a year off it, it was to 30K without a start after the 50K, I don't think you understand what an alarming drop is

[FantasticDan]

Ramon has a fractured skull:

http://www.drf.com/news/aqueduct-cat-scan-reveals-dominguez-has-skull-fracture-following-friday-spill

[Tom]

What would be a non-alarming drop from 50K?

[tzipi]

Ramon has a fractured skull:

http://www.drf.com/news/aqueduct-cat-scan-reveals-dominguez-has-skull-fracture-following-friday-spill

Oh man worse than I heard. Hope he's ok. Get better Ramon!

[moneyandland]

What would be a non-alarming drop from 50K?

Any horse that drops from 50K to any other race? how about a horse that has raced ok in his last 2 fighting the pace and faltering to 3rd or 4th if that horse drops to 35K that wouldnt be alarming at all because the purse difference decrease is small compared to win chances increase

[johnhannibalsmith]

Four time winner goes from a 2x allowance/optional to a non-three life/straight/4yo./nonwinnersinceNov. condition. That's the drop, not the claiming price. That's a huge move in condition. He claims him for $50k, runs back for $30k with $22k to the winner - considering he's been in the barn for a few weeks, it's around a get even proposition. But that's what winning claiming owners that like to win races do happily. If you wanted to chart his entire history, you could get alarmed I suppose, but that move from tough $50k optionals to conditioned $30k for a break-even move with a seven-year-old doesn't get me too stirred.

[ten2oneormore]

The alarming drop wasn't Convocation to 50K after a year off it, it was to 30K without a start after the 50K, I don't think you understand what an alarming drop is

Pletcher has Finale in for 40k tomorrow at GP .I think that is pretty alarming

[Linny]

The fact that the horse fell down has nothing to do with anything, you guys are some hardheads, I never even mentioned it, 9 posts in and only 2 of them really address my question


I didn't use Convocation for the reasons in your first post. The drop etc was a concern and there were viable others. That said, apart from the clipped heels, there is no reason to think, in retrospect that anything was wrong with the horse.

As for riders/agents knowing if a horse has a wheel coming off... I don't know. It's really the agents job to be as aware as possible of perils like that. Every agent I know is a superb reader of the past performances and watches races like a hawk, for clues of horses going in either direction. A rider has the option of asking for a further vet exam when they are nearing the gate if the horse feels off.
No trainer sends a horse out thinking that he's going to crash that day, though some do know that they have issues that could be time bombs. The dumping we saw last year has been moderated a bit this winter.

As for the original question, the phrasing makes it appear that you believe AFTER THE RACE that there was something very wrong with the horse, and thus asked. The "hardheaded" responses are because the resondents don't think in retrospect that Convocation was a mess.

[Rise Over Run]

Pletcher has Finale in for 40k tomorrow at GP .I think that is pretty alarming
How do you figure this is alarming? He's not competitive in stakes races, and was only ever competitive in them as a 2yo. He doesn't have any allowance conditions and they're putting him in a spot where he at least has a reasonable chance to be competitive. I could see your point if they entered him for $20k over at Tampa. And on that note, I wouldn't touch this horse tomorrow at a likely price of < 2-1.

[ten2oneormore]

How do you figure this is alarming? He's not competitive in stakes races, and was only ever competitive in them as a 2yo. He doesn't have any allowance conditions and they're putting him in a spot where he at least has a reasonable chance to be competitive. I could see your point if they entered him for $20k over at Tampa. And on that note, I wouldn't touch this horse tomorrow at a likely price of < 2-1.

Maybe not the most alarming drop ever, I just think they are giving up rather quickly.
I wouldn't bet him with your money but if I were in the claiming game I'd snatch him up.Think he has the potential to be a good turf sprinter.

[wisconsin]

Maybe not the most alarming drop ever, I just think they are giving up rather quickly.
I wouldn't bet him with your money but if I were in the claiming game I'd snatch him up.Think he has the potential to be a good turf sprinter.

Wait, first you find it alarming, and then you say if you were in the claiming game, you would claim the horse? :eek:

It's really not alarming, it's actually the next logical place to put a horse like this.

All of a sudden, people are freaking out over drop downs even though we have seen it forever.

[ten2oneormore]

Wait, first you find it alarming, and then you say if you were in the claiming game, you would claim the horse? :eek:

It's really not alarming, it's actually the next logical place to put a horse like this.

All of a sudden, people are freaking out over drop downs even though we have seen it forever.

I took it as Alarming = Surprising:eek: .
Webster may define it differently.

I'm surprised to see him in for a 40k tag:ThmbUp:.If you say its where he belongs then I'm convinced:ThmbUp:.

[wisconsin]

I just think it's a screwed up horse, which is not to be confused with unsound.

They really don't write N4L or N3X races too much anymore, and it's been awhile since I saw 75,000 claimers on the grass. The horse has no finish on paper, so maybe this gets the job done. There's nothing to be garnered from the :47 workout, either. We know this horse has speed.

[PaceAdvantage]

Thanks for answering, I guess my feeling I got from today was that a jockey that just rides mounts unquestioning has a lot of faith in othersYou act as if this is some sort of scientific endeavor and that there isn't a ton of faith involved in ALL RIDES on ALL HORSES.

If your original question was "Is there a meeting every morning between vets, trainers and jockeys where the elite jockeys are tipped off on the bad horses while the hungry scrappers are sitting there pissing in their pants knowing they will be playing Russian Roulette later that afternoon..." I would guess the answer would be no, there are no such meetings.

[wisconsin]

:ThmbUp:.If you say its where he belongs then I'm convinced:ThmbUp:.


Placed where he could win, just what the doctor ordered :ThmbUp:

[Rise Over Run]

Won in a fairly average race for $40k claimers. Not claimed, and this horse is so far from a turf sprinter it's not funny. The one to worry about out of this one is Timeless Fashion, the 9yo gelding.

[ten2oneormore]

Won in a fairly average race for $40k claimers. Not claimed, and this horse is so far from a turf sprinter it's not funny. The one to worry about out of this one is Timeless Fashion, the 9yo gelding.

Based on what?He is exactly the type that does very well down the hill at SA or if in NY would think the Jaipur would be right in his wheelhouse.Don't see why shorter distances aren't worth a try either.He broke his maiden by 5 1/2 at 6f in 2nd gear.

[Shelby]

http://nyra.com/aqueduct/stories/Jan262013.shtml#.UQQu2zoJjG4.twitter


I hope he recovers soon...it sounds way more serious than I thought.

[Robert Fischer]

he got hurt bad.

He'll probably ride again, but it was a serious injury.

[Stillriledup]

Any updates on RAD? Last i heard it was good news....is there a timetable for his return, i dont recall hearing how long he would be out?

[Robert Fischer]

http://www.drf.com/news/aqueduct-dominguez-says-brain-injury-worse-he-had-thought

get well soon Ramon

[Robert Goren]

Has Convocation raced again?

[Rise Over Run]

Has Convocation raced again?
Ran 5th of 6 on March 17th for 20k and was claimed.

[chadk66]

Agent, therefore jockey knew exactly what was wrong with the horse if anything is. an agent for a top tier rider isn't going to commit to riding any horse that is suspect like that whether it's for pletcher or any other top tier trainer. it's a silent code in the industry, take my word for it.

[nijinski]

In case anyone still wondered . Convocation was scratched from his
last entry ,Suffolk , as he was bought back by Centennial Farms to retire ! :ThmbUp: