Do you want to win?

[alysheba88]

i think far too often handicappers lie to themselves and to each other. I could be a millionaire if I had $100 for all the times I heard or read "I dont expect to win, this is a hobby for me".

Why would someone bet money and not want to win? More importantly what is more enjoyable action or winning money?

Am convinced more then ever that people dont want to do what it takes to win and then rationalize it that " no one wins" or " i am just doing this for fun".

[lousycapperII]

Originally posted by alysheba88 (MW) Am convinced more then ever that people dont want to do what it takes to win and then rationalize it that " no one wins" or " i am just doing this for fun".

Mr./Ms. Alysheba88,

You are right...people program themselves to lose..."I can afford to lose $100.00", et cetera. This is a business not a game! If you intend to win then you must think like a winner and act like a business person.

-LCII

[PaceAdvantage]

Maybe if you would part with some of that wisdom on "how to think like a winner", instead of spouting the useless condescending BS you usually spout, you'd have a longer life around here.

[lousycapperII]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Maybe if you would part with some of that wisdom on "how to think like a winner", instead of spouting the useless condescending BS you usually spout, you'd have a longer life around here.

Mr. PaceAdvantage,

It is very doubtful anyone here would take the advice of a 16 year old because these folks have been around many more years than me. That said, it doesn't mean they know more, just that they have spent more time on this planet. When is the last time you listened to a teen-ager? Pity, but that's the way the cookie crumbles. As to a longer life, who knows? I try to enjoy each and every heart beat. You can never be sure when the last one will occur.

HANE

-LCII

[alysheba88]

I apologize if I offended anyone with my post. Came across a little strong.

[Valuist]

I think you are 100% correct. My answer is that most people are too lazy. Have you ever tried talking to somebody at the track about key races or pace times and they look at you like you're talking Chinese? We're living in a digitally-driven, instant gratification lazy society.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by lousycapperII
Mr. PaceAdvantage,

It is very doubtful anyone here would take the advice of a 16 year old because these folks have been around many more years than me. That said, it doesn't mean they know more, just that they have spent more time on this planet. When is the last time you listened to a teen-ager? Pity, but that's the way the cookie crumbles. As to a longer life, who knows? I try to enjoy each and every heart beat. You can never be sure when the last one will occur.

HANE

-LCII


a) I thought you were 17

b) when I said "longer life", I also included the phrase "around here", meaning LIFE ON THIS MESSAGE BOARD, not life in general.

c) You still haven't offered ANY advice for us to chew on (except that most everyone and everything posted here is either wrong, a lie, a come-on, or all three).


So....how about it? Teach me how you THINK LIKE A WINNER! Surely this wouldn't be "giving away the store." Give us something!

[Buddha]

alysheba, without those players who "play for fun" and don't know as much about the everyday things such as key races, pace figs, etc, who are we going to win the money from? Just think how they actually help the better players by possibly giving your horse a better price instead of it being bet more you like think that it should.

Most of the players on this board or fairly serious, and while all may not be winning handicappers, they at least know more about the game and try harder than your average track goer.

[alysheba88]

I totally agree Buddha, and was definitely not talking about those on this board.

We all need "square money" if we are to win ourselves. I was at the track the other day and thats what I was thinking about with the "do you want to win" question. The characters you see and the excuses you hear are too much.

God bless those who dont buy a form or anything comparable and just bet the program. Focusing on jockeys and favorites and thats it.

[so.cal.fan]

LousycapperII

I'd listen to a sixteen year old handicapper!
I'm a 60 year old handicapper and guess what?
I made better selections when I was 16!

Like PA suggested, share some of your opinions, we won't hurt your prices, most of us are too old and stubborn to pay any mind, most, but I will!:)

[Dan]

alysheba88,

I would think you need to ask yourself why are you worried about other people? But then I could ask myself "Why do I need to tell Alysheba88 to not worry about other people?" A vicious circle.

But seriously though we need these kind of people to help finance ourselves. Not that I've arrived at that point yet. Now, by me saying that I could be that person you originally created the message for about "Not expecting to win." Another circle.

Really though I have another theory about guys who go to the track or the OTB. They are like the ones who like to go fishing. Where else can you go and drink beer to your heart's content and not have your wife nagging you about it?

BL

[andicap]

Originally posted by alysheba88 (MW)


Why would someone bet money and not want to win? More importantly what is more enjoyable action or winning money?
.

This is why people spend $150 or more an hour talking to shrinks. Not about racing per se, why the whole fear of failure, fear of success thing.

Winning at anything in life is mainly mental: How many people get rich with limited skills, talents, etc., but have the drive and one great talent, e.g. ability to market themselves -- like say Madonna. Are lots of better singers, dancers better looking and with better bodies than hers. Why did she succeed when others failed?

Here's a big psychological barrier: You work hard and you still lose. If you tell yourself in the beginning that you can't win, so why work hard, you won't risk failure. It's not unlike dating. If I don't ask that woman out I can't be rejected and I know I'm not good enough for her.

Similarly, if I expect to lose, I won't consider myself a failure when I do lose.

Having said that, I too do not understand why these people persist unless they are hoping lightning strikes or they enjoy beating themselves over the head.

[yak merchant]

Everyone says they "Want" to win, but the way I see it people fall into different categories.

1. Those who gamble to gamble. Winning doesn't matter as long as there is action, so they just want to win enough so that along with their salaries they can keep gambling. This type in the racing world is the smart man's slot player. Smart enought to realize that pulling a one armed bandit is futile, but stupid enough to bet into a 20% take with out any advantage. Horse racing serves these people well, as races last only two minutes and they are back to back. When even a football game lasts a couple of hours.

2. Those who really want to win, will work at it, but just don't have the mental horsepower to make it happen.

3. Those who say they want to win, are smart enough to win, but don't want to put forth the effort necessary to make it happen.

4. The few and far between who actually do play the horses for a living, treat it like a business and divorce themselves from any emotion.

5. Those smart enough, willing to work, but don't have the self control to manage the money properly or stop making action bets. Direct cousin to Type #1.

6. Those who use the handicapping puzzle as their mental masturbation. The challenge of discerning the winning horse by sifting through a mountain of data in just a few hours if not minutes. The not to distant cousin of type #1 as this type also relishs the fact that his brilliance is either confirmed or denied in 2 minutes flat. Those who don't want the black box fall into this category.

7. And finally my favorite type, which most of this board is comprised of. Those who are smart enough, are most likely willing to work hard enough, but don't put forth the 100% effort because they don't want to find out the truth. Dreaming of the fantasy land and the easy life of the horseplayer who rolls out of bed at 11:00 drops a couple of grand on 12-1 wire to wire winner. Has a few cocktails at lunch and a $200 dollar cold exacta before hitting the golf course. Nobody wants to ruin that fantasy. What if they put two to five years worth of blood, sweat and tears into beating the game, only to come up empty. Much easier to half ass it and spout unproven theories and say you could be the greatest full time player of all time. If you spend day and night for five years trying to make it and you don't you, you've done the hard work and are pretty much dealt the ego crushing blow that you either belong in category 5 or more likely category 2.

Now I guess I'm a category six, with a tiny category five in me. And for me, it's not the fear of being a category 2, I think most if it is, the fact that horse racing is the only gambling pursuit that still interests me, and I know if I do spend the time and effort, that I have about a 70% chance of becoming a type four. But the problem with being a type four, is after a while you hate it. Just like any business. It's taken me 10 years to consistently win betting on college sports. And where I used to think March Madness and the college bowls where the greatest things ever, now I just can't get excited to watch anything or cheer for anyone. Because to be a type four in sports betting, you have to remove all emotion, and seriously dull all senses and have zero memory. It's made me almost not like what used to be my favorite things. And I'm almost positive the same thing will happen if I spend the next five years with my head down at my computer writing code for horse racing instead of sports.

[BillW]

Originally posted by yak merchant


4. The few and far between who actually do play the horses for a living, treat it like a business and divorce themselves from any emotion.


YM,

Great Post. I would also imagine that there is a type that that does win but knows better than to enter the abyss of #4. That for which I aspire :).

Bill

[Suff]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
a) I thought you were 17



taking it sideways.

This is an issue here on Pace Advantage.com. A Big one that needs addressing imho.

This is just soley my opinion. PA is one of the most popular Horse message boards on the net.

We have our share of industry people that post here and our share of known players here. The board has credibilty to some degree. As best as we can have with the intenet offering the level of anonymity it does.

People are riding that credibilty.

People say things here all the time about themselves and about horse racing and it has "some" legitmate juice here.
But more and more I see people selling things... pumping things, and spreading thier FREAK SHOW out here with total anonymity.

I realize PA has no way of policing this. So nothing can really be done. But its wearing on me.

I've been hanging around here near 2 years. Its getting old quick. The culprits range from this moron... who's been selling himself as a teenager since he re-showed a few months ago. To Vet scratch who hangs in here 4-24 hours a day, has an opinion on everything, has caused his/her share of muck. I don't even know his/her gender, name, or location. He/she drops all kinds of misleadng and various background experiences but has never backed up an ounce of it with real information.

No one is under any obligation to do anything... Thats the internet. I undertsand that. But I hang here myself quite a bit and its starting to really wear on me. I'm reading things over and over from Freaks...mis-fits, losers, shut-ins, phonies, wierdos and idiots. They assume they have some credibility out here.

I don't expect anyone to do what I have done..

I've met 50+ players from this board...I've traveled to NYC multiple times and spent time with members there,,,I've had Telephone conversations with that many and more. I've even had a 1/2 dozen guys from the board into my home and have SEEN how I live. Thats very real.

My name is known and the rest of my Vitals have been spread around here at one time or another as well.

I'm finding it harder and harder to spend this amount of time conversing with people I think are bullshit. If someone is a member here 6 months, posts often and goes out of thier way to remain anonymous....they're either a BS artist or have a Legitmate need to remain anonymous. But when someone like VS constantly throws out crumbs of information over 2000 posts and 9 months time... its a game. A game I don't want to play..

With him/her or any of the other shitheads like this BOZO.

And another big offender is the constant SARTIN posts.

I realize thier are SARTIN groupies out here and I say TFB.

I have spoken with people who gave the man money and did'nt get what they paid for and got unanswered e-mails and Phone calls for 2 years. That makes him a Thief where I come from..

Yet PA,,,who by his own admission grew up on the SARTIN METHODOLOGY, allows SARTIN freaks to Post more stuff asking for money. Why? He F'd up. He did'nt deliver. Now he's persona-nongrata in my book..

So why does PA constantly allow Sartin threads with Yahoo domain e-mail address's to post telephone numbers for SALES?

This is my hang out? A place where freaks and thieves run free?

No thanks.

[keilan]

Hey yak merchant -- enjoyed your 2 cents worth. 12 posts since May 2002 isn't enough.


Suff it's the world we live in, take a deep breath and keep on plugging. I understand you have a lot on your plate right now but I left you a message in Sunday's P4 contest thread. Whenever you get time I would appreciate a reply.

[JimG]

Yak Merchant...fantastic post.

Suff...Awhile back I posted I was leaving when I was not enjoying it here as much as I used to...I got a couple of posts telling me basically don't let the door hit my ass on the way out (ie. grow-up etc.)...I thought about that and decided I was taking this board a little too serious and really enjoyed it too much to leave. I'm glad I stayed.

When someone posts here that I think is full of it, I read maybe the first sentence, and if it looks like the same old dribble, I don't bother.

The primary reason I am glad I stayed is the friendships I have made in the war room grinding it out with some really talented cappers. For me, playing the races for real is what it is about. If I want to read theory, I'll pick up a book by Mitchell, Quinn, etc. Don't need this board for that.

Hope you stay. If you decide to go, just remember all the great friendships you've made here as a result of your get together last year and remember your time on this board fondly.

JimG

[Suff]

Originally posted by JimG


Hope you stay. .

JimG

I'm too plugged in here to suggest I am just going to disappear...

and I'm not looking to have my back rubbed.

My MO when I go down is usually to go down in a Hail of bullets.
PA will boot or bar me before I go quietly.

What that post is about is..."i'm looking for a fight".

I don't give away whats important to me...as this board is. You gotta take it from me.

[alysheba88]

Yak merchant. Great great post about the different profiles. You put into words what I was fumbling to get at.

[jk3521]

WOW!!! You said it all!! Great post!!

[jjgold]

I do not know who this character alysheba is but I think he might be right. I fall into the category of not wanting to win and bet more for the rush or action. I any given day I try to bet as many races as i can just so I get the rush and no other sport gives this rush. This past weekend I dropped $2200 on betting over 135 races but i loved it/ The money did not really mean much as long as i had action. I think most guys crave the simulcasting like i do. I love that I can get bets in every 5-7 minutes and the day flies by. I do beleive racing is a sport to enjoy and is more about getting down than winning. I could care less if i ever win as long as I have the rush.

[Tom]

Gee, Suff.
Sorry we don't measure up to YOUR expectations
But maybe, just maybe, a lot of people actually ENJOY what you call crap.
I am glad to see the Sartin posts, and I even signed up for the Yahoo groups, even though I do not use Sartin progrms anymore.
I am glad Dave kept me up to date on his work because I use his pars and it is nice to know when updates are ready. Melman turned me onto Simuhlep, which I found worth the price. And other guys here have posted things that I have found useful, even though I do not know their real names. Who cares?
If this is such a sh*t house board, you would never know it from the number of people and posts here everyday.
PA has an ignore button. And it's free.

[Suff]

Originally posted by Tom

PA has an ignore button. And it's free.
you should put me on it.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Yep, some are in this for the action and to get excited. Some just want to win. I am in it to win, and cheer on whatever horse is in the lead anyway. And I have used the ignore button! (rarely!) Non-anonymous.

[lousycapperII]

Originally posted by Suff
taking it sideways.

I've been hanging around here near 2 years. Its getting old quick. The culprits range from this moron... who's been selling himself as a teenager since he re-showed a few months ago.

Mr. Suff:

:D You seem to delight in venting your frustrations on someone you don't know the first thing about. I'm flattered that you think I'm older than 16. If only it were true.

Your "head up and locked" attitude surely won't win any friends or influence any people around here. Perhaps if you were to drain that sh!t up your neck...well, you know what I mean. No disrespect intended...just an observation. NO REPLY NECESSARY! :D

-LCII

[Gold Bay]

Yak very well put. Im a lurker HERE I check everyday,but if I dont have anything to add why should I post? I love horseracing and I love to learn. I have researched 4 software programs I learned about HERE. Ive had on going email dialogs with some great folks that I met HERE. Insights and facts about the game that I would have never thought of on my own Ive discovered HERE. Ive learned a ton from VS Tom Jag DaveS Game Cj to name just a few and they all post HERE. Sure there is the usual BS but if that is the price to pay to visit HERE so be it Where else can you get this? Only HERE.

[freeneasy]

Originally posted by Tom
Gee, Suff.
Sorry we don't measure up to YOUR expectations
But maybe, just maybe, a lot of people actually ENJOY what you call crap.
I am glad to see the Sartin posts, and I even signed up for the Yahoo groups, even though I do not use Sartin progrms anymore.
I am glad Dave kept me up to date on his work because I use his pars and it is nice to know when updates are ready. Melman turned me onto Simuhlep, which I found worth the price. And other guys here have posted things that I have found useful, even though I do not know their real names. Who cares?
If this is such a sh*t house board, you would never know it from the number of people and posts here everyday.
PA has an ignore button. And it's free.
no its not, it was'nt me, i didnt do it, iwas'nt their, and i had nothing to do with it, and i resemble the implication thank you very much

[Suff]

I did'nt post a POLL did I ? or ask anyone for thier opinion..

Its humorous that people thought I was soliciting opinions.


There a great group of people here. But theres about 20 snakes.
Snakes I'm gonna root out one by one. I get around...
I go to alot of stakes races, Breeders cups , Saratoga...whatever. I'm not hard to find. I'll stand up to anything I post or have posted anytime, anywhere.

I'm a bit friendly with PA. Trade 3-5 notes a week with him. Mike...anything you have to say.. say out on the Board... Or don't and boot me. But no more PM's telling me lay off certain guys and certain topics. I'm coming out.


Sartin.. how the hell can you delete my post about Walter Case hitting the bottle because it was unsubstaniated, then leave SARTIN stuff up? You know he beat guys? Magazines, toothpicks.. whatever. It was a straight out take the money and run. 2 years MIA on many guys. What are you doing leaving SARTIN Posts up. Why don't you show some BALLS and LEADERSHIP and ask the guys who got beat to send you thier names.. then e-mail or call Sartin and say...

"when you make things right with my guys...and not just even steven... TAKE CARE OF THEM!" Then your name can appear on my board. Until then. Your gone. Take care of your guys... Not someone who made an impression in horse racing 20 years ago.
Your editing my stuff while a proven beat gets replayed on the board? Where's the principles? Some sense of responsibity to the NEW member or Horse player.

Even a Dislaimer...saying people have negative and costly experiences with the SARTIN sales program? Huh?

Your more concened about Sartin and his ilk that your not looking out for the right people. Your unsuspecting members.

What about DRF coming on here today and tipping the place on its ear...huh? The copyright police. Hey DRF gets TONS and TONS of free play out here. Exposure 100 other companies would love. Buddha was only trying to get a discussion on PARS going. I woulda told DRF to call their Lawyer. Thats me. I might suggest that even a more laid back fellow like you might have sent DRF a note saying...

Your family of products gets a lot of free play on my Board. A board that contains some of the most astute players on the net. If one of my guys is simply conversing about a column and uses a column he paid for as the basis to start the conversation... is that something you really want start trouble about? Leave my guys be if they're simply talking. By following the "letter of the law" you violated the "spirit of the law". Now you got Buddha apologizing to you and DRF. Piss me off to see Buddha mea culpa to you two today.


Buddha apologizies while SARTIN steals.





Here's a quote for Barry Meadows on another subject...


You've been lied to.

By system-sellers who make up the wildest stories
imaginable. By racing authors who say they've made a
fortune gambling when the truth is they're $5 bettors.
By seminar speakers whose "advanced degree" was bought at
a diploma mill. By newsletter publishers who falsify
their alleged "tests" on systems and methods, so you
have no idea what's good and what's not until you've
already spent your hard-earned money.

Rest assured he was speaking about some of our Illustrious members. They're out there. They love to see things like our interboard and the ridersup and the Toga GetAway. They are ringing thier hands with glee when they see us enjoying our sport as Fans and Players. Because they know...in that group are the SUCKERS they need to beat..... to eat.

Its 4:20 am and I need to go to work. But when I have time tonight or tommorrow I'll get to them.

I'm tired of reading all the bullshit. I hung at Suffolk Downs for 20 years. I see these guys coming before they put they're shoes on the morning. Between the industry people spewing the party line or stroking each other to the "sellers" winking at each other. They know who each other is depsite the user ID.
I know who they are too. and what they are about.. and soon , so shall everyone else.

[GameTheory]

Suff --

Like it or not, if you post certain things on a public forum (accusations, etc.) even if they are true (but without hard evidence, which cannot really be given on an internet board), you are creating potential legal liability issues for your host, PA. And if he does nothing in terms of moderation, that very fact can be brought against him later. Are you offering to pay for PA's lawyers and any judgements brought against him for something you wrote?

With regards to DRF, once again telling DRF to "call their lawyer" would be inviting all the wrong sort of trouble on your host. Because they WILL call their lawyer (and they should), and their lawyer will contact PA. Most newspapers have no problem with people posting articles on forums as long people post a link to the article as well. But posting the full text of subscriber-only (i.e. non-free articles) is a definite no-no and Mark rightly asked people not to do that, and PA rightly edited it out. You have never seen Mark complain out a regular news article being posted.

No one likes "snakes" and I wouldn't mind if PA simply booted a number of people around here. But stirring up trouble where PA is going to take the heat for something you did is not the way to go...

[The Hawk]

***DISCLAIMER***I guess I'm more of a lurker than anything, and I have no idea where I stand with Suff, but....


I have to agree with the gist of what he's saying. Those of us who have enjoyed reading horse racing message boards over the years have seen several deteriorate to the point where we stopped going there, because wading through all that sh*t before getting to something interesting or helpful wasn't worth it. Obviously, he's a guy who cares deeply about the board and a lot of members here and is trying to keep this boar -- a treasure, in my opinion -- from going the same way. It's not all that bad now, in my opinion, because of guys like Suff who weed out the rodents and expose them, but without you guys doing that it could deteroriate.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by Suff
But no more PM's telling me lay off certain guys and certain topics.[/i]

Please reprint publicly the notes where I specifically said to LAY OFF of someone. I can't remember saying this....if I did, I'd like to be reminded of it.


Sartin.. how the hell can you delete my post about Walter Case hitting the bottle because it was unsubstaniated, then leave SARTIN stuff up?

I deleted your post because it was THE FIRST ONE OF ITS KIND REGARDING WALTER CASE, and AT THE TIME, I was NOT FAMILIAR WITH HIS PUBLIC DRUG HISTORY. I'm not gonna suffer any legal action because of what you or anyone else writes if I can help it. ONCE I ESTABLISHED THAT WALTER CASE HAD A PUBLIC HISTORY OF ABUSE, I let future notes about it stay.

I TALKED TO YOU ABOUT THIS OVER THE PHONE. DO YOU NOT REMEMBER OUR CONVERSATION?


What are you doing leaving SARTIN Posts up. Why don't you show some BALLS and LEADERSHIP and ask the guys who got beat to send you thier names.. then e-mail or call Sartin and say...

I leave them up because there is no reason to take them down. My call, end of story.

Even a Dislaimer...saying people have negative and costly experiences with the SARTIN sales program? Huh?

You can find someone who has had negative and costly experiences with EVERY COMMERICAL INSTITUTION IN THE WORLD!!!

Your more concened about Sartin and his ilk that your not looking out for the right people. Your unsuspecting members.

I guess I give the members of this board a little more credit than you do.

What about DRF coming on here today and tipping the place on its ear...huh? The copyright police. Hey DRF gets TONS and TONS of free play out here. Exposure 100 other companies would love. Buddha was only trying to get a discussion on PARS going. I woulda told DRF to call their Lawyer. Thats me. I might suggest that even a more laid back fellow like you might have sent DRF a note saying...

See Game Theory's reply to you on this....it's perfect.

Now you got Buddha apologizing to you and DRF. Piss me off to see Buddha mea culpa to you two today.

I never asked for an apology and never expected one. If you're pissed off, I can't help that....


Here's a quote for Barry Meadows on another subject...

Rest assured he was speaking about some of our Illustrious members. They're out there. They love to see things like our interboard and the ridersup and the Toga GetAway. They are ringing thier hands with glee when they see us enjoying our sport as Fans and Players. Because they know...in that group are the SUCKERS they need to beat..... to eat.

So I guess Barry gets a pass from you? He's in the business of selling as well, or didn't you know?

Also, I don't see you complaining about how I let Nathan from ThoroTech post about his software on here. How come he's not part of your rant? Oh yeah, that's right, cause you like his program....a bit hypocritical of you, don't you think?

Its 4:20 am and I need to go to work. But when I have time tonight or tommorrow I'll get to them.

Gee, I'm getting all tingly thinking about what's to come....can't wait.

[jjgold]

settle down on the flaming

Thanks

[pat]

From reading these posts i think its time for you computer jockeys to begin to step outside your homes and away from those monitors because it appears most of you have to much pent up energy, maybe you can get away from those pcs and watch some live racing where you can actually smell horseshit and not everyone elses bullshit

[jjgold]

Patty one thing,

To be successful in racing you must be in front of a computer at least 8 hours per day

All the pros do

Good Luck Guy with your wagers

[John]

What a shame this post is........You could not meet two better guys than Mike PA and Mike SUff. At Saratoga last year the two of them were as close as Brothers. I thought then it was a friendship made in heaven to last a life time.

come on you two, lets find away to patch this up. I am fond of both of you and know that many members feel the same as I do.

Suff, I know you really like Mike . Mike, I know you are really think A lot of Suff.

Please,For all of us. don't let it end this way.

John

[kingfin66]

Originally posted by rocajack
... come on you two, lets find away to patch this up. I am fond of both of you and know that many members feel the same as I do.

Suff, I know you really like Mike . Mike, I know you are really think A lot of Suff.

Please,For all of us. don't let it end this way.

John

Now that is a voice of reason that should definitely be heeded. Well said Rocajack. Beyond that $0.02, I am butting out.

[highnote]

Originally posted by jjgold
Patty one thing,

To be successful in racing you must be in front of a computer at least 8 hours per day

All the pros do

Good Luck Guy with your wagers

Respectfully, I disagree somewhat. Mostly you're right. It does take hard work doing research. However, a good friend of mine made a lot of money just observing the horses in the paddock from week to week. He only bet the top quality horses, so he only needed to go to the track on Sat and Sun. He didn't bet often, but he bet alot. When he observed a horse rounding into form and was a square price on the board he sent it in. He didn't need a stack of computer printouts to tell him that.

The key to his success was recognizing when certain handicapping factors had intrinsic value and then knowing how to interpret them using fundamental handicapping logic in a way that no one else was doing.

That's sort of an abstract way of saying he was a paddock handicapper who could understand how to correlate his visual impressions of a horse with the printed past performances.

The point is, he didn't need a computer. Although he would look up Dosage profiles on chef-de-race.com. :)

[Amazin]

Tenzin quote from "wmd" thread in off topic in behalf of Derek" he's mad at the PA here who always "picks on me" "

Pa quote to Secretariat in the off topic thread"another political question"Ahhh, it's always just a joke, isn't it?

To VS in the same thread

Well, I'll let you in on a little secret. In that VetScratch thread, **I** wasn't joking!!

regarding your Woodward and Bernstein fetish.

To Lousycapper II Pa saidI originally removed you because.....

God knows what he thinks of me and there are others I've probably missed.And now his Saratoga buddy Suff.Tsk.Tsk. PA. Tsk Tsk.

[Tom]

Originally posted by Amazin

God knows what he thinks of me and there are others I've probably missed.And now his Saratoga buddy Suff.Tsk.Tsk. PA. Tsk Tsk.

Is there a point here other than to put down our host, who pays the bills, puts up with a lot of crap, and allows many people to "vent" within reason? The guy who hosted an inter-board contest that was enjoyed by many, many people. What's your point, A? What is your agenda other than to p*ss people off, put people down, and whine about everyone and anyone who doesn't agree with your view of the world?
We are all guests here, and we visit here at PA's pleasure. Basic manners are not a lot to ask of guests. Guess they don't teach those in those liberal schools out west, eh?

[Steve 'StatMan']

I've really enjoyed this website, esp. great info from Suff, PA, GameTheory, Tom, Andicap, and many others that I'm likely forgetting, sorry.

I recently strayed into the Off Topic forums, where even more people tend to hang out. Reading most of the political arguments, I can see where the heated emotions from some of the political discussions have spilled into the other areas, and it seems to me it is straining relationships and causing problems in other areas. Maybe I'm not the only one who's realizing this, but I think it is much easier to appreciate people as handicappers, statisticians, developers, etc., when I know NOTHING about their politics.

As for me, I'm going to try to appreciate everyone on their racing related discussions, and try to limit my Off Topic viewing for non-political items like Pete Rose in the HOF, Other Sports, PC/Programming related issues, etc.

I sure hope folks like Suff and others with great handicapping/racing/technical experience to share don't start drifting away.

And once again, my thanks to PA and his great helper Suff for that wonderful InterForum Tournament last spring, that first attracted me to this great website!

[shanta]

i just read your post about walter case and fixing races. i am not so naive to say that he NEVER threw a race ok? but i will tell you that he was approached by some people at yonkers years back after a card had ended. these "people" requested that he start "going dead" in some races cause he must have been busting up their numbers. his reply was "f you i go dead for nobody". as for his personal demons i hope he can straightened out. Sorry P.A. i know this is off topic.

Richie

[trying2win]

Originally posted by Tom
Is there a point here other than to put down our host, who pays the bills, puts up with a lot of crap, and allows many people to "vent" within reason? The guy who hosted an inter-board contest that was enjoyed by many, many people. What's your point, A? What is your agenda other than to p*ss people off, put people down, and whine about everyone and anyone who doesn't agree with your view of the world?
We are all guests here, and we visit here at PA's pleasure. Basic manners are not a lot to ask of guests. Guess they don't teach those in those liberal schools out west, eh?

Tom,

Well said.


Regards,

T2W

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by Suff
Take care of your guys... Not someone who made an impression in horse racing 20 years ago.
Your editing my stuff while a proven beat gets replayed on the board? Where's the principles? Some sense of responsibity to the NEW member or Horse player.

Who's gonna take care of ME? Who's going to make sure people don't curse? Who's gonna make sure people don't make baseless accusations of race fixing or drug use or software that is supposedly a scam...stuff that could get me sued (potentially)???

Who's going to make sure people don't repost copyrighted material without even so much as giving the original author credit???

Who's looking out of ME? Who's making sure all the rules in the terms of service of this board are being followed??

Certainly not many of the members of this board. They just post what they want, when they want, and they leave it up to me to either be the good cop or bad cop.

You can't win around this place. You can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time.

I just do my best, and if that's not good enough, then I don't know what else to do.

But I'll tell you one thing. I'm not going to get sucked anymore into this discussion. As a matter of fact, I'm going to close this thread shortly because it has veered considerably off topic. That's my job as moderator. As thankless a task as it may be.

[Amazin]

Tom asks"s there a point here other than to put down our host..."

That's your perception. Except for the Tsk part,(which I'm not sure you get),none of the quotes are from me. They are all Pa's quotes or the one Tenzin quote who is quoting Derek. If I am guilty of something,it is that I am merely pointing out a recent pattern here. It's not my pattern.So if you consider the pattern negative,tell it to the source cause I didn't make it.

[VetScratch]

PA,

I can't remember if a poster's membership agreement was presented when I joined, but something like the Slate Magazine posting rules for members of The Fray message board might be a good thing to implement.

Basically, many other boards require members to agree that the service is merely the blackboard while the members are the publishers. I think this kind of disclaimer, as it specifically applies to electronic message boards, might be worth researching to see if it has sufficient legal merit to give you better peace of mind.

Others seem to be hanging their hats on such disclaimers, and it is certainly a thankless task to patrol every thread that pops up.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by VetScratch
PA,

I can't remember if a poster's membership agreement was presented when I joined,

You make me laugh....again! You remember EVERYTHING, and there certainly is/was a membership agreement (it was in full display before you hit the AGREE button)....let me repost it for you here:


Registration to this forum is free! We do insist that you abide by the rules and policies detailed below. If you agree to the terms, please press the Agree button at the end of the page.

Although the administrators and moderators of PaceAdvantage.Com will attempt to keep all objectionable messages off this forum, it is impossible for us to review all messages. All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of PaceAdvantage.Com or Jelsoft Enterprises Limited (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message.

By clicking the Agree button, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-orientated, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

Unpaid advertising of any kind is not allowed on the message boards without PRIOR consent. By clicking the Agree button, you warrant that you will not post any advertising for any third-party commercial ventures, without the express written consent of PaceAdvantage.Com.

The owners of PaceAdvantage.Com have the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason.


Thanks for caring.

[Foolish Pleasure]

Do you want to win?

I dunno, you know me now for years,
what do you think?:D

[Larry Hamilton]

The last time you were in here, you continued a thread about the COST of the DRF--As if someone was forcing you to buy it. Thru the magic of made-up facts you ascertained that they were charging 3 times their value.

Are you in here to win? If your history is any prediction of your future conduct, you are in here to make trouble--again.

[jjgold]

Most posters a degenrate gamblers that will steal from their own Mothers to gamble with.

Kind of sad but true.

Horseplayers are probably the worst type of gamblers and thieves compared to any other form of gamblng.

[Foolish Pleasure]

Hey Larry,

like paying 5X the going rate for newsprint?

like giving a monopolist a grand a year when a grand was actually some cash?

obviously, else why would something like that still be ingrained in your head?

[Suff]

I disagree with some ways Mike runs the board...sometimes..

Mike and I are friendly. still.

I said some things... he said some things. Thats the end.

I say this. Its not software sellers I'm talking about exclusively...

How about camptown who pitch's here all the time? He's posted more sales scams here in the last year than anyone..

And many many more post under the guise of a fan or player...but post links to a commercial venture they have an interest in..

As far as Nathan.. i was under the impression he checked with your first... Thats a class move by him..and by mike. I am only using/betting with Equisim on about 3 races a weekend right now.. I'm handicapping about 20 races with it in conjunction with my "old" methods". I've only spoke with Nathan once. I have no idea if I like equisim... actually. I Think I will.

Me..?

I'm going to Iraq (95%). I have an interview with a representative of the State Department at noon Tommorrow. I have a criminal record...that requires a waiver for both my Emergency Passport and my security level (civilian). I've been offered a Job as a construction manager. It involves building a BASE CAMP for the ARMY Corp of Engineers...(60-75 day build). Then I'd be the Camp Manager in terms of bringing Construction Supplys in and out of the camp to support area Power Plant Projects...and perhaps a waste water treatment plant. (TBA).
I'd also be responsible all the supplys.(logistics).. like RADAR from MASH I suppose. The money is rich.

This isn't the Job I want... That BID is awarded this Friday. Its a Power Plant project. And there is a Job in that Package that I qualify for... I have that JOB if either 2 of 8 Primes's get it....so I'm waiting 2 weeks to hear on that.

FYI.. I just completed work on the Largest LNG/Co-Gen power plant in the Country... A 1000 MW. No joke.
I've also been involved in Building the Largest Cable Stayed Bridge in the world. The Bunker Hill Bridge. Also I have over 80 Lines Miles of subterranean Tunnel experience...All at supervisory levels... They aint hiring Nail bangers.

I've been busy as I had to have a Physical and a dental exam (they are requiring me to get two teeth extracted prior to going) No Dental Treatment while on assignment.

Its been a tough week on my stress level as this challange has kept me awake. I gotta go into the TIP ONIELL Federal Building and see this guy tommorrow... Govt Bureacrats and me generally don't jive so I'm nervous about that..
I gotta get 2 teeth pulled Friday at 3... I have to get a round of shots on Tuesday...the offer I have in hand requires me to be in IRAQ on March 8th. 4 weeks PLus I've had to explain all this to people who think I'm making a Bad decision. Not easy stuff.

That stress probably contributed to my frustration with Mike.

Now I need to let it go. I have more important issues on my mind.

I apologize. Not for what I said.. but perhaps the tone and approach.

The R & R policy is ...every 90 days a 7 day trip to anywhere in the world from HEATHROW...economy class , 100% picked up..
I told them it was a Family matter , but no matter when I arrive I have to be back in NY the last week in August! Saratoga Baby!

[so.cal.fan]

Good luck, Suff.
We'll be thinking about you. Hope you can post on the board while you are there. I would really like to hear about your impressions there.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Good Luck Suff! Hope it all works the best way for you. And if you end up in Iraq, that you all with you will be safe.

[Suff]

Originally posted by so.cal.fan
Good luck, Suff.
We'll be thinking about you. Hope you can post on the board while you are there. I would really like to hear about your impressions there.

seeing as I'm in construction... U think I'm going to have any problems making a Nice www.paceadvantage.com sign and Hoisting it up over my camp? Lol... I'll send the PIC!

[highnote]

Suff,
Sounds like your going to have an incredible experience. Iraq, that is -- not having teeth pulled.

Good luck!

Regards,
John Swetye

[so.cal.fan]

<seeing as I'm in construction... U think I'm going to have any problems making a Nice www.paceadvantage.com sign and Hoisting it up over my camp? Lol... I'll send the PIC!>



We'll all be looking forward to that!:)
I'll be expecting some good stories from you as well!;)

[PaceAdvantage]

Jesus Suff, what an undertaking. I'll tell you this, you never, ever, EVER fail to surprise me.

I wish you well and hope you land the gig. If nothing else, you'll be loaded with stories to tell at Saratoga in August!

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by Suff
As far as Nathan.. i was under the impression he checked with your first... Thats a class move by him..and by mike. I am only using/betting with Equisim on about 3 races a weekend right now.. I'm handicapping about 20 races with it in conjunction with my "old" methods". I've only spoke with Nathan once. I have no idea if I like equisim... actually. I Think I will.


He always checks with me, as do many of the people who post commercial related stuff. I have absolutely no problem with Nathan...he even was nice enough to send me a copy of EquiSim 4.0, which I regret to say I haven't had a chance to use as of yet...

In any event, just because you see a commercial related post doesn't mean the person hasn't requested permission to post the stuff.

Many times, when people don't ask permission, I let it go anyway, because I'm still a softie at heart....

I don't mind a little commercial posting, because it lets me know what's out there as well as everyone else.

It's probably high time I created a vendor forum, and stick all that stuff there. Maybe it can replace the closed Suff Saratoga forum...

[highnote]

I think a vendor forum might be worth trying out on a test basis. If it goes well, keep it. If not, drop it. What's to lose, but a little time -- although, can you spare any? :)

[cato]

good luck on the interview, Suff!

Cato

[Gold Bay]

Vendor Forum great idea.I think it would also be resonable to charge a fee to the vendors.

[cj]

Suff,

You sound very apprehensive about the Iraq job. I would never tell someone what to do, you have to make up your own mind. I would say this, as it has served my well in life. Make a list of pros and cons. An actual, hand written list. Compare the two. Your decision will be made.

Shoot me your phone number (again!) in an email, I'd love to shoot the breeze for a few!

Best of luck buddy,
Craig

[eclecticapper]

Originally posted by Suff


...the offer I have in hand requires me to be in IRAQ on March 8th.

This must be because the inner dirt meet doesn't end until March 7th.

Good luck, Suff!

[John]

Here"s the Truth....

Forget about SUFF, going to IRAQ to build things.A cable bridge in IRAQ ? Like IRAQ needs bridges. SUFF is really a secret agent for the U.S.A sent to IRAQ to dig out those W.O.M.D and save Bush's Ass.

I can see the headlines now. "Construction Workers discovers Weapons of mass destruction." [ two days before the election.]

Go get em Suff.

[Suff]

Originally posted by rocajack
Here"s the Truth....

A cable bridge in IRAQ ? Like IRAQ needs bridges. Go get em Suff.

Every country would want one of these... but how many can I build in a lifetime Johhny?

http://www.bigdig.com/thtml/gw_crc.htm#bridge1
...and having been been to the ocean floor to sit the footings and to the top to cap it, 300 feet off the ocean surface... This is my baby,

[WINMANWIN]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Suff
[B]Every country would want one of these... but how many can I build in a lifetime Johhny?

WOW, Your not kidding, what a bridge, That tops them all I would think, simply amazing :eek:

[John]

Suff,

It is a beautiful piece of work.[ Bunker Hill Bridge ] You must be very proud.Everyone should come to Boston to see it. It only cost 100 millon.

[Suff]

Originally posted by rocajack
Suff,

. It only cost 100 millon.

NYRA got a small share......;)

[John]

Amen ...... to the above.