View Full Version : How to Checkmate THE RETHUGS
Boner and the sorry ass majority in the House will cave or....
http://s3.amazonaws.com/dk-production/images/14871/large/1120ckCOMIC-platinum-coin.png?1357743152
Be warned! :mad:
elysiantraveller
01-10-2013, 08:29 PM
Boner and the sorry ass majority in the House will cave or....
http://s3.amazonaws.com/dk-production/images/14871/large/1120ckCOMIC-platinum-coin.png?1357743152
Be warned! :mad:
Whats your honest take on this?... You're smart and I'm curious.
Whats your honest take on this?... You're smart and I'm curious.It looks like it is legal--or enough so it could not be blocked at first to prevent it from being used. Republicans will know this.
If I was Obama I would use it as a final bargaining chip. I don't think the republicans want to deal with public opinion if we default. They will be blamed. Because of various factors, the election, fiscal cliff deal and the general disarray of the repugs, psychologically Obama is already dealing from a position of strength. The trillion dollar coin introduces the "I will pull a crazy man maneuver" of uncertainty. Meaning just the public impression of the House repugs malingering and then Obama saving of us from default by being clever and resourceful-the coin-and then the repugs left looking like fools, will scare them down.
That;s my political take. Bottom line, I would use the option as a last resort and let the courts work it out later after avoiding yet another credit devaluation. You know my feelings of unnecessarily fear and trembling about the long term debt. Well that is only manageable if interest rates do not rise to much higher levels.
You know what we call that in the real world, hcap.....passing a bad check. You seem to be cut from the same low-integrity clith as your boy Obama.
elysiantraveller
01-10-2013, 10:14 PM
It looks like it is legal--or enough so it could not be blocked at first to prevent it from being used. Republicans will know this.
If I was Obama I would use it as a final bargaining chip. I don't think the republicans want to deal with public opinion if we default. They will be blamed. Because of various factors, the election, fiscal cliff deal and the general disarray of the repugs, psychologically Obama is already dealing from a position of strength. The trillion dollar coin introduces the "I will pull a crazy man maneuver" of uncertainty. Meaning just the public impression of the House repugs malingering and then Obama saving of us from default by being clever and resourceful-the coin-and then the repugs left looking like fools, will scare them down.
That;s my political take. Bottom line, I would use the option as a last resort and let the courts work it out later after avoiding yet another credit devaluation. You know my feelings of unnecessarily fear and trembling about the long term debt. Well that is only manageable if interest rates do not rise to much higher levels.
Or you could just cut spending... which you have agreed to do anyway... :rolleyes:
Such a maneuver would guarantee a credit devaluation and the spiking of interest rates.
The fact that this is even being "considered" speaks volumes about the sheer stupidity we have in office...
OntheRail
01-10-2013, 10:18 PM
a tiny section in the U.S. code that allows the Treasury secretary to "mint and issue platinum bullion coins and proof platinum coins" of a size and denomination of "the secretary's discretion." This is mainly for commemorative coins,
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/01/10/legend-trillion-dollar-coin-grows-as-white-house-declines-to-rule-it-out/#ixzz2HdFeJ5gZ
So hcap your OK with Obama turning the US into the Danbary Mint... Order your 16... no 18 coin set today just pay separate shipping and handling on each coin. :rolleyes:
Obamanomics...If you have a leak in your bucket just cut it out... that'll fix it... but if for some reason it still leaks cut that one out... soon you'll have handle on a hole bucket... :bang:
You know what we call that in the real world, hcap.....passing a bad check. You seem to be cut from the same low-integrity clith as your boy Obama.
Low integrity? How many posts have you made on company time today? 100, 200?
Don't be shy :lol: :lol: :lol:
Passing bad checks is not legal. The trillion dollar coin apparently is.
Will it set off a court battle? Of course, but it will shut up retugs plans to hold the economy hostage----AGAIN.
Let the courts work out who is acting unconstitutionally. But for now it is a fix that works to avoid republican default bull.
Representative Jerrold Nadler, Democrat of New York, signed on to the trillion-dollar coin plan, telling Capital New York: “It sounds silly but it’s absolutely legal. And it would normally not be proper to consider such a thing, except when you’re faced with blackmail to destroy the country’s economy, you have to consider things.”
Or you could just cut spending... which you have agreed to do anyway... :rolleyes:
Such a maneuver would guarantee a credit devaluation and the spiking of interest rates.
The fact that this is even being "considered" speaks volumes about the sheer stupidity we have in office...Spending has been cut. Just not enough to satisfy the republicans who want to reign in the poor and middle class on "entitlements"
Why would it prompt a devaluation? We do know a default definitely would.
1-Have you heard about the trillion dollar platinum coin? Obama calls it "change he can believe in."
2-Pres Obama: "When I said there would be no negotiation on the debt ceiling, well I mint it."
3-The coin could feature a picture of a pyramid with an eyeball on top saying "What debt ceiling? I don't see it" and the slogan "E Pluribus Unum Trillion."
elysiantraveller
01-10-2013, 10:42 PM
Spending has been cut. Just not enough to satisfy the republicans who want to reign in the poor and middle class on "entitlements"
Why would it prompt a devaluation? We do know a default definitely would.
Because your "fiscal" solution is to willingly devalue your currency by the tune of $1 Trillion dollars. If the immediate act of creating $1 trillion dollars didn't cause the devaluation the cascading effect of increased interest rates would. Who in the !@#$ would want to buy our notes at next to nothing when we are so willing to throw away the value of our currency?...
The only solution is meaningful deficit reduction... you keep saying this has happened... I'm asking where? I'm not one of these "debt doomsday" people but we simply can't keep tacking on trillion dollar deficits every year. Entitlements need to be adjusted.
I find it highly hypocritical that you are quick to point out wall street bankers making something out of nothing but its okay when your CinC decides to do it.
This wouldn't be a solution to the problem it would exacerbate it.
But hey looking long term isn't really part of the Democrat platform these days.... :rolleyes:
OntheRail
01-10-2013, 10:55 PM
1-Have you heard about the trillion dollar platinum coin? Obama calls it "change he can believe in."
2-Pres Obama: "When I said there would be no negotiation on the debt ceiling, well I mint it."
3-The coin could feature a picture of a pyramid with an eyeball on top saying "What debt ceiling? I don't see it" and the slogan "E Pluribus Unum Trillion."
And it won't be worth the metal it's plated with... so fixes nothing. An IOU on IOU's backed by a band of shopaholic Dem's. Yep that's the ticket... Rupees here we come.. :rolleyes:.
Because your "fiscal" solution is to willingly devalue your currency by the tune of $1 Trillion dollars. If the immediate act of creating $1 trillion dollars didn't cause the devaluation the cascading effect of increased interest rates would. Who in the !@#$ would want to buy our notes at next to nothing when we are so willing to throw away the value of our currency?...
The only solution is meaningful deficit reduction... you keep saying this has happened... I'm asking where? I'm not one of these "debt doomsday" people but we simply can't keep tacking on trillion dollar deficits every year. Entitlements need to be adjusted.
I find it highly hypocritical that you are quick to point out wall street bankers making something out of nothing but its okay when your CinC decides to do it.
This wouldn't be a solution to the problem it would exacerbate it.
But hey looking long term isn't really part of the Democrat platform these days.... :rolleyes:Debt reduction under Obama:
From the "Rich still aren't paying their fair share" thread post#135
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/01/chart-day-deficit-reduction-so-far-24-trillion
I don't get your objection to paying bills that congress has already authorized. I would argue refusing to pay back loans are the main reason for credit devaluation. Wouldn't you?
As far as the printing "money argument". We are really printing a "means" to payoff our creditors. The coin is not going into general circulation funds, and unless the republicans block the promissory value of the coin it will be accepted as US payments and will allay fears this time of not getting paid back..
hcap has only 4 more pieces and his Civil War Chess Set is complete!
And it won't be worth the metal it's plated with... so fixes nothing. An IOU on IOU's backed by a band of shopaholic Dem's. Yep that's the ticket... Rupees here we come.. :rolleyes:.It will be deposited into the US Treasury and will NOT be a "fake" ornamental or commemorative coin
Why is paying the bills on what has already been authorized by congress inflationary? You may argue that there is no gold standard anymore, but like any other currency today, currency is only as good as the country that issues it .
Default bad. Paying bills good
It will be deposited into the US Treasury and will NOT be a "fake" ornamental or commemorative coin
Just like a bad check.
Reality is just out of reach to you, isn't it?:lol:
eGlx48D9DsI
elysiantraveller
01-10-2013, 11:30 PM
Debt reduction under Obama:
From the "Rich still aren't paying their fair share" thread post#135
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/01/chart-day-deficit-reduction-so-far-24-trillion
I don't get your objection to paying bills that congress has already authorized. I would argue refusing to pay back loans are the main reason for credit devaluation. Wouldn't you?
I agree with congress needing to pay its bills but if that's "deficit reduction" by your mark its not meeting the requirements of Simpson/Bowles, S&P, Moody's, or Fitch because all are poised for yet another downgrade if spending isn't cut. CBO estimates are for trillion dollar deficits for years to come... but hey... who is keeping score right?
As far as the printing "money argument". We are really printing a "means" to payoff our creditors. The coin is not going into general circulation funds, and unless the republicans block the promissory value of the coin it will be accepted as US payments and will allay fears this time of not getting paid back..
Explain to me how government spending exists in this vacuum you are describing? You always argue that government spending realizes itself in economic growth so this is quite the turnabout for you...
Interesting rundown on minting the coin, including how to deal with the so called inflationary effects which are not as definite as a true default..
http://money.cnn.com/2013/01/09/news/economy/platinum-coin-debt-ceiling/
Donald Marron....
1. A legal loophole gives the Treasury Secretary apparently unlimited authority to mint platinum coins.
Treasury is forbidden from printing money to cover government deficits. Treasury must issue debt, while the Federal Reserve independently controls our nation's monetary printing press.
That is exactly as it should be. But there is an arcane exception for platinum coins. To serve coin collectors, Treasury can issue platinum coins of any denomination. That creates an intriguing loophole: Treasury could bypass the collector market and mint a $1 trillion platinum coin. By depositing it at the Federal Reserve, Treasury could keep paying bills after we've fully exhausted our borrowing limit.
2. Most observers think this is a terrible idea, but the legal arguments against it are weak at best.
I'm no lawyer, but the legal arguments seem wholly unconvincing. The language of the statute is clear, and in any case, the executive branch gets away with expansive actions in extreme times. During the financial crisis, for example, Treasury aggressively interpreted its authorities in order to bail out GM and Chrysler and to backstop money market funds. If default became a real possibility, the same expansiveness could easily justify a platinum coin.
3. The economic arguments against the coin are stronger but manageable.
There's a good reason that Treasury is forbidden from printing money to pay our debts: inflation. Many economies have been ruined when profligate governments turned to printing money. But minting the platinum coin needn't mean monetizing our debt. The Federal Reserve has ample ability to offset any inflationary impact by selling some of the trillions in Treasury securities it already owns. As long as the Fed does its job, inflation would not be a risk.
4. The best arguments against the platinum coin involve image and politics.
Minting a $1 trillion coin sounds like the plot of a Simpsons episode or an Austin Powers sequel. It lacks dignity. And despite modern cynicism, that means something.
It would also be premature. Obama and the Republican and Democratic members of Congress have roughly two months to strike a debt limit deal. There is no reason to short-circuit that process, as painful as it may be, with preemptive currency minting as the now-famous #MintTheCoin petition to the White House suggests.
Further
http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21569413-crackpot-idea-circumvent-americas-debt-ceiling-gains-currency-toss-coin
Wacky though it sounds, the proposal raises intriguing monetary-policy questions. Ordinarily the Federal Reserve purchases coins from the Treasury to meet demand from commercial banks, and pays for them by printing money that it then deposits in the Treasury’s accounts at the Fed. A $1 trillion coin would use the same mechanism on a vastly bigger scale. In economic terms the Fed’s purchase would resemble “quantitative easing”, in which it prints money to buy bonds.
Monetarists would fret that creating $1 trillion of new money would spur inflation, but those fears are misplaced. Unlike bank notes, which are liabilities of the Fed and thus part of the monetary base, coins are liabilities of the Treasury. The money the Fed creates to pay for the coins does not become part of the monetary base until the Treasury spends it, and it ends up in a commercial bank’s reserves at the Fed. The monetary base could eventually expand by $1 trillion in this way. But because the Fed has paid interest on reserves since 2008, it would retain control of interest rates and therefore of inflation.
Apart from circumventing the debt ceiling, there might be other practical benefits. Gary Gorton, an economist at Yale, says issuing the coins in smaller denominations of, say, $50m could provide companies with a risk-free alternative to current accounts, easing the financial system’s shortage of safe assets.
The bigger problem is political.
a tiny section in the U.S. code that allows the Treasury secretary to "mint and issue platinum bullion coins and proof platinum coins" of a size and denomination of "the secretary's discretion." This is mainly for commemorative coins,
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201.../#ixzz2HdFeJ5gZV
So hcap your OK with Obama turning the US into the Danbary Mint... Order your 16... no 18 coin set today just pay separate shipping and handling on each coin. :rolleyes:
Obamanomics...If you have a leak in your bucket just cut it out... that'll fix it... but if for some reason it still leaks cut that one out... soon you'll have handle on a hole bucket... :bang:
How many timers have I warned you about Fox News??
http://media.salon.com/2013/01/Screen-Shot-2013-01-10-at-4.35.34-PM.png
:cool:
And....
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-03/why-we-must-go-off-the-platinum-coin-cliff.html
If Republicans start issuing a list of demands that must be met before they will raise the debt ceiling, Obama should simply say that he will issue platinum coins as necessary to pay government bills if he cannot borrow. But, to avoid causing long-term inflation expectations to skyrocket, he should pledge that he will have the Treasury issue enough bonds to buy back all the newly issued currency as soon as it is allowed to do so.
And then he should offer to sign a bill revoking his authority to issue platinum coins -- so long as that bill also abolishes the debt ceiling. The executive branch will give up its unwarranted power to print if the legislative branch will give up its unwarranted restriction on borrowing to cover already appropriated obligations.
OOPS! It's not only Fox but it is also--- The National Republican Campaign Committee warning that "The amount of platinum needed to mint a coin worth $1 trillion would sink the Titanic."
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BALXBqACMAEUf0f.jpg
Dear "Bank of America:" (enter your creditors' name here......)
As a lender to my small business, you should be the first to know of a decision I’ve decided to take. It wasn’t easy, and I’ve given it a lot of thought, but now I’m convinced it’s the right course of action. I won’t be making my next monthly payment.
It is true that I have already ordered shipments of equipment and materials using the funds I’ve borrowed from you. It is also true that I have adopted a pricing policy that’s designed to increase market share at the expense of current cash flow. The result of these choices is that my financial obligations will exceed my revenues for an extended period of time.
I have a line of credit that can cover this shortfall; we discussed it at length in our meeting last month. I appreciate your willingness to finance it at a negative real interest rate. But I now believe that it is immoral for me to increase my debt, which could be a burden on my children and grandchildren. As a result, I have imposed a debt limit on myself—a limit which I refuse to raise.
I’m sure you can understand the sound principles on which this choice is based: taking on more debt is evil. That’s why I have chosen instead to default on your loan, as well as withhold wages I’ve promised to pay to my workers. Please support me in this virtuous undertaking.
Sincerely yours....(All righties sign here :) ).
rastajenk
01-11-2013, 06:57 AM
Why stop at a trillion, though? If they're going to do it, make it worthwhile. Protect our children's future by making it a 10-tril unit. Here's who should be on it.
http://th03.deviantart.net/fs70/200H/i/2010/044/9/1/Einstein_by_valentinasolis.jpg
It's all relative.
Look here, hcap.
I we are going to talk about limiting the size of clips and the number of bullets our guns can have, then I insist we address you and mostie and your rapid-fire assault posting.
4 in a row.......the old juices are boiling over, huh?:lol::lol::lol:
Just how many stupid ideas can you fall in line behind at once?
The deficit if good, Obama cut spending, California balanced the budget, mint trillion dollar coins......what's next, swing on a star, bring moonbeams home in a jar? :lol::lol::lol:
Why stop at a trillion, though? If they're going to do it, make it worthwhile. Protect our children's future by making it a 10-tril unit. Here's who should be on it.
http://th03.deviantart.net/fs70/200H/i/2010/044/9/1/Einstein_by_valentinasolis.jpg
It's all relative.
Or, in memorium.....
johnhannibalsmith
01-11-2013, 10:31 AM
Who knew economics was so simple after all? The answer really is just to make more money when you need more. Just for kicks American style, one of the useless agencies should commission the construction of a big mechanical tree that actually dispenses the coins to the end-abuser upon minting.
I've been reading this idea for a while now in some of the more wacky online sources. It has yet to make sense to me.
newtothegame
01-11-2013, 11:21 AM
It will never make sense JHS because what the left is failing to realize is that in the end, whether it be a trillion dollar coin, or something else, it has to have VALUE. Just because it may say one trillion on the face means very little when no one wants it!!!
Actor
01-11-2013, 11:30 AM
OOPS! It's not only Fox but it is also--- The National Republican Campaign Committee warning that "The amount of platinum needed to mint a coin worth $1 trillion would sink the Titanic."A scare tactic. :rolleyes:
A coin has three values: bullion, monetary and numismatic.
Bullion value of a coin is simply the market value of the metal it's minted from.
Monetary value of a coin is the value the government places on it.
Numismatic value is the price a collector is willing to pay for it at auction.
The bullion value and the monetary value of a penny are approximately equal. A penny contains about one cent worth of metal. The numismatic value of a penny is probably zip.
I'd guess that the bullion value of a dollar bill is about one cent, the value of the special paper it's printed on. It's monetary value is one dollar of course.
The whole idea behind coinage, be it pennies, dimes, silver dollars or whatever, is that the monetary value exceed the bullion value, otherwise it's a commodity, not money. People will melt down the coins to increase the value. This is why pennies are now made of copper clad zinc instead of pure copper.
The trillion dollar coin would have a monetary value of one trillion dollars but could be any size, say the size of a dime. The idea of minting a coin with a bullion value of one trillion dollars is ridiculous because it assumes you have a trillion dollars worth of platinum to begin with. If that were the case you would not have to mint the coin. Just sell the platinum on the open market. But obviously the government does not have one trillion dollars worth of platinum laying around, else we would not have a problem.
Try pawning it off on Puten! :lol:
Valuist
01-11-2013, 11:41 AM
The trillion dollar coin would have a monetary value of one trillion dollars but could be any size, say the size of a dime. The idea of minting a coin with a bullion value of one trillion dollars is ridiculous because it assumes you have a trillion dollars worth of platinum to begin with. If that were the case you would not have to mint the coin. Just sell the platinum on the open market. But obviously the government does not have one trillion dollars worth of platinum laying around, else we would not have a problem.
Not nearly as ridiculous as wanting to further rapidly accelerate the already decreasing value of the dollar.
Why don't we just printout $10,000 bills and hand them out to everyone and then repeal Obama care?
OntheRail
01-11-2013, 02:21 PM
How many timers have I warned you about Fox News??
http://media.salon.com/2013/01/Screen-Shot-2013-01-10-at-4.35.34-PM.png
:cool:
And....
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-03/why-we-must-go-off-the-platinum-coin-cliff.html
Platinum is about 1630.00 per oz. ... you do the math for a weight on a trillion dollar coin.
Does the US Treasury have a trillion in Platinum laying around? Likely not.. So it's be a worthless token. That would cost Tax payers what... a few hundred grand to design... several more to make a die set and eight month to a year to complete. Past the window of need unless Obama gives an IOU for a coin that is really just a IOU backed by more IOU's.
Like I said the coin would not be worth the metal it was plated with... ;)
Also hcap... remember at some point the office will be held by another party do you want THEM to have precedence. I realize you'll blinding follow Obama and crew down a pit. But what would your view be if Bush wanted to pull this... you'd be frothing I'd say.
Actor
01-11-2013, 02:42 PM
Why don't we just printout $10,000 billsBecause that would require congressional approval. The Secretary of the Treasury already has authority to mint platinum coins.
and hand them out to everyoneBecause the idea is to pay existing bills.
and then repeal Obama care?Because, in case you didn't notice, Obama won the election. :lol:
Actor
01-11-2013, 02:51 PM
Platinum is about 1630.00 per oz. ... you do the math for a weight on a trillion dollar coin.
Does the US Treasury have a trillion in Platinum laying around? Likely not.. So it's be a worthless token. That would cost Tax payers what... a few hundred grand to design... several more to make a die set and eight month to a year to complete. Past the window of need unless Obama gives an IOU for a coin that is really just a IOU backed by more IOU's.
Like I said the coin would not be worth the metal it was plated with... ;)See post #26. :bang:
Also hcap... remember at some point the office will be held by another party do you want THEM to have precedence. I realize you'll blinding follow Obama and crew down a pit. But what would your view be if Bush wanted to pull this... you'd be frothing I'd say.A moot point since a G.O.P. congress would rubber stamp Bush's request for an increased in the debt ceiling. :bang:
Gentlemen, and I use the word LOOSELY, (Actor thank you) I posted a lot for your perusal. If you don't get it by now, you never will. However enough rethugs in congress will get it, and that is why my best guess is the rethugs will cave. They know Obama has got them by their platinum balls and therefore........
.... CHECIKMATE and game!
What do the repubs have to lose now?
There is nothing form them to gain by refusing to raise the ceiling.
The advantage now shifts to the right.
But post away...or should I say....COMpost away!
What do the repubs have to lose now?
There is nothing form them to gain by refusing to raise the ceiling.
The advantage now shifts to the right.
But post away...or should I say....COMpost away!
I get it!
Sort of like crazy Japanese kamikaze pilots sacrificing their lives for Ayn Rand? :)
Actor
01-11-2013, 05:23 PM
Not nearly as ridiculous as wanting to further rapidly accelerate the already decreasing value of the dollar.There are four possibilities:
Default on the debt.
Raise the debt ceiling.
Pay the bills and cite the 14th amendment.
Mint the coin.
Inflation wise all four have the same effect.
There are four possibilities:
Default on the debt.
Raise the debt ceiling.
Pay the bills and cite the 14th amendment.
Mint the coin.
Inflation wise all four have the same effect.I don't think so. There are ways that the "COIN" can be done to mitigate inflation.
Another discussion of the "Coin"
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/01/understanding-debt-ceiling-showdown-default-vs-default
....."This would have disastrous effects on financial markets, the economy, and our standing in the world. Yet Republicans are threatening to trigger this disaster unless they get spending cuts that they weren’t able to enact through normal, Constitutional means. Republicans go wild at this analogy, but it’s unavoidable. This is exactly like someone walking into a crowded room, announcing that he has a bomb strapped to his chest, and threatening to set that bomb off unless his demands are met."
OntheRail
01-11-2013, 09:09 PM
See post #26. :bang:
A moot point since a G.O.P. congress would rubber stamp Bush's request for an increased in the debt ceiling. :bang:
I view posting from last I had and move down... and reply when I feel like it. So I did not see post #26 till after I had wrote and posted. But why the fit... we seem to be saying the same damn thing.
As for G.O.P we'd not need to do this as they see the need to CUT SPENDING... so yes MOOT. Just pointing out the fact the hcap would not have the same cheerful gettieness to the idea. All in all it's a bad idea... from the most spendnificant President in History. ;)
OntheRail
01-11-2013, 09:22 PM
I don't think so. There are ways that the "CON" can be done to mitigate inflation.
FTFY.. ;)
Benny can only kneed the dough so much and it's as thin as he can beat it.
If they I mean Obama tries to pull the CON... I think you'll see the US's credit rating take a big hit.
fast4522
01-11-2013, 09:33 PM
Service the debt payment $30 Billion paid off the top, everyone else get in line. Screw everyone let the chopping block happen and bring this spending whore to its dry days.
ElKabong
01-11-2013, 10:57 PM
And it won't be worth the metal it's plated with... so fixes nothing. An IOU on IOU's backed by a band of shopaholic Dem's. Yep that's the ticket... Rupees here we come.. :rolleyes:.
The neo-Keynesians here on PA and elsewhere would disagree.
This nonsense we've put up with the past 4 years is unfortunate. We needed leadership willing to make sensible, real cuts in spending w/o cutting back on the truly needing folks. But the past 4 yrs have been nothing but politics, esp from the neo-Keynesians
so.cal.fan
01-11-2013, 11:08 PM
Keynesian economics has never worked, nor will it ever work for any length of time.
Socialism fails. "Social Justice" / previously known as "Marxism" fails.
We need to get back to the free market.
Sure, there will be some disruption at first, but in the long run, everyone, everyone will be better off and happier.
The neo-Keynesians here on PA and elsewhere would disagree.
This nonsense we've put up with the past 4 years is unfortunate. We needed leadership willing to make sensible, real cuts in spending w/o cutting back on the truly needing folks. But the past 4 yrs have been nothing but politics, esp from the neo-Keynesians
Well, another 4 years to go. Then probably 8 more with Hillary after Obama.. FDR knew a thing or two about Keynes that neither of you will ever admit into your tiny Ayn Rand universe.
elysiantraveller
01-11-2013, 11:52 PM
Gentlemen, and I use the word LOOSELY, (Actor thank you) I posted a lot for your perusal. If you don't get it by now, you never will. However enough rethugs in congress will get it, and that is why my best guess is the rethugs will cave. They know Obama has got them by their platinum balls and therefore........
.... CHECIKMATE and game!
...Or.... you could just agree to lower spending like you promised... :rolleyes:
Since you refuse to argue whether doing this would be detrimental to our long-term prosperity, it will be, here is another fact.
The major rating agencies have all gone on record that without something done to reduce spending they will continue to downgrade the rating of the United States.
Your "checkmate" is to essentially print $1 trillion dollars of more money to spend in one single action.
I really think with you its more about "sticking it" to Republicans than the actual prosperity of this country for future generations.
"I will print money until you submit" is a fabulous strategy to you?...
There is a reason why in the 1st reply on this thread I asked if you though this was a good idea... I actually had you pegged as a reasonably intelligent person and not just a drone... guess I was wrong.
You have not added anything since your last post. Same objections as last post. I believe all are dealt with by all the many articles I linked too.
And if I am sticking it to the rethugs what will they be dong to the country?
Mañana
elysiantraveller
01-12-2013, 12:07 AM
You have not added anything since your last post. Same objections as last post. I believe all are dealt with by all the many articles I linked too.
And if I am sticking it to the rethugs what will they be dong to the country?
Mañana
You haven't dealt with any... you talk about credit ratings like this will be the silver bullet.
They are going to downgrade the US if we don't cut spending... something your guy was for doing before he was against it.
Here... (http://www.cnbc.com/id/100349791)
...here... (http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/rick-newman/2013/01/03/what-will-cause-the-next-us-credit-downgrade)
...and here. (http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20130102-709501.html)
Then you say that the money isn't going to be circulated... do you even understand how this whole scheme works? We deposit a $1 Trillion dollar coin... which eventually we will have to pay for... to lower our deficit to $15.4 trillion so we can spend back up to the current limit. Where in the @#$% do you think the money goes? You are the king of Stimulus around here... c'mon don't be so daft.
Like I said you are nothing more than a partisan drone... I'm actually pretty disappointed.
They are going to downgrade the US if we don't cut spending... something your guy was for doing before he was against it.
From your links, credit devaluation could be avoided by not ONLY cutting spending, but by also raising revenues. The long term goal is lowering the national debt. Either or both will do.
....here.... (http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/rick-newman/2013/01/03/what-will-cause-the-next-us-credit-downgrade) ....Moody's wants to see spending cuts, and perhaps even more tax hikes, as part of a big budget deal in the first few months of 2013 that would convincingly improve the government's long-termfinances. "The debt trajectory resulting from this process is likely to determine whether the Aaa rating is returned to a stable outlook or downgradedAnd we know for sure that the knuckle dragging of the repugs ande refusal to agree to pay already contracted bills, which up until then (2011), was always done and debt ceiling raised, caused the last credit downgrade.
From your first link...
Moody's placed the U.S. credit rating on a negative outlook Aug. 3, 2011 when the outgoing Congress and the White House wrestled over a relatively routine measure of raising the debt ceiling to the point where the United States was on the brink of default before hammering out a deal.
That political impasse and near financial calamity prompted rival rating agency Standard & Poor's to take the unprecedented move of cutting the U.S. credit rating to AA-plus from AAA.
Then you say that the money isn't going to be circulated... do you even understand how this whole scheme works? We deposit a $1 Trillion dollar coin... which eventually we will have to pay for..
No it will not be circulated in the general fund. From post #18Monetarists would fret that creating $1 trillion of new money would spur inflation, but those fears are misplaced. Unlike bank notes, which are liabilities of the Fed and thus part of the monetary base, coins are liabilities of the Treasury. The money the Fed creates to pay for the coins does not become part of the monetary base until the Treasury spends it, and it ends up in a commercial bank’s reserves at the Fed. The monetary base could eventually expand by $1 trillion in this way. But because the Fed has paid interest on reserves since 2008, it would retain control of interest rates and therefore of inflation.
Of course Obama must promise to use the coin to pay bills not increase spending. "The Federal Reserve has ample ability to offset any inflationary impact by selling some of the trillions in Treasury securities it already owns. As long as the Fed does its job, inflation would not be a risk" We deposit a $1 Trillion dollar coin... which eventually we will have to pay for..We will have to pay for it no matter what. We and the congress have already agreed. They are old bills not new!
The meltdown continues.....winning an election was supposed to be so good, but it is so empty when your boy just keeps on failing and following Bush's lead - the OBAMA TAX CUTS.......what a slap in the face to a liberal!:lol::lol::lol:
The only meltdown will be the rethugs at the debt ceiling controversy.
Of course the Tea Partiers in the House could always shoot their way into the White House and take Obama hostage (second amendment patriots of course)
Why not? They are already taking the countries' finances hostage.
Someone has to be the adult in the room.
You just have no clue what the debt means to our future.
Someone has to be the adult in the room.
You just have no clue what the debt means to our future.I have already shown you wrong once on this thread. Of course you refuse to admit that rate of increase in spending under Obama is no worse than other Presidents. You refuse to even consider that most of the scare tactics by the pugs in the debate about national debt is used for political reasons by the pugs.
You are simply Froggy the Gremlin in an orangutan suit.
OntheRail
01-12-2013, 01:14 PM
I have already shown you wrong once on this thread. Of course you refuse to admit that rate of increase in spending under Obama is no worse than other Presidents. You refuse to even consider that most of the scare tactics by the pugs in the debate about national debt is used for political reasons by the pugs.
You are simply Froggy the Gremlin in an orangutan suit.
Get out your spy glass and look over this..
Snip it from one of the links.
Add it all up and Obama’s tab through his first three years, in real dollars, is $3.4 trillion in deficit spending. It is a truly jaw-dropping display of fiscal recklessness to rack up enough real (inflation-adjusted) deficit spending in just three years to dwarf our real (inflation-adjusted) deficit spending during all of World War II. Before Obama’s term, few likely would have believed it possible.
Hey Big Spender (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/the-facts-about-the-growth-of-spending-under-obama/2012/05/24/gJQAIJh6nU_blog.html)
More.. More... More (http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obama-s-deficit-spending-dwarfs-wwii-s_659919.html)
You can't admit Obama is out on a limb tossing money in the air like there is no tomorrow. :rolleyes:
The theoretical factChecker Kessler exaggerated
This is already covered by one of the links I posted on the "Rich still arent paying their fair share" thread.
There is a controversy about when to start counting the Obama budget in 2009., and how much is to blame on Bush. Traditionally we credit the first year of a new presidents budget on the previous president. However.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/may/23/facebook-posts/viral-facebook-post-says-barack-obama-has-lowest-s/
.. We think reasonable people can disagree on which president should be responsible for TARP spending, but to give the critics their say, we’ll include it in our alternative calculation. So, combining the fiscal 2009 costs for programs that are either clearly or arguably Obama’s -- the stimulus, the CHIP expansion, the incremental increase in appropriations over Bush’s level and TARP -- produces a shift from Bush to Obama of between $307 billion and $456 billion, based on the most reasonable estimates we’ve seen critics offer.
That’s quite a bit larger than Nutting’s $140 billion, but by our calculations, it would only raise Obama’s average annual spending increase from 1.4 percent to somewhere between 3.4 percent and 4.9 percent. That would place Obama either second from the bottom or third from the bottom out of the 10 presidents we rated, rather than last.
fast4522
01-12-2013, 04:32 PM
Someone has to be the adult in the room.
You just have no clue what the debt means to our future.
Degenerates care not about someone's future other than their own, most degenerates are very long in the tooth with few years left in life.
Looks like this discussion about the platinum coin is moot
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/12/obama-platinum-coin_n_2458379.html
WASHINGTON -- The U.S. Treasury Department will not mint a high-value platinum coin to avert the debt ceiling, according to an official statement from the Obama administration obtained by the Huffington Post on Saturday.
"Neither the Treasury Department nor the Federal Reserve believes that the law can or should be used to facilitate the production of platinum coins for the purpose of avoiding an increase in the debt limit," the statement reads.
Obama has never given any indication that he would be amenable to "the platinum option," but White House spokesman Jay Carney refused to rule it out in a press conference earlier this week.
:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:
elysiantraveller
01-12-2013, 04:50 PM
Looks like this discussion about the platinum coin is moot
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/12/obama-platinum-coin_n_2458379.html
WASHINGTON -- The U.S. Treasury Department will not mint a high-value platinum coin to avert the debt ceiling, according to an official statement from the Obama administration obtained by the Huffington Post on Saturday.
"Neither the Treasury Department nor the Federal Reserve believes that the law can or should be used to facilitate the production of platinum coins for the purpose of avoiding an increase in the debt limit," the statement reads.
Obama has never given any indication that he would be amenable to "the platinum option," but White House spokesman Jay Carney refused to rule it out in a press conference earlier this week.
:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:
The fact that you thought this was a good idea... :bang: :bang: :bang:
Monetizing the debt is the last resort before the collapse of a system. At least I learned a lot about you in this thread.
The fact that you thought this was a good idea... :bang: :bang: :bang:
Monetizing the debt is the last resort before the collapse of a system. At least I learned a lot about you in this thread.
Yeah, I did think it was a good political maneuver. And have not changed my mind. I only hope Obama has another back up. Democrats have learned something too. Repugs play hardball to the detriment of the country.
Repugs play hardball to the detriment of the country.
Bizarro speaks......through his arse, but he speaks.:lol:
Looks like Obamas' strategy is.......
http://www.salon.com/2013/01/14/obamas_debt_ceiling_strategy_hinges_on_gop_sanity/
"Obama is riding a wave of post-election popularity. Gallup shows him with a 56 percent approval rating, the highest in three years.
By contrast, Republicans are in the pits. John Boehner has a 21 percent approval and 60 percent disapproval. And Mitch McConnell’s is at 24 percent. Not even GOP voters seem to like Republican lawmakers in Washington, with 25 percent approving and 61 percent disapproving.
And Americans remember the summer of 2011 when the GOP held hostage the debt ceiling, bringing the nation close to a default and resulting in a credit-rating downgrade and financial turmoil that slowed the recovery. The haggling hurt the GOP more than it did Democrats or the president.
But Obama’s strategy depends on there being enough sane voices left in
the GOP to influence others. That’s far from clear"
Sanity??
Damn it! Use the COIN! :lol: :lol:
And Americans remember the summer of 2011 when the GOP held hostage the debt ceiling, bringing the nation close to a default and resulting in a credit-rating downgrade and financial turmoil that slowed the recovery. The haggling hurt the GOP more than it did Democrats or the president.
We also remember Obama voted against raising it previously.
We also remember Obama voted against raising it previously.I have already answered that on another thread.
You call that an answer?
Outright lying?
So our only recourse is to assume EVERYTHING he says is a lie for political advantage, right?
Like his entire speech yesterday - he is just posturing, not being honest.
Which was the point of that thread, thank you for verifying that.
BlueShoe
01-15-2013, 10:55 AM
Soon to be overheard at you local 7-11 and McDonalds, "Do you have change for a trillion, all I have on me are coins?"
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