VAT...value added tax?

[so.cal.fan]

Do any of you guys think a VAT is going to be introduced sooner than later?
I'm thinking it will.

[Robert Goren]

Do any of you guys think a VAT is going to be introduced sooner than later?
I'm thinking it will. Mostly no. There might be one on some items though. It is tricky because any thing made or has something in it made out the the US, might considered a tariff and that opens a can of worms and could lead to trade wars.

[Valuist]

Easiest way to simplify the tax code. Institute a VAT and eliminate all personal income taxes.

5% food
10% gas
20% all other purchases

If you consume a lot, you pay more. In good times, people will pay more. In bad times, people will pay less. No more worrying about loopholes, or illegal immigrants using our services for free. Everybody pays based on what they consume. THATS the fairest tax.

[so.cal.fan]

I like your reply, Valuist.
Of course, the crooks in Washington will probably never go for something that MAKES SENSE and IS FAIR. :bang:

[johnhannibalsmith]

Unless something changes drastically fairly soon, I think we will see it, albeit not for quite some time. The first stop is some sort of wealth tax where government is digging through your every transaction, account, itemized insurance policy, etc. to determine how much you actually have in addition to how much you actually earn. Once that is implemented and doesn't do anything beneficial, then the consumption tax will be a measure of last resort since it would hit everyone. You get taxed for making money, spending money, the value of what you spent it on, and finally, on not spending money. Of course, this is after you are taxed for being born (ACA) and prior to being taxed for dying (estate). Welcome to the promised land!

[Actor]

Easiest way to simplify the tax code. Institute a VAT and eliminate all personal income taxes.

5% food
10% gas
20% all other purchases

If you consume a lot, you pay more. In good times, people will pay more. In bad times, people will pay less. No more worrying about loopholes, or illegal immigrants using our services for free. Everybody pays based on what they consume. THATS the fairest tax.It's an unfair tax. You have to consume. If you lose your job you still have to eat, pay rent, etc. The last thing the unemployed need is a consumption tax.

Replacing income tax with a VAT would require a rate of 30% on all purchases. Read this book.

http://www.amazon.com/Fair-Tax-Book-Saying-Goodbye/dp/0060875496/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1357398742&sr=1-1&keywords=fair+tax

[so.cal.fan]

I'm sure people will still get unemployment insurance, Actor.
They will just have to not buy as much beer and smokes.

Tell us how our current system is "fair" ?

[Robert Goren]

VAT supporters seem to think there aren't going to be a lot of exceptions in it too. Just take a look at states sales taxes and see what has happened to them. The small ticket items get taxed , but a lot of the big tickets items aren't. In some states with sales taxes even new automobiles aren't taxed let alone things like yachts.

[Tom]

I'm sure people will still get unemployment insurance, Actor.
They will just have to not buy as much beer and smokes.

Tell us how our current system is "fair" ?

Yeah, guess who is not affected by he new tax?

GE
Warren Buffet

Of course Obama supporters will get waivers.

Let's try this - no taxes on anyone for one year, and see how the economy shakes out.

[soupan]

Yeah, guess who is not affected by he new tax?

GE
Warren Buffet

Of course Obama supporters will get waivers.

Let's try this - no taxes on anyone for one year, and see how the economy shakes out.

The next Aeroflot flight to Moscow leaves 9am tomorrow.

You can have din din with Vladimir Putin, Gerard Depardeau, and Bridgett Bardot and toast to how horrible the tax heavy West is.

Another Stoli, please. :lol:

[soupan]

I like your reply, Valuist.
Of course, the crooks in Washington will probably never go for something that MAKES SENSE and IS FAIR. :bang:

Yup, you guys really have it covered with a VAT.

Just curious, how does a place like, oh, NYC that has roughly an 8% sales tax, cope with a VAT?

Lets see, Umm I go out to eat to an average place in NYC, dinner is $25.00 + VAT+Sales tax+tip...

Oh yeah, that'll REALLY stimulate the economy. :rolleyes:

[elysiantraveller]

Yup, you guys really have it covered with a VAT.

Just curious, how does a place like, oh, NYC that has roughly an 8% sales tax, cope with a VAT?

Lets see, Umm I go out to eat to an average place in NYC, dinner is $25.00 + VAT+Sales tax+tip...

Oh yeah, that'll REALLY stimulate the economy. :rolleyes:

I'm not a fan of VAT either. Its unfair to the lower class and inflationary.

[so.cal.fan]

Exactly Ely....that's why the government will do it....they have been trying to stimulate inflation....haven't done it yet.

I agree with Robert that there will be some challenges with state taxes.
I live in California.......where we are taxed and then some!

Still....our tax system is horrible, they need to fix it.
You think all these 1%ers are going to stand for a big increase?
No, they will not, they can afford teams of tax attorneys to get around them.

[anotherCAfan]

Still....our tax system is horrible, they need to fix it.
You think all these 1%ers are going to stand for a big increase?
No, they will not, they can afford teams of tax attorneys to get around them.
Keep the current system and lower every tax proportionally by 25%.

Obviously, spending must be cut way more to balance things.

[HUSKER55]

That VAT might just be the answer: for my point of view let us assume a 10% VAT.

Spend $800 at the Ritz and the tax is $80 for their hamburger.
McDonald's is $0.10. Rich pay for their benefits

People on the low-end of the economy will need a refund.

Now the VAT:
The government will issue you a card with a secret ID. Your SS# is your ID to the gov. This time your fingerprint is on the card.

Can't get a refund without a card.
Can't get a card unless you are a citizen.
Can't vote unless you have a card.
Criminals lose their card because they showed no respect four our country.

There might be some benefits.

[Robert Goren]

That VAT might just be the answer: for my point of view let us assume a 10% VAT.

Spend $800 at the Ritz and the tax is $80 for their hamburger.
McDonald's is $0.10. Rich pay for their benefits

People on the low-end of the economy will need a refund.

Now the VAT:
The government will issue you a card with a secret ID. Your SS# is your ID to the gov. This time your fingerprint is on the card.

Can't get a refund without a card.
Can't get a card unless you are a citizen.
Can't vote unless you have a card.
Criminals lose their card because they showed no respect four our country.

There might be some benefits. Most corservatives go nuts when you tell them that that have a national id card, but it is ok to force everybody else but them to have one. At least what I have seen.

[Tom]

The next Aeroflot flight to Moscow leaves 9am tomorrow.

You can have din din with Vladimir Putin, Gerard Depardeau, and Bridgett Bardot and toast to how horrible the tax heavy West is.

Another Stoli, please. :lol:

When do you back to school?
How long off do they give 3rd grade for the holidays these days?

[Valuist]

Yup, you guys really have it covered with a VAT.

Just curious, how does a place like, oh, NYC that has roughly an 8% sales tax, cope with a VAT?

Lets see, Umm I go out to eat to an average place in NYC, dinner is $25.00 + VAT+Sales tax+tip...

Oh yeah, that'll REALLY stimulate the economy. :rolleyes:

You must've overlooked the part about ELIMINATING all personal income taxes. That wouldn't have any positive effect, now would it?? :rolleyes:

BTW, areas like NYC and Chicago with their oppressive local taxes would either have to change, or watch residents move out. And instead of going out to eat in NYC or Chicago, go out away from the city. No tears will be shed for either town.

[so.cal.fan]

Don't forget to add California...especially Los Angeles.
We are taxed and taxed and then taxed again, for everything.

[TJDave]

I think most believe a VAT is simply a national sales tax. There's far more to it. It's a tax on every level of production and the paper trail that goes with it. Mexico has a VAT and with it have turned theivery into high art.

[newtothegame]

You must've overlooked the part about ELIMINATING all personal income taxes. That wouldn't have any positive effect, now would it?? :rolleyes:

BTW, areas like NYC and Chicago with their oppressive local taxes would either have to change, or watch residents move out. And instead of going out to eat in NYC or Chicago, go out away from the city. No tears will be shed for either town.
You know the funny part of this,,,,You would think those liberal bastions of this country would be the "gems" of the world. I mean they have HUGE populations and some of the highest tax rates around. Surely they must have the greatest of everything with all that revenue!!! Other places, with less population and less revenue must be terribly horrible to live in.....:lol:

[soupan]

You must've overlooked the part about ELIMINATING all personal income taxes. That wouldn't have any positive effect, now would it?? :rolleyes:

BTW, areas like NYC and Chicago with their oppressive local taxes would either have to change, or watch residents move out. And instead of going out to eat in NYC or Chicago, go out away from the city. No tears will be shed for either town.

Their taxes are SOOOOO oppressive, the business climate is SOOOOOO anti, the crime is SOOOOOO rampant, it's SOOOO expensive to live.

But 11 million people seem very willing to live there.

Val,

I don't know where you live, I really could care less. I've lived in both New York and Chicago and the production of it's inhabitants is what makes this country tick. Funny how I'd bet the rest of the country likes the revenue generated in those cities for the rest of the USA. Where does the money for our high tech Military come from, the Idaho potato fairy?
Or tell me guys like NEWTOTHEGAME, how much in federal resources do the cajun restaurants and Jazz clubs in the most corrupt state in the Union contribute to the country's overall well being?

Yes, you would shed a tear. Your life might depend on it.

[Actor]

A question about VAT.

You pay a tax on the value added. Right?

So if you buy a widget from Acme Hardware for $10, and Acme bought it wholesale for $6, then you pay a percentage of the "value added": $4. Meaning, in effect, that Acme has to tell you how much they paid for it. Right? :confused:

I don't see Acme wanting to do that. :rolleyes: I don't see anyone who sells anything at a marked up price wanting to divulge what the "value added" is. So I don't see the retail industry getting behind this law.

[newtothegame]

Their taxes are SOOOOO oppressive, the business climate is SOOOOOO anti, the crime is SOOOOOO rampant, it's SOOOO expensive to live.

But 11 million people seem very willing to live there.

Val,

I don't know where you live, I really could care less. I've lived in both New York and Chicago and the production of it's inhabitants is what makes this country tick. Funny how I'd bet the rest of the country likes the revenue generated in those cities for the rest of the USA. Where does the money for our high tech Military come from, the Idaho potato fairy?
Or tell me guys like NEWTOTHEGAME, how much in federal resources do the cajun restaurants and Jazz clubs in the most corrupt state in the Union contribute to the country's overall well being?

Yes, you would shed a tear. Your life might depend on it.
If you really want to go down this road we can......
First off, each and every state brings something to the table.
How much oil and natural gas does NY produce? Yeah I was thinking not that much in relation to Louisiana. Corrupt you say?? Well you wont get a huge argument from me there but, in relation to Illinois??? Come on, not even you can defend that state...I have lived there too. That's why I now reside in Southern Louisiana versus there.......(not to mention the winters are a lot more to my taste in the south).
Crime rates? Yeah I will take where I live versus Chicago any day of the week and twice on Sunday's. And, just so you don't think I live in some nice plush all white city....I am in a suburb of New Orleans and would gladly take it over the windy city any day of the week.
Point is, I am not the one who claimed all these great things in relation to the tax rates of those wonderful :rolleyes: states. If you all have the highest populations, the highest tax rates, wouldn't it seem reasonable that all that revenue would make those the greatest cities in the U.S?
Look at Los Angeles, another fine establishment of a city. You can keep em all as far as I am concerned......
I will take my corrupt little "poor" state any day of the week! :lol:

[therussmeister]

VAT could be included in the price. You wouldn't know how much VAT is, so you couldn't calculate how much ACME paid for it. Furthermore, I think the majority of the population already knows ACME is including a considerable markup on their items. They are not naive enough to think ACME is a non-profit organization, and if they don't like ACME's markup what could they do about it? Buy their widgets somewhere else? Very likely for about the same price and same markup.

[newtothegame]

Hmmm and on that corrupt comment.......
Seems Louisiana is ranked better then New York....go figure! lol

http://open.salon.com/blog/sb4justice/2012/03/19/georgia_ranked_the_most_corrupt_state_out_of_all_5 0_states

[JustRalph]

All excellent points. We've had this discussion before. The states that call themselves conservative yet take more than they produce should be ashamed. If you talk to their Governors they will tell you that they are only playing within the system as demand by the Feds. They always quote the highway bill and welfare rules set at the Federal level. I don't buy it completely.

Some of that is true, and you can see it in two examples. The battle over 55 mph speed limits in the 90‘s. the Feds threatened to cut off highway funds. It was an issue of controlling the purse strings. Some states gave in. They were states that absolutely had to have the highway funds. Some fought the threats and Congress never actually cut all the funds off at any level that interfered with any large programs.

These states are still held hostage today. They are forced to send it in, but they have very little control over where it goes when it comes back out. Many States don't deserve to have a say at all. You mention LA. They are a prime example. A quick Google search reveals that LA gets back 1.40 for every dollar they send in. An average of 10k per resident. After Katrina they were getting back 16k per resident. It should be interesting to see how that compares with Sandy in a few years.

I am very much against these hurricane handouts. But that's another subject.

The 2nd example is the latest welfare rules changes. Obammy changes the work requirements with the stroke of a pen. States that bitched were threatened with having funds cut off or court action by the AG. It's all in the name of control. They do the same thing with FAA funds, Airports etc. You want the money, play ball by their rules. When you are the big dog you can set the rules. The blue states are getting ripped off, but they are lately starting to pay for other blue states like Ohio and New Mexico.

I submit that WV-Alaska-LA and the Dakota's probably keep their mouth shut for a reason. Kentucky too. They get almost 2 bucks back for every dollar they send in. Missippi gets more than 2 bucks back for every buck. It should be an embarrassment to those states. But then again, it starting to change. Some blue states are getting more back too. NM-OH- etc. The Feds like it this way.

How the citizens in upstate NY feel about it, I bet is different. In places like Malone, Massena or Oneida, where they are the ass end of a state that is taxing them to death. These people should be screaming from the roof tops. But that state is controlled by organized crime and politicians that pass control down from generation to generation. It's a different country. The borders just happen to be open.

This is why some red states should be screaming more, like Texas. They only lose about 3 cents on the dollar, in spite of the huge influx of illegals. Texas has the right the bitch. But not many others.









Their taxes are SOOOOO oppressive, the business climate is SOOOOOO anti, the crime is SOOOOOO rampant, it's SOOOO expensive to live.

But 11 million people seem very willing to live there.

Val,

I don't know where you live, I really could care less. I've lived in both New York and Chicago and the production of it's inhabitants is what makes this country tick. Funny how I'd bet the rest of the country likes the revenue generated in those cities for the rest of the USA. Where does the money for our high tech Military come from, the Idaho potato fairy?
Or tell me guys like NEWTOTHEGAME, how much in federal resources do the cajun restaurants and Jazz clubs in the most corrupt state in the Union contribute to the country's overall well being?

Yes, you would shed a tear. Your life might depend on it.

[menifee]

A VAT is not simply a national sales tax. It is a tax on value added to a service or product throughout the stages of production. Because of that it's true cost can be hidden from the tax payer and they really do not know how much tax they are paying and how it impacts the price of the product or service they are purchasing. Say the VAT is 5%. They might be purchasing a product for a $1.00 and think they are only paying 5 cents in tax. But the product has been taxed so many times to final production that it is really only worth 70 cents and the buyer has no knowledge. There would be no realistic way of disclosing that information to the end consumer. That is why I am strongly against it.

In a lot of ways it is like takeout in horse racing. How much do you think handle would go down if every handicapper had knowledge of the takeout on his or her bets? Or, alternatively what if the track deducted the takeout right away and handed the bettor a revised ticket reflecting the true value of his wager. Tracks would close. Like takeout, VAT hides the true cost to the taxpayer.

[Actor]

VAT could be included in the price. You wouldn't know how much VAT is, so you couldn't calculate how much ACME paid for it.So the tax would be paid by ACME, not by the customer. In effect the tax is a tax on ACME's markup, i.e., on ACME's profits. Isn't that called an income tax? Don't we already have that? Wouldn't it be simpler to just raise income tax rates on businesses?

Furthermore, I think the majority of the population already knows ACME is including a considerable markup on their items. They are not naive enough to think ACME is a non-profit organization, and if they don't like ACME's markup what could they do about it? Buy their widgets somewhere else? Very likely for about the same price and same markup.True enough. Still I don't think ACME wants this to be general knowledge. Suppose ACME has a sweetheart deal with WidgetWholesale and other retailers are paying $7. This means other retailers can only add $3 markup if they are to match ACME's price. Could there be lawsuits. I still don't see businesses getting behind this idea.

[Actor]

You must've overlooked the part about ELIMINATING all personal income taxes.Yeah! That'll happen. :rolleyes:

When Hell freezes over.

[Tom]

It is 100% certain Acme will pass whatever the tax is to the consumers.
As they should.

[therussmeister]

So the tax would be paid by ACME, not by the customer. In effect the tax is a tax on ACME's markup, i.e., on ACME's profits. Isn't that called an income tax? Don't we already have that? Wouldn't it be simpler to just raise income tax rates on businesses?

True enough. Still I don't think ACME wants this to be general knowledge. Suppose ACME has a sweetheart deal with WidgetWholesale and other retailers are paying $7. This means other retailers can only add $3 markup if they are to match ACME's price. Could there be lawsuits. I still don't see businesses getting behind this idea.
No ACME wouldn't be paying the tax, the consumer would be, the base cost and tax just wouldn't be itemized. Just like admissions and concessions at many entertainment venues, the listed price contains the sales tax. Or cigarettes and alcohol have taxes that are already included in the price.

For the record, it may be that if income taxes were eliminated and replaced with VAT, corporate income taxes might too be eliminated. Indeed there is a hypothesis, (of which I am very skeptical), that, with the elimination of corporate taxes, the cost of doing business would decline, and these savings, passed on to the consumer, means the retail price of merchandise would remain about the same as now even with VAT added.

[Actor]

Easiest way to simplify the tax code. Institute a VAT and eliminate all personal income taxes.

5% food
10% gas
20% all other purchases

If you consume a lot, you pay more. In good times, people will pay more. In bad times, people will pay less...The problem is bad times are when the government needs money the most.

[Actor]

No ACME wouldn't be paying the tax, the consumer would be, the base cost and tax just wouldn't be itemized. Just like admissions and concessions at many entertainment venues, the listed price contains the sales tax. Or cigarettes and alcohol have taxes that are already included in the price.Ultimately all taxes paid by a business are passed on to the consumer.

For the record, it may be that if income taxes were eliminated and replaced with VAT, corporate income taxes might too be eliminated. Indeed there is a hypothesis, (of which I am very skeptical), that, with the elimination of corporate taxes, the cost of doing business would decline, and these savings, passed on to the consumer, means the retail price of merchandise would remain about the same as now even with VAT added.That actually makes sense, but I share your skepticism.

My problem with VAT is that it seems awfully complex. It's as though somebody said "We need to make sales tax as complicated as income tax." I don't see any benefit from this increased complexity.

Accountants would either hate it (more work) or love it (more job security).

[Valuist]

The problem is bad times are when the government needs money the most.

In bad times, the PEOPLE need the money the most.

[Robert Goren]

Ultimately all taxes paid by a business are passed on to the consumer.

That actually makes sense, but I share your skepticism.

My problem with VAT is that it seems awfully complex. It's as though somebody said "We need to make sales tax as complicated as income tax." I don't see any benefit from this increased complexity.

Accountants would either hate it (more work) or love it (more job security).Conservatives don't get this. They seem to think businesses and businessmen actual pay them when in fact they merely a conduit.

[Actor]

In bad times, the PEOPLE need the money the most.It's the unemployed that need the money during bad times, and since there are not enough jobs they are going to get it from the government, whether you like it or not.

During periods of high unemployment (sort of the definition of bad times) tax revenues drop but government expenses remain the same or increase. Bad times does not make it cheaper to keep the Ronald Reagan at sea.

[Actor]

Conservatives don't get this. They seem to think businesses and businessmen actual pay them when in fact they merely a conduit.And they would do a better job of selling their point of view if they pointed this out to the electorate, but instead they just whine about how much corporate taxes are screwing the rich.

[Tom]

Conservatives don't get this. They seem to think businesses and businessmen actual pay them when in fact they merely a conduit.


Duh.
You going after mostie's record for nonsense posts?
OF COURSE we understand that.
What do you suppose happens to sales when prices go up?

[soupan]

In bad times, the PEOPLE need the money the most.


Yes, and the people of Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Egypt, (etc etc)
thank you very much.

Hang on, my phone is ringing..............

It's someone who claims his name is Abdul Al-Basari... he told me to tell all you right wingers to GET THE F**K back to work now and stop dillying on the computer.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[soupan]

Oh, and he told me to tell the Monkey guy if he outsources some of those jobs he claims he creates (since he's such a "job creator"), he'll save lots of tax dollars and make more profit.
Plus he can continue to break that union!!!!

[JustRalph]

Oh, and he told me to tell the Monkey guy if he outsources some of those jobs he claims he creates (since he's such a "job creator"), he'll save lots of tax dollars and make more profit.
Plus he can continue to break that union!!!!

Fell off the " I'm not a troll" wagon huh?

[Tom]

Fell off the " I'm not a troll" wagon huh?

A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

[so.cal.fan]

Good ones, JR and Tom! :lol: